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  1. #1
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    Tragic

    http://www.azdailysun.com/articles/2...ont_207612.txt

    And they say flag is bike friendly....

  2. #2
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    Bicycle friendly is a relative term. Compared to Prescott, any city with bike lanes is bicycle friendly, for instance.

    This is really sad. I am not impressed with the newspaper's choice of the word "collision." This cyclist seems to clearly have been "struck" rather than "involved in a collision."

  3. #3
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    I have a friend who lives up in Flag....but has also lived here. He tells me that he always feels safer commuting in PHX than FLG.




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    The "entangled in the trucks wheel housing" comment gave me the creeps. I dont want to get hit by a car let alone a garbage truck.

  5. #5
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    Sadness for the rider and his family.

    Once I had a car turn in front of me and I flipped over the trunk, another time I almost got squished by an RV type vehicle. Both times they turned right, across the bike lane, never saw me. Dunno if they looked. I'm going to try to remember this danger-spot a little better than I sometimes do.
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  6. #6
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    It seems like 90% of my close calls are the same situation, cholla. Just without the bike lanes, since Prescott only has a mile or two of bike lanes total.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velokid1
    It seems like 90% of my close calls are the same situation, cholla. Just without the bike lanes, since Prescott only has a mile or two of bike lanes total.
    Yes, very sad, and quite a graphic description in the paper.

    I think most who ride on the road have similar close calls. I can think of one case where a driver intentionally tried to get close to cyclists (ironically, it was during the Tour de Scottsdale, where you would think drivers would be extra careful).

    Not to sound like a broken record, as this question comes up every time this kind of stuff occurs, but I guess the question is, what can we do as cyclists do to make ourselves more visible? I think wearing bright clothes is one step. I've seen large orange flags on some bikes. Any other suggestions? Unfortunately, accidents will happen--I'm sure the truck driver didn't intentionally run the cyclist over.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Yes, very sad, and quite a graphic description in the paper.

    I think most who ride on the road have similar close calls. I can think of one case where a driver intentionally tried to get close to cyclists (ironically, it was during the Tour de Scottsdale, where you would think drivers would be extra careful).

    Not to sound like a broken record, as this question comes up every time this kind of stuff occurs, but I guess the question is, what can we do as cyclists do to make ourselves more visible? I think wearing bright clothes is one step. I've seen large orange flags on some bikes. Any other suggestions? Unfortunately, accidents will happen--I'm sure the truck driver didn't intentionally run the cyclist over.
    in that situation, nothing. You can't be visible to someone who isn't looking. At night, I shine my headlamp on the drivers, but that would not have done much good in this situation either. Be paranoid.
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  9. #9
    vmb
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    Not an intentional highjack of this thread...

    This event is tragic and I am not trying to capitalize on it.

    There was however another another thread (about a parking nazi and the virtues of riding to the trail) where skinny-tire said:

    >>Not riding your bike on the road is because of cars is like refusing to shop a Circle K because of the robberies. I guess if you want to live in fear, so be it.

    now you say:

    >>> I think most who ride on the road have similar close calls. I can think of one case where a driver intentionally tried to get close to cyclists (ironically, it was during the Tour de Scottsdale, where you would think drivers would be extra careful).

    >>>Not to sound like a broken record, as this question comes up every time this kind of stuff occurs, but I guess the question is, what can we do as cyclists do to make ourselves more visible? I think wearing bright clothes is one step. I've seen large orange flags on some bikes. Any other suggestions? Unfortunately, accidents will happen--I'm sure the truck driver didn't intentionally run the cyclist over.


    You don't sound like a broken record, you sound like a.... (never mind, I'm not getting into name calling). All I know is you made my case why I don't ride on roads. If that makes me pragmatic, a wuss, whatever, I could care less....

    For the record, I neither drive to the trailhead (as you assumed) or ride roads to the trail head. I in fact ride from my house down the bike path to SoMo

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmb
    This event is tragic and I am not trying to capitalize on it.

    There was however another another thread (about a parking nazi and the virtues of riding to the trail) where skinny-tire said:

    >>Not riding your bike on the road is because of cars is like refusing to shop a Circle K because of the robberies. I guess if you want to live in fear, so be it.

    now you say:

    >>> I think most who ride on the road have similar close calls. I can think of one case where a driver intentionally tried to get close to cyclists (ironically, it was during the Tour de Scottsdale, where you would think drivers would be extra careful).

    >>>Not to sound like a broken record, as this question comes up every time this kind of stuff occurs, but I guess the question is, what can we do as cyclists do to make ourselves more visible? I think wearing bright clothes is one step. I've seen large orange flags on some bikes. Any other suggestions? Unfortunately, accidents will happen--I'm sure the truck driver didn't intentionally run the cyclist over.


    You don't sound like a broken record, you sound like a.... (never mind, I'm not getting into name calling). All I know is you made my case why I don't ride on roads. If that makes me pragmatic, a wuss, whatever, I could care less....

    For the record, I neither drive to the trailhead (as you assumed) or ride roads to the trail head. I in fact ride from my house down the bike path to SoMo
    I'm confused? It makes me sound like what?

    How do my comments made in the other thread have anything to do with comments I made above?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  11. #11
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    Scenarios

    The most frequent scenarios in this kind of accident are:

    Vehicle passes the cyclist then turns right assuming that the bike is slower than it really is.

    Cyclist is passing a vehicle on the right and the vehicle turns.

    Either way, the result is the same. I commuted by bike for about 20 years until my job required that I take a company vehicle home every day. Although its important to be as visible as possible, lights, blinkers, reflectors, bright colors, it is more important to ride as if you are invisible to drivers, pedestrians and other cyclists.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFS

    Vehicle passes the cyclist then turns right assuming that the bike is slower than it really is...
    I've been thinking about this one as it happens to me a lot (as a driver) turning into my neighborhood off of Warner. I usually slow before the turn and stay alongside the rider to sort of shield him and warn traffic behind me that I'm turning and then I wait for the rider to clear the intersection but I wonder what the law is.

    If I actually pass a rider (in a bike lane) and signal to turn right, it seems to me that he should yield to the turning vehicle ahead of him - is that true? Is there a different rule in the case of no bike lane?

    If I understand it correctly, then it's not a matter of the driver "assuming the bike is slower than it really is" but the bike rider failing to yield properly to the turning traffic in front of him.

    Can someone help me out?
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  13. #13
    Mike-e
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    While you are driving your car.... don't hit someone on a bike. Is that clear enough?

  14. #14
    OFS
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    "If I actually pass a rider (in a bike lane) and signal to turn right, it seems to me that he should yield to the turning vehicle ahead of him - is that true? Is there a different rule in the case of no bike lane?

    If I understand it correctly, then it's not a matter of the driver "assuming the bike is slower than it really is" but the bike rider failing to yield properly to the turning traffic in front of him."

    If the vehicle has fully passed the cyclist, then the cyclist should yield, if not, the vehicle is burdened. This doesn't happen as much with cars as it does with trucks because they are shorter and generally quicker to slow and turn. I've had several trucks get part way past me while they were slowing to turn, and start the turn while I was beside them. The only way out is to be aware of their possible intent and avoid them. Even if the cyclist has the right of way, size rules.

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    This was co-worker of mine. He was a heck of a good kid, a reservist, and a hard worker.

    The intersection where this happened is extremely busy with heavy trucks heading in all directions. It is on my way home and I guarantee I will never ride it again without being extremely sketched out.

    Be careful out there.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike-e
    While you are driving your car.... don't hit someone on a bike. Is that clear enough?
    If only it were that simple. Our brains are not wired that way when we are driving vehicles. You can wear all the lights and neon jerseys you want, but if a driver is not expecting to see a rider, he won't see one, even if the rider is there. The image is not processed in the brain because the driver is concerned about vehicles on the road (which could potentially harm them). This is the real problem, and solving it is not going to be accomplished with greater fines/punishment and wearing bright clothes/lights may not do anything.
    Last edited by Jayem; 11-18-2009 at 10:44 AM.
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  17. #17
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    essjss-sorry for your loss.

    skiny-tire, sorry you have a hater that takes that much time to quote old post of yours.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire

    Not to sound like a broken record, as this question comes up every time this kind of stuff occurs, but I guess the question is, what can we do as cyclists do to make ourselves more visible? I think wearing bright clothes is one step. I've seen large orange flags on some bikes. Any other suggestions? Unfortunately, accidents will happen--I'm sure the truck driver didn't intentionally run the cyclist over.
    I don't think making ourselves more noticeable is the key (although it can't hurt). These are the keys in my experience: Extreme defensive riding, Understanding vehicles blind spots, never being in a vehicles blind spot for more than necessary, not reacting emotionally to drivers mistakes, willingness to sacrifice a bit of speed for safety when approaching intersections, anticipating yellow/red light blowers, assuming that the person waiting to make a left turn at a light will not see you, always scanning the road, etc...
    This sounds like a lot, but is becomes second nature after a short while. I'm sure most of us already do it.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman
    , assuming that the person waiting to make a left turn at a light will not see you, .
    Thats the one that spooked me last week. I have one intersection between me and the Taliesin trail (Cactus and Frank Lloyd Wright) and some geriatric tried to mow me down.. I ass- u -med he saw me and rode with the green light.... i was pedaling like a mofo to get to the medium once I realized he was coming through with no clue I was in his cataract spots.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo
    Thats the one that spooked me last week. I have one intersection between me and the Taliesin trail (Cactus and Frank Lloyd Wright) and some geriatric tried to mow me down.. I ass- u -med he saw me and rode with the green light.... i was pedaling like a mofo to get to the medium once I realized he was coming through with no clue I was in his cataract spots.
    yeah..at some level you have to assume being plainly visible makes you plainly visible. I was walking my bike and my dog at an intersection with a stop sign in Las Sendas, and some older woman was stopped at the stop sign, then started to come through when I was standing right in front of her. There is no defense for that.
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  21. #21
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    Be visible and presume not a single driver sees you whether walking, driving or riding.
    Sometimes that is still not enough.
    This is just need to know information: Am i supposed to enjoy the irony or pity the sincerity?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFS
    The most frequent scenarios in this kind of accident are:

    Vehicle passes the cyclist then turns right assuming that the bike is slower than it really is.

    Cyclist is passing a vehicle on the right and the vehicle turns.

    Either way, the result is the same. I commuted by bike for about 20 years until my job required that I take a company vehicle home every day. Although its important to be as visible as possible, lights, blinkers, reflectors, bright colors, it is more important to ride as if you are invisible to drivers, pedestrians and other cyclists.
    Very good summary. I totally agree.

    I try to not pass vehicles on the right ever, especially when approaching an intersection. Sometimes this means leaving the bike lane and integrating with slower/stopped traffic rather than splitting the lane/gutter to get to the head of the line.
    Quote Originally Posted by buddhak
    And I thought I had a bike obsession. You are at once tragic and awesome.

  23. #23
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    When you are riding in a designated bike lane, traveling on the right side of the roadway of a four lane road like Butler Avenue, are you technically riding in the same lane of traffic as the vehicles in the curb lane or are you in your own distinct three foot wide lane of traffic? If the latter is true, a vehicle passing by you and then turning into a driveway is cutting across your lane of traffic and must yield the right of way until "the movement can be made with reasonable safety."

    I was riding casually on a public sidewalk when I approached a restaurant driveway. I saw a van exiting his parking space and approaching the end of the driveway to enter traffic on the street next to me. He never saw me and began exiting the lot. He struck my bike as I lifted my leg to avoid getting it crushed. The bike was knocked over and I tumbled into the traffic lane. The drive paniced and later stated he meant to put his foot on the brake pedal but accidentally put it on the accellerator pedal. I could see him continuing to drive forward, over the top of my bike, hearing the sounds of tubes being crushed and breaking. I instintively rolled further into the traffic lanes to avoid being run over by the van, while hoping traffic on that street could see what was happening and slow to avoid running me over as I lay in their path.

    I survived with minor injuries. The driver said he was very sorry and that he would pay for a new bike. He explained he was from Korea and was unfamiliar with this van he had borrowed from a friend. I contacted the owner, later in the day and she told me her friend had left town and that he explained the accident to her, saying it was my fault. Her insurance company did an investigation and after six weeks they called me to say that the accident was 10% my fault and 90% their clients fault.

    The fatal bike accident here in Flagstaff will be investigated and a determination will be made regarding fault. It is possible the driver making the right turn into the recycling center will be 100% at fault. It may be determined that he is less than 100% responsible. The key to the investigation is whether the traffic lights at that intersection were red or green for him and the cyclist. Some are suggesting the light was red and the truck may have stopped for it before proceeding to turn, assuming the cyclist had stopped for the red light. Very few vehicles pull out of that driveway during the day and cyclist, including myself, often roll through the intersection regardless of the color of the traffic light, simply glancing to the right to make sure no vehicles are coming out of that driveway. The one flaw in doing that would be in that rare instance when the vehicle stopping for the traffic light decides to turn right.

    As a witness to a fatal accident years ago involving a young child crossing a street to get to her mother and being struck by a car, I can say with certainty that there will be conflicting witness statements about what happened. In the moments following the accident I witnessed, there was much chaos. The mother was screaming loudly as I attempted to assess and help the child. As minutes passed and emergency vehicles were arriving, crowds gathered. Most were not witnesses or had even heard the accident happen. One young man felt so badly for the mother who was about to lose her daughter, that he made up a story about the driver speeding through the stop sign to strike the child. I supose he wanted help provide some sort of justice, I just don't know and couldn't believe what I heard him tell the investigation officer. Later I told the officer that she could walk over to the street and see one of the sandals the child was wearing at the time of impact, as it remained at that point when the child was knocked forward. The driver appeared to be driving well below the 25mph limit and had struck the child at least 30 feet before the stop sign.

    We had another serious accident here yesterday involving a pedestrian crossing Milton Ave. The pedestrian was struck by a sprot untility vehicle turing left off of a cross street. Accident investigators had closed the road in both directions and were taking measurments and pictures as we were passing by on our way to dinner last night. This usually indicates they expect it to become a fatality, despite the papers saying the victim was in serious condition. The resulting investigations of these two accidents should help people understand what took place in the moments prior to the accidents. I won't need to wait to decide about how much more careful I need to be when riding in traffic. I take too many chances and put myself at too much risk. I need to change my riding habits right away.

    From the Arizona Revised Statutes

    A.R.S.28-754. Turning movements and required signals

    A. A person shall not turn a vehicle at an intersection unless the vehicle is in proper position on the roadway as required in section 28-751, or turn a vehicle to enter a private road or driveway or otherwise turn a vehicle from a direct course or move right or left on a roadway unless and until the movement can be made with reasonable safety. A person shall not so turn any vehicle without giving an appropriate signal in the manner provided by this article in the event any other traffic may be affected by the movement.

    B. A signal of intention to turn right or left when required shall be given continuously during not less than the last one hundred feet traveled by the vehicle before turning.

    C. A person shall not stop or suddenly decrease the speed of a vehicle without first giving an appropriate signal in the manner provided by this article to the driver of any vehicle immediately to the rear when there is opportunity to give the signal.

  24. #24
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son

    I was riding casually on a public sidewalk...
    They call them sideWALKs for a reason...

  25. #25
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    Just terrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why don't we have tougher laws to protect our cyclists? Seems as though the Law always protects or is rigged for the MV driver. Arizona seems to be a big proponent of alternative(green) transportation and yet cyclists are getting killed every year and what happens to the driver.......usually NOTHING. My heart goes out to the family of the biker. On a seperate note, the whole town kind of went downhill when they stopped Tour de Fat at the park.

  26. #26
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    I just don't ride on the road period. I don't trust anyone in a car, whether I'm walking or in a car myself. Always assume the other guy is a complete moron with a deadly weapon. I don't care if it's not the best thing for the environment, I'm alive.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vmb
    This event is tragic and I am not trying to capitalize on it.

    There was however another another thread (about a parking nazi and the virtues of riding to the trail) where skinny-tire said:

    >>Not riding your bike on the road is because of cars is like refusing to shop a Circle K because of the robberies. I guess if you want to live in fear, so be it.

    now you say:

    >>> I think most who ride on the road have similar close calls. I can think of one case where a driver intentionally tried to get close to cyclists (ironically, it was during the Tour de Scottsdale, where you would think drivers would be extra careful).

    >>>Not to sound like a broken record, as this question comes up every time this kind of stuff occurs, but I guess the question is, what can we do as cyclists do to make ourselves more visible? I think wearing bright clothes is one step. I've seen large orange flags on some bikes. Any other suggestions? Unfortunately, accidents will happen--I'm sure the truck driver didn't intentionally run the cyclist over.

    You don't sound like a broken record, you sound like a.... (never mind, I'm not getting into name calling). All I know is you made my case why I don't ride on roads. If that makes me pragmatic, a wuss, whatever, I could care less....

    For the record, I neither drive to the trailhead (as you assumed) or ride roads to the trail head. I in fact ride from my house down the bike path to SoMo
    You seem very comfortable with the notion that riding SoMo is safer than riding on the roads. There has been a lot of yapping about the dangers of road riding. Well, perhaps it is possible that riding SoMo is more dangerous than road riding. IMO, mountain bike riding is in fact significantlymoe dangerous than riding on the road.

    As to your recap of Skinny-Tire's comments, I have no idea what your point is. Other than a cheap attempt at calling him a name without actually calling him a name and proclaiming your righteous hatred of road riding, I don't get what the point of your post was.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  28. #28
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    Oh, I do have some safety tips for road riding, as follows:

    1. Take the lane more often. Hugging the curb is often more dangerous than taking the lane.

    2. Never pass on the right. I just don't do it, period.

    3. Come to full stops at all stop signs and red lights. I don't blow through intersections and I don't do the California stop thingy. I unclip at stops. This not only provides certainty for the drivers at intersections, it is a good habit to have as a rdier. I have been out there for years. I have had more potential accidents arising from not fully stopping and unclipping than I have had from "being exposed and unclipped while crossing an intersection and thus being deprived of the ability to escape danger quickly". The argument that not unclipping is safer because a rider has the ability to escape danger quickly is one of the biggest loads of all time.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    You seem very comfortable with the notion that riding SoMo is safer than riding on the roads. There has been a lot of yapping about the dangers of road riding. Well, perhaps it is possible that riding SoMo is more dangerous than road riding. IMO, mountain bike riding is in fact significantlymoe dangerous than riding on the road.

    As to your recap of Skinny-Tire's comments, I have no idea what your point is. Other than a cheap attempt at calling him a name without actually calling him a name and proclaiming your righteous hatred of road riding, I don't get what the point of your post was.

    Now you've done it ... You're gonna get a nasty PM stating how much he does not want to discuss any matters with you. I hope you can live with yourself.. I'm not sure I can

  30. #30
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    Info on Joshua's life. He will be missed.

    http://azdailysun.com/articles/2009/...ont_207659.txt

  31. #31
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    Rules to LIVE by...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike-e
    While you are driving your car.... don't hit someone on a bike. Is that clear enough?
    Here are the rules to LIVE by, that I figured out when I was only ten years old:

    1. Cars and trucks (and even motorcycles) are bigger heavier and more solid than me.
    2. They may very well likely NOT see me.
    3. SOME of them, if they DO see me, WILL TRY TO HIT ME!
    4. Therefore, it is my job, (according to basic laws of physics) to dodge cars!

    There may be laws in each state that say otherwise, but I follow a higher set of laws; the laws of physics, as it is quite difficult to assert your "legal rights" from the grave!!!

    Assume that all drivers DO NOT SEE YOU and if they did, THEY WOULD TRY TO HIT YOU. It is really just like encountering a bear in the woods. The bear may not be aware of your approach, and may not get out of your way; and if it does see you, IT MAY ATTACK YOU! Therefore, when on the trail, it is your job to avoid bears; and when on the road, it is your job to avoid cars.

    STAY ALERT: STAY ALIVE!!!

    Assuming that anyone else or anything else actually gives a [email protected] about your rights, let alone is paying attention to them, is a way to get eaten alive in this crazy world!!! Plenty of people who have assumed otherwise, have made the news, and not in a good way...
    Last edited by Bike Doc; 11-22-2009 at 03:22 PM.
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  32. #32
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    You THINK you are VISIBLE...

    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    yeah..at some level you have to assume being plainly visible makes you plainly visible. I was walking my bike and my dog at an intersection with a stop sign in Las Sendas, and some older woman was stopped at the stop sign, then started to come through when I was standing right in front of her. There is no defense for that.
    I have seen it several times, the cyclist or pedestrian is crossing a side street where a motor vehicle is waiting at a red light or stop sign. The non-motorized individual looks at the driver of the motor vehicle, who APPEARS to be looking directly back at them. The non-motorized individual therefore assumes that they are "seen", and are therefore "safe" to cross, in front of the stopped motor vehicle. In reality, the driver of the motor vehicle is staring at the truck approaching from half a block away, and thinking, "If I punch the gas pedal to the floor, real quickly, I can pull out before that truck gets here and blocks my way..."

    I've witnessed plenty of close calls from this exact scenario, and working in bike shops, heard many times of the tragic results of this scenario played out to its worst possible conclusion.

    Therefore, when I am approaching an intersection with vehicles stopped at a side street or driveway, unless the driver physically acknowledges me with a VERY DISTINCT nod of the head or waves me through with their hand; I swoop BEHIND them, rather than passing in front. Not only is this far safer, it also allows the driver to pull out before the approaching truck arrives, and is therefore a courtesy to the impatient driver, who is in a hurry to get to their next waiting point!
    If more people rode more bikes, more places, more often, the world would be a more better place!

  33. #33
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    The notion that you should ride as if you are invisible is absolutely right. But the rest of the overly paranoid stuff... why even ride bikes if it's so excruciating and fear-riddled for you? I would have hung up my riding shoes long ago if I were that uncomfortable on a bike.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bike Doc
    I have seen it several times, the cyclist or pedestrian is crossing a side street where a motor vehicle is waiting at a red light or stop sign. The non-motorized individual looks at the driver of the motor vehicle, who APPEARS to be looking directly back at them. The non-motorized individual therefore assumes that they are "seen", and are therefore "safe" to cross, in front of the stopped motor vehicle. In reality, the driver of the motor vehicle is staring at the truck approaching from half a block away, and thinking, "If I punch the gas pedal to the floor, real quickly, I can pull out before that truck gets here and blocks my way..."
    I almost got hit in the roundabout on 48th Street by South Mountain last week in this exact scenario while commuting home from work. I entered the roundabout and was looking directly into the eyes of some older woman stopped and getting ready to enter from the side street. I rolled on through staring her directly in the eyes the whole way, she was looking directly into my eyes as well (or so I wrongly assumed). Soon as I was directly in front of her she hit the gas and lurched at me, scared the hell out of me but I was going just fast enough that she missed. I certainly will handle that intersection differently from now on.

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    There is a ghost bike at the intersection of Butler and Babbit. I wonder how many people here are aware of its significance. My family and were out running errands (on our bikes) yesterday and shared a moment of silence there as several other people rode past not even seeming to notice.

    There has been a definite, noticeable increase in the ambient levels of driver aggression and intolerance towards cyclists up here recently. I'm not sure what the cause is, but watch yourselves out there...

    I nearly got sideswiped by a pick-up truck on Milton near Target yesterday... came up behind me, honked and passed so close I had to lean to avoid being clipped by the passenger side mirror. I guess the bright orange trailer with my 1.5 year old son in it isn't enough incentive for people to be courteous and careful.

    There isn't a week that goes by where I don't get various commentary yelled out of car windows making it clear that my presence on the road is not desired. Last week I was nearly rear-ended by a car because I stopped at a stop sign. The driver started cursing at me for almost causing an accident.

    Flagstaff may have many people who enjoy cycling... but it is NOT a bike friendly town.

    I'm going to start collecting plate numbers and reporting these a$$h0l3s. I'm sick and tired of the running advice encouraging cyclists to ride like their lives are in danger all the time and wait for the tragic deaths to provide the statistics to support this advice. I think any driver who is involved in any kind of accident or near accident with a cyclist should lose their driving privileges for a month and have to commute by bike. THAT might change something.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg
    I've been thinking about this one as it happens to me a lot (as a driver) turning into my neighborhood off of Warner. I usually slow before the turn and stay alongside the rider to sort of shield him and warn traffic behind me that I'm turning and then I wait for the rider to clear the intersection but I wonder what the law is.

    If I actually pass a rider (in a bike lane) and signal to turn right, it seems to me that he should yield to the turning vehicle ahead of him - is that true? Is there a different rule in the case of no bike lane?

    If I understand it correctly, then it's not a matter of the driver "assuming the bike is slower than it really is" but the bike rider failing to yield properly to the turning traffic in front of him.

    Can someone help me out?
    Yeah, technically it sounds correct, but if you are driving and a car speeds up passes you and then makes you slow down so they can turn, I am guessing that you wouldn't be pleased ... and that a cop might have something to say to them about wreckless driving.

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  38. #38
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    Wow! I had to rewind that to see that they were not screwing with me....




  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunset1123

    There has been a definite, noticeable increase in the ambient levels of driver aggression and intolerance towards cyclists up here recently. I'm not sure what the cause is, but watch yourselves out there...


    I'm going to start collecting plate numbers and reporting these a$$h0l3s. I think any driver who is involved in any kind of accident or near accident with a cyclist should lose their driving privileges for a month and have to commute by bike. THAT might change something.
    I went on a long ride yesterday that just happened to take me past the accident scene. I tried to imagine what happened that day. I think the light must have been green when the two collided.

    I have not noticed any change in driver aggression in Flagstaff. There has always been a lot of bad driving. I was nearly stuck a couple times last week, but it was while driving a one ton dually and not my bike. Like Phoenix, we have a large number of uninsured drivers who statistically cause more accidents and then flee the scene. Plus, you have NAU students. Holiday traffic also tends to be more aggressive and less patient. Maybe that is what you are noticing.

    Collecting license plate numbers will only cause you more frustration. You'll have to stop your ride and get out a pencil and paper, and then you'll call the police and say what, exactly? Someone just honked their horn at me or shouted at me and this is their license plate number? The answer will be; so what. You don't expect the police to go to the registered owners home and ask them if they were involved in an incident where they shouted at a biker, do you? Every day I witness a driver running a light or cutting off another car, or in some way driving unsafely. You can only hope they do it in front of the law and get stopped. You seem to assume that all accidents and near accidents between bikes and cars are the fault of the driver of the car. I think it would more likely be the majority of accidents but not all. I'm aware of three biker fatalities in the last 13 years here. A drunk driver caused one. A 16 year-old girl who said the sun was in her eyes caused another, and this recent accident that is still under investigation. With all the bad driving I see every day in Flagstaff, I'm surprised there aren't 2-3 fatal accidents each year.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    Holiday traffic also tends to be more aggressive and less patient. Maybe that is what you are noticing.
    True enough, and holiday traffic was certainly a factor this last weeked, but I mean over the course of the last, say, 3 months. And I'm not just talking bad drivers... I mean an increase in the attitude that says "I'm in a big ass vehicle, this is MY road, get the F*** off of it or I will splatter you across the pavement," the "bicycles belong on the sidewalk" mentality.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    Collecting license plate numbers will only cause you more frustration. You'll have to stop your ride and get out a pencil and paper, and then you'll call the police and say what, exactly? Someone just honked their horn at me or shouted at me and this is their license plate number? The answer will be; so what. You don't expect the police to go to the registered owners home and ask them if they were involved in an incident where they shouted at a biker, do you?
    Stop 'my ride'? When I'm riding in town, I'm running errands... getting from one place to another. It isn't like some major interruption of my 'flow' to deal with a situation that may eventually get someone killed. You seem to think that all that happens here is honking and yelling... it is actually fairly obvious when someone is using their vehicle for the purposes of intimidation... or tries to hit you or force you off the road... Sorry, I DO expect the police to do something about that.

    There are laws which apply to various kinds of 'road rage' between vehicles. Sure, they involve more that just horn honking or shouting out the window... but when someone deliberately takes a swipe at you with their car I think that should count as assault.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    Every day I witness a driver running a light or cutting off another car, or in some way driving unsafely. You can only hope they do it in front of the law and get stopped. You seem to assume that all accidents and near accidents between bikes and cars are the fault of the driver of the car.
    Not at all, sir. I see cyclists running lights and stop signs all the time. There are many accidents and close calls that are clearly the fault of cyclists, due to failing to follow the rules of the road. IMO, this is the kind of behavior that causes much of the intolerance from drivers. In the case where I was almost slammed into from behind when I stopped at the stop sign, the driver was clearly expecting me to just keep right on going... probably because that's what most other cyclists do: ignore the stop signs.

    So, my thanks to all the idiotic cyclists who are putting my life in danger because I choose to ride according to what is sane, safe, and legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    With all the bad drivers and careless cyclists I see every day in Flagstaff, I'm surprised there aren't 2-3 fatal accidents each year.
    I fixed it for you.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son
    Every day I witness a driver running a light or cutting off another car, or in some way driving unsafely.
    I think you hit upon a good point. When we are on a bicycle, this stuff is accentuated. I see this crap all the time while driving, but I don't feel like I am going to get killed by it.

  42. #42
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    The police won't do anything about one aggressive, threatening driver. I was intentionally struck by a road rager last summer and the police talked me out of filing a report, promising to visit the guy and ask him to be more respectful of cyclists. Not all police are going to talk you out of filing a report like that, but they generally cannot locate and reprimand a motorist based on one witness' testimony and they certainly won't prosecute.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velokid1
    The police won't do anything about one aggressive, threatening driver. I was intentionally struck by a road rager last summer and the police talked me out of filing a report, promising to visit the guy and ask him to be more respectful of cyclists. Not all police are going to talk you out of filing a report like that, but they generally cannot locate and reprimand a motorist based on one witness' testimony and they certainly won't prosecute.
    but dont you think if they get enough calls logged about certain topics, that would eventually influence how they prioritize? Also, pressing charges if you have a plate etc helps you identify the driver, and there are lots of things that yuo can do to get your payback - civil suit, flyers all over their neighborhood, inform their coworkers, call the news...those are just the legal ones.
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  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    but dont you think if they get enough calls logged about certain topics, that would eventually influence how they prioritize? Also, pressing charges if you have a plate etc helps you identify the driver, and there are lots of things that yuo can do to get your payback - civil suit, flyers all over their neighborhood, inform their coworkers, call the news...those are just the legal ones.
    Cholla-

    Yes, I do agree 100% with that. When I was replying earlier I was interrupted here at my desk by that pesky "work" stuff. Didn't get to finish my thought.

    I do absolutely believe that all cyclists should be reporting every significantly dangerous or frightening incident they experience.* The primary reason that things don't improve is that cyclists under-report incidents.

    In my case last summer, for instance, I got the distinct impression that my case wasn't taken as gravely as it should have been because (1) my bicycle incurred no damage and I wasn't physically injured even though I was knocked to the ground and (2) because so few incidents are reported, the few that are tend to be looked at as just a whiney cyclist complaining.

    *We should also be reporting to the City every dangerous infrastructure condition we see, i.e. dangerous grates, glass shards on shoulders, pot holes, traffic signals that are not tripped by a person on a bicycle (forcing you to run the red light), etc. Consider that you cannot sue the City for ANY dangerous roadway condition that was not previously brought to the City's attention and then given sufficient time for them to correct the dangerous condition. They are not obligated to repair/correct anything until it is reported to them.

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