Significant equestrian/bike accidents in Prescott area!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Significant equestrian/bike accidents in Prescott area!

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    Please read this...I have received this email through various channels over the past week several times now. Notice who wrote the email.:

    "I don’t know if you’ve heard, but I and 2 other riders were hurt last week in an equestrian accident in Granite Basin which was caused by a high speed biker who didn’t see us and didn’t stop. Our horses were hurt too. All 3 of us had concussions, even though I was wearing a helmet. One gal has a compression fracture of her spine. Another gal has a rib cartilage separation. I had a concussion and had an ultrasound on my lower back due to continued pain as well as lab tests. My horse’s tendons, both rear fetlocks were exposed and shredded, very deep wounds. If these wounds get infected, there’s nothing they can do for her besides put her down. I had the vet out to treat her before going to the ER for me. She is bandaged, on pain meds and antibiotics and confined so as not to injure the tendons further. She also had a gash into the RF coronary band into the hoof. An injury like that takes a year to grow out. Her LF leg tendon is swollen. It will take some time to know if she will make it, and longer still to know when and if she will be rideable again. Then there’s the mental thing. Has she been so traumatized by the accident as to be unsafe to ride? When and if she is rideable again, I will need to work with a trainer and start over from the beginning. It is not safe to assume she is the same quiet horse under saddle as she before the accident.
    We had to walk 4 miles back to the trailhead. We called a friend who alerted area equestrians to search for the horses who ran off, scared for their lives, by the bike monster. We filed a police report.
    This was the 6th injury trail accident involving horses caused by speeding bikes since April,that we know of. When I went to my primary care doctor, he said his wife was thrown from a horse startled by a speeding biker. This was the 2nd accident in a week, an accident just 7 days earlier on a different trail also resulted in a compression fracture of the spine. Thought you folks up in Flagstaff should know.
    *
    Kelly
    President, Back Country Horsemen of AZ"


    We can all have rhetorical conversations about how we feel about sharing trails with equestrians, but the reality is that we must share trails with these folks. If anyone is aware of these incidents and what happened specifically, it would be good for all of us if you(s) would to try to help change whatever the scenario is that is leading to these problems. This might mean working with the local land managers to build a DH/FR trail system. It might mean explaining to an inconsiderate friend that he needs to slow down and yield to equestrians. My recommendations may not be the right ones as I am not specifically aware of the trail situation in Prescott, but I am intimate with the importance of getting along with other trail users.

    If we don't police ourselves, and people continue getting injured, I guarantee someone else will police us right off the trails.

    This is a response I sent to some of the equestrian and Forest Service folks I know who forwarded this email to me:

    "We have seen this note numerous times now. We are very sorry to hear about the injuries.

    It sounds like there is some sort of management issue on the Prescott NF. Have any of you guys talked to the local District to try to get to the bottom of what is causing these repeat accidents? I am not personally that familiar with the Prescott area.

    It sounds to me like some trail(s) that equestrians have been using has become popular with cyclists recently, (maybe “downhillers”?), and the District might need to install some signage, do some user education (primarily with cyclists), and/or perhaps look at working with the cyclists to provide an alternate opportunity for these folks to ride somewhere else. This number and frequency of accidents sounds like more of a management problem than a “few bad apples”.

    At this point we are not aware of any significant specific issues with cyclist/equestrian user conflict on the Flagstaff District of the Coconino NF...please advise if anyone from the equestrian community has found otherwise.

    Please forward this note from me on to whomever may find this information helpful. I will be making a post to http://www.mtbr.com (mountain biking forum) to try to draw attention to this issue and try to get some folks to be more considerate and attentive (hopefully?)

    Please let me know if there is anything else we can do to be of help. Prescott is a little “out of our jurisdiction”, but we would do what we could. Please also bear in mind that the bad behavior or ignorance of a few should not reflect of the greater whole of the mountain bike community. We like you guys and want to work with you!

    Thanks!

    Anthony Quintile
    Flagstaff Biking Organization"

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    All-

    Please read this...I have received this email through various channels over the past week several times now. Notice who wrote the email.:

    "I don’t know if you’ve heard, but I and 2 other riders were hurt last week in an equestrian accident in Granite Basin which was caused by a high speed biker who didn’t see us and didn’t stop. Our horses were hurt too. All 3 of us had concussions, even though I was wearing a helmet. One gal has a compression fracture of her spine. Another gal has a rib cartilage separation. I had a concussion and had an ultrasound on my lower back due to continued pain as well as lab tests. My horse’s tendons, both rear fetlocks were exposed and shredded, very deep wounds. If these wounds get infected, there’s nothing they can do for her besides put her down. I had the vet out to treat her before going to the ER for me. She is bandaged, on pain meds and antibiotics and confined so as not to injure the tendons further. She also had a gash into the RF coronary band into the hoof. An injury like that takes a year to grow out. Her LF leg tendon is swollen. It will take some time to know if she will make it, and longer still to know when and if she will be rideable again. Then there’s the mental thing. Has she been so traumatized by the accident as to be unsafe to ride? When and if she is rideable again, I will need to work with a trainer and start over from the beginning. It is not safe to assume she is the same quiet horse under saddle as she before the accident.
    We had to walk 4 miles back to the trailhead. We called a friend who alerted area equestrians to search for the horses who ran off, scared for their lives, by the bike monster. We filed a police report.
    This was the 6th injury trail accident involving horses caused by speeding bikes since April,that we know of. When I went to my primary care doctor, he said his wife was thrown from a horse startled by a speeding biker. This was the 2nd accident in a week, an accident just 7 days earlier on a different trail also resulted in a compression fracture of the spine. Thought you folks up in Flagstaff should know.
    *
    Kelly
    President, Back Country Horsemen of AZ"


    We can all have rhetorical conversations about how we feel about sharing trails with equestrians, but the reality is that we must share trails with these folks. If anyone is aware of these incidents and what happened specifically, it would be good for all of us if you(s) would to try to help change whatever the scenario is that is leading to these problems. This might mean working with the local land managers to build a DH/FR trail system. It might mean explaining to an inconsiderate friend that he needs to slow down and yield to equestrians. My recommendations may not be the right ones as I am not specifically aware of the trail situation in Prescott, but I am intimate with the importance of getting along with other trail users.

    If we don't police ourselves, and people continue getting injured, I guarantee someone else will police us right off the trails.

    This is a response I sent to some of the equestrian and Forest Service folks I know who forwarded this email to me:

    "We have seen this note numerous times now. We are very sorry to hear about the injuries.

    It sounds like there is some sort of management issue on the Prescott NF. Have any of you guys talked to the local District to try to get to the bottom of what is causing these repeat accidents? I am not personally that familiar with the Prescott area.

    It sounds to me like some trail(s) that equestrians have been using has become popular with cyclists recently, (maybe “downhillers”?), and the District might need to install some signage, do some user education (primarily with cyclists), and/or perhaps look at working with the cyclists to provide an alternate opportunity for these folks to ride somewhere else. This number and frequency of accidents sounds like more of a management problem than a “few bad apples”.

    At this point we are not aware of any significant specific issues with cyclist/equestrian user conflict on the Flagstaff District of the Coconino NF...please advise if anyone from the equestrian community has found otherwise.

    Please forward this note from me on to whomever may find this information helpful. I will be making a post to http://www.mtbr.com (mountain biking forum) to try to draw attention to this issue and try to get some folks to be more considerate and attentive (hopefully?)

    Please let me know if there is anything else we can do to be of help. Prescott is a little “out of our jurisdiction”, but we would do what we could. Please also bear in mind that the bad behavior or ignorance of a few should not reflect of the greater whole of the mountain bike community. We like you guys and want to work with you!

    Thanks!

    Anthony Quintile
    Flagstaff Biking Organization"
    Assuming this email is true, a curse on the house to the first person who tries to pass blame on anybody *but* the cyclists.

    Agree 100% with Anthony's observations and requests. And if a cyclist can't control themselves to the point where he/she can seriously injure other trail users, said cyclist should be dealt with. They are jeopardizing trail access for all of us.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  3. #3
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    I was wondering if someone from up here was going to post this....

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    This is news to me. The new recent signs about trail responsibility now make sense. .

    Dash
    Clearer-er of Prescott trails. Downhill downfall in your way? PM me. Have ax, will travel.

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    I cant tell from the letter if the cyclists actually impacted the horses in anyway or they just severly spooked the horses, causing them to fall or run off, and throw off the riders.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    I cant tell from the letter if the cyclists actually impacted the horses in anyway or they just severly spooked the horses, causing them to fall or run off, and throw off the riders.
    Agreed. Can someone confirm if the rider's and horses collided?

    Dash

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    It sounds to me like some trail(s) that equestrians have been using has become popular with cyclists recently, (maybe “downhillers”?), and the District might need to install some signage, do some user education (primarily with cyclists), and/or perhaps look at working with the cyclists to provide an alternate opportunity for these folks to ride somewhere else. This number and frequency of accidents sounds like more of a management problem than a “few bad apples”.
    I support your letter with the exception of the highlighted statement above. There is absolutely nothing in the Granite Basin area that would attract anyone who might call themselves a downhiller. I'm disappointed that you would draw out one segment of the biker population.

    I'd also like to get more facts on the accidents before assuming the bicyclist was at fault. Were the horses being ridden used to shared-use trails? Do they spook at the mere sight of bikes? Most likely these events are a shared responsibility of both parties not behaving in a responsible manner. It is super sad that the injuries occurred, but it's impossible to lay blame with the facts that have been provided.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DurtGurl View Post
    I support your letter with the exception of the highlighted statement above. There is absolutely nothing in the Granite Basin area that would attract anyone who might call themselves a downhiller. I'm disappointed that you would draw out one segment of the biker population.

    I'd also like to get more facts on the accidents before assuming the bicyclist was at fault. Were the horses being ridden used to shared-use trails? Do they spook at the mere sight of bikes? Most likely these events are a shared responsibility of both parties not behaving in a responsible manner. It is super sad that the injuries occurred, but it's impossible to lay blame with the facts that have been provided.
    Durtgurl, I apologize if my comment made it seem as if I was assigning any particular proclivity for bad behavior to DH riders, that was not my intent. Because of the recent rapid growth of this part of mountain biking, it has become common for a trail that is shuttle-able to suddenly become popular with DH riders, leading to a sudden increase in riders that leads to a user-conflict issue. My assumption was that this might be the case...as you will also see, I made a point of recommending creating opportunities for DH/FR specific trails. I also pointed out that my suggestions may not be specifically appropriate as I am unfamiliar with the Prescott area.

    I've got absolutely nothing against DH/FR riders and in fact am doing my best to help spearhead some opportunities for legal DH/FR bike-only trails here in Flagstaff...to the tune of weeks of time committed to participating as a Resource Advisory Committee member and helping to get $68,000 to do NEPA Analysis for, among other things, DH/FR trails on Mount Elden...I am doing a ton of other stuff on that front as well.

    Sorry if I wasn't 100% clear on my reasoning on that.

    On the "whose fault was it" discussion...this really doesn't matter...the rule is bikes yield to horses, and we will be the first to go if there is an ongoing safety issue. I do, however, agree that equestrians have a responsibility to train their horses properly...which still doesn't change the reality of how something like this can pan out.
    Last edited by Anthony; 08-17-2011 at 01:33 PM.

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    "I don’t know if you’ve heard, but I and 2 other riders were hurt last week in an equestrian accident in Granite Basin which was caused by a high speed biker who didn’t see us and didn’t stop."

    I haven't heard of any "Significant equestrian/bike accidents in Prescott area." Doesn't mean it it's not occuring, just that it's news to me. Until we get confirmation of a collision, this is seemingly an instance of spooked horses.

    Can anybody confirm any recent horse/rider collision?

    Dash

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurtGurl View Post
    I support your letter with the exception of the highlighted statement above. There is absolutely nothing in the Granite Basin area that would attract anyone who might call themselves a downhiller. I'm disappointed that you would draw out one segment of the biker population.

    I'd also like to get more facts on the accidents before assuming the bicyclist was at fault. Were the horses being ridden used to shared-use trails? Do they spook at the mere sight of bikes? Most likely these events are a shared responsibility of both parties not behaving in a responsible manner. It is super sad that the injuries occurred, but it's impossible to lay blame with the facts that have been provided.
    well said DG.

    Hopefully there is more to this story, and those who were injured will recover. And if someone did something reckless, they will be punished. I certainly understand the emotion behind the email from those involved. For the rest of us who should maintain some perspective, in order to properly evaluate potential solutions, 2 points must be made.:

    'We' can't control all bikers. I can only control myself, communicate directly with those I am riding with, and offer suggestions and dialog to others on the trail or the internet who are willing to engage in it. Policing is not something I am capable of nor have any authority to do. Please consider how absurd and potentially dangerous such a challenge\critique really is, and leave policing to the proper authorities.

    Second, equestrians need to acknowledge that their sport carries with it fundamental risks, and those risks go beyond them and the trail alone. I've had equestrians training in a pen at the public Westworld TH complain about my kids riding up to the bathroom in the parking lot scaring their horse. Equestrians are 6 feet in the air and beholden to an enormous animal with its own personality, and the interactions of others with an unknown unwieldy animal. It doesn't excuse a rider or anyone from not following the rules, but just like riding your bike at rush hour has more traffic, certain trails will have riders coming downhill, and small issues can be amplified.

    @Anthony - yield means different things to different yieldees. To a hiker, it might mean slowing down and sliding to the side of the trail and everyone is happy. To an experienced equestrian, it might mean announcing yourself and waiting for them to tell you its ok to pass. To an novice equestrian, it might mean getting off my bike and off the trail. That imo takes yielding to an excessive level as that is no longer trail-sharing, its a tacit acknowledgment that you (biker, hiker, horse et al) can't share but you actually require the entire trail. I will gladly do it when someone is polite and communicates, but it IS an extra step that those requiring such accomodations should appreciate and repay with a 'thank you' just like I try to say thanks to people who step aside for me. There are a lot of equestrians who expect everyone on a bike to step off trail and wait wait wait for them while not making a peep, or who are incapable of allowing a rider to safely pass. There are a lot of equestrians who think their horses are covered under the Bill of Rights. Just saying, friendly communication and willingness to compromise must go around for all parties, as well as an appreciation of the risks you embrace on a particular horse or particular trail.
    Last edited by chollaball; 08-17-2011 at 01:23 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    On the "whose fault was it" discussion...this really doesn't matter...the rule is bikes yield to horses, and we will be the first to go if there is an ongoing safety issue. I do, however, agree that equestrians have a responsibility to train their horses properly...which still doesn't change the reality of how something like this can pan out.
    100% agree. Fault is really a moot point if an equestrian is going to start making accusations. Please, please, please don't start pointing fingers. We need to, for lack of a better word, take responsibility and let those in a who have the authority to ban cyclists know we will do a better job of sharing the trails (and policing ourselves).
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DashRiprock™®© View Post
    Can anybody confirm any recent horse/rider collision?

    Dash
    I need to clarify something here...whether or not bicycles actually hit or only spooked horses is really irrelevant.

    We mountain bikers cannot win that debate. There are protocols for how to interact with horses, and although they may seem silly or unfair, because equestrian trail use has a history that goes back for millennia before the invention of the bicycle we must abide by them. These rules will not be changing any time soon.

    Horses will be spooked by high speed cyclists approaching unannounced. Horses see cyclists as predators until we stop and identify ourselves as humans. That behavior goes back millions of years before the invention of the bicycle.

    That said, we can discuss whether or not it might be cool if we could make horses be less scared and require equestrians to look out for us, but that will not resolve the issue at hand.

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    I grew up with Horses, which is to say my Mother loves them and a lot of others do too. That said, I've seen horses spook and go nuts at nothing, let alone a bike going click-click-click as the rider stops pedaling.

    As a rule of thumb, STOP! and make sure the dumb animal your dealing with can see your eyes (remove glasses if you can). Do not stop dead ahead of a horse because they cannot see directly in front of themselves very well, one side or the other works best, 10 or 2 if the horse is facing you.

    if you're approaching from the rear slow down and make yourself known, try to keep freewheeling to a minimum, some sound like a rattler and the horse could spook. Understand that the rider has limited control over the animal and the animal must be comfortable with you, make conversation, be polite.

    I agree that if incidents like this persist we will not have trails to ride. And I get it that riding through road apples isn't nice either, but it's our choice to ride and we will lose, that mush is sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post

    @Anthony - yield means different things to different yieldees. To a hiker, it might mean slowing down and sliding to the side of the trail and everyone is happy. To an experienced equestrian, it might mean announcing yourself and waiting for them to tell you its ok to pass. To an novice equestrian, it might mean getting off my bike and off the trail. That imo takes yielding to an excessive level as that is no longer trail-sharing, its a tacit acknowledgment that you (biker, hiker, horse et al) can't share but you actually require the entire trail. I will gladly do it when someone is polite and communicates, but it IS an extra step that those requiring such accomodations should appreciate and repay with a 'thank you' just like I try to say thanks to people who step aside for me. There are a lot of equestrians who expect everyone on a bike to step off trail and wait wait wait for them while not making a peep, or who are incapable of allowing a rider to safely pass. There are a lot of equestrians who think their horses are covered under the Bill of Rights. Just saying, friendly communication and willingness to compromise must go around for all parties, as well as an appreciation of the risks you embrace on a particular horse or particular trail.
    I agree, and so do many equestrians I know.

    I was on a field trip with various folks, property owners, hikers, equestrians, public officials, land managers, etc., looking at an alignment for a potential new trail that was being opposed by local property owners because they were concerned about the addition bike traffic the trail would bring to their neighborhood.

    One of the property owners was also an equestrian. He pointed out that recently a mountain biker had ridden up behind his wife on her horse and not announced his presence. This failure to communicate led to the horse rearing up. He commented that this could have potentially severely injured his wife had she fallen.

    After we broke out of the discussion group and began hiking back to the cars, I pulled him aside. I apologized by saying, "I am sorry that happened to your wife. There are a lot of *******s in the world, and some of them ride mountain bikes."

    He responded, "Yeah, some of them ride horses..."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    I need to clarify something here...whether or not bicycles actually hit or only spooked horses is really irrelevant.

    We mountain bikers cannot win that debate. There are protocols for how to interact with horses, and although they may seem silly or unfair, because equestrian trail use has a history that goes back for millennia before the invention of the bicycle we must abide by them. These rules will not be changing any time soon.

    Horses will be spooked by high speed cyclists approaching unannounced. Horses see cyclists as predators until we stop and identify ourselves as humans. That behavior goes back millions of years before the invention of the bicycle.

    That said, we can discuss whether or not it might be cool if we could make horses be less scared and require equestrians to look out for us, but that will not resolve the issue at hand.
    BS! what is the protocol? Yield...what EXACTLY does that mean? you can't ring your bell, you cant move your arms or makes noise? Hiking with my kids by that definition is not yielding even if we step off the trail completely. Its an antiquated attitude for an increasingly obsolete sport, where the fundamentally dangerous situation the horseman chooses to put himself in becomes the burden for the rest of us. At a recent meeting at the McDowell Mtn. Park, the park manager revealed that the ratio of users was 90:10 bikers\equestrians. Look...I try to be nice and polite to everyone on the trail, and largely am very successful at it, I would never ever want to put someone at risk, especially not for 5 seconds of time. We bikers should try to work with other trail users every encounter as well as in planning sessions to have good experiences and design solutions that allows everyone to enjoy the outdoors. But I think its crap that our massively popular and growing numbers should be subservient to an animal. My 5 yr old has more control on the trail than many equestrians - its just that simple.
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    Can someone in Prescott try to research these accidents to determine what the true facts are? The nature of the accidents (collision vs spook), the trails they occured on (Spruce Mountain DH vs 396) or the behavior of the mountain bikers (high speed around blind corner vs low speed attempt to pass) all help determine what the problem is and how it could have been prevented. I would think that the Prescott NF would be the place to start since they most likely manage the land where the accidents occured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    I need to clarify something here...whether or not bicycles actually hit or only spooked horses is really irrelevant.
    .
    Oh it is absolutely relevant, and critical. The reason I ask about collision vs spooked is why would someone knowingly take a horse that may or may not spooke on a high multi-use trail? That area especially?? If a horse can and will spooke, do not take it on one of Prescott's fastest and most used multi-use areas from local's and out of towner's. I personally have never come across any out of control riders in that area. Again, doesn't mean it's not happening and it only takes one bad apple(s).

    I live and ride here and Prescott, and something stinks about this one. .

    Dash

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    Because of the recent rapid growth of this part of mountain biking, it has become common for a trail that is shuttle-able to suddenly become popular with DH riders, leading to a sudden user-conflict issue. My assumption was that this might be the case...
    this really doesn't sound much better as a defense of your original wording, in fact it could be interpreted as worse. you still seem to be targeting gravity riders.

    sure, an increase in use on a trail can possibly increase conflicts but to once again single out shuttle or DH riders is wrong. why are you making any assumptions at all?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    BS! what is the protocol? Yield...what EXACTLY does that mean? you can't ring your bell, you cant move your arms or makes noise? Hiking with my kids by that definition is not yielding even if we step off the trail completely. Its an antiquated attitude for an increasingly obsolete sport, where the fundamentally dangerous situation the horseman chooses to put himself in becomes the burden for the rest of us. At a recent meeting at the McDowell Mtn. Park, the park manager revealed that the ratio of users was 90:10 bikers\equestrians. Look...I try to be nice and polite to everyone on the trail, and largely am very successful at it, I would never ever want to put someone at risk, especially not for 5 seconds of time. We bikers should try to work with other trail users every encounter as well as in planning sessions to have good experiences and design solutions that allows everyone to enjoy the outdoors. But I think its crap that our massively popular and growing numbers should be subservient to an animal. My 5 yr old has more control on the trail than many equestrians - its just that simple.
    I tend to agree. I can remember one experience with a horse where I followed the rules and yielded. Im one of those people that stop, dismount, step off the trail and wait for instructions even though I argee its BS and not really sharing the trail. Regardless, this apparently wasnt enough for the horse who got spooked anyway and started to trot around irratically while the rider was yelling trying to get it under control. When you are dealing with a 1200lbs+ animal with the brain the size of a walnut, I dont know how anyone is supposed to put that interaction in a nice little box. All I know is if I get spooked and fall off my bike, it isnt going to take off like a 1200lbs bulldozer putting everyone else at risk.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by DashRiprock™®© View Post
    Oh it is absolutely relevant, and critical. The reason I ask about collision vs spooked is why would someone knowingly take a horse that may or may not spooke on a high multi-use trail? That area especially?? If a horse can and will spooke, do not take it on one of Prescott's fastest and most used multi-use areas from local's and out of towner's. I personally have never come across any out of control riders in that area. Again, doesn't mean it's not happening and it only takes one bad apple(s).

    I live and ride here and Prescott, and something stinks about this one. .

    Dash
    I doesn't not matter because you might actually be right...It doesn't matter, because it doesn't matter if you are right...

    (Read that closely, I think it makes sense?)

    We will most likely not win the "right or wrong" discussion here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DashRiprock™®© View Post
    Oh it is absolutely relevant, and critical. The reason I ask about collision vs spooked is why would someone knowingly take a horse that may or may not spooke on a high multi-use trail? That area especially?? If a horse can and will spooke, do not take it on one of Prescott's fastest and most used multi-use areas from local's and out of towner's. I personally have never come across any out of control riders in that area. Again, doesn't mean it's not happening and it only takes one bad apple(s).

    I live and ride here and Prescott, and something stinks about this one. .

    Dash
    I don't think anybody is going to disagree that something does not smell right about the original email. That said, you seriously don't want to get into a finger-pointing contest. Cyclists will lose. (Or, more accurately, hikers will win.)
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  22. #22
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    Believe me, I want to know. I want to know if somebody out there on our trails is making us looking like hell-bent chumps, or if this is axe-grinding exaggerations . .

    Any descriptions of these rider's who "didn't stop?"

    Dash
    Clearer-er of Prescott trails. Downhill downfall in your way? PM me. Have ax, will travel.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    One of the property owners was also an equestrian. He pointed out that recently a mountain biker had ridden up behind his wife on her horse and not announced his presence. This failure to communicate led to the horse rearing up. He commented that this could have potentially severely injured his wife had she fallen.
    This is a perfect example of one of the many dilemma's a mountain biker deals with regarding these types of situations. How did he know the mountain biker didnt attempt to announce his presence? Did she hear it? Was she talking and couldnt hear the repeated attempts? How loud should the announcement be before it actually becomes the factor that spooks the horse?
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    More info...just received this email:

    "Anthony-
    In speaking by email,*with the President of Back Country Horsemen of Central AZ in Prescott-one of those who was hurt in this accident, it*does sound like there have been ongoing issues in that area with these trails and with different user groups-one of which is that the Prescott FS and Visitors Bureau apparently released maps that inaccurately showed multi-user trails as Bike Only trails, and the bicyclists in this instance, who were from out of the area, weren't even aware that there might be horses on the same trails (much less hikers).* In addition, the signage that has been provided has been very poor-too small and not enough or in the right places.*
    *
    In forwarding this email to us, and in turn to you and to others, we are hoping to bring awareness to the devastating accidents that can result from ignorance or unwillingness of all parties to work together and that need be addressed seriously; and hoping*that we can use the information*to*address how to make our trails safer where we may come in contact with each other.
    "

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    Here is my two cents on this issue... First and foremost why in the hell do people ride horses on busy trails where there are people and fast moving objects (bikes etc)? I personally think these folks need to get a friggin brain and think about the dangers of this. As other have said a 1200lb animal that is not overly intelligent to begin with is not the best thing to have around hikers bikers etc for the plain and simple fact that the rider and or hikers/bikers can and will be injured or killed if the worse case scenario happens. Now as for the irresponsible bikers they need to grow up and pay attention to what they hell they are doing as well. if you were to run down a hiker at full speed you can kill them or severely injure them as well. Back to the horses i dont understand why people would want to ride a horse on a busy trail that has pedestrians and bikers on it. Everyone i know who owns horses and i know a lot of horse owners, they do not want to be around stupid people that could injure them or their animal they will purposely ride 15 or 20 miles in the middle of nowhere to have peace and quiet and piece of mind not to have to worry about these incidents. Not to mention a horse can take you anywhere you want to go why stay on a trail? If you are not skilled enough with a horse to be able to ride without a nice paved trail then you shouldnt be riding a horse anyways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 'size View Post
    this really doesn't sound much better as a defense of your original wording, in fact it could be interpreted as worse. you still seem to be targeting gravity riders.

    sure, an increase in use on a trail can possibly increase conflicts but to once again single out shuttle or DH riders is wrong. why are you making any assumptions at all?
    Got me dude...

    Note that I added the phrase "leading to a sudden increase in riders " shortly after I posted, and before I read your post.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by possumjenkins View Post
    Here is my two cents on this issue... First and foremost why in the hell do people ride horses on busy trails where there are people and fast moving objects (bikes etc)? I personally think these folks need to get a friggin brain and think about the dangers of this. As other have said a 1200lb animal that is not overly intelligent to begin with is not the best thing to have around hikers bikers etc for the plain and simple fact that the rider and or hikers/bikers can and will be injured or killed if the worse case scenario happens.
    That's not really the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by possumjenkins View Post
    Back to the horses i dont understand why people would want to ride a horse on a busy trail that has pedestrians and bikers on it. Everyone i know who owns horses and i know a lot of horse owners, they do not want to be around stupid people that could injure them or their animal they will purposely ride 15 or 20 miles in the middle of nowhere to have peace and quiet and piece of mind not to have to worry about these incidents. Not to mention a horse can take you anywhere you want to go why stay on a trail? If you are not skilled enough with a horse to be able to ride without a nice paved trail then you shouldnt be riding a horse anyways.
    You're probably correct in your assumption. The equestrians would probably perfer to ride trails sans any other trail users. Now ask yourself, do you want the same?
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    -[B]one of which is that the Prescott FS and Visitors Bureau apparently released maps that inaccurately showed multi-user trails as Bike Only trails
    Um, WTF?????? I'm going to admit, I've probably ridden less than 10% of the trails in the state, but I wasn't aware that we had any "bike only trails." That typo is kind of a big one if you ask me.
    Last edited by Casual Observer; 08-17-2011 at 04:02 PM.
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    Prescitt trails becomming popular with "downhillers"? Shirley you jest? There are no "shuttleable" trails in Granite Basin..so stop making stuff up.

    The "back country horsemen" are the same a**holes that tried putting signs up on all the Granite Basin trails to make it look like the built /maintain trails out there. I found that especially insulting when i found it on a trail that i helped build, and there were no "back country horsemen" then, not to mention the massive damage they cause on our prescitt trails, especially Granite Basin when its muddy.

    Thank god i rode in flagstaff last weekend (and williams the one before...)
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    It seems to me that I saw an email like this a few months back from the same person......deja vu on my part, or does anyone else seem to remember this?




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    Maybe that's why she included this statement :

    'This was the 6th injury trail accident involving horses caused by speeding bikes since April,that we know of. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    I need to clarify something here...whether or not bicycles actually hit or only spooked horses is really irrelevant.

    We mountain bikers cannot win that debate. There are protocols for how to interact with horses, and although they may seem silly or unfair, because equestrian trail use has a history that goes back for millennia before the invention of the bicycle we must abide by them. These rules will not be changing any time soon.

    Horses will be spooked by high speed cyclists approaching unannounced. Horses see cyclists as predators until we stop and identify ourselves as humans. That behavior goes back millions of years before the invention of the bicycle.

    That said, we can discuss whether or not it might be cool if we could make horses be less scared and require equestrians to look out for us, but that will not resolve the issue at hand.
    Why is an equestrian's lack of control over their unpredictable animal my responsibility?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Why is an equestrian's lack of control over their unpredictable animal my responsibility?
    It's not.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Maybe that's why she included this statement :

    'This was the 6th injury trail accident involving horses caused by speeding bikes since April,that we know of. "
    Guess I should learn to read....thanks.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Prescitt trails becomming popular with "downhillers"? Shirley you jest? There are no "shuttleable" trails in Granite Basin..so stop making stuff up.

    Jayem, please read my posts more carefully....I was trying to suggest potential scenarios to look for, not cast aspersions.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire View Post
    It's not.
    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire View Post
    100% agree. Fault is really a moot point if an equestrian is going to start making accusations. Please, please, please don't start pointing fingers. We need to, for lack of a better word, take responsibility and let those in a who have the authority to ban cyclists know we will do a better job of sharing the trails (and policing ourselves).
    pick a side Skinny
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    pick a side Skinny
    Jayem asked "why is an equestrian's lack of control over their unpredictable animal my responsibility?" It's not his responsibility to make sure somebody can contol his or her unpredictable animal. But I think I've made it clear here and in the past, if you want to start making this an us vs. them issue, we're going to lose.

    All you can do is try and play nice with other trail users. There are going to be some you'll never be able to please, and in those cases all you can do is smile and apologize.

    I admire those who want to stand up for themselves as cyclists, who always seem to get the shaft. But there are really two options here:
    1. Keep trails open to all users. You are never, ever going to convince the majority that a horse should yield to a biker.
    2. Designate trails for specific uses, meaning banning a certain faction.

    Which do you prefer?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  38. #38
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    Doesn't really matter who's right or who's wrong, how big the horse is, whether or not the rider should have better control, whether or not it was a "down hiller", a cross country rider, or a twelve year old kid on a bike. It doesn't matter what you all think your rights are.

    The bottom line is that repeated incidents can and will result in additional (like we need any more) trails being closed to bikes. So ride as careful as you can and be as courteous as you can when you encounter others on the trails.
    Last edited by Centurion_; 08-17-2011 at 03:51 PM. Reason: spellcheck

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    Quote Originally Posted by centurion_ View Post
    doesn't really matter who's right or who's wrong, how big the horse is, whether or not the rider should have better control, whether or not it was a "down hiller", a cross country rider, or a twelve year old kid on a bike. It doesn't mnatter what you all think your rights are.

    The bottom line is that repeated incidents can and will result in additional (like we need any more) trails being closed to bikes. So ride as careful as you can and be as courteous as you can when you encounter others on the trails.
    yes!

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Why is an equestrian's lack of control over their unpredictable animal my responsibility?
    Because if you and a horse interact on a trail and the horse freaks out and causes injury to the rider, this can lead to the trail being closed to bikes. This rarely, if ever, would go the other way.

    Life isn't fair, but it happens.

  41. #41
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    You would think that something involving horses and people in this magnitude would be put in this small town paper? I mean, all 3 horse riders had concussions, 1 had spine damage and another had rib seperation and they managed to walk out 4 miles still. Sounds like a major news story thats worth some space on the news.
    Hmmm, I ride Granite alot and my wife rides horses alot. Live right next door to Granite. I or my wife haven't heard anything around here about this big mishap. Smells like horse S H ! T to me. Oh ya, you can shuttle Granite BTW.
    SHITBIRD

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire View Post
    Jayem asked "why is an equestrian's lack of control over their unpredictable animal my responsibility?" It's not his responsibility to make sure somebody can contol his or her unpredictable animal. But I think I've made it clear here and in the past, if you want to start making this an us vs. them issue, we're going to lose.

    All you can do is try and play nice with other trail users. There are going to be some you'll never be able to please, and in those cases all you can do is smile and apologize.

    I admire those who want to stand up for themselves as cyclists, who always seem to get the shaft. But there are really two options here:
    1. Keep trails open to all users. You are never, ever going to convince the majority that a horse should yield to a biker.
    2. Designate trails for specific uses, meaning banning a certain faction.

    Which do you prefer?
    i agree that we should all, always, try to get along. Yielding to a reasonable person\user is easy. But equestrians are, as a group, unreasonable. No other user group is as demanding and as difficult to share a trail with. They want their own parking lots cause their giant dogs cant event get out of the car without freaking out around bikes. eff that, when they are stomping their feet and pointing fingers, we should push back - politely, reasonably - and #1 is to call out the fundamental ridiculousness of their demanding everyone accomodate people who willingly put themselves at the mercy of an animal. The more we say it, the more bikers are polite on an individual basis, the more the horsepeople's ridiculous position is revealed. My daughter got kicked by a horse recently, who's owner was selling rides - it was her own stupid fault for bothering the horse, and it never crossed my mind to point fingers at the equestrian cause she was being stupid around an animal - if it was anyone's fault it was mine. Oh wow, common sense and self-responsibility, what a concept.

    We don't know what happened in this case. Probably the biker contributed to the suddenness of the situation, but in the rest of the world problem vs. no-harm-no-foul is determined by CONTACT. Scaring someone does not count, equestrians need to get a clue.
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    Watch out for those Dew drinking downhillers. They are a menace to are society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    yes!
    I'm not buying it. All the hot air that happens down her in Phx about downhillers blah blah blah, horses vs. bikes blah blah blah...then we show up to meetings and are as reasonable as can be. The Rangers and Land Managers realize, like they have all along, that the people they can reach or showing up at meetings are not the problems and they can't punish us. I am, for lack of a better word, militant about this here on the forum. But in meatspace and in meetings I am totally polite when it comes to these interactions. You get 100 people like this, and no one is closing any trails. Be respectful, share the trail, but don't act like a 2nd class citizen because we are not.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    i agree that we should all, always, try to get along. Yielding to a reasonable person\user is easy. But equestrians are, as a group, unreasonable. No other user group is as demanding and as difficult to share a trail with. They want their own parking lots cause their giant dogs cant event get out of the car without freaking out around bikes. eff that, when they are stomping their feet and pointing fingers, we should push back - politely, reasonably - and #1 is to call out the fundamental ridiculousness of their demanding everyone accomodate people who willingly put themselves at the mercy of an animal. The more we say it, the more bikers are polite on an individual basis, the more the horsepeople's ridiculous position is revealed. My daughter got kicked by a horse recently, who's owner was selling rides - it was her own stupid fault for bothering the horse, and it never crossed my mind to point fingers at the equestrian cause she was being stupid around an animal - if it was anyone's fault it was mine. Oh wow, common sense and self-responsibility, what a concept.

    We don't know what happened in this case. Probably the biker contributed to the suddenness of the situation, but in the rest of the world problem vs. no-harm-no-foul is determined by CONTACT. Scaring someone does not count, equestrians need to get a clue.
    Do we really want to go down this path? By making general statements about a certain group? For the most part, it's pretty very easy to state in isolated incidents who is and is not as fault (although as you've pointed out, that can easily be up for debate depending on what side of the incident you're on).

    But when we start making sweeping comments about "all bikers are reckless hooligans" or "all equestrians are unreasonable and demanding," this all of a sudden because an us (bikers) vs them (other trail users). If you're okay with that, that's your prerogative. But I, personally, don't want to start getting into a finger pointing session for reasons I've stated earlier.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  46. #46
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    Public perception that bikes are a problem gets trails closed to bikes. I started riding in California over 20 ago, and I have to tell ya....a lot of the trails I used to ride are now closed to bikes.

    It really isn't a question of right or wrong or second class citizenship or any of that. It simply is what it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    I'm not buying it. All the hot air that happens down her in Phx about downhillers blah blah blah, horses vs. bikes blah blah blah...then we show up to meetings and are as reasonable as can be. The Rangers and Land Managers realize, like they have all along, that the people they can reach or showing up at meetings are not the problems and they can't punish us. I am, for lack of a better word, militant about this here on the forum. But in meatspace and in meetings I am totally polite when it comes to these interactions. You get 100 people like this, and no one is closing any trails. Be respectful, share the trail, but don't act like a 2nd class citizen because we are not.
    I hope, and believe, that you are right. I think if you read the two equestrian letters closely you will find that their tone is not confrontational at this point, and efforts on our part to spread the word will help keep things that way. This is all they are asking, and this was the point of my original post.

    Maybe you and I and many others here are not ignorant or rude on the trails, but there are mountain bikers who are, and driving home the importance of being aware of, and respectful of, other users can never hurt our cause.

    All of this said, if what the second equestrian letter said is true, the Prescott NF owes everyone an apology...that's some b** sh** right there.

  48. #48
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    she states :

    "accident in Granite Basin which was caused by a high speed biker who didn’t see us and didn’t stop. "

    maybe the guy on the bike never saw them ... not an excuse but .....

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire View Post
    Do we really want to go down this path? By making general statements about a certain group? For the most part, it's pretty very easy to state in isolated incidents who is and is not as fault (although as you've pointed out, that can easily be up for debate depending on what side of the incident you're on).

    But when we start making sweeping comments about "all bikers are reckless hooligans" or "all equestrians are unreasonable and demanding," this all of a sudden because an us (bikers) vs them (other trail users). If you're okay with that, that's your prerogative. But I, personally, don't want to start getting into a finger pointing session for reasons I've stated earlier.
    Do you think an animal has more right to a trail than a voter? Do you see a better way of ensuring our access to trails, that does not involve being grateful for crumbs? I've never whined to a land manager about an equestrian, seems like they do quite often. I don't really see it as us dictating the sides in the debate, only defending ourselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by helimech View Post
    Oh ya, you can shuttle Granite BTW.
    Ok, you *can* shuttle anything, but there is nothing to attract a downhiller, there is no place where you can park a car and ride "downhill" and then drive back around in any easy fashion. Singling DHers out was ridiculous from the start, and we both know that given the terrain in Granite Basin.

    Anthony, I think you being somewhat ignorant on this subject, although it's maybe not entirely your fault. The "Backcountry horsemen" have been trying to remove us from the trails for a while, and they've also made it clear that being truthful is not a requirement for them. Unless I see some other reason to, I don't believe them.

    They want to close the trails, but I don't think they will ever be able to, the Forest Service does a pretty good job of considering all the trail users. A bunch of old/angry white people that ride horses are not the only thing they are thinking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    Jayem, please read my posts more carefully....I was trying to suggest potential scenarios to look for, not cast aspersions.
    Ahh, well maybe internet heros that complain about mountain bikers not yielding and giving in to horseback rider's ridiculous demands (talking to the horse, etc) are the ones to blame. Remember, I'm just suggesting potential scenarios to look for.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    I think 'Kelly, President, Back Country Horsemen of AZ" is blowing this way out of proportion... I've come across hundreds of horses on my dirtbike over the years and NEVER spooked any of them ... I really can not see how the sight or sound of a mountain bike can spook a horse.

    JMHO

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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Do you think an animal has more right to a trail than a voter? Do you see a better way of ensuring our access to trails, that does not involve being grateful for crumbs? I've never whined to a land manager about an equestrian, seems like they do quite often. I don't really see it as us dictating the sides in the debate, only defending ourselves.
    Let me rephrase your question: do you have more right to a trail that an equestrian? No. And I don't think they have more of a right to the trail than we do.

    I'm not sure I understand what "being grateful for crumbs" means, but as far as I'm aware we have just as much right to use the trails as they do, correct? I get your point: no matter how hard you try to be nice and follow the “rules,” (some) equestrians are going to ***** and moan. That part I get. I'm just curious what you're proposing as a solution. One that us, as cyclists, can execute.

    If you're suggesting beating them at their game and whining to the land managers, I'm not sure I can support that.
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  54. #54
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    Ole' President Kelly strikes me as the kind of person who expects others to deal with her mess:
    http://www.bchcaz.org/images/article...H%20ticket.pdf




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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    Ole' President Kelly strikes me as the kind of person who expects others to deal with her mess:
    http://www.bchcaz.org/images/article...H%20ticket.pdf
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    .....also....don't fool yourselves here, Kelly has a strong agenda which is centered on keeping MTB's off the trails....she's talking out of both sides of her mouth here:

    http://www.bchcaz.org/images/article...Non%20Moto.pdf
    Last edited by Maadjurguer; 08-17-2011 at 06:00 PM.




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    Her name is Schwartz....
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Significant equestrian/bike accidents in Prescott area!-n39710055_31742688_5205.jpg  

    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    .....also....don't fool yourselves here, Kelly has a strong agenda which is centered on keeping MTB's off of the trails....she's talking out of both sides of her mouth here:

    http://www.bchcaz.org/images/article...Non%20Moto.pdf
    She appears to be concerned with the speed differential ..Maybe we need a minimum speed limit on trails.... kinda like the freeway system. getty up horse.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    I agree, and so do many equestrians I know.

    I was on a field trip with various folks, property owners, hikers, equestrians, public officials, land managers, etc., looking at an alignment for a potential new trail that was being opposed by local property owners because they were concerned about the addition bike traffic the trail would bring to their neighborhood.

    One of the property owners was also an equestrian. He pointed out that recently a mountain biker had ridden up behind his wife on her horse and not announced his presence. This failure to communicate led to the horse rearing up. He commented that this could have potentially severely injured his wife had she fallen.

    After we broke out of the discussion group and began hiking back to the cars, I pulled him aside. I apologized by saying, "I am sorry that happened to your wife. There are a lot of *******s in the world, and some of them ride mountain bikes."

    He responded, "Yeah, some of them ride horses..."

    Have u ever met" Kelly, President, Back Country Horsemen of AZ"?

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    It seems that PMBA has worked with the Backcountry Horsemen before...here is their website with reference to the events we're talking about......

    Prescott Mountain Bike Alliance: Trail Courtesy Reminder




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    The email seems a bit suspect in that it does not involve details about where, who was involved, etc.

    The police report thing also seems a bid dodgy as what law exactly would be broken.

    I would agree with Jayem about Backcountry.

    Given the signage around GB you would think that Backcountry is the provider of trails coming down from Mt Olympus to bestow them upon the unwashed masses.

    Other than spreading horse poop on the trails and chewing them up when it is wet I don't think I have seem much action by horse people on the trails.

    The fact is that horses are a part of GB and that a little common sense goes a good way.

    Horse people do not seem to roll up to the TH before 9 am and one should assume that hikers/horses, etc will be present to varying densities around GB.

    I always yield to hikers and horses by getting off the trail and waiting for them.

    What isn't helpful is people like the spandex clad weenie that whipped by me from behind on Mint Wash on Sunday (blue spandex 29er HT weenie, I'm talking to you).

    This dude was traveling at a high rate of speed to win the first inaugural Mint Wash cup championship trophy and didn't announce or utter a sound as he whipped by me.

    I was out mid-morning on this Sunday and sure enough I passed several groups of hikers and a pair of horses on the way back to the TH. Would have been the same groups of people that this azzhat would have come upon around the blind turns and limited visibility in the area.

    This kind of thing does not help when it comes to sharing the trail.

    It sure seems like the old Courier would have had something in it if something of this nature really went down with police reports, carnage, and mayhem...reporters do check out the police blotters

  62. #62
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    the 'pleasure horse industry',, i guessed motorized rides just weren't doing it for kelly and deb anymore

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    riders were hurt last week in an equestrian accident in Granite Basin which was caused by a high speed biker who didn’t see us and didn’t stop.
    What does an equestrian consider a high-speed biker? Hikers travel at 2-4mph, going up or down. Horses move at maybe 1-2mph quicker than that, although I have passed horses while hiking. An uphill bike rider moves at 4-8mph. A recreational rider going downhill is moving at over 10mph. Skilled riders can ride downhill at over 30mph. Maybe, just maybe, the trail has not been properly brushed and had blind corners opened up. The alledged victim states the alledged accident was caused by a biker who "didn't see us" and didn't stop. If I was on a ride and didn't see a horse on the trail, why would I stop, or even slow down. It's as if the horse riders may have been stopped off to the side of the trail, but not far enough off. Who knows. There is a lack of information and it is only being provided by an angry horse owner. For all we know, she injured her horse while riding and is looking to blame a biker in hopes of getting someone else to pay for her animals injury. Not likely, but it is way too early to blame the biker, based only on her story.

    I'm going to stand shoulder to shoulder with Jayem and Chollaball on this one. I don't buy into the notion that the 90% user group is going to get run off any trail. There were plenty of horses run over and killed when the first automobiles showed up. A lot of threats and a lot of fighting followed. But the horses lost out to the huge numbers of automobiles and were told to stay off the roads.

    If there are actual accidents, ones where attorneys are hired, it can play out in many ways. The equestrians won't get much cash from a biker, so they will make the case that the land manager created a dangerous trail with poor visibility. They might even win. But after they win, the land manager may just cut some trees and shrubs and open up visibility and then close the trail to horses, the 1-2% user group that never shows up to do volunteer trail work and does the bulk of trail damage. Thanks to Anthony and FBO, the Peaks District of the FS knows they couldn't possibly keep up with trail maintenance and construction without the biker community. On the other hand, they wouldn't miss the equestrian community for a second, if they all got mad and moved away.

    This is not a scenario where we can only lose. It is almost ceretainly a scenario where we can chase the equestrians out to the back 40, where they belong.

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    the first mountain bike blog posting they quote speaks of "105 kilometres"
    yeah,, that really sounds like locals talking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire View Post
    Let me rephrase your question: do you have more right to a trail that an equestrian? No. And I don't think they have more of a right to the trail than we do.

    I'm not sure I understand what "being grateful for crumbs" means, but as far as I'm aware we have just as much right to use the trails as they do, correct? I get your point: no matter how hard you try to be nice and follow the “rules,” (some) equestrians are going to ***** and moan. That part I get. I'm just curious what you're proposing as a solution. One that us, as cyclists, can execute.

    If you're suggesting beating them at their game and whining to the land managers, I'm not sure I can support that.
    Let me rephrase your rephrase - Do I get butt-hurt that National Parks don't allow dogs on most trails? Equestrians are welcome, as are their horses, but if their ANIMALS are the source of problems and injuries from other accepted trail users engaging in acceptable activities, the ANIMALS need to go. I'm fine with horses and equestrians - I don't like riding around them, but no biggie. I enjoy them being part of the scene more than I'd like to see them go, even while I don't like riding in their wake. Seems its equestrians who object to me and my bike. If it wasn't me and my bike, it'd be me and my dog. Or me and my kids. Or me singing too loudly, or me trail running and grunting. The problem, for some people, is an uncontrollable 1000lb animal. Bikers are an easy target.

    You, and others, have suggested that we are effectively the lowest on the totem pole, and should just accept that horse people can complain and we have to be nice or risk losing access. I disagree. My solution is not to whine to anyone, but when we as a group are called out, we should push back by making it clear that the combination of a few bad users AND some people who cant control their animals are the problem. We should do this by representing, being polite and absolutely willing to do what we can to spread the message. However, we need to make it clear that our power in proselytizing is limited to our friends and those already willing to listen, and the problem is still a user putting themselves at risk on an ANIMAL. And then as a daily practice, be nice to all other trail users.
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    Just got the scoop. PMBA and the Back country Horseman had a meeting last night about this incident and the other one on 396 last week or so. Anyway, it looks like both the biker and horse riders were at fault. The 396 incident was a blind corner and the horse rider was a skilled rider luckily. The Granite deal was a bunch of green riders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    .....also....don't fool yourselves here, Kelly has a strong agenda which is centered on keeping MTB's off the trails....she's talking out of both sides of her mouth here:

    http://www.bchcaz.org/images/article...Non%20Moto.pdf

    This is ridiculous...

    As I pointed out in the story I told in a previous post, some a-holes are mountain bikers, and some are equestrians.

    Since these folks (Back Country Horsemen...) are the source of this incident, I would suggest that we might want to be extra vigilant in practicing proper trail etiquette in order to not provide any more fodder for these folks. They apparently have an extreme viewpoint and time to act upon it.

    I have found that if you are the reasonable party coming to the agency (USFS) with a reasonable solution, you'll get more consideration than someone suggesting something that is marginal and outside the scope of regulation and best practices, which is precisely the case with the above-linked letter.

    I also am aware that two "environmental" groups' representatives have taken the opportunity provided by this incident to initiate conversations with USFS managers regarding problems with mountain bikers.

    Everybody make sure you are on your bestest behavior...no need to provide additional ammo to folks who want us off trails.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    This is ridiculous...

    I also am aware that two "environmental" groups' representatives have taken the opportunity provided by this incident to initiate conversations with USFS managers regarding problems with mountain bikers.

    Everybody make sure you are on your bestest behavior...no need to provide additional ammo to folks who want us off trails.
    I could not agree with you more.....their wording is a carbon copy of the the boilerplate used by some environmental groups who continue to oppose bikes in Wilderness.




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    Quote Originally Posted by helimech View Post
    Just got the scoop. PMBA and the Back country Horseman had a meeting last night about this incident and the other one on 396 last week or so. Anyway, it looks like both the biker and horse riders were at fault. The 396 incident was a blind corner and the horse rider was a skilled rider luckily. The Granite deal was a bunch of green riders.
    Jayem, 40 is a blast.
    Do you know, is this relationship (PMBA and BCHCA), an amicable one or a confrontational one? Was this meeting productive on the front of finding solutions or just a finger-pointing blame fest, or something else? I am curious about the organized groups' relationship down there...we get along pretty well up here in Flagstaff: two joint trail days, regular discussion on issues, etc.

  70. #70
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    BCHCA went so far as to show a get together with PMBA at Cayuse:

    Back Country Horsemen of Central Arizona (scroll to the bottom)

    I was unable to find a reciprocation on PMBA's site.......




  71. #71
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    About 3 years ago I caused a woman to fall off her horse while riding in the Granite Basin. I was climbing Mint Wash going incredibility slow. The older woman that was riding the horse was not paying attention. When the horse turned suddenly (less then spooked I would say) to look at me she fell off. I immediately stopped to check on the woman as she caught her breath and stayed w/ her until her riding partner told me to go on my way. They never accused me of being reckless but never took fault for not paying attention. If she happened to get seriously hurt I would still feel guilty even though I was not at fault in anyway.

  72. #72
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    thats it ... I'm selling my stumpy and getting a walker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Let me rephrase your rephrase - Do I get butt-hurt that National Parks don't allow dogs on most trails? Equestrians are welcome, as are their horses, but if their ANIMALS are the source of problems and injuries from other accepted trail users engaging in acceptable activities, the ANIMALS need to go. I'm fine with horses and equestrians - I don't like riding around them, but no biggie. I enjoy them being part of the scene more than I'd like to see them go, even while I don't like riding in their wake. Seems its equestrians who object to me and my bike. If it wasn't me and my bike, it'd be me and my dog. Or me and my kids. Or me singing too loudly, or me trail running and grunting. The problem, for some people, is an uncontrollable 1000lb animal. Bikers are an easy target.

    You, and others, have suggested that we are effectively the lowest on the totem pole, and should just accept that horse people can complain and we have to be nice or risk losing access. I disagree. My solution is not to whine to anyone, but when we as a group are called out, we should push back by making it clear that the combination of a few bad users AND some people who cant control their animals are the problem. We should do this by representing, being polite and absolutely willing to do what we can to spread the message. However, we need to make it clear that our power in proselytizing is limited to our friends and those already willing to listen, and the problem is still a user putting themselves at risk on an ANIMAL. And then as a daily practice, be nice to all other trail users.
    I'm confused, has anybody lost any access to any trails despite the claim that equestrians are going out of their way to suggest mt bikers are the problem? I still have no idea why there are so many mt bikers who get so worked up about certain things.
    I'll go back to my earlier statement.

    If we start pointing fingers, I really see two realistic options:
    1. Keep trails open to all users and live with it.
    2. Designate trails for specific uses, meaning banning a certain faction.

    Outside of that, I still have not heard any logical resolution. You know for a fact that you're never going to get horses banned from using the trails, so don't even bother.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silentG View Post

    It sure seems like the old Courier would have had something in it if something of this nature really went down with police reports, carnage, and mayhem...reporters do check out the police blotters
    Hey, as the former cops and court reporter for the Daily Courier, I can vouch for this. Every morning at 7 a.m. I was going through all the police reports .
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire View Post
    I'm confused, has anybody lost any access to any trails despite the claim that equestrians are going out of their way to suggest mt bikers are the problem? .
    http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/signi....html#poststop

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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Please explain, it's late.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire View Post
    Please explain, it's late.
    you're like those Jews in Germany who were surprised in 1940.

    too harsh? sorry...its late. somewhere up my family tree the stupid branches got exterminated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by murd View Post
    About 3 years ago I caused a woman to fall off her horse while riding in the Granite Basin. I was climbing Mint Wash going incredibility slow. The older woman that was riding the horse was not paying attention. When the horse turned suddenly (less then spooked I would say) to look at me she fell off. I immediately stopped to check on the woman as she caught her breath and stayed w/ her until her riding partner told me to go on my way. They never accused me of being reckless but never took fault for not paying attention. If she happened to get seriously hurt I would still feel guilty even though I was not at fault in anyway.
    You did not cause her to fall off UNLESS it was the result of you not yielding. If she fell off cuz the horse spooked, thats her fault.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    you're like those Jews in Germany who were surprised in 1940.

    too harsh? sorry...its late. somewhere up my family tree the stupid branches got exterminated.
    *Sign*

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire View Post
    *Sign*

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    thanks! we've got your back
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    Maybe if we agree to stop and drop a deuce on the trail at least once each ride, the out of control riders can be excused just like the out of control horses get a pass.

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    I think a part of this issue is the recent effort by certain factions in Prescott to promote the area as a MTB "destination" ala Moab. That certainly gets the attention of anti bike factions.

    I don't think trail use has increased appreciably, particularly considering some newer trails being built and promoted - spreads the use out.

    However, there is some very real push back by those that vociferously oppose any kind of trail use contrary to their preferred modality, be it hiking or horses. They fear the forest will be overrun by Red Bull guzzling miscreants destroying their idyllic Sunday jaunt in the woods. Let's thank Madison Avenue for that perspective....

    I don't doubt there were some incidents between bikers and equestrians. I don't doubt a certain equestrian group or three will capitalize on those incidents to push their agenda. So yes, be on your very best behavior at ALL times. While some might disagree, I'd argue that horse people in a rural southwestern town have more power and influence than MTBers. Kudos to PMBA for what they do with regard to education and establishing relationships with the city and other groups (ahem - equestrians) that utilize the same trails. I do think they are pro-active in this area.

    I've never had an ugly encounter with horses or any other trail users. BUT when I ride areas that are heavily traveled I make the conscious decision to get up and out before 9:00 a.m. Everybody knows horses don't do anything until Sunday at 9:30....

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    It had nothing to do w/ yielding. She was her not paying attention. I was 30ft in front of her when it happened. Unfortunately (or fortunately) it spooked me enough that I now ride GB area either super early or when it's super cold. There are plenty of other great riding places in P town w/o riding the horse heavy basin during peak hours.

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    Not confirmed = Horseshit.

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    It was Meeeeeeeeeee!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    thanks! we've got your back
    There will be plenty of places to ride. I'll just ride TD's Social Trails.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    I'm getting tired of this whole horse vs bike thing. We need to look out for them on the trails. Too many instances like this is what causes USFS to start patrolling with radar, ect. I haven't noticed it here, but have in other states.

    Also, horseback riders need to know that there's a certain amount of risk involved when riding their horse outside of a controlled environment. I've started helping people get their horses used to bikes. It's scary as hell for all involved, but hopefully it will help all involved in the long run.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by possumjenkins View Post
    Here is my two cents on this issue... First and foremost why in the hell do people ride horses on busy trails where there are people and fast moving objects (bikes etc)? I personally think these folks need to get a friggin brain and think about the dangers of this. As other have said a 1200lb animal that is not overly intelligent to begin with is not the best thing to have around hikers bikers etc for the plain and simple fact that the rider and or hikers/bikers can and will be injured or killed if the worse case scenario happens. Now as for the irresponsible bikers they need to grow up and pay attention to what they hell they are doing as well. if you were to run down a hiker at full speed you can kill them or severely injure them as well. Back to the horses i dont understand why people would want to ride a horse on a busy trail that has pedestrians and bikers on it. Everyone i know who owns horses and i know a lot of horse owners, they do not want to be around stupid people that could injure them or their animal they will purposely ride 15 or 20 miles in the middle of nowhere to have peace and quiet and piece of mind not to have to worry about these incidents. Not to mention a horse can take you anywhere you want to go why stay on a trail? If you are not skilled enough with a horse to be able to ride without a nice paved trail then you shouldnt be riding a horse anyways.
    Ditto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Why is an equestrian's lack of control over their unpredictable animal my responsibility?
    Ditto

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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    i agree that we should all, always, try to get along. Yielding to a reasonable person\user is easy. But equestrians are, as a group, unreasonable. No other user group is as demanding and as difficult to share a trail with. They want their own parking lots cause their giant dogs cant event get out of the car without freaking out around bikes. eff that, when they are stomping their feet and pointing fingers, we should push back - politely, reasonably - and #1 is to call out the fundamental ridiculousness of their demanding everyone accomodate people who willingly put themselves at the mercy of an animal. The more we say it, the more bikers are polite on an individual basis, the more the horsepeople's ridiculous position is revealed. My daughter got kicked by a horse recently, who's owner was selling rides - it was her own stupid fault for bothering the horse, and it never crossed my mind to point fingers at the equestrian cause she was being stupid around an animal - if it was anyone's fault it was mine. Oh wow, common sense and self-responsibility, what a concept.

    We don't know what happened in this case. Probably the biker contributed to the suddenness of the situation, but in the rest of the world problem vs. no-harm-no-foul is determined by CONTACT. Scaring someone does not count, equestrians need to get a clue.
    Ditto

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    Hey Cholla,
    I got kinda lost on this post.You're hypothetical sample of a horse started out at 1200lbs, and in more recent posts is now 1000lbs.That's a 200lb loss in just a couple days!I can't concentrate on the main topic of the thread because I'm worried about your hypothetical horses' sudden and dramatic weight loss.
    Please let me know how he/she is doing, and if there is anything I can do.I have a lot of pasta available and several cans of tuna,if that helps.Good Luck,it sounds like a great faux horse!(although a little skittish)
    codafurnituredesign.com

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Do you think an animal has more right to a trail than a voter? Do you see a better way of ensuring our access to trails, that does not involve being grateful for crumbs? I've never whined to a land manager about an equestrian, seems like they do quite often. I don't really see it as us dictating the sides in the debate, only defending ourselves.
    Ditto

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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    Let me rephrase your rephrase - Do I get butt-hurt that National Parks don't allow dogs on most trails? Equestrians are welcome, as are their horses, but if their ANIMALS are the source of problems and injuries from other accepted trail users engaging in acceptable activities, the ANIMALS need to go. I'm fine with horses and equestrians - I don't like riding around them, but no biggie. I enjoy them being part of the scene more than I'd like to see them go, even while I don't like riding in their wake. Seems its equestrians who object to me and my bike. If it wasn't me and my bike, it'd be me and my dog. Or me and my kids. Or me singing too loudly, or me trail running and grunting. The problem, for some people, is an uncontrollable 1000lb animal. Bikers are an easy target.

    You, and others, have suggested that we are effectively the lowest on the totem pole, and should just accept that horse people can complain and we have to be nice or risk losing access. I disagree. My solution is not to whine to anyone, but when we as a group are called out, we should push back by making it clear that the combination of a few bad users AND some people who cant control their animals are the problem. We should do this by representing, being polite and absolutely willing to do what we can to spread the message. However, we need to make it clear that our power in proselytizing is limited to our friends and those already willing to listen, and the problem is still a user putting themselves at risk on an ANIMAL. And then as a daily practice, be nice to all other trail users.
    Ditto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Prescitt trails becomming popular with "downhillers"? Shirley you jest? There are no "shuttleable" trails in Granite Basin..so stop making stuff up.

    The "back country horsemen" are the same a**holes that tried putting signs up on all the Granite Basin trails to make it look like the built /maintain trails out there. I found that especially insulting when i found it on a trail that i helped build, and there were no "back country horsemen" then, not to mention the massive damage they cause on our prescitt trails, especially Granite Basin when its muddy.

    Thank god i rode in flagstaff last weekend (and williams the one before...)
    Ditto

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    I think it is important to be under control and courteous to all trail users but even doing so there will always be some situations that spook a horse. It is reality that we are sharing trails but it is everybody's responsibility to be aware of the risks. That means if you choose to ride a horse on a popular multi use trail don't blame the other users for your inability to control a horse. I don't mean when a rider is clearly out of line but if your horse is so sketchy that the sight of a rider ahead or coming up from behind causes it to spook don't point fingers at the mtb rider. I'd say riding a sketchy horse on a trail where encounters are likely to happen is irresponsible on the part of the equestrian.

    It is easy for the equestrians to blame us mtb riders and I think it is important for us to recognize that sometimes it is our fault but I think we need to stand up for ourselves and make sure they accept more responsibility for controlling their animals. If I were a member of the Backcountry Horsemen I would suggest to the others to stay off the trails popular with mtb's unless they are good riders with solid horses. A little judgment on their part can solve a lot of their issues.

    If you drive your car the legal speed limit on an icy road loose control and get in an accident with another vehicle you can be cited for failure to control your vehicle even though you were driving at a legal speed. Just because other users are supposed to yield to horses doesn't mean the horse spooking is necessarily the other person's fault.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by helimech View Post
    You would think that something involving horses and people in this magnitude would be put in this small town paper? I mean, all 3 horse riders had concussions, 1 had spine damage and another had rib seperation and they managed to walk out 4 miles still. Sounds like a major news story thats worth some space on the news.
    Hmmm, I ride Granite alot and my wife rides horses alot. Live right next door to Granite. I or my wife haven't heard anything around here about this big mishap. Smells like horse S H ! T to me. Oh ya, you can shuttle Granite BTW.
    Double Ditto

  97. #97
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scary View Post
    Hey Cholla,
    I got kinda lost on this post.You're hypothetical sample of a horse started out at 1200lbs, and in more recent posts is now 1000lbs.That's a 200lb loss in just a couple days!I can't concentrate on the main topic of the thread because I'm worried about your hypothetical horses' sudden and dramatic weight loss.
    Please let me know how he/she is doing, and if there is anything I can do.I have a lot of pasta available and several cans of tuna,if that helps.Good Luck,it sounds like a great faux horse!(although a little skittish)
    rotflmao!
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
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  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    .....also....don't fool yourselves here, Kelly has a strong agenda which is centered on keeping MTB's off the trails....she's talking out of both sides of her mouth here:

    http://www.bchcaz.org/images/article...Non%20Moto.pdf
    Wow. I like how they start off the MTB Blog postings with someone clearly talking about descending a paved road, not a trail. May we counter?

    WHEREAS Horses can hit speeds up to 55MPH, the long time maximum speed limit allowed for registered motorized vehicles in this country.

    WHEREAS Horses can weigh up to up to 2,200 pounds, more then many registered motorized vehicles.

    WHEREAS The combined weight and speed and resultant force a horse and rider are capable of grossly exceeds that of any other trail user.

    WHEREAS Horses have been shown to be unpredictable and dangerous in their actions and armed with steel implements upon their hoofs.

    WHEREAS Horses have killed people who are inside of a motor vehicle.

    WHEREAS The above factors clearly aligns horses with registered motor vehicles instead of other trail users.

    BE IT RESOLVED THAT MTBR AZ Board members support the registration and licensing of horses in a manner equal to that proscribed by the ARS and AZ MVD for motor vehicles. Yes, tail pipe emissions too.

    BE IT RESOLVED THAT MTBR AZ Board members support the skills testing and licensing of horse operators/riders.

    BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT As horses are more the equal of motor vehicles their use is to be prohibited from any and all areas, trails, paths and roads where the public use of motor vehicles is also prohibited.

    *disclaimer - be nice to all other trail users, always yield, etc, etc., etc. If you can't take a joke, F 'em.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Bart View Post
    Wow. I like how they start off the MTB Blog postings with someone clearly talking about descending a paved road, not a trail. May we counter?

    WHEREAS Horses can hit speeds up to 55MPH, the long time maximum speed limit allowed for registered motorized vehicles in this country.

    WHEREAS Horses can weigh up to up to 2,200 pounds, more then many registered motorized vehicles.

    WHEREAS The combined weight and speed and resultant force a horse and rider are capable of grossly exceeds that of any other trail user.

    WHEREAS Horses have been shown to be unpredictable and dangerous in their actions and armed with steel implements upon their hoofs.

    WHEREAS Horses have killed people who are inside of a motor vehicle.

    WHEREAS The above factors clearly aligns horses with registered motor vehicles instead of other trail users.

    BE IT RESOLVED THAT MTBR AZ Board members support the registration and licensing of horses in a manner equal to that proscribed by the ARS and AZ MVD for motor vehicles. Yes, tail pipe emissions too.

    BE IT RESOLVED THAT MTBR AZ Board members support the skills testing and licensing of horse operators/riders.

    BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT As horses are more the equal of motor vehicles their use is to be prohibited from any and all areas, trails, paths and roads where the public use of motor vehicles is also prohibited.

    *disclaimer - be nice to all other trail users, always yield, etc, etc., etc. If you can't take a joke, F 'em.
    Love it
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  100. #100
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    Someone should make up some flyers.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

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