Results 1 to 32 of 32
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    23

    Bike shop vs doing it yourself

    Hey guys. Just a super noobie silly type question..

    I have some skill with maintaining a mountainbike, although havnt in a long while. I currently dont even have a torque wrench at my disposal. I also live in a tiny apartment which im technically not even alowed a bike up here!

    I could figure a way to maintain my old bike, however i feel like a professional whose been working on mtb for years will definetly do a cleaner and more thourough job.

    I guess my main question... Is it worth spending ..whatever it costs for a full rehaul of an older bike? ( i wanna say 100-300$) or do bike shops generally overcharge for simple tasks. I know this varries a lot from shop to shop... Lets just say they have a good reputation and wont sell me uneeded maintence.

    Do some of you that work on your bikes still get your bikes looked over at a local shop from time to time? Im trying to justify if its worth the money or should i just hunker down, buy some decent tools and look up tutorials online.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: LyNx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    23,584
    How old is the bike? What exactly is wrong with it specifically? How much do you like this bike? What did this bike cost when new? I'd consider all these questions before taking it to a shop, as might just need a very basic tune, that you could do yourself - new chain, lube bearings, adjust shift cables etc. I'd personally call the shop I was thinking of using and tell them what bike it is you have and exactly what's wrong with it and ask for a quote on how much it would cost, then go from there.
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mack_turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,596
    There is no way to answer your question with limited info and without seeing the bike.

    I think most people can learn to fix their own bikes, that just takes patience and taking the time to read up.

    Tools to work on your bike cost money, but it's essential to own basics like metric wrenches and a pump to make adjustments.

    What you're paying a bike shop for is the skill to do the job RIGHT and the experience to diagnose the problem. I worked full time in shops for about five years and my diagnostics skills went from zero to 9 out of 10 in that time. You'd be amazed by the amount of stuff you don't know about bikes until you work on half a dozen different bikes every day for several years.

    The question is: do you have the patience to learn, the funds to spend on tools, and the eye/ mind to diagnose it? I've seen people "fix" their bikes only to cause further, expensive damage in the process.

    Overcharge? That's subjective. Bike shops have to charge enough to keep the lights on and pay a competitive but meager wage to their employees. No one is getting rich working on bikes. If you think they charge too much, go buy $5K in tools and do it all yourself.

    When I got a bike in the shop that needed a lot of work, I would always take my time diagnosing it and give the customer at least two options. Sometimes a full "overhaul" is the most cost-effective. That means stripping the bike down to the bare frame removing everything but the headset cups, repacking all bearings, replacing cables and housing, deep cleaning and reinstalling everything, and making the bike as close to new as possible. That's a four-hour + job. $200-300 makes it a bargain.

  4. #4
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24,759
    You've got kindof a particular situation. This is really more about your living situation than the bike when it comes down to it.

    Charges for things like overhauls and tunes are pretty much 100% labor. Or very nearly so. They're based on a fairly typical amount of time to complete the job at the general "shop rate" for labor charges. Compared to other labor service industries, that "shop rate" for bike shops tends to be quite a bit less.

    Sure, you can do it yourself, but you've gotta have the tools and you've gotta have some way of dealing with and addressing the inevitable mess you're going to create. Dirt that falls off the bike is one thing and easy enough to deal with. Grease and grime, OTOH, is a different scenario. Further, doing the job efficiently kinda requires a workstand.

    I do almost all service work on my bikes myself. There are a few things that I take it to a shop for. Sometimes because I need to (for example, my dropper post is not user serviceable, and it has to be sent back to the manufacturer for service from a dealer). Sometimes because I don't want to mess with it at that particular time (usually my own time constraints, or occasionally space constraints). About a year and a half ago, I was living in an epically tiny apartment for a few months after moving to a new city, while I searched for houses. I HAVE all the tools to do my own service. But I simply didn't have the space to do any of that. I had 5 bikes in the "laundry room" of the apartment (no appliances in there, just bikes) and no room for anything else. Storage was all I was going to manage. I had a little toolbox with a few minor things in it, but I took the bikes to a shop for anything else.

    Unfortunately, this is one of the drawbacks of apartment living.

  5. #5
    Magically Delicious
    Reputation: Cleared2land's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    7,586
    The OP was fortunate enough to get some thorough and well addressed replies here.

    Performing bicycle maintenance is a somewhat elementary mechanical skill, but it does entail some details that need to be well thought out before you begin. Planning out your maintenance event regarding what you expect to accomplish, how you will get that done, tools needed and a reference (manuals/torques, YouTube, etc.) for all of the needed technical information necessary to complete your task will be a requirement.

    While this might seem to be a daunting task, you can take each task, one step at a time. The pride of completing simple achievements can be a driving force to complete the larger project.

    Take your time. Understand the task at hand and ensure that you have everything that you will need immediately at hand to complete the task will make this much easier. Do not rush anything. If you get stuck or unable to work something through, then you can seek outside advice. YouTube is a wonderful reference device.

    I perform all of my own maintenance, repairs and builds and I have never submitted my bike to an LBS for any reasons. That's just a personal preference. YMMV
    A bad day of cycling is better than a good day at work

    Work Truck - Dassault Falcon 7X

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: One Pivot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7,986
    After getting burned over and over and over, at multiple shops in about a 200 mile radius, I gave up on shop work and learned to do everything myself.

    With minimal investment, I'm better equipped to handle bicycle repairs than 9/10 shops.

    Honestly, I would say non-suspension bike repairs are extremely simple. Easy enough that any semi handy person with limited experience could figure it out without much fuss. The most critical part of non-wheel non-suspension repairs on a bike is care. Is the guy at the LBS going to care enough to put in another 15 seconds to get that adjustment just right? I know I will, in my experience they wont.

    Wheels are harder, but doable. Most cyclists wont go this far, but its not all that difficult once you get some hands on experience building and repairing wheels. If you're the kind of person who can fix their own car at home, you can build wheels.

    Suspension work takes some specialty stuff and it can be awkward. Still entirely doable at home. Most shops cant figure out suspension, or wont bother trying.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    60
    I would feel very comfortable having my bike worked on at the best local shop in town, itís so competitive here I canít imagine the mechanic not doing a good job and getting it just right. However, I do virtually all of my own work, since I am retired and have a garage and full tool setup. If I lived in an apartment thatís not even supposed to have a bike in it, I would let a shop handle it. Some shops post a price list for work. They would all give you a verbal quote.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    12,458
    Doing your own work is necessary for riding out often miles from the car park when something starts to happen. You notice it sooner and maybe avoid a problem so you don't have to walk out for miles. You should want to be able to help yourself. Bike shops don't make trailside service calls. After a while of doing your own maintenance you don't have problems because you've already got everything above the level where things fail.

    So learn now by spending the money you save on bike shop labor on tools and new parts.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: wickerman1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    3,344
    I work in a shop as a service manager and head mechanic.
    We charge 69.95 for a rune up which covers adjustments of all components, make sure no play in bearings and running smoothly, make sure bike is safe. Parts and install extra.
    This is what I do. If said bike needs a chain and cogs, and brake pads or cables for said bike, I remove the tune up price because intall of the parts fee incl. adjustment. I will also quickly go over the rest of bike to make sure its ok.
    I recently worked for another shop, where the district manager specifically said to the service writers, a ninety dollar tune should cost mininmum 110-120. He said EVERY BIKE NEEDS A NEW CHAIN REGARDLESS. He was very adoment about always ypselling and lying to customers about what their bikes needed when clearly didnít need it. I canít work like that. Calling a customer because he had a pitted cone on his wheel, when the hub was perfectly fine, and telling him we dont sell 2 dollar cones so he has to spend another 175 on a new wheel. Hence after enough complaints, he and a few others from the company were terminated immediately. Because a shop/bike brand has a huge name, doesnt mean all their outlets are run by honest people. Just keep an ear open if you do decide to take it to a shop.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mack_turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,596
    Quote Originally Posted by wickerman1 View Post
    I work in a shop as a service manager and head mechanic.
    We charge 69.95 for a rune up which covers adjustments of all components, make sure no play in bearings and running smoothly, make sure bike is safe. Parts and install extra.
    This is what I do. If said bike needs a chain and cogs, and brake pads or cables for said bike, I remove the tune up price because intall of the parts fee incl. adjustment. I will also quickly go over the rest of bike to make sure its ok.
    I recently worked for another shop, where the district manager specifically said to the service writers, a ninety dollar tune should cost mininmum 110-120. He said EVERY BIKE NEEDS A NEW CHAIN REGARDLESS. He was very adoment about always ypselling and lying to customers about what their bikes needed when clearly didnít need it. I canít work like that. Calling a customer because he had a pitted cone on his wheel, when the hub was perfectly fine, and telling him we dont sell 2 dollar cones so he has to spend another 175 on a new wheel. Hence after enough complaints, he and a few others from the company were terminated immediately. Because a shop/bike brand has a huge name, doesnt mean all their outlets are run by honest people. Just keep an ear open if you do decide to take it to a shop.
    Sounds like my experience working for one month at Performance.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: fredcook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    236
    Quote Originally Posted by unkiind View Post
    Do some of you that work on your bikes still get your bikes looked over at a local shop from time to time? Im trying to justify if its worth the money or should i just hunker down, buy some decent tools and look up tutorials online.
    I work on my own bikes. I used to to take them in once and a while to support LBS's, intermingle with others, etc. But seems most trips to one shop or another resulted in me redoing something. Maybe I'm too anal or picky. A possible exception to doing my own work might be if the repair is warranty related.

    For me, wrenching a bike is simple. On a scale of 1-10 (10 the hardest), I'd say a 2. I learned it all myself over the years, and it's easy to keep current. But, I am mechanically inclined, and have been working on cars as a hobby (tune-ups to ground up blueprint rebuilds) for over 40 years. Been messing with bikes longer that that... starting with banana seat bikes. Dang I'm getting old. Bike specific tools really aren't that expensive, unless you insist on 100% of the tools coming from a certain blue labeled bike tool maker. Certainly nothing wrong with them, but there are more than capable options at half the cost.

    I enjoy tooling my bikes as much as I like riding them. It's part of the hobby/sport for me.
    I don't work on my bikes myself to save money. Sometimes, I find myself staring at the bikes in the garage trying to find something that "needs" tweaking or tuning when they really don't. Another thing I like about doing my own work, is that usually what ever needs to be done, I can do myself in less time than it takes me to drive to and from a shop. And that doesn't include leaving the bike at a shop for however long it takes the shop to get to it (which can sometimes be days).

    To each his own. Do what you like and are comfortable with.
    You didn't quit riding because you're old, you're old because you quit riding.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    60
    This thread has morphed from ďshould I work on my bike in a tiny apartment where I am not even supposed to have a bikeĒ, to ďdo I trust bike shopsĒ. One thing is for sure, those like me that see maintaining your own bike view it as part of being a cyclist. It is very satisfying, not necessarily about not trusting the LBS all the time. Now, about not having a garage ....

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mack_turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    8,596
    Put a tarp, paper, painting cloth, etc down on the floor before working on your bike. That should prevent staining the carpet. A work stand is REALLY nice to have, even for simple repairs. I lived in small apartments for over a decade with multiple bikes and never had a problem.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: plummet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    461
    I do everything other than wheel true and rear shock service. Or if theres something i dont have a specialised tool for. Maybe a hub rebuild or something.


    But it comes down to your experience and skill level. bikes arent that hard. It usually just undoing/lubing/doing up. Tweek adjust stops, lube again.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: plummet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    461
    PS. You can maintain a bike anywhere. It doesnt need to be dont inside. Some times a vice is handy though.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: sturge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    928
    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    I work on my own bikes. I used to to take them in once and a while to support LBS's, intermingle with others, etc. But seems most trips to one shop or another resulted in me redoing something. Maybe I'm too anal or picky. A possible exception to doing my own work might be if the repair is warranty related.

    For me, wrenching a bike is simple. On a scale of 1-10 (10 the hardest), I'd say a 2. I learned it all myself over the years, and it's easy to keep current. But, I am mechanically inclined, and have been working on cars as a hobby (tune-ups to ground up blueprint rebuilds) for over 40 years. Been messing with bikes longer that that... starting with banana seat bikes. Dang I'm getting old. Bike specific tools really aren't that expensive, unless you insist on 100% of the tools coming from a certain blue labeled bike tool maker. Certainly nothing wrong with them, but there are more than capable options at half the cost.

    I enjoy tooling my bikes as much as I like riding them. It's part of the hobby/sport for me.
    I don't work on my bikes myself to save money. Sometimes, I find myself staring at the bikes in the garage trying to find something that "needs" tweaking or tuning when they really don't. Another thing I like about doing my own work, is that usually what ever needs to be done, I can do myself in less time than it takes me to drive to and from a shop. And that doesn't include leaving the bike at a shop for however long it takes the shop to get to it (which can sometimes be days).

    To each his own. Do what you like and are comfortable with.
    ^^ Perfectly stated...Me too!^^
    12 Santa Cruz Heckler
    18 Kona Process 153 AL/DL (27.5)...

  17. #17
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24,759
    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    PS. You can maintain a bike anywhere. It doesnt need to be dont inside. Some times a vice is handy though.
    OP is in Canada. Not sure he wants to wrench on bikes outside this time of year.

    I suppose if you want to set up a shop to wrench on your own bikes, you could rent a storage unit and set one up in there. Get a climate controlled one and you don't have to wrench in the cold (or use a propane heater to wrench during cold weather). Problem with that would be the distance from where you actually live. You don't exactly have 100% control over that. Especially if your area uses lots of storage units. I know where I live, lots of folks have small homes without much storage, and since it's an outdoor town, a fair number of people do rent storage units specifically for their outdoor gear. Consequently, it can be quite hard to find a storage unit. I needed one for a few months while I was in transition, and it took awhile to find availability. When I did, it was a half hour drive from my apartment (though once I managed to buy a house, I was lucky enough that it was only about 10min away).

    Plus, you'll have some issues with things like water availability and electricity. Not insurmountable, and thankfully not necessary for every wrench job on your bike, but stuff you'll have to deal with.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Lone Rager's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    5,101
    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    ... Some times a vice is handy though.
    I have a number of them.
    Do the math.

  19. #19
    Magically Delicious
    Reputation: Cleared2land's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    7,586
    Quote Originally Posted by mack_turtle View Post
    A work stand is REALLY nice to have, even for simple repairs.
    Many years ago and for many years, I worked without a bike stand. I thought of it as a luxury device that I really didn't need.

    I was WRONG, it's not a luxury item. It is a tool that will redefine how you work on and maintain your bike. After you get one, you will wonder why you didn't get one sooner. It is as important as a good set of hex wrenches and you will use it on a very regular basis.
    A bad day of cycling is better than a good day at work

    Work Truck - Dassault Falcon 7X

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    60
    Heck, we had a homeless guy running a bike chop shop in the woods where his camp was, in a really popular public park here in Bellingham. He didnít even need an apartment.

  21. #21
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24,759
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleared2land View Post
    Many years ago and for many years, I worked without a bike stand. I thought of it as a luxury device that I really didn't need.

    I was WRONG, it's not a luxury item. It is a tool that will redefine how you work on and maintain your bike. After you get one, you will wonder why you didn't get one sooner. It is as important as a good set of hex wrenches and you will use it on a very regular basis.
    No kidding. I don't know how she did it, but my mother found one at a garage sale over 15yrs ago. The stand itself is a Park that might be over 20yrs old. At this point, I view it as more essential than a set of metric hex wrenches, honestly.

    One of these days, I'm going to get a newer workstand that I can fold up and take with me when camping. Might just get the base for the workstand on my Kuat NV 2.0. I've already repurposed a toolbox and a few duplicate tools to use as my travel bike toolkit.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    60
    I just got one of those Kuat bases. Works like a champ.

  23. #23
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24,759
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyAsheville View Post
    I just got one of those Kuat bases. Works like a champ.
    good to hear. I know it's not supposed to work that way, but I have a rack attachment from an older NV rack (wife got rear ended last year with that rack when the stand attachment was in the garage) that I'd like to try to repurpose, too. Maybe just as a supplemental stand in the garage bolted to the workbench or something.

  24. #24
    slow
    Reputation: sgltrak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    5,706
    OP, I agree with Harold that your situation is more about living and work space than about the shop. It is a good idea to learn to work on your own bike, so if you don't currently have the space maybe you could look at other location options:

    1. Years ago when I had my shop, I had a work station with tools and stand that I rented out on an hourly basis for those who didn't have a place to work on their bikes. Maybe there is something similar in your town.
    2. My current town has a bike co-op at which I think you can rent a work station on an hourly basis. Maybe your town has somethign like this.
    3. Some of my friends who don't have a place to work on their bikes, or who don't have the right tools will make arrangements to come over and use my tools and stand in my garage. Do you have a friend with tools and space?
    Last edited by sgltrak; 1 Week Ago at 04:20 PM.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: White7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    553
    I say do as much work on your own bike as you can,if there are things you don't know, learn how,,acquire the tools per job/task over time

    I feel it's VERY important to know the ins and outs of your bike,,when something goes wrong on the trail you'll know how to deal with it,,if you don't know how to fix it ,it could be a very long walk sometimes

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation: One Pivot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    7,986
    I had a VERY small studio in college. Couldnt even fully raise my arms or I would hit the ceiling! I kept and maintained a FS mountain bike and road bike inside. No stand. Stands are nice and all, but in no way necessary. If you cant afford it or cant spare the space for one, dont sweat it, you can still fully maintain your own bike.

    If you can afford it and can spare the space, I would absolutely recommend getting a stand! It makes everything so much easier. By a lot. I wouldnt give mine up, but I'm spoiled and have a dedicated 2-car sized bike garage now

  27. #27
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24,759
    I did some small jobs to my bikes back when I lived in a dorm in college. But there are plenty of things I wouldn't bother with if I didn't have a stand of some kind (there are smaller, simpler stands that can suffice for basic maintenance work - you don't necessarily need a great big one), and some jobs I wouldn't bother with if I didn't have a larger, more stable stand.

    A big part of working on bikes, though, is the ability to accommodate dirt and chemicals that drop from the bike, or overspray, or to be able to bang on something with a hammer, or pry on something. It starts to get to be a real pain in the ass when you're having to protect the flooring or the furniture. Plus you need space to store those tools and whatnot.

    And if OP isn't supposed to have bikes in the apt anyway, he'd have to take extra care not to make messes that have the potential to leave permanent stains that will come back to bite him later, when there's the possibility of losing the security deposit and/or being charged more for that stuff after moving out.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation: fredcook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    236
    The more I think about the "not allowed to have bikes in the apartment" thing... the more I think I'd focus on moving before anything else.
    You didn't quit riding because you're old, you're old because you quit riding.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: armii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    737
    Hook up with a local riding group, there is almost always someone that does all their own maintenance, and even wrenches just for fun, that might help out.

  30. #30
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    24,759
    Quote Originally Posted by fredcook View Post
    The more I think about the "not allowed to have bikes in the apartment" thing... the more I think I'd focus on moving before anything else.
    yeah, that'd be on my priority list for sure. Where else do they expect you to put your bike? Do they expect you to "lock" up a commuter bike outside all the time so it can become a pile of garbage in about a month? Nope.

    The replacement cost of just ONE of my 6 bikes would be more than what the apt would charge to repair any stains in the carpet or scuffs from the tires. And if the complex allows pets of ANY KIND, then I'd tell 'em to f*ck off.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Corkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by unkiind View Post
    Hey guys. Just a super noobie silly type question..

    I have some skill with maintaining a mountainbike, although havnt in a long while. I currently dont even have a torque wrench at my disposal. I also live in a tiny apartment which im technically not even alowed a bike up here!

    I could figure a way to maintain my old bike, however i feel like a professional whose been working on mtb for years will definetly do a cleaner and more thourough job.

    I guess my main question... Is it worth spending ..whatever it costs for a full rehaul of an older bike? ( i wanna say 100-300$) or do bike shops generally overcharge for simple tasks. I know this varries a lot from shop to shop... Lets just say they have a good reputation and wont sell me uneeded maintence.

    Do some of you that work on your bikes still get your bikes looked over at a local shop from time to time? Im trying to justify if its worth the money or should i just hunker down, buy some decent tools and look up tutorials online.
    CRC is great because they run monthyl maintenance and repair workshops for like £22 over here. It's like 10 hours and you learn pretty much everything you need to know to maintain and repair your bike, You bring your own bike to the workshop and they go through eveything with you, super handy to do.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: White7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    553
    Quote Originally Posted by Corkin View Post
    CRC is great because they run monthyl maintenance and repair workshops for like £22 over here. It's like 10 hours and you learn pretty much everything you need to know to maintain and repair your bike, You bring your own bike to the workshop and they go through eveything with you, super handy to do.
    Great idea,didn't think of that,,Here in Sacramento we have the"Sacramento Bicycle Kitchen" ,,you can work on your bike(DIY) with the shop tools and they have volunteers that are willing to help you out,,all donation based,,

    You may have something like that in your area

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 29
    Last Post: 08-02-2016, 09:58 PM
  2. Ever push yourself or ride so hard you make yourself "sick"?
    By JookupVandetti in forum Riding Passion
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 08-18-2015, 06:55 AM
  3. Believe in Yourself and You too can Ride a Bike! - [oo]<
    By highdelll in forum Riding Passion
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 02-13-2012, 11:22 PM
  4. Do you find yourself doing this
    By Dude in forum Riding Passion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-16-2005, 01:43 PM
  5. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 03-31-2005, 09:27 AM

Members who have read this thread: 170

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.