Trail Damage Rant- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Trail Damage Rant

    Went out to Browns this morning to get in on some of the hero dirt conditions out there...
    What I expected to see was a $hit-ton of damage from whorses...
    What I found was $hit-ton of damage from MTBR's....holy crap people...if you rode Whiskey Bottle Trail on the north slide of Fraesfeld Mtn on 1/1 or 1/2/2017, you are a d*ck...sorry, but a goddamn m*therf*cking dick. We complain about horses effing up the trails yet can't stay off the f*cking trails that are most vulnerable to damage when wet.

  2. #2
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    Well Looking at Strava segments. Whiskey North to South...



    2 Jair Lee Jan 1, 2017 11.3mi/h - 54W - 8:02
    3 Jacob Voelker Jan 1, 2017 11.3mi/h 137bpm 114W - 8:03
    4 Mike H Jan 2, 2017 9.3mi/h 156bpm 96W - 9:49
    5 Srnka Johnson Jan 1, 2017 8.8mi/h - 50W - 10:19
    6 Cullen Whitmire Jan 1, 2017 8.8mi/h - - - 10:21
    7 Augustin Gloria Jan 2, 2017 8.5mi/h - 84W - 10:43
    8 Lee Herge Jan 2, 2017 8.5mi/h 129bpm 98W - 10:44
    Joe
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  3. #3
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    ^^^bahahahahahahahaha




  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    Well Looking at Strava segments. Whiskey North to South...



    2 Jair Lee Jan 1, 2017 11.3mi/h - 54W - 8:02
    3 Jacob Voelker Jan 1, 2017 11.3mi/h 137bpm 114W - 8:03
    4 Mike H Jan 2, 2017 9.3mi/h 156bpm 96W - 9:49
    5 Srnka Johnson Jan 1, 2017 8.8mi/h - 50W - 10:19
    6 Cullen Whitmire Jan 1, 2017 8.8mi/h - - - 10:21
    7 Augustin Gloria Jan 2, 2017 8.5mi/h - 84W - 10:43
    8 Lee Herge Jan 2, 2017 8.5mi/h 129bpm 98W - 10:44
    Send them all threatening PMs...

  5. #5
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    OK, being a stravaidiot I have a question....

    "2 Jair Lee Jan 1, 2017 11.3mi/h - 54W - 8:02"

    What does the 'W' indicate?


    And why is the #1 position not listed? Someone from the site?

  6. #6
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    54W = 54 watts...

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    Post to SteveBay PLEASE, a little awareness raising is appropriate. I checked every day this weekend for info before heading to Browns. There were posts by the Desert Foothills group, McDowell Conservancy etc to be thoughtful and avoid the muck. I decided to stick to the West side of Bell where its all rock. f*cking d*cks.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    OK, being a stravaidiot I have a question....

    "2 Jair Lee Jan 1, 2017 11.3mi/h - 54W - 8:02"

    What does the 'W' indicate?


    And why is the #1 position not listed? Someone from the site?
    this is the most on topic post of the year!
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  9. #9
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    #1 has posted in this thread, huh?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    this is the most on topic post of the year!

    Forgive me Your Majesty. I was curious.

  11. #11
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    I rode Brown's before the weekend's rain and it was marginal. Lots of deep puddles (and tire tracks in and around the puddles). True the dirt was hero status, but it also was not conducive to good etiquitte. Lots of bypasses out into the desert, way around the puddles, with fresh tracks.

    I sadly expected no less after the nearly 1-inch of rain. I've been going crazy wanting to ride but held off because of this.
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  12. #12
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    I don't think there is much you can do about these self involved d'bags. They are so concerned with doing whatever they want RIGHT NOW that they can't even bother to care about the impact of their actions - even when those actions will impact them later.

    And yeah, it sucked that the trails were soft on a long weekend - but sometimes that's how it goes. I was bummed not to be able to ride, but I (like many other people) managed to find other things to do this weekend.

  13. #13
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    All of the rocky trails on the south/west side of the McDowell's were fine, prime HAB condition. The descent down the north side of Tom's Thumb was the best I've seen. Even Sonoran trail rode really well.
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  14. #14
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    This thread gives me pleasure for calling out the jackwagons of the trails. I live in the SE part of the valley and don't ride Brown's too often, but I see plenty of careless riding evidence at GC and Hawes. Because starva is not part of my ride, I guess I got time to move a few boulders out of the way or HAB around puddles.
    The only trace I leave behind is tire marks.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    OK, being a stravaidiot I have a question....

    "2 Jair Lee Jan 1, 2017 11.3mi/h - 54W - 8:02"

    What does the 'W' indicate?


    And why is the #1 position not listed? Someone from the site?
    54W = 54 watts Strava estimate power. As for number 1. That was Raybum on 1/3 after it was dry.
    Joe
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtownmtb View Post
    I don't think there is much you can do about these self involved d'bags. They are so concerned with doing whatever they want RIGHT NOW that they can't even bother to care about the impact of their actions - even when those actions will impact them later.

    And yeah, it sucked that the trails were soft on a long weekend - but sometimes that's how it goes. I was bummed not to be able to ride, but I (like many other people) managed to find other things to do this weekend.
    Yeah a bunch of us had monster McDowells(east side) & Browns ride for Jan 2nd that dtownmtb rightly cancelled due to conditions. I rode T100 area on Jan 2nd with Raybum and there was no mud at all. That ground is just too rocky. There were a couple puddles, but nothing that would damage those trails. You have to know where to ride and where no to. Thing is about Strava that since every needs to post up it is pretty easy to see who was out. are those the only riders? probably not, but they were at least some of the riders.
    Joe
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  17. #17
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    madreptillian I am curious about your mentioning that you witnessed careless riding at GC after heavy rain periods. On 12/22 I went to GC and rode Apachceland to Gold Canyon to Cougar to 2GM to GM to Diamondback to K to Phantom to Kiki to Secret to K to Horsetrail to Apacheland. On 12/21 it rained like heck and when we rode GC on the 22nd at around 11 AM all the washes were raging. It was pretty spectacular to say the least.

    During the ride I didn't feel we were doing any damage to those trails. It seemed like they (except GM) are so well routed and the trail tread is so resilient to heavy rain that no trail damage was occurring.

    During your riding at GC have you found any of those trails being damaged by irresponsible riders?
    Last edited by Switchblade2; 01-04-2017 at 11:18 AM.

  18. #18
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    ^ I don't know Gold Canyon like I know Hawes, but I've never seen Hawes wrecked from rainy riding. Hell, I went out at night during the Snowpacylpse rain event in the valley (late JAN 2010), complete with funnel clouds, and that granite soil is so porous and compliant that any marks made are erased with the drying out and/or more rain.




  19. #19
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    I ride Gold Canyon on 12/28 and other than horses on K tech loop (really taking horses?) I saw nothing concerning. I don't ride there much so I can't say how the trails might have been different.
    Joe
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  20. #20
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    Yep, Hawes handles rain really well. It is hard to find a puddle. Also the DG out there self heals so well. I look forward to the big rains that tear up the trails every year.

    On the flip side, there are some trails that I think should not be riden dry. Moving around lose dirt in the steeps can cause a bunch of damage too.

    I hear you guys in regards to other areas and using common sense. The whole widening of trail is what is really frustrating. Active trails do not get tighter. I wonder if it would be better etiquette to blast through the puddle on the main line? Let's face it, no matter how righteous you are, you will run into a puddle from time to time.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    OK, being a stravaidiot I have a question....

    "2 Jair Lee Jan 1, 2017 11.3mi/h - 54W - 8:02"

    What does the 'W' indicate?


    And why is the #1 position not listed? Someone from the site?
    She's a woman...or a Wookie
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  22. #22
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    there's a lot of very sand hard coarse grained trails in Browns that do very well in the wet.. .whiskey bottle is not one of them.. you just gotta know the trails.. if ya don't know them, turn around immediately when you get into the cookie dough or just stay off them..

  23. #23
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    I mostly use Strava to unlock access to Strava's killer climbing challenge kits, but if I see a PR within reach, I'm definitely not going to let a little puddle and mud get in the way.

  24. #24
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    You do know its just dirt, not a rare work of art from Michelangelo, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by profro View Post
    You do know its just dirt, not a rare work of art from Michelangelo, right?
    Out here it seems the dirt becomes like cement after it dries after the rains. So you end up having these huge ruts that you either get stuck in or have to ride across all the chatter. Some areas become a real killjoy due to the ruts caused by cyclists or horses, especially out at browns ranch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seandm View Post
    Out here it seems the dirt becomes like cement after it dries after the rains. So you end up having these huge ruts that you either get stuck in or have to ride across all the chatter. Some areas become a real killjoy due to the ruts caused by cyclists or horses, especially out at browns ranch.
    Maybe you get stuck. But I digress, if you want the KOM you deserve, cut the corners like everyone else!
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by seandm View Post
    Out here it seems the dirt becomes like cement after it dries after the rains. So you end up having these huge ruts that you either get stuck in or have to ride across all the chatter. Some areas become a real killjoy due to the ruts caused by cyclists or horses, especially out at browns ranch.
    Yep, the trail gets all bumpy...no mountain biker wants that!

  28. #28
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    You can all do what I do. Check Strava for who rode the trail in question on those days (you've already done this), and then comment on their ride. Let them know that what they did is not appreciated and give them a resource to check trail conditions in the future.
    I'm a mountain bike guide in southwest Utah

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe View Post
    You can all do what I do. Check Strava for who rode the trail in question on those days (you've already done this), and then comment on their ride. Let them know that what they did is not appreciated and give them a resource to check trail conditions in the future.
    Nothing is more badass than a Strava gumshoe.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Went out to Browns this morning to get in on some of the hero dirt conditions out there...
    What I expected to see was a $hit-ton of damage from whorses...
    What I found was $hit-ton of damage from MTBR's....holy crap people...if you rode Whiskey Bottle Trail on the north slide of Fraesfeld Mtn on 1/1 or 1/2/2017, you are a d*ck...sorry, but a goddamn m*therf*cking dick. We complain about horses effing up the trails yet can't stay off the f*cking trails that are most vulnerable to damage when wet.
    I was out at Browns checking out trail conditions. If they were muddy conditions on Monday, wouldn't they have still been muddy on Tuesday, when you rode?

    I noticed a lot of horse post-holes on Whiskey Bottle, 136th Express, and Hawknest, as well as a couple others. And yes, there were a lot of bike tire ruts from riders going through the mud on Whiskey Bottle.

    Perhaps the damage will inspire the preserve managers and stewards to do some preventative trail work. Just as you approach the mountain on Whiskey Bottle, going south, you ride through a very sandy wash. They should spend several weeks transporting sand up onto the tread where it has little or no sand in it. The trails that can be ridden the day after a rain are the ones with a 50/50 sand-soil mix. Just start laying sand on those muddy sections. They also need to create more outslope on that 3/4 mile section of trail. The rain water pooled and then the hikers and bikers and horses turned it to paste. The preserve knew of this condition since day one and has failed to address it. They've been too bust posting signs telling bikers to dismount and walk their bikes.

    The preserve must have 300 stewards. Mostly, they don't do any actual trail work. They just hike the trails in their blue shirts, waiting for a bike to come past them going too fast or not yielding the way they want them to. They need to hand these guys shovels and buckets and tell them to move the sand out of places it causes problems and onto places it prevents problems. Ten they need to post signs at the front gate telling horse owners they need to wait 72 hours before riding after a rain storm and telling mountain bikers to wait 48 hours. The guy that unlocks the gate each day can simply keep it locked until trails are ready to use.

    If they choose not to do anything, they can expect more post-holes and more ruts.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrickhall View Post
    Nothing is more badass than a Strava gumshoe.
    Except old people hollering "Get of my lawn d*ckhead-mother-f*ckers!! Youíre hurting my dirt!"

  32. #32
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    I don't know which is more infuriating- people not respecting the trail enough to stay off when it's muddy, or people not respecting the land managers asking people to stay off.

    It may just be 'lumpy dirt' to you, but in a preserve or park, it's a threat to access when other users see a hundred tire ruts and decide to pursue making tires not welcome.
    It's also a sh!tload of work to fix those ruts.
    What's more important: stay off for a day, or stay out forever?
    Donít modify the trail to match your skills, modify your skills to match the trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ARandomBiker View Post
    It's also a sh!tload of work to fix those ruts.
    Embrace it
    Trail Damage Rant-ruts-9.jpg

  34. #34
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    McDowell access gates are all on timers. I like your other suggestions and comments. Lots of blue shirts giving MTB folks the stink eye for no reason.

    I love coming up on a group of 40-50 of them hiking while I am on my ride. Being loud, walking 5-6 wide, commenting on MTB's from the anonymity of a passing group They break every rule out there, but its cool. They have blue shirts so it is okay. This has occurred 3 times in the past year.



    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    I was out at Browns checking out trail conditions. If they were muddy conditions on Monday, wouldn't they have still been muddy on Tuesday, when you rode?

    I noticed a lot of horse post-holes on Whiskey Bottle, 136th Express, and Hawknest, as well as a couple others. And yes, there were a lot of bike tire ruts from riders going through the mud on Whiskey Bottle.

    Perhaps the damage will inspire the preserve managers and stewards to do some preventative trail work. Just as you approach the mountain on Whiskey Bottle, going south, you ride through a very sandy wash. They should spend several weeks transporting sand up onto the tread where it has little or no sand in it. The trails that can be ridden the day after a rain are the ones with a 50/50 sand-soil mix. Just start laying sand on those muddy sections. They also need to create more outslope on that 3/4 mile section of trail. The rain water pooled and then the hikers and bikers and horses turned it to paste. The preserve knew of this condition since day one and has failed to address it. They've been too bust posting signs telling bikers to dismount and walk their bikes.

    The preserve must have 300 stewards. Mostly, they don't do any actual trail work. They just hike the trails in their blue shirts, waiting for a bike to come past them going too fast or not yielding the way they want them to. They need to hand these guys shovels and buckets and tell them to move the sand out of places it causes problems and onto places it prevents problems. Ten they need to post signs at the front gate telling horse owners they need to wait 72 hours before riding after a rain storm and telling mountain bikers to wait 48 hours. The guy that unlocks the gate each day can simply keep it locked until trails are ready to use.

    If they choose not to do anything, they can expect more post-holes and more ruts.
    Less f*cks to give every passing day, use them well. - geraldooka

  35. #35
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    LOL, I think some of you are trying to pretend you're in Sedona with this drama. And I can't believe one of you ding dongs has yet to just wear a god damn blue shirt when wasting time riding out there.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  36. #36
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    Truly frustrating to ride miles of hardened horse tracks today. High Desert - Desperado - Coyote Canyon, Granite mtn - Branding Iron. And some of them cant even stay on the trail, they will cause the edges to crumble outward and widen.
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  37. #37
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    In general, I dislike those who are cavalier about trail issues, damage, etc.

    However, I biked the Whisk Bottle Trail on Fraesfield Mountain today and...the trail was almost perfect (same with 136th Street Express). Apparently there was enough bike traffic on the trail while it was still soft, but not muddy, to smooth out most of the ruts/tracks. There are a couple of spots where bikes went very wide to either side while it was still muddy. Even in those places there is still a smooth path in the middle.

    I'm not sure what to think. It goes against what I would have expected and what we're told. I'm not saying that it means everyone should go out when it's muddy...but in this case, there's not much "damage" left to see.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    In general, I dislike those who are cavalier about trail issues, damage, etc.

    However, I biked the Whisk Bottle Trail on Fraesfield Mountain today and...the trail was almost perfect (same with 136th Street Express). Apparently there was enough bike traffic on the trail while it was still soft, but not muddy, to smooth out most of the ruts/tracks. There are a couple of spots where bikes went very wide to either side while it was still muddy. Even in those places there is still a smooth path in the middle.

    I'm not sure what to think. It goes against what I would have expected and what we're told. I'm not saying that it means everyone should go out when it's muddy...but in this case, there's not much "damage" left to see.
    I'm pretty much with you.

    However, at the end of the day, it is not really that hard to stay off the trails for a day or two after a lot of rain. There are so many options out here that it is pretty simple to find an alternate place where the trails are not so soft and land managers are not asking people to stay off. And totally worst case scenario - there is always the road.

    I get the "need" to ride. I'm on my bike more days than not. But I also believe in being an responsible, respectful adult. Sometimes it just isn't about what I want.

    Given how little we have to deal with this sort of thing (thankfully), one would hope that riders could find an alternative. But then I guess there will always be self absorbed children who just can't resist doing whatever they want.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtownmtb View Post
    I'm pretty much with you...

    Given how little we have to deal with this sort of thing (thankfully), one would hope that riders could find an alternative. But then I guess there will always be self absorbed children who just can't resist doing whatever they want.
    I always try to be mindful of how good we have it here.
    Not only are the trails thankfully rarely muddy, but no one is trying to shut us out when some bad apples misbehave....yet.
    We don't have half the issues that some places do. The Gov't isn't closing down areas, or policing a speed limit. eBike use is largely allowed as long as you're not an asshat about it, and we don't have any real trail sabotage, aside from that one fat-ass putting rocks on T100 last year. Some places get logs and sharp sticks and razor wire.

    It shouldn't be that hard to just mind (our) manners so this remains.
    Donít modify the trail to match your skills, modify your skills to match the trails.

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    M F ***** raising hell about stuff, maybe the ruts didn't get smoothed out and it was an over reaction?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    We complain about horses effing up the trails yet can't stay off the f*cking trails that are most vulnerable to damage when wet.
    This is not helping:
    https://factoryjackson.com/2017/01/1...-out-and-ride/

    It makes me sad to read how they indirectly encourage such trail damage.


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    OMG! Someone rode in the mud.! Sacre bleu! Alert the media!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creepy McPenis View Post
    OMG! Someone rode in the mud.! Sacre bleu! Alert the media!
    Nice "troll" username.
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

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    Last week one of the local trails was closed because it was claimed that there could be ice on it that might be hard to see. It was for our own protection.


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  45. #45
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    Mmmmhmmmm.....

    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  46. #46
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    That is the name of my Grandpappy McPenis. God rest his shrived soul.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by detsortehul View Post
    This is not helping:
    https://factoryjackson.com/2017/01/1...-out-and-ride/

    It makes me sad to read how they indirectly encourage such trail damage.

    imo, places that get wet a lot and have different soil respond differently. Here, the trail will harden and stay that way for months. The impact of hard storms is different here too since they are not the norm.
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  48. #48
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    Dredging up an old thread. This is why we can't have nice things.
    Rode pretty much everything at Apache Wash today- Sidewinder around to the north parking lot, then back on Ocotillo, north over Razorback, AW loop to cliff walk/Esplanade to the Carefree underpass, back in on Esplanade.
    This was everywhere. More so on the flat east side, but there was plenty on Ocotillo too.
    These are pretty much baked in at this point. Concrete hard.
    I don't know which I'm more irritated with, the ruts, or the bypass that makes what was once a trail now a permanent 10' wide double-track.
    Trail Damage Rant-ruts2.jpg
    Trail Damage Rant-ruts.jpg
    Donít modify the trail to match your skills, modify your skills to match the trails.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARandomBiker View Post
    Dredging up an old thread. This is why we can't have nice things.
    Rode pretty much everything at Apache Wash today- Sidewinder around to the north parking lot, then back on Ocotillo, north over Razorback, AW loop to cliff walk/Esplanade to the Carefree underpass, back in on Esplanade.
    This was everywhere. More so on the flat east side, but there was plenty on Ocotillo too.
    These are pretty much baked in at this point. Concrete hard.
    I don't know which I'm more irritated with, the ruts, or the bypass that makes what was once a trail now a permanent 10' wide double-track.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Yeah but it sure looks awesome to cruise now on my quad with a twelve pack of Natty Ice.

  50. #50
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    Funny you say that, I actually got passed by a guy on a 4-stroke Honda and his kid on smaller Yamaha on the AW loop about 40 minutes before the above pics were taken. My intent was to flag him down and politely explain that he had wandered off State land and into the Preserve where no motor vehicles were allowed. They were riding slow, and gave a wide berth, arcing off into the desert, so no need for me to be an a$$hole, but when I got his attention, he gave me the downward hand-flip gesture like 'leave me alone'.
    Donít modify the trail to match your skills, modify your skills to match the trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ARandomBiker View Post
    Funny you say that, I actually got passed by a guy on a 4-stroke Honda and his kid on smaller Yamaha on the AW loop about 40 minutes before the above pics were taken. My intent was to flag him down and politely explain that he had wandered off State land and into the Preserve where no motor vehicles were allowed. They were riding slow, and gave a wide berth, arcing off into the desert, so no need for me to be an a$$hole, but when I got his attention, he gave me the downward hand-flip gesture like 'leave me alone'.
    Oh shoot, that was you? Sorry, I didn't feel like talking to anyone. Next time I'll stop and hand you one of my Natties.

  52. #52
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    what are the best tires for riding damaged trails ?

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by RajunCajun44 View Post
    what are the best tires for riding damaged trails ?
    HA! Now we're talkin!

  54. #54
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    That good news is that given all the rain we had in the last 18hrs those ruts will be gone. Unless someone else goes out and makes new ones.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  55. #55
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    How long should stay off that area before its rideable?


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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ARandomBiker View Post
    Funny you say that, I actually got passed by a guy on a 4-stroke Honda and his kid on smaller Yamaha on the AW loop about 40 minutes before the above pics were taken. My intent was to flag him down and politely explain that he had wandered off State land and into the Preserve where no motor vehicles were allowed. They were riding slow, and gave a wide berth, arcing off into the desert, so no need for me to be an a$$hole, but when I got his attention, he gave me the downward hand-flip gesture like 'leave me alone'.
    Agreed that they should not be there. As a moto and mtb guy, this area kind of upsets me. The oldest moto club in the state worked for a long time to get that area approved for moto and built the trails. Scottsdale bought the land to kick all the motos off and then the preserve/Brown's Ranch popped up. Try to be polite to the moto folks like AR wanted to do, even though first reaction is to get pi$$ed.

  57. #57
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    That area use to be called Murphy's Trail...Back in the good moto days.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePAz View Post
    That good news is that given all the rain we had in the last 18hrs those ruts will be gone. Unless someone else goes out and makes new ones.
    I just saw some pics of the Spur Cross area, and Apache Wash under Carefree Highway. 5' deep and 50' wide, running at like 10k cfs. Bike tire ruts and hoof prints are about the least of our problems now.
    Donít modify the trail to match your skills, modify your skills to match the trails.

  59. #59
    Ahhh the pain....
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    much of the watershed for AW received well over an inch of rain in this storm...the gage out at 7 springs recorded nearly 3.5"! whoa...cave creek damn might actually be holding back a real lake now...lol...

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    Although this was put in the Brown's Ranch Damage thread, he was talking about the Apache Wash area in Phoenix Sonoran Preserve....definately not in Scottsdale....FWIW..

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