Poll- doing the WOR?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    Occidental Tourist
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    Poll- doing the WOR?

    This event kinda got poo poo'd when it was announced and that said - who is going and are you doing the 25 or the 50?

    Me, myself and I are doing the 25er. This is the first time I've done one of the epicride events without preriding the course - could be good, could be bad - gonna go find out

  2. #2
    Jm.
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    I don't know yet. I just got back from a ride where I did about 2/3rds of the course...on my 50lb DH bike
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  3. #3
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    poo poo this...

    listen crash test dummy (or should i just say dummy?)-

    the race is filled to capacity and looks to be one hell of a good time. you should get out from behind that laptop and ride. look for a yellow and green jersey whizzing by on race day.

    actually, i am glad that your new ride is treating you well (even if it isn't a DEAN ! ). i guess i'll see you on that friday evening before the race up in "preskit". good luck with the race preparations. long live the dic-pic boys !
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  4. #4
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    yo swamp azz

    hey swamp azz, I wasn't the one pooing the race - i was trying to head off any more poo. A) dude you look like you're about to go down in that second pic - or is the a premonition of things to come at the race? B) It aint a laptop - I gots me a flat screen now baby C) I been riding fool. Take some pics of the course this weekend will ya?
    Last edited by crash test dummy; 04-23-2004 at 07:04 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by crash test dummy
    hey swamp azz, I wasn't the one pooing the race - i was trying to head off any more poo. dude you look like you're about to go down in that second pic - or is the a premonition of things to come at the race? Take some pics of the course this weekend will ya?
    and since we're throwing in random pics.....
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  6. #6
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    Can ya tell I'm avoiding work?

    Quote Originally Posted by hcooper
    listen crash test dummy (or should i just say dummy?)-
    I think this is an appropriate dic-piction of your racing stance
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    Last edited by crash test dummy; 04-28-2004 at 01:43 PM. Reason: me no spell too good

  7. #7
    Jm.
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    .....
    Last edited by Jm.; 05-05-2004 at 07:59 PM.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  8. #8
    Jm.
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    Oh yeah, word of warning;

    I usually do not think about it much because I just take the necessary precautions, but over 1/2 of this race is very exposed. When you drop down from Copper Basin Road/trail 48 the first time you will end up south of prescott, it's not uncommon for it to be more than 10 degrees hotter than prescott is, at about the same elevation, and the tree coverage is pretty sketchy, especially once you work your way out of fire-road 53 and onto copper basin (2nd time). Bring lots and lots of water. More than 100oz for sure. If the weather is anything like it was today (and it looks to only be 2° cooler IF AT ALL on saturday), you are going to need a lot more than 100oz, the exposed stuff is going to make you suck down way more water than you thought.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  9. #9
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    You're going to poach the race? Why?

  10. #10
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    If you wanna play, you gotta pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    You're going to poach the race? Why?
    My thought exactly! Jm, first you complained about the race course, and now you are going to poach the event. You may be a poor student and all, but come on... Poaching just ain't cool.

  11. #11
    Jm.
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    .....
    Last edited by Jm.; 05-05-2004 at 08:04 PM.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  12. #12
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    .....
    Last edited by Jm.; 05-05-2004 at 08:05 PM.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    I'm not poaching anything. These are public trails on public lands, and when I rolled through today, I didn't see anything special about them, they looked exactly the same as they did the last time I rode them.
    Which is exactly the definition of poaching. I'd venture to say that almost 100% of the races in AZ are on public lands, so no the organizers can't legally stop you from riding them. But to do it to spite the organizers is poaching.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Registration was closed before I decided anyway. I may try to get in on friday though, see if anyone has cancled.

    Also, anyone can come and ride these trails with me on any weekend, and I'll only charge you 20 bucks every time.

    I am upset by this race too, it's a lame course and 40% paved roads, 40% graded roads, and 20% singletrack. It's simply lame, falls 1000 feet short of the claimed "4200 vertical", and a poor representation of prescott trails. The literature about this race says something to the effect of, "we hope this gives people a taste of prescott trails and keeps them comming back for more", a rediculous statement given the actual course. The course was designed for convienience from downtown and for some other factors, but pretty much has nothing to do with what is advertised, and that puts me off.
    I'm confused. Where you going to do the race, or are you boycotting it? No offense, but to "threaten" to ride "part" of the course after making such a statement is pretty lame. I'm curious, have you ever put on a race before? I could care less if the course was around the Prescott Courthouse. The guys at Epic are standup, and if I didn't already have plans I would have been the first to sign up. I have no idea why in your opinion they chose a course that is "lame." Maybe the forest service was reluctant to give access to more "Prescott-like" trails for a first time event. But to first say the course is lame and your upset by it, and then to say, Oh, and by the way, I'll be out there on my DH rig is pretty two faced.

  14. #14
    Jm.
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    .....
    Last edited by Jm.; 05-05-2004 at 08:05 PM.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  15. #15
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    I have even a better idea. Why don't you organize your own race, and then let us complain.
    Well, if I couldn't get it on what I deem to be "acceptable" trails for a race, I wouldn't hold it. Is "some kind of race" better than "no race"?? I don't know.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  16. #16
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    I have even a better idea. Why don't you organize your own race, and then let us complain.

  17. #17
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well

    I'm just happy that Luke is moving on to greener pastures, so I don't have to ride with your negative self again.

    Is your life really this bad? The one ride I did with you....never saw you smile/laugh/cry...anything. Just the same frown. Maybe caught a smirk or two during our encounters at Bikesmith...maybe.


    Edit to add: Jm. is correct in this course being quite exposed/extremely rocky in places, etc. Please come prepared. I rode it the other day (on my 21lb. singlespeed...of course) and found it to have some rather tough climbing, especially on Aspen Creek trail and of course the loooong graded fireroads, but nonetheless had fun! Those of us (just me??) that know HOW to have FUN (all the time!!!!!) will certainly enjoy this course. Could it have been better? Sure, much better....so be it, I cannot wait for Saturday!

    I'm 43 and will be dead soon, I'm enjoying every minute of my life....







    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    Well, if I couldn't get it on what I deem to be "acceptable" trails for a race, I wouldn't hold it. Is "some kind of race" better than "no race"?? I don't know.
    Last edited by xrmattaz; 05-05-2004 at 07:29 PM.

  18. #18
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xrmattaz
    I'm just happy that Luke is moving on to greener pastures, so I don't have to ride with your negative self again.

    Is your life really this bad? The one ride I did with you....never saw you smile/laugh/cry...anything. Just the same frown. Maybe caught a smirk or two during our encounters at Bikesmith...maybe.


    Edit to add: Jm. is correct in this course being quite exposed/extremely rocky in places, etc. Please come prepared. I rode it the other day (on my 21lb. singlespeed...of course) and found it to have some rather tough climbing, especially on Aspen Creek trail and of course the loooong graded fireroads, but nonetheless had fun! Those of us (just me??) that know HOW to have FUN (all the time!!!!!) will certainly enjoy this course. Could it have been better? Sure, much better....so be it, I cannot wait for Saturday!

    I'm 43 and will be dead soon, I'm enjoying every minute of my life....
    No mountain-bike race should be 80% on roads. Just no way.

    I'm a pretty realistic person. I don't try to pad things or comfort people by lying.

    Do you think that this course offers terrain that is going to want to make mountain bikers come back like claimed?

    What do you think about the 1000-foot discrepancy between the claimed vertical and what is actually on the topo maps (whisky row is about 5500, top of trail 48 is 6800, bottom of 260 is 5300 and the top at the overlook is 7000)?

    What do you think about the REAL motives for the location of the race, the fact that this is where the forest service wanted it held, the fact that it is convenient since it is held downtown; contrasted to the claimed motives of it being such a great route and such?

    I can think of so many better routes in prescott, but in the end, if a race can only be held in one area because that is what the law or controlling agency says, I feel pretty justified in calling it "lame" when it is portrayed as the best thing ever. I want people to know that prescott offers a lot better terrain than is on this route.
    Last edited by Jm.; 05-05-2004 at 07:54 PM.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  19. #19
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    Good job!

    You are a very realistic person....possibly not the most positive, tho.

    The race will go on. Surely some of the 200 entrants will enjoy it just dandily, of course some will not. I've done plenty of races that I didn't enjoy. I agree with you on most things concerning this course, but it IS set at this point. It's not going to change, so I'm just gonna go out with my wife and have a wonderful time!

    And you will go out and have a lovely morning, get some sunshine, possibly enjoy a laugh or two...and meet us all afterwards for a cold Pepsi and some tacos!

    Looking forward to meeting all of you on Friday evening at High Gear for the riders meeting!








    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    No mountain-bike race should be 80% on roads. Just no way.

    I'm a pretty realistic person. I don't try to pad things or comfort people by lying.

    Do you think that this course offers terrain that is going to want to make mountain bikers come back like claimed?

    What do you think about the 1000-foot discrepancy between the claimed vertical and what is actually on the topo maps (whisky row is about 5500, top of trail 48 is 6800, bottom of 260 is 5300 and the top at the overlook is 7000)?

    What do you think about the REAL motives for the location of the race, the fact that this is where the forest service wanted it held, the fact that it is convenient since it is held downtown; contrasted to the claimed motives of it being such a great route and such?

    I can think of so many better routes in prescott, but in the end, if a race can only be held in one area because that is what the law or controlling agency says, I feel pretty justified in calling it "lame" when it is portrayed as the best thing ever. I want people to know that prescott offers a lot better terrain than is on this route.

  20. #20
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    stop whining...

    listen. no offense here, but please stop complaining and whining. i remember some quote about "pointing fingers"... well, i digress.

    the idea is to create a bike-centered, fun, enjoyable atmosphere. todd and epic rides do it everytime. it may not be the 'best singletrack' in prescott, but it links up well. it offers something for everyone and allows riders the opportunity to enjoy just 'being out'. if the course is not to your liking, stay home or ride something else.

    many folks are riding on saturday to be a part of a community of riders out on the course for a day. it's a wonderful thing when someone else (todd and epic rides) brings it all together for you. no worries, no hassles. just show up on time - with a smile.

    the race is in its first year. like wine, it will improve with age. but you don't have to sit there and wait for that to happen, now do you? you could put your grumpy-face back in your pocket and offer todd some help in establishing a better course for next year.

    be positive. you might live longer.

    peace.
    may your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. may your mountains rise into and above the clouds.
    -edward abbey

  21. #21
    Jm.
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    Yes, I am spoiled when I think about all the great rides that Paul has put on, from 2 to twenty to two-hundred riders.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  22. #22
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    If it's put on by Epic, the answer is yes. I did the 2nd 24OTOP. You camped in a cholla infested cow pasture (you burned cow chips for kindling). The course was flat and boring; about 13 miles, with at least 10 of it on fire road, and I had a friggin blast. Your loss!

    I just find it funny that your constant comments about the course being dull and boring that the thing filled up two weeks before event day. Geez, you think the racers know something you don't?
    Last edited by Casual Observer; 05-06-2004 at 10:44 AM.

  23. #23
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    I'm curious. Does Paul have to get permits, sponsors, designated camping and rest areas, insurance, yada, yada, yada?

    Ever hear the saying, Hold judgement until you've walked a mile in somebody else's shows.

    I'm still curious why despite your constant poo pooing the event you were going to even bother to go our Saturday.
    Last edited by Casual Observer; 05-06-2004 at 08:16 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    I'm curious. Does Paul have to get permits, sponsors, designated camping and rest areas, insurance, yada, yada, yada?
    No, but Paul doesn't receive $90 per rider for his troubles either (or provide insurance, emergency services, or handcrafted prizes). He gets gas money and a meal every once in a great while, but mostly he gets to hang out with his friends.

    Ever hear the saying, Hold judgement until you've walked a mile in somebody else's shows.
    Nope, actually I have not heard that one.

    (Just giving you sh!t )

    I'm still curious why despite your constant poo pooing the event you were going to even bother to go our Saturday.
    I'm curious about that too, actually. I mean, it's a sucky course and it's not anything I'd ride for pleasure, but the priorities of an endurance race are much different than those of a festival-like event like I put on.

    Jim, your complaining about the boring Whiskey course is like complaining about a NASCAR track being boring because all you do is turn left. Frankly I wouldn't want to put 189 racers on the better Prescott trails, either.

    In all fairness, Epicrides says they'll be getting a "taste" of Prescott singletrack -- and that's ALL they'll get I think.

    p.
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  25. #25
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    Sorry Paul, Jim was the one who brought into this, so I had to ask (or course, my question was rhetorical--as your answer was). I know for a fact that you put a lot of effort and heart into your rides (and I promise I'll make one, one day...)

    But see my note above. The first two times they put on the Old Pueblo, it was hell boring. And now look at it. Some sweet, very, very technical stuff (okay, I'm stretching it a bit :-), but it still sells out every year, probably not because the course is fun. In addition, what kind of response do you think Epic would get if they said, "Come do the WOR, you'll see some of the most boring trails Prescott has to offer"? It's all about marketing. Besides, Jim is the Ralph Nadar of MTBR. What purpsose would he server if everybody "told the truth"?

    Not sure why he's rubbing me the wrong way, but I don't get his hypocrisy. He hates the course, yet he wants to ride part of it. Huh?

    P.S. You know quoting popular sayings ain't my forte (just behind spelling) :-)

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Not sure why he's rubbing me the wrong way, but I don't get his hypocrisy. He hates the course, yet he wants to ride part of it. Huh?
    Well...he's tilting at windmills. No real harm in that. Sometimes marketing hyperbole makes me a little crazy too -- even when I'm the one hyperbolizing!

    p.
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  27. #27
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    Hey, I have no problem with somebody telling it like it is. He's done that ever since the course was announced with nary a peep from me. My only issue with him was that after all that complaining about the course, he says he'll be out on the trail...poaching it to boot. Now why should I take him seriously?

    (Don't ask me why the phuck I care. He's probably loving all the attention he's getting.)

  28. #28
    Jm.
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    also the;

    "holyier than thou; thou canst question a race course because it is treason!" line of thinking bothers me.

    I'm calling a spade a spade, and I'm not going to sugar-coat it for anyone.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  29. #29
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    A minimum of 3 times a year? I'm pretty sure Paul will agree with the fact that doing this once a year is probably enough for anybody to handle. Epic puts on a min of 3 events a year (included the second largest 24 hour race in the nation), in addition to helping out with the El Tour de races and others, I believe. I'm not saying that Paul has it easy (in fact, my guess is he had a more difficult time doing the Spring Fling last year), but ****, you make it sound like putting on a race is a walk in the friggin park. Again, I challenge you to put one on, and then get back to us.

  30. #30
    Jm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    I'm curious. Does Paul have to get permits, sponsors, designated camping and rest areas, insurance, yada, yada, yada?
    why don't you research last year's spring fling a little bit, and then get back to me. The answer to most of those questions is, yes.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    also the;

    "holyier than thou; thou canst question a race course because it is treason!" line of thinking bothers me.
    Huh? Where the phuck did you get that? Go for it, I have zero issue with anybody complaining about a course's quality (again, I didn't say a damn word when you started complaining, since I figured you know more about the course than I do). For the umpteenth time, I have issues with all your complaining followed by the, Oh yea, but I'm still going to poach the course. I'm sure I'm completely wrong, but you sounded like the kid in elementary school who came from the good side of tracks, but who ate alone and just wanted to fit in.

  32. #32
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    who cares?

    is it really a big deal? if you like it, ride it. if you don't like it, don't ride it. if you don't like the idea of the course being misrepresented, it is your choice not to participate. i honestly don't think those who are registered feel, or are going to feel, that epic rides was 'pulling one over on them'.

    rather than using this forum to continually cast a dark cloud on things, maybe you start a thread on what you would like to see in a course in prescott and how YOU would get it all accomplished.

    if you don't like what's going on, take some action. don't just sit here and rant about it. get in touch with todd and start the process of making it better for next year.

    see you all in prescott on saturday.
    may your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. may your mountains rise into and above the clouds.
    -edward abbey

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    What's up with all the . . . . . .

    Has there been some sort of censorship going on?

    Oh, and I'm sure that everyone that does this race will have a grand time regardless of jm's opinions. Believe it or not, some of the most fun races I've done have had a significant amount of dirt roads mixed in with singletrack.

  34. #34
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    Stop This Insanity

    Please people, just get out and ride. Stop thinking, get out and ride. Stop expressing opinions, just get out and ride. Poached, scrambled, over easy, just get out and ride.

    Hey, if I am just getting out and riding, when am I allowed to call someone an a$$hole? Not that anyone here is except me.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  35. #35
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    What, are you kidding me? It's like 100 degrees. My bike is retired until Oct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    What, are you kidding me? It's like 100 degrees. My bike is retired until Oct.
    *wuss*

    Rita

    p.s. jeez, people, lighten up, it's all good.

  37. #37
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    Only If

    Quote Originally Posted by zer0
    *wuss*

    Rita

    p.s. jeez, people, lighten up, it's all good.
    Its all good only if you just get out and ride.
    I AM JUST A JERK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    Its all good only if you just get out and ride.
    that was exactly what i meant. when i do not have much time for an offroad ride, all i have closeby is quad atv tracks. sort of like a narrow jeep track. no, it is not ideal, no, it is not all that challenging(i keep my chain in the middle chainring to make it a bit challenging)but, d@mn, it is still fun. so, therefore, it is all good. better than nothing, and much much better than going to work. but then i tend to look on the brightside of things. some people do not.

    Rita

  39. #39
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    wrap up

    Not to open old wounds (aw hell who cares) but I had a great time at the race. The 25 was great fun despite the road involved. The first road climb was a nice warm-up and allowed the pack to sort out. The first round of single track climbing sorted folks out even more. It was all rideable (tho I got lazy with a few of the larger water bars) the first downhill was a rippin good time and it’s nice to see some semi-technical stuff on a race for once. I parked at the finish before the race so I had a nice vantage for watching the rest of the riders come in. Good job Todd and the folks at epic. I do have to say tho – I didn’t leave with a great impression of Prescott. On Friday I had two run-ins with locals who took issue with non-issues. Both instances were with older seemingly Prescott natives (ranchers) who seemed to take issue with me for stupid reasons. The first guy made a remark b/c he only had 4 feet of the sidewalk. I was puzzled but let it slide and brushed it off. On Friday night we went out for a beer and one guy out of a group, as we’re passing them, comes up to us and makes a fist and says something to the effect of “take a look at the brim of a hat? WTF? He and I were the only ones wearing baseball hats. He was purty aggressive for some reason I wasn’t able to interpret. Sad how a few bad encounters can ruin your impression of a place.
    This is just need to know information: Am i supposed to enjoy the irony or pity the sincerity?

  40. #40
    Jm.
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    That sucks. Last weekend here I had such a fun time (graduation) it seemed that everywhere we went; there were activities and live music going on. It was simply perfect, and it was like it was planned (which it was not). This weekend looked pretty active. I rode the big-loop out at costco today, lots and lots of single track and much cooler than it gets on the exposed-side of thumb butte. There are definitly a lot of different people here, and there are some pretty "crazy" ones too, you do have to watch out for them a little bit, a little more later in the night. We have some pretty extensive bike-lanes here, but it's hard to know exactly where you were and the sitation. I do know that there is a lady-cop that used to walk around the courthouse and she'd try to chase down people riding aorund the courthouse on DH bikes for some reason.
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  41. #41
    Skinny legged XC geek
    Reputation: pedalAZ's Avatar
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    I have to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by crash test dummy
    one guy out of a group, as we’re passing them, comes up to us and makes a fist and says something to the effect of “take a look at the brim of a hat? WTF? He and I were the only ones wearing baseball hats. He was purty aggressive for some reason I wasn’t able to interpret.
    What was the slogan on your t-shirt? Heh heh.

  42. #42
    Occidental Tourist
    Reputation: YuriB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pedalAZ
    What was the slogan on your t-shirt? Heh heh.
    None On the shirt but I was wearing a UofA hat - maybe he was an ASU fan.......
    This is just need to know information: Am i supposed to enjoy the irony or pity the sincerity?

  43. #43
    mtbr member
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    Sweet. Glad you had a good time. How did the bike, back, and chest do?

    Where did you go and get a beer? There are a couple places I avoid when in Preskit (namely Whiskey Row).

    (P.S. sorry about poaching your thread. JM. just rubbed me the wrong way for some damn reason.)

  44. #44
    Occidental Tourist
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Sweet. Glad you had a good time. How did the bike, back, and chest do?

    Where did you go and get a beer? There are a couple places I avoid when in Preskit (namely Whiskey Row).

    (P.S. sorry about poaching your thread. JM. just rubbed me the wrong way for some damn reason.)
    Oh sure, now I find out where to avoid.....guess I learned the hard way. The bike was great, nothing more satisfying than dropping the FS guys on the downhills (course some of them passed me climbing but that's another story). The chest hurt a little but it was tolerable and feels pretty good today. As for poaching - what's mtbr w/o a little flame war now and again? I think I rolled in just over 3 hrs (I blame the pre-ride imbibing) but I'm waiting for the final results to be posted.
    This is just need to know information: Am i supposed to enjoy the irony or pity the sincerity?

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