B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    New question here. B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.

    Hi Prime community.
    I was browsing over B+ trend, and of course I started to figure how my Prime would come out with 650b 40mm large rims and 2.8/3.0 airbags.

    Has anybody already attempted or started thinking about it ?
    Last edited by filbike; 11-20-2014 at 11:12 AM.

  2. #2
    FM
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    Oh yes! I am all over this.
    Light-bicycle.com has 38mm (ext) wide carbon rims releasing soon, I am just waiting for that.

    To be honest.... if I don't like it... the wheels will go on something designed for 27.5".

  3. #3
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    Talkin' about rims, NEXTIE already sells a 40 mm carbon.

    I don't have another bike, so of I don't like I have to sell.

  4. #4
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    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    Talkin' about rims, NEXTIE already sells a 40 mm carbon.
    Derby makes a 40mm 27.5 rim too

  5. #5
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    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.

    [fly on the wall]

  6. #6
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    Subbed in, interested in B+, but more so for the rigid. but if I get some, of course I'll try it on the Phantom/Prime. But just from my measurements, don't think you'll have any trouble what so ever running them on either the Prime or Phantom. 29+ might even fit, but chainstay length could be an issue, but not width clearance.
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  7. #7
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    Yeah, chainstays would be longer than a B+ specific frame, but this won't change anything in my ride.
    my concern was about tire clearance, but with measured 8.2 cm between stays, for sure I can use the 2.8 wtb trailblazers given at 7.2 cm section, or maybe some fattyer tires.
    The 727 mm reported diameter of trailblazers will drop the BB 1 cm (at 33.5 cm low setting ), as overall diameter difference between my 29er maxxis 2.3 DHR is -2 cm.
    Last edited by filbike; 11-22-2014 at 02:47 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Derby makes a 40mm 27.5 rim too
    ...at twice $$

  9. #9
    FM
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    LB38mm wheels on the way...

    These tires are expensive!
    I wonder if the Vee trax fatty 27.5x3.25 would fit?

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    Wow, I missed the boat on this idea! I was eyeing up the Salsa Bucksaw because I like the idea of big tires at low psi, never even thought of 650B with "sort of" fat tires. Was just thinking of replacing my EThirteen rims with something wider and going with 2.5" tires but I like this idea even better. Can't wait to see what the results are!

  11. #11
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    I'll be interested to hear how you guys get on with this, please post photos of clearance and ride reports if you try it. Cheers
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  12. #12
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    Unfortunately Iīm out of budget for new parts right now, but would like to try 26"+ semi-fat 2.8 to 3.0 tires on my Spitfire.
    According to a chart of an article on mtb-news.de the 26"+ diameter is almost identical to a 650B 2.3 or 2.4 tire ...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-tire-sizing.jpg  


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    I'll be interested to hear how you guys get on with this, please post photos of clearance and ride reports if you try it. Cheers
    maybe new B+ dropouts will be nice feature on our bikes.

  14. #14
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    I mounted up a 29x3.0 Knard / Flow Ex on my Prime; pics are on page 59 of the Prime production thread. Based on that, I'd say B+ could definitely work with the right wheel / tire. Also, we've got adjustable dropouts so the BB height can be raised if needed.

    With generous tire clearance and adjustable dropouts, these bikes are very versatile. When tire manufacturers finally start producing 29x2.7ish tires, I'm looking forward to trying them on my Prime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JACKL View Post
    I mounted up a 29x3.0 Knard / Flow Ex on my Prime; pics are on page 59 of the Prime production thread. Based on that, I'd say B+ could definitely work with the right wheel / tire. Also, we've got adjustable dropouts so the BB height can be raised if needed.

    With generous tire clearance and adjustable dropouts, these bikes are very versatile. When tire manufacturers finally start producing 29x2.7ish tires, I'm looking forward to trying them on my Prime.
    Oh thanks, I missed that. You could run '650b' dropouts to create tire more clearance if you did want to run this setup in mud and slush.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    maybe new B+ dropouts will be nice feature on our bikes.
    My question would be: Where there any differences to the current 650B-dropouts? These ones lengthen the stays about 10mm ...

    My other question would be: Is there a market and demand for 29+ tires? I can imagine that 650b (in general) and 26+ and B+ could gain popularity and sales in the near future. Maybe not for the racers among us, but for the all-day-explorers ... ?!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoStyle View Post
    My question would be: Where there any differences to the current 650B-dropouts? These ones lengthen the stays about 10mm ...
    The dropouts have not changed, so yeah, the clearance would increase by approximately 10mm.
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  18. #18
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    1/2 Phat Phantom w/ 29+ tyres

    Curious to all the folks interested in these + tyres for FS as to the why? Maybe I'm missing something, but the Prime/Phantom already have fantastic suspensions, pair that with any of the available "normal" 29er rubber already available up to real 2.5" tyres and you've got an awesome machine, can't see the need or want for so much bigger. Current tyre setup, WW LT rear, 2.35" Ikon front in dry conditions and loving it, combo is very fast, but the 2.35" Ikon really does offer a lot of grip for how fast it is. Have my 2.4" Chunky Monkey for the wet or a more aggressive setup.

    I did a check this AM, and the Phantom will clear a Maxxis Chronicle with the drop outs set to the slackest position, i.e. longest chainstay length, but clearance would only be for absolutely smooth dirt trails with no debri to get caught up in the tyre, at least IMHO. Also the F34 has clearance, but wouldn't trust in on anything more than smooth dirt with no debri to get lodged between the tyre and arch.

    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-dscn0837_web.jpgB+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-dscn0831_web.jpgB+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-dscn0827_web.jpgB+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-dscn0834_web.jpgB+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-dscn0828_web.jpg
    Last edited by LyNx; 11-25-2014 at 08:18 AM. Reason: to amend title
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    The dropouts have not changed, so yeah, the clearance would increase by approximately 10mm.
    Dear Keith, yes, thatīs why I questioned some possible "+" dropouts. Canīt imagine a significant difference versus the current 650B-dropouts, except being longer than 10mm for 4. tires ... ?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Curious to all the folks interested in these + tyres for FS as to the why? ...
    Good question!
    I have no (1/2) fat-tire-experience myself, but from what Iīve read those tires offer more traction/grip and better rolling-resistance. The right air-pressure seems to be the key. Smaller volume-tires should have faster rolling, but these big ones would make for a better all-weather/all-terrain usage ...

  21. #21
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    Well honestly my interest in the "+" market is for my rigid Karate Monkey or just rigid in general, but just toolin about on the Phantom with those tyres this AM in my drive, they felt sluggish and overkill to me, didn't inspire me to want to leave them on and go give them a try in dirt. In contrast to on the rigid where they feel fantastic, unfortunately the Monkey won't fit 29+ in the rear, so only on a 2.4" Ardent. Currently the 29+ are on the WTB ST i25s and tyre profile is very round, curious what will happen when I get the Velocity Dually 45mm external amd 39mm internal rims built and them mounted up.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoStyle View Post
    Good question!
    I have no (1/2) fat-tire-experience myself, but from what Iīve read those tires offer more traction/grip and better rolling-resistance. The right air-pressure seems to be the key. Smaller volume-tires should have faster rolling, but these big ones would make for a better all-weather/all-terrain usage ...
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoStyle View Post
    My question would be: Where there any differences to the current 650B-dropouts? These ones lengthen the stays about 10mm ...

    My other question would be: Is there a market and demand for 29+ tires? I can imagine that 650b (in general) and 26+ and B+ could gain popularity and sales in the near future. Maybe not for the racers among us, but for the all-day-explorers ... ?!?
    I was talking about having shorter dropouts for 29er and B+ so to reduce chainstay length. (possible with less wheel diameter)
    may be Rune's or Spitfire's 26er dropouts would shorten chainstay as well, but I don't know how they compare with prime's dropouts

  23. #23
    FM
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Curious to all the folks interested in these + tyres for FS as to the why?
    Just to try it
    decrease overall wheel diameter (sweet spot between 27.5 and 29?) without a new frame/fork
    traction at 15psi

    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I did a check this AM, and the Phantom will clear a Maxxis Chronicle
    Thanks for the pics. Can you please revise your post to show that these are 29+ tires? Other 27+ threads have already gotten pretty confusing with random 29+ tire references and pictures.

    The parts of this set-up you didn't like could be related to the 29+ wheelsize- certainly the clearance would work with 27+ and the wheel would spin up faster. Part of the allure of 27+ is that it could be nearly a wash with 29, in terms of diameter and weight.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Curious to all the folks interested in these + tyres for FS as to the why?
    Lean a fatbike over through a fast corner and you'll have a 'wow' moment. Then imagine it might be possible to capture some of that with wheels that aren't quite as ponderous, in a frame I already have, and as you point out, has great suspension characteristics. That's is why I'm watching this develop with some interest. I'm still recovering from a period of being a single income household and have to pick my battles, but tire selection will likely improve as this ferments a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    I was talking about having shorter dropouts for 29er and B+ so to reduce chainstay length. (possible with less wheel diameter)
    may be Rune's or Spitfire's 26er dropouts would shorten chainstay as well, but I don't know how they compare with prime's dropouts
    I get what you are thinking of.
    Well, as far as I know the (short = 26" = 142/150x12) dropouts work for every KS-Link frame, including Rune, Spitfire, Darkside, Prime and Phantom. The (10mm longer) 650B dropouts are mainly for the Rune, Spitfire and Darkside to convert them for the midsize-wheels, but can be used on the Prime and Phantom too, if you like longer CS. Iīm not sure if shorter than the 26 dropouts give enough tire-clearance for B+ wheels/tires in the Prime and Phantom rear. Take a closer look to my earlier posted chart. The diameter of a 26+ is almost identical to a 650B while a 650B+ is almost identical to a 29 ...

  26. #26
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    Yup, so absolutely get that.

    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    Just to try it.
    Reply title revised to state 29+ tyres. Can see your point with the 650B+, somewhere between 650B and 29" normal tyres and running one of the 2.7" would give a bit less of the fat bike feel. Pics just show how much clearance the Phantom has, so if they come out with say a 2.7" 29er tyre it could fit.
    Only place I'd imagine I'd be looking at these for an FS would be in a place where there's lots of sand/silty, lose soil where suspension doesn't help, only big, floaty tyres.

    Quote Originally Posted by FM
    Thanks for the pics. Can you please revise your post to show that these are 29+ tires? Other 27+ threads have already gotten pretty confusing with random 29+ tire references and pictures.

    The parts of this set-up you didn't like could be related to the 29+ wheelsize- certainly the clearance would work with 27+ and the wheel would spin up faster. Part of the allure of 27+ is that it could be nearly a wash with 29, in terms of diameter and weight.
    Never ridden a fatbike, not a chance to demo one down here unless I bring one in, so like FM, this is a cheap and easy thing to try to see what "fat" feels like. Maybe I'll give it a go on the trails, but it just felt heavy and cumbersome to me on the Phantom, but felt perfectly right on the Monkey. Could be having F&R 29+ on the Phantom and feeling the weight to spin up as compared to the weight/spin up of the 2.4" Ardent, although will say the Chronicle didn't feel (in hand) like it weighed much more than the my Ardent, think it's more down to the contact patch being so much bigger.
    Quote Originally Posted by evasive View Post
    Lean a fatbike over through a fast corner and you'll have a 'wow' moment. Then imagine it might be possible to capture some of that with wheels that aren't quite as ponderous, in a frame I already have, and as you point out, has great suspension characteristics. That's is why I'm watching this develop with some interest. I'm still recovering from a period of being a single income household and have to pick my battles, but tire selection will likely improve as this ferments a while.
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  27. #27
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    Yup, as far as I aware, all the "normal" drop outs swap between all the KS-link frames, just the 650B are different/longer. Liking that idea NS, could be interesting if someone wanted the float of the 29+ tyres on a Prime or Phantom. Going by what I've read a 650B+ tyre will be nearly 29" in diameter, so not sure how much shorter you could honestly make the drop outs/stays to accommodate that small savings.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoStyle View Post
    Well, as far as I know the (short = 26" = 142/150x12) dropouts work for every KS-Link frame, including Rune, Spitfire, Darkside, Prime and Phantom. The (10mm longer) 650B dropouts are mainly for the Rune, Spitfire and Darkside to convert them for the midsize-wheels, but can be used on the Prime and Phantom too, if you like longer CS. Iīm not sure if shorter than the 26 dropouts give enough tire-clearance for B+ wheels/tires in the Prime and Phantom rear. Take a closer look to my earlier posted chart. The diameter of a 26+ is almost identical to a 650B while a 650B+ is almost identical to a 29 ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoStyle View Post
    ........ Iīm not sure if shorter than the 26 dropouts give enough tire-clearance for B+ wheels/tires in the Prime and Phantom rear. Take a closer look to my earlier posted chart. The diameter of a 26+ is almost identical to a 650B while a 650B+ is almost identical to a 29 ...
    If WTB Trailblazers are 727mm in diameter as reported, the
    20+ mm less than my maxxis 2.3 dhr is not really almost the same as 29er! That's room to play with.... like 10mm shorter dropouts.
    I don't have experience to know how 10 mm less in chainstay length would change bike character, I probably wouldn't even feel it.
    It was just about thinking perfect fit for every wheel size.
    big + for banshee

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    If WTB Trailblazers are 727mm in diameter as reported, ...
    They're not, though. Trailblazers are about 710mm in diameter.

  30. #30
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    How about the width, have an accurate measurement on that?
    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    They're not, though. Trailblazers are about 710mm in diameter.
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  31. #31
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    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-goma2.jpgB+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-goma1.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    How about the width, have an accurate measurement on that?
    Yes, the bead to bead measurement is 165mm and it stretched to 168mm after a few weeks at pressure. On a P35 it measured 64mm (shown) and 66mm on a Nextie 40mm. It is rated at 67mm which it would meet or exceed on a Dually or 50mm rim. It never reaches "2.8" which appears to be its name, not its rated size. It's a 2.5 - 2.7 tire depending on rim.

    It's shown next to a Goma 2.4 29er. The Goma is 160mm bead to bead and is 2mm narrower and 2mm shorter on the same rim. There is a 34mm difference in diameter regardless of rim size. This is true for the Trail King 2.4 and WTB Trail Boss 2.4 as well.

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    This is not nearly as a 29er diameter, I'm gonna wait beefier tires.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    This is not nearly as a 29er diameter, I'm gonna wait beefier tires.
    Dave Turner said the same thing in the King Kahn thread:

    "BB will be 13.3" with 120 Bluto and 4" tire. So, a 29 tire on 622 BSD rim will work! The WTB 27.5x2.75 is notably shorter than even an XC 29r OD at tread so... no."

    There's a lot of misinformation regarding this tire, it is not a "plus" sized tire at all and it comes nowhere close to a 29er in diameter.

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    Well, if TBs are definitively not as 29er, on the other side seems that VEETRAX 3,25 B+ are really almost like 29ers...but.... will hardly fit Prime mounted on a 35mm channel rim, as you'll have a mere 1mm side clearance.
    Better would be with narrower rims but you probably end up with side rolling issues.
    Worst thing absolutely won't fit my pike.

    Here's what stated on:
    twentynineinches.com
    Vee Tire Trax Fatty 27.5″ X 3.25″ Tires: Quick Review

    ...Unfortunately I have found my other attempts with different forks to not be as successful. Neither the ROCK SHOX, FOX, or MAGURA fit the Trax Fatty B+ tire......

    ....Initially for this test I used the broad IBIS 741 wheels, the same as I rode for the Trailblazer test. The dimensions for the Trax Fatty on this rim (35 mm inner dimension) revealed that the carcass and tread width are absolutely identical on this tire at 79 mm (@ 1.25 bar tire pressure ). Not quite the advertised 3.25″ (or 82.6 mm) , but on a properly wide rim of 50-60mm, it may well come to the desired dimension. On the slightly narrower AMERICAN CLASSIC Wide Lightning rim the tire comes in at a smaller 76 mm......

    Full review HERE

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    Well, if TBs are definitively not as 29er, on the other side seems that VEETRAX 3,25 B+ are really almost like 29ers...but.... will hardly fit Prime mounted on a 35mm channel rim, as you'll have a mere 1mm side clearance.
    Better would be with narrower rims but you probably end up with side rolling issues.
    I agree, the difference between 650B and 29er is simply too great for a drop-in to work without compromise. We need to see some B+ options in the 3" range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I agree, the difference between 650B and 29er is simply too great for a drop-in to work without compromise. We need to see some B+ options in the 3" range.
    yeah, let's see what new VTF or panaracer 3,0 tires look like.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I agree, the difference between 650B and 29er is simply too great for a drop-in to work without compromise. We need to see some B+ options in the 3" range.
    Perhaps, but the Prime has a few tricks up it's sleeve that make this more viable than it would be on other bikes. The banshee prime geometry is based off a 546mm fork, basically a 140 fox32 or a 150 pike. But a 160 fork feels great with the slack setting. Now, combine the 160 fork with the drop-outs in the mid or steep setting, and your BB could be 14" with standard 29" tires. So with those settings, losing some wheel diameter would get the BB down to proper height, and the angles would still be pretty much as designed. The tire clearance on the Prime is also perfect for these huge tires.

    So on paper, it looks like it would work perfectly. Has anyone actually ridden this set-up though? Doesn't seem like it.

    I'm not feeling the love for the tread on the WTB tires, for our local conditions. And at $100 a tire... yowch.

    I had actually ordered up some wheels to try this, but I am going to put them on a spitfire instead

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by FM View Post
    I'm not feeling the love for the tread on the WTB tires, for our local conditions. And at $100 a tire... yowch.
    I agree regarding the Trailblazer. It seems "designed" for the kind of riding that doesn't even justify a larger tire IMO, that being lots of light trail and paved surfaces.

    Of course, it's not really larger anyway. At 165mm bead-to-bead, it's only 5mm larger than several 2.4" tires available from WTB and others (Geax and Conti that I know of). Their Breakout is 2.5 as well and is almost certainly the same casing size but 2 ply. Several options basically the same size once you put them on a 50mm rim.

    I've also built a wheel to experiment with but only a rear in my case. I won't have a Prime, though, until February. If + works well at all, I'll be curious whether 29+ or B+ turns out better. Without true 3" B+ tires I think the question is moot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsj View Post
    I agree regarding the Trailblazer. It seems "designed" for the kind of riding that doesn't even justify a larger tire IMO, that being lots of light trail and paved surfaces.

    Of course, it's not really larger anyway. At 165mm bead-to-bead, it's only 5mm larger than several 2.4" tires available from WTB and others (Geax and Conti that I know of). Their Breakout is 2.5 as well and is almost certainly the same casing size but 2 ply. Several options basically the same size once you put them on a 50mm rim.

    I've also built a wheel to experiment with but only a rear in my case. I won't have a Prime, though, until February. If + works well at all, I'll be curious whether 29+ or B+ turns out better. Without true 3" B+ tires I think the question is moot.

    As for 29+ I dare say Prime tire clearance, supposing to use Maxxis Chronicles, is going to be on the short side or a no go, unless you change the dropouts with 27,5 model, that up in the thread are reported as swappable on every KS link swingarm. Just keep an eye on side clearance tho.
    Maybe Keith will chime in and confirm.

  40. #40
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    You did look at my pics right? The Chronicle/29+ tyre fits in the Phantom with the drop outs in the slack setting, i.e. the longest chainstay length. Phantom and Prime have the same room in there rear tris. Clearance is not huge, but definitely rideable in the dry.
    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    As for 29+ I dare say Prime tire clearance, supposing to use Maxxis Chronicles, is going to be on the short side or a no go, unless you change the dropouts with 27,5 model, that up in the thread are reported as swappable on every KS link swingarm. Just keep an eye on side clearance tho.
    Maybe Keith will chime in and confirm.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    You did look at my pics right? The Chronicle/29+ tyre fits in the Phantom with the drop outs in the slack setting, i.e. the longest chainstay length. Phantom and Prime have the same room in there rear tris. Clearance is not huge, but definitely rideable in the dry.
    Sorry, I didn't remember you posted about Chronicles.
    good to know then, sure is a tight fit but really usable in dry conditions, 27,5 dropouts will do the job in muddier times if having enough fork clearance.
    Last edited by filbike; 12-15-2014 at 01:58 AM.

  42. #42
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    @LyNx
    Would you please tell me the maximum diameter of the chronicles at max suggested pressure ? I'm just curious to know if they really fit my RS Pike.

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    Best I can give you is on an ST i25 rim @ about 15 PSI and get a smidge over 29 7/8" or 759mm.


    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    @LyNx
    Would you please tell me the maximum diameter of the chronicles at max suggested pressure ? I'm just curious to know if they really fit my RS Pike.
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    Thanks LyNx,
    wow!!! 15psi (at rear I suppose) it's a really low.
    I thought if I mounted the chronicles I'd have inflated at 20 psi min.
    But as far as I know you are a big guy like me, so if I eventually give 29+ a try, I think I'd love such low psi... and on wider rims you could go even at lower pressure.
    Last edited by filbike; 12-17-2014 at 01:43 AM.

  45. #45
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    Actually no, there's nothing "big" about me, I am tall, but barely 180lbs geared to ride. This is just on a rim since I don't actually have it mounted up on a wheel right now, trying another. 15 PSI is what I use for the front using a Topeak Jo Blow guage and actually quite high, even for the rear according to most, but this is my first time trying this low pressure game, so taking it easy and conservatively at first.

    Quote Originally Posted by filbike View Post
    Thanks LyNx,
    wow!!! 15psi (at rear I suppose) it's a really low.
    I thought if I mounted the chronicles I'd have inflated at 20 psi min.
    But as far as I know you are a big guy like me, so if I eventually give 29+ a try, I think I'd love such low psi... and on wider rims you could go even at lower pressure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Actually no, there's nothing "big" about me, I am tall, but barely 180lbs geared to ride. This is just on a rim since I don't actually have it mounted up on a wheel right now, trying another. 15 PSI is what I use for the front using a Topeak Jo Blow guage and actually quite high, even for the rear according to most, but this is my first time trying this low pressure game, so taking it easy and conservatively at first.
    Well, I'm 15 lbs more, geared, and in worst case i'd go at max suggested pressure. That's anyway 10 psi less than my actual ride.
    I didn't immediately consider 29+ because I supposed there wasn't enough diameter room on the frame but now I'm discovering that real limit is fork. According to your measuring there's 2-3 mm clearance on the Pike, and you cannot put different dropouts on that.
    Last edited by filbike; 12-18-2014 at 01:59 AM.

  47. #47
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    I'm curious, did anyone ever measure the width of the rear chainstays at both 14.25" (B+) from the axle and 15" (29+)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    I'm curious, did anyone ever measure the width of the rear chainstays at both 14.25" (B+) from the axle and 15" (29+)?
    My rough check gave me 82mm at B+ size.
    Last edited by filbike; 02-12-2015 at 02:45 AM.

  49. #49
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    Is that both at the chainstay and seatstay? 82mm would be wide enough to fit a 3.25" VTF on a wide rim, and then some!

    Quote Originally Posted by 06HokieMTB View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Is that both at the chainstay and seatstay? 82mm would be wide enough to fit a 3.25" VTF on a wide rim, and then some!
    after accurate check, side clearance on my prime is 81 mm at both seatstay and chainstay

    For a safe ride in dry conditions I wouldn't go wider than a 75 mm tyre with well dished and trued wheel.

    I think 3.35 VTF is a no go on prime with wide rims, but also is a no go on sub 35mm ID rims for other reasons.
    Last edited by filbike; 02-13-2015 at 03:50 AM.

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    Same for the Spitfire: 81/82mm clearance on chain/seatstays ...

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    Hey, even the ability to run the 3" tires is pretty cool, and once you've got the wide rims it won't hurt to try the 3.25" tires. Plus, the VTF only measures 76mm on a 40mm rim, so I think you'd be safe there.

    Now if only Banshee could make the Phantom 1 pound lighter...
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  53. #53
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    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.

    The issue with a 29+ tire in the Phantom is not so much chain stay clearance / width but rather the "bridge" that connects the chain stays behind the seat tube. The 29+ wheel diameter is too big.

    I would think that this wouldn't be an issue with a B+ wheel since diameter is supposed to be close to a normal 29er wheel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    The issue with a 29+ tire in the Phantom is not so much chain stay clearance / width but rather the "bridge" that connects the chain stays behind the seat tube. The 29+ wheel diameter is too big.

    I would think that this wouldn't be an issue with a B+ wheel since diameter is supposed to be close to a normal 29er wheel.
    We haven't tested this, but is an option that might make more options possible.

    If you run the '650b' dropouts on the phantom or prime it will increase radial tire clearance buy about 10mm which may make some 29+ options possible.
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  55. #55
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    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    We haven't tested this, but is an option that might make more options possible.

    If you run the '650b' dropouts on the phantom or prime it will increase radial tire clearance buy about 10mm which may make some 29+ options possible.
    Don't suppose you want a tester for this?

  56. #56
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    I have a set of the 650B drop outs, just waiting on my 142/Dually45 rear wheel, but should be borrowing a "normal" one this weekend to start testing, but won't be ideal as won't be on the Dually45 that I have for the front. As I reported earlier in the thread, a 29+ like the Chronicle will fit into the Phantom/Prime with the drop outs set in the slackest setting, hence longest chainstay length and you could ride it on dry dirt trails, but definitely no room for anything to get caught up in between the tyre and frame.

    Also along this topic, hoping to soon get a set of 650B Blunt35 wheels and some 650B+ tyres to test on my Phantoms, think it'd be nice, especially on the Mediums when wanting to get them to fit shorter people, just need to get a set or two of 170mm cranks. Will of course also try them on the Phantom.

    Bit of an epiphany for me regarding wide rims - As I said, have a Velocity Dually45 front for 29+ originally for the rigid and then when it fit to test on the Phantom and also on the Paradox. This week just for fun since I was waiting on my rear Dually45 wheel I decided to throw a normal tyre on the front Dually wheel, a 2.25" Smorgasbord, figured it'd be overkill, it was not, well maybe a tad. The support it gave to the tyre and how solid it made it feel was amazing, no tyre roll at all, flattened out the profile a bit (they're a very round tyre on a 125/Flow) and changed it from a tyre I wouldn't run upfront to one I have no problem running upfront. It's also changed my expectations of rim width in relation to tyre width and as such I won't be ordering a rim under 35mm wide for myself in the future - have always felt tyre roll/squirm quite a lot on all of my frames I've had and I think this will stop that problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by builttoride View Post
    We haven't tested this, but is an option that might make more options possible.

    If you run the '650b' dropouts on the phantom or prime it will increase radial tire clearance buy about 10mm which may make some 29+ options possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    Don't suppose you want a tester for this?
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  57. #57
    AOK
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    I did some experimenting tonight. Took the rear wheel off of my Krampus and put it on the Phantom to see how 29+ would work.

    Surprisingly, it clears the seat stay bridge that I thought would be the problem... although it clears by like 1/2 mm or so. The tire bottoms out against the vertical struts at the front of the rear triangle though. Also has maybe a hair's width at best between the tire and the front/sides of the CS yoke.

    Having said all of this, I think that 29+ could work in the Phantom with a narrower rim (I have Nextie 50mm rims on my Krampus) and the 650b dropouts.

    So I ordered a set of the dropouts tonight. I already have 35mm Derby rims on the Phantom and I know they work fine with 29+ rubber. (I used Derby as my original Krampus wheelset before deciding to try the wider rims.) I actually just swapped out new tires on the Krampus recently, so I have a pair of Knards that I can put on the Phantom to try it out. I am running a MRP stage on both Krampus and Phantom, so I know I have the clearance I need on the front end. If all works out, I should be rolling in a week or so. I will post pics and results when I have the new dropouts.

  58. #58
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    I'm curious, have you mounted up any of your "normal" tyres on the Nexties? I was absolutely blown away by what mounting a 2.25" Smorgasbord to my Dually45 did, put next to a Chunky Monkey on an i25, they both measured 61mm at the casing. So I thought since I'm waiting on my 142 rear to try the 29+, why not then see what the CM did on the Dually and holy cow, it also grew about 4mm, it's absolutely huge now. Know for sure that I'll be running the Dually wheels on my rigid, but now wondering if not on the Phantom/Prime as well instead of building a set of Blunt35s


    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    I did some experimenting tonight. Took the rear wheel off of my Krampus and put it on the Phantom to see how 29+ would work.

    Surprisingly, it clears the seat stay bridge that I thought would be the problem... although it clears by like 1/2 mm or so. The tire bottoms out against the vertical struts at the front of the rear triangle though. Also has maybe a hair's width at best between the tire and the front/sides of the CS yoke.

    Having said all of this, I think that 29+ could work in the Phantom with a narrower rim (I have Nextie 50mm rims on my Krampus) and the 650b dropouts.

    So I ordered a set of the dropouts tonight. I already have 35mm Derby rims on the Phantom and I know they work fine with 29+ rubber. (I used Derby as my original Krampus wheelset before deciding to try the wider rims.) I actually just swapped out new tires on the Krampus recently, so I have a pair of Knards that I can put on the Phantom to try it out. I am running a MRP stage on both Krampus and Phantom, so I know I have the clearance I need on the front end. If all works out, I should be rolling in a week or so. I will post pics and results when I have the new dropouts.
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    All this wide wheel talk has me thinking. I see 29+ won't fit...which is just fine. But thinking the Dually or Derby would be great to try with the 2.4/2.35 Ardent/Ikon. But I refuse to give up my 36h CK hubs, and don't think Derby does 36h drilling on 29" rims. :frownyface.jpg:

    Maybe I just stick to my tiny FlowEX for a while?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    All this wide wheel talk has me thinking. I see 29+ won't fit...which is just fine. But thinking the Dually or Derby would be great to try with the 2.4/2.35 Ardent/Ikon. But I refuse to give up my 36h CK hubs, and don't think Derby does 36h drilling on 29" rims. :frownyface.jpg:

    Maybe I just stick to my tiny FlowEX for a while?
    Derby doesn't stock 36 hole 29er rims but the website says "email for custom order hole count". It's worth a shot to see if he can do it.

  61. #61
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    Also sadly for you, the Dually does not come in 36 hole, only 32. Personally I think you should keep a set of "light" narrow wheels and build a new set of "whatever" wide ones with the Derbys or Dually or some such.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    All this wide wheel talk has me thinking. I see 29+ won't fit...which is just fine. But thinking the Dually or Derby would be great to try with the 2.4/2.35 Ardent/Ikon. But I refuse to give up my 36h CK hubs, and don't think Derby does 36h drilling on 29" rims. :frownyface.jpg:

    Maybe I just stick to my tiny FlowEX for a while?
    Quote Originally Posted by 12snap View Post
    Derby doesn't stock 36 hole 29er rims but the website says "email for custom order hole count". It's worth a shot to see if he can do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Also sadly for you, the Dually does not come in 36 hole, only 32. Personally I think you should keep a set of "light" narrow wheels and build a new set of "whatever" wide ones with the Derbys or Dually or some such.
    Sorry, is this my credit card company talking? "Go ahead Jon, max the card out Jon, it will be ok"!!

    I cannot afford another wheelset, much less justify having two. If I upgrade, it will be on the bike 24/7/365.

  63. #63
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    LMAO Well, for the price of the 2 Derby rims you could afford a full wheelset with the Duallys and decent enough hubs BUt if you're set on just one wheelset, then get in contact with them and ask about getting the 36 hole option.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Sorry, is this my credit card company talking? "Go ahead Jon, max the card out Jon, it will be ok"!!

    I cannot afford another wheelset, much less justify having two. If I upgrade, it will be on the bike 24/7/365.
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  64. #64
    AOK
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    I see 29+ won't fit...which is just fine.
    About that...

    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-img_4057.jpg

    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-img_4058.jpg

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    Nice! How does it ride? Which dropouts is that with? How much clearance is there?

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    Full details here http://forums.mtbr.com/banshee-bikes...l#post11786255

    Drop outs are the 650B ones. A Chronicle fit into my Phantom with normal drop outs in the slackest setting, but barely any clearance for debri, 650B adds 10mm in chanstay length.

    Quote Originally Posted by shackleton View Post
    Nice! How does it ride? Which dropouts is that with? How much clearance is there?
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  67. #67
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    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by shackleton View Post
    Nice! How does it ride? Which dropouts is that with? How much clearance is there?
    Here is what I put in the other thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    For those of you not following the B+ Phantom thread... Here is my 29+ Phantom.

    No ride time yet - it is snow/sleet/raining here so it will probably be a few days at best before I get on a trail. No idea if I will like the setup or not. (Although I really like my Krampus.)

    It was a fairly modest investment - I just picked up a set of the 650B dropouts and was good to go.

    Already had the Derby 35mm rims on the Phantom, and I just pulled the Knards off of my Krampus recently since I got different tires for it. For now I will probably just use my Krampus front wheel (as shown) unless I decide to keep the Phantom as 29+ longer term.

    Clearance is good in the front of the tire on the yoke and seat stay bridge. The chain stays are tight around the sidewalls, but still 4-5mm clearance. I actually was able to fit my Krampus rear wheel (50mm rim + Chupacabra tire) in there but it was REALLY tight on the chain stay clearance. Like 1mm or so. As Keith stated in the B+ thread, the 650B dropouts add about 10mm to the chain stay length. I measured before and after and got exactly 10mm difference.
    As stated above no real ride time yet. I ripped around the backyard a little and it seemed ok. Plusher than the Phantom normally feels due to the extra cush in the tires. Bike feels taller (duh) when you throw a leg over it but it didn't seem too different once I started riding around. I am guessing that BB height is somewhere between 0.25 - 0.5" higher (forgot to measure). We will see how it does when I get on real trails with tighter corners.

    The rear felt a little squirmy - I will probably have to add just a touch more pressure. I was at ~12 psi which is what I usually run on the Krampus. This is also partially due to the Knard. If I keep this setup long term I will probably switch to a Chupacabra for the rear tire.

  68. #68
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    As AOK said, when I gave it a whirl with just the normal drop outs in the slack position on my i25 wheelset, to me it felt a bit too "squishy", like overkill, toolin around on the drive, but am curious to try it with the 650B drop outs and Dually45 wheels (just waiting on another Dually rim).

    Pics below showing clearance with normal 150mm drop outs in slack position.

    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-dscn0831_web.jpg

    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-dscn0827_web.jpg

    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-dscn0834_web.jpg

    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-dscn0828_web.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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  69. #69
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    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.

    Forgot to mention - the 29+ setup added approx 2 lbs. A little more that I would have expected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AOK View Post
    About that...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    You dirty dawg!! That looks pretty swollen to me! I have a prime though....surely that wouldn't fit in my prime....def not...never!!

  71. #71
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    Very cool AOK!

    The Prime should take a 29x3.0 tire as well with the 650B dropouts.

  72. #72
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    Can you buy just the dropouts? No need for another hanger & axle.

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    The 650B 142 x 12 drop outs come with an axle and hanger, as does the 150 x 12 drop out.

    Quote Originally Posted by unrooted View Post
    Can you buy just the dropouts? No need for another hanger & axle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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  74. #74
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    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by unrooted View Post
    Can you buy just the dropouts? No need for another hanger & axle.
    Dunno. The drops on Jenson are the whole kit with axle, hanger, and mounting hardware.

  75. #75
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    Finally managed to sneak in a ride on the Phantom+ between the ice/snow/rain/repeat that we have been having lately.

    I would have to say it is pretty much what I expected.

    The good:
    - The extra cush from the + sized tires gives the illusion of a very plush rear suspension.
    - Traction is amazing.
    - The extra rollover from the larger wheel diameter is awesome
    - Added BB height was not noticeable
    - Bike was surprisingly nimble despite the larger heavier wheels

    The bad:
    - The Knard was definitely rubbing at times on the drive side chainstay.
    - Now that I have ridden other 29+ tires, the Knard seems like a lousy rear tire

    I will have to do some investigation into the tire rub. I took the wheel out when I got home and it wasn't bad enough to leave a mark that I could see (other than just a dirt smudge). So it couldn't have been rubbing that hard - although I could hear it at times during the ride. I will check to see if the wheel is true, etc, but I think the rub is just due to some tire squirm + tight clearance.

    As with my Krampus, bombing downhill on the + setup is great. Loads of traction with even more rollover / momentum due to the larger wheel.

  76. #76
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    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.

    Following up - my rear wheel was out of true. So that is likely the cause of the rubbing.

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    Kill wheel builder.

    I see the Derby is avail in a 36 hole option, but out of stock. DAMN

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    AOK,

    How much do you weigh?

    I got my Innova's yesterday...the sidewalls are thin, how are yours holding up?

    I'm having second thoughts on putting them on my Prime (I weigh 240 lbs). I still have not picked up my 650b dropouts yet.

    How do their sidewalls compare to the other 29+ tires you've tried?

    I might wait for Dirt Wizards to become available and hope they don't cost $120 a piece.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbsocal View Post
    AOK,

    How much do you weigh?

    I got my Innova's yesterday...the sidewalls are thin, how are yours holding up?

    I'm having second thoughts on putting them on my Prime (I weigh 240 lbs). I still have not picked up my 650b dropouts yet.

    How do their sidewalls compare to the other 29+ tires you've tried?

    I might wait for Dirt Wizards to become available and hope they don't cost $120 a piece.
    I'm probably about 200 lbs all geared up.

    I agree that the Innova sidewalls are thin. But I would say they are not any worse than the Knard (120 tpi) sidewalls.

    I haven't had any issues with either Knard or Innova Gravity, although torn sidewalls are not a big problem in general on the trails I usually ride.

    The Chupacabra sidewalls are thicker - you might try them or the Maxxis Chronicle. Much pricier than the Innova Gravity though.

  80. #80
    AOK
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    Impressions from round 2 of my Phantom+ experiment here:
    My new FS 29+ Rig- Mtbr.com

    Liking it much better this time around. I will probably keep the + setup for a while.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    As AOK said, when I gave it a whirl with just the normal drop outs in the slack position on my i25 wheelset, to me it felt a bit too "squishy", like overkill, toolin around on the drive, but am curious to try it with the 650B drop outs and Dually45 wheels (just waiting on another Dually rim).

    Pics below showing clearance with normal 150mm drop outs in slack position.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    What's the inner width of the rims?
    And what is more important what was pressure? Chronicles are like balloons - just 5psi can add 2 mm each side.

  82. #82
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    Any updates on these experiments?

    It would have been sweet if Banshee tweaked the rear swingarm to provide a bit more clearance for the 29+ setup.
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  83. #83
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    Nothing further with me and trying this. Would have to ask why would Banshee tweak the design for 29+ when 650B+ can already work just fine with just about a 1/4-3/8" drop in BB height? IMHO 650B+ is a better solution keeping wheel/tyre weight about the same as current 29er tyre/wheel combos with the same sort of tread and casing and the slightly lesser size means spinning up the wheels won't take any more effort. FYI, if you want that little extra clearance, just purchase the 650B drop outs, gives you an additional 10mm in chainstay length, which is basically all you need.
    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Any updates on these experiments?

    It would have been sweet if Banshee tweaked the rear swingarm to provide a bit more clearance for the 29+ setup.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Any updates on these experiments?

    It would have been sweet if Banshee tweaked the rear swingarm to provide a bit more clearance for the 29+ setup.
    Been riding Dirt Wizard 29+ on my Prime with the 650b dropouts, really like these larger tires, wish they would fit on my other long travel 29ers.

    I might try to pick up a used phantom and run 29+ on it too.

    So far, I'm not interested in running any other 29+ tire (like the Dirt Wizards tread).

    So far, I've ridden them on my usual trails but also at the Bike park (no big jumps or big drops; I've only ridden the DW+ at the Bike park).

    I have two sets of wide carbon rims (941's and Roval Fatties)...the 941's with DHF 2.5's mounted and the Fatties with DW 29+...I will eventually be riding them back to back, I expect to like the DW 29+ more.

    I'm not sure how low of pressure I can run (I weigh about 250 suited up), so I will eventually use Procore to help protect my rims from rock strikes regardless of which tire I run.
    Last edited by jbsocal; 08-05-2015 at 11:09 PM.

  85. #85
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    No updates from me. For now I am back to normal 29" tires. The 29+ thing is loads of fun, but I am not sure if I want to keep the Phantom like that all the time. Luckily with the modular dropouts it is a quick swap to go from normal to plus mode.

  86. #86
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    no news from me. I'm having home restoration right now so I'm just broke.
    But as soon as funds will stop flowing out my bank account i'll buy carbon B+ rims and tyres and build new wheels.
    I'm sure such configured Prime will be a joy machine!!!

  87. #87
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    It seems that all the thread is on 29+ experiments, did someone actually explore the B+ route?

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    What was the max width between the stays? It'd be rad if a VTF 3.25 or something even bigger (27.5 format) could fit.

    Shame that even with the 650b dropouts on the Prime/Phantom that neither will fit the bigger 3.0 tires like the Bombolini, but I don't forsee 29+ getting much bigger than that.
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    I'm in the process of doing that - Finally just got my WTB Trailblazer 2.8" tyre for fitment and to just see what it's al about. On a Flow rim at 40 PSI it measures 64mm on the casing, 61-62mm at riding pressures, imagine that on the proper rim it will be a bit bigger, plan is for WTB i35 wheels. Now that there's a few more options available in 650B+ I'll be looking at maybe another as a front tyre option.

    Quote Originally Posted by savo View Post
    It seems that all the thread is on 29+ experiments, did someone actually explore the B+ route?
    Clearance in my stays is 80-81mm on both Prime and Phantom, so lots of room. Who told you the bigger tyres won't fit using 650B drop outs?
    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    What was the max width between the stays? It'd be rad if a VTF 3.25 or something even bigger (27.5 format) could fit.

    Shame that even with the 650b dropouts on the Prime/Phantom that neither will fit the bigger 3.0 tires like the Bombolini, but I don't forsee 29+ getting much bigger than that.
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  90. #90
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    I thought someone had tested one of the larger 29+ tires on wide rims and it didn't fit the bridge, even with 650b drops. DW or Chupa on Jungle Fox rims?

    Could be wrong. Would love to be wrong.

    It'd be rad if Banshee made the Paradox with swap drops, made the stock 29er drops the "short/26" style, then allowed the 650b drop to fit 29+. On the website they display a Paradox with Maxxis B+ tires.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    I thought someone had tested one of the larger 29+ tires on wide rims and it didn't fit the bridge, even with 650b drops. DW or Chupa on Jungle Fox rims?

    Could be wrong. Would love to be wrong.

    It'd be rad if Banshee made the Paradox with swap drops, made the stock 29er drops the "short/26" style, then allowed the 650b drop to fit 29+. On the website they display a Paradox with Maxxis B+ tires.
    I fit my Prime with 29+ tires on 35mm external/30 mm internal rims light bicycle rims. I tried a Chronicle in the rear, which rubbed under suspension compression, and a Dirt Wizard that fits with no problems. However, I currently switched the rear to a Minion DHF 2.5 for something with a burlier casing.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    I thought someone had tested one of the larger 29+ tires on wide rims and it didn't fit the bridge, even with 650b drops. DW or Chupa on Jungle Fox rims?

    Could be wrong. Would love to be wrong.
    I had a 3.0 Knard / Jungle Fox on my Phantom. Bridge clearance was fine, but it was really tight on the sides (chain stays). I had some chainstay rub which turned out to be due to the wheel being out of true. Once I fixed my wheel the rub issue was gone, although clearance was still tight.

    With a Derby 35mm rim there was plenty of clearance. I suspect a 40 mm rim would also work well. (The jungle fox rims are 50mm for reference.)

    Honestly after playing around with 29+ I think I was happier with the Derby 35mm rims. The Jungle Fox setup had a nice solid footprint but seemed a little slower overall. With the narrower rims I was able to go *almost* as low pressure-wise and the overall ride felt faster / more playful. Just my two cents.

    One place that the JF rims excelled was when I was running Knards. For whatever reason the Knards just felt squirmy on my Derby rims. When I swapped them for Chupacabra / Innova Vidar tires the Derbys did a lot better.

  93. #93
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    ^AOK I can honestly say I am a little dissapointed with your follow up on the 29+ options with the prime/phantom. I was hoping for pics and full writeups regarding performance and impression.

    My dream wheelset consists of 35mm derby wheels /w maybe a maxxis chronicle or dirt wizard. Don't make me force info from you...it won't be pretty.

  94. #94
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    Keep returning to this thread hoping that somehow clearances have magically expanded since my last visit.

    Have two 29+ bikes now and really can't see ever dropping in size, the format really suits me. So the full suss question pops up all the time and not having the money at the moment to go down the Lenz route or custom, I end back here.

    Have the opportunity to grab a mint Phantom second hand and would be grateful if anyone has an opinion on wether a Jungle Fox / Dirt Wizard combo would fit? Reading between the lines it appears it may just but would love to hear what you all think.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim.johnston View Post
    Keep returning to this thread hoping that somehow clearances have magically expanded since my last visit.

    Have two 29+ bikes now and really can't see ever dropping in size, the format really suits me. So the full suss question pops up all the time and not having the money at the moment to go down the Lenz route or custom, I end back here.

    Have the opportunity to grab a mint Phantom second hand and would be grateful if anyone has an opinion on wether a Jungle Fox / Dirt Wizard combo would fit? Reading between the lines it appears it may just but would love to hear what you all think.
    I'm running 29+ Dirt Wizards on my Prime...

    You have to purchase the 650b dropouts to get enough clearance in the rear...those dropouts move the rear axle back about 10 mm on the Prime/Phantom.

    Banshee V2 142mm 650B Drop Outs > Components > Frames > Frame Parts | Jenson USA

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbsocal View Post
    I'm running 29+ Dirt Wizards on my Prime...

    You have to purchase the 650b dropouts to get enough clearance in the rear...those dropouts move the rear axle back about 10 mm on the Prime/Phantom.

    Banshee V2 142mm 650B Drop Outs > Components > Frames > Frame Parts | Jenson USA
    Thanks, I am aware that is the way to go and would be purchasing the dropouts. It is the Junglefox being in the mix that worries me. I have been told Chupacabras on Junglefox will not be an option width wise, but the Dirt Wizards are much skinnier on the Carcass width so was hoping they would fit?

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim.johnston View Post
    Thanks, I am aware that is the way to go and would be purchasing the dropouts. It is the Junglefox being in the mix that worries me. I have been told Chupacabras on Junglefox will not be an option width wise, but the Dirt Wizards are much skinnier on the Carcass width so was hoping they would fit?
    I'm running 35 mm Fatties (I do have 941's...but with 2.5 DHFs mounted)...doesn't seem like that wide of a rim would clear...will post a pick later of my current clearance if you want to see it...not sure if the phantom width is the same.

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    That would be great if you have the time, would love to see, but it looks like you've answered my question, 50mm rims will be too much even with the skinnier tyres then. Shame, love the Junglefox and would not want to go smaller. Might start saving those pennies for a Lenz.

  99. #99
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    I can post a pic of a Dually45 with 2.4" Ardent or Chunky Monkey, unfortunately don't have the end caps for 142x12 or I could post them with Chronicle or BFT. Will look at an accurate way to maybe do that with the 135mm ends. You could also go the 650B+ route to get the same high volume, big contact patch thing going without needing to run the 65-B drop outs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim.johnston View Post
    That would be great if you have the time, would love to see, but it looks like you've answered my question, 50mm rims will be too much even with the skinnier tyres then. Shame, love the Junglefox and would not want to go smaller. Might start saving those pennies for a Lenz.
    Didn't notice that much difference running 2.5 on 35 mm Fatties vs 41 mm (941's have more spokes and feel a bit stiffer...but I am not hard on wheels), never been on anything wider.




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    Thanks jbsocal. Looks promising, I have just measured my Dirt Wizards on Junglefox, been used for ages and sitting at 15 psi they were 72mm at the outer tread and 68mm on the carcass. Think this will work?

  102. #102
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    Definitely want 29+ and wide rims, not at all interested in B+. Love the height and float of a wide rim and a tall tyre ( not that the Dirt Wizards are that tall ). Thanks for the offer of pics.

  103. #103
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    Finally...some updates to this thread!! Looks like 2.8"ish is the way to go based on good clearance.

  104. #104
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    Thanks for everyones help, I've just placed my order for a Phantom and the 650b dropouts. I'm hoping the Dirt Wizards are going to leave 4mm each side on the chainstay with the Junglefox rims based on my measurements of 72mm outside knobs and the 81mm chainstay width posted earlier. If not I have some minions to put on there or even an old 30mm Flow if needs be. Will post pics of the DW/junglefox clearance when it arrives.

  105. #105
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    50mm Junglefox with Dirt Wizards 29x3.0 fits comfortably, with a good 3 to 4 mm clearance on the side and bags upfront with the 650b dropouts.

    Pictures here with the 650b dropouts. I tried with the normal ones and it was doable as well, with the Dirt Wizard not being that tall. Better mud clearance this way though and it will be how I'm going to run it.

    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-01.jpgB+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-02.jpgB+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-03.jpg

    Also if anyone is interested the 2016 frame size large with dropouts + seat collar is 3740g / 8.25 pounds.

  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by tim.johnston View Post
    Also if anyone is interested the 2016 frame size large with dropouts + seat collar is 3740g / 8.25 pounds.
    Yikes.
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  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHeller View Post
    Yikes.
    Shock included?

    I don't really care about the weight of my prime, I care about the fact I have a bike that hasn't let me down! Now I care about getting carbon wheels and stuffing some fat rubber in the back....and front too if that is how she wants it.

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonshonda View Post
    Shock included?

    I don't really care about the weight of my prime, I care about the fact I have a bike that hasn't let me down! Now I care about getting carbon wheels and stuffing some fat rubber in the back....and front too if that is how she wants it.
    Yes, shock included. First ride yesterday, very impressed with the geometry and the shock and having the beefy wheels is just the icing on the cake. Having ridden hardtails for the last six months this feels like amazing.

    final weight was a hair over 30 pounds, but the stiffness of the frame and the traction and relatively light weight of the wheels makes it feel like a much lighter bike.

  109. #109
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    Selling my XL Raw Prime if anyone is interested:

    Get yourself one of the only FS 29er, 29+, 650b capable frames on the market. Cane Creek DB w/ Ti Spring, new bearings, and extra dropouts.

    2014 Banshee Prime w/ CCDB Ti Spring Extra Dropouts - Buy and Sell and Review Mountain Bikes and Accessories

  110. #110
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    Great price!

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    Really want a short travel trail bike that rips (and I remember how sweet the Phantom rode), anybody who is tinkering with just good old 650B (nothing plus size) Wheels on a Phantom??
    And if so, what are the snags (low BB etc.), if any?
    (thinking of running fairly wide rims with 2.4 Maxxis tires)

    Cheers
    Thomas

  112. #112
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    Why wouldn't you just get a Spitfire?
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    I have ridden both, and 140mm is just to much travel for Denmark, stack is also quite low on the Spitfire compared to the Phantom.
    I'm looking for that pop-feeling that the Phantom has, just with smaller wheels (otherwise it's going to be a Transition Scout, I just really like the KS suspension platform)

  114. #114
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    Well a Scout would probably be lighter by a pound or so.

    5010 V2 would be lighter than than both those.
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  115. #115
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    Not a weight issue and not a fan of Santa Cruz..
    Just want to hear if somebody out there have tried it out on their Phantom..

    I'm not looking for an alternative, I really like the Phantom platform and think the 105mm of travel is just spot on, and if will take 650B (without supersizing it or otherwise mess up the geo) I'm game..

  116. #116
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    Dude, if you don't have trails with lots of rocks gardens and big rocks that are tight you need to pedal through, then yeah it would work, BB would drop by about 3/4" which would give you somewhere around a 12.4" high in the slackest setting and about 12.8" in the high setting.

    Personally, I tried 650B on my Prime a couple years back when Maxxis was testing tyres and for me they really didn't spin up much, if any faster and definitely provided less everything. I just was not impressed at all, now 650B+ on the other hand, very interesting indeed, you get the sort of traction/grip of a 29er, but much more cush/small bump compliance from the more voluminous tyres and can run lesser tread to get all that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kofoed View Post
    Really want a short travel trail bike that rips (and I remember how sweet the Phantom rode), anybody who is tinkering with just good old 650B (nothing plus size) Wheels on a Phantom??
    And if so, what are the snags (low BB etc.), if any?
    (thinking of running fairly wide rims with 2.4 Maxxis tires)

    Cheers
    Thomas
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  117. #117
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    Just thought I'd throw this up there since it deals with the thread title. Built a set of WTB Asym i35/Pro2 EVO wheels to test B+ on my Paradox and anything else it might work on. Finished testing on the Paradox, it's great, adds loads of cush to the rear and don't really notice the slightly smaller diameter roll over, grip is great too now with the 2.8" Nobby Nics.

    So now I'm done testing them on the HT, time to throw them on the Phantom and give it a go, expecting it to be a lot of fun, curious if I'll get more less or about the same grip with the B+ setup as with my old trust worthy On One 2.4" CM/2.25" SB combo. Will report back after I have a few good rides on them, first was sposed to be today, but couldn't make it, so hoping for Sat or Sunday.

    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-dscn4395_web.jpg
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  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Just thought I'd throw this up there since it deals with the thread title. Built a set of WTB Asym i35/Pro2 EVO wheels to test B+ on my Paradox and anything else it might work on. Finished testing on the Paradox, it's great, adds loads of cush to the rear and don't really notice the slightly smaller diameter roll over, grip is great too now with the 2.8" Nobby Nics.

    So now I'm done testing them on the HT, time to throw them on the Phantom and give it a go, expecting it to be a lot of fun, curious if I'll get more less or about the same grip with the B+ setup as with my old trust worthy On One 2.4" CM/2.25" SB combo. Will report back after I have a few good rides on them, first was sposed to be today, but couldn't make it, so hoping for Sat or Sunday.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Any updates on your thoughts of the 27.5"+ NN's compared to the CM and SB 29" tires on the Phantom? Any close up pics of tire clearance with the NN's?

  119. #119
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    I'm back on my 29er setup. To be fair and honest, I only spent a couple weeks with them, about 5 rides, so maybe did not give myself enough time to get accustomed to the Nics (had been riding them a good few weeks on the Paradox), but never quite trusted to push them as hard as I ride the Phantom. When I put back on my 29er wheels felt so much more at home and confident, bike feels more agile, even though weights wise there isn't much difference between the B+ and 29er set. Gobs of traction with the B+ setup for climbing, most definitely made it up some stuff, easily that I struggle on with the skinnier tyres. Those wheels are now back where they belong on my Paradox, but when I get the Rekons in in a bit, I'll prob give them a go on the Phantom again and see how it goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by noosa2 View Post
    Any updates on your thoughts of the 27.5"+ NN's compared to the CM and SB 29" tires on the Phantom? Any close up pics of tire clearance with the NN's?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    I'm back on my 29er setup. To be fair and honest, I only spent a couple weeks with them, about 5 rides, so maybe did not give myself enough time to get accustomed to the Nics (had been riding them a good few weeks on the Paradox), but never quite trusted to push them as hard as I ride the Phantom. When I put back on my 29er wheels felt so much more at home and confident, bike feels more agile, even though weights wise there isn't much difference between the B+ and 29er set. Gobs of traction with the B+ setup for climbing, most definitely made it up some stuff, easily that I struggle on with the skinnier tyres. Those wheels are now back where they belong on my Paradox, but when I get the Rekons in in a bit, I'll prob give them a go on the Phantom again and see how it goes.
    Thanks. What kind of space do you have between the NN and the stays? Could you fit a 3.0" tire?

  121. #121
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    You could fit a 3.0" tyre with very decent clearance, but I wouldn't feel comfortable if I needed any clearance for mud. Also I've settled on 2.8" as the biggest I want to go on an FS. I did fit a 3.0" 29+ in there when I first got my 29+ wheelset, pics should be back in this thread someplace.

    Quote Originally Posted by noosa2 View Post
    Thanks. What kind of space do you have between the NN and the stays? Could you fit a 3.0" tire?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold
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  122. #122
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    Based on this and a couple other threads, along with what appears to be spot on geometry (for me at least), I've just ordered one of the few remaining 2016 Phantoms. Can't wait to build her up and attack my local trails.

  123. #123
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    Can't wait to see some scale shots of the new 2017 frames. Hoping that the weight is more competitive with similar travel trail bikes (under 6.75lbs without shock).
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  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbine_275 View Post
    Based on this and a couple other threads, along with what appears to be spot on geometry (for me at least), I've just ordered one of the few remaining 2016 Phantoms. Can't wait to build her up and attack my local trails.
    I did the same thing, the phantom does not disappoint in b+ guise.

    Set up in the steep angle, with a 130mm fork = zero pedal strikes my trails.

  125. #125
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    I've got a set of B+ wheels and I gave a WTB Trailblazer/Trailboss combo a go on the Phantom as well as Nobby Nics and did not prefer them to my regular 29er setup, however I also will soon have some Maxxis Rekons and will give them a go, see if maybe I just didn't have the right tyre to like B+ on the Phantom.
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    Guys

    I'm also interested in trying 29+ on my Prime (LB 31,8 rims).

    Actually i was interested in Chronicles or WTB Ranger
    Fromm what You write the 650 dropouts are welcomed and better 160mm PIKE shaft - correct me if i'm wrong?


    What about feelings in real world, asking as now i use some heave Magic Marry and Hans Dampf which actually are grippy but not fast neither comfortable.
    How do You feel rolling resistance and overall comfort?

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    Cross posted from the +bike forum...

    First ride on my Banshee Phantom 27.5+, which inherited the fork and wheelset from my Bantam. A little bit more clearance than the Bantam, plus a much better pedaling platform to put the power down with. Surly Dirt Wizard 27.5x3.0 on Spank OozyTrail395+ rims.





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  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Placek View Post
    Guys

    I'm also interested in trying 29+ on my Prime (LB 31,8 rims).

    Actually i was interested in Chronicles or WTB Ranger
    Fromm what You write the 650 dropouts are welcomed and better 160mm PIKE shaft - correct me if i'm wrong?


    What about feelings in real world, asking as now i use some heave Magic Marry and Hans Dampf which actually are grippy but not fast neither comfortable.
    How do You feel rolling resistance and overall comfort?
    I'll say this, I know it's kind of comparing apples to oranges, but my bud just got a Haro Shift+ and the difference in rolling resistence/speed is unreal.

    If he's in front of me now I'm constantly pumping or pedalling trying to match speed on slight down hills and he's sitting down cruising.

    Was on an HD set, just switched the rear to a Muddy Mary on my Spitfire. He's on 3.0 Purgatories.

    Having ridden it too, I don't notice a huge difference going from my 6" front to his 3. The high volume tires take a lot of abuse.

    I'm sure it would be a ripping good time on the Prime.
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  129. #129
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    Sorry but i didn't catch.
    Do You mean + size compared to regular agressive size brings better rolling resistance ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattyice View Post
    I'll say this, I know it's kind of comparing apples to oranges, but my bud just got a Haro Shift+ and the difference in rolling resistence/speed is unreal.

    If he's in front of me now I'm constantly pumping or pedalling trying to match speed on slight down hills and he's sitting down cruising.

    Was on an HD set, just switched the rear to a Muddy Mary on my Spitfire. He's on 3.0 Purgatories.

    Having ridden it too, I don't notice a huge difference going from my 6" front to his 3. The high volume tires take a lot of abuse.

    I'm sure it would be a ripping good time on the Prime.

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Placek View Post
    Sorry but i didn't catch.
    Do You mean + size compared to regular agressive size brings better rolling resistance ?
    yes, any of us on our regular size tires (most are on 2.35's or 2.4's) compared to rolling behind someone on 3.0's is quite noticeable. the 3.0's rolling much better. A lot of it probably has to do with, the fact that you can have less tpi or less aggressive lugs and still get as much surface contact with less lug penetration, making for a good handling and grippy, but fast rolling tire.

    The handling characteristics of 3.0's are pretty unique and quite fun. It's very stable and comfortable at any lean angle, though It's a little less responsive to quick hops, leans, and quick roosts, naturally. overall fun though.

    My favorite characteristics coming from my 26" spitfire to the 650b+ shift are rock gardens. Even with the 6" front, at low speeds on the spitty I still find myself setting up for lines and snaking my way through, where possible. On the shift, it feels like you're on an unstoppable monster truck. Line choice? Who cares, hit it. 29+ with a longer travel fork would be a rock garden killer

    Like I said though it's kind of apples to oranges, things I don't like about the big wheel bike, is its not rowdy feeling like the Spitty and it seems skiddish to go skyward, different ride but totally fun.
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  131. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattyice View Post
    yes, any of us on our regular size tires (most are on 2.35's or 2.4's) compared to rolling behind someone on 3.0's is quite noticeable. the 3.0's rolling much better. A lot of it probably has to do with, the fact that you can have less tpi or less aggressive lugs and still get as much surface contact with less lug penetration, making for a good handling and grippy, but fast rolling tire.

    The handling characteristics of 3.0's are pretty unique and quite fun. It's very stable and comfortable at any lean angle, though It's a little less responsive to quick hops, leans, and quick roosts, naturally. overall fun though.

    My favorite characteristics coming from my 26" spitfire to the 650b+ shift are rock gardens. Even with the 6" front, at low speeds on the spitty I still find myself setting up for lines and snaking my way through, where possible. On the shift, it feels like you're on an unstoppable monster truck. Line choice? Who cares, hit it. 29+ with a longer travel fork would be a rock garden killer

    Like I said though it's kind of apples to oranges, things I don't like about the big wheel bike, is its not rowdy feeling like the Spitty and it seems skiddish to go skyward, different ride but totally fun.
    Thanks for this feedback.

    Don't want to raise here discussion on why oranges are better.
    My story begun with Conti RK 2.4.Awesome gun but with time was less and less confident. Probably because my skill improoved and slippery roots on fast trails decreased confidence.
    So ended up with 2,35 agressive Enduro/Dh Magic Mary and HD which indeed grip like crazy... but rolling resistance on flat, asphalt kiloWatts in agressive thread..

    So idea... maybe try 3.0 like Chronicle or Ranger. They look much like RK and have real hope that size and low pressure may justify missig agressive thread

    Summing it up, will + decrease rolling resistance without compromising grip of agressive tire?

  132. #132
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    Not sure if this answers your question Placek, but the wider tyres definitely offer more grip for a lesser tread type tyre because of the overall contact patch, just like 29ers offer more grip than their 26" counter parts because of their longer contact patch. I'll say it again, on a rigid or HT, I'm sold on true PLUS, but on an FS, I dunno, just doesn't seem to do it for me, but I guess if I had a lot of sand/find loose surface on my trails it might be different.
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    Souns logical as baloon tires work as mini susp.
    My trails are wooden, rooty, flat with many fast turns. Sometimes look on my Prime bored still my wrists shakung. This is why i consider mini suspension but don,'t want sacrify speed like i was on FB.

  134. #134
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    Riding the shift in MA terrain was a Party. 3" front by 4" rear. I thought it would be bouncy in all the roots and rocks and slippery in the loam. It was none of those things. It just feels like you have a lot more travel then you actually do. I could see on an HT, set up well it would certainly take out some of the seatpost sodomy.

    Handling on quick, unnatural turns (think old school hiking trails) isn't as quick and snappy as my spitty, but it's beyond capable of performing them.

    It's probably the best climbing bike anyone of our group has.

    Over all I came into plus bikes as I'd hate it and ended up loving it. Different animal. Loads of fun.

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  135. #135
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    Isn't that true improvement only for Rigid or HT. Does Prime also benefit out of fat tire?

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    I got some more time in on my B+ phantom, it keeps getting better and better.

    Fall means slippery hard pack, leaves and roots on the local loops. The tires and suspension stay planted and keep me upright with confidence.


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    digging all this + talk and its planted the bug
    i have a question tho , iam running a xfusion trace on my phantom whats the widest tire that it can take ? with out rubbing will a NN2.8 work or am i going to have to get a new fork also if i want to convert my phantom over to 27.5+ ?

    thanks

  138. #138
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    No TRACE will not fit a 29+ 3.0" tyre, contacts on arch. It will fit 650B+ 2.8" NN on i35mm rims with enough room to use, but a bit close where it bulges, but loads of room ontop. If you want to run true 29+, i.e. 3.0" tyres, time for a new fork, however if you just want more meat you could maybe fit a tyre like the FBN which is very undersized or try some of the new 29"x2.6" tyres now coming out. FYI with my Asym i29 rims I have loads of clearance for my 2.3" DHF/DHR2 and had good room with an On One Chunky Monkey 2.4", but think you'd be limited to a true 2.6" tyre due to tyre to arch contact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unforgiving View Post
    digging all this + talk and its planted the bug
    i have a question tho , iam running a xfusion trace on my phantom whats the widest tire that it can take ? with out rubbing will a NN2.8 work or am i going to have to get a new fork also if i want to convert my phantom over to 27.5+ ?

    thanks
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  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    No TRACE will not fit a 29+ 3.0" tyre, contacts on arch. It will fit 650B+ 2.8" NN on i35mm rims with enough room to use, but a bit close where it bulges, but loads of room ontop. If you want to run true 29+, i.e. 3.0" tyres, time for a new fork, however if you just want more meat you could maybe fit a tyre like the FBN which is very undersized or try some of the new 29"x2.6" tyres now coming out. FYI with my Asym i29 rims I have loads of clearance for my 2.3" DHF/DHR2 and had good room with an On One Chunky Monkey 2.4", but think you'd be limited to a true 2.6" tyre due to tyre to arch contact.
    just looking at going no larger than 2.8 27.5+ but would like to scrape by with the trace if i could

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stopbreakindown View Post
    I got some more time in on my B+ phantom, it keeps getting better and better.

    Fall means slippery hard pack, leaves and roots on the local loops. The tires and suspension stay planted and keep me upright with confidence.

    Are those 2.8 Nobby nics ? What rims ? Just trying to peice together the best setup for my b+ conversion !

  141. #141
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    They are 2.8 nobby nics on i29.7mm rims, just enough room for mud. If I had the cash I would go with a Rekon+ F&R for where I ride or a Ikon+rear/Rekon+

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    Rekon+ and 35mm rims like the wtb asym still provide clearance i wonder ? What about scrapers hmmm to wide maybe ? Still with a 2.8 tho. ?

  143. #143
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    I think i30-i35 are the sweetspot for the 2.8s and i40-i45 for the 3.0 which I have for the summer wheelset for the fatbike.

    Going back to 29" rims next season, building up some Asym i35s and wrap them with some 2.5-2.7" rubber and see how that works.

    Just tinkerin'

  144. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unforgiving View Post
    Rekon+ and 35mm rims like the wtb asym still provide clearance i wonder ? What about scrapers hmmm to wide maybe ? Still with a 2.8 tho. ?
    I have Rekon+ on Spank OozyTrail395+ (35mm internal) as the rear tire on my Phantom. Plenty of clearance to the stays.

    Update: There is approximately 8mm to the stays on both sides
    Last edited by carbine_275; 11-25-2016 at 03:03 PM.

  145. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbine_275 View Post
    I have Rekon+ on Spank OozyTrail395+ (35mm internal) as the rear tire on my Phantom. Plenty of clearance to the stays.

    Update: There is approximately 8mm to the stays on both sides
    is that with 650b dropouts or the standard ones ?

  146. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unforgiving View Post
    is that with 650b dropouts or the standard ones ?
    The standard 26/29 dropouts. Easily 20mm+ clearance to the swingarm cross bracing. Only reason to go with 650b dropouts are for 29+.

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    ok thanks for the reply , iam about to pull the trigger on some new rims for xmas to do a 27.5+ conversion i just dont know if i want the spank 395s or the scraper I40s

    prob going to be running rekon in rear and possibly front or a dhf havent decided yet on the front , i ran a 2.3 dhf in the summer and it was great but with the + sizing the rekon might be enough tread

    the other thing is iam in a rock and a hard place with my fork , i have a Xfusion trace , i dont know if i should get the hoops laced to my existing 100mm hub or sell the trace and get a boost fork and hub = just way more money , basically not sure if the trace will take a 2.8 in 27.5 form arggghhhh

  148. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unforgiving View Post
    ok thanks for the reply , iam about to pull the trigger on some new rims for xmas to do a 27.5+ conversion i just dont know if i want the spank 395s or the scraper I40s

    prob going to be running rekon in rear and possibly front or a dhf havent decided yet on the front , i ran a 2.3 dhf in the summer and it was great but with the + sizing the rekon might be enough tread

    the other thing is iam in a rock and a hard place with my fork , i have a Xfusion trace , i dont know if i should get the hoops laced to my existing 100mm hub or sell the trace and get a boost fork and hub = just way more money , basically not sure if the trace will take a 2.8 in 27.5 form arggghhhh
    The Spank 395's have been great for me, and 35mm internal width is the sweet spot for 2.8" tires.

    For your fork, check the following thread from the + bikes forum: https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...7&share_type=t
    27.5+ Fork Compatibility

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  149. #149
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    I know this is an old thread but it's the top hit on google if your looking for prime or phantom tire clearance. I have a 2017 prime frame with the compact 148 boost dropouts, wtb i35 wheels and wtb 27.5 trail boss 3.0's. They rub in the back, it's pretty close but not ridable. I'm going to order some long dropouts but I don't think it will buy me more than 1mm on each side. Im not sure if the boost / wheel dishing is messing with the center of the wheel but it's rubbing on the non drive side.

    These wtb 27.5 i35 wheels with wtb trail boss 3.0's are measuring 75mm wide. Chainstays on the frame are measuring 81mm.
    Last edited by Pedal Bob; 05-28-2017 at 07:17 PM. Reason: Added tire and chainstay measurements!

  150. #150
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    Just as an update, on a 2017 prime running long boost dropouts it is a little better but still rubs a tiny tiny bit with these i35 rims and trail boss 3.0 275

    I had a set of 142 long that i used for a few weeks while waiting for a fork and boost wheelset, there's a lot of space between the boost 148 dropouts before you tighten the axle, just for fun I installed the 142 long on the brake side and 148 long on the drive side and the boost hub slides in and out fine, it centered the tire and eliminated the rub, didn't have any brake rotor or cassette spacing issues, rode it around the block and it worked great, probably could space the crank a tiny bit to give the chain more clearance from the tire when in the biggest cassette ring.

    Thought I'd share my experiment, not recommending this, unsure of the long term effects on components, I'm going to a 2.8 ranger in the back. But this worked really well for a short ride.

  151. #151
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    Really digging the 29x2.6 Schwalbe NN on WTB Asym i35

    Just got a 24 mile test on them through every type of trail surface possible in our area, just enough mud clearance, griped everything really well, rolled over roots, carried momentum through stream crossings.

    Very happy camper


  152. #152
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    What version are you running, are these out now in the new Addix compounds/casings? I found the 2.8"xB+ Nobby Nic PaceStar SS I have worked quite well all over, in the dry, but really weren't that great in/on the wet, wondering if the TrailStar compound really changes that fact Accustomed to Maxxis rubber, normally 3C front, swapping from the PS NN to a 3C Rekon+ was a huge improvement , especially when things were wet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stopbreakindown View Post
    Really digging the 29x2.6 Schwalbe NN on WTB Asym i35.
    Just got a 24 mile test on them through every type of trail surface possible in our area, just enough mud clearance, griped everything really well, rolled over roots, carried momentum through stream crossings.

    Very happy camper
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  153. #153
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    I've run my phantom in B+ mode from day 1, and finally decided to try it as designed with 29's to see what I might be missing. Haven't liked it one bit after 3 rides. The strange thing is that I don't have any issues climbing or turns, but struggling with the lack of acceleration. As a result, I'm having to expend more energy to get up to speed. Is it possible that 29's just aren't going to work for me?


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  154. #154
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    If that's the case, then more than likely then. Me personally, I have never encountered this "harder to spin up" that people talk about with 29ers, not even when I switched from a 26" to 29", all I noticed was I could push a gear or 2 harder on climbs with less aggressive tyres and make climbs 99% that I was 60/40% on my 26er.

    I found B+ took away what I love about the Phantom, but accentuated what I love about the Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by carbine_275 View Post
    I've run my phantom in B+ mode from day 1, and finally decided to try it as designed with 29's to see what I might be missing. Haven't liked it one bit after 3 rides. The strange thing is that I don't have any issues climbing or turns, but struggling with the lack of acceleration. As a result, I'm having to expend more energy to get up to speed. Is it possible that 29's just aren't going to work for me?
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  155. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    If that's the case, then more than likely then. Me personally, I have never encountered this "harder to spin up" that people talk about with 29ers, not even when I switched from a 26" to 29", all I noticed was I could push a gear or 2 harder on climbs with less aggressive tyres and make climbs 99% that I was 60/40% on my 26er.

    I found B+ took away what I love about the Phantom, but accentuated what I love about the Prime
    I suppose that it's possible that I simply haven't given them a fair chance yet, and that I'm not at the point where I fully trust the 29's.

    The simplest way for me to describe the difference so far is that 27.5=fun, where 29=work.

  156. #156
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    Yeah, I kind of describe it reverse I'd say, the B+ feels dead and plowy, not as poppy and easy to move about, not as much input needed from the rider, just more plow, which for me takes away from why I love the Phantom, already have those traits in my Prime.
    Quote Originally Posted by carbine_275 View Post
    I suppose that it's possible that I simply haven't given them a fair chance yet, and that I'm not at the point where I fully trust the 29's.

    The simplest way for me to describe the difference so far is that 27.5=fun, where 29=work.
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  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by LyNx View Post
    Yeah, I kind of describe it reverse I'd say, the B+ feels dead and plowy, not as poppy and easy to move about, not as much input needed from the rider, just more plow, which for me takes away from why I love the Phantom, already have those traits in my Prime.
    The 29's did give me the confidence to attack a large log pile I've never even considered going over previously, which I now clear every time, so they're not all bad. I'll give the 29's a few more rides before making the decision to break them down and sell off the rims.

  158. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbine_275 View Post
    The 29's did give me the confidence to attack a large log pile I've never even considered going over previously, which I now clear every time, so they're not all bad. I'll give the 29's a few more rides before making the decision to break them down and sell off the rims.
    I would stick it out for a while, I like B+ for more technical trail riding and jumps, but the 29 / 29+ is rad for my weekly grinds and regular trail riding. I feel like 29 really carries momentum much better through rolling terrain and takes less work to keep moving once you're up to speed.

    I've been keeping an eye out for a deal on those nobby nic's! Chain reaction has the addix version on the site but they aren't available for purchase.

  159. #159
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    Just tested my Prime on 27,5+ NoNic 3.0 and RoRo2.8
    Banshee Prime 29 vs 27,5+ - Placek's Bike Check - Vital MTB

    It's amazing how grippy it is....not grippy but sticky.


    My porevious 29 setup was Magic Mary and Rock Razor and that was a RAZOR setup , bitig the ground and feeling quite rough.
    The 27,5+ is much stickier, dosn't bite but glue to the groud giving bouncier feeling.
    Initial impressions on "+" setup is great despite the tires are not so agressive.

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    Sweet looking stealth, here's mine in raw with those 27.5 3.0 trail bosses that rub in the back...

    B+ PRIME (or Phantom). Let's talk about it.-img_1547.jpg

  161. #161
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    B+ on the Prime absolutely compliments it's natural characteristics, really does, plow factor goes to 11

    Nice looking Prime BTW, am a lover of Raw myself, all 3 of my personal Banshees were raw with clear coat and stripped them to just plain raw with polishing compound.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedal Bob View Post
    Sweet looking stealth, here's mine in raw with those 27.5 3.0 trail bosses that rub in the back...

    Click image for larger version. 

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