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  1. #1
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    Sedona Map Project 4-29-11

    I have been working on the GPS ing the Sedona MTB trail system and have been trying to get some feedback on what people are looking for in a Sedona Trail Map. Whenever I go on a ride I see a lot of Tourons using Cosmic Rays two sided plastic covered map, which at this point is somewhat out dated.

    These are some Google Terrain maps of my current project minus about ten trails ( Transep, Rabbit Ears, Ant Hill, Missing in Action, Lower Red Rock Loop Trail Scherman's, Lime Kiln, Color Cove, etc.). I like the look of Google Terrain and was wondering what others thought as compared to other formats. Besides not having the trail names included do you think these maps are helpful based on what is currently out there?

    The only way I know how to put in trail names is by using something like Paint or Publisher which would take ALFT (over 130 trail names) and would need to be done every time I updated the map.

    Scott at Topo Fusion said that I could put the trail name into TF as a waypoint which would be great because it would be permanent in the file, but I don't know what it would look like if I were to zoom in or out.

    Looking for your ideas and comments.

    TD
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Sedona Map Project 4-29-11-sedona-mtb-map-4-29-11.jpg  

    Sedona Map Project 4-29-11-sedona-broken-arrow-mtb-area-4-29-11.jpg  

    Sedona Map Project 4-29-11-sedona-cathedral-mtb-trail-area-4-29-11.jpg  

    Sedona Map Project 4-29-11-sedona-schnebly-road-mtb-area-4-29-11.jpg  

    Sedona Map Project 4-29-11-sedona-northern-mtb-map-4-29-11.jpg  


  2. #2
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    I'm somewhat oldschool, I guess. I don't have a GPS, but really like Dale's jpg files I can print (17 x 22) and take. AFAIK, I am somewhat limited by the size/resolution available on google terrain either that or learn a new way to take the map with me.

    So, the obvious question for me would be how do you get a "print out" of the google terrain in the area you are looking for? Because, the "AZSF something different" was quite a bit of fun.

  3. #3
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    For me, I like the idea of a GPX with way points like you said Mr. Morris suggested. I realize not everyone has a GPS, but when you're riding somewhere like Sedona a printed out map is pretty much worthless no matter the size or resolution because there are so many side trails, spurs, connectors, etc... I've found it's hard enough with a GPS.

    On this same note, I've really got to thank you TD for the GPS work you have already done. Aside from the people who you have personally guided, there are surely countless others who have been guided from your GPX tracks. The last several times I was up there I have used some of your tracks (sometimes also mixed together with rama and others to put together something custom for whatever reason) and I don't know how I would have done anything outside of Templeton, BRP, Little Horse, Broken Arrow, et al without them.

    I'm really looking forward to being able to download a All of Sedona Extravaganza of Goodness GPX.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonebone2000
    For me, I like the idea of a GPX with way points like you said Mr. Morris suggested. I realize not everyone has a GPS, but when you're riding somewhere like Sedona a printed out map is pretty much worthless no matter the size or resolution because there are so many side trails, spurs, connectors, etc... I've found it's hard enough with a GPS.

    On this same note, I've really got to thank you TD for the GPS work you have already done. Aside from the people who you have personally guided, there are surely countless others who have been guided from your GPX tracks. The last several times I was up there I have used some of your tracks (sometimes also mixed together with rama and others to put together something custom for whatever reason) and I don't know how I would have done anything outside of Templeton, BRP, Little Horse, Broken Arrow, et al without them.

    I'm really looking forward to being able to download a All of Sedona Extravaganza of Goodness GPX.

    Plus- if people have access to a GPX they can make whatever map they'd like! Whether that's an overlay on Google Maps Terrain, the Nat Geo maps like on Dale's site, or something else. You can use Google Earth to match up a map that you like with a GPX.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    The only way I know how to put in trail names is by using something like Paint or Publisher which would take ALFT (over 130 trail names) and would need to be done every time I updated the map.
    God help us all!!!! (That was a joke.)

    Have you considered using EpicRider's format, or even working with him to add them to his list. While note the most user friendly (read: Skinny-Tire friendly), they seem to be the defacto maps, at least for Phoenix.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    God help us all!!!! (That was a joke.)

    Have you considered using EpicRider's format, or even working with him to add them to his list. While note the most user friendly (read: Skinny-Tire friendly), they seem to be the defacto maps, at least for Phoenix.
    ST:

    I have tried to work with ER, but I get the feeling he is not really interested in sharing his hard work, so I kind of gave up and just decided to work on my own project and try and create a good work product that would be flexible enough to build any loop someone wanted to try out. The last time Dale updated his Sedona map seems to be Feb 2010, so I don't think he has the time to put into the project. He is probably working rather than being obsessed with the Sedona tourists mountain biking experience.

    Whenever I do a ride in Sedona people ask how long is the ride going to be or how far is it? I ask them how long do you want it to be? The reason I ask that is that most rides in Sedona are adjustable time wise. Like Dale said in his Fat Tire Festival post, they wanted to do Lama, but didn't have the time so they did Templeton back to VOC. They also could have done Easy Sleezy to up the teck level, so there are all kinds of senerios.

    I am creating all types of what I consider to be good loops in Everytrail.com so I have given the riding public what I consider to be something enjoyable, but I have not been able to figure out how to communicate the loop w/o using a GPS, since the FS doesn't allow signage of non-system trails. I don't even use a GPS to navigate so I am clueless as to how difficult it is with a unit like a Garmin 305, which I own.

    I am hoping that one day someone will develope an app that will give the rider a tone when they are off track by over X amount of distance. That way once you are on a trail you wouldn't have to watch a screen you could just keep riding on a visable trail until the unit started buzzing that you were off track.

    Fortunately I have lots of time to kill, so I will keep plugging along.

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 04-29-2011 at 05:02 PM.

  7. #7
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    TB2000 - agreed and I'm not saying I won't own one and software in the future.

    TD - killer work, and the trails which I have ridden with you have been a hoot, no matter what survey is out there. And, the occasional climb back up after a wrong turn isn't all that bad anyway...it's still ridding, on two wheels, on trails, what's not to like?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonebone2000
    For me, I like the idea of a GPX with way points like you said Mr. Morris suggested. I realize not everyone has a GPS, but when you're riding somewhere like Sedona a printed out map is pretty much worthless no matter the size or resolution because there are so many side trails, spurs, connectors, etc... I've found it's hard enough with a GPS.

    On this same note, I've really got to thank you TD for the GPS work you have already done. Aside from the people who you have personally guided, there are surely countless others who have been guided from your GPX tracks. The last several times I was up there I have used some of your tracks (sometimes also mixed together with rama and others to put together something custom for whatever reason) and I don't know how I would have done anything outside of Templeton, BRP, Little Horse, Broken Arrow, et al without them.

    I'm really looking forward to being able to download a All of Sedona Extravaganza of Goodness GPX.
    tb:

    Thanks for the response. I just put together a new Everytrail.com description of the 2011 Sedona Fat Tire Festival Sunday group ride. The Fat Tire ride we did was very similar to the AZSF ride, with several additional trails added to the ride for a more advanced ride. I also included two completed videos of the ride, with one more currently being saved for uploading later.

    Unfortunately you are correct about the navigating with any kind of map fomat or resolution. There are way too many intersections without a clue which trail it is. It would be nice to have at lest some kind of intersection marking to indicate if the intersecting trail is even rideable.

    TD

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    tb:

    Thanks for the response. I just put together a new Everytrail.com description of the 2011 Sedona Fat Tire Festival Sunday group ride. The Fat Tire ride we did was very similar to the AZSF ride, with several additional trails added to the ride for a more advanced ride. I also included two completed videos of the ride, with one more currently being saved for uploading later.

    Unfortunately you are correct about the navigating with any kind of map fomat or resolution. There are way too many intersections without a clue which trail it is. It would be nice to have at lest some kind of intersection marking to indicate if the intersecting trail is even rideable.

    TD
    Not sure when the last time it was that you updated your Google Maps, but if you use the My Maps app, you're not going to be able to do any more updates. End user mapping(uploading) now has to be done thru Fusion tables. Check this following link on a post I did.

    http://dirtypursuits.blogspot.com/20...me-fusion.html


    Even though you can't directly see descriptions on waypoints and tracks, you can click on a waypoint or track and get a balloon popup that will show the name of the object. Check this following map I have for the Hurricane, UT area. It may come up in normal street map mode. Just click the terrain button if needed. And, I agree, I like the terrain feature even more than Satellite view for first checking out an area.

    http://www.google.com/fusiontables/D...id=S1859414iey

    If you have an identical .gpx file to go with the .kml file that the Fusion map is based on, that will allow users to see the name/text of waypoints on a map when they view the .gpx in their mapping software. Also, at least in MapSource, you will see the track name pop up when you put the cursor over a track.

    Here is something of a design/concept you might want to consider. It's what I am working on at my site, Dirty Pursuits. Sedona is on my list, just haven't even started a page for it yet. And a lot that is only in a partial state of completion. But, check out this link to what I have for the Kaibab Plateau, it's the one destination that is essentially complete.

    http://sites.google.com/site/dirtypu.../kaibabplateau


    I'm heading out on Sunday for a trip thru AZ. Will be in Sedona on Sun, Mon and Tue. If you want to do something on Mon or Tue, let me know. Can do a ride, discuss and work on some of these technical issues.

    Sunday should be a Cathedral/Baldwin/Highline/LittleBear(unless I extend to Mystic and Broken Arrow)/Llama/ParkLoops ride. Just depends on how I feel after the drive down there.

    Mon or Tue will just climb up Schnebly and beyond and come down thru Munds, then go backpack up to the top of Bear Mtn for the night.

    So, still have a 3rd day to figure out what to do; just can't make up my mind, so...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookiedough
    And, the occasional climb back up after a wrong turn isn't all that bad anyway...it's still ridding, on two wheels, on trails, what's not to like?
    Haha...that is the worst feeling!! I like the way you put it though, I'll have to try thinking of it that way next time it happens.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Scott at Topo Fusion said that I could put the trail name into TF as a waypoint which would be great because it would be permanent in the file, but I don't know what it would look like if I were to zoom in or out.
    This looks like a real cool project!

    Using Topofusion's waypoints to name the trails sounds like a good idea. The size of the waypoint name remains static when you zoom in or out. See the two TF screenshots below. I pulled your GPX from Everytrail, loaded into Topofusion and added the two waypoints.

    There are several options within TF to change the look of the waypoints. For example you can do things change the point size and background color. See the third screenshot.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Sedona Map Project 4-29-11-zoomout.jpg  

    Sedona Map Project 4-29-11-zoomin.jpg  

    Sedona Map Project 4-29-11-zoomin1.jpg  


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    ST:

    I have tried to work with ER, but I get the feeling he is not really interested in sharing his hard work,
    Or maybe he just doesn't want to be associated with you...I don't think that is without some merit at this point...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertDog
    Not sure when the last time it was that you updated your Google Maps, but if you use the My Maps app, you're not going to be able to do any more updates. End user mapping(uploading) now has to be done thru Fusion tables. Check this following link on a post I did.

    http://dirtypursuits.blogspot.com/20...me-fusion.html


    Even though you can't directly see descriptions on waypoints and tracks, you can click on a waypoint or track and get a balloon popup that will show the name of the object. Check this following map I have for the Hurricane, UT area. It may come up in normal street map mode. Just click the terrain button if needed. And, I agree, I like the terrain feature even more than Satellite view for first checking out an area.

    http://www.google.com/fusiontables/D...id=S1859414iey

    If you have an identical .gpx file to go with the .kml file that the Fusion map is based on, that will allow users to see the name/text of waypoints on a map when they view the .gpx in their mapping software. Also, at least in MapSource, you will see the track name pop up when you put the cursor over a track.

    Here is something of a design/concept you might want to consider. It's what I am working on at my site, Dirty Pursuits. Sedona is on my list, just haven't even started a page for it yet. And a lot that is only in a partial state of completion. But, check out this link to what I have for the Kaibab Plateau, it's the one destination that is essentially complete.

    http://sites.google.com/site/dirtypu.../kaibabplateau


    I'm heading out on Sunday for a trip thru AZ. Will be in Sedona on Sun, Mon and Tue. If you want to do something on Mon or Tue, let me know. Can do a ride, discuss and work on some of these technical issues.

    Sunday should be a Cathedral/Baldwin/Highline/LittleBear(unless I extend to Mystic and Broken Arrow)/Llama/ParkLoops ride. Just depends on how I feel after the drive down there.

    Mon or Tue will just climb up Schnebly and beyond and come down thru Munds, then go backpack up to the top of Bear Mtn for the night.

    So, still have a 3rd day to figure out what to do; just can't make up my mind, so...
    DD:

    Would love to meet up with you. Which Monday are you going to be here?

    TD

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Nice Guy
    Or maybe he just doesn't want to be associated with you...I don't think that is without some merit at this point...

    I would bet you $100 that you are probably right as usual.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbowilly
    This looks like a real cool project!

    Using Topofusion's waypoints to name the trails sounds like a good idea. The size of the waypoint name remains static when you zoom in or out. See the two TF screenshots below. I pulled your GPX from Everytrail, loaded into Topofusion and added the two waypoints.

    There are several options within TF to change the look of the waypoints. For example you can do things change the point size and background color. See the third screenshot.
    jim:

    I met Scott at Bike & Bean at the end of the AZSF. He was with Chad and he said he thought TF could help with a FS project that I was working on, I am still kind of involved with the project if I can help with the small loop maps required to go along with the dialog of the ride.

    The FS liked the idea of using maps drawn by hand and labeling the individual trails by hand. I didn't want to get involved with drawing maps by hand, but I would like to help the FS with a nice electronically composed map that could be incorporated with the several paragraph dialog. I don't know about copyright issues with using the different formats (e.g. Google Terrain or one of the TF formats). I think Scott said it wouldn't be an isse with TF, but I may have not heard him correctly.

    Anyway one of the loops I am working on is the hopefully soon to be FAMOUS Sedona Epic City Loop of 60 plus miles. My hope would be to put the gpx. track I have almost completed into TF so maybe I could see how it looks. If you could help me with it I would appreciate it.

    http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=978170

    The route maybe changed to include Highline and Transcep.

    TD

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    ST:

    . I don't even use a GPS to navigate so I am clueless as to how difficult it is with a unit like a Garmin 305, which I own.

    I am hoping that one day someone will develope an app that will give the rider a tone when they are off track by over X amount of distance. That way once you are on a trail you wouldn't have to watch a screen you could just keep riding on a visable trail until the unit started buzzing that you were off track.

    Fortunately I have lots of time to kill, so I will keep plugging along.

    TD
    Have you ever tried to navigate with an Edge 305?

    Have you even tried to upload a track file onto your Edge from Garmin Connect?

    Once you do, it's quite easy to go click to the last Mode, ie push the mode button on the left 5 times. The next screen takes you to either Training if you want to view it on a breadcrumb map or to Navigation, if you want to watch an arrow tell you where to go on the trail.

    Try doing this:

    http://connect.garmin.com/activity/77366670

    Upper right hand corner, click "Send to Device" Click on that after you've hooked your Edge 305 up to your laptop. Once it's in your Edge305, go out and try navigating with either bread crumbs as going into "Training" then "Courses'' , then hit "Enter" on the course you wish to do. Do this at the start... and you do need to look at it and see first where the starting point is. You can scroll the map in or out for your birds eye view with the up arrow or down arrow for closer in and more detail, or farther out for a general overview,perhaps to see how much of the "course" you've completed. The closer in the scale, the easier it is to stay on course, or see if you didn't turn where you were supposed to.

    Alternately, you can start on Mode 5 and just hit the "Navigate" arrow, and it will tell you when to go and where to go, the arrow will point the proper direction. You just have to look at the arrow whenever you approach an intersection, though.

    Try both, see which works better for you.

  17. #17
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    Interesting problem

    As a touron who has puzzled out a lot of trail systems in over half the states now, I'd say that Sedona is about the toughest maze anywhere to wrap my mind around, so I'd love to see an elegant solution to this worked out.

    I'll suggest that what might work well for Sedona is the "number every intersection on the map" scheme instead of trying to squeeze in the actual trail names. You could plop down the numbers sequentially, as GPS waypoints.

    Then, have a separate list of all the trail names (100+ and growing) that shows all the intersection numbers each trail passes through from end to end (in the preferred riding direction where applicable).

    Keep the list internally as a spreadsheet. It could also have columns for "length", "vertical ft", "difficulty", "notes", etc for each trail if you want to get snazzy. A spreadsheet would make it relatively easy to sort, filter, or group things as the system evolves, and to output specific lists to serve different audiences.

    For example. you could have a list of recommended "good loops" that are called out by intersection number sequence. Combined with some simple numeric signs in the "real world" at as many intersections as makes sense, this would allow tourons armed with the map to determine where they are on that map and navigate through the maze. Note that it would be quite useful to designate on the map which intersections are marked, and which are not (using bold, or color, or whatever).

    Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud here... hope that's helpful. And I hope to make it back sometime to spend more than one day exploring up there!

    Cheers,
    Carey
    "Rollin' on 20s and 27.5s" ride reports and more at WWW.DEBCAR.COM : Debbie and Carey's RV Travel Website

  18. #18
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    Looks like you me a $100 TD! I actually have slowly been working on an update of my Sedona Map, but I haven't had much free time this year since I am planning for a wedding and remolding a my home. What little free time I have, I spend riding once or twice a week, if I am lucky, and working on the BCT when I can. The BCT is my labor of luv just like the Sedona trails are yours, that's where most of my spare mapping time has been going too. Now if I was retired like you, I would be mapping trails everywhere!! Anyway, Until then it's your Everytrail GPS maps and FRANK HASSLER"S MAP to guide people around.




    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    I would bet you $100 that you are probably right as usual.

  19. #19
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    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead!

    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider
    Looks like you me a $100 TD! I actually have slowly been working on an update of my Sedona Map, but I haven't had much free time this year since I am planning for a wedding and remolding a my home. What little free time I have, I spend riding once or twice a week, if I am lucky, and working on the BCT when I can. The BCT is my labor of luv just like the Sedona trails are yours, that's where most of my spare mapping time has been going too. Now if I was retired like you, I would be mapping trails everywhere!! Anyway, Until then it's your Everytrail GPS maps and FRANK HASSLER"S MAP to guide people around.
    ER:

    Thanks for your post, I figured the $100 would get you to chime in.

    I have been in touch with Frank and he had me send him my maybe 50% completed file at the time. I don't think he was impressed with my GPS tracks. He wants a track with a point every ten feet. Apparently he walked all the trails on his map and used a GPS that costs $1,000,000. I don't have the interest at this point in time to walk all the trails to get an EXACT track on a map. I don't see where it is necessary for mountain biking.

    Thanks for your time put into the BCT, how much more trail is left to be completed?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    DD:

    Would love to meet up with you. Which Monday are you going to be here?

    TD
    I changed plans just slightly.

    I'm leaving this coming Monday morning, May 2nd.

    Look to be in Sedona Mon, Tue and Wed, then off to Prescott for Thu and Fri, Pinetop/Show Low Sat, Sun and Mon, then Flagstaff on Tue and Wed.


    Do something this Tue or Wed?

    If you want, send me a reply to dirtypursuits@gmail.com with a day, ride suggestion and possibly a contact # to get back to you. I'll have the gps, laptop, and plenty of track files and mapping software with me. Anywhere with wireless internet access you can think of, if we need it?

  21. #21
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    Have you tried Nat Geo Topo? It'll link direct to your GPS and mark out your track. As for labeling, color coding might work. It seems as though you may want to do small areas just for ease and clarity (ie Thunder Mt/Solder Pass, Solder Pass/Thompson,). I know its a pain to make a ton of individual maps (I've done it), but it would be easier than trying to carry a 6'x10' wall map in the camel back.

  22. #22
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    Call me old fashioned or maybe it's the geologist in me, but I like printed maps. I'd much rather print up a version of the map for my ride and pull it out of my pocket when needed. I like the "whole picture" view of maps - can't get that very clearly on a little GPS. Plus, I my bike tends to take unplanned tumbles frequently, and am guaranteed to destroy a GPS if I put it on my handlebars.

    Dale's maps rock, but he's all a-busy with wedding plans and being in love. No time lately for him to update our maps! So now it's up to you TD... and thanks! I look forward to something I can print up - my only preference is that the base map shows topographic contours.

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