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  1. #1
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    Will This New Sedona Trail Turn Out to Be a DUD

    Today I took my wife on a hike on the new alignment of the Thunder Mt trial that runs between the Tea Cup and Chimney Rock trail. We hiked the trail from west to east.

    The west end has been brushed and the trail tread is partially completed. The east end is completed to the mid point of the total alignment.

    What I find interesting is that we are being told this trail is going to be technical for hardcore riders, when really it is also going to be almost impossible to ride many sections going uphill.

    If you have ever ridden Captain Ahab or to the top of Gold Bar Rim, you know that there is a difficult climb to access the really fun technical part of the trail. I don't believe that many Sedona riders are going to ride this new alignment more than once to access the fun technical downhill part on either side of the highpoint.

    If the new alignment were to access the Triple H trails, I would say OK I will suffer with that suckie climb side it's only 300 to 400 yards long.

    If you get a chance ride the east side to the middle and take a look at the climb section, give us you opinion. What's cool about the USFS in Sedona you can ride our trails while they are under construction. The trail tread on the the new build is somewhat soft due to the lack of moisture over the last month, so don't expect a packed in surface at this point.

  2. #2
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    Don't question the 1%ers.

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    Phillbo I think the 1%'ers are going to love the long challenging uphill sections of this new trail. I have been marketing the trail as having great views, but my wife thought the view wasn't that good on the west end because it look right down on the West Sedona and you could hear highway noise.

    I think if you live in the neighborhood near the trail will be a great 1.5 hour hike when you hook it up to the Andante trail.

    I think the main goal of the reroute was to make a more sustainable route of the original Thunder Mt trail. While hiking the trail today one of the trail builders told me he worked on the original TM alignment which is now an erosion nightmare. He said when they built that trail some 20 years ago it was totally rideable.

    My concern with the new alignment is that during heavy rain periods the trail will develop numerous eroded sections that will need above normal maintenance to allow for the 1%'ers to ride it uphill. The hiking community will always be able to hike the trail without dabbing because they are hikers.

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  6. #6
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    Last edited by Phillbo; 04-21-2017 at 12:21 PM.

  7. #7
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    Switch, why not reserve judgment until the reroute is completed? TM always sucked and I'm not sure it was ever "built" per say. Even back in the late 80s/early 90s it sucked and Anadante was the preferred connector between Dry Creek/Lizard Head and Teacup.

    The trail building goal is an advanced technical trail. That can apply to uphill as well as downhill. As long as there are smooth transitions between tech features where's the beef? Not sure how you can get a feel for how a trail is going to ride by walking it, especially before it is completed and not ready for prime time. Hopefully they get it right but either way it's cool that that a trail is being designed to be technical rather than it becoming that way through erosion and poor layout. Celebrate don't denigrate!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Switch, why not reserve judgment until the reroute is completed? TM always sucked and I'm not sure it was ever "built" per say. Even back in the late 80s/early 90s it sucked and Anadante was the preferred connector between Dry Creek/Lizard Head and Teacup.

    The trail building goal is an advanced technical trail. That can apply to uphill as well as downhill. As long as there are smooth transitions between tech features where's the beef? Not sure how you can get a feel for how a trail is going to ride by walking it, especially before it is completed and not ready for prime time. Hopefully they get it right but either way it's cool that that a trail is being designed to be technical rather than it becoming that way through erosion and poor layout. Celebrate don't denigrate!
    rockman do you ever get motivated because someone tells you that what you are doing will not work? The hardcore riders that have built the trail from east to west claim it is an intermediate trail to the 50% point.

    My video documentary of the trail build verifies that feeling. The next 10% of the trail is a steep intermediate uphill slog with no tech unless a steep miserable climb is considered tech. Up to this point the trail has been routed in easy terrain rather than rugged terrain.

    At the 60% point every thing changes terrain wise. You are now close to the steep rocky base of Thunder Mt. where water coming off the mountain is hauling ass. There are numerous drainages eroded into the mountainside that needs to be crossed.

    The Hiline trail is a good example of those drainages that needed crossing. On Hiline there are maybe four significant drainages that needed crossing. On TM there are maybe twelve and a number of those are very significant with huge builds to make them rideable therefore they maybe techy depending on the crew (volunteer, ACE or USFS) who builds them.

    There is no way that numerous sections about 60% into the ride won't be in your face technical uphill masterpieces that climbers like yourself will enjoy bursting your lungs and continue uphill to the 75% point where the trail goes intermediate for a short section to recover a little until the next steep uphill very technical section.

    At this point you are about 80% into the ride heading west and the trail starts heading down with numerous difficult to build drainage crossings. At the 90% point the trail heads down this soft soil very steep side slope formation that will always be a maintenance nightmare if it isn't constructed properly with lots of outsloping and grade reversals.

    The last 5% weaves down a huge steep drainage area to intersect the original TM trail.

  9. #9
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    Well, since the same guy that routed HiLine and Slim Shady is routing the trail I'll hold off on calling it a dud until riding it. Perhaps you should do the same or post your documentary or some pics so we can assess whether your concerns are valid. Or, post in the trail building/advocacy forum for opinions on the build.

    Just a silly thought but since this is a silly thread maybe it's meant to be ridden west to east?

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    rockman I have a new HP laptop in Flagstaff that I am going to use to edit the video maybe you can bring it down for me. I was wondering if you were going to bring up the trailbulder of Hiline and you have, so that adds another demension.

    Plumber Phil has been researching this alignment for two years. He and Jennifer have been looking at this reroute for a long time. Recently PP has gone to all the prior trail builders and asked them to join in on the fun of building this PP masterpiece. He sold it to them as a master tech fest trail. At this point those builders have either resigned or didn't think the project would be something they wanted to be associated with.

    When you have built one of the three H's you have some kind of idea what's going to be doable, unless your ego has gotten so BIG you have lost touch with reality.

    For the 1%'era like yourself it will maybe your favorite trail. You said the new Heart alignment had several difficult build sections. You need to come down and look at this alignment to see how to build the Heart trail.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    rockman I have a new HP laptop in Flagstaff that I am going to use to edit the video maybe you can bring it down for me. I was wondering if you were going to bring up the trailbulder of Hiline and you have, so that adds another demension.

    Plumber Phil has been researching this alignment for two years. He and Jennifer have been looking at this reroute for a long time. Recently PP has gone to all the prior trail builders and asked them to join in on the fun of building this PP masterpiece. He sold it to them as a master tech fest trail. At this point those builders have either resigned or didn't think the project would be something they wanted to be associated with.

    When you have built one of the three H's you have some kind of idea what's going to be doable, unless your ego has gotten so BIG you have lost touch with reality.

    For the 1%'era like yourself it will maybe your favorite trail. You said the new Heart alignment had several difficult build sections. You need to come down and look at this alignment to see how to build the Heart trail.
    Actually I didn't say that about the Heart Trail. It will by 95% bench cut if and when it happens. As for TM, hopefully the trailbuilder will get to see his vision carried through before the FS gets anxious about community buy-in and jams in a dumbed down version.

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Actually I didn't say that about the Heart Trail. It will by 95% bench cut if and when it happens. As for TM, hopefully the trailbuilder will get to see his vision carried through before the FS gets anxious about community buy-in and jams in a dumbed down version.
    The line isn't changing. It has been 99% brushed and the small rocks moved showing the route. If this new alignment isn't a DUD for the 99%'ers I am going to look like I am have no clue about cool trail routing. My reputation my be destroyed.

  14. #14
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    Seemingly pointless thread is seemingly pointless.


    Or it's a cry for help.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    Seemingly pointless thread is seemingly pointless.


    Or it's a cry for help.....
    It's kind of funny how the extreme right loves to bash the millennials and liberals and calls them snowflakes but yet a sad and desperate cry for attention is all just so.......Trumptastic!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    Seemingly pointless thread is seemingly pointless.


    Or it's a cry for help.....
    OK OK I am working on a short video to show the difficult sections. I feel like my credibility is on the line. I am just trying to give up to date on what the USFS is trying to accomplish in Sedona to make it a WORLD CLASS MOUNTAIN BIKE DESTINATION.

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    OK I went to a City of Sedona lunch yesterday that honored volunteers who helped the city on a number of city projects. It was really nice and the mayor was there to thank the attendees for helping make Sedona a great place to live. One of the attendees was a bike shop owner. He said the concept of the new TM trail is to help take the load off other other popular trailheads. I assume he means: Dry Creek Vista, Cathedral, Soldiers Wash, Bell Rock Vista, Littlehorse, Boyonton and Doe Mt.

    I think that is a worthy idea. From a mountain biking perspective you will need a very fun challenging trail to attrack the highly skilled riders who love climbing.

    I think they ought to market the new alignment as a World Class technical
    uphill extravaganza. At each end of the trail where the technical features end you could put in a small loop so you could turn around without stopping and ride the new trail as an out and back.

    None of the Triple H's can be ridden currently as out and backs. We use to ride Hog Heaven as an out and back but that is no longer possible. It was really fun riding that trail uphill and maybe Plumber Phil can do the same with TM.

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    I can see a lot of interest from the 5%'ers on this new Sedona trail. I hiked the trail today and I can guarantee if you love technical uphill riding this trail is what you are dreaming about.

    The steep climbing sections will have lots of chunky rock in the trail tread to keep you doing numerous hike a bike climbs, but each section is totally rideable by Hans Ray and Danny MacAskill.

    This trail will build your skill level to a 1%'er status. Please come out this Saturday and help out with the building of a super technical feature.

    Meeting spot is the Andante trailhead at 9:00 AM.

  19. #19
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    Today several Sedona mountain bikers, ACE crew and USFS personell headed up on the Thunder Mountain Reroute project to build some new trail. This video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuI-B9IhcTo ) provides some insight as to what the current status is of the high skilled climbing section and several of the technical features.

    The remaining 25% of the trail on the West end still needs to be constructed. If you have some spare time please join in and help with this new project.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Can't wait to bomb it on my eBike
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    Tires are dependent on your %'er.

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    I went up on the new trail today and noticed that there were some tire tracks on the new tread. It would be interesting if the rider was a MTBR viewer. It sure would nice to get some feedback from someone who has actually ridden the trail.

    I did see that Jennifer was up on the trail today checking out the work. Since she is president of the Sedona Red Rock Trail Fund she was hopefully checking to see if the money going to build this trail was being spent wisely.

    If you ride the trail please let us know how you like it.

  24. #24
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    So, is the full reroute now complete or still a work in progress? If the latter, when is the anticipated completion date? I'll gladly put tires on it next time I'm up there.
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    The route is about 75% complete to about 150 yards down the the west side. I am getting mixed messages on when it will be 100% completed. Some say the Fall, but the current progress seems sooner than that.

    The hardest build section is coming up soon and I am not sure how much work resource is being put into that section. ACE is coming out Wed with their crew of ten people. They are working thru Sat. then they will be back again the following Wed thru Sat.

    The west side going east is probably going to be the most difficult climb section, so currently riding as an out and back from the east end works good. The west end is scratched in so it would be easy to hike or ride what's doable for your skill level.

  26. #26
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    Wow! from the video that looks like a fun trail as it is and looking like it will be a great trail when done. I am glad to see it's not being built using a bobcat to just scrap it smooth.
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  27. #27
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    I likey it will be on my list of future trails to check out.
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    TB we need you and Clockwork to ride this new trail. After your done please do a write up that can be used in the Trailforks trail description. I like to get the Intel out to the mountain bike community as quick as possible so riders can add new worthy trails to their ride plan.

    I personally am not sure how this trail fits into a normal 12 mile ride, but I am sure you can come up with something good to attract riders who might be heading to other destinations.

    I think they will have invested over $30,000 in this trail by the time it's completed. It hard to know what the actual costs are in building new trails the USFS works on.

  29. #29
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    Its possible I might be up that way in the next week. I will see if I have the time to squeeze it in this time although I was hoping for a 17-20 mile loop along the lines of what we rode the last time we rode together up there as I will have lesser experienced/conditioned riders with me that I just beat down in moab this past weekend.
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    TB we need you and Clockwork to ride this new trail. After your done please do a write up that can be used in the Trailforks trail description. I like to get the Intel out to the mountain bike community as quick as possible so riders can add new worthy trails to their ride plan.

    I personally am not sure how this trail fits into a normal 12 mile ride, but I am sure you can come up with something good to attract riders who might be heading to other destinations.

    I think they will have invested over $30,000 in this trail by the time it's completed. It hard to know what the actual costs are in building new trails the USFS works on.
    $30,000? Those are some expensive volunteers.

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    Well the Sedona Red Rock Trail Fund was given $50,000 by the City of Sedona to improve and realign the Thunder Mt., Andante, Tea Cup trails. The new Thunder Mt. portion has been the biggest project on the agenda and it isn't completed yet. You have a great relationship with Jennifer, just give her a friendly email and get the numbers of how much she is sending the USFS out of the Trail Fund.

    On the last volunteer day maybe five volunteers showed up. The major players weren't there which was kind of strange because the last section the volunteers worked on could have had a lot more technical features for the 5%'ers, as it turned out it's kind of intermediate.

    Do you have any idea what a ten person ACE crew charges each day?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Well the Sedona Red Rock Trail Fund was given $50,000 by the City of Sedona to improve and realign the Thunder Mt., Andante, Tea Cup trails. The new Thunder Mt. portion has been the biggest project on the agenda and it isn't completed yet. You have a great relationship with Jennifer, just give her a friendly email and get the numbers of how much she is sending the USFS out of the Trail Fund.

    On the last volunteer day maybe five volunteers showed up. The major players weren't there which was kind of strange because the last section the volunteers worked on could have had a lot more technical features for the 5%'ers, as it turned out it's kind of intermediate.

    Do you have any idea what a ten person ACE crew charges each day?
    It's none of my business so I'll pass on asking Jennifer how they spend the RRTF donations.

    As for ACE, I believe the going rate is $4,000/week. They did some amazing work on Little Bear last summer. Worth every penny. IMO.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    TB we need you and Clockwork to ride this new trail. After your done please do a write up that can be used in the Trailforks trail description. I like to get the Intel out to the mountain bike community as quick as possible so riders can add new worthy trails to their ride plan.

    I personally am not sure how this trail fits into a normal 12 mile ride, but I am sure you can come up with something good to attract riders who might be heading to other destinations.
    you bet I'll ride it but may be months away. I'm sure there will be plenty of reviews to come by other riders and for the most part I know which people to ignore but I usually just ride the trail myself and make my own decision. I can't complain about it if I didn't help put in the work so thanks to those that did.
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    MTBR NEWS ALERT

    Today I went up to the new reroute to check out the work the ACE crew, one USFS member and Plumber Phil got done today. As I hiked up the trail I caught up with the ACE crew who were just packing up after a busy day of work.

    As you can see from the video ( https://youtu.be/rnZxrCuSnZg ) it was a new crew and they claimed to be hardcore trail builders. I was impressed by the amount of work accomplished. I also tried to visualize myself riding up the trail in the west to east direction. It will definitely be a fun climbing ride for the 5%'ers.

    Now that the trail is 95% complete it will be nice to get some riders on it to report how they found the trail. Be advised there are a few drainage crossings that haven't been built to a completed state. Also there is still some steep side slope sections that aren't finished yet. So be aware you may need to walk short sections to keep from being injured,
    Last edited by Switchblade2; 05-03-2017 at 09:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    Its possible I might be up that way in the next week. I will see if I have the time to squeeze it in this time although I was hoping for a 17-20 mile loop along the lines of what we rode the last time we rode together up there as I will have lesser experienced/conditioned riders with me that I just beat down in moab this past weekend.
    clockwork I would love to have you ride this new trail and give us your impression of how it rides. I will be haopy to shuttle you and your buddies to all the cool downhill runs after you finish the new route. It shouldn't take you more than 40 minutes to ride from the Sugarloaf trailhead on Tea Cup to Original Thunder Mt trail to the new Thunder Mt Reroute to the Original Thunder Mt trail to the Andante trail to the Andante trailhead where I will be parked to shuttle you the Aerie Development for the big downhill to Sedona Pines.

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    MTBR NEWS ALERT

    I went up again to check out the reroute project. When I got to the Andante parking lot the ACE crew was loading up and heading to Oak Creek for a swim. They were covered in dirt and sweet from the hard day of work.

    After hiking the trail today I would say it's 99% done and ready for PRIME TIME by the 5%'ers who love to climb. During my hike I would say the west downhill section is not techie like the west side. That can be seen in the new video ( https://youtu.be/rnZxrCuSnZg ) that I just downloaded. The major steep bench cut is pretty smooth except the waterfall drainage segment where a pretty significant rock build was required to cross the drainage.

    A segment on the east climbing section that would have only been rideable safely by the 5%'ers has now been FUNNED UP for the 80%'ers like myself. It is a short segment that was supposed to challenge the 5'%'ers has now been modified to my skill level.

    At this point I need to GPS the alignment for the Trailforks app. To do that I plan on riding/hiking the trail tomorrow morning if anyone wants to join in let me know. I will do a video to document the first ride through the whole trail, to try and get some perspective of how the trail rides going east to west. Who knows we may see Plumber Phil out there. Without him this trail would have never got built. He has been out everyday managing the project, if he isn't getting paid he should be.

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    MTBR NEWS ALERT

    Today I went out to ride the entire new Thunder Mt. Reroute ( https://youtu.be/1uejjtgqdFw ) starting at the east end and exiting the west end onto the original Thunder Mt. trail. It was warmer than normal so the ride probably had several stops that I could have cleaned if the temps were lower.

    After making over ten stops on the steep sections I personally don't believe this new reroute will be a Go-To-Trail for the 95'%ers. I hope I am wrong because of the amount of time and money invested in the reroute.

    The trail is a huge improvement for the local hiking community. The views and hiking experience is much improved over the original alignment. Due to limited parking (seven spots) I doubt the Sedona Information Center will be promoting the trail to visitors until the current parking is expanded.

    I sure would be nice to get some feedback from some other higher skilled riders to see what they think. Temps seem to be mellowing over the next week and we may get some needed rain late next week which would help with the loose climbing sections.

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    OK the trail is DONE and I am curious if any MTBR viewers are riding the trail. The profile gives you an idea that the climb to the high point for the downhill is pretty steep. I have ridden the trail twice from east to west because I think that direction is the least amount of painful climbing. Let us know what you think if you get a chance to ride the trail.

    Note on the east end that says the trail is still under construction. The sign was dated 4/30/17, so I am not sure what it means. When I ride the trail there are technical features I would FUN UP if I was given permission to to so. I get the feeling that the USFS foreman who built the trail feels the trail is not up to his usual standard and he is trying to get feedback from riders on how they like it. He left his phone number on the sign for people with questions to give him a call.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Will This New Sedona Trail Turn Out to Be a DUD-thunder-mt-trailfork-jpg.jpg  


  39. #39
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    Do you ever get the feeling that you are talking to your self?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Do you ever get the feeling that you are talking to your self?
    Sure all the time. But once in a while I get a response and that makes it worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Sure all the time. But once in a while I get a response and that makes it worth it.
    I've been reading this and paying attention, I appreciate the info and looking forward to checking it out
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    Quote Originally Posted by crushinit View Post
    I've been reading this and paying attention, I appreciate the info and looking forward to checking it out
    crush thanks for your post. My posts are for information purpose about our Sedona trail system. I have been promoting Sedona mountain biking for years and I have tried to provide information that gives riders a good chance of having a fun riding experience.

    For example today I went out and rode the new trail from west to east. Amazingly I was the only one who was riding the trail. We got some rain overnight and I would have assumed other riders would have ridden the trail.

    The trail had new hiking prints but no tire prints. Any the climb to the trail high point is easier going west to east, but for some reason the upper elevation did not provide as much flows technical as coming in the other direction.

    The trail is real twisty on the upper elevation and it seem like I would get stalled out on some of the tight ties that had an uphill aspect after the turn.

    If you look at the Trailforks track you will notice part of the trail seems to be in the Wilderness. rockman says my gps has horizontal gobbly **** so it can't be trusted to give an accurate alignment.

    I thought that the Wilderness boundary was based on elevation, but I don't know what the boundary elevation is in that area. I saw no Wildernees signs so we are good to go for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    blah blah blah.


    To much.
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    MTBR NEWS ALERT

    After posting my Garmin 62s gpx track of the new Thunder Mt Reroute trail into Trailforks it was noted the new trail may be located in the wilderness in the higher elevations. I have asked the USFS for their official track, to see if my track it not correct.

    I also went up and did a video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzFBVNIqTK0 ) of the elevation of the higher portion of the trail to see if the altimeter elevation shown is above the designated Wilderness boundary line.

    Hopefully mountain bikers will be allowed on the new trail whether it's in the Wilderness or not.

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    I'll be up there in a couple of weeks. Sounds like my kind of trail!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Patrick View Post
    I'll be up there in a couple of weeks. Sounds like my kind of trail!
    EP that's great. There might be a problem with the trail status. Plumber Phil may have routed the trail in the Wilderness. I asked the District ranger if they could share their GPS tack with me. She told me I needed to do a FOIA. Subsequently I asked her if the trail was in the Wilderness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    EP that's great. There might be a problem with the trail status. Plumber Phil may have routed the trail in the Wilderness. I asked the District ranger if they could share their GPS tack with me. She told me I needed to do a FOIA. Subsequently I asked her if the trail was in the Wilderness.
    Then it looks like we need to ride it soon as we can before it's banned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    EP that's great. There might be a problem with the trail status. Plumber Phil may have routed the trail in the Wilderness. I asked the District ranger if they could share their GPS tack with me. She told me I needed to do a FOIA. Subsequently I asked her if the trail was in the Wilderness.
    So....You think it's in the wilderness area where it shouldn't be, post a video of you checking it, post it all on the internet, You think it's Plumber Phils fault possibly, you ask the ranger for a GPS track stating you think it's out of bounds, she tells you to..., and we wonder why Sedona has drama and everywhere has loss of trails.. Really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    So....You think it's in the wilderness area where it shouldn't be, post a video of you checking it, post it all on the internet, You think it's Plumber Phils fault possibly, you ask the ranger for a GPS track stating you think it's out of bounds, she tells you to..., and we wonder why Sedona has drama and everywhere has loss of trails.. Really?

    Ride it now folks
    It really strange what's going on. I called the volunteer coordinator Adrian who posted her phone number on the trail sign indicating the trail may have some additional future work.

    I asked her if the USFS had a GPS track of the trail, she said of course they send it to mapping companies to develop updated maps.

    After that her boss emailed me and told me to submit a FOIA. I thought to myself I don't want to waste the FOIA departments time. So I changed my request to is the new Thunder Mt Reroute in the Wilderness? No answer yet.

    Maybe the Sedona FS is allowing Plumber Phil's masterpiece in the Wilderness which would be awesome because a lower route would not be as easy to build.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    It really strange what's going on. I called the volunteer coordinator Adrian who posted her phone number on the trail sign indicating the trail may have some additional future work.

    I asked her if the USFS had a GPS track of the trail, she said of course they send it to mapping companies to develop updated maps.

    After that her boss emailed me and told me to submit a FOIA. I thought to myself I don't want to waste the FOIA departments time. So I changed my request to is the new Thunder Mt Reroute in the Wilderness? No answer yet.

    Maybe the Sedona FS is allowing Plumber Phil's masterpiece in the Wilderness which would be awesome because a lower route would not be as easy to build.





    You sure come across as a petty, spiteful person. Maybe that's just your online persona but I kind of doubt it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    So I changed my request to is the new Thunder Mt Reroute in the Wilderness? No answer yet.
    Why? What purpose would this serve? To point out it might not be built in the correct, legal area? I don't get your efforts here sir

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    Tiretracks not sure spiteful is the right term.

    I think there is a lot I have done to promote Sedona mountain biking and that is my main goal to promote mountain biking whereever I have hung out.

    I like to do trail maintenance that reduces erosion potential. I like to do maintenance projects that give the 80%'ers a better user experience. I like to promote trail signage that gives hikers and mountain bikers a better user experience.

    I hate to see the USFS waste time and money on a project that they are being forced to do.

    I love to try and give people a riding tour of Sedona that is exceptional to what they have ever done previously. I love to do FREE shuttle tours of Sedona's best downhill opportunities.

    And I love to build trails that hundreds of thousands of people have ridden and will continue to ride after I am long gone.

    Actually rockman knows what I am really about.

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    Dirtriderb127 this is possibly a watershed moment. There has been a huge amount of discussion about mountain biking in Wilderness areas. Possibly this is one of those situations where the USFS has decided to allow for mountain bikes in the National Forest. This trail could set a precedent for future trails emanating from a National Forest and needing a section of Wilderness to complete the project.

    The more people who know this is possible, the faster we can move the ball forward. Since working on this project I have found out that the Tea Cup trail is also routed into the Wilderness.

    Now maybe the VVCC can use both of these trails to lobby the USFS to allow for the opening of Margs Draw. That alignment is right next to National Forest property and the Wilderness boundry.

    There seems to be a opportunity to allow that alignment to be user friendly for mountain bikers in the future.

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    The Sierra Club will be besides themselves if Marg's Draw is opened to bikes or the Thunder Mtn reroute is in wilderness and open to bikes. My guess is it was an honest mistake or the trail just skirts the boundary. It's hard to find much information on 'exactly' how the boundary was delineated for the Red Rock-Secret Mtn/Munds Mtn Wilderness area but for much of it an arbitrary elevation of 4600' was chosen. It other places it just appears to be drawn on a map. The positioning of this boundary unless marked by a sign and actually surveyed corners is what is in question. GPS tracks are notoriously inaccurate as well.

    It might be much ado about nothing. The trail builder/router provided the GPS track of their intended alignment to the FS so that it could then be walked by NEPA specialists to see that there are not archeological concerns, wildlife issues, etc. It doesn't surprise me that they won't give the OP the track. It's not like going to the Circle K and buying a Big Gulp. But it does surprise me if all those specialists in their Finding of No Significant Impact didn't happen to notice if the trail crossed the wilderness boundary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    The Sierra Club will be besides themselves if Marg's Draw is opened to bikes or the Thunder Mtn reroute is in wilderness and open to bikes. My guess is it was an honest mistake or the trail just skirts the boundary. It's hard to find much information on 'exactly' how the boundary was delineated for the Red Rock-Secret Mtn/Munds Mtn Wilderness area but for much of it an arbitrary elevation of 4600' was chosen. It other places it just appears to be drawn on a map. The positioning of this boundary unless marked by a sign and actually surveyed corners is what is in question. GPS tracks are notoriously inaccurate as well.

    It might be much ado about nothing. The trail builder/router provided the GPS track of their intended alignment to the FS so that it could then be walked by NEPA specialists to see that there are not archeological concerns, wildlife issues, etc. It doesn't surprise me that they won't give the OP the track. It's not like going to the Circle K and buying a Big Gulp. But it does surprise me if all those specialists in their Finding of No Significant Impact didn't happen to notice if the trail crossed the wilderness boundary.

    I admire anyone with a passion for trails.
    "I admire anyone with a passion for trails"

    I totally agree with that statement. More people need to "give back" to the trails that they ride. Doing trail work/maintenance can be a fulfilling as a good ride

    Thank you for the reply with clarity.
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    I got an email from the USFS today indicating the they sent up a person to check out the new reroute. They said the trail wasn't in the Wilderness which was cool. When I asked them the high point of the trail they said they can't tell me that because of there format.
    Does anyone know what kind of format the USFS uses that would not have elevation data? It seems like a data attribute would relate to an elevation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    I got an email from the USFS today indicating the they sent up a person to check out the new reroute. They said the trail wasn't in the Wilderness which was cool. When I asked them the high point of the trail they said they can't tell me that because of there format.
    Does anyone know what kind of format the USFS uses that would not have elevation data? It seems like a data attribute would relate to an elevation.
    The email contains coded language. What it actually says is: "Fvck off, you are a pain in the ass."
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  58. #58
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    Today I rode the Thunder Mountain Re-route section in both directions,*I originally was planning on riding it east to west first but I didn't see the turn off and ended up riding the current trail.
    First a couple things:
    I am old, fat and slow right now so almost any trails I've been riding seem to be a lot of work.
    The trail is still a work in progress, it's fully connect from one end to the other but still a lot of fine tuning needed.
    As it is now and even when completed, this trail will be considered advanced and not for beginners.

    When completed I believe*most riders will not be able to clean the whole trail (climbs only)*even by some of the strongest riders I know. that's ok and some hike a bike is always fun. If you want something easier you can always ride Andante, it's nice to have a more challenging option. Not all trails have to be groomed and wheel chair accessible, this is mountain biking after all.

    From what I seen from my Garmin and maps it is NOT in wilderness area.

    The trail is very soft and easily washes out, I went down hard when the trail gave out on a curve at moderate speed. I would not recommend anyone riding just yet, let them finish the touch ups and give the ok when done.

    I am not an expert trail builder, I can only compare what I have seen in the past with good and bad trails. Now the bad news, I HATE to do it, I don't want to say it but, I do see Johns concern with some portions of the trail being sustainable over time. There are few area's I see potential water erosions occurring but I see more sections being eroded due to riders and hikers having to hike up portions that are not set in solid. Even after it is packed well and set in I see bike shoes and boots slipping and tearing out chunks of dirt and rocks.

    I don't know for sure but I think the trail builders own 26" or 650B bikes only because it is not designed for 29er's, several of the turns are just too sharp (and loose right now) seems built like they are intending for smaller wheeled bikes for tech riding. Far as I am concerned that is fine and again you can always take the easier trail below.

    This is just my perspective but this trail has good potential as a technical trail for advance riders. I don't like the way some sections were built, maybe because they wanted sections to go to a particular area that couldn't be done any other way but I did*see a few area's that*look like someone is already starting cheater line but haven't connected them to the trail yet or they were potential trail routes but they changed it*last minute.

    I say*wait till they complete it and then give better judgement, I can't imagine hired professional trail builders*making trails that will*wash out so easily and needing more repairs than what they are trying to replace.*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    The email contains coded language. What it actually says is: "Fvck off, you are a pain in the ass."
    Mrwhlr I agree with the Pvck part, but since my altimeter reading at the high point is 4,820' and rockman says 4,600' is the elevation of the boundary that seems to be problematic.

    Maybe if they looked at Margs Draw they would see that their Wilderness boundary is incorrect and we mountain bikers could start riding through that area.

    Something seems to be out of wack.

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    TB interesting post. Your point about the trail not being finished yet is interesting. Plumber Phil built this trail to be technical so why do you think anymore work is going to be done on the upper steep section? It seems to me the hardcore riders that want something difficult will want the trail left alone and to season naturally.

    Would you mind sharing your GPS track with me so I can compare it to mine. What elevation is the Wilderness in that area?

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    TB you mentioned potential cheater lines, I am curious where you saw those. Since I was out on the project every day videoing the construction for my documentary, except recently, I am wondering where those cheater lines might be. Were they in the lower elevations or up in the higher elevation where the Wilderness boundary is located?

    At the highest elevation (4,820) the trail transits across a significant drainage that gets real deep which would make it difficult to build across, but not impossible. Did it seem like there was a cheater line in that area at a lower elevation?

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    TacoBeer two other spots that you might have seen were several difficult climbing spots in the intermediate section going east bound.
    Last edited by Switchblade2; 05-13-2017 at 09:20 AM.

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    I thought Trail Doc was banned from the forest areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    I thought Trail Doc was banned from the forest areas.
    Who is this Traildoc you speak of? He is gone from mrbr.........

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    Ok I went back up to check out the new alignment to see what has changed. TacoBell is correct there are three changes. Two of the enterances have been changed.

    On the east end the trail entrance has moved about 100' east of the original work crew entrance. A big log use to block the upper part of the entrance. You could roll the log previously but now the log has been moved out of the way.

    Yesterday the trail route check crew came in from the Sugarloaf Parking lot and maybe they moved that log roll out of the way.

    On the west end there are now two entrances. The original one used by ACE that has PP blue paint is easier to ride up. The new entrance/exit is harder to ride up, but way more fun to ride down. The segment is in a significant drainage so it is a more technical section.

    When I start my ride from the west to east a local 5%'er type was starting up the trail. I lost sight of him pretty quick, but he waited for me at the high point. I think he dabbed twice and he said he liked the climb. After that I never saw him again.

    After finishing the ride I went back to my car and meet a hardcore couple from Mesa. They were wearing $300 shoes so I knew they were elite riders. I told them about the new trail and they said they weren't going to ride it. I told them it was a great trail and they should ride it. They said they don't ride Hiline due to the exposure. I told them this trail doesn't have exposure, but it has steep climb sections.

    They were immediately hooked so they rode Andante to the east end and up the trail. I drove home and got a Gatorade then drove back and rode up the west end again to see what they thought of the ride. The guy said he loved it and was really impressed with all the rock work. The girl caught up about 5 min later and said she also liked it and looked forward to it being packed in more.

    As a side note Lars's wall ride has been finished for a little wall ride action. There is no signage to notify fast moving riders so they might blow by it.

  67. #67
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    $300.00 shoes puts them in the 3%er group I'd assume.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    $300.00 shoes puts them in the 3%er group I'd assume.
    Who in their damn mind would spend $300.00 on a pair of mtb shoes?

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    The %er's of course.

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    sin I may have lied. They looked like these shoes. but more space age like. His were bright orange and hers were bright green. They were really impressed with the rock ramps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Ok I went back up to check out the new alignment to see what has changed. TacoBell is correct there are three changes. Two of the enterances have been changed.

    On the east end the trail entrance has moved about 100' east of the original work crew entrance. A big log use to block the upper part of the entrance. You could roll the log previously but now the log has been moved out of the way.

    Yesterday the trail route check crew came in from the Sugarloaf Parking lot and maybe they moved that log roll out of the way.

    On the west end there are now two entrances. The original one used by ACE that has PP blue paint is easier to ride up. The new entrance/exit is harder to ride up, but way more fun to ride down. The segment is in a significant drainage so it is a more technical section.

    When I start my ride from the west to east a local 5%'er type was starting up the trail. I lost sight of him pretty quick, but he waited for me at the high point. I think he dabbed twice and he said he liked the climb. After that I never saw him again.

    After finishing the ride I went back to my car and meet a hardcore couple from Mesa. They were wearing $300 shoes so I knew they were elite riders. I told them about the new trail and they said they weren't going to ride it. I told them it was a great trail and they should ride it. They said they don't ride Hiline due to the exposure. I told them this trail doesn't have exposure, but it has steep climb sections.

    They were immediately hooked so they rode Andante to the east end and up the trail. I drove home and got a Gatorade then drove back and rode up the west end again to see what they thought of the ride. The guy said he loved it and was really impressed with all the rock work. The girl caught up about 5 min later and said she also liked it and looked forward to it being packed in more.

    As a side note Lars's wall ride has been finished for a little wall ride action. There is no signage to notify fast moving riders so they might blow by it.
    GOOD LORD man!!! When the hell do you have time to do anything with all the jibberish you are spewing on this forum?? Trail stewardship is rad, but this is out of hand!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwhls View Post
    GOOD LORD man!!! When the hell do you have time to do anything with all the jibberish you are spewing on this forum?? Trail stewardship is rad, but this is out of hand!
    big when your retired you have lots of time to get things done. The head of the USFS law enforcement once said to me "You think you can do a better job with trail maintenance than the Forest Service." You don't want to argue with a guy that is carrying two 9mm's and isn't smiling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    big when your retired you have lots of time to get things done. The head of the USFS law enforcement once said to me "You think you can do a better job with trail maintenance than the Forest Service." You don't want to argue with a guy that is carrying two 9mm's and isn't smiling.



    Was that before or after the legal action?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwhls View Post
    GOOD LORD man!!! When the hell do you have time to do anything with all the jibberish you are spewing on this forum?? Trail stewardship is rad, but this is out of hand!
    Have you ever heard autistic shrieking? His happens in writing.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  75. #75
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    I wonder why the admins have not blocked John's IP address to keep him from returning under new accounts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    I wonder why the admins have not blocked John's IP address to keep him from returning under new accounts?



    Could it be for click bait, to drive the numbers up? Kind of like motorbike threads, they're really not any value but they get lot of hits.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    I wonder why the admins have not blocked John's IP address to keep him from returning under new accounts?
    Who cares? Don't click on a TD thread if it bothers you so much. But similar to Fox News, I can't help myself either and tune in to hear what they have to say with morbid fascination. Don't watch the TD channel if you don't like it. Either way, MTBR is a better place and more interesting with Traildoc and even Mrwhr in it. Or, you can just talk about what tires are best for south mountain.

  78. #78
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    So, what tires are best for South Mountain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    So, what tires are best for South Mountain
    HA! Yeah, I definitely don't come here for the tire threads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    HA! Yeah, I definitely don't come here for the tire threads.
    I'll play, what tires are best for the new trail that parallels Elden lookout trail, kinda thru the lower red onion Corridor? Pops out at the Wasabi Gap. Anyone got any thoughts, criticism, worries that it may be a dud?
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    I'll play, what tires are best for the new trail that parallels Elden lookout trail, kinda thru the lower red onion Corridor? Pops out at the Wasabi Gap. Anyone got any thoughts, criticism, worries that it may be a dud?
    I'm not an elite rider 1%'er and wear $26 shoes. Mostly stay on the Bell path so can't comment. Maybe an expert will pipe in
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    I think a diversity of subject matter is important for each MTBR state forum. I tend to have a pretty good grasp of what's going on in Sedona. Others have a good grasp of Prescott's new trails. But we get very little of what is going on in other parts of the state.

    Maybe people who are informed about there part of the state might want to crime in.

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    disregard...
    Last edited by ljcap; 05-16-2017 at 07:56 AM.

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    Good job!

    yes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Why? What purpose would this serve? To point out it might not be built in the correct, legal area? I don't get your efforts here sir

    Just ride your bike, enjoy those trails, have a cold beer afterwards, and enjoy life. Rinse & repeat. Your tires stir up enough dust by themselves...
    Quote Originally Posted by bigwhls View Post
    GOOD LORD man!!! When the hell do you have time to do anything with all the jibberish you are spewing on this forum?? Trail stewardship is rad, but this is out of hand!
    Switchblade2
    It seems like you don't understand the purpose of that trail. It is a technical challenge alternative to the very easy and boring andante reroute that you were involved in. It rides fine both directions, and it s in soft dry conditions now. It will not be an issue once it gets some rain. As far as wilderness, the gps coordinates shows that it is on the edge of wilderness. That kind of statement could affect the whole trail building community going the right direction these days in Sedona. you don t even realize that your actions are working against everything happening in this town (and other) in the trail building matter.
    Instead of spending all your time on the web forums and bitching about trail building that you can't ride, go out and practice so you can actually ride the trail, instead of spending other of your time to make them easier building ramps over stuff.
    This trail is meant to be difficult and challenging for advanced rider and if you don't like it, you may just not be advanced enough. There are a lot other options you can go on, like the horrible Tea cup reroute.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by backflip View Post
    Switchblade2
    It seems like you don't understand the purpose of that trail. It is a technical challenge alternative to the very easy and boring andante reroute that you were involved in. It rides fine both directions, and it s in soft dry conditions now. It will not be an issue once it gets some rain. As far as wilderness, the gps coordinates shows that it is on the edge of wilderness. That kind of statement could affect the whole trail building community going the right direction these days in Sedona. you don t even realize that your actions are working against everything happening in this town (and other) in the trail building matter.
    Instead of spending all your time on the web forums and bitching about trail building that you can't ride, go out and practice so you can actually ride the trail, instead of spending other of your time to make them easier building ramps over stuff.
    This trail is meant to be difficult and challenging for advanced rider and if you don't like it, you may just not be advanced enough. There are a lot other options you can go on, like the horrible Tea cup reroute.
    bf you seem like you are a very informed Sedona rider. You must know a bunch of the local riders, can you share which riders are enjoying the new trail? What is your preferred direction when you ride the trail? When you get a chance take the time and make some positive comments on the Trailforks.com website about it.

    You made a negative comment on the Tea Cup trail can you articulate what you don't like about the new trail? Maybe you could also do an update in the Trailfork.com website on
    that trail. That site seems to be the major source of trail information in Sedona these days.

    What did I have to do with the Andante realignment?

  87. #87
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    i dont spend much time on the web. just heard of that post today and wasted a lot of time going through it. i m not gonna waste much more.

    just go ride and be happy sedona is openning trails, when lot of places in the country are closing them!

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by backflip View Post
    i dont spend much time on the web. just heard of that post today and wasted a lot of time going through it. i m not gonna waste much more.

    just go ride and be happy sedona is openning trails, when lot of places in the country are closing them!
    bf I normally ride the Sedona trails at least five days a week so I am really HAPPY. The new Thunder Mt Reroute is somewhat different than most of the other Sedona trails. It will be interesting how popular it becomes and whether the local bike shops will promote it as part of a cool Sedona ride.

    Sedona trails are pretty short so you need at least eight to twelve different trails to make a cool ride. The character of the new trail doesn't lend itself to 95% of the riders who are going to ride Jordan, Soldiers Wash, Tea Cup, Andante and the Thunder Mt trail leading to the Chimney Rock trail.

    If you are heading to Lower Lizardhead you need to transit on the secret cut though trail otherwise you need to ride 1 1/2 miles of pavement.

  89. #89
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    Plenty of cart paths for you.
    Find them and leave us alone
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstem View Post
    Plenty of cart paths for you.
    Find them and leave us alone
    Nice one! Sound like a good option and even get an electric bike for those.

  91. #91
    Meatbomb
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    I demand there be a WARNING sign informing this trail is a DUD.

  92. #92
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    Just rode the new Thunder Mtn Techie trail for the first time. Cleaned everything. And yes, it was a great challenge. There were at least two rebel yells needed.

    Tracey rode it with me and although she didn't clean everything, she still gives it two thumbs up.

    Please, don't dumb it down.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Patrick View Post
    Just rode the new Thunder Mtn Techie trail for the first time. Cleaned everything. And yes, it was a great challenge. There were at least two rebel yells needed.

    Tracey rode it with me and although she didn't clean everything, she still gives it two thumbs up.

    Please, don't dumb it down.
    EP thanks for the report. Do you think it will become the new GO TO trail in Sedona? You are the first person I have heard who cleaned everything, congratulations.

    Did you or anyone else do a video of your ride yet. If you get a chance do a ride report in Trailforks

    How did you find the entrance?

  94. #94
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    I would guess that it will get as much use as Ledge and Airy, and maybe as much use as those who do Made in the Shade clockwise.

    We did this as the beginning of a bigger west side loop (thunder mountain, lower chimney rock, lizard head, Chuck wagon, mescal, canyon of fools, dawa, ok, cypress, snake, girdner, and back). It added some great tech to the west side.

    Trailforks got us to the blocked beginning.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Patrick View Post
    I would guess that it will get as much use as Ledge and Airy, and maybe as much use as those who do Made in the Shade clockwise.

    We did this as the beginning of a bigger west side loop (thunder mountain, lower chimney rock, lizard head, Chuck wagon, mescal, canyon of fools, dawa, ok, cypress, snake, girdner, and back). It added some great tech to the west side.

    Trailforks got us to the blocked beginning.
    EB that makes sense about how much use it will get. When you say the blocked beginning, did you mean the new trail was blocked? On the west end there are two entrances.

    Plumber Phil built a second entrance a little bit east of the entrance taken by the trail builders.

  96. #96
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    This is still going on? stop this thread and get over it, the trail is made and it's good. I for one will not be visiting this thread again. OUTTA here to ride somewhere.
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  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacoBeer View Post
    This is still going on? stop this thread and get over it, the trail is made and it's good. I for one will not be visiting this thread again. OUTTA here to ride somewhere.
    TB many visitors come to Sedona to ride Plumber Phil's masterpieces. Apparently he has delivered another iconic trail.

    Sedona has been falling behind in the new trail department. I order to compete with other popular mountain bike destinations we need new TRAILS.

    Correct me if I am wrong, I know of no shop or marketing firm marketing this new 5%'er trail. The USFS use to complain I was marketing new Sedona trail ALL OVER THE WORLD for FREE. They complained I was providing detailed maps that actually showed the accurate GPS track rather then a bunch of straight or curved lines drawn in with a pen.

    I am just trying to keep Sedona on top. I have helped with that COVFEFE, and I am not dead yet.

  98. #98
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  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    TB many visitors come to Sedona to ride Plumber Phil's masterpieces. Apparently he has delivered another iconic trail.

    Sedona has been falling behind in the new trail department. I order to compete with other popular mountain bike destinations we need new TRAILS.

    Correct me if I am wrong, I know of no shop or marketing firm marketing this new 5%'er trail. The USFS use to complain I was marketing new Sedona trail ALL OVER THE WORLD for FREE. They complained I was providing detailed maps that actually showed the accurate GPS track rather then a bunch of straight or curved lines drawn in with a pen.

    I am just trying to keep Sedona on top. I have helped with that COVFEFE, and I am not dead yet.





    Meh, sedona is now passe, old news. You helped get it there.
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  100. #100
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    The %er thang killed it.

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