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  1. #1
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    Idea! Spread the word: Respect PHX trails

    I was riding National today with a friend and noticed that the huge rock carin at the Mormon/National junction has been taken apart and the little jump there went away with it. Both the carin and the jump have always bugged me because they are right at the beginning of the trail and set the tone that moving rocks and riding bikes off trail are reasonable discourse for trail users.

    When I got home the following email exchange was in my inbox (edited for length). I’m posting it to remind people that there are people out there who really care about our parks and want to keep them fun, open to all current users, and preserved for many, many years.

    Please don’t make this an us/them battle. If you come across an off trail line that has been closed with rocks and branches in the future please don’t ride it. The line in question is not worth the bad PR it gives mountain bikers. Spread the word.

    Summer is almost over!

    --------------------------------------------------
    Bike friends,

    Let me preface this with the fact that I understand that everyone has a slightly different perspective on virtually everything. The fact that we all think and approach things differently is what makes the world go round and keeps life interesting.

    The trails that we all love to ride have changed significantly over the years. All of the Phoenix parks see heavy use - many more trail miles than could have been envisioned when these trails were built decades ago. The city continues to have budget challenges, so combined with increased use, and less money/time to maintain - the trails will evolve in ways that are less than ideal. In part due to this, and in other part because I feel incredibly fortunate to have access to world class single track from my house, I became a City of Phoenix Park Steward several years ago. This experience has been enlightening and has not always yielded the results that I had hoped. However, it has forced me to look at things a bit differently than I used to. I regularly stop on a ride to pick up garbage, close a cut switch back, or close off a spur trail. If the trail has been blown out from the Monsoon rains, I will often stop and put a few rocks in until someone can come back and make the repair proper. In general, I enjoy helping impart some small element of effort to insure that the trails that I have come to love will be here to ride and enjoy in another 20-50 years.

    Being that I moved to the "West side" - I ride the "crappy trails" over on that side of the park. They are certainly different than what most everyone else rides - but I am happy nonetheless. Last year, having not been on National proper for a while, I was amazed to see all of the "Side trail" additions of jumps, rock launches, etc. There were several spots on National that the trail had been widened to the point where there are now at least 3 separate lines (Original, huck moves to one side, and the "easier" climbing line to the other.)

    I most certainly understand "alternative rock lines." My concept of this phrase is simply this - exit trail on a rock, stay basically adjacent to said proper trail, re-enter trail on rock. No tires on dirt off trail. There are situations and places that this type of line choice makes perfect sense - and I support the creativity and skill that goes into riding this choice.

    Unfortunately, what I have seen a lot of are, very specific, intentionally created "New lines." These choices often include a jump or other feature. Remember - I have a DH bike and love to ride this type of stuff. However, as part of a sustainable network of multi-user trails - these "alternatives" are positioned to create challenges for both our user group and the trails themselves.

    So - with all that having been said - I am not trying to recruit anyone to be a park steward. It is not for everyone - and, as is the case whenever government and bureaucracy is involved - is not perfect. What I am asking is this - Please be kind to the trails in our Mountain Preserves.

    Please do not use alternate lines that clearly leave evidence of this new feature. Stay on the trails and respect and appreciate the trail for what it is.

    Thanks for listening

    ------------------------------------------------------

    Hi South stewards!

    A HUGE thank you to our volunteer stewards for helping with this project. You helped us naturalize that large rock pile cairn at the beginning of national/mormon loop junction!!!
    It took us but many bucket loads, wheel barrow loads, hand loads and raking in a few hours - but it is done. Attached are a couple of photos - before and after.

    The closure of the jump and off trail section lasted less than 1 day - a sad sidenote for us. As a ranger, I try not to take these personal but I can't help but care and get a bit angry at how people can just move large boulders, take out plants and move rocks just to have a jump or spur trail for their enjoyment.

    We have also tried to naturalize and hide the off trail jumps and side trails up just west of the upper junction of national/mormon loop. Those have been removed as well by some of the bike community. We have talked to some mountain bikers, and they also think that it is "just some hikers" doing so. Not so - it is sanctioned work conducted by both rangers and park stewards.

    Please help us get the word out - there are only so many signs we can post. We are working to create some new signage to post up for mountain bikers at the "jump areas" to help educate when we are unable to be present right there.
    .
    Reasons for closure of jumps:
    Off trail - only designated trails are to be used because
    a. erosion problems
    b. soil degradation
    c. loss of habitat
    d. eventual loss of good, ride-able and sustainable trails. once the top soil is gone, the area will have loss of soil, rocks and may soon turn into a sandy dry area where riding conditions could be considered not enjoyable or challenging

    Safety - the down hill person going off trail could cause a collision on a blind turn

    Eventual prohibiting of mountain bikes on some trails

    We want to Leave No Trace (LNT). This means just leaving footprints (tire tracks) and not taking rocks, moving rocks (only sanctioned by rangers), taking flowers, etc. This also means respecting other users - trail etiquette should be used while on the trail. Yield to uphill and everyone yields to horses. If someone is going to listen to music, have one ear bud out, so you can hear someone coming behind you and they state "on your left" or ring a bell. Just being nice on the trail goes a long way


    What can you do?
    You can be out on a problem area, and be stationed for a bit at that problem spot and help explain. For the most part, people don't realize this is not a playground, it is a preserve and very fragile. If they stick to what we have, then we can better maintain those designated trails, rather than using our efforts to close the side spur trails. Don't get angry at the ignorance, just be calm and explain some of the points that I stated in the email. If you have questions, call or email me, we are very open to get all the proper information out to the public be it that they are hiking, biking, horse riding, picnicing, etc.

    You can also take photos of problems or issues you see, or any descriptions of park users that do not understand the preserve policy. It would be helpful to know who to look for when we want to educate and get everyone on the same page.

    You can join the Mountain Bike Patrol!! - Mountain Bike Patrol as a Park Steward and/or with the Central Arizona Mountain Bike Patrol (CAMBP). Info @ Contact Us

    Please let me know if you want to help and I can make sure to have you stationed at a good spot, even just for 10 or 15 minutes. Or if you want to start posting for us on the MTBR website, or go talk to bike shops, that would be super helpful too. Let me know asap!! Cool - together we can make our mountain safe and preserve what we have here for years to come.
    Last edited by chongoman; 08-29-2011 at 05:24 AM.

  2. #2
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    Oh, and BTW. I am no angel and have ridden some of the moves in question. I'm not going to do it anymore. There plenty of challenges on trail and in other areas.

  3. #3
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    I saw this email last night and have since emailed it to the riders in my group. We are all guilty to some degree, but I do understand the need for this email. A few years back, there was a spider trail just below the Waterfall to the right. It was a bit more challenging coming up and faster going down. I met a Ranger when climbing up one day and he told me it was closed and that was it for me on that section. I never rode it again, but I have ridden other off trail sections. Recently, the trails on the right of the waterfall have opened again and I get frustrated when people ride them and I call them out, while at the same time I am riding my usual shortcuts....a bit hypocritical eh?

    This email was an eye opener. I'm not entitled to anything. The Ranger makes a great point, SOMO is a PRESERVE, not a playground. I have already made my commitment to do the right thing, and I will do my best to encourage others as well.

    I do agree with the original email the lines on rock are ok as long as you can get on and get off without any disruption to the landscape.

    It scares me a bit that the Rangers are approaching bikers with this information. That tells me that we are closer to losing our privileges than we think. It's time for a change.
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  4. #4
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    Chongoman,
    Can you post the before and after pictures from the email? I've only ridden SOMO a few times, and a am not familiar with what your talking about.

    Thanks

  5. #5
    Fragile - must be Italian
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    I saw this email last night and have since emailed it to the riders in my group. We are all guilty to some degree, but I do understand the need for this email. A few years back, there was a spider trail just below the Waterfall to the right. It was a bit more challenging coming up and faster going down. I met a Ranger when climbing up one day and he told me it was closed and that was it for me on that section. I never rode it again, but I have ridden other off trail sections. Recently, the trails on the right of the waterfall have opened again and I get frustrated when people ride them and I call them out, while at the same time I am riding my usual shortcuts....a bit hypocritical eh?

    This email was an eye opener. I'm not entitled to anything. The Ranger makes a great point, SOMO is a PRESERVE, not a playground. I have already made my commitment to do the right thing, and I will do my best to encourage others as well.

    I do agree with the original email the lines on rock are ok as long as you can get on and get off without any disruption to the landscape.

    It scares me a bit that the Rangers are approaching bikers with this information. That tells me that we are closer to losing our privileges than we think. It's time for a change.
    Awesome first response to Bob's post. I share the same guilt that you do...and also see the need to change my attitude about our use of our *preserve* (not *playground*) trails. And yes...if the Park Rangers are approaching bikers directly, that tell me things are more dire than they may seem.

    Time for all of us to look in the mirror and reflect on the proper use of the trails that we are lucky to have in our backyard.


    Thx...Doug

  6. #6
    My other ride is your mom
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    This pretty much goes for anywhere down here in the valley....the widening of trails starts by actions like those described until you pretty much get an entire lane of rock choked debris and an ugly scar on what used to be a tight piece of trail. I hate that news like this always come on Monday mornings....but hope that this thread can stay positive through proactive thoughts. Impossible; I know, but woo to the person that throws a monkey wrench in this one because they'll simply be cutting off their nose to spite their face.




  7. #7
    Kathleen in AZ
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    Good reminder to keep the wheels on our fabulous legal trails.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajmelin View Post
    Chongoman,
    Can you post the before and after pictures from the email? I've only ridden SOMO a few times, and a am not familiar with what your talking about.

    Thanks
    I got the email as a forward so I did not see the attachments.

    If you've ever been out there you've seen the cairn and probably seen rock drop there too. It's at the end of the Pima fire road just after the wash and at the Mormon/National junction.
    The rocks are spread back around covering the area that was left bare by the rock stacking. This also put some definition back into the trail. Looks good.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    If you've ever been out there you've seen the cairn and probably seen rock drop there too. It's at the end of the Pima fire road just after the wash and at the Mormon/National junction.
    The rocks are spread back around covering the area that was left bare by the rock stacking. This also put some definition back into the trail. Looks good.
    I've seen the "cairn" if you could actually call that huge pile a cairn and knew it was coming down. I do a little steward work as well and got the email request for help and would've been out with them if I wasn't on Mingus Mountain. Looking forward to seeing the new look

  10. #10
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    It came as no surprise that the "jump" was closed and I'm glad. I got the email to help remove the pile of rocks and close that section but I couldn't make the date.

    In regards to the jump...Seriously guys, it's at a major trail crossing in an area that is the at the beginning of one of the most popular trails when coming from the most popular multi-use trailhead in the whole valley. Many people probably never notice many of the other off-trail lines on Somo but pretty much everyone passes by this area when hiking or whatever. It makes the MTB community look completely careless.

    Don't get me wrong, I have ridden many off trail lines but this thing was a no-brainer. Besides the poor location/trail etiquette it wasn't even a fun jump/drop (yes I rode it once).
    JRA

  11. #11
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    If thats the ski jump right at the bottom of national, I am happy they closed it too. I nearly ate **** on my SS and swore as I flew through the air that I was gonna blow out a wheel or two!

    I have a question. I know that the rangers and parks have little money and resources at this time, but when I am in any park, I see where branches/rocks/cacti are laid across a trail spur or even "established" trail that has been ridden for quite some time. I always wonder, "Who did that?" Was it an official move or rock fairies? Should I heed it? When I come by next time, and it is opened (by whoever) does that mean I can ride it?

    I am sure I am not the only one. I am also sure that between all the riders on this forum and with our diverse opinion, we can some up with a cheap (free?) way to make official closures, repairs and maintenance obiviously marked so that we know what to do.

    Thanks for posting this letter!
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  12. #12
    Shred...it's the new drug
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    I saw a ranger finishing it up this morning. I grabbed a quick shot. I thought that big pile of rocks was ugly and unnatural...but this looks pretty unnatural too. All the other good stuff up top was still there. Had a long hot sweaty ride and I love living behind somo...no matter how many spurs or jumps they block off.
    somo trail fix

  13. #13
    Break it, Fix it, Ride it
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    So how long until they can get to this monstrosity? It's the largest mountain nipple I've ever seen. There's not even a trail junction there.



    Good job raising awareness. Needs to be done every now and then. While the preserve isn't a playground, it sure can look like one with all the rock features and a little imagination. We must resist the dark side! (no matter how much fun....)
    Today's the day I eat bikes.

  14. #14
    dirt visionary
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    I have never been much for any of the off trail features on SOMO especialy natty. But I am guilty of riding non system trails on the mt.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  15. #15
    How much further ???
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    While I understand the intention of this thread Im a little unclear how to handle certain locations. While it sounds like features like the merry-go-round should be/is off limits now what about places like the waterfall and the triangle? There are so many routes through there which is the officially accepted route?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    While I understand the intention of this thread Im a little unclear how to handle certain locations. While it sounds like features like the merry-go-round should be/is off limits now what about places like the waterfall and the triangle? There are so many routes through there which is the officially accepted route?
    I think this quote from the above email sets a good guide...

    "I most certainly understand "alternative rock lines." My concept of this phrase is simply this - exit trail on a rock, stay basically adjacent to said proper trail, re-enter trail on rock. No tires on dirt off trail. There are situations and places that this type of line choice makes perfect sense - and I support the creativity and skill that goes into riding this choice."

    If you're rolling on trail or rock, like the water fall or triangle, it leaves no trace.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    While I understand the intention of this thread Im a little unclear how to handle certain locations. While it sounds like features like the merry-go-round should be/is off limits now what about places like the waterfall and the triangle? There are so many routes through there which is the officially accepted route?
    I'm with you... Some of the "features" on Natty are actually less damaging than riding the dirt would be because you are climbing over rocks and not on soil.

    Take the waterfall, for example. The "best" line according to "them" would seem to be the far left line skipping down all the (sometimes loose) rocks because you aren't touching dirt while what is probably the "sanctioned" line, the chute on the right, has seemed to keep getting deeper over time (according to personal stories I've heard as well as video of past and present I've seen).

    Then realize the fact that most trails on SoMo were made so long ago and with next to no sustainability and then combine that with the fact that there are so many off-trail features that are just begging to be ridden (many of which don't cause erosion, many of which do) that you have a mess of trails and spider trails and no one knows what the sanctioned route is.

    I sat in with the stewards for a meeting/clinic with VOAZ on trail maintenance and what I walked away with was there are two kinds of trails: Sustainable and Challenging. You can't have both because everything that makes a trail challenging causes it to be less sustainable. I've been meaning to post a thread about this but haven't had time so I'll just piggy back here...

    As we were hiking Ranger and the west end of National our VOAZ rep kept commenting on baby heads and how "no one wants to hike or ride over these" calling them "ankle busters" and "wheel busters." By the end of the hike he had several people sanitizing the trail by brushing anything that looked like it could twist an ankle off the path.

    I don't know what the solution is for those of us who want to make little impact on the preserve but are also always looking for a challenge...

    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    exit trail on a rock, stay basically adjacent to said proper trail, re-enter trail on rock. No tires on dirt off trail. If you're rolling on trail or rock, like the water fall or triangle, it leaves no trace.
    There's dirt in and around most rock features. You ARE going to disturb soil riding most, if not all, alternate lines on most trails. I'm not trying to be a thorn in the side. That's just the way I see it although I'm never cataloging the exact amount of terrain I'm riding over. When I'm out over the weekend I'll try to pay a little close attention. Maybe I'll even take some photos...

    I would imagine a lot of the lines would be acceptable given the little amount of erosion riding them causes. But BUILDING a jump and huge-ass pile of rocks in the middle of the trail is a pretty stupid thing to do by any account.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    I'm with you... Some of the "features" on Natty are actually less damaging than riding the dirt would be because you are climbing over rocks and not on soil.

    Take the waterfall, for example. The "best" line according to "them" would seem to be the far left line skipping down all the (sometimes loose) rocks because you aren't touching dirt while what is probably the "sanctioned" line, the chute on the right, has seemed to keep getting deeper over time (according to personal stories I've heard as well as video of past and present I've seen).

    I consider the waterfall area to be all rock. from the chute to spine to the left roller. I also don't think the waterfall is seen as a biker problem area

    Then realize the fact that most trails on SoMo were made so long ago and with next to no sustainability and then combine that with the fact that there are so many off-trail features that are just begging to be ridden (many of which don't cause erosion, many of which do) that you have a mess of trails and spider trails and no one knows what the sanctioned route is.

    I sat in with the stewards for a meeting/clinic with VOAZ on trail maintenance and what I walked away with was there are two kinds of trails: Sustainable and Challenging. You can't have both because everything that makes a trail challenging causes it to be less sustainable. I've been meaning to post a thread about this but haven't had time so I'll just piggy back here...

    As we were hiking Ranger and the west end of National our VOAZ rep kept commenting on baby heads and how "no one wants to hike or ride over these" calling them "ankle busters" and "wheel busters." By the end of the hike he had several people sanitizing the trail by brushing anything that looked like it could twist an ankle off the path.

    I don't know what the solution is for those of us who want to make little impact on the preserve but are also always looking for a challenge...

    It seems to me that there are many, many challenges out there that are kosher and make little impact without riding spider lines.

    There's dirt in and around most rock features. You ARE going to disturb soil riding most, if not all, alternate lines on most trails. I'm not trying to be a thorn in the side. That's just the way I see it although I'm never cataloging the exact amount of terrain I'm riding over. When I'm out over the weekend I'll try to pay a little close attention. Maybe I'll even take some photos...

    I would imagine a lot of the lines would be acceptable given the little amount of erosion riding them causes. But BUILDING a jump and huge-ass pile of rocks in the middle of the trail is a pretty stupid thing to do by any account.
    I really think this mostly boils down to a couple of areas on National between the waterfall and the bottom of the trail. I think if anyone pauses for a brief moment it is clear what is on trail and what is off trail and what is made of rock and what is soil/dirt. It seems that thinking and pausing before acting is what is being asked of us. If you are rolling on rock and not making tire tracks on or off trail I do not think we are going to cause any damage.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    I don't know what the solution is for those of us who want to make little impact on the preserve but are also always looking for a challenge...
    There are 2 ways to find a new challenge;
    1. find tougher obstacles
    2. attempt the same obstacles with less bike

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Bart View Post
    There are 2 ways to find a new challenge;
    1. find tougher obstacles
    2. attempt the same obstacles with less bike
    or with more bike at a faster rate

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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    It seems that thinking and pausing before acting is what is being asked of us. If you are rolling on rock and not making tire tracks on or off trail I do not think we are going to cause any damage.
    Agreed but I know it would only be a matter of time when "erosion" isn't the issue. Being off-trail is. I'm going to attempt to make a conscience effort to note what "alternate lines" are issues in regards to soil vs rock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Bart View Post
    There are 2 ways to find a new challenge;
    1. find tougher obstacles
    2. attempt the same obstacles with less bike
    Well, finding tougher obstacles is EXACTLY what we are doing while venturing "off-trail."

    Quote Originally Posted by latedropbob View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Bart View Post
    There are 2 ways to find a new challenge;
    1. find tougher obstacles
    2. attempt the same obstacles with less bike
    or with more bike at a faster rate
    I like the way you think!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Well, finding tougher obstacles is EXACTLY what we are doing while venturing "off-trail."
    Understood. But we both agree that doing so is not a viable long term option within SoMo.

    You said,
    I don't know what the solution is for those of us who want to make little impact on the preserve but are also always looking for a challenge...

    One solution is to ride the existing permitted trails on a bike with less/no travel. Makes old trails seem somewhat new again. Obstacles that are ho-hum on a long travel FS become a challenge again. Worked for me.

  23. #23
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    Just came down from Helipad, half way up where the step up is followed by the tight left switchback, there is new trail coming straight down bypassing both features. FYI.

  24. #24
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    I get the feeling that people simply don't know of good, close alternatives that are very close to the areas in question. IMO the below options are more challenging, have better flow, less traffic, and are completly on trail.

    1. Instead of stopping at the saddle before Buena Vista (BV) ride to the lot (super fun going doing down) and climb back up. The climb back up is one of the coolest, toughest technical climb sequences on National.

    2. Start at Javalina, climb Natty and descent 24th street. This is an awesome technical climb and ultra awesome techy descent. It's only 1 mile or so on the canal back to the Javi. This ride has everything you could want and more compared to a Natty outand back minus the fire road.

    3. ride or park at BV and ride National between BV and Telegraph pass or further (great stuff there. way better than lowen Natty IMO). The section right after the National/Holber junction has excellent chunky challenges. The section where you're riding above summit road is a scream.

    4. Climb Kiwanis trail and ride the trails at the Central entrance. Good stuff.

    5. Holbert

    There are SO many better ways have goot techy fun at SoMo without the spider lines on Lower National.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    The section right after the National/Holber junction has excellent chunky challenges. The section where you're riding above summit road is a scream.
    Lost a demo Enduro over the edge there about a year and a half ago. Oops.

  26. #26
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    One thing that I've noticed in the last few years is that the land managers are finally hearing MTB users. This is good and bad all at once. We've drawn enough attention, and they want to help make us happy but they've also noticed new trails, new lines, etc. Now is the time to play the game by their rules because they're watching, and hopefully we'll eventually reap the benefits. Stop building new social trails, stop building new lines, and help keep the place clean- give them a reason to want to make things more user friendly for everybody involved.

    And please, don't just respect the PHX trails, respect them all. Even if you're not in your back yard on your favorite trail, it's more than likely somebody else's.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Bart View Post
    Understood. But we both agree that doing so is not a viable long term option within SoMo.
    Agreed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Bart View Post
    One solution is to ride the existing permitted trails on a bike with less/no travel. Makes old trails seem somewhat new again. Obstacles that are ho-hum on a long travel FS become a challenge again. Worked for me.
    Well, I just spent more money than I should have on my "new" bike and have absolutely no interest in buying another, ESPECIALLY something of inferior capability like a rigid or less suspended bike. I know some people like 'em but they hold no interest whatsoever for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    1. Instead of stopping at the saddle before Buena Vista (BV) ride to the lot (super fun going doing down) and climb back up. The climb back up is one of the coolest, toughest technical climb sequences on National.
    I've walked that section with the Wed morning shuttle crew. I might have climbed it but everyone on their DH rigs was walking so I didn't have much choice. I agree it is probably a very challenging climb and pretty fun descent as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    2. Start at Javalina, climb Natty and descent 24th street. This is an awesome technical climb and ultra awesome techy descent. It's only 1 mile or so on the canal back to the Javi. This ride has everything you could want and more compared to a Natty outand back minus the fire road.
    I've climbed Javelina & Natty and descended Natty from BV to 24th with the Wed shuttle crew and I agree 24th is an incredible trail. It's a very technical descent and Natty is always full o' fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    3. ride or park at BV and ride National between BV and Telegraph pass or further (great stuff there. way better than lowen Natty IMO). The section right after the National/Holber junction has excellent chunky challenges. The section where you're riding above summit road is a scream.

    4. Climb Kiwanis trail and ride the trails at the Central entrance. Good stuff.
    Never been up this direction...

    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    5. Holbert
    Another good, challenging trail.

    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    There are SO many better ways have goot techy fun at SoMo without the spider lines on Lower National.
    I know you're right but I also think we need to make a distinction between people who like to ride challenging trails like those mentioned above and those who just like to climb stuff. A perfect example would be the Triangle and Merry Go Round. Neither of those features are necessary to travel on but both have countless hours of riding time on them. It's nice to be able to hang out at a spot and work on a very small portion of "trail." Both of those spots fit the bill because stopping at both doesn't ruin the flow of your descent.

    By comparison if one wanted to "session" spots of Holbert or 24th you would find it difficult to find spots that are as hospitable as the Triangle, Merry Go Round, or Waterfall. All of those have ample area to hang out and watch people ride & wreck and just take a break. Holbert, 24th, et. al. are more flowing trails without similar opportunities (to the best of my recollection). They are more suited for shuttling which is similar but not the same as "sessioning" certain places.

    I'm not trying to make excuses. Just reminding everyone about the mindset of some... myself somewhat included.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    By comparison if one wanted to "session" spots of Holbert or 24th you would find it difficult to find spots that are as hospitable as the Triangle, Merry Go Round, or Waterfall. All of those have ample area to hang out and watch people ride & wreck and just take a break. Holbert, 24th, et. al. are more flowing trails without similar opportunities (to the best of my recollection). They are more suited for shuttling which is similar but not the same as "sessioning" certain places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    today's Being Michelle Bachman winner!!!
    Huh? Not sure what I said, especially in the quoted paragraph, that is akin to me putting a dick in my mouth. Oh, well. So much for an open dialog...

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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    today's Being Michelle Bachman winner!!!
    Corn dogs. A highly underrated food.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Huh? Not sure what I said, especially in the quoted paragraph, that is akin to me putting a dick in my mouth. Oh, well. So much for an open dialog...
    Ahh, don't mind him...

    I didn't really follow what you were saying either though. I like to session, hang out, and chill with friends while on rides too. I frequently take water fall breaks and screw around at the triangle too. Since those areas are rock and don't require spider trails to get to them I don't think they are really seen as problem areas. Also, the other areas I mentioned have plenty of hospitable space to shoot the sh*t too.

    If I understand the "merry go round" spot the same as you do I'd have to say that is definitely one of the problem spots that are irking the rangers. It requires spider trails to get to it and is continually closed and reopened thus making it MTBer v. ranger battle. That will not bode well for us. I'd really hate to see it come to the point where they have to put permanent signs or even close Lower National to bikes (the ranger's email indicated trail closure) because bikers can't stop riding in these problem areas. I also know there are other users out there doing similar bad stuff, but MTBers are an easy target and are currently in the spotlight.

    I have not only sessioned the waterfall, but have loved it real good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Huh? Not sure what I said, especially in the quoted paragraph, that is akin to me putting a dick in my mouth. Oh, well. So much for an open dialog...
    don't foucs on the penis, per se. embrace your scattalogical and completely devoid-of-reality side. No one ever sessions Holbert, and carbon dioxide is not harmful..
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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    If I understand the "merry go round" spot the same as you do I'd have to say that is definitely one of the problem spots that are irking the rangers. It requires spider trails to get to it and is continually closed and reopened thus making it MTBer v. ranger battle. That will not bode well for us.
    Actually, I'm not certain I know where the Merry Go Round is now. I was thinking it was a couple big rocks you can climb where your "line" starts as you go around a tree to setup straight with the rocks.

    from Michael Stevens on Vimeo.


    I'll admit that's probably not a kosher line. In writing some of these posts I've actually thought about it and how to hit that line without winding around the tree to save on the erosion factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    I have not only sessioned the waterfall, but have loved it real good.

    That may explain why I see people slipping off the spine. It has speshul lube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Actually, I'm not certain I know where the Merry Go Round is now. I was thinking it was a couple big rocks you can climb where your "line" starts as you go around a tree to setup straight with the rocks.

    I'll admit that's probably not a kosher line. In writing some of these posts I've actually thought about it and how to hit that line without winding around the tree to save on the erosion factor.
    That line is definitely one of the problem areas.The run out after it is a mess and it has been closed rangers numerous times over the last 5 years. I'm pretty sure that is one of the examples that the ranger is thinking of in her email above.

    IMO that would be a very good line to stop riding. People will do what they'll do, but I'll never ride that line because I know it causes damage and pisses off people who have influence.

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    Respecting the trails includes not sanitizing trails by making an obstacle easier, or completely removing it. If you can't ride it, walk it. This sport is about progression and finding tougher obstacles is part of that. I agree that some of the new lines appearing are poorly built and not sustainable however, many new lines are completely sustainable and in some cases a better choice than the original line. I'm all for having sections that have two or three choices for sessioning, provided they are well built like the 'triangle' on National. Why not include some man-made features in the equation? A ladder or bridge over a problem area or a teeter-totter just off trail, with a rock entrance and exit would be a welcome change. Maybe those in charge will look into making our trails more challenging while keeping them sustainable. Maybe a bike only trail? Maybe a one-way (down) bike-only trail? Maybe enforcing the whole off-trail thing with the hikers that wander around the east side of the park?

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    The concept of "Leave no trace" appears to be challenging.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg View Post
    The concept of "Leave no trace" appears to be challenging.
    So I'll mark you down as a "NO" on the proposed preserve chairlift system?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    That line is definitely one of the problem areas.The run out after it is a mess and it has been closed rangers numerous times over the last 5 years. I'm pretty sure that is one of the examples that the ranger is thinking of in her email above.

    IMO that would be a very good line to stop riding. People will do what they'll do, but I'll never ride that line because I know it causes damage and pisses off people who have influence.
    That line has been there for 15 years, that I know of. The dirt is pretty much flat ground, and less than two bike lengths back on the trail. The original version came straight off the trail and over. Someone moved the cheater rock that kicked you up on top of it years ago. Dig out the run-out, armor it with some big flat rocks, move the kicker back into place, voila... three different lines. Some dirt may be displaced in the process, but not as much as my neighbor does when he mows his dirt backyard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg View Post
    The concept of "Leave no trace" appears to be challenging.
    Any trail on the mountain will leave far less of a trace than that big ugly golf course at the base of Holbert. Talk about out of place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumpy29er View Post
    Just came down from Helipad, half way up where the step up is followed by the tight left switchback, there is new trail coming straight down bypassing both features. FYI.
    There are a couple of 'straight shot' lines on helipad now which are clearly intended to be ridden downhill. I first noticed some of those modifications in the late spring if I remember correctly.

    I don't really get the motivation there, are people shuttling up the little dirt road from the south side to the helipad and then bombing down? I can't see slogging through the DC/Warpaint area or coming from the south trails then riding up to helipad for the short mostly non-tech decent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    That line is definitely one of the problem areas.The run out after it is a mess and it has been closed rangers numerous times over the last 5 years. I'm pretty sure that is one of the examples that the ranger is thinking of in her email above.
    I've only been riding SoMo for 3 or 4 months and it's always been ridden so I unfortunately have little knowledge of which trails have been close numerous times Now, I am big enough to admit to riding it thinking it's probably not a sanctioned line.

    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker View Post
    That line has been there for 15 years, that I know of. The original version came straight off the trail and over. Someone moved the cheater rock that kicked you up on top of it years ago. Dig out the run-out, armor it with some big flat rocks, move the kicker back into place, voila... three different lines. Some dirt may be displaced in the process, but not as much as my neighbor does when he mows his dirt backyard.
    I was thinking the EXACT same thing

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    An update to this thread...

    Yesterday, Labor Day, a buddy and I headed up National. We took the time to block a few spider trails. One which has been created very recently, it was a short piece, and it was used to straighten out a corner. The other is a spider trail which I have ridden everytime down National. This spider is now spawning other spiders.

    Coincidently, we ran into Ranger Roy who was out doing the same thing we were. As you are climbing up National, just above the "Merry Go Round" in BOMs video, he closed down the widening of the trail. The trail has gone from 24" wide to 48". The original trail is granite, and you can see the soil color change where people have been widening the trail. There is no reason what so ever to widen the trail here. It doesn't add any fun, it just allows people to be lazy. Too bad he used tree branches and rocks, which is hideous to look at, but effective.

    We stopped and spoke to Roy and let him know that we had blocked a few spider trails, where they were located, and how we did it. He was very greatful and thanked us for helping out and recognizing the problem. He went on to reinforce many of the items of concern posted in the original post. He made it very clear that the bikers have a large traget on their back and if we don't police ourselves, we will have the opportunity to find another place to ride.

    Roy went on to tell us that hikers are also an issue of concern, dogs specifically. The dogs of leash and the lack of cleaning up after the dogs is the next issue the park will address. Soooooo....we can get our names of the "to be banned" list pretty quick if we just stay on trail. This is great news if we can change the Ranger focus from bikers to dogs.

    I'm hoping we can arrange a trail work day with the rangers to more permanently block the spider trails.

    EDIT: Roy did say the triangle and waterfall, are not issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    He made it very clear that the bikers have a large traget on their back and if we don't police ourselves, we will have the opportunity to find another place to ride.
    Really? A large target? I bet he's been saying that kind of thing for a long time. He probably tells the dog walkers that one bite law suit could shut down the entire park forever. I like to ask for specific names when bureaucratic underlings start rattling their keys with remarks like that.

    Police ourselves? I'll have a tough time doing that, since I'm not omniscient.

    He probably appreciates the help because it's a pain in his ass constantly blocking these new lines, and also his job.

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    Yeah been that way for way too many years...the target is the same .

    A peek into the past..dejavu
    http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/south...ure-81212.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    An update to this thread...

    Yesterday, Labor Day, a buddy and I headed up National. We took the time to block a few spider trails. One which has been created very recently, it was a short piece, and it was used to straighten out a corner. The other is a spider trail which I have ridden everytime down National. This spider is now spawning other spiders.


    EDIT: Roy did say the triangle and waterfall, are not issues.
    Thanks tiSS'er!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Coincidently, we ran into Ranger Roy who was out doing the same thing we were. As you are climbing up National, just above the "Merry Go Round" in BOMs video, he closed down the widening of the trail. The trail has gone from 24" wide to 48". The original trail is granite, and you can see the soil color change where people have been widening the trail. There is no reason what so ever to widen the trail here. It doesn't add any fun, it just allows people to be lazy.
    There are a lot of areas like this that make no sense as to why they were spidered in the first place. And, in the case of "laziness" I think that's the hikers fault, not ours. Most of the spider trails I've ridden were done so because they are difficult, not 'cause it made it easier to get where you are going. If we wanted easy we wouldn't be on SoMo. But, as the minority (even though we probably aren't) we will bear the brunt of everything regardless of cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    We stopped and spoke to Roy ... He made it very clear that the bikers have a large traget on their back and if we don't police ourselves, we will have the opportunity to find another place to ride.

    .. hikers are also an issue of concern ... dogs off leash and the lack of cleaning up after the dogs ... Soooooo....we can get our names of the "to be banned" list pretty quick if we just stay on trail. This is great news if we can change the Ranger focus from bikers to dogs.
    I'm pretty sure we will never be off the "to be banned" list. The 1% will always be what we are judged by. And off leash dogs & people that don't clean up after their mutt have ALWAYS been a concern. They aren't on the "to be banned" list. Hikers never will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    I'm hoping we can arrange a trail work day with the rangers to more permanently block the spider trails.
    There is no "permanently" blocking trails. Especially, if the trail is already established. They can block them off every couple months and hope for the best. Which is what they are already doing.

    As to the "features" that people like to play on like the Merry Go Round. I would suggest taking the time and manpower they would use to try to shut it down and put it to use making the feature as environmentally friendly as possible. Especially with that one it would be pretty easy modifying six feet of soil at the entrance (probably not even needed since it's right on the trail) and exit of it with rocks and it's done.

    Do that once or try to shut it down once every 6 months for the rest of eternity...

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Really? A large target? I bet he's been saying that kind of thing for a long time. He probably tells the dog walkers that one bite law suit could shut down the entire park forever. I like to ask for specific names when bureaucratic underlings start rattling their keys with remarks like that.
    I think it is probably the classic, over dramatization in attempt to convey a point more forcefully. Unfortunatly it seems this tactic is utitlized quite often these days and for some reason may even be required to get people to take notice. While the reason may be over dramatic and unfounded it does appear to be effective. Case in point 'We need to pass a stimulous or else the whole country will fall apart'. See it works !!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post

    Police ourselves? I'll have a tough time doing that, since I'm not omniscient.
    Are the police omniscient in your world? (and are you the guy that tells them,"I pay yer salary!"?)


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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    Yeah been that way for way too many years...the target is the same .

    A peek into the past..dejavu
    http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/south...ure-81212.html
    Huh, target the same, long winded wankers/b!tches the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Bart View Post
    Are the police omniscient in your world? (and are you the guy that tells them,"I pay yer salary!"?)


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    Let me try that out...

    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I think it is probably the classic, over dramatization in attempt to convey a point more forcefully. Unfortunatly it seems this tactic is utitlized quite often these days and for some reason may even be required to get people to take notice. While the reason may be over dramatic and unfounded it does appear to be effective. Case in point 'We need to pass a stimulous or else the whole country will fall apart'. See it works !!!
    Michelle looks pretty good from a couple angles; were she game, I'd do her but wouldn't tell anyone about it.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    No, I'm the guy they pay to behave himself.
    I thought you were a girl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    No, I'm the guy they pay to behave himself.
    Is that some sort of work release program? Did you find the prison guards to be omniscient during your time in lockup?

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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    Yeah been that way for way too many years...the target is the same .

    A peek into the past..dejavu
    http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/south...ure-81212.html
    Fun stuff....but what was/is this trail called "Sex Offender?" With a name like that, it better be kick *ss......


    I also like the second post "Here we go again." And that was in 2005.....

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    Sex Offender is geronimo(boy scout version)
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    Yeah been that way for way too many years...the target is the same .

    A peek into the past..dejavu
    http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/south...ure-81212.html
    Respectfully, this thread has nothing do do with that old pissing match thread. All I was hoping to do with this thread was to point out some specific spots on Lower National that are giving MTBers bad bad juju with the Rangers. These spots are blatantly off trail and not riding them will help us in the long haul.

    This is not some fake story about John McCain's wife getting buzzed by a DH'er aimed at getting people worked up (I heard that one a while ago). This is simply about the spots that the rangers keep closing and inconsiderate bikers keep opening up. We're really talking about a few small, spider trails and rock rolls. There's no conspiracy here.
    I think a few people have changed their outlook since the ranger's email has been circulated. That is good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    Respectfully, this thread has nothing do do with that old pissing match thread. All I was hoping to do with this thread was to point out some specific spots on Lower National that are giving MTBers bad bad juju with the Rangers. These spots are blatantly off trail and not riding them will help us in the long haul.

    This is not some fake story about John McCain's wife getting buzzed by a DH'er aimed at getting people worked up (I heard that one a while ago). This is simply about the spots that the rangers keep closing and inconsiderate bikers keep opening up. We're really talking about a few small, spider trails and rock rolls. There's no conspiracy here.
    I think a few people have changed their outlook since the ranger's email has been circulated. That is good.
    I propose that pictures of the specific spots that the rangers are having major issues with be posted in a new thread. I know there may be more spots and the quick reply would be "stay off all unofficial trails," but why not start somewhere? Make the high offending spots very clear.

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    Glad to see the issue of spider trails are being addressed at SOMO. Since PMP is also a *preserve* and has a HUGE number of spider trails, what efforts will be put forth there to begin closing down the spider trails?

    Don't let the 'you guys have a target on your back' get you down. I used the same type of lines when I was a park ranger making contact with off leash dog violators or other people breaking the rules.

    We do need to check ourselves as mountain bikers, it only makes sense. Good PR.

    Thanks to those volunteering on the Bike Patrol. Solid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by latedropbob View Post
    I saw a ranger finishing it up this morning. I grabbed a quick shot. I thought that big pile of rocks was ugly and unnatural...but this looks pretty unnatural too. All the other good stuff up top was still there. Had a long hot sweaty ride and I love living behind somo...no matter how many spurs or jumps they block off.
    somo trail fix
    I was bummed to see how quick the work in this photo was undone. Sure it was not perfect, but taking down the cairn and closing a high traffic/visability jump was the right call in my book.
    Here are a couple of shots from today. I moved some of the rocks blocking the entry back on place, but the exit was widly opened too.
    The season for most riders is just getting started. I hope people have the sense to leave this spot and the others like it alone.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spread the word: Respect PHX trails-photo_2.jpg  

    Spread the word: Respect PHX trails-photo_3.jpg  


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    I'd like to say that the ranger(s) have gone way too far in their efforts to block "spider" trails. The signs are f u c k i n g stupid!!! Especially the one that says, "I see you". Give me a break! This has nothing to do with saving wildlife, or the super special crust that takes 1000 years to create. The real "spider" trails are still there! These are the ones that cut the switchbacks and cause real errosion problems. I see them all the way up natty and I don't see any real effort to block these. It seems this is personal and directed at mt bikers. Their efforts would be more usefull removing trash, graffiti, and repairing established trails. Lower natty needs serious work, but the rangers are too busy making stupid signs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    I'd like to say that the ranger(s) have gone way too far in their efforts to block "spider" trails. The signs are f u c k i n g stupid!!! Especially the one that says, "I see you". Give me a break! This has nothing to do with saving wildlife, or the super special crust that takes 1000 years to create. The real "spider" trails are still there! These are the ones that cut the switchbacks and cause real errosion problems. I see them all the way up natty and I don't see any real effort to block these. It seems this is personal and directed at mt bikers. Their efforts would be more usefull removing trash, graffiti, and repairing established trails. Lower natty needs serious work, but the rangers are too busy making stupid signs.
    What I find interesting, or funny really, is that if you do a quick youtube search you will find every single line that the rangers have blocked being ridden since 2006. I can only imagine these lines were ridden before youtube was even created. There is no way these lines will ever regenerate in the lifespan of humans and the blocks that the rangers have done look like total crap and make the trail look like an urban graffiti park. I also don't understand why these lines are being singled out when I see all kind of destruction being done by hikers, etc, that have a much more substantial environmental and visual impact than the few lines mtbr's have ridden forever? They have every right to do it and I will respect their blocks, but I don't agree with what they have done on just a visual level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by climnron View Post
    There is no way these lines will ever regenerate in the lifespan of humans and the blocks that the rangers have done look like total crap and make the trail look like an urban graffiti park.
    It's dirt and rock. It degenerates due to wind and water. It doesn't stay the same or regenerate and in many cases the sections that have been closes for "revegetation" weren't vegetative in the first place.

    In our Steward Trail Building "seminar" put on by VOAZ a few months ago they stated very clearly that NATURAL erosion is the largest impact on the dirt and rock we like to hike and ride. Human impact is pretty minimal.

    Oh, well...

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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    It's dirt and rock. It degenerates due to wind and water. It doesn't stay the same or regenerate and in many cases the sections that have been closes for "revegetation" weren't vegetative in the first place.

    In our Steward Trail Building "seminar" put on by VOAZ a few months ago they stated very clearly that NATURAL erosion is the largest impact on the dirt and rock we like to hike and ride. Human impact is pretty minimal.

    Oh, well...
    oops, typed regenerate rather than re-vegetate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    I'd like to say that the ranger(s) have gone way too far in their efforts to block "spider" trails. The signs are f u c k i n g stupid!!! Especially the one that says, "I see you". Give me a break! This has nothing to do with saving wildlife, or the super special crust that takes 1000 years to create. The real "spider" trails are still there! These are the ones that cut the switchbacks and cause real errosion problems. I see them all the way up natty and I don't see any real effort to block these. It seems this is personal and directed at mt bikers. Their efforts would be more usefull removing trash, graffiti, and repairing established trails. Lower natty needs serious work, but the rangers are too busy making stupid signs.
    The Legend has spoken...

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by climnron View Post
    What I find interesting, or funny really, is that if you do a quick youtube search you will find every single line that the rangers have blocked being ridden since 2006. I can only imagine these lines were ridden before youtube was even created. There is no way these lines will ever regenerate in the lifespan of humans and the blocks that the rangers have done look like total crap and make the trail look like an urban graffiti park. I also don't understand why these lines are being singled out when I see all kind of destruction being done by hikers, etc, that have a much more substantial environmental and visual impact than the few lines mtbr's have ridden forever? They have every right to do it and I will respect their blocks, but I don't agree with what they have done on just a visual level.
    These lines have been there for 15+ years. It's so obvious that someone has it out for mt bikers. They don't care about preserving the trail or wildlife, they just want to enforce rules.
    Bunch of twig pigs!

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    These lines have been there for 15+ years. It's so obvious that someone has it out for mt bikers. They don't care about preserving the trail or wildlife, they just want to enforce rules.
    Bunch of twig pigs!
    Allow me to ask a question. Did the rangers know about every off shoot or secret line on the mountain pre-gopro days? Or has it become more of an issue when everyone thinks they need to post the 30 seconds of video they have of themselves on a forum such as this.

    IMO there is something to be said about going about your business. Without feeling the feed to broadcast every second of it to the world.
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  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Allow me to ask a question. Did the rangers know about every off shoot or secret line on the mountain pre-gopro days? Or has it become more of an issue when everyone thinks they need to post the 30 seconds of video they have of themselves on a forum such as this.

    IMO there is something to be said about going about your business. Without feeling the feed to broadcast every second of it to the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jibro View Post
    Werd
    i bet the Rangers know most of them, but they were less ridden. I've been shown plenty of lines, but also found some from vids. Same goes for trails. But that is the way it is nowadays, genie will not go back in the bottle. Each of us has benefited plenty from the internet and gpxs as much as we've been 'harmed'. The thing to keep in mind is the Rangers are the most sensitive to the most public things, such as the jump at the National\Mormon intersection.
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  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    i bet the Rangers know most of them, but they were less ridden. I've been shown plenty of lines, but also found some from vids. Same goes for trails. But that is the way it is nowadays, genie will not go back in the bottle. Each of us has benefited plenty from the internet and gpxs as much as we've been 'harmed'. The thing to keep in mind is the Rangers are the most sensitive to the most public things, such as the jump at the National\Mormon intersection.
    Not saying the genie needs to be placed back in the bottle. But if you're drinking a 12 pack a night. No need to announce it each day to your boss. Vids and such are cool. Don't get me wrong on my question. Even if said ranger knew of these lines. Seeing the masses riding it for 20 minutes on a forum could bring it to the forefront of their current activities list.
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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    I'd like to say that the ranger(s) have gone way too far in their efforts to block "spider" trails. The signs are f u c k i n g stupid!!! Especially the one that says, "I see you". Give me a break! This has nothing to do with saving wildlife, or the super special crust that takes 1000 years to create. The real "spider" trails are still there! These are the ones that cut the switchbacks and cause real errosion problems. I see them all the way up natty and I don't see any real effort to block these. It seems this is personal and directed at mt bikers. Their efforts would be more usefull removing trash, graffiti, and repairing established trails. Lower natty needs serious work, but the rangers are too busy making stupid signs.
    I hear you, but these signs are all over the park, not just in biking areas. I saw signs on telegraph, on upper Natty above Telegraph, some of the horse/hike trails near the Central entrance. They seem to be focusing on high-traffic areas, not just bike areas. Makes sense to me.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Not saying the genie needs to be placed back in the bottle. But if you're drinking a 12 pack a night. No need to announce it each day to your boss. Vids and such are cool. Don't get me wrong on my question. Even if said ranger knew of these lines. Seeing the masses riding it for 20 minutes on a forum could bring it to the forefront of their current activities list.
    imo, the Rangers are 'reactive'. they are so understaffed and overworked they are mostly trying to keep the peace, not surf Vimeo. The specific items that started this thread are about the most visible b-lines on National. Its a combination of visibility and politics that prompt the Rangers to action. I do not agree with some of their agendas and rationalizations (piles of brush do not look more natural than a small landing line), but they are in charge so we've got to make our activities pass their smell test if we want to maintain access to the mountain.
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dag Nabbit View Post
    So how long until they can get to this monstrosity? It's the largest mountain nipple I've ever seen. There's not even a trail junction there.



    Good job raising awareness. Needs to be done every now and then. While the preserve isn't a playground, it sure can look like one with all the rock features and a little imagination. We must resist the dark side! (no matter how much fun....)
    This is gone too, BTW, and this is not a popular MTB trail. I really don't think MTBs are being singled out. Off trail use and rock stacking in high-use areas is.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    imo, the Rangers are 'reactive'. they are so understaffed and overworked they are mostly trying to keep the peace, not surf Vimeo. The specific items that started this thread are about the most visible b-lines on National. Its a combination of visibility and politics that prompt the Rangers to action. I do not agree with some of their agendas and rationalizations (piles of brush do not look more natural than a small landing line), but they are in charge so we've got to make our activities pass their smell test if we want to maintain access to the mountain.

    Since I mostly ride PMP I will speak on that location. In 6 years of riding out there I have yet to see a Ranger on the trail. Most of the time they are sitting in a truck in a lot. Watching Vimeo on there IPhone.
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  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman View Post
    I hear you, but these signs are all over the park, not just in biking areas. I saw signs on telegraph, on upper Natty above Telegraph, some of the horse/hike trails near the Central entrance. They seem to be focusing on high-traffic areas, not just bike areas. Makes sense to me.
    This just seems pointless to me. Moving huge rocks to block a line that is not causing any errosion issues. It's like they get off on how much s h i t they can pile up. It looks horrible. If they are understaffed, they should look at maximizing their efforts and not waste time busting j-walkers.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Allow me to ask a question. Did the rangers know about every off shoot or secret line on the mountain pre-gopro days? Or has it become more of an issue when everyone thinks they need to post the 30 seconds of video they have of themselves on a forum such as this.

    IMO there is something to be said about going about your business. Without feeling the feed to broadcast every second of it to the world.
    Isn't this why TD has been derailing all the posts? To deter others from posting videos?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Isn't this why TD has been derailing all the posts? To deter others from posting videos?
    Why TD does what he does is beyond explanation.
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  81. #81
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    How beautiful and natural does this look.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spread the word: Respect PHX trails-img_0915.jpg  

    Spread the word: Respect PHX trails-img_0916.jpg  

    Spread the word: Respect PHX trails-img_0917.jpg  

    Spread the word: Respect PHX trails-img_0918.jpg  


  82. #82
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    retarded.......but when the mountain sees as much traffic as it does nowadays one had to wonder how long till something like this was going to happen .

    I even notice they say its the LAW lol...now thats funny..Can't find the staute for that one next will be tickets for off trail and speeders
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
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  83. #83
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    Tony, I hear your frustration and God knows I take the occasional slightly off trail kicker, but I guess I am wondering where the line is? Should we be able to ride wherever we want on the whole mountain? 100 feet off the trail? 2 feet? I guess I worry that if the Rangers don't try to control the spider trails, then more and more spider trails show up farther and farther off the trail. Then the whole point of the park being a preserve doesn't matter anymore.

    I remember when we used to hit the big drops off of Mormon near the upper Mormon/National junction and the rangers closed that off. After just a few years, it is starting to look pretty natural again. In 10 years, I bet we won't be able to tell that this particular section had ever been been ridden on.
    Getting a dropper post is like getting a bidet. I didn't know I needed one until I get one and boy, does my ass thank me.

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    Next time I'm up there, I'll call that number and ask the putz who answers what I'm wearing!

  85. #85
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    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    retarded.......but when the mountain sees as much traffic as it does nowadays one had to wonder how long till something like this was going to happen .

    I even notice they say its the LAW lol...now thats funny..Can't find the staute for that one next will be tickets for off trail and speeders

    Check out Phoenix City Code 24-36 and 24-37. I think these ordinances could easily be interpreted to include the off trail damage, ignoring signs, etc that some trail users, not only mountain bikers, seem to engage in . I am not trying to be an insufferable know-it-all but there is a law in place. The fact is it is just rarely enforced.

    As for the tickets, it is not out of the question. This happens in California. So I hope we all just play nice, stay on the trail, and obey the rules.
    Getting a dropper post is like getting a bidet. I didn't know I needed one until I get one and boy, does my ass thank me.

  87. #87
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    Well I not much of a off trail rider on somo and have never been so I don't need to worry .
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  88. #88
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    Thanks T. I'll use these photos to help redo my front yards landscaping.
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMPhi767 View Post
    Tony, I hear your frustration and God knows I take the occasional slightly off trail kicker, but I guess I am wondering where the line is? Should we be able to ride wherever we want on the whole mountain? 100 feet off the trail? 2 feet? I guess I worry that if the Rangers don't try to control the spider trails, then more and more spider trails show up farther and farther off the trail. Then the whole point of the park being a preserve doesn't matter anymore.

    I remember when we used to hit the big drops off of Mormon near the upper Mormon/National junction and the rangers closed that off. After just a few years, it is starting to look pretty natural again. In 10 years, I bet we won't be able to tell that this particular section had ever been been ridden on.
    I guess I thought the rangers where more in touch with the mt bike community. I thought we were gaining a bit of respect. I know of the spot you're talking about back in the day and it was clearly off trail and didn't make sense. I can understand that. The spots that the rangers are blocking are not, IMO. They flow with the trail and cause minimal damage.
    I love the fact that they destroy an entire area, make it look like a bomb went off, then post a sign that says, "Leave no trace!"

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    I guess I thought the rangers where more in touch with the mt bike community. I thought we were gaining a bit of respect. I know of the spot you're talking about back in the day and it was clearly off trail and didn't make sense. I can understand that. The spots that the rangers are blocking are not, IMO. They flow with the trail and cause minimal damage.
    I love the fact that they destroy an entire area, make it look like a bomb went off, then post a sign that says, "Leave no trace!"
    Really? The spot that started this thread was a very poorly located jump. The landing zone run out was right into one of the most used intersections in the park. This place looked nice (outside of the huge rock pile) before that jump became "main stream".

    Then the huge path of destruction came about for the little 1.5 foot booter. Is that jump really so special? Whole of SoMo has so many more and better features that are on trail and do not have landing zone run outs into a heavily used intersection.

    The Park service tried to block it off many times but Mountain bikers kept making the area worse by fighting to open back up the jump. finally the park service took out the hiker made rock plie. less than a day later, a mountain biker cut a path to the jump again.

    So a group of Mountain bikers tried their best to make it look some what natural and close the area off for good. Yes *I* was one of those MTBers. once natural vegetation is permitted to regrow the area will look more natural.

    the only thing that can be done with spider trais is to cover them up, stop using them, and give nature a chance to reclaim them. Our mountains and deserts are very slow to re grow vegetation. but very easy to destroy.
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  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    How beautiful and natural does this look.
    Not very good or natural looking at all. However that area looks like it would be extremely difficult to re-veg in the short term. The fact that it will take YEARS to re-veg speaks to the fact that it is in a sensitive environment and is after all located in a PRESERVE. They do have to start somewhere, even if it looks like a pile of un-natural poop in the near term. Re-veging hard packed desert terrain is a demanding and often thankless job.

    Seems like the message is an overt one, not tolerating the status quo of off trail abuses by both hikers and bikers. In all likelyhood, its probably one that needed to be sent, and is really aimed at the multitude of new users who are following examples that were previously tolerated but can no longer be ignored for whatever reason. Times are a changing.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc View Post
    Really? The spot that started this thread was a very poorly located jump. The landing zone run out was right into one of the most used intersections in the park. This place looked nice (outside of the huge rock pile) before that jump became "main stream".

    Then the huge path of destruction came about for the little 1.5 foot booter. Is that jump really so special? Whole of SoMo has so many more and better features that are on trail and do not have landing zone run outs into a heavily used intersection.

    The Park service tried to block it off many times but Mountain bikers kept making the area worse by fighting to open back up the jump. finally the park service took out the hiker made rock plie. less than a day later, a mountain biker cut a path to the jump again.

    So a group of Mountain bikers tried their best to make it look some what natural and close the area off for good. Yes *I* was one of those MTBers. once natural vegetation is permitted to regrow the area will look more natural.

    the only thing that can be done with spider trais is to cover them up, stop using them, and give nature a chance to reclaim them. Our mountains and deserts are very slow to re grow vegetation. but very easy to destroy.
    Don't care about the jump at the bottom of natty. That one makes sense, too. I think they took that idea and went too far with everything else. We all know that these lines will all be back in a few months time anyway. They've been there for 15+ years. I would call that established.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog View Post
    Not very good or natural looking at all. However that area looks like it would be extremely difficult to re-veg in the short term. The fact that it will take YEARS to re-veg speaks to the fact that it is in a sensitive environment and is after all located in a PRESERVE. They do have to start somewhere, even if it looks like a pile of un-natural poop in the near term. Re-veging hard packed desert terrain is a demanding and often thankless job.

    Seems like the message is an overt one, not tolerating the status quo of off trail abuses by both hikers and bikers. In all likelyhood, its probably one that needed to be sent, and is really aimed at the multitude of new users who are following examples that were previously tolerated but can no longer be ignored for whatever reason. Times are a changing.
    So reasonable you are.

  94. #94
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    There is a trail and then there are "lines". It's fairly simple which is which.

    The park wants to regain control of the trails and eliminate all off-trail travel.

    You are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution.

    Be part of the solution.
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  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg View Post
    There is a trail and then there are "lines". It's fairly simple which is which.

    The park wants to regain control of the trails and eliminate all off-trail travel.

    You are either a part of the problem or a part of the solution.

    Be part of the solution.
    Putting petty signs up and destroying habitat in the process is a solution to the simple minded.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    Putting petty signs up and destroying habitat in the process is a solution to the simple minded.
    What do you suggest? It seems obvious that certain mt bikers aren't getting the hint.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    Putting petty signs up and destroying habitat in the process is a solution to the simple minded.
    Yeah, it's right up there with re-establishing lines that have obviously been blocked off and marked by the park rangers.

    Please explain how being adversarial promotes our relationship with the rangers and park?
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    What do you suggest? It seems obvious that certain mt bikers aren't getting the hint.
    Adopting the lines in question. Stop making signs that will end up as trash on the side of the trail. Stop destroying habitat, removing rocks, dead trees, and cactus and making piles of them infront of a 2 foot path that people have ridden for 15+ years. Spend more time removing graffiti, picking up glass, trash. Fixing damaged erroded trails. working with the mt bike community more. Listening more, etc...

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos View Post
    Adopting the lines in question. Stop making signs that will end up as trash on the side of the trail. Stop destroying habitat, removing rocks, dead trees, and cactus and making piles of them infront of a 2 foot path that people have ridden for 15+ years. Spend more time removing graffiti, picking up glass, trash. Fixing damaged erroded trails. working with the mt bike community more. Listening more, etc...
    well said
    though I do think the jump at the bottom of Natty was an accident waiting to happen.
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