Sunrise Vs. Candy et al- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    suvlako
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    Sunrise Vs. Candy et al

    Let me start by saying that I am not posting this to ruffle any feathers but to provoke thought among our Smokenspokes brethren and others that have been intimitely involved with Sunrise and the DH/FR scene. While I have expressed my sincere appreciation for SS hard work and dedication, I am really perplexed that they(and the DH scene) would turn their backs on efforts directed at improving SR. It seems to me that Candy Mountain and Globe, are hardly sustainable and in the long term have very little promise in the way of a real DH mountain. It's almost like expecting that the city of Phx will put in a lift at SOMO. Once again, I am not saying that Globe, Candy, SOMO are not fun, but they hardly seem like they can "become" something more than they are.

    Sunrise on the other hand, already has a devoted following, trails, lifts, personnel and while clearly not the most dedicated personnel, that is changeable. When they realize that they have a gem on their hands and that the DH segment is growing very quickly and one day, huge droves of people will come to shred.

    When Smokenspokes walked away as builders and the liasons to the DH scene, that leaves a huge hole in terms of who or what organization will step in to hopefully facilitate the growth of the sport and the mountain's summer "program". I spoke with Stevo in Pinetop last weekend and he himself said that he, along with james and Joey are in fact the liasons and that stuff can't get done without their leadership. So in essence, Sunrises' future is "adrift" in uncertainty and no one to help push the scene along becuase we have turned our(dh/fr) attention on these other venues to ride.

    I feel like the decision to pursue other ventures was a hasty one based on pride and a sense that positive things weren't happening fast enough. My hope is that Sunrise does not shut us out yet again next year for lack of support. When it comes right down to it, Sunrise is the only lift accessed MTBing and I will support them before, Globe, Candy or any other mountain(my local Mt. Lemmon included). I am hoping that others share my sentiment. To SS and SBJ, I am eternally in your debt for your efforts thus far, so please do not take this the wrong way. Backlash in 3....2....1.

  2. #2
    AZ
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    My thoughts , if we do not continue to support Sunrise we will risk losing it . I know that Smokenspokes and others have put alot of work into Sunrise with no real support or commitmant from the managment. I wish that I could say that the situation is going to change , it probably wont . Being that Sunrise is the only lift assisted venue , I believe that we have to continue working with them however difficult it is .Once they see that it is economicly viable they may wish to fully vest themselve into a dh friendly venue. The only thing that shows them that it works are numbers , lift tickets sold.Revenues drive the whole show , if we do not patronize the facility they close it , that simple . If Smokenspokes no longer wish to work with them maybe someome else might have some form of sucess working with them , change of scenery pehaps .

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvlako
    Let me start by saying that I am not posting this to ruffle any feathers but to provoke thought among our Smokenspokes brethren and others that have been intimitely involved with Sunrise and the DH/FR scene. While I have expressed my sincere appreciation for SS hard work and dedication, I am really perplexed that they(and the DH scene) would turn their backs on efforts directed at improving SR. It seems to me that Candy Mountain and Globe, are hardly sustainable and in the long term have very little promise in the way of a real DH mountain. It's almost like expecting that the city of Phx will put in a lift at SOMO. Once again, I am not saying that Globe, Candy, SOMO are not fun, but they hardly seem like they can "become" something more than they are.

    Sunrise on the other hand, already has a devoted following, trails, lifts, personnel and while clearly not the most dedicated personnel, that is changeable. When they realize that they have a gem on their hands and that the DH segment is growing very quickly and one day, huge droves of people will come to shred.

    When Smokenspokes walked away as builders and the liasons to the DH scene, that leaves a huge hole in terms of who or what organization will step in to hopefully facilitate the growth of the sport and the mountain's summer "program". I spoke with Stevo in Pinetop last weekend and he himself said that he, along with james and Joey are in fact the liasons and that stuff can't get done without their leadership. So in essence, Sunrises' future is "adrift" in uncertainty and no one to help push the scene along becuase we have turned our(dh/fr) attention on these other venues to ride.

    I feel like the decision to pursue other ventures was a hasty one based on pride and a sense that positive things weren't happening fast enough. My hope is that Sunrise does not shut us out yet again next year for lack of support. When it comes right down to it, Sunrise is the only lift accessed MTBing and I will support them before, Globe, Candy or any other mountain(my local Mt. Lemmon included). I am hoping that others share my sentiment. To SS and SBJ, I am eternally in your debt for your efforts thus far, so please do not take this the wrong way. Backlash in 3....2....1.
    i guess now is where i bash that fat ass firecrotch. hope his boss reads this. What a prick he is he was telling the riders he hopes it rains more to shut the lift down because he is sick of loading bikes and could be doing something more productive and the dh bikes were a waste of time. You dont tell that **** to your customers and employers shouldnt employ people that dont support their business decisions. which is to open the hill to us and in turn hopefully make a profit.

    My friend also asked if he could load his 5k trek by putting the fixture throught a certain spot. The Firecrotch got right back with attitude asking if he wanted to load the bike himslef and then said if he didnt like it he could ride up the fire road to the top. He is such a C*ck stain.

    He has made me have a grudge to sunrise alone i will still ride there but it just lights a fire under me.

    and of course we didnt talk back because we could tell he would just take our passes and was looking to. he is on a power trip with no enticement from my group
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  4. #4
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    All those guys have put in too much unpaid time at surise.Its easy to see where theyed get sick of dealing with the Native BS.Maybe concentrate on Flagstaff.C'mon ,2 hrs away,actual amenities,off the 40 so other statrs would come here?I would be up there so much more than Sunrise.Of course I've got a full life and won't be the one sacrificing my time to get any of it done.I'll pay 40 bucks to ride there though.

  5. #5
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    The Candy mt race was one of my all time favorites. I hope they do another there.

  6. #6
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    I feel that SS was justified in walking away from Sunrise. All they did was give and give and all the resort wanted to do was take. Thats not how a relationship works. I feel that if they want us to drive 4 hours stay at thier **** hole lodge and pay to ride thier 4 mediocre trails then they need to start investing into building some better stuff. I think there are much better places to ride that are free and closer. They have caused this on them selves and personaly I wont miss them if they close again. It sure didnt hurt the DH crowd last time, actually we grew and became closer by exsploring other venues and starting things like the Wed Am shuttle and other things of the sort. Just my 2 cents.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvlako
    It's almost like expecting that the city of Phx will put in a lift at SOMO. Once again, I am not saying that Globe, Candy, SOMO are not fun, but they hardly seem like they can "become" something more than they are.


    spoke with Stevo in Pinetop last weekend and he himself said that he, along with james and Joey are in fact the liasons and that stuff can't get done without their leadership. So in essence, Sunrises' future is "adrift" in uncertainty and no one to help push the scene along becuase we have turned our(dh/fr) attention on these other venues to ride.

    I feel like the decision to pursue other ventures was a hasty one based on pride and a sense that positive things weren't happening fast enough. My hope is that Sunrise does not shut us out yet again next year for lack of support. When it comes right down to it, Sunrise is the only lift accessed MTBing and I will support them before, Globe, Candy or any other mountain(my local Mt. Lemmon included). Backlash in 3....2....1.
    'Let me start by saying that I am not posting this to ruffle any feathers but to provoke thought among our Smokenspokes brethren and others that have been intimitely involved with Sunrise and the DH/FR scene. While I have expressed my sincere appreciation for SS hard work and dedication, I am really perplexed that they(and the DH scene) would turn their backs on efforts directed at improving SR. It seems to me that Candy Mountain and Globe, are hardly sustainable and in the long term have very little promise in the way of a real DH mountain. ''

    ..let me help you perplexity's.........show up for some work...
    Working with the FS is pretty simple.......they know whats up...easy to deal with and are strait up. Both of witch are in FS areas. I do believe those are long term places to ride.

    "When Smokenspokes walked away as builders and the liasons to the DH scene"
    I'm sure you feel you have some pretty valid points.....one fact though, I/we have not walked away from anything.....just no longer going to put forth LABOR hours for NEW sections....just so you and everyone eles know trails take time to BUILD.. them right. I have one NEW trail section that links Sticks and Stones above the old Collar Bone (that's why Collar Bone was closed off) that runs the whole tree section, not just 60 ft. of it, then spits you out above mid lodge. So I guess thats being "adrift" just because theres no news letter being sent out weekly on trail updates doesn't mean things aren't happing..Sorry for not putting up signs.

    "Sunrise on the other hand, already has a devoted following, trails, lifts, personnel and while clearly not the most dedicated personnel, that is changeable. When they realize that they have a gem on their hands and that the DH segment is growing very quickly and one day, huge droves of people will come to shred. "

    You know how many times they have had this brought to them,maybe we were talking to the wrong people for the past 8+yrs SBJ. You gat some one you can talk to..??

    "that leaves a huge hole in terms of who or what organization will step in to hopefully facilitate the growth of the sport and the mountain's summer "program".

    REALLY......WOW......thanks for your support. I'm sorry we are unable to cater to yours and everyones needs, we try are best to create a event or gathering that we feel will be reasonable done with very lill split ups. We are doing are best and thank those that support SSG.

    "I am hoping that others share my sentiment. "

    I do..

    "do not take this the wrong way. ''

    So you asked to spit in our face....you did....and now your saying don't take it the wrong way....Ok, I won't.... I will turn this into positivity....So what are you able to bring to the table that will help out our DH/FR demand? All the help that you or anyone brings to the table will only help us all in the end.

    Thanks again.

    Steve-O

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokenspokesSteve-o
    'Let me start by saying that I am not posting this to ruffle any feathers but to provoke thought among our Smokenspokes brethren and others that have been intimitely involved with Sunrise and the DH/FR scene. While I have expressed my sincere appreciation for SS hard work and dedication, I am really perplexed that they(and the DH scene) would turn their backs on efforts directed at improving SR. It seems to me that Candy Mountain and Globe, are hardly sustainable and in the long term have very little promise in the way of a real DH mountain. ''

    ..let me help you perplexity's.........show up for some work...
    Working with the FS is pretty simple.......they know whats up...easy to deal with and are strait up. Both of witch are in FS areas. I do believe those are long term places to ride.

    "When Smokenspokes walked away as builders and the liasons to the DH scene"
    I'm sure you feel you have some pretty valid points.....one fact though, I/we have not walked away from anything.....just no longer going to put forth LABOR hours for NEW sections....just so you and everyone eles know trails take time to BUILD.. them right. I have one NEW trail section that links Sticks and Stones above the old Collar Bone (that's why Collar Bone was closed off) that runs the whole tree section, not just 60 ft. of it, then spits you out above mid lodge. So I guess thats being "adrift" just because theres no news letter being sent out weekly on trail updates doesn't mean things aren't happing..Sorry for not putting up signs.

    "Sunrise on the other hand, already has a devoted following, trails, lifts, personnel and while clearly not the most dedicated personnel, that is changeable. When they realize that they have a gem on their hands and that the DH segment is growing very quickly and one day, huge droves of people will come to shred. "

    You know how many times they have had this brought to them,maybe we were talking to the wrong people for the past 8+yrs SBJ. You gat some one you can talk to..??

    "that leaves a huge hole in terms of who or what organization will step in to hopefully facilitate the growth of the sport and the mountain's summer "program".

    REALLY......WOW......thanks for your support. I'm sorry we are unable to cater to yours and everyones needs, we try are best to create a event or gathering that we feel will be reasonable done with very lill split ups. We are doing are best and thank those that support SSG.

    "I am hoping that others share my sentiment. "

    I do..

    "do not take this the wrong way. ''

    So you asked to spit in our face....you did....and now your saying don't take it the wrong way....Ok, I won't.... I will turn this into positivity....So what are you able to bring to the table that will help out our DH/FR demand? All the help that you or anyone brings to the table will only help us all in the end.

    Thanks again.

    Steve-O
    CANDY MNT. all the way itchs

  9. #9
    AZ
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    What is the Forest Service position on Candy Mountain?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    What is the Forest Service position on Candy Mountain?
    none at the time, they know its there. We laid everything out to them, even gave them a copy of Freedom Riders to watch..... Hiked up it yesterday and talked to Launa..she works the fire tower lookout...beautiful view by the way.. we were talking this and that, and I asked her if she noticed an increase in vistors and trafic..a big yes with a smile is how she answered. So things are good fer now.

    There hasn't been any building out there this season, just some rework and scouting..

    all in all a great summer for Candy Mnt. as a NEW DH hill in North East Az.

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    AZ
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    Thanks for the reply , sounds good .

  12. #12
    suvlako
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    As for as you put it "spitting in your face", I am not sure how fostering dialogue is spitting in your face? Are you a birther or one of the people who showed up to contest healthcare reform? I guess you didn't read the part about being in debted to you? My point was that perhaps it is time to pass the baton to someone else or possibly another group to coordinate work dates, negotiate with the tribe, and work with the SR personnel. I would be happy to be the person to spearhead that and think my time would be better spent doing that then working on a mountain that will never have a lift and relatively limited possibilities for growth. Hell, I have GREAT dh riding right in my backyard with Mt. Lemmon, but quite frankly, I get sick of running into hikers and traffic on the road up during shuttle runs. Somo riders, ring a bell?

    As for Flagstaff, when they open lifts to DH, then post it. Until then it's a mute point. To address Greffster's comment about SSG's time invested in Sunrise, I am not saying that I wouldn't have done the same thing, and I for one have a life as well and understand SSG's reluctance to invest their time in SR, however, nothing good comes easy and if you take Sol Vista for example, three years ago they offered free lift passes all season in an attempt to get people up to their mountain. A few guys much like SSG talked them into doing this and just a few short months ago, they hosted the US Nationals. How's that for a cinderella story? It didn't happen over night and it didn't come without a lot of commitment from a lot of people. In addition, I think it is sad that their isn't more support from the community and that most all of the burden has been carried on about four guys shoulder's(SSG). This is me complimenting you again....

    Last but not least, to answer your question about what I do to help the DH/FR scene? Come on doen to T town and I will take you to aspen draw trail(one of Tucson's real DH trails and a good one I might add) that I, my wife and two pack mules(rotties), clear of dead fall, over grown brush, thorn bushes. A job that should be taken care of by Mt. lemmon ski valley and the forest service, but does not get done because ski valley doesn't give a **** and the forest service is under funded and can't provide a trail crew. If you have ridden this trail in the last 3 years, your truly has made it possible for you to have a 12 minute run without having to get off your bike and hop over trees four feet thick. Furthermore, I do so without expectation of pats on the back, notoriety or any other alterior motive. Know your audience my man...

    Perhaps AZMNTS and I can have the contact info of the "higher ups" their at the mountain or even better, maybe you can introduce us/me to them and pass the proverbial torch and see if something changes. In an attempt to extend an olive branch to my Dh brethren(namely SSG) and as an act of good faith, you tell me when to be up there and I will be there to help throw dirt(I am talking about Sunrise, of course).

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvlako
    As for as you put it "spitting in your face", I am not sure how fostering dialogue is spitting in your face? Are you a birther or one of the people who showed up to contest healthcare reform? I guess you didn't read the part about being in debted to you? My point was that perhaps it is time to pass the baton to someone else or possibly another group to coordinate work dates, negotiate with the tribe, and work with the SR personnel. I would be happy to be the person to spearhead that and think my time would be better spent doing that then working on a mountain that will never have a lift and relatively limited possibilities for growth. Hell, I have GREAT dh riding right in my backyard with Mt. Lemmon, but quite frankly, I get sick of running into hikers and traffic on the road up during shuttle runs. Somo riders, ring a bell?

    As for Flagstaff, when they open lifts to DH, then post it. Until then it's a mute point. To address Greffster's comment about SSG's time invested in Sunrise, I am not saying that I wouldn't have done the same thing, and I for one have a life as well and understand SSG's reluctance to invest their time in SR, however, nothing good comes easy and if you take Sol Vista for example, three years ago they offered free lift passes all season in an attempt to get people up to their mountain. A few guys much like SSG talked them into doing this and just a few short months ago, they hosted the US Nationals. How's that for a cinderella story? It didn't happen over night and it didn't come without a lot of commitment from a lot of people. In addition, I think it is sad that their isn't more support from the community and that most all of the burden has been carried on about four guys shoulder's(SSG). This is me complimenting you again....

    Last but not least, to answer your question about what I do to help the DH/FR scene? Come on doen to T town and I will take you to aspen draw trail(one of Tucson's real DH trails and a good one I might add) that I, my wife and two pack mules(rotties), clear of dead fall, over grown brush, thorn bushes. A job that should be taken care of by Mt. lemmon ski valley and the forest service, but does not get done because ski valley doesn't give a **** and the forest service is under funded and can't provide a trail crew. If you have ridden this trail in the last 3 years, your truly has made it possible for you to have a 12 minute run without having to get off your bike and hop over trees four feet thick. Furthermore, I do so without expectation of pats on the back, notoriety or any other alterior motive. Know your audience my man...

    Perhaps AZMNTS and I can have the contact info of the "higher ups" their at the mountain or even better, maybe you can introduce us/me to them and pass the proverbial torch and see if something changes. In an attempt to extend an olive branch to my Dh brethren(namely SSG) and as an act of good faith, you tell me when to be up there and I will be there to help throw dirt(I am talking about Sunrise, of course).
    On my first post I almost stated that I wasnt gonna play....no its said..

    you have some good points, one er two that may help......but if you really think your gona get the key pasted to you......you, now thats funny..

    One quick question, do you ride a green bike????...Titus??? I hope this is you.....

    I just might miss globe to hang with you this weekend......

    enough of this time hole...of to SR to service the rental fleet, look at a hill that could be so much more, then leave..

  14. #14
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    I see you mofo's...sixty,doodoo,.......... az.mnt....who are you

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokenspokesSteve-o
    I see you mofo's...sixty,doodoo,.......... az.mnt....who are you

    Sixty please 86 this thread........I'm gona lose it

  16. #16
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    All I'm going to say...

    I personally don't care about Sunrise. Long drive, trails are ok. I've had good times up there for sure and since SteveO and Joey and the other guys worked on the trails, they have been awesome.
    But I'm also not going to cry if it goes away again. DH/FR's are used to trails and spots disappearing all the time.
    I think its better if the sport remains underground, small and off the radar. But that's not my call, just my opinion.

    Suvlako, I don't understand the point of your post...it sounded more like a rant than opening dialogue. If you think you can do a better job, then do it. I don't see why you would need to annouce it...

  17. #17
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    I have listened to SBJ's story about Sunrise and how there has been 3 different attempts within the last 10 years or so to get the Tribe on board. It is nearly a lost cause until someone takes the reigns that wants money. The Tribe doesn't care; they are accustomed to chillin on the Govt's dime in the middle of the street with wild dogs and elk all over the place. It is fun and a nice escape from the heat, even convienent because of the lifts; but variety is the spice of life and there are many other lift assisted areas that are in CO, NM, CA. If Sunrise closes, that will free up more time for roadtrippin'.

    BTW, Candy and Globe are awesome.

  18. #18
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    Bootleg is only an hours more drive than Sunrise. Lift? please...buy a truck and shuttle King Cobra and bubba scrubs fo life. More coffee please.
    Bender to AZDog: I'm not the best person to give advice on not riding!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdog
    Bootleg is only an hours more drive than Sunrise. Lift? please...buy a truck and shuttle King Cobra and bubba scrubs fo life. More coffee please.
    Those trucks are too pretty to shuttle with...might get scratched.

    The Boot is the real deal.

    bubba SCRUB.

  20. #20
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    This thread makes me laugh.

    You may all now return to getting your hair done.

    That is all.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    This thread makes me laugh.

    You may all now return to getting your hair done.

    That is all.

    Wait I didn't see Markskee or Azdog on here. Is there a trace of hair gel and cans of hair spray laying around????
    .Hoog just texted me and said it's "Surface area to G2 tangential force vector ratio optimization. "

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokenspokesSteve-o
    Sixty please 86 this thread........I'm gona lose it
    Sorry mang, can't 86 anything, thats Paul B's territory.

    And honestly, I don't care anymore.

    All the gear h00rs, whiners and nay sayers need to stfu and just ride your f'ing bikes or just go full emo and start cutting yourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    This thread makes me laugh.

    You may all now return to getting your hair done.

    That is all.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    Sorry mang, can't 86 anything, thats Paul B's territory.

    And honestly, I don't care anymore.

    All the gear h00rs, whiners and nay sayers need to stfu and just ride your f'ing bikes or just go full emo and start cutting yourselves.
    They didn't buy their bikes to ride them...

  25. #25
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    There is less drama on Desert Classic.
    Bender to AZDog: I'm not the best person to give advice on not riding!

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by azdog
    There is less drama on Desert Classic.
    'cause they are too busy texting.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by KavuRider
    All I'm going to say...

    I personally don't care about Sunrise. Long drive, trails are ok. I've had good times up there for sure and since SteveO and Joey and the other guys worked on the trails, they have been awesome.
    But I'm also not going to cry if it goes away again. DH/FR's are used to trails and spots disappearing all the time.
    I think its better if the sport remains underground, small and off the radar. But that's not my call, just my opinion.

    Suvlako, I don't understand the point of your post...it sounded more like a rant than opening dialogue. If you think you can do a better job, then do it. I don't see why you would need to annouce it...

    I am kinda in the same boat as kavu here. Sunrise is fun, but the main reason for me trying to get up there this busy summer is to try and support SSG in all their effort. I pay my 20 buks in hopes to keep business going and ride the trails that SSG have sustained with there hard work at SR. I know I haven't thrown that much dirt this summer. But I try and come out and support when I can.

    And as for Suvlako, Well buddy you just kind of dug yourself into a hole here. But for just some motivation for you, you should head up and start throwing some dirt around and prove all of us wrong cause if you do, it will just be another place for us to really ride. If you say someone got to step up to the plate, well then, let it be you my friend. Good luck!


    SSG THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT TRAILS AND EVENTS THAT YOU HAVE PUT ON FOR US PHX RIDERS AND AZ AS A WHOLE!!!!! MUCH RESPECT.......
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  28. #28
    suvlako
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    Holy PMS... No I don't ride a titus and yes you have met me a few times. I live in Tucson so forgive me for not being a "ring leader". Funny how when asked to pass the torch, you're not willing to give up the "key". Key to what? Afraid somebody might do it better? Afraid someone might get the praise for all your hardwork? Either lead or get out of the way... If the key isn't given to me, then give it so someone.

    The argument that the tribe historically has not been cooperative is again mute, as there was not nearly the demand three years ago(let alone 10 yrs ago) for DH that there is now. Now is the time to focus on SR.

    "Suvlako, I don't understand the point of your post...it sounded more like a rant than opening dialogue. If you think you can do a better job, then do it. I don't see why you would need to annouce it..."

    As I mentioned in the beginning, nothing can happen without SSG's blessing and support as they are the liasons to SR. I could show up with twenty people and a back hoe and I would not be allowed to do a damn thing without SSG's approval. My point is, I believe that trail building and development efforts would be better allocated to SR, not Candy or Globe.

    This weekend I will be at Sunrise and then next in Whistler but when I get back, I WILL quitely show up for trail work and put my shovel where my mouth is. Let's see if SSG will lead or get out of the way with respect to SR.

    To Steveo, I understand why you might be a little sensitive to this thread, but **** man, go see a shrink or pop some prozak if you're that unhappy. My words have been pretty unthreatening and sensitive to your feelings thus far, all you have done is sling ****.

  29. #29
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    Ok this is just crazy. Suvlako, I understand where you are coming from but I will politely have to disagree with pretty much everything you have to say. Here are the reasons we stopped working with Sunrise....

    1. They are a real pain in the ass to work with. As employees of Cactus Bike and owners of Smoken Spokes we interact with them quite a lot. They don't help, they have no drive, they don't pay and when they do agree to pay they dont actually pay up for MONTHS.
    2. It is really ****in far away. We live in Phoenix. The onyl reason we are up there for the summer is to run the Cactus Bike shop in Pinetop. When you have to work Saturday and Sunday it makes it really hard to work on trails on Saturday and Sunday...so yea...we are at the mercy of our full time jobs.
    3. I only speak for myself on this one...but Sunrise is not in my HEART. I dont give a sht about lift access. I like to ride up, I like to shuttle, I like to ride the personal trails that are filled with charachter that are elsewhere in the state. I would rather support the Forest Service than the Tribe....simply put.
    4. Everyone must realize, this is just one aspect of our lives. We are DEDICATING our personal lives to helping the gravity community here but there is only so much we can give with OTHER FULL TIME JOBS, I am a full time STUDENT, Steve-O is about to be a full time DAD, and ofcourse, we have the WOMEN in our lives that as all of you know those take LOTS of time and effort.

    Simply put. We are doing this because it is what we love to do. If we end up doing something we arent happy doing then we might as well be working for someone else. We want to help EVERYONE who loves to ride bikes and show everyone a good time while staying honest, positive, and happy.

    We are all friends here and we all love to ride our bikes. So with all do respect to anyone who does not agree with or does not like what we are doing....Suck it

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokenspokesJoe
    Ok this is just crazy. Suvlako, I understand where you are coming from but I will politely have to disagree with pretty much everything you have to say. Here are the reasons we stopped working with Sunrise....

    1. They are a real pain in the ass to work with. As employees of Cactus Bike and owners of Smoken Spokes we interact with them quite a lot. They don't help, they have no drive, they don't pay and when they do agree to pay they dont actually pay up for MONTHS.
    2. It is really ****in far away. We live in Phoenix. The onyl reason we are up there for the summer is to run the Cactus Bike shop in Pinetop. When you have to work Saturday and Sunday it makes it really hard to work on trails on Saturday and Sunday...so yea...we are at the mercy of our full time jobs.
    3. I only speak for myself on this one...but Sunrise is not in my HEART. I dont give a sht about lift access. I like to ride up, I like to shuttle, I like to ride the personal trails that are filled with charachter that are elsewhere in the state. I would rather support the Forest Service than the Tribe....simply put.
    4. Everyone must realize, this is just one aspect of our lives. We are DEDICATING our personal lives to helping the gravity community here but there is only so much we can give with OTHER FULL TIME JOBS, I am a full time STUDENT, Steve-O is about to be a full time DAD, and ofcourse, we have the WOMEN in our lives that as all of you know those take LOTS of time and effort.

    Simply put. We are doing this because it is what we love to do. If we end up doing something we arent happy doing then we might as well be working for someone else. We want to help EVERYONE who loves to ride bikes and show everyone a good time while staying honest, positive, and happy.

    We are all friends here and we all love to ride our bikes. So with all do respect to anyone who does not agree with or does not like what we are doing....Suck it

    whiner.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvlako
    Holy PMS... No I don't ride a titus and yes you have met me a few times. I live in Tucson so forgive me for not being a "ring leader". Funny how when asked to pass the torch, you're not willing to give up the "key". Key to what? Afraid somebody might do it better? Afraid someone might get the praise for all your hardwork? Either lead or get out of the way... If the key isn't given to me, then give it so someone.

    The argument that the tribe historically has not been cooperative is again mute, as there was not nearly the demand three years ago(let alone 10 yrs ago) for DH that there is now. Now is the time to focus on SR.

    "Suvlako, I don't understand the point of your post...it sounded more like a rant than opening dialogue. If you think you can do a better job, then do it. I don't see why you would need to annouce it..."

    As I mentioned in the beginning, nothing can happen without SSG's blessing and support as they are the liasons to SR. I could show up with twenty people and a back hoe and I would not be allowed to do a damn thing without SSG's approval. My point is, I believe that trail building and development efforts would be better allocated to SR, not Candy or Globe.

    This weekend I will be at Sunrise and then next in Whistler but when I get back, I WILL quitely show up for trail work and put my shovel where my mouth is. Let's see if SSG will lead or get out of the way with respect to SR.

    To Steveo, I understand why you might be a little sensitive to this thread, but **** man, go see a shrink or pop some prozak if you're that unhappy. My words have been pretty unthreatening and sensitive to your feelings thus far, all you have done is sling ****.
    I don't think you understand how long we've been trying to get things going up there with new trails and events. None of us have been able to get them on board with any kind of major effort to make that place what it could be. I know for a fact they won't let you take any heavy equipment up there. Don't think you're coming up with any new ideas. Please feel free to jump in on a trail crew anytime you want and toss some dirt. That's about all we can do for now. Just keep showin' up and riding until they tell us to leave

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokenspokesJoe
    Ok this is just crazy. Suvlako, I understand where you are coming from but I will politely have to disagree with pretty much everything you have to say. Here are the reasons we stopped working with Sunrise....

    1. They are a real pain in the ass to work with. As employees of Cactus Bike and owners of Smoken Spokes we interact with them quite a lot. They don't help, they have no drive, they don't pay and when they do agree to pay they dont actually pay up for MONTHS.
    2. It is really ****in far away. We live in Phoenix. The onyl reason we are up there for the summer is to run the Cactus Bike shop in Pinetop. When you have to work Saturday and Sunday it makes it really hard to work on trails on Saturday and Sunday...so yea...we are at the mercy of our full time jobs.
    3. I only speak for myself on this one...but Sunrise is not in my HEART. I dont give a sht about lift access. I like to ride up, I like to shuttle, I like to ride the personal trails that are filled with charachter that are elsewhere in the state. I would rather support the Forest Service than the Tribe....simply put.
    4. Everyone must realize, this is just one aspect of our lives. We are DEDICATING our personal lives to helping the gravity community here but there is only so much we can give with OTHER FULL TIME JOBS, I am a full time STUDENT, Steve-O is about to be a full time DAD, and ofcourse, we have the WOMEN in our lives that as all of you know those take LOTS of time and effort.

    Simply put. We are doing this because it is what we love to do. If we end up doing something we arent happy doing then we might as well be working for someone else. We want to help EVERYONE who loves to ride bikes and show everyone a good time while staying honest, positive, and happy.

    We are all friends here and we all love to ride our bikes. So with all do respect to anyone who does not agree with or does not like what we are doing....Suck it
    Here, here Joey! Plus we only got like 3 weeks left at Sunrise, I mean 6 days available for digging and riding. Maybe somebody can figure something out for next year at sunrise. What about the rest of the year? Lets put forth the work on something we ALL can ride and enjoy the rest of the year. If you wanna get down with the go down crew, this weekend is the place in GLOBE. I'm unfortunatley gonna miss it, but my heart and head will be with all you digging, shredding fools!

  33. #33
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    Agreed .

    Also the work that we have put in up in the pinals over the last few years has been well worth it and the FS is easy to work with. It only keeps getting better for us .
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  34. #34
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    this thread got bad quick. its just hard because the mountain is tribe owned. Someone mentioned a lift at south mountain. that would be fun but would never happen. I really like the trails at sunrise etc and have probably rode with a few of you. I know i rode with a few people that work at cactus up there and had a blast cant remember the name but red haired younger guy that i think rode a black transistion not fish. my only complaint was the staff working at sunrise not anyone that was maintaing trails etc, not sunrise itself. I wish i would have joined the forum before planning my trip to there and i would have gone to globe to go help and ride. camping sounds like a blast.

    Well im done with this thread as its getting negative anyone at sunrise tomorrow have a blast ! ill be riding from open to close
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvlako
    Let me start by saying that I am not posting this to ruffle any feathers but to provoke thought among our Smokenspokes brethren and others that have been intimitely involved with Sunrise and the DH/FR scene. While I have expressed my sincere appreciation for SS hard work and dedication, I am really perplexed that they(and the DH scene) would turn their backs on efforts directed at improving SR. It seems to me that Candy Mountain and Globe, are hardly sustainable and in the long term have very little promise in the way of a real DH mountain. It's almost like expecting that the city of Phx will put in a lift at SOMO. Once again, I am not saying that Globe, Candy, SOMO are not fun, but they hardly seem like they can "become" something more than they are.

    Sunrise on the other hand, already has a devoted following, trails, lifts, personnel and while clearly not the most dedicated personnel, that is changeable. When they realize that they have a gem on their hands and that the DH segment is growing very quickly and one day, huge droves of people will come to shred.

    When Smokenspokes walked away as builders and the liasons to the DH scene, that leaves a huge hole in terms of who or what organization will step in to hopefully facilitate the growth of the sport and the mountain's summer "program". I spoke with Stevo in Pinetop last weekend and he himself said that he, along with james and Joey are in fact the liasons and that stuff can't get done without their leadership. So in essence, Sunrises' future is "adrift" in uncertainty and no one to help push the scene along becuase we have turned our(dh/fr) attention on these other venues to ride.

    I feel like the decision to pursue other ventures was a hasty one based on pride and a sense that positive things weren't happening fast enough. My hope is that Sunrise does not shut us out yet again next year for lack of support. When it comes right down to it, Sunrise is the only lift accessed MTBing and I will support them before, Globe, Candy or any other mountain(my local Mt. Lemmon included). I am hoping that others share my sentiment. To SS and SBJ, I am eternally in your debt for your efforts thus far, so please do not take this the wrong way. Backlash in 3....2....1.
    Suvlako,
    I'm kind of confused about your intentions too. I think your statement of "I'm not doing this to ruffle any feathers" is insincere. See:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=548378

    You also go on to state the following:
    1. You're perplexed that they(and the DH scene) would turn their backs on efforts directed at improving SR.
    2. Candy Mtn and Globe are not worth riding in the long run, and not real DH.
    3. Steveo and Joey f'd things up because they're too hot-headed and prideful.

    If you're serious about improving things, why not talk to them in private?

  36. #36
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    Do you really believe that my intentions were malicious? I stated that it would ruffle feathers because I knew it would, not because I wanted to. It is clearly a sensitive matter that is subject to their(SSG) experiences and I respect that. What I think is really counter productive is making really understandable points as Joey so calmly did and then at the end F it up by telling people to suck it. Seems to me that people were not willing to hear, acknowlege, or agree with anything that isn't in line with what they believe. I feel like I could have said the sky was blue and I would have been bashed for it. People only tapped into what they feel and not what is real. Sunrise is awesome and if you don't believe that, check out the forums in June and the enthusiasm that was exhibited. I would put Sunrise up against Winterpark( that just hosted Crankworx) any day!!

    While it may be hard to work them, that does not mean it should be put on the back burner. Shoot, Trail work is hard but they will be doing plenty of that tomorrow. My points were pretty clear. 1.Why not continue to support SR?
    2. Thanks to SSG thus far but perhaps, pass the torch if you're done.
    3. Sunrise is STILL awesome and deserves attention and
    development.

    Not sure if I accidentally wrote in Spanish or what, but I kind of take exception to people just slinging verbal poop rather than having a dialogue. This has happened once before with SSG on another thread(can't remember the content of the thread) where I got verbally beat up. Last but not least, I NEVER wrote what you said I did. Read it again. I said it did not show much promise in the way of a dh mountain, i.e. a lift accsesed Dh mountain. In fact I said that they were fun places to ride. I never said they were hot headed or even eluded to that and I sure as s!$t didn't say they f'd it up. I did however say as they were prideful and i think that has been proven here in this forum. To your last point, have efforts to improve the mountain not ceased? Did they not cease weeks ago? Are those efforts not being directed at Globe and Candy? I think I'm done. Sixty you can shut her down... I feel like I just went twelve rounds with a Bush supporter.



    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos
    Suvlako,
    I'm kind of confused about your intentions too. I think your statement of "I'm not doing this to ruffle any feathers" is insincere. See:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=548378

    You also go on to state the following:
    1. You're perplexed that they(and the DH scene) would turn their backs on efforts directed at improving SR.
    2. Candy Mtn and Globe are not worth riding in the long run, and not real DH.
    3. Steveo and Joey f'd things up because they're too hot-headed and prideful.

    If you're serious about improving things, why not talk to them in private?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly
    whiner.
    how did I know that your lame ass would show up here sooner or later?

  38. #38
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    Suvlako, I was not directly telling you to suck it. I know who yuou are and your a pretty cool dude. I am very friendly and not a hot head in the slightest, but I can tell you one thing. We started this because we wanted to do something big for the community. Nothing big will ever come out of Sunrise unless they totally change their crew and management. This is a decision that we have made, if you feel you would like to do things differently there then please FEEL FREE to do so. We want Sunrise to work, and would love for someone else to step it up over there. We dont hold any keys, we are not the sole proprietors of Sunrise. Go do your thing, we will do ours, this is the only way that things will grow in this state. I was simply stating that if someone has a problem with the direction that we are going...suck it, there are always gonna be haters and I can tell you right now that we have too much else to worry about.
    Last edited by SmokenspokesJoe; 08-21-2009 at 06:18 PM.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvlako
    Do you really believe that my intentions were malicious? I stated that it would ruffle feathers because I knew it would, not because I wanted to. It is clearly a sensitive matter that is subject to their(SSG) experiences and I respect that. What I think is really counter productive is making really understandable points as Joey so calmly did and then at the end F it up by telling people to suck it. Seems to me that people were not willing to hear, acknowlege, or agree with anything that isn't in line with what they believe. I feel like I could have said the sky was blue and I would have been bashed for it. People only tapped into what they feel and not what is real. Sunrise is awesome and if you don't believe that, check out the forums in June and the enthusiasm that was exhibited. I would put Sunrise up against Winterpark( that just hosted Crankworx) any day!!

    While it may be hard to work them, that does not mean it should be put on the back burner. Shoot, Trail work is hard but they will be doing plenty of that tomorrow. My points were pretty clear. 1.Why not continue to support SR?
    2. Thanks to SSG thus far but perhaps, pass the torch if you're done.
    3. Sunrise is STILL awesome and deserves attention and
    development.

    Not sure if I accidentally wrote in Spanish or what, but I kind of take exception to people just slinging verbal poop rather than having a dialogue. This has happened once before with SSG on another thread(can't remember the content of the thread) where I got verbally beat up. Last but not least, I NEVER wrote what you said I did. Read it again. I said it did not show much promise in the way of a dh mountain, i.e. a lift accsesed Dh mountain. In fact I said that they were fun places to ride. I never said they were hot headed or even eluded to that and I sure as s!$t didn't say they f'd it up. I did however say as they were prideful and i think that has been proven here in this forum. To your last point, have efforts to improve the mountain not ceased? Did they not cease weeks ago? Are those efforts not being directed at Globe and Candy? I think I'm done. Sixty you can shut her down... I feel like I just went twelve rounds with a Bush supporter.
    Sorry if I read between the lines too much. I agree with you that Sunrise is an awesome place. I would gladly pay more for a lift ticket, or a premium to race. I think this year is almost over. Lets hope they made a profit, or realized we aren't so bad.

    So,
    What ideas do you have? Have you done something like this before? Do you have any connections?

  40. #40
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    SSJ , I am not bashing or diminishing the awesome work that you guys have done. If you guys are of the opinion that your relationship with SR is over would it be inappropiate for someone else to step up to continue the work ? I am aware of your efforts and applaud you for the great things that you have achieved , but I also believe that the work at SR needs to continue .

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    SSJ , I am not bashing or diminishing the awesome work that you guys have done. If you guys are of the opinion that your relationship with SR is over would it be inappropiate for someone else to step up to continue the work ? I am aware of your efforts and applaud you for the great things that you have achieved , but I also believe that the work at SR needs to continue .
    Absolutely. In no way did we want the Sunrise drive to stop, we just did not want to lead it anymore. PLEASE, everyone feel free to jump on that. We love Sunrise and love riding there, we just do not feel it is in our best interest to be so involved with them on the level that we were.

  42. #42
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    Anyway, sorry you got such a backlash on this Suvlako but no hard feelings on my end. You should come out to Globe this weekend if you have the time and come shred with the crew it should be good times. I am done with this thread for now, I got a 24' stakebed shuttle truck infront of my house WAITING to be prepped and loaded...BOOOYA!!! This weekend is gonna be a blast, hope to see you out there dude!

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokenspokesJoe
    Anyway, sorry you got such a backlash on this Suvlako but no hard feelings on my end. You should come out to Globe this weekend if you have the time and come shred with the crew it should be good times. I am done with this thread for now, I got a 24' stakebed shuttle truck infront of my house WAITING to be prepped and loaded...BOOOYA!!! This weekend is gonna be a blast, hope to see you out there dude!
    yer gay...

  44. #44
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    Suvlako I don't think you know much about the way SR runs. Sunrise and the tribe are not easy to work with, or for as many people have stated. They worry about us creating spider trails but when the 3D shoot is going on they could care less about spidering. I have done trail work where half the time we spent covering spider trails (from one shoot) so DH riders weren't tempted to take these trails.

    I wouldn't blame the tribe in full, few of you know that SR is run by a few close friends who are mainly White. So to think that Grant's foul a$$ attitude will change or that you could complain to someone about Grant good luck with that, they will probably have a good laugh while they play disk golf, drinking beer after work. I have found the best thing to do is to make it a game with him.

    I would love to see you show up with twenty people and some equiptment and try to build new trails, you would see many of you standing around even if you knew the right people(we have done it). Every single thing you do there has to be given the okay by sunrise unless you are grooming exhisting trails. (and Arrowhead could use twenty peeps clearing rocks and throwing dirt, so seriously I would love to see your twenty) The only trail they really want now is a fully green trail from top to bottom, they don't want you to cut any tree's to make it nor do they want to spend a dime on building it.(and I believe steve is even in talks with the powers that be about some ideas on this.)

    As for SSG turning their backs on SR I am pretty sure that Steve, SBJ, and others just built a new jump at the bottom of Slippery Rock the weekend before last. (thanks for that by the way) I have talked with Steve and doubt he will ever stop doing trail work at SR unless they choose to not open.

    As a White Mtn Local I have seen year after year the Sketchy practices of SR both in the winter and summer. Every year is a gamble and I don't think this will change until there are some changes in command, so pray for retirement because as long as I can remember its been the same people running the Mtn. And trust me with it being a bit less than an hour from my driveway to the parking lot I would love to see SR open all 3 mtns to DH, Cyclone could have some awesome trails.

    Sorry for the book. And Hope to see all of you up here in the summer and winter. As for me I will do the same as many of you, enjoy the mtn for all its worth and try to support it as often as possible.

  45. #45
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    I started to read this thread last night and wanted to chime in but really wanted to go to the Fish Bowl for some Thursday night pump track.
    So now here is my take on this:

    1. Sunrise is a great mountain with a lot of potential. I first fell in love with the area in '98 when MBAA had their XC series final up there with a downhill race. They still have the photo on their website of me and two friends on our first lift ride up in our gear and we were stoked. Even though the race was only down the fire road and on some limited singletrack, it was a blast. We were racing our XC bikes cause that was all we had. The next year in 1999 MBAA had their three race DH series and asked for volunteers to help get trails ready for said race. A lot of dedicated people showed up and we wanted to have more singletrack to race on, so we built trails and had a good time. The next year some of the same people came out to help build more trails. I believe that was the year that they had the hill torn up with a 10ft deep trench for the snowmaking lines they were installing that year. We built other trails since the trench cut right through some of the trails and there was no way over or around. This was when Chutes and Ladders was built. The following year (2001) brought more trail building with many of the same core people. At this time Managment at Sunrise asked if we could build some easy trails as most of the stuff on the hill was too difficult for beginners. This was the genesis of Fungus. After flagging the trail, and cutting a few trees, we began to ride the trail and bench the worst areas. Work also continued on trails in 2002. In '03 I had planned a race series for the summer and was working with management to make it happen. Two weeks before opening they decided not to open for the season. In '04 managment began to complain about 'spider web trails' and erosion on some of the original race runs. After decommissioning and rehabilitating some sections, we continued to work on getting more trails built. The management wanted easy trails, but we tried to explain that easy trails require alot of manpower and resources. At this point about all the help we were getting was use of their chainsaw and maybe a truck ride up the mountain to the work site. Also in the early years, Sunrise was open until mid Oct, so we had more time to work on the trails. When I finally was able to get weekends off from my work, I would be up every weekend to work the trails. A few years back, management decides that they would not allow new trails to be built unless it is an easy trail. I spent several weekends with a GPS hiking on the eastern slope of the hill to create a trail that could be 'family friendly'. It would have been epic with side lines that could keep even skilled riders on their toes. When I showed them the proposed route, they said it would be too hard to get in if someone got hurt. I offered to get them a cart made for their litter (much like the ones search and rescue use), and to organize a dedicated bike patrol for the mountain. Again no go. The last few years have been busy for me personally and I wasn't able to get to the hill as much as I would have liked. I was glad last year when I found out that Cactus was going to be opening the shop up there and Steve-o and Joey would be able to lead trail work (this was before they were SS). They were hoping to be able to work on the trails more than just for a few hours before the lifts opened. Well, we all know what happend last year. Last minute closed for the season. As pissed off as we all were, some good came out of it as we now have Candy. I was hoping to be able to do much more trailwork this season, but I now have to work Saturdays.

    2. Candy Mountain is a gem. It is nice to have a hill with a good shuttle road and decent camping. The freedom to ride there whenever we please is wonderful. BIG PROPS to Steve-O, Joey and the others who helped turn that little hill into what it is today, with hopefully more to come in the future.

    3. Globe (the Pinals) is good. It's proximity to Phoenix makes it a logical place to ride. I remember pedaling up Six Shooter by myself in 1997. Having these "Sky Islands" in the desert is amazing. It is great to have a 20 degree difference at the top of a mountain. The biggest drawback (for me anyway) is the road to the top. Too rough and too long. Also the lower part is too friggin hot in the summer. Again, thanks to those who have been working with FS to maintain and keep these trails open to bikes.

    4. Smoken Spokes....Thanks guys for stepping up. You have done alot for the gravity scene here in AZ. Dedicating what little free time you have to advance the cause is commendable. We likely would not have had any racing at Sunrise in the last few years if you guys didn't work so hard for it. I am looking forward to your future events, and will help out in whatever capacity I am able.

    5. Suvlako if you want to make stuff happen at Sunrise....DO IT! That mountain has grown only becuse of volunteers. Nobody has "keys". Management dictates what we can and cannot do. I would be more than happy to introduce you to Bill London and Denny Walton, they are generally in charge of what goes on in terms of trail building. If you want to try to go higher up than them, I'm not sure who you would go to, but you are welcome to try. Maybe you could find the right people in the tribe and apply for govt. grants for trailbuilding. I think unless you can come up with either a lot of money or manpower, things will remain pretty much the same as they have been on the mountain.

    That's it for now, I am tired and I have to work in the morning.
    I am planning on doing the Globe thing on Sunday, but will be back at Sunrise the following Sundays to work on the trails until they close.

    ShortBus Out.
    Now I DRIVE the short bus!!


    Help increase ShortBus' rep

  46. #46
    suvlako
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    Everyone is saying "do it' but does anyone remember Steve-o's comment from the thread?

    "you have some good points, one er two that may help......but if you really think your gona get the key pasted to you......you, now thats funny.."

    Joey and SBJ, thanks for the heads up and the willingness to help the progress of SR continue. I am just getting back from SR and had a blast with two newbies from the OP. They loved it!! That place has so much promise and with the growth of the sport, I think one day.... one day.

    SBJ, thanks for the contacts. AZMNTNS, I'll be in touch. Off to Whistler!!




    Quote Originally Posted by SmokenspokesSteve-o
    On my first post I almost stated that I wasnt gonna play....no its said..

    you have some good points, one er two that may help......but if you really think your gona get the key pasted to you......you, now thats funny..

    One quick question, do you ride a green bike????...Titus??? I hope this is you.....

    I just might miss globe to hang with you this weekend......

    enough of this time hole...of to SR to service the rental fleet, look at a hill that could be so much more, then leave..

  47. #47
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvlako

    Joey and SBJ, thanks for the heads up and the willingness to help the progress of SR continue. I am just getting back from SR and had a blast with two newbies from the OP. They loved it!! That place has so much promise and with the growth of the sport, I think one day.... one day.
    I was expecting you to show up with an army of shovels and heavy equipment.

    I was greatly disappointed.

    As for trail work for the week, a log was removed from Fungus.

  48. #48
    Calmer than you are.
    Reputation: The Royal We's Avatar
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    QUOTE: "Tribe doesn't care; they are accustomed to chillin on the Govt's dime in the middle of the street with wild dogs and elk all over the place."

    The underlying sentiment towards the indigenous peoples is, or as you put it "The Tribe", offensive. I wouldn't welcome you to my home either.
    Last edited by The Royal We; 08-23-2009 at 05:32 PM.

  49. #49
    suvlako
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    This is the lack of intelligence and professionalism that makes us look like complete a holes and drives "the tribe" as you put it, to not want to work with us. You degenerates think they don't/can't read this stuff? Even if you believe this garbage, keep it to your self. F!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Royal We
    "Tribe doesn't care; they are accustomed to chillin on the Govt's dime in the middle of the street with wild dogs and elk all over the place."

    The underlying sentiment towards the indigenous peoples is, or as you put it "The Tribe", offensive. I wouldn't welcome you to my home either.

  50. #50
    mtbr member
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvlako
    This is the lack of intelligence and professionalism that makes us look like complete a holes and drives "the tribe" as you put it, to not want to work with us. You degenerates think they don't/can't read this stuff? Even if you believe this garbage, keep it to your self. F!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    WORD.........

  51. #51
    AKA shitbird
    Reputation: eabos's Avatar
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    Cripple Fight!!!

    timmy_CrippleFight_400.jpg
    JRA

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