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  1. #1
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    Phantom sizing help...

    Looking to pick up a Phantom, and am caught between a MED and LRG frame.

    My other rig is a new model Yelli Screamy. size LRG. Love that fit with a 130 fork.

    My goal is to acheive the same fit on the Phantom. Size MED reach on the Phantom is the same as on the size LRG Yelli. But man...that ETT on the size MED Phantom is sooooo short. Making me think I should go for the LRG.

    Thoughts you can offer to sway me in one direction over another? Are the Phantoms sized small-ish?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    The Yelli Screamy has an extremely slack seat angle (71.3). If that works well for you then you could just run your saddle far back in it's rails, or use an offset post to achieve the same thing on a phantom.

    Personally I'd look mose closely at the reach. Basically, when standing out the saddle the medium phantom will feel like your current bike in terms of fit, a large will feel quite a bit longer, but you could offset that with a shorter stem potentially.

    The phantoms are sized bigger than the yelli in terms of reach, which is the number that really matters when riding out the saddle.
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  3. #3
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    Which model are you looking at, the new 2017s or the older 2016s? As BTR said, the STA on the Phantom is super steep, hence for the same Reach it will have a shorter TT. You didn't say what bar/stem combo you are running on your Yelli, if it's anything longer than a 60mm stem, then you could size up on the Phantom and use a shorter stem and as said, like I have to do, use a setback post to get your saddle back, if like me you don't like steep STAs.

    FYI, I have a Paradox and a Phantom, the Paradox is an XL and the Phantom a L because the Reach is basically the same between the 2 sizes. I use a 70mm stem and 785mm wide bar on both bikes, straight post on the Paradox, setback post on the Phantom, because the Paradox has about a 2.5 degree slacker STA than the Phantom, cockpit measures back out to the same. Oh and I'm 6'2.25", 35.25" inseam and matching long arms.

    When I get my new model Phantom I will most likely size up to an XL and drop to a 40mm stem and/or more sweep bar and run a longer than spec'd fork to help slacken back out the STA as it has been steepened for the new models, this will also in effect shorten the Reach up a bit
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  4. #4
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    Thanks for the help, guys. I am looking at the 2016 model for a large, and a 2014 model for the medium.

    I used to own a Paradox...got a size large, and in retrospect should've bought a medium.

    On my current Yelli, I run a 60mm, no rise stem with an 800mm bar. Straight seatpost, though finding that I like the saddle back farther in the rails.

    At this point, I am leaning towards the large Phantom. I LOVE the mint color on the 2014 though...just don;t want to make the wrong decision because of vanity.

  5. #5
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    If that's the case I would definitely say get the Medium.Having owned the Large Paradox, you know what stem/bar you ran on it and how it felt, so basically for the Phantom it's a size up on the Paradox for each size. Being that the Medium Phantom has a 420mm Reach and the Large Paradox had a 403mm Reach, I think the choice would be clear.

    You didn't say how tall you are and while I admit that through age, loss of flexibility and some nagging injuries I probably ride more upright than I really should, at my height the Large fits me with a 60-70mm stem, so anywhere under 5'10" and you'd be looking at a <35mm stem I'd think.

    Quote Originally Posted by badgermtb View Post
    Thanks for the help, guys. I am looking at the 2016 model for a large, and a 2014 model for the medium.

    I used to own a Paradox...got a size large, and in retrospect should've bought a medium.

    On my current Yelli, I run a 60mm, no rise stem with an 800mm bar. Straight seatpost, though finding that I like the saddle back farther in the rails.

    At this point, I am leaning towards the large Phantom. I LOVE the mint color on the 2014 though...just don;t want to make the wrong decision because of vanity.
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  6. #6
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    I am a solid 5'8". And I have bad riding form from years of riding singlespeeds...like my seat WAY up. That usually leaves me towering over the front of the bike.

    I think that is why I generally go with large frames...that extra TT makes me feels less over the bike and more in the bike.

    LyNx...you're killing me with the medium recommendo! :-)

    The Paradox I had was really tall in the standover dept. Ran a 120mm fork, and 710mm bars...it was back in the heyday.

    So...do you think a medium with 1 70mm or 80mm stem, and a setback post would rule?

    Sorry to keep going on about this. I do appreciate the discussion.

  7. #7
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    All I can really say that might give you a better idea is that both my XL Paradox and Large Phantom, feel and fit as similar as you could expect a HT and FS to. At 5'8" unless you had some freakishly long arms, I couldn't see you on a Large Phantom. As for stand over on the Paradox, yeah, on all sizes I think it's too tall, one thing I'd like to see addressed when they're re-done, the Prime/Phantom the other hand have loads of stand over for the sizes, easily let a person your height ride my XL pre-Production Prime and Large Phantom without issue, if that's something you were worrying about.

    Little tid bit, rode my XL PP Prime with a 465mm Reach with a 60mm stem/785mm bar for the 2 years it was my primary ride, then when I got the Phantom swapped everything over and ended up on a 65mm stem for a while and then went to 70mm earlier this year. Earlier this year I built my XL prime back, this time with a 40mm stem and that feel of not quite being able to properly control the front end was completely gone, but in the time I had it I was too stubborn to try a stem that short, hence my considering moving to the XL Phantom.

    Remember that you have to take the stem length you want to use into consideration and don't do like me and rule out a very short stem because you don't only value the DHs. Hope that helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by badgermtb View Post
    I am a solid 5'8". And I have bad riding form from years of riding singlespeeds...like my seat WAY up. That usually leaves me towering over the front of the bike. I think that is why I generally go with large frames...that extra TT makes me feels less over the bike and more in the bike.



    LyNx...you're killing me with the medium recommendo! :-)

    The Paradox I had was really tall in the standover dept. Ran a 120mm fork, and 710mm bars...it was back in the heyday.

    So...do you think a medium with 1 70mm or 80mm stem, and a setback post would rule? Sorry to keep going on about this. I do appreciate the discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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  8. #8
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    badger,

    I'm 5'10", and I'm on a medium Banshee, with a short 35mm stem, saddle biased to the rear of bike. Arms proportional to height.

    I find that this position allows me to have good control of the bike, able to weight the front end enough to carve turns, but still be in good position to climb, and bomb downhill. In the end, fitment is personal, and often governed by riding style, etc, so just consider this's another man's experience/opinion.

    Phantom sizing help...-image.jpg

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    5' 10" and moving up from a M to L. Just got the last laser blue I could find.

    I have owned and liked bikes with reach in the 420-430 range, so that is why I went M. Had it for a year, it works well. Put me on the podium a couple times. Every year I get faster. . .learn more . . . .hit bigger stuff. I demoed a couple bikes at 440+ reach and really liked having the extra room to drive my weight into the front tire. I also dig the stability of a longer wheelbase.

    At 5' 8" you might be pushing a L. Would most def need to run the shortest stem possible.

  10. #10
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    thanks for the photo and additional comments. MED is looking like it might be too small for me. Bummer...I like the look (and price) of the medium. Need a little more cash and i can pull the trigger on the large.

    Again, thank you all. -Bill

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by badgermtb View Post
    I am a solid 5'8". .
    You're a medium, no question IMHO.

    I don't own a phantom, but have owned Primes, Runes and a spitfire, all mediums, all 35-50mm stems. I'm 5'-9". I also previously owned a yelli-screamy, medium, 50mm stem.

    People get used to bikes fitting a certain way, doesn't mean it's right for you. Most all of us can go a size up/down and make it work. I have experimented with that. I've actually found wheelbase to be one of the most crucial numbers. Seat angles and stem lengths can change, but the wheelbase tells how stable the bike will be at speed vs how hard it is to turn. On 29'ers I've found 45.5" WB to be just about perfect. My M prime measured over 46" and on some trails, it felt slow in the corners. I'm on an Evil following w/140 fork now, it's perfect at 45.5". I've had bikes under 45 and they felt squirrely on fast, rough trails. This is all generally speaking. On 27.5" bikes, they turn easier so a little longer is OK (my medium Rune for example).

    Buying based on seat tube length or extension is the worst thing people do. The industry is moving towards 150mm and longer dropper posts, so seat tubes will get shorter. Could you run a 150mm post on a large? I could, but I wouldn't want to.

    Anyways- If I was you- I'd go medium.

  12. #12
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    Hm...I'm 1,86 and ride a L with a 50cm stem...I would recommend M for you as well...but obviously it's a Personal choice...you would definetely need a VERY Short stem...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I use a 70mm stem and 785mm wide bar on both bikes, straight post on the Paradox, setback post on the Phantom, because the Paradox has about a 2.5 degree slacker STA than the Phantom, cockpit measures back out to the same. Oh and I'm 6'2.25", 35.25" inseam and matching long arms.
    The steep seatpost and the need to use setback post also worries me. I have no chance to test ride the Phantom before purchase, so I'm extra careful and compare it's geometry against my current bike.

    Can you please do me a favor and measure the height of your seatpost head and horizontal distance from the centrer of the seatpost head to center of bottom bracket?

  14. #14
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    Best I can give you is this, as accurate as I can get using a level app for my phone, but I'm sure not 100%. Centre of BB to centre of setback saddle clamp is 210mm/8.3" and from centre of BB to back of my WTB PureV 13.25"/336mm. measurement from centre of BB to top of saddle is 31.75"/806mm, saddle is forward of centre of the rails, can push it back about 1cm and I use 180mm cranks.

    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    The steep seatpost and the need to use setback post also worries me. I have no chance to test ride the Phantom before purchase, so I'm extra careful and compare it's geometry against my current bike.

    Can you please do me a favor and measure the height of your seatpost head and horizontal distance from the centrer of the seatpost head to center of bottom bracket?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by badgermtb View Post
    thanks for the photo and additional comments. MED is looking like it might be too small for me. Bummer...I like the look (and price) of the medium. Need a little more cash and i can pull the trigger on the large.

    Again, thank you all. -Bill
    Hey Badger,

    I just got my large built up and unless you have a 31"+ inseam, you're going to have a tough time standing over a large. I'm at 31 and the top tube is RIGHT THERE if you get me.

    I'm gonna echo a few others and say at 5'8" you're a solid M.

    Good news is that Jenson just knocked another couple hundred off their 2016 stock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Best I can give you is this, as accurate as I can get using a level app for my phone, but I'm sure not 100%. Centre of BB to centre of setback saddle clamp is 210mm/8.3" and from centre of BB to back of my WTB PureV 13.25"/336mm. measurement from centre of BB to top of saddle is 31.75"/806mm, saddle is forward of centre of the rails, can push it back about 1cm and I use 180mm cranks.
    Thanks. I saw from your Phantom album that you are using Thomson setback seatpost. According to Thomson website it has 16mm setback. On my current bike the center of the seatpost head is ~225mm back from the BB center. I can shift the saddle back by ~15mm, so it's not looking too good.

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    That was before I got my 9point8 Fallline dropper which can use either a normal non offset head or an offset head that is 25mm offset. With the Thomson I ran the saddle pushed back on the rails and on the Fallline I run it about centred. Attached a pic of it from my CO trip where you can see where the saddle is in relation to the rear axle and BB. BTW, how tall are you and what's your cycling inseam?

    Quote Originally Posted by arnea View Post
    Thanks. I saw from your Phantom album that you are using Thomson setback seatpost. According to Thomson website it has 16mm setback. On my current bike the center of the seatpost head is ~225mm back from the BB center. I can shift the saddle back by ~15mm, so it's not looking too good.
    Phantom sizing help...-img_3877.jpg
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    Hi All, I'm 6' 2" with a 33" inseam and can't decide between a L or XL. Is anyone out there a similar size and what do you ride? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by finnlander View Post
    Hi All, I'm 6' 2" with a 33" inseam and can't decide between a L or XL. Is anyone out there a similar size and what do you ride? Thanks.
    I am 5'10-1/2" with a 33" inseam... I got a large and run it with a 35mm long stem fits me perfect. Not sure if that helps, but I would think with your longer torso than me you could get by better on a xl with a similar length stem.

  20. #20
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    If this thread is not enough, this thread may help.

    Quote Originally Posted by finnlander View Post
    Hi All, I'm 6' 2" with a 33" inseam and can't decide between a L or XL. Is anyone out there a similar size and what do you ride? Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnlander View Post
    Hi All, I'm 6' 2" with a 33" inseam and can't decide between a L or XL. Is anyone out there a similar size and what do you ride? Thanks.
    You're right on the line. You can go either way and make it work. The longer wheelbase will give a more stable ride at the expense of some agility. If you straight-line everything or smash through stuff, I'd go XL. If you like to bip and bop around, maybe go L.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    That was before I got my 9point8 Fallline dropper which can use either a normal non offset head or an offset head that is 25mm offset. With the Thomson I ran the saddle pushed back on the rails and on the Fallline I run it about centred. Attached a pic of it from my CO trip where you can see where the saddle is in relation to the rear axle and BB.

    BTW, how tall are you and what's your cycling inseam?
    Thank you for clarifications. I'm 191 cm tall (6'3,2") and inseam is 92 cm (36,2"). I have long arms. Current bike has 456mm reach and I have 110mm stem to get the handlebar into proper position.

    I took some measurements from the drawings of the old Phantom and photos of the new Phantom to understand what is the change.

    Old one: https://home.cyber.ee/arne/phantomdimensions2.png

    I used chainstay as a reference to dimension the drawing, because it is same for all sizes. By the seatpost length it seems to be drawing of the medium frame. 780mm is the correct height for the seatpost head and as you can see it is 213mm back from BB center. Real seat tube angle seems the be 70.2 degrees and it is shifted forward 57mm.

    New one: https://home.cyber.ee/arne/newphantomdimensions.png

    Photo is not so good for taking measurements because of the perspective distortion. I also used chainstay as a reference, but as you can see seatpost height and wheelbase do not match exactly with published dimensions (I found some here: Banshee Phantom Frame RockShox Monarch RT3 Debonair 2017 | Blazing Bikes - those seem to be correct). It seems to be large frame, but seat tube, wheelbase and fork length are bit too short compared to chainstay length. But it seems that the real seat tube angle is actually slacker, but it is offset by extra 10mm. It means that when the saddle is down it is more forward, but when it is up it is backward.

    If this is really true, then this is wonderful news for me. But I'm waiting for official dimensions and drawings and meanwhile try to decide on the color scheme. Right now I'm thinking about raw and blue because it makes is obvious that this is alloy frame.

  23. #23
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    Arnea, if you're asking if the ST is bent, then yes, it is and yes even with a straight ST when you drop the post height the saddle will move forward and down, just normal laws of physics. Your an inch taller than me in height and inseam, so think that XL would be your choice. Have to ask what width bar you're running with a 110mm stem on a 456mm Reach frame? Sounds a lot like how I used to run my V1 Paradox when I only used a 685mm wide bar, but once I moved to 750mm> bars, I moved from running 90-110mm stems to 60-90mm stems depending on which bike and what bar width.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Arnea, if you're asking if the ST is bent, then yes, it is and yes even with a straight ST when you drop the post height the saddle will move forward and down, just normal laws of physics.
    Yes, this is understandable. I'm looking at the changes in frame geometry - seat tube specifically and try to compare them with my current bike, where I have a good sitting position. I cannot use the "effective seat tube angle" for comparing the geometries, because it depends on the seatpost length.

    For comparison, this is my current bike (BMC Fourstroke): https://home.cyber.ee/arne/bmcdimensions2.png

    As you can see, the real seat tube angle of the BMC is steeper than it is on Phantom. But on the BMC the seat tube is offset only 24mm forward, compared 57mm on the Phantom. So if you are using short seatpost, the saddle is more forward on Phantom - the effective seat tube angle is steeper. But if you have long seatpost the saddle is almost on the same position.

    I tried to understand how is the steeper seatpost angle of new Phantom achieved - did they increase the offset or the real seat tube angle. From this single photo that I managed to find, it seems that they increased the offset but actually reduced the real seat tube angle. So the effective seat tube angle is actually decreasing faster when you increase the seatpost length.

    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Your an inch taller than me in height and inseam, so think that XL would be your choice. Have to ask what width bar you're running with a 110mm stem on a 456mm Reach frame? Sounds a lot like how I used to run my V1 Paradox when I only used a 685mm wide bar, but once I moved to 750mm> bars, I moved from running 90-110mm stems to 60-90mm stems depending on which bike and what bar width.
    Yes, I think XL will be good for me. I don't see any problems in the front end. I'm using 720mm bars. Only this seatpost thing was troubling me.

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