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  1. #1
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    We apparently have some critics.....

    I'm here for the OT

  2. #2
    suvlako
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    I thought only "the right" were wackos... Carla "No last name" huh?

  3. #3
    SamuraiBunnyGuy
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    what about a compromise where everyone wears protective booties? they could double as poop bags too...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvlako
    I thought only "the right" were wackos... Carla "No last name" huh?
    If I was going to have one name as my full name I'm not sure "Carla" quite does it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman
    If I was going to have one name as my full name I'm not sure "Carla" quite does it.
    I wonder if she drives a La Car?

  6. #6
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    "Carla" has been involved in the preserve for over ten years. She's an evil little troll. I went to alot of the initial meetings back in the day because Pima & Dynamite, which is part of the preserve if Scottsdale ever gets the $$ to buy it from the State Trust Dept, was one of my main areas to dirt bike.

    The preserve has been anti motorized and anti mechanical use (mountain bikes) from day one.

    The Sierra Club is the same way.

    If you're one of those people who support chasing motos of trail systems that they've created, don't be suprised when you and your mountain bike are the next to go. In many peoples eyes we are one and the same. The two user groups need to stop hating and work together on some of this stuff.

    If "Carla" has her way there will eventually be no mechanical use on the preserve land either.

  7. #7
    aka Swamp ThAAng
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    OT - I think I installed a bamboo floor in Kroy Ekblaw's new house, back in '07.
    Bulls**t is the glue that binds our nation - George Carlin

  8. #8
    suvlako
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    Carla needs to get some action...

  9. #9
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    Yeah, TG, this is not the first time I've heard of "Carla" either. To her credit, she was very active in getting the preserve set aside in the first place. It does burn that after giving our votes and voices to the cause she wants to shut us out because our activity is not "passive" enough for her liking.

  10. #10
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    The McDowell Sonoran Preserve is special. Rather than approaching this with "familiarity breeds contempt" remember how lucky we are to be able to actually ride multi-use trails in Scottsdale. Being a Preserve, there are more rules for use than the County Parks, the State Trust Lands, or Forest Service Lands. Think of what they are trying to achieve in the Preserve, like maintaining a habitat for native animals and plants. This includes leashing dogs and picking up after them, and staying on the trails. I talk to a lot of riders visiting from other parts of the Country, whom remark about what a treasure the Preserve is to be able to ride in.

    The Bike/Hike Challenge has been held on the Pima/Dynamite State Trust Lands, hopefully not on singletrack (haven't ever gone), the numbers of people participating probably impact the routes somewhat even if they are double track/jeep tracks.

    Make it a point to respect the specific rules for whatever area you are riding in. It will go a long way for us continuing to be able to ride all the trails we have.
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  11. #11
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    Oh yeahhhh! I've heard of "Carla" as well. She's our own local (and as yet nonviolent) Mike Vandeman.
    Don't be that guy! Read the forum guidelines.

  12. #12
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    I wonder how "Carla" feels about the blue poop bag abuse that our trails are suffering?
    It's only skin, it'll grow back!!

    Save the drama for your mama!!!

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  13. #13
    Meatbomb
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    which trails would this even take place on ? Is there a course map?

  14. #14
    parenting for gnarness
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    i say let these Board Members duke it out - on the one hand you have fundraising and happy people enjoying the outdoors, on the other hand you have treehugging nuts. Its perfect to let this play out publically, in the sense that a fringe group can not hide on the fringe when this is a "mainstream" event. If the fringe wins, well then they are not such a fringe group are they? Either way, Carla and her type will get vetted.

    all the more reason to like underground events, we can completely sidestep all this BS.
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
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  15. #15
    My other ride is your mom
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    Preserve Commissioner Linda Whitehead said that a large group of people racing through the desert "doesn't allow a whole lot of time to experience the land."

    -->This thought process is pretty disturbing....I could easily say that hikers should not use the trails because they don't have the capability of experiencing the entirety of the trail system in a single day.....absurd logic to imply that just because someone or group can't experience the land just as you; that they should be restricted from experiencing it at all.




  16. #16
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by supermoto
    she wants to shut us out because our activity is not "passive" enough for her liking.
    i've noticed more hikers using sticks in the Preserve than anywhere else. its a slippery slope to say what is passive enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    absurd logic to imply that just because someone or group can't experience the land just as you; that they should be restricted from experiencing it at all.
    pushing your bike at a snail's pace seems like the best compromise for all parties involved.

    Well this thread guilted me into getting on the MSC's mailing list. Their steward program seems a little over-the-top, kinda like training to be a server (excuse me, dub-dub) at TGIFridays, but I'll see if it fits me. The Commission meets monthly. some linkys below:

    http://www.scottsdaleaz.gov/boards/MSPreserve.asp

    http://www.mcdowellsonoran.org

    The Commission meetings are recorded and audio available. From the 6-3 meeting, at approximately 1:10 into the recording, you hear Carla and (~1:20) Linda Whitehead state their positions, along with several others. Basically she is saying that racing has specifically been defined as non-passive, and goes against the Preserve's mission. Whitehead echoes the same sentiment, as does the next speaker. Its pretty obvious that the speakers fundamentally think a "race" and enjoying the land are mutually exclusive - somehow trying to get from one end to the other quickly means you are not appreciating the land. Its also obvious that they dont understand that this is a charity\fundraiser, and very different from MBA style races. They clearly have a bias toward flower-sniffing hikes as the most appropriate use of the Preserve, and suggest the goal of fundraising and awareness for the Preserve would be better accomplished by hosting guided hikes -- hikes ok, running (lumped in w. biking) is somehow less-ok cause its not their idea of ok. One speaker cites participating in the previous year's event and not liking all the crowds and dust. Several of the speakers don't know how races are run and are afraid of them, thinking that just cause all the riders start together they will ride off-trail - they've simply never seen races, and are incapable of translating 300 users "together" as no different to the trail than 300 spread out. Also obvious that the speakers take the notion of the Preserve as fundamentally more stringent than a park - this is part of the Preserve's charter, so while it seems a little militant, its not without basis - just seems like the Commission members are all somewhat extremeist on this point, whereas the Chairperson was trying to see all sides (typical of city employees\rangers etc. vs. volunteers). The funniest part is the advocate for the event is the director of the MSC, which is the backbone of volunteers and donations behind the Preserve. nuthin' like a good catfight.

    look forward to the next Quad Bypass, er...group of friends riding together.
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by supermoto
    Yeah, TG, this is not the first time I've heard of "Carla" either. To her credit, she was very active in getting the preserve set aside in the first place. It does burn that after giving our votes and voices to the cause she wants to shut us out because our activity is not "passive" enough for her liking.
    When I was going to the City of Scottsdale meetings as a rep for Arizona Trail Riders (a dirt bike club) the long term goal seemed to be that of making the "preserve" land pretty much the same as "wilderness" land, which would mean no motorized AND no mechanical use.

    They didn't put all their cards on the table at the public meetings because they knew they would lose votes.

    Carla is sneaky and knows how all the political BS works. It will be interesting to see what happens after they come up with money to buy the last piece of their little legacy.

  18. #18
    I love bike!
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    "What? One name? One name? Who are you? Seal?"

  19. #19
    meow
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    Don't see how a race that lasts a total of maybe 6 hours once a year would do any harm to the preserve. Ironically the city wants to build the Gateway center up as a tourist attraction...adding a restaurant, guided horse rides (leaving torn up trails and lots of poop), mountain bike rentals (imagine!), and an auditorium. The city and the the original grass roots organizers are so far apart on the issue and have turned it into a political pawn. Carla is probably still upset that they let her go as the preserve's executive director as they thought it was a conflict of interest.

  20. #20
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    Can someone past the article please. The powers that be feel that knowledge of the outside world is dangerous and have blocked azcentral. Odd being a college...
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyBoyR6
    Can someone past the article please. The powers that be feel that knowledge of the outside world is dangerous and have blocked azcentral. Odd being a college...
    Critics question benefit event's impact on McDowell Preserve
    26 commentsby Beth Duckett - Jun. 6, 2010 08:45 PM
    The Arizona Republic

    A trail and bike event that promotes land preservation in the northeast Valley is under scrutiny for its potential to damage the terrain in one of the Valley's most prominent preserve areas.

    Proponents of the McDowell Sonoran Challenge say the event draws attention to the need for state-land reform while showcasing pristine desert designated for conservation.


    But last week, members of the Scottsdale McDowell Sonoran Preserve Commission raised concerns about the race. One of the commissioners, Carla (her full legal name), argued that the event is contrary to the spirit of the preserve.

    "We can't love this land to death," Carla said. "This is not an outdoor gym. It is a natural treasure."

    The race would take place on preserve land and adjacent state-trust land that Scottsdale plans to acquire this fall to add to its McDowell Sonoran Preserve, said Preserve Director Kroy Ekblaw.

    The preserve encompasses 14,000 acres of desert in the McDowell Mountains of northeast Scottsdale. Since 1990, the city has been acquiring the land to create the preserve and protect it from development while opening it to exploration and recreational uses. The city has set a goal of ultimately including about 36,000 acres in the preserve.

    The commission met to solicit feedback as the city considers issuing a permit needed for next year's Challenge.

    The non-profit McDowell Sonoran Conservancy has scheduled the next 22-mile bike ride, 9-mile hike and 15K run for Feb. 26.

    The race, which takes place on master-planned trails, is a benefit that netted $5,000 this year for the conservancy, said its executive director, Ruthie Carll.

    Carla argued that the city's preserve ordinance says the purpose of the land is for "passive" recreational opportunities.

    Crowds were another concern.

    Preserve Commissioner Linda Whitehead said that a large group of people racing through the desert "doesn't allow a whole lot of time to experience the land."

    Adding more guided hikes to the event could be an alternative to raise awareness about land preservation, Whitehead said.

    This year's event drew 326 runners, bikers and hikers, according to figures provided by Scottsdale Community Services Executive Director William Murphy.

    In 2009, more than 90 percent of surveyed race participants said they had never been to the preserve. Almost 85 percent said they had limited knowledge of state-land reform.

    Volunteers for the conservancy have said the event does not harm the land.

    Carll said conservancy volunteers, as preserve stewards, would never prioritize an event over the preserve's best interests. In an e-mail to The Arizona Republic, she said the ordinance defines "passive recreation" as non-motorized recreational activities.

    "McDowell Sonoran Conservancy has pre- and post- event video and photographs showing improved trail conditions resulting from hundreds of hours of trail work fixing motorized vehicle damage in preparation for the event," Carll said.

    Although the commission discussed the issue, it is up to Ekblaw to decide whether to issue the permit. He said he expected to decide this month.

  22. #22
    Sup?
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    Shes a freakin nutjob.. rockclimbers have been working with the MSLT for years and she even went all whacko on us. She was ran off of the board/group of that organization at one point? but now appears to be back involved with the commission.

    I dont get involved with this as my input was always not regarded since I didnt 'live' in Scottsdale.

    So yes.. props CB if you want to get involved as a 'legit' resident... you guys have more pull than the rest of us hayseeds in the south 40 of the EV

  23. #23
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by honemastert
    Shes a freakin nutjob..
    listening to the meeting was eye-opening, to see how many of the commission members really had no idea how organized events are handled, their impact etc. The members of the MSC said stuff like "we have a video of before\after from last year to show you how we dealt with impact issues" and some of the objectors just blew it off based on principle. Really...blowing off the people who run the Steward programs?? Another really amazing moment was when Carla (i think...) tried to convince everyone that a race would be in violation of Scottsdale's dust laws, eventually getting slapped down by someone who cited that recreational users are exempt from that regulation. Then she got onto how the City opens itself up to a lawsuit by allowing one group and not another, until again the Chairperson (i think) slapped her down saying that the bylaws allow for certain events and exceptions. This event is perfect from the p.o.v of shining daylight on people like this, cause of who is behind it (the MSC), the goal (fundraising and awareness of the preserve), and they have the facts and person-power to ensure it wont have a negative impact.

    Everyone agrees that the Preserve is treated with more attention to the land than other riding areas, as per its mandates. But some of these people were just clueless, and obviously deep-down simply feel that only walking is "passive" use of the land. its amazingly arrogant and ignorant. So yeah I'm hoping to see what options there are for bikers to get involved - I really dont want to be a steward but just a guy out there on a bike who has a positive or at-worst neutral interaction with other users so they realize bikes are not the problem - the few idiots in every group are the problem. Even if you dont ride in the Preserve (and I rarely did until we recently moved), realize that your interactions with others do have an affect on how bikers are perceived, and there are eco-nuts out there wanting you gone.
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  24. #24
    My other ride is your mom
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    More hikers smile and say hi back in the EV than they do in the McDowells. I ALWAYS say two things when passing a hiker or meeting them head on:
    1) Thank you!
    2) Have a Great Day!

    On our death march last Saturday....out of perhaps 10 peeps I encountered....only 2 or so looked happy and responded back in the same....the rest of them did not say a thing, did not smile, did not acknowledge me.

    There were some definite bad vibes going on that day....maybe it was a fluke....but I've yet to run into that at Hawes or even SoMo to that lopsided degree (there are always exceptions....so lets not turn this into the "nastiest hiker vs. biker thread").

    We need to go out of our way as a user group to extend a level of politeness above and beyond what is expected of us by those who choose to restrict our rights.....call it what you may, but the martyr complex can move mountains with respect to political action. Make them look like the jerks and you will gain from it. It's just sad that a gain for us is in effect, equality.




  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt1976
    Wow, what a balanced article. Here is the only line defending the race:

    "Volunteers for the conservancy have said the event does not harm the land."

    And I'll bet my paycheck that "Carla" is NOT her legal name.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  26. #26
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    This sounds so familiar just like the trail battles I had hoped to leave behind in CA. Oh well I guess there will always be those that want the land to themselves even if it doesn't make any sense.

  27. #27
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    Carla

    Where does this "carla" live so we can send greeting cards?

  28. #28
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    Carla needs to get on the soapbox and discuss how high winds knock over large trees. It would make trail maintinence easier after the snow melts.

  29. #29
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    What a bunch of BS. I did the MTB race this year and my neighbor an (ultra-runner) volunteered. The event was a lot of fun and very low impact on the environment. A large reason why I chose to do the event is due to the fact that I CARE about the Preserve and its future. Hello, the event raised $5,000!

    I can tell you as a participant that the groups doing the hiking (was that part of the event okay), running and mountain biking events were very respectful. And why wouldn't they be? They make up the frequent users of the Preserve - the ones that care about it and respect it. I thought one of the coolest things about the event was that it brought together runners, hikers and bikers for a common cause. Even the Mayor, Jim Lane, was there.

    It is a shame that Carla has such a selfish view of the Preserve. It seems obvious to me that she has always had a specific vision for how the Preserve should be enjoyed. That being HER way or no way. This is just one example of her attacking those that don't step in line with her. Going after the event as something that could cause damage to the terrain!? What a joke. Nice try, but if you were there you know that the event was completely on well marked existing trails. On top of that you had guys like my neighbor running the trails after the race looking for trash. Was Carla there???

    Carla's argument is very hypocritical. If she was really intent on "preserving" the flora and fauna in its natural state then she would have argued that the land should be set aside as a "wild" preserve - no trails, no access, no people, period. But that's not what she wanted. She wanted her own little (non-sweaty) playground and all to herself. That is fine when it is called your own private property! But the Preserve is not her private land and as a Scottsdale resident I find her position offensive. As long as we all (runners, hikers, bikers, equestrian) respect the land and abide by the rules we have as much right to enjoy the Preserve as Carla.

    As a community of riders it is our duty to stand up to this nonsense, show that we care as much as anyone about our land and have as much a right to enjoy it. So please write the City of Scottsdale and the McDowell Sonoran Conservancy and let them know how you feel. Then walk (ride) the talk, be respectful to others and leave the trails as good or better than when you got there. If we don't we will stand to be labeled, misrepresented and could find ourselves as bikers excluded from the trails.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowbutSure
    This sounds so familiar just like the trail battles I had hoped to leave behind in CA. Oh well I guess there will always be those that want the land to themselves even if it doesn't make any sense.
    Oh, I'm pretty sure a good portion of this attitude immigrated from California.

    ...huh.

    Maybe we should be asking Californians for their papers.

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  31. #31
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    Send an email

    I sent and email to contact Kroy Ekblaw, Strategic Projects/Preserve Director.

    His email is kekblaw@scottsdaleaz.gov, and he can be contacted via this form:
    https://eservices.scottsdaleaz.gov/f...ve/default.asp

    Please send a polite email if you want to make your voice heard.

    My note is below. Thank you.

    ---------------------------------
    Hello Mr. Ekblaw,
    I recently listened to the MSP Commission meeting from June 3, and was very disturbed to learn of the extreme environmentalist position of Commissioner Carla and others. I agree 100% that the Preserve needs to be cared for and protected, but her anti-running anti-biking anti-activity attitude is hypocritical, judgmental and elitist. I am an avid biker and hiker, and always try to show the utmost respect to the trail system and other trail users. If I go fast, or treat the trail like an outdoor gym, its nobody's place to judge the merits of my activities as long as I share the trail and respect the rules. Please allow sensible, inclusive environmentalism to guide your decisions as to what activities should be supported in the Preserve.
    Thank you.
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
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  32. #32
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    Some folks just don't seem to get the difference between a "right" and a privelege. Or that a bicycle is not allowed on the sidewalk or that it is classified by the state as a vehicle, and held to the same standards as a vehicle. Since it's a vehicle, it is a privilege to be allowed to share the trail with those on foot.

    Mixing vehicles with pedestrians has always been a risky endeavor, with encounters usually causing great harm to the object of lesser speed and lesser mass. It's all in the law of Physics.

    I think folks should be thankful they are given the privelege of riding bikes in the McDowell Preserve. But I just flat out don't feel comfortable with extremists or racers or race events in the Preserve, only because I've seen so many times racers riding in a very irresponsible, out of control manner, in the interest of shaving seconds off of their lap times. There is no way that passing a competitor is in any way a passive usage. I'd be willing to bet almost all bike racers have an "A" type personality. Racing is all about pushing the limits, that's hardly passive usage. I've seen racers V02'd out and mentally toxic at the top of climbs, unable to follow directions, or observe flourescent red cones to stay on course, instead riding the same route they rode last year, and going the wrong way in the process.

    Please don't hate me for voicing my opinion, this is just what my observations have shown since I took up mountain biking and started volunteering at races at KeyesvilleClassic and the Downeyville Classic. Racers tear things up... the trails, their equipment, and passing is a very aggressive and risky endeavor, so please don't tell me otherwise, I've seen the accidents and statistics with my own eyes. I've watched your own Homeboy, Chewey Aitkens pass at Keyesville on the DH course on his Bionicon GoldenWillow. He's one of the smoothest rock / chunk riders in the business, and he was on the edge of failure on the pass I saw.

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=29




  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Some folks just don't seem to get the difference between a "right" and a privelege. Or that a bicycle is not allowed on the sidewalk or that it is classified by the state as a vehicle, and held to the same standards as a vehicle. Since it's a vehicle, it is a privilege to be allowed to share the trail with those on foot.

    Mixing vehicles with pedestrians has always been a risky endeavor, with encounters usually causing great harm to the object of lesser speed and lesser mass. It's all in the law of Physics.

    I think folks should be thankful they are given the privelege of riding bikes in the McDowell Preserve. But I just flat out don't feel comfortable with extremists or racers or race events in the Preserve, only because I've seen so many times racers riding in a very irresponsible, out of control manner, in the interest of shaving seconds off of their lap times. There is no way that passing a competitor is in any way a passive usage. I'd be willing to bet almost all bike racers have an "A" type personality. Racing is all about pushing the limits, that's hardly passive usage. I've seen racers V02'd out and mentally toxic at the top of climbs, unable to follow directions, or observe flourescent red cones to stay on course, instead riding the same route they rode last year, and going the wrong way in the process.

    Please don't hate me for voicing my opinion, this is just what my observations have shown since I took up mountain biking and started volunteering at races at KeyesvilleClassic and the Downeyville Classic. Racers tear things up... the trails, their equipment, and passing is a very aggressive and risky endeavor, so please don't tell me otherwise, I've seen the accidents and statistics with my own eyes. I've watched your own Homeboy, Chewey Aitkens pass at Keyesville on the DH course on his Bionicon GoldenWillow. He's one of the smoothest rock / chunk riders in the business, and he was on the edge of failure on the pass I saw.

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=29



    are you from marin county?

  34. #34
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    Yeah, the last two rides I've done have reinforced my belief that most mtbers don't really give a rats a$$ about hikers or other riders. They are more than willing to ride off the trail to ride around an uphill rider (rather than stop) and they expect hikers to get out of their way. I wish this was a minority, but the last few rides have proven opposite. I don't know what is so hard about stopping for hikers and uphill riders (as if you'll never have an un-broken downhill run?), but it seems to be increasing. These are not newbies out on huffys either, these are seasoned riders that just seem to think about themselves.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  35. #35
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    Comparing a DH race to a small charity race is silly.
    It's also ultra lame to name a rider that many people like and know is a cool guy and suggest that you don't want people to hate on your post for voicing you opinion.
    It's trolling and bad form to use someone's real name and an isolated incident to try to make a comparison that does not compare.
    Maybe you could post your real name on here so Chewy could call you up to respond if he wanted to.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Some folks just don't seem to get the difference between a "right" and a privelege. Or that a bicycle is not allowed on the sidewalk or that it is classified by the state as a vehicle, and held to the same standards as a vehicle. Since it's a vehicle, it is a privilege to be allowed to share the trail with those on foot.

    Mixing vehicles with pedestrians has always been a risky endeavor, with encounters usually causing great harm to the object of lesser speed and lesser mass. It's all in the law of Physics.

    I think folks should be thankful they are given the privelege of riding bikes in the McDowell Preserve. But I just flat out don't feel comfortable with extremists or racers or race events in the Preserve, only because I've seen so many times racers riding in a very irresponsible, out of control manner, in the interest of shaving seconds off of their lap times. There is no way that passing a competitor is in any way a passive usage. I'd be willing to bet almost all bike racers have an "A" type personality. Racing is all about pushing the limits, that's hardly passive usage. I've seen racers V02'd out and mentally toxic at the top of climbs, unable to follow directions, or observe flourescent red cones to stay on course, instead riding the same route they rode last year, and going the wrong way in the process.

    Please don't hate me for voicing my opinion, this is just what my observations have shown since I took up mountain biking and started volunteering at races at KeyesvilleClassic and the Downeyville Classic. Racers tear things up... the trails, their equipment, and passing is a very aggressive and risky endeavor, so please don't tell me otherwise, I've seen the accidents and statistics with my own eyes. I've watched your own Homeboy, Chewey Aitkens pass at Keyesville on the DH course on his Bionicon GoldenWillow. He's one of the smoothest rock / chunk riders in the business, and he was on the edge of failure on the pass I saw.

    https://forums.mtbr.com/showpost.php...3&postcount=29




  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yeah, the last two rides I've done have reinforced my belief that most mtbers don't really give a rats a$$ about hikers or other riders. They are more than willing to ride off the trail to ride around an uphill rider (rather than stop) and they expect hikers to get out of their way. I wish this was a minority, but the last few rides have proven opposite. I don't know what is so hard about stopping for hikers and uphill riders (as if you'll never have an un-broken downhill run?), but it seems to be increasing. These are not newbies out on huffys either, these are seasoned riders that just seem to think about themselves.

    why should I stop my flow?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    why should I stop my flow?
    It turns your underpants red.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman
    Comparing a DH race to a small charity race is silly.
    It's also ultra lame to name a rider that many people like and know is a cool guy and suggest that you don't want people to hate on your post for voicing you opinion.
    It's trolling and bad form to use someone's real name and an isolated incident to try to make a comparison that does not compare.
    Maybe you could post your real name on here so Chewy could call you up to respond if he wanted to.
    +1 I agree with Chongoman. If you were at the event and participated in it you would know it wasn't treated like a World Cup XC race. To bad mouth and label the participants as out of control, blood thirsty racers is plain inaccurate and completely distorts the mood of the event and the intent and motivation of those that participated in and supported the race.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman
    Comparing a DH race to a small charity race is silly.
    It's also ultra lame to name a rider that many people like and know is a cool guy and suggest that you don't want people to hate on your post for voicing you opinion.
    It's trolling and bad form to use someone's real name and an isolated incident to try to make a comparison that does not compare.
    Maybe you could post your real name on here so Chewy could call you up to respond if he wanted to.
    i think Randy has some good points, but as you noted, not apples-to-apples comparison here.

    Even if you do feel even a casual race is not appropriate for the Preserve, I think we can all agree that other bikers are not the primary problem here. Give a listen to the meeting if you want to "know your enemy". So again, I'd encourage you to focus your energy on those who would block and ban bikes due to ignorance or elitism. I have a much easier time with a rational disagreement about bike access in this situation than with an extremist, irrational decision-maker.
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
    Our Preserve, Our Taxes, Our Vote

  40. #40
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    I listened to the MSPC’s meeting and I find it interesting that Carla tries to twist the rules to meet her own agenda. She repeatedly states that “Passive Recreation Activities” do not include trail running or mountain biking. When in fact it was meant just to exclued motorized use in the Preserve.


    Sec. 21-11. - Definitions

    Passive recreation activities means non-motorized recreational activities such as hiking, wildlife viewing, mountain bicycling, horseback riding and rock climbing.”


    See - http://library.municode.com/HTML/100..._C21_AIII.html

    Sec. 21-11. - Definitions.

    The following words, terms and phrases, when used in this chapter, shall have the meanings ascribed to them in this section, except where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:

    Access area means that area within the preserve that is utilized for parking vehicles, interpretive displays, information, and minor amenities such as restrooms. Major trailheads will be located at the access areas in the preserve.

    Commission means the McDowell Sonoran Preserve Commission.

    Designated and posted means identified by appropriate signs; or by established physical barriers, including, but not limited to posts, branches or rocks; or by other means reasonably calculated to give notice to the public of areas open or closed to the public.

    Passive recreation activities means non-motorized recreational activities such as hiking, wildlife viewing, mountain bicycling, horseback riding and rock climbing.

    Person means a corporation, firm, partnership, association, organization and any other group acting as a unit, as well as an individual.

    Preserve director means the city manager, or the city manager's designee.
    Spirituous liquor, includes alcohol, brandy, whiskey, rum, tequila, mescal, gin, wine, porter, ale, beer, any malt liquor or malt beverage, absinthe, a compound or mixture of any of them with any vegetable or other substance, alcohol bitters, bitters containing alcohol, any liquid mixture or preparation, whether patented or otherwise, which produces intoxication, fruits preserved in ardent spirits, and beverages containing more than one-half percent of alcohol by volume. .

    Trail means an area or areas of the preserve that have been designated and posted as trails, including historical trails if designated and posted.

    Trailhead means an area which has been designated and posted as a trail access point for the preserve.
    Marty

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    are you from marin county?
    Does where I'm from invalidate my observations about racers? If I'm from Mexico, would that change your opinion?

    Perhaps you've forgotten your roots, that mountain bike racing started up in Marin County, The Repack.

    http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/repack.htm

    If you read the article, you'll see, the more things change, the more they remain the same.

    Racers, turned Poachers, a racing event starting under the radar, and finally reaching the end and being banned, too big, too risky for it's own survival.

    Read the whole article... nothing has changed. Everything I wrote above is confirmed, even 35 years ago.

    The history is written, clearly, concisely. Human Nature never changes.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Does where I'm from invalidate my observations about racers? If I'm from Mexico, would that change your opinion?

    Perhaps you've forgotten your roots, that mountain bike racing started up in Marin County, The Repack.

    http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/repack.htm

    If you read the article, you'll see, the more things change, the more they remain the same.

    Racers, turned Poachers, a racing event starting under the radar, and finally reaching the end and being banned, too big, too risky for it's own survival.

    Read the whole article... nothing has changed. Everything I wrote above is confirmed, even 35 years ago.

    The history is written, clearly, concisely. Human Nature never changes.

    it should be legal to ride your bike on dirt wherever and however you want. How can a sport that is founded on risk be too risky?

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Does where I'm from invalidate my observations about racers? If I'm from Mexico, would that change your opinion?

    Perhaps you've forgotten your roots, that mountain bike racing started up in Marin County, The Repack.

    http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/repack.htm

    If you read the article, you'll see, the more things change, the more they remain the same.

    Racers, turned Poachers, a racing event starting under the radar, and finally reaching the end and being banned, too big, too risky for it's own survival.

    Read the whole article... nothing has changed. Everything I wrote above is confirmed, even 35 years ago.

    The history is written, clearly, concisely. Human Nature never changes.
    I get your point, but this would not happen with the charity event that we are talking about in this thread.
    1. It is not an underground event
    2. It's size is controled by the event promoters and required registration.
    3. It is not a DH race (not that there's anything wrong with that

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    it should be legal to ride your bike on dirt wherever and however you want.
    But it's illegal. Is pot still illegal in AZ?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    But it's illegal. Is pot still illegal in AZ?
    not sure what that has to do with trail riding....but last I checked no.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    i think Randy has some good points, but as you noted, not apples-to-apples comparison here.

    Even if you do feel even a casual race is not appropriate for the Preserve, I think we can all agree that other bikers are not the primary problem here. Give a listen to the meeting if you want to "know your enemy". So again, I'd encourage you to focus your energy on those who would block and ban bikes due to ignorance or elitism. I have a much easier time with a rational disagreement about bike access in this situation than with an extremist, irrational decision-maker.

    Don't misunderstand me.... I would fight tooth and nail to prevent the banning of mountain bike riding in the McDowells. It is a treasure of riding trails, a great climb, lovely single track. But again, it's a privilege, not a right, so we have to tread lightly to maintain that privilege.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Don't misunderstand me.... I would fight tooth and nail to prevent the banning of mountain bike riding in the McDowells. It is a treasure of riding trails, a great climb, lovely single track. But again, it's a privilege, not a right, so we have to tread lightly to maintain that privilege.

    by tread lightly you mean building overpriced tract homes in said sonoran preserve?

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    not sure what that has to do with trail riding....but last I checked no.
    Where did you check?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Where did you check?

    no it's still illegal

  50. #50
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    This tennis match has been declared a tie!
    Don't be that guy! Read the forum guidelines.

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