Sedona Mountain Bikers Show-up for Trail Improvements on Munds Wagon Trail- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Sedona Mountain Bikers Show-up for Trail Improvements on Munds Wagon Trail

    Today over 20 plus volunteers showed up for some much needed maintenance and trail improvements on the well known Munds Wagon Trail. Fat Tire Bike shop sponsored the event and provided a lunch barbecue and beer for those who stopped to take a break for lunch.

    Myself and three other volunteers were able to improve five previously unrideable uphill sections that I and many lesser skilled riders were previously unable to climb without dabbing or having to walk.

    As usual there was a group of highly skilled riders who rode through one of the new improved section that weren't happy about the improvement. It is always fun to see those unhappy riders ride through.

    Many thanks to the FS crew Justin and Mike for showing up with tools and protective gear to help us with the project. Justin actually stayed with Wes and I after his shift was over and helped us with the last trail improvement at the end of the long slickrock section. He actually allowed us to use two of the rockjails along a re-routed section for material necessary to complete our final project.

    TD

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    Reason #1 why I rarely want to ride Sedona any longer... The drive. Reason #2... The riding no longer makes the drive worth it. I took a chance a few weeks back and rode the hogs and was amazed at how boring the trail had become. It used to have so many small features and technical areas that I was always on my toes. Now it has 3. One step up, a rock feature and a small techy climb. Everything else has been flattened and made accessible to a few riders who will one day wonder what progression is. But this thread is not about the hogs. It's about a trail that in March, I was severely disappointed due to the level of leveling it had endured and have thus decided I will likely not go until the "fixing" stops. Not only will I not go, but when my rich riding buddies want to go to Sedona and spend some bucks, I explain why I choose not to. They will still go but eventually all of them will see that the riding has been friggin lowest common denominatored to the point that they too will take their burrito and bike shop money elsewhere. Ever since I moved back to phx. my riding has improved and my technical skills have gotten better all because the trails I love have not changed in the 7 years I have been riding. At first I thought your work was helpful and necessary but now I pray you stay in Sedona and leave the rest of the world alone. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pwrtrainer View Post
    Reason #1 why I rarely want to ride Sedona any longer... The drive. Reason #2... The riding no longer makes the drive worth it. I took a chance a few weeks back and rode the hogs and was amazed at how boring the trail had become. It used to have so many small features and technical areas that I was always on my toes. Now it has 3. One step up, a rock feature and a small techy climb. Everything else has been flattened and made accessible to a few riders who will one day wonder what progression is. But this thread is not about the hogs. It's about a trail that in March, I was severely disappointed due to the level of leveling it had endured and have thus decided I will likely not go until the "fixing" stops. Not only will I not go, but when my rich riding buddies want to go to Sedona and spend some bucks, I explain why I choose not to. They will still go but eventually all of them will see that the riding has been friggin lowest common denominatored to the point that they too will take their burrito and bike shop money elsewhere. Ever since I moved back to phx. my riding has improved and my technical skills have gotten better all because the trails I love have not changed in the 7 years I have been riding. At first I thought your work was helpful and necessary but now I pray you stay in Sedona and leave the rest of the world alone. If it ain't broke don't fix it!
    p:

    Thanks for your post. Since you are among the higher skilled riders you are much better off not visiting Sedona for it's dumbed down mountain biking. In order to compete with other mountain biking destinations some of us have decided to improve the trails so we can ride them with the majority of our friends and spouses.

    For people with your skill level we do have a number of trails you would enjoy (Skid Mark, Taint, Transcept, Sick Rock, Blue Dot, Tomahawk, Christmas Wash, New Years Wash and Tim's Wash), but you can't ride them because the super skilled group that rides them are probably not going to show them to you. They probably don't hang out on MTBR, so they aren't going to hook up with you. They are also elitists that are not willing to show their secret stash with outsiders.

    I wouldn't mind pointing them out to you, but I am a old wimpy rider and am not interested in riding all of them with you. I certainly would enjoy watching you ride a few and would love to do a video of you if you are interested in giving Sedona one more chance.

    Thanks for your honesty.

    TD

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    Here we go again.

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    Pwrtrainer's response isn't all that surprising considering the tone of the OP. Doc is baiting those who dislike sanitation and yet at the same time doing a trailwork service announcement. What gives? Were the "highly skilled riders" that disapproved of the work riding up or down? Wasn't most of the work being conducted above the cowpies where most of the traffic is downhill and shuttled?

    I suspect there was more maintenance and adding features to improve the quality of "the ride". After all, the organizer of the trail day is an ex-pro downhiller and no doubt many of the volunteers are like-minded as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Pwrtrainer's response isn't all that surprising considering the tone of the OP. Doc is baiting those who dislike sanitation and yet at the same time doing a trailwork service announcement. What gives? Were the "highly skilled riders" that disapproved of the work riding up or down? Wasn't most of the work being conducted above the cowpies where most of the traffic is downhill and shuttled?

    I suspect there was more maintenance and adding features to improve the quality of "the ride". After all, the organizer of the trail day is an ex-pro downhiller and no doubt many of the volunteers are like-minded as well.
    rock:

    I am not sure about the work that was done with the organizer's crew (twenty or more volunteers) that worked exclusively above the Cow Pies parking area. I worked with three other volunteers and Justin below Cow Pies where the trail crosses the rode.

    My goal in the work we did was to make Cow Pies rideable in the uphill direction to provide a better user experience for riders of my skill level. Actually we were unable to get all the work done because we ran out of day light and Justin was working on overtime and wanted the Forest Service tools back so he could go home.

    I have no clue what Fat Tire Dave's crew got accomplished with the twenty plus other volunteers. I would assume as rockman eluded that they made numerous improvements uphill from Cow Pies that a downhill racer would be smiling from ear to ear about. It will be interesting if we get a report from Dave on what that group got accomplished.

    Lastly the highly skilled rider from Flagstaff that wasn't happy was in some kind of race. The riders had white pie plates attached to their handle bars and had that very fit look that Flag riders have. Actually some of them (the cute girls) said they thought the work being done was "nicely done". They were probably lying, but I took the compliment anyway.

    It will be interesting if a higher percentage of hardcore riders who ride Hangover and Damifino will that Munds uphill now, or they will still stick to the rode. I look forward to some feedback from some of those uphill riders that thought that climb sucked previously.

    Actually one of the unrideable lines may be left by the FS. We asked them to leave it in tact, but who knows if they will listen to us.

    TD

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    some do;but most don't

    Trail Work that is.

    Hey Doc; I commend you and the Fat Tire crew for doing that work; its great to see people trying to 'improve' trails in their area; generally improving trails for most of the people, most of the time. And, while top riders may bemoan grooming, it behoves them to get off their bikes and do some building themselves....building trails that are really techy etc..............and then sign them, including a 'do not groom' notice. Otherwise, as you state, the techy trails are kept secret, and progression is thwarted. We've started doing that here in Merritt BC, and it will work well for us as time goes on.

    But, as for Sedona riding, you have a great trail sysyem; with a wonderful diversity (and progression) of trails; and while I'm not a top rider, there is plenty of gnarly stuff for me in Sedona. Better than most of the stuff in BC; and with your fantastic scenery to boot; eh! I look forward to my annual trip there soon; and to riding with you Doc, and, of course, helping you with some building and maintenance also.

    I hope pwrtrainer accepts your invitation to see what Sedona really has at the top end; and I'd like to there to see him ride Xmas Wash etc. Seeing great riders in action is always sweet.

    Thanks for the tremendous efforts you continue to make on behalf of Sedona mountainbiking; and mountainbiking in general. Guys like us, well over sixty, can lead the way; showing the younger folks that good riding and good building and maintenance go hand in hand; and benefit all riders in the long run.

    See you about Nov 22 Doc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TransitionSenior View Post
    Trail Work that is.

    Hey Doc; I commend you and the Fat Tire crew for doing that work; its great to see people trying to 'improve' trails in their area; generally improving trails for most of the people, most of the time. And, while top riders may bemoan grooming, it behoves them to get off their bikes and do some building themselves....building trails that are really techy etc..............and then sign them, including a 'do not groom' notice. Otherwise, as you state, the techy trails are kept secret, and progression is thwarted. We've started doing that here in Merritt BC, and it will work well for us as time goes on.

    But, as for Sedona riding, you have a great trail sysyem; with a wonderful diversity (and progression) of trails; and while I'm not a top rider, there is plenty of gnarly stuff for me in Sedona. Better than most of the stuff in BC; and with your fantastic scenery to boot; eh! I look forward to my annual trip there soon; and to riding with you Doc, and, of course, helping you with some building and maintenance also.

    I hope pwrtrainer accepts your invitation to see what Sedona really has at the top end; and I'd like to there to see him ride Xmas Wash etc. Seeing great riders in action is always sweet.

    Thanks for the tremendous efforts you continue to make on behalf of Sedona mountainbiking; and mountainbiking in general. Guys like us, well over sixty, can lead the way; showing the younger folks that good riding and good building and maintenance go hand in hand; and benefit all riders in the long run.

    See you about Nov 22 Doc.
    TS:

    Thanks for the kind words. After pwrtainers post I was feeling maybe I had gotten off track in my mission to make Sedona a great place to ride for 70% or more of the worldwide mountain biking community. The hardcore mountain biking community is normally the same group that Fat Tire Dave says are looking for trail information and internet access w/o spending a nickel in his shop.

    I have tried to provide that group with good trail maps they can obtain on the internet along with loop ideas for advanced riders that might get their interest. I am attaching a Word file that might give some riders an idea of some riding ideas that might be helpful when they get tired of their normal ride.

    Dave has built a good reputation with a select group of riders that love the products he sells and service he provides, along with a nice selection of HD and Mojos to rent

    TD.

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    the big picture

    Personally, I don't consider what TD does as "sanitation" or dumbing down trails. I doubt that pwrtrnr would disagree if he knew which improvment to put his finger on that TD had a hand in. On the other hand, the dumbing down on the Hogs that he is referring to was the work of the USF. TD, please correct me if I'm wrong.

    If so, that (and also other examples like the work on Broken Arrow) reflects the management intent of maintaining a standard for system trails as well as user-built trails in the Sedona system as class 3 or even 4. Thus, the design parameters (width, grade, turn radius, etc.) require that "obstacles may be common, but not substantial or intended to provide challenge." Source: http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/prog...05_01_2011.pdf

    The work on Broken Arrow or even lower Mund's Wagon needs to be class 3 based on the use the USF is managing for. However, many of the off the grid trails that many of us find challenging and special are under consideration by the Red Rock District for adoption. When that happens it will be up to the the major players like TD, Phil, or Fat Tire Dave to emphasize the importance of preserving the challenging aspects and nature of these trails. You know who they are, class 1 or 2 type trails: Highline, Hangover, Damifino, Mescal, Special Ed, etc). These trails became popular in part because they met a demand not addressed experientially by the rest of the designated trail system (ie., class 3 or 4). Can't we have both?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Personally, I don't consider what TD does as "sanitation" or dumbing down trails. I doubt that pwrtrnr would disagree if he knew which improvment to put his finger on that TD had a hand in. On the other hand, the dumbing down on the Hogs that he is referring to was the work of the USF. TD, please correct me if I'm wrong.

    If so, that (and also other examples like the work on Broken Arrow) reflects the management intent of maintaining a standard for system trails as well as user-built trails in the Sedona system as class 3 or even 4. Thus, the design parameters (width, grade, turn radius, etc.) require that "obstacles may be common, but not substantial or intended to provide challenge." Source: http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/prog...05_01_2011.pdf

    The work on Broken Arrow or even lower Mund's Wagon needs to be class 3 based on the use the USF is managing for. However, many of the off the grid trails that many of us find challenging and special are under consideration by the Red Rock District for adoption. When that happens it will be up to the the major players like TD, Phil, or Fat Tire Dave to emphasize the importance of preserving the challenging aspects and nature of these trails. You know who they are, class 1 or 2 type trails: Highline, Hangover, Damifino, Mescal, Special Ed, etc). These trails became popular in part because they met a demand not addressed experientially by the rest of the designated trail system (ie., class 3 or 4). Can't we have both?
    rock:

    Thanks for educating MTBR viewers on the realities of working with the FS. As for the work done on the Hogs there are a very few people even qualified to do those kind of improvements and me and the FS don't meet the qualification (experience) to do those improvements.

    I think the girl who did them has a boy friend who can't ride as well as her and she decided to lower the pucker factor slightly to allow her boyfriend to ride it with her. My wife of 58 rides it with me and I personally am uncomfortable with her riding several sections, but so far she has escaped crashing and being injured.

    I am curiuos how Mrs. Rockman enjoys that ride?

    I took ten Easteners on it last week and they really enjoyed it. They must have been part of that 70% group. One guy in the group crashed on that off camber upper section on Hog Heaven while videoing the ride. He had a wierd crash where when his front wheel hit the bottom of the drop he went over the bars to the left of the drop. He did a BIG roll into the brush to the left and needed to be pulled out by a fellow rider. Fortunately he was uninjured. It would be a nice crash video since he survived w/o injury.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    Thanks for educating MTBR viewers on the realities of working with the FS. As for the work done on the Hogs there are a very few people even qualified to do those kind of improvements and me and the FS don't meet the qualification (experience) to do those improvements.

    I think the girl who did them has a boy friend who can't ride as well as her and she decided to lower the pucker factor slightly to allow her boyfriend to ride it with her. My wife of 58 rides it with me and I personally am uncomfortable with her riding several sections, but so far she has escaped crashing and being injured.

    I am curiuos how Mrs. Rockman enjoys that ride?

    I took ten Easteners on it last week and they really enjoyed it. They must have been part of that 70% group. One guy in the group crashed on that off camber upper section on Hog Heaven while videoing the ride. He had a wierd crash where when his front wheel hit the bottom of the drop he went over the bars to the left of the drop. He did a BIG roll into the brush to the left and needed to be pulled out by a fellow rider. Fortunately he was uninjured. It would be a nice crash video since he survived w/o injury.

    TD
    Wait, you build and maintain trails for 70% of all mountain bikers? Let's Occupy Sedona!!!!!!!!!
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    Thanks for educating MTBR viewers on the realities of working with the FS. As for the work done on the Hogs there are a very few people even qualified to do those kind of improvements and me and the FS don't meet the qualification (experience) to do those improvements.

    I think the girl who did them has a boy friend who can't ride as well as her and she decided to lower the pucker factor slightly to allow her boyfriend to ride it with her. My wife of 58 rides it with me and I personally am uncomfortable with her riding several sections, but so far she has escaped crashing and being injured.

    I am curiuos how Mrs. Rockman enjoys that ride?

    I took ten Easteners on it last week and they really enjoyed it. They must have been part of that 70% group. One guy in the group crashed on that off camber upper section on Hog Heaven while videoing the ride. He had a wierd crash where when his front wheel hit the bottom of the drop he went over the bars to the left of the drop. He did a BIG roll into the brush to the left and needed to be pulled out by a fellow rider. Fortunately he was uninjured. It would be a nice crash video since he survived w/o injury.

    TD
    Mrs. Rockman of 47 has no issue with the Hogs with the exception of two techy spots. The hard right onto the rock rollover on HOH and the rock drop dealio on Hog Heaven. I see most riders (also in the 70%) walk those two spots. But pwrtrnr wasn't referring to the Hogs. I presume it was BA that has drawn his ire but it could also be the work Justin did in lower Munds?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Mrs. Rockman of 47 has no issue with the Hogs with the exception of two techy spots. The hard right onto the rock rollover on HOH and the rock drop dealio on Hog Heaven. I see most riders (also in the 70%) walk those two spots. But pwrtrnr wasn't referring to the Hogs. I presume it was BA that has drawn his ire but it could also be the work Justin did in lower Munds?
    Original quote by pwrtrainer "The riding no longer makes the drive worth it. I took a chance a few weeks back and rode the hogs and was amazed at how boring the trail had become."

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    Original quote by pwrtrainer "The riding no longer makes the drive worth it. I took a chance a few weeks back and rode the hogs and was amazed at how boring the trail had become."
    Yes, but followed by: "But this thread is not about the hogs. It's about a trail that in March, I was severely disappointed due to the level of leveling it had endured and have thus decided I will likely not go until the "fixing" stops."

    I suspect BA but to be honest I thought Justin's work was damn good. I really like the idea of gargoyles to pinch the trail and keep riders on the tread rather than riding around things like roots and widening the trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I was severely disappointed due to the level of leveling it had endured and have thus decided I will likely not go until the "fixing" stops."

    I suspect BA but to be honest I thought Justin's work was damn good. I really like the idea of gargoyles to pinch the trail and keep riders on the tread rather than riding around things like roots and widening the trail.
    rock:

    It will be interesting if you are correct. I also like the narrowing done on Broken Arrow, but I don't think that had as a high priority as other improvements that could be made on system trails, like the impossible climb up Little Horse about halfway between Bell Rock Pathway and Chicken Point.

    I like helping the FS on projects that serve my interest directly such as the Munds project. As I told Justin I can take an ownership interest into the sections I personally worked on.

    I am looking forward to seeing what the other volunteers got done.

    TD

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    I think I'm starting to see some separation in types of riders here. There is this old school and very accomplished type that really like trails kept old school and sort of awkward technical and there is a more new school set that likes the multi use trails more bike friendly and flow-y. The truth is all sets are technically good riders but are seeking a different experience and that is all good. Trails that are built with options can actually suit all of these different interest. So..........chill everyone. If you really want those super old school trails that were obviously built by hikers and equestrians I am sure there are plenty but PLEASE don't ruin this for the rest of us looking for trails that are built to actually be multi use or specific use type trails. We are seeing BIG things happen here in the north land of AZ and I think it's a shame that some are naysaying the great efforts that are being put forth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I think I'm starting to see some separation in types of riders here. There is this old school and very accomplished type that really like trails kept old school and sort of awkward technical and there is a more new school set that likes the multi use trails more bike friendly and flow-y. The truth is all sets are technically good riders but are seeking a different experience and that is all good. Trails that are built with options can actually suit all of these different interest. So..........chill everyone. If you really want those super old school trails that were obviously built by hikers and equestrians I am sure there are plenty but PLEASE don't ruin this for the rest of us looking for trails that are built to actually be multi use or specific use type trails. We are seeing BIG things happen here in the north land of AZ and I think it's a shame that some are naysaying the great efforts that are being put forth.
    RA, I'm chill as well as the doc. We're just discussin'. Besides I think you're missing the point. I don't think anyone wants "those super old school trails that were obviously built by hikers and equestrians".

    I also don't see evidence in the current management plan for "specific use type trails" in the Red Rock District. Maybe in the Peaks District but do you see that happening in Sedona?

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    this kinda reminds me of the old high-school arguments dividing up different 'leagues" of metal-heads based upon speed and intricacy of the guitar work. I never really cared if cannibal corpse could play faster than def leppard

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    ^^^ LMAO

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    RA, I'm chill as well as the doc. We're just discussin'. Besides I think you're missing the point. I don't think anyone wants "those super old school trails that were obviously built by hikers and equestrians".

    I also don't see evidence in the current management plan for "specific use type trails" in the Red Rock District. Maybe in the Peaks District but do you see that happening in Sedona?
    It wasn't aimed at you or TD. It was aimed at the naysayers that sound like they are terrified by any change that happens. Change is often good yall.

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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Stupid phone

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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    To clarify, my original reply began with a reference to the hogs. And that was simply to illustrate a point. I wanted to create an idea as a reference that could help other riders of the same caliber of skill have a context. I'm not some amazingly skilled rider with wings of gold who seeks to ride the unreadable. I'm a weekend warrior who loves really tough sections to kill the monotony. I like to feel like I accomplished something after each ride. Last time I rode in Sedona I left feeling as though I had simply met a quota. I am not going to seek out people to show me the goods. I just want to go for a ride and not fear something has changed. I had a sweet route that started on broken arrow, down little horse to ht to slim shady to h___e to Baldwin to templeton and back to the start after I threw in the hogs for good measure. It took about 3 hours, gave me a workout and tested my skill and made me happy. Hogs has changed though and the part that gets me is that the sections that were LCD'd were sections that didn't need that. If someone couldn't ride that spot, why not go ride Baldwin? Same amount of time, better view, and you can feel good knowing you only walked a few spots and didn't have to modify anything. My problem is with broken fixes. There are spots on the hogs that need fixing. There are ruts, blowouts, and turns that need work but what gets fixed? A few small stepups a nice roller and a bunch of other spots that now are "safer." There is the context for what I have seen on munds as well. BA is perfect now. But I guarantee someone will start to dislike the tough section about halfway up and petition for some LCD time.

    I welcome change as much as the next guy, but making a trail that is known for it's difficulty easier is a lot like grading on a curve. It may help you make the grade but everyone knows it wasn't earned. If you truly feel as though the work was necessary due to sustainability then more power to you. But you always post up here touting your humble actions that make 70% of the world love you but alienate the other 30. You literally ask for it on a frequent basis, for someone to call you out so you can go on some self righteous tyrade about how what you do is a service. Well for some it may be but for many it's not. Just know that each time you post up about trail work 99% of us likely anticipate reading about how you have LCD'd someones favorite trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    RA, I'm chill as well as the doc. We're just discussin'. Besides I think you're missing the point. I don't think anyone wants "those super old school trails that were obviously built by hikers and equestrians".

    I also don't see evidence in the current management plan for "specific use type trails" in the Red Rock District. Maybe in the Peaks District but do you see that happening in Sedona?
    What is Pigs Tail? Yes specific use trails will be happening everywhere or at least more bike built types of trails. It is not going away, folks want better built trails that can suit all uses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    What is Pigs Tail? Yes specific use trails will be happening everywhere or at least more bike built types of trails. It is not going away, folks want better built trails that can suit all uses.
    Ah yes, Pigtail. I stand corrected. I hope you're right RA. I guess my main query in this thread is whether there is room in the management plan for class 2 type trails. I'm specifically referring to the ones up for adoption.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pwrtrainer View Post
    To clarify, my original reply began with a reference to the hogs. And that was simply to illustrate a point. I wanted to create an idea as a reference that could help other riders of the same caliber of skill have a context. I'm not some amazingly skilled rider with wings of gold who seeks to ride the unreadable. I'm a weekend warrior who loves really tough sections to kill the monotony. I like to feel like I accomplished something after each ride. Last time I rode in Sedona I left feeling as though I had simply met a quota. I am not going to seek out people to show me the goods. I just want to go for a ride and not fear something has changed. I had a sweet route that started on broken arrow, down little horse to ht to slim shady to h___e to Baldwin to templeton and back to the start after I threw in the hogs for good measure. It took about 3 hours, gave me a workout and tested my skill and made me happy. Hogs has changed though and the part that gets me is that the sections that were LCD'd were sections that didn't need that. If someone couldn't ride that spot, why not go ride Baldwin? Same amount of time, better view, and you can feel good knowing you only walked a few spots and didn't have to modify anything. My problem is with broken fixes. There are spots on the hogs that need fixing. There are ruts, blowouts, and turns that need work but what gets fixed? A few small stepups a nice roller and a bunch of other spots that now are "safer." There is the context for what I have seen on munds as well. BA is perfect now. But I guarantee someone will start to dislike the tough section about halfway up and petition for some LCD time.

    I welcome change as much as the next guy, but making a trail that is known for it's difficulty easier is a lot like grading on a curve. It may help you make the grade but everyone knows it wasn't earned. If you truly feel as though the work was necessary due to sustainability then more power to you. But you always post up here touting your humble actions that make 70% of the world love you but alienate the other 30. You literally ask for it on a frequent basis, for someone to call you out so you can go on some self righteous tyrade about how what you do is a service. Well for some it may be but for many it's not. Just know that each time you post up about trail work 99% of us likely anticipate reading about how you have LCD'd someones favorite trail.
    pw:

    Over the years I certainly know what to expect from my posts. You know what my goal is so I don't have to share it with you again.

    As far as the Hogs go I certainly know a little more history about the trail and what the original design was intended to do. First of all it was designed as a CLIMBING TRAIL where once you reached the saddle you would turn around and ride it downhill.

    Later it was routed over to Broken Arrow several hundred yards above the sinkhole, so we could ride up the trail and make it into a loop.

    Then the FS nuked the section from High on the Hog/Hog Heaven intersection over to Broken Arrow.

    Then the FS started to destroy all the build sections on Hog Heaven which made the trail unrideable uphill, but still downhill.

    Then High on the Hog was added to be able to have a route to the current start of Hog Heaven, so we could at least ride Hog Heaven downhill and loop it to Broken Arrow, because it was now impossible to ride it uphill.

    Then it was rebuilt so it could again be ridden uphill.

    Then it was destroyed again so it couldn't be ridden totally in either direction.

    Then some Pakistani trail builders were hired to cut the trail into the cliff band in areas that need a trail tread to ride on in the downhill direction.

    Then after a couple years it was rebuilt with the original intent of being able to ride it uphill to the saddle.

    So that is the current status. Unfortunately for those that want to ride it uphill it is ALL MOST IMPOSSIBLE.

    When I was younger I use to enjoy the uphill challenge of Hog Heaven, now I am a downhill guy 99% of the time.

    Hope that clears up what is going on with Hog Heaven.

    There was never any problem with High on the Hog because there is no rock build section to destroy. It is very difficult to decommission a route. The only thing you can do is cut down trees and block it, like they did on Hog Heaven. If you ever ride Hog Heaven again which it doesn't seem like you will ever do, you will see a lot of big now dead trees on the downhill edge of the trail.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Ah yes, Pigtail. I stand corrected. I hope you're right RA. I guess my main query in this thread is whether there is room in the management plan for class 2 type trails. I'm specifically referring to the ones up for adoption.
    rockman:

    I don't know if it is still the case but when the new Pigtail sign was posted it was also posted with a sticker indicating the trail was intended for biking and equestrian use. I would also assume it can be used by hikers.

    I don't think the trail designer was happy about that equestrian signage, but it is the price one has to pay for getting a new more user specific trail.

    TD

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    I am afraid I don't have time to read all these posts, I did start, and it was interesting as it seemed to reflect something that is going on in my backyard on a smaller scale right now. I live right on the Tortolitas N of Tucson, and the trail system was originally built by hikers for mostly hikers. The City is starting to build and develop trails that are more biker friendly, and I am starting to get involved in the actual building and maintenance. The newer trails are mostly rideable by a good intermediate rider, but the older ones have features that will have most people who are not from other galaxy systems off their bikes for short sections. I stress 'short' sections, and these get shorter as skills improve. Some people have been sanitising parts on their own, chipping rocks down, placing cheater rocks, filling in cracks etc. and in places it does make the trail more enjoyable, but I do miss the challenge of mastering a new techy bit after a lot of work to do it. The problem is that obviously not everyone enjoys the same thing. I think one answer is, and forgive me if this has been mentioned previously, an agreed ratio of trail miles should be left unsanitised, (agreed by involved user/builder groups).

    The key is that ALL users need to be involved if they wish to 'buy' the right to *****. Keeping some trails as more private, 'locals only' trails is of course one way to ensure that trails remain as intended, and this has been going on for decades in all manner of outdoor pursuits. This will not change, neither do I think it necessarily should, if there is a good trail system to keep visitors happy. The only people that may lose out in this instance are the riders who come visit and cannot easily find anything commensurate to their skill level in the easily findable trails.

    Personally, I am just about to leave Tucson to go up to Sedona for 3 days, and this time I have bikes with me. Ostensibly this is a romantic getaway for the missus and me, but she has said she would like to go for an easy ride together, and I should be able to get out alone one time too... I was thinking of doing Munds Wagon and back around over Hangover and Damnifino... maybe I can cloud all this with my further 2c later on too!
    It's all Here. Now.

  28. #28
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    If I could ride every trail in Sedona without dabbing, I would want to go some place else to ride. The reason why I like to mountain bike is because it challenges me. Maybe I didn't make a technical climb today or maybe I decided not to take the big drop, but it gives me good reason to come back to that trail and try again.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    If I could ride every trail in Sedona without dabbing, I would want to go some place else to ride. The reason why I like to mountain bike is because it challenges me. Maybe I didn't make a technical climb today or maybe I decided not to take the big drop, but it gives me good reason to come back to that trail and try again.
    Heywoa:

    Do me a big favor. Please ride Munds Wagon from the Huckaby parking lot up to where it crosses the road above Merry Go Round. I assume you are going to ride 99.9% of the trail w/o dabbing, but there will be several sections that you might have to walk or dab. Take your camera along and take pictures where you either take a rest break, or have to walk or dab.

    I consider you be in the 70% group and I would like you to provide some Intel as to what that group can expect now that the trail has been DESTROYED. If you could at least ride up to the Cow Pies parking lot that would also be helpful.

    If anyone else wants to help with that project please let the rest of know how lame the ride has turned out to be.

    Thanks in advance,

    TD

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    Hey traildoc.... who the eff is the FS employee named Mike?!?!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TUNABOY View Post
    Hey traildoc.... who the eff is the FS employee named Mike?!?!?
    Tuna I apologize for referring to you as Mike I should have just stuck with Tuna for short. When will I know if I have to do a re-route of the re-route on Munds. I am not sleeping well these days worrying that you are going to jump trough my bedroom window and arrest me.

    At my age I need lots of sleep and living in fear all the time is not good for my health.

    TD

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    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Last edited by raisingarizona; 11-07-2011 at 09:40 AM.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TUNABOY View Post
    Hey traildoc.... who the eff is the FS employee named Mike?!?!?
    I dunno but I think I saw him riding with a small keg in place of his camelbak last week...
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

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    You don't have to worry traildoc. Im not the ticket writing flavor FS employee. To woahey... my camel back carries 8 beers. The trick is to pre shake the beer to get rid of most of the CO2 so the bladder does not pop. Cheers!!!!!

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    Another thing... when should I expect to see traildoc this week to help us dumb down chuck wagon? Im gonna take up the role of trails coordinator while Justin is gone temporarily. Remember to bring your camelbak cuz hydration is very important!

  36. #36
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    Tunaboy, I live here in the village, and would like to volunteer on any trail work days for work local to me -can you let me know if there are additional dates besides what Justin sent me? thanks in advance!

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