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  1. #1
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    Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years

    Today Nicole Branton the Red Rock Ranger District Ranger signed the Decision Memo to adopt and construct a bunch of new trails in the Red Rock Ranger District. Work will take place in the next three areas: West Sedona, the Village of Oak Creek and Camp Verde. The majority of new trails to be added to the system will take place in West Sedona.

    For a more detailed description this link should answer the majority of your questions: https://verdevalleycyclistscoalition...s-20180531.pdf

  2. #2
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    What a country!
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

    -Urban Yeti
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  3. #3
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    Awesome news! I didn't think they would re-align the majority of Last Frontier but it all looks pretty cool. Western Civ had the hand writing on the wall because of private property. And a new Plumber's Crack!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Awesome news! I didn't think they would re-align the majority of Last Frontier but it all looks pretty cool. Western Civ had the hand writing on the wall because of private property. And a new Plumber's Crack!
    Rockman I am sure all of the reroutes will be enjoyable to ride when completed. I think you would agree they all aren't necessary and will be costly to implement, but it seems like saving money is not necessary because funding seems is easy to come by. Or maybe it's not easy to come by. so the project will take longer. The point is the FS has agreed to ADOPT 17 miles of user created trails. That is a huge accomplishment. Those trails are awesome additions and will be enjoyed by mountain bikers for years to come. We have been enjoying those trails for years and it will be nice that they will now be enjoyed by others who only ride system trails or don't know about them. What a Country!

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    Personally I don't have anything bad to say about sections of user-created trails that are adopted but with short sections realigned. Some have added to the user experience. For example, Snake, Skywalker, Gunslinger (now called Chuckwagon) and the top end of Canyon of Fools. The fact that 17 miles of trail is being adopted speaks to the quality of the original construction.

    Nice to have Transcept back in the mix as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Personally I don't have anything bad to say about sections of user-created trails that are adopted but with short sections realigned. Some have added to the user experience. For example, Snake, Skywalker, Gunslinger (now called Chuckwagon) and the top end of Canyon of Fools. The fact that 17 miles of trail is being adopted speaks to the quality of the original construction.

    Nice to have Transcept back in the mix as well.
    Rockman I like the way the RRRD has become the poster child for getting large trail systems built using the Categorical Exclusion process which reduces cost and speeds up the construction process. I think the current people in charge learned from Jennifer Burns on how to reduce the bureaucratic process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Rockman I like the way the RRRD has become the poster child for getting large trail systems built using the Categorical Exclusion process which reduces cost and speeds up the construction process. I think the current people in charge learned from Jennifer Burns on how to reduce the bureaucratic process.
    Sedona is lucky to not have owls in the mix.

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    OK the other day I saw Plumber Phil driving through the Oregano's parking lot with three dogs in his car on his way to his favorite doggy swim hole. I flagged him down and asked him if he was getting ready to build the Western Gateway trails in August. He informed me that the start of construction might start in January 2019.

    I was a little disappointed by the slow process of getting the new trails built, but I am happy that the current trails to be adopted are still legal to ride. Without all those user-created trails riding in Sedona would suck. What a Country!

  9. #9
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    I heard Nov. They might be doing Transcept first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I heard Nov. They might be doing Transcept first.
    I thought PP was a good information source, but apparently you have a better source. Good to here they are starting earlier then what I had heard.

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    SB2; Sedona Rocks!
    You continue to keep their feet to the fire in Sedona; congratulations!! I will look forward to ridin some legal trails this Fall!
    If only every venue had a SB2, otr that guy that used to be around; Trail Doc RIP; What a Country! and 4.1% GDP.
    Cheers.
    TS

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    INFORMATIVE video: 400 miles of trails, WORLD CLASS mountain biking destination, eroding soils (especially on the super steep cliff areas), no idea how many users on the trails, Dry Creek area is not in the Wilderness.

  14. #14
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    Made the VVCC trail day on the Girdner realignment. So cool to see this project picking up steam.

    Before:
    Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years-girdner_1.jpg

    After:
    Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years-girdner_2.jpg

    Before:
    Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years-girdner_3.jpg

    After:
    Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years-girdner_4.jpg

    New tread!
    Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years-girdner_5.jpg

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    Rockman

    Nice work and thanks for getting it done.
    Are those full bench cuts?
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    Rockman

    Nice work and thanks for getting it done.
    Are those full bench cuts?
    No, more like a partial or half bench. Full bench would be better but the section we were working today is really steep and will need more fine tuning. The backslope needs to be cut back as well. We ran out of time and not a big turn out either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    No, more like a partial or half bench. Full bench would be better but the section we were working today is really steep and will need more fine tuning. The backslope needs to be cut back as well. We ran out of time and not a big turn out either.
    Rockman - thanks for making the trip down from Flag. Sorry I wasn't there to meet you but had to be in Phoenix Saturday.

    There are 11 more scheduled workdays through Feb 16th. Ten are sponsored by REI/Sedona Red Rock Trail Fund (providing pizza/cookies prize giveaways and hydration) and special aprŤs work day libations from Lagunitas Brewery generously donated to the VVCC. All workdays are posted on VVCC's website and begin at 8:30AM at the Girdner/Cultural Park Trailhead. Here's the schedule:

    November 29th
    December 1st (sponsored by Friends of the Forest)
    December 6th
    December 15th
    December 20th
    January 10th
    January 19th
    January 31st
    February 2nd
    February 7th
    February 16th

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunUpRanch View Post
    Rockman - thanks for making the trip down from Flag. Sorry I wasn't there to meet you but had to be in Phoenix Saturday.

    There are 11 more scheduled workdays through Feb 16th. Ten are sponsored by REI/Sedona Red Rock Trail Fund (providing pizza/cookies prize giveaways and hydration) and special aprŤs work day libations from Lagunitas Brewery generously donated to the VVCC. All workdays are posted on VVCC's website and begin at 8:30AM at the Girdner/Cultural Park Trailhead. Here's the schedule:

    November 29th
    December 1st (sponsored by Friends of the Forest)
    December 6th
    December 15th
    December 20th
    January 10th
    January 19th
    January 31st
    February 2nd
    February 7th
    February 16th
    SunUp thanks for the heads up. You guys are doing great work out there and hopefully youíll have a good turn out each volunteer day to get the new trail completed. The newly constructed sections are riding nicely.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunUpRanch View Post
    Rockman - thanks for making the trip down from Flag. Sorry I wasn't there to meet you but had to be in Phoenix Saturday.

    There are 11 more scheduled workdays through Feb 16th. Ten are sponsored by REI/Sedona Red Rock Trail Fund (providing pizza/cookies prize giveaways and hydration) and special aprŤs work day libations from Lagunitas Brewery generously donated to the VVCC. All workdays are posted on VVCC's website and begin at 8:30AM at the Girdner/Cultural Park Trailhead. Here's the schedule:

    November 29th
    December 1st (sponsored by Friends of the Forest)
    December 6th
    December 15th
    December 20th
    January 10th
    January 19th
    January 31st
    February 2nd
    February 7th
    February 16th
    Absolutely, always fun to play in the dirt. I won't miss that old alignment of Girdner that's for sure.

  20. #20
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    I made the VVCC trail day on the Girdner realignment today. It's moving along nicely and maybe late January perhaps for the finish line. Sounds like two ACE crews start in Jan as well. Thanks VVCC, SRRTF, USFS, and sponsors. It's going to be pretty cool.

    Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years-girdner_1.jpg

    Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years-girdner_2.jpg

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    Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years-girdner_4.jpg

    Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years-girdner_5.jpg

  21. #21
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    ^^^^ Nice work Rockman
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I made the VVCC trail day on the Girdner realignment today. It's moving along nicely and maybe late January perhaps for the finish line. Sounds like two ACE crews start in Jan as well. Thanks VVCC, SRRTF, USFS, and sponsors. It's going to be pretty cool.

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    Great job rockman. I talked with some buddies that were watching you guys from MAGA. On todayís ride we rode down Timís Wash from Plumbers Crack. I could see the hiker prints on the side of the hill leading up to the new section you guys were working on. I am curious how that lead in section will be routed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Great job rockman. I talked with some buddies that were watching you guys from MAGA. On todayís ride we rode down Timís Wash from Plumbers Crack. I could see the hiker prints on the side of the hill leading up to the new section you guys were working on. I am curious how that lead in section will be routed.
    As I understand it the Tim's Wash crossing is why the trail was routed so low. Any higher and it would have to wrap way up into the drainage (adding substantial mileage) and I think they are trying to minimize the use of switchbacks.

    Tricky terrain in there and it's obvious why the original trail just went simply down (and across) the drainage multiple times.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    As I understand it the Tim's Wash crossing is why the trail was routed so low. Any higher and it would have to wrap way up into the drainage (adding substantial mileage) and I think they are trying to minimize the use of switchbacks.

    Tricky terrain in there and it's obvious why the original trail just went simply down (and across) the drainage multiple times.
    OK I was curious how far the new Girdner Reroute has been completed. I accessed the Reroute at the Timís Wash side. There were fresh bike tracks on the trail and the trail surface was packed in nicely at the starting point. There was plenty of moisture in the dirt to allow for nice compaction.

    I think rockman will agree the new reroute is more of a beginner/intermediate trail than what the current alignment which is mostly intermediate/advanced. Itís too bad Ebikes arenít allowed yet in Sedona because this new reroute would make for an awesome Ebike trail.

    I am including pictures of the work that has been completed past the pictures rockman took.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Sedona and VOC Get Approx. 30 Miles of New System Trails in the Next Three Years-fe9a9aad-58b1-4486-8b80-f9352231634d.jpg  

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  25. #25
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    I don't know if I'd call it a beginner trail. There will still be some challenge but it's a class III arterial trail in the W. Gateway plan. And built wide to accommodate the horsey folks although I'm not sure they're going to like it as much as the old alignment. Which, being mostly an old cattle trail, mostly sucked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I don't know if I'd call it a beginner trail. There will still be some challenge but it's a class III arterial trail in the W. Gateway plan. And built wide to accommodate the horsey folks although I'm not sure they're going to like it as much as the old alignment. Which, being mostly an old cattle trail, mostly sucked.
    Rockman I think you will agree much of the new tread can be ridden by a beginner. Whenever I do a trail rating on Trailforks I give a percentage of what I think the trail difficulty is on a given trail. I would never recommend a beginner rider ride the new trail tread that would be irresponsible. In the same vain I would not call any of the new reroute an advanced ride. So far the whole reroute tread has been made into a Brown's Ranch type cruiser. I personally believe the dumbing down of the Girdner trail is a good thing for the 70%'ers.

    I am curious if the new reoute of the Heart trail will be similar to what is being done on the Girdner reroute?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Rockman I think you will agree much of the new tread can be ridden by a beginner. Whenever I do a trail rating on Trailforks I give a percentage of what I think the trail difficulty is on a given trail. I would never recommend a beginner rider ride the new trail tread that would be irresponsible. In the same vain I would not call any of the new reroute an advanced ride. So far the whole reroute tread has been made into a Brown's Ranch type cruiser. I personally believe the dumbing down of the Girdner trail is a good thing for the 70%'ers.

    I am curious if the new reoute of the Heart trail will be similar to what is being done on the Girdner reroute?
    Actually I don't think there are hardly any trails in Sedona that are beginner friendly. Bell Rock pathway maybe. My answer would be that if it's too dumbed down then ride it faster. Either way, that's what's in the Proposed Action so that's what's getting built. It's a stacked loop system. Whatever they build close to the Cultural Center will be the beginner loop. But hey, call it what you want. Makes no difference to me.

    How surprising of you to end your treatise with a question. The Heart Trail will also be a class III non-motorized multi-use trail. It drops almost 2000' in less than 4 miles at 4 to 7% grade. We'll be sure to work in some natural terrain features and rock for you to play on in case your worried about being bored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Actually I don't think there are hardly any trails in Sedona that are beginner friendly. Bell Rock pathway maybe. My answer would be that if it's too dumbed down then ride it faster. Either way, that's what's in the Proposed Action so that's what's getting built. It's a stacked loop system. Whatever they build close to the Cultural Center will be the beginner loop. But hey, call it what you want. Makes no difference to me.

    How surprising of you to end your treatise with a question. The Heart Trail will also be a class III non-motorized multi-use trail. It drops almost 2000' in less than 4 miles at 4 to 7% grade. We'll be sure to work in some natural terrain features and rock for you to play on in case your worried about being bored.
    Rockman thanks for that update on the Heart Trail. At my age I am just happy to be able to still pedal my bike, so I doubt I will be bored. You have to admit that some people aren't going to be happy that the original Heart concept is going to be dramatically changed to a beginner/intermediate trail with several advanced features. I have to chuckle about all the heat I would get previously for doing a few trail improvements on an advanced/expert trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Rockman thanks for that update on the Heart Trail. At my age I am just happy to be able to still pedal my bike, so I doubt I will be bored. You have to admit that some people aren't going to be happy that the original Heart concept is going to be dramatically changed to a beginner/intermediate trail with several advanced features. I have to chuckle about all the heat I would get previously for doing a few trail improvements on an advanced/expert trail.
    I think it will still be an advanced trail and built to the same standard as Little Bear. I'd hardly send a beginner on that. There are indeed some local mtn bikers that are not too happy that their techy, raw, eroded backcountry trail is changing. More complaints, however, have been voiced by the hiking community. Whatever, the FS wanted to bring it up to a more sustainable alignment so that's what is being done. Can't make everyone happy. Some folks just don't like change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Actually I don't think there are hardly any trails in Sedona that are beginner friendly. Bell Rock pathway maybe. My answer would be that if it's too dumbed down then ride it faster. Either way, that's what's in the Proposed Action so that's what's getting built. It's a stacked loop system. Whatever they build close to the Cultural Center will be the beginner loop. But hey, call it what you want. Makes no difference to me.

    How surprising of you to end your treatise with a question. The Heart Trail will also be a class III non-motorized multi-use trail. It drops almost 2000' in less than 4 miles at 4 to 7% grade. We'll be sure to work in some natural terrain features and rock for you to play on in case your worried about being bored.
    The Heart Trail drops probably around 1500 to 1700 vertical in about 4.5 miles. From the top of the Catwalk to the bottom of the newly rerouted western section of Little Elden will be just over 2k of vert in a distance of somewhere around 6.5 miles, maybe 7.

    The Little Elden reroute goal was to create a more beginner friendly trail but still interesting enough for more advanced riders. It's nothing crazy but it's pretty entertaining imho. The Heart Trail I'm guessing would be more of a solid intermediate to upper level intermediate but it will ride very fast in the down hill direction with huge sight lines and some exposure along the very steep hill sides. Although it may not be the most technically challenging ride in Flag I would call it speed tech. I like speed tech. It will also create one of the longest continuously flowing rides in Flagstaff. There's some flattish sections and some xc but there isn't any grinding up steep stuff for the whole length, or at least that's the goal.

    The noise from the hiking "community" is likely from the same 3 or 4 people that we hear this sort of thing from with every and any proposal we discuss. Overall the new alignment will make a lot of people super happy whether hiking, riding bikes or horseback riding.

  31. #31
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    ^^^To RA's point, I just read the results of the Flagstaff community survey on trails and it was clear there were just a handful of very vocal, disgruntled hikers who see mountain bikers as "ungodly, unethical, rude" individuals....and that's a quote from one of the contributors. Overall however, the comments were generally positive and I can't imagine those very vocal individuals sway this ecosystem much moving into the future.

    https://www.flagstaff.az.gov/3284/Fl...peak_democracy




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    Since Switchblade hijacked his own thread and turned it into a Flagstaff thread we might as well keep it there. How ironic but here's some info on the PROCESS at hand.

    There were 500+ general comments on the Flagstaff Trails Initiative Survey and 1273 comments that are divided into Concern, Success, and Opportunity categories. As might be expected the major area of concern is the Dry Lake Hills and what to do with the social trails. The final tally is 530+ miles of social trails in the Flagstaff area. More on that later. We're currently making sense of the 'Concern' category which applies to many of the comments about Heart Trail. Success and Opportunity are much easier to bin into established categories for use in guiding trail planning.

    Here's a simple tally of how the categories for Opportunity shakes out. Of particular interest is how many folks want easier trails. Not many:

    Count Category
    Access 25
    Connectivity 76
    Connectivity - FUTS 37
    Connectivity - to outlying 12
    Education 3
    Events 2
    Improvement 30
    Information 8
    Maintenance 16
    More trails 111
    More trails - challenging 10
    More trails - commuter 10
    More trails - downhill 12
    More trails - easy 4
    More trails - equestrian 2
    More trails - flow 8
    More trails - hiking 5
    More trails - loops 22
    More trails - moto 13
    More trails - mtn bike 5
    More trails - skills park 3
    More trails - Snowbowl 7
    More trails - uphill 4
    More trails - winter 2
    None 18
    Other 21
    Peaks Loop 20
    Signing 22
    Social trails - adopt 65
    Social trails - decommission 12
    Trailhead 21

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    ra that sounds like a worthy project. Hopefully it fits into a worthy loop scenario for a large group of people who enjoy riding Mt. Elden. The new Girdner trail will definitely be popular with a large segment of people riding in Sedona. It will be interesting how riders get back to their original starting points if they do the whole five mile plus trail. I know how I would get back, but I donít think that route will be publicized.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    ra that sounds like a worthy project. Hopefully it fits into a worthy loop scenario for a large group of people who enjoy riding Mt. Elden. The new Girdner trail will definitely be popular with a large segment of people riding in Sedona. It will be interesting how riders get back to their original starting points if they do the whole five mile plus trail. I know how I would get back, but I donít think that route will be publicized.
    Look at the map you posted above. You get back on the rerouted Western Civ and L. Frontier trails. Or, the new one that bisects the area and is being called Inner Limits(?).

    Anyhow, back to Flagstaff. We have a new District Ranger! His background is Recreation rather than fuels reduction and fire suppression. This is HUGE.

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    Rockman the trail name you are referring to is Upper Necessity. That is an old historic equestrian trail that was used to maintain the cattle fences in the Western Civilization area around the historic homestead at the base of Cockscomb. The trails emanating from the homestead provide a valuable network of trails to navigate near Girdner.

    Maybe in the next ten years or so the FS will understand the value of using those trails to expand the 30 miles of proposed Western Gateway trails. It seems with Jennifer being gone the new folks are much more progressive minded. Only time will tell what the PROCESS will provide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Rockman the trail name you are referring to is Upper Necessity. That is an old historic equestrian trail that was used to maintain the cattle fences in the Western Civilization area around the historic homestead at the base of Cockscomb. The trails emanating from the homestead provide a valuable network of trails to navigate near Girdner.

    Maybe in the next ten years or so the FS will understand the value of using those trails to expand the 30 miles of proposed Western Gateway trails. It seems with Jennifer being gone the new folks are much more progressive minded. Only time will tell what the PROCESS will provide.
    They don't have a name for it yet but it goes all the way up (or down) Tim's Wash to tie into Plumber's Crack. Guess they'll re-name that too.

    Not sure why you think they will eventually expand the network to more than 30 miles. Seems plenty crammed into that area. When is enough enough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    They don't have a name for it yet but it goes all the way up (or down) Tim's Wash to tie into Plumber's Crack. Guess they'll re-name that too.

    Not sure why you think they will eventually expand the network to more than 30 miles. Seems plenty crammed into that area. When is enough enough?
    Ok I get what you are talking about. I think you are talking about the new proposed trail that drops down from Easy Rider to the exit of Timís Wash into Dry Creek Wash. I think they are temporally calling that Timís Trail.

    It is a worthy concept if it is routed in a easy climbable manner to mimic the new Girdner reroute trail. Currently the Girdner trail above the new reoute towards the Once Cultural Center is an advanced climbing trail. Hopefully the new proposed Timís trail will allow an intermediate climbing trail in character to the Girdner reroute.

    As far as having another 20 miles or so of new trails out in the Dry Creek area it would be wonderful for the mountain bike and hiking community. We both know the footprint of a well laid out trail is very small and when much of the new 20 miles would be in existing washes like Christmas and New Years there isnít any actual construction. The part out of the washes could be laid out on existing historical equestrian trails, that were used to move open range cows through the Dry Creek area.

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    Yes and no. It crosses Dry Creek and eventually ties into Rupp. The current crossing and section of Last Frontier will be closed and naturalized. It doesn't look to me like they are keeping Easy Rider although my guess is locals will keep it open.

    Rather than seeing the District push in another 20 miles into the same footprint personally I'd rather see them move on to other concepts. For example, a directional flow trail off House Mountain to Page Springs. Wouldn't that be cool. Or, a trail from Turkey Creek along the top of House Mountain to 179, cross that and loop around on Skull Mesa. Lots of other places to consider trails (or leave alone). There was also talk of doing improvements on Hot Loop.

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    " a directional flow trail off House Mountain to Page Springs"


    That area begs for that, I hope to see it in my lifetime.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

    It ain't supposed to be easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    " a directional flow trail off House Mountain to Page Springs"


    That area begs for that, I hope to see it in my lifetime.
    Not really sure about "flow" trail, that brings thoughts of a red sidewalk with berms. How bout just a well built trail in the shadow of the old house mountain route toward beverhead flat rd?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Not really sure about "flow" trail, that brings thoughts of a red sidewalk with berms. How bout just a well built trail in the shadow of the old house mountain route toward beverhead flat rd?
    How about just a trail and we can argue about what it looks like later?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Yes and no. It crosses Dry Creek and eventually ties into Rupp. The current crossing and section of Last Frontier will be closed and naturalized. It doesn't look to me like they are keeping Easy Rider although my guess is locals will keep it open.

    Rather than seeing the District push in another 20 miles into the same footprint personally I'd rather see them move on to other concepts. For example, a directional flow trail off House Mountain to Page Springs. Wouldn't that be cool. Or, a trail from Turkey Creek along the top of House Mountain to 179, cross that and loop around on Skull Mesa. Lots of other places to consider trails (or leave alone). There was also talk of doing improvements on Hot Loop.
    Rockman those are really great IDEAS. Since I choose to live in a more realist world. I will stick with the historic equestrian trails and you can ask the Waltons for more grant money to build those CONCEPTS you would like to see. I
    am curious when all the Western Gateway trails will be done, like I am curious when the Heart trail will be completed.

    It good to hear that there is a new District Ranger in Flagstaff who might be more inclined to look favorably towards mountain biking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Rockman those are really great IDEAS. Since I choose to live in a more realist world. I will stick with the historic equestrian trails and you can ask the Waltons for more grant money to build those CONCEPTS you would like to see. I
    am curious when all the Western Gateway trails will be done, like I am curious when the Heart trail will be completed.

    It good to hear that there is a new District Ranger in Flagstaff who might be more inclined to look favorably towards mountain biking.
    Next summer for Heart Trail. And hopefully we'll have 20+ miles of trail to build in 2020. And maybe a new President. What a country!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    How about just a trail and we can argue about what it looks like later?
    Works.👌🏿

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