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  1. #1
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    Please Comment on Your New Chuck Wagon User Experience

    As many may know the user built Chuck Wagon trail is being adopted by the Forest Service. As part of the adoption process numerous re-routes were required to either improve trail sustainability or avoid sensitive archeological sites.

    The overall difficulty rating of the trail as been lowered, but there is still enough fun and scenic factor to make this trail a good trail to ride as compared to other Sedona intermediate system trails.

    Rather than doing Chuck Wagon as an out and back you can hook-up the trail with the more advanced Gunslinger trail and Chuck Wagon will serve as a great warm-up to some really great loop options in the Dry Creek area.

    Including Chuck Wagon with Gunslinger, Gunsmoke, Mescal, Aerie, Cockscomb and Dawa is a great loop option.

    Please give the trail a try and let other MTBR viewers know you thoughts on what you think of the new trail routing.

    TD

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    How new is this reroute? I rode both a few months ago and absolutely loved these trails. Great job on those trails and maps!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn-Rider View Post
    How new is this reroute? I rode both a few months ago and absolutely loved these trails. Great job on those trails and maps!
    The re-route was done two days ago.

  4. #4
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    So a group of us headed out to ride the new and improved (dumbed down) Chuck Wagon trail today. Five of us left Cakewalk's casa and took Lower Lizardhead to Lost Watch to Touron to Chuck Wagon. While we were riding we came across five hikers who had heard from their friends who worked on the improvent project that the trail was a good hiking trail.

    Some of the re-routes are a little soft, but easily rideable. The flavor of the trail has definitely been made more intermediate and I believe will be a nice addition to the Over the Edge quiver of trails to send their intermediate rental bike customers out to.

    Since the trail is more XC than previously it is a nice warm-up now for the more advanced Gunslinger trail. We met one hiker out there that thru Gunslinger into his hike mix of trails. When he came out of Gunslinger onto the Long Canyon Rd., he indicated he had a great hike and thanked us for giving him directions on how to do the loop from the Mescal/Chuckwagon starting point.

    I did do a new GPS track of Chuck Wagon to add to my online map which will be updated in the near future.

    TD

    TD

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    I rode it yesterday. Is really any more xc than it was before? If you really want some input I'd say the water diversions on Touron could be made more gradual and less speedbump-like and some of the turns and/or switchbacks are pretty tight on CW. Maybe that was the intent but what do I know? Why do you refer to the reroutes as "dumbed down"? The only dumb thing I noticed was the perfectly rideable 2 or 3 rock ramp to the upper slickrock level in the main drainage had been built up with more rocks and dirt. Now that was dumb.

    I'm not sure why you think Gunslinger is more advanced. Both trails are pretty similar and require about the same effort to ride. All in all an impressive bit of trail work IMO.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I rode it yesterday. Is really any more xc than it was before? If you really want some input I'd say the water diversions on Touron could be made more gradual and less speedbump-like and some of the turns and/or switchbacks are pretty tight on CW. Maybe that was the intent but what do I know? Why do you refer to the reroutes as "dumbed down"? The only dumb thing I noticed was the perfectly rideable 2 or 3 rock ramp to the upper slickrock level in the main drainage had been built up with more rocks and dirt. Now that was dumb.

    I'm not sure why you think Gunslinger is more advanced. Both trails are pretty similar and require about the same effort to ride. All in all an impressive bit of trail work IMO.
    rock:

    I agree with the water diversions on Touron they suck. I hope they will get better as they are ridden more and they get hit with some heavy wet periods.

    There are four major re-routes that reduce the climbing rate and one that bypasses the flat sandy arch site. The re-route over looking Dry Creek Wash and the private residence will be missed the most IMHO.

    Gunslinger IMHO is way more advanced than Chuck Wagon, but if you think they are similar I guess that is good, right?

    Thanks for response?

    TD

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    I agree with the water diversions on Touron they suck. I hope they will get better as they are ridden more and they get hit with some heavy wet periods.

    There are four major re-routes that reduce the climbing rate and one that bypasses the flat sandy arch site. The re-route over looking Dry Creek Wash and the private residence will be missed the most IMHO.

    Gunslinger IMHO is way more advanced than Chuck Wagon, but if you think they are similar I guess that is good, right?

    Thanks for response?

    TD
    Gunslinger has that short but steep slickrock climb and a short section of exposure along Dry Creek. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same as CW. What makes it more advanced? I'm not looking to argue just interested. As for dumbing down CW, it's still got that techy climb out of one of the washes quickly followed by a short step up. I'd call that an advanced move. I agree with you on the section along the bluff above the creek. It's too bad it got rerouted around that. That section also had the most difficult step-up on the whole trail. Despite several improvements over the years I never cleaned that one. The reroute on the other hand is pretty cool how it climbs the top of the hill and then winds around in some pretty, thick forest. The drop down to the creek is nicely benchcut. The old section was an eroded boulder fest.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Gunslinger has that short but steep slickrock climb and a short section of exposure along Dry Creek. Otherwise, it's pretty much the same as CW. What makes it more advanced? I'm not looking to argue just interested. As for dumbing down CW, it's still got that techy climb out of one of the washes quickly followed by a short step up. I'd call that an advanced move. I agree with you on the section along the bluff above the creek. It's too bad it got rerouted around that. That section also had the most difficult step-up on the whole trail. Despite several improvements over the years I never cleaned that one. The reroute on the other hand is pretty cool how it climbs the top of the hill and then winds around in some pretty, thick forest. The drop down to the creek is nicely benchcut. The old section was an eroded boulder fest.
    OK, five of us rode GS today and for some reason I was the only one who cleaned the first STEEP up. Four of those same people cleaned all of Chuck Wagon. There is another rather steep up and I think several riders didn't make that. No one had a problem with the exposed section, but I think a lot of intermediate riders would.

    There is also a short down and up that I saw a guy get injured on about six months ago.

    Would you let your oldest daughter ride down that section?

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    OK, five of us rode GS today and for some reason I was the only one who cleaned the first STEEP up. Four of those same people cleaned all of Chuck Wagon. There is another rather steep up and I think several riders didn't make that. No one had a problem with the exposed section, but I think a lot of intermediate riders would.

    There is also a short down and up that I saw a guy get injured on about six months ago.

    Would you let your oldest daughter ride down that section?

    TD
    Yes, I think so. But I would have her look at it first rather than blindly following in. There's two spots like that, no? One is on the slickrock section along Grassy Knoll and another further down by the creek. Either way, I see your point. She would have an easier time with CW than GS. She really likes Airie

    Have a great turkey ride on L. Frontier tomorrow!

  10. #10
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    Here is a good use we found today for the trail improvement on Chuck Wagon:


  11. #11
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    needs to be taller

    whats on the right?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    OK, five of us rode GS today and for some reason I was the only one who cleaned the first STEEP up. Four of those same people cleaned all of Chuck Wagon. la de da..

    let me boast some more, if I may...There is another rather steep up and I think several riders didn't make that I was a supreme beimg and cleared that you, lowly peon, would likely not...
    but i cleared it

    TD
    youre special!

    someday, I want to grow up and be just like you!

    really man? toot your horn some more would ya? could ya?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nybike1971 View Post
    Here is a good use we found today for the trail improvement on Chuck Wagon:

    Is that seriously a dirt ramp?????? AAAUUUUUGH! Wheel chair accessible I guess. Lame.

    Edit to add pic of this section from April. No dirt and rideable by a guy with only 7mo. riding experience. I could ride it to, and I suck.


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    ^^^^^Ya, but I always riding it going up, so I would have to "session it" to get the glass half full experience! See my "what is used to look like pic." Even last spring when I was still a new rider, I could clean it. (not me in the pic, BTW) Lots of wasted energy and time IMO.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by motochick View Post
    Is that seriously a dirt ramp?????? AAAUUUUUGH! Wheel chair accessible I guess. Lame.
    I thought the same myself but nybike demonstrating the glass half full riding experience eases the disdain for simplification of what was an already an easy move. Besides it's in a major wash and one good storm will take care of the dirt leaving the rocks.

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    As the one who was coordinating the various projects on Chuck Wagon Trail, I did not have that small slick rock ramp designated as a project spot and it was changed by some mountain bike volunteers on their own. Issues like this simply reinforce the need for a trail rating system to know if a trail should be beginner, intermediate, advanced etc. It isn't so much for the rider but for those doing construction and maintenance. It is very difficult to explain to a group of volunteers the character and difficulty of a trail in just a few minutes and I cannot be everywhere during a volunteer event.

    Having worked for the Forest Service on the Red Rock Ranger District, there seems to be a lack of organization and willingness to work together from the mountain bike community. There are ideas and 'demands' but very little follow through. These recurring threads demonstrate just that. It's not that difficult to come up with a difficulty rating system for all of the trails with specifics on grade, drops, size of steps if any, radius of turns, etc... Other places have done exactly that. If more trails are to be adopted on the Red Rock Ranger District, you will likely need to show that there are a lack of trails in a certain difficulty. For example, a lack of beginner and expert trails. Good luck!
    Professional Trail Builder and Guvmint Employee

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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    As the one who was coordinating the various projects on Chuck Wagon Trail, I did not have that small slick rock ramp designated as a project spot and it was changed by some mountain bike volunteers on their own. Issues like this simply reinforce the need for a trail rating system to know if a trail should be beginner, intermediate, advanced etc. It isn't so much for the rider but for those doing construction and maintenance. It is very difficult to explain to a group of volunteers the character and difficulty of a trail in just a few minutes and I cannot be everywhere during a volunteer event.

    Having worked for the Forest Service on the Red Rock Ranger District, there seems to be a lack of organization and willingness to work together from the mountain bike community. There are ideas and 'demands' but very little follow through. These recurring threads demonstrate just that. It's not that difficult to come up with a difficulty rating system for all of the trails with specifics on grade, drops, size of steps if any, radius of turns, etc... Other places have done exactly that. If more trails are to be adopted on the Red Rock Ranger District, you will likely need to show that there are a lack of trails in a certain difficulty. For example, a lack of beginner and expert trails. Good luck!
    You guys got an amazing amount of work done! You can't be everywhere at once. I agree with you on all accounts but the explosion in renegade trail building in the last 5 years makes the case to the RR District that the these trails were user-build, and became popular in part, because they met a demand not addressed experientially by the rest of the designated trail system.
    Last edited by rockman; 11-24-2011 at 11:08 PM.

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    Created 'work' where none existed. Fabulous, like a Sedona New Deal.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    As the one who was coordinating the various projects on Chuck Wagon Trail, I did not have that small slick rock ramp designated as a project spot and it was changed by some mountain bike volunteers on their own. Issues like this simply reinforce the need for a trail rating system to know if a trail should be beginner, intermediate, advanced etc. It isn't so much for the rider but for those doing construction and maintenance. It is very difficult to explain to a group of volunteers the character and difficulty of a trail in just a few minutes and I cannot be everywhere during a volunteer event.

    Having worked for the Forest Service on the Red Rock Ranger District, there seems to be a lack of organization and willingness to work together from the mountain bike community. There are ideas and 'demands' but very little follow through. These recurring threads demonstrate just that. It's not that difficult to come up with a difficulty rating system for all of the trails with specifics on grade, drops, size of steps if any, radius of turns, etc... Other places have done exactly that. If more trails are to be adopted on the Red Rock Ranger District, you will likely need to show that there are a lack of trails in a certain difficulty. For example, a lack of beginner and expert trails. Good luck!
    Justin:

    I am curious from you observation of the group that turned out how many if any of the volunteers could be considered as full time trail builders for the FS. We had about 25 people out there and from what you observed how many of them would you want to have on a full time crew at their current skill level, if you were the trail crew boss?

    I personally witnessed a lot of people who wanted to do what was required, but really had very little actual experience knowing what to do. I think overall the crew was pretty green, but certainly had good intentions.

    One suggestion I have for those who may have been cutting branches, please don't leaves short stubs from the trunk of the tree. They will only die and could cause serious injury to a passing rider.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by motochick View Post
    Is that seriously a dirt ramp?????? AAAUUUUUGH! Wheel chair accessible I guess. Lame.

    Edit to add pic of this section from April. No dirt and rideable by a guy with only 7mo. riding experience. I could ride it to, and I suck.

    Yeah but as nybiker is showing you it is now an expert move and not a beginner xc move.

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    True, that ramp will be washed out in due time. The soft corners will firm up. The rolling dips will wash through. The brush will grow back. I felt that the work that was done with the trail at least provided a solid base for the track to age gracefully. It will be a great learning experience for those who ride out there on a regular basis will be able to watch what happens when great care in development takes place. At least compare this effort with other trails out there.
    I was wondering if any of the local volunteers have stepped up to become the Chuckwagon steward?
    There is a big difference between ripping and skidding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    Issues like this simply reinforce the need for a trail rating system to know if a trail should be beginner, intermediate, advanced etc. It isn't so much for the rider but for those doing construction and maintenance.

    Good luck!
    Yes! I believe that having a rating system that has some sort of definitions will alleviate many of the issues people have regarding trail maintenance. Having trail crews that can maintain that level of difficulty while stopping erosion etc is another huge step in the right direction.

    Jeep clubs do it with a 1.0-10.0 scale in .5 increments that all have different defining features required to make up a trail. Ski areas do it with the green dot to double black diamond ratings. These people know what they're getting themselves into, and better yet, there's definitions and guidelines for trail crews to work off of.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you値l crash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chalkpaw View Post
    True, that ramp will be washed out in due time. The soft corners will firm up. The rolling dips will wash through. The brush will grow back. I felt that the work that was done with the trail at least provided a solid base for the track to age gracefully. It will be a great learning experience for those who ride out there on a regular basis will be able to watch what happens when great care in development takes place. At least compare this effort with other trails out there.
    I was wondering if any of the local volunteers have stepped up to become the Chuckwagon steward?
    Cp:

    That is an excellent question. I have always believed that would be nice if 4 or 5 could adopt each newly adopted trail and keep up with the maintenance issues that come up in the future. It will be interesting if there will be an enthusiastic response.

    Out of the 25 people who showed up for the volunteer work day there must be several people that want to keep an eye on it.

    TD

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    I have wanted to adopt a trail in Sedona now for a while but I never heard back from the Forest Service other then a pm on here from Tuna. It was really frustrating to offer my time and service to them and then be ignored. I would really love to adopt Broken Arrow and make it super sweet, it has so much potential to be so much better then what it is now.

  25. #25
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    its sad that anyone

    1) needs a dirt ramp built-pathetic, learn to ride the terrain, thats mountain biking. you have no right to mess with another mans climb if you ask me.

    2)cant you find another ledge to drop that doesnt need a ramp-I find PLENTY, and I have never filled in a feature so I could ride it. I like the humbling need to dismount at some points

    3)felt that filling that area in with dirt so poorly was worth their time, its ugly, shoddy and needs to come out asap. for good

    fortunately, I dont ride up there so you can all make whatever mess u want there, I assure you if you did that by me I'd have lots more to say, and I'd be out there with my pick in no time

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I have wanted to adopt a trail in Sedona now for a while but I never heard back from the Forest Service other then a pm on here from Tuna. It was really frustrating to offer my time and service to them and then be ignored. I would really love to adopt Broken Arrow and make it super sweet, it has so much potential to be so much better then what it is now.
    and what if your sweet is my sour boss?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    and what if your sweet is my sour boss?
    98% would love the work I would do and it would solve a lot of the erosion and widening issues. Things you probably don't understand from a lack of actual experience. So I guess I wouldn't really care how a few naysayers would react. Remember you did just move here and I would bet none of the trails are from your handy work. So please, humor me, what issues on BA might there or might there not be? Please elaborate about where the problem areas are, I really want to hear about your building knowledge. Tell us about the half rule, what pitching is, or a boulder causeway, what's the difference between a full bech and a half bench? What about looking at canopy and water flow? Hows about thinking about flow, transitions, seeing places that force extra heavy breaking and equally heavy pedaling. What in your opinion is the best way to develop a switch back or corner? There actually is a lot to trail building and I would think that anyone with any sort of knowledge would want a trail crew leader to understand these basic fundamentals to proper building. So in the end I know most would be stoked and if your one of the 2% that decides to cry about it I guess I wouldn't really care. Go do something, gain respect, and then maybe some of us will take you seriously.

  28. #28
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    RA,
    you respect is not required, so that I dont have it neither here nor there. You do sound pretty full of yourself, fwiw. You and trail doc, must be good friends, same goals, same need to mess with my ride.
    Y'all need to post less about trail work and either go do it, or ride, but this is nonsense, ramps on waterfalls, dirt mounts so someone can hit a lil 2 foot drop, its all just annoying. I ride dumber and dumber trails, thats annoying too. Perhaps with your einstein skills in quantum trail metaphysics you can make my ride better, not easier.

    catch my drift?
    no?
    whats with the line of twenty questions?
    again, more of the what did you clean/what did you ride
    You sound JUST like TD, but I guess thats your goal..pat yerself on the back.

    BA-thats one of my staples so if you plan on dumbing it down or up, and its an open event COUNT on me being there

    I'm not a trail builder, and do not profess I know how to build trail.

    I do know when an section has been made more geriatric friendly. I do know when dumasses fill in stuff with rocks that was once a trail with character.

    Y'all need to try running a coil fork, I'm telling ya. I see stuff being smoothed out that was perfectly fine, an no I dont have time to toot your horn and give examples of what you plan to 'fix'

    Let me know when you, and your Summacumlaude PhD in trail building skills is planning on messing with BA

    maybe you should list in order of priority what is broken, on broken arrow, since I ride it just fine, and fear you should ride it more and fix whats not broke, less, but you're the nobel prize winning traildoc the 2nd so when that work day comes, do elighten me with the answers to the twenty silly questions, whose answers will likely dumb down and F- up my ride.

    Look what they did to slim shady. Its become friggin begginner ville disney world. two years ago it was a challenge on my big bike, now I ride on my XC bike

    divert water which way floats your boat, but trail after trail, is getting to the point that you will turn this into 29'er country

    blah

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    RA,
    you respect is not required, so that I dont have it neither here nor there. You do sound pretty full of yourself, fwiw. You and trail doc, must be good friends, same goals, same need to mess with my ride.
    Y'all need to post less about trail work and either go do it, or ride, but this is nonsense, ramps on waterfalls, dirt mounts so someone can hit a lil 2 foot drop, its all just annoying. I ride dumber and dumber trails, thats annoying too. Perhaps with your einstein skills in quantum trail metaphysics you can make my ride better, not easier.

    catch my drift?
    no?
    whats with the line of twenty questions?
    again, more of the what did you clean/what did you ride
    You sound JUST like TD, but I guess thats your goal..pat yerself on the back.

    BA-thats one of my staples so if you plan on dumbing it down or up, and its an open event COUNT on me being there

    I'm not a trail builder, and do not profess I know how to build trail.

    I do know when an section has been made more geriatric friendly. I do know when dumasses fill in stuff with rocks that was once a trail with character.

    Y'all need to try running a coil fork, I'm telling ya. I see stuff being smoothed out that was perfectly fine, an no I dont have time to toot your horn and give examples of what you plan to 'fix'

    Let me know when you, and your Summacumlaude PhD in trail building skills is planning on messing with BA

    maybe you should list in order of priority what is broken, on broken arrow, since I ride it just fine, and fear you should ride it more and fix whats not broke, less, but you're the nobel prize winning traildoc the 2nd so when that work day comes, do elighten me with the answers to the twenty silly questions, whose answers will likely dumb down and F- up my ride.

    Look what they did to slim shady. Its become friggin begginner ville disney world. two years ago it was a challenge on my big bike, now I ride on my XC bike

    divert water which way floats your boat, but trail after trail, is getting to the point that you will turn this into 29'er country

    blah

    I am actually NOT full of myself but I may or may not have lots of experience. Experience as in screwing up A LOT and maybe doing things VERY wrong and learning the hard way. I have watched work turn into one big mess because of how badly it was done. I have seen people waste hundreds of hours doing maintenance on sections that if had been built right would be much more fun to ride, be more challenging, add two to three times the distance, and be sustainable enough that very little would be needed to keep the original desired experience in play. I have ridden mountain bikes for about 28 years but more then riding I love the creating and building aspect. I love looking for lines and making them happen. I don't do any underground trail work but I do look for natural free ride type lines to be creative with. I'm hoping this will change and I will be able to use this passion in a positive and useful way. We are currently trying to open up legal free ride and down hill options here in Flagstaff. I guess I understand your frustrations with these features that have been changed but honestly I hardly ever ride most of the XC/AM trails in Sedona because the only bike I have currently is a 42 lb. free ride bike. I do not want to create highways for the masses unless the desired use be so. I am more interested in building trails that mix new school flow with ultra gnar old school dh. That's my style. I like building tho, so I would be excited about any sanctioned project at this point.

    Sorry if those primarily involved with the evolution of biking around N. Arizona are ****ing up YOUR ride but since you have been living here for what.......a year or so and like to run your mouth off like YOU think your **** doesn't stink we will truly take your opinions with only a grain of salt. And yeah..........I guess I'm the one who is pretty full of himself? STFU FNG.

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    looks like I hit a nerve..
    lots more cussin than needed, try and expand your vocabulary.

    so wait the only bike you have is a 42lb lightweight and you dont ride most of sedona, which is mostly xc and am, not really a DH spot, but youre running your mouth with your PhD in trail work to achieve what?

    what is it that you are gonna dd to my or anyones ride in sedona, or Broken arrow-which is a hard Xc or easy AM trail. I'm far from a FNG and likely ride sedona more frequently than you. Just not looking for that big ring thrill man..with a 42 lb bike you must be able to relate to the the downhill, but I am betting with that pig of a bike ou're walking some climbs, and looking at lines differently than when I am on my 27 lb bike, than when i am on my 34 lb bike or vs when I am on my 41 lb bike.

    open your perspective man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    looks like I hit a nerve..
    lots more cussin than needed, try and expand your vocabulary.

    so wait the only bike you have is a 42lb lightweight and you dont ride most of sedona, which is mostly xc and am, not really a DH spot, but youre running your mouth with your PhD in trail work to achieve what?

    what is it that you are gonna dd to my or anyones ride in sedona, or Broken arrow-which is a hard Xc or easy AM trail. I'm far from a FNG and likely ride sedona more frequently than you. Just not looking for that big ring thrill man..with a 42 lb bike you must be able to relate to the the downhill, but I am betting with that pig of a bike ou're walking some climbs, and looking at lines differently than when I am on my 27 lb bike, than when i am on my 34 lb bike or vs when I am on my 41 lb bike.

    open your perspective man
    I actually like cursing, I'm from New Jersey so a curse word is just a way to express strong feelings. Don't like it? Too bad. I don't give a ****. You are a FNG, yes. you. are. I was asking questions about building because it's obvious you don't have a clue so I was making a point, not flexing my PHD in building. Your out of your element Donny. I'm pretty much done with you. In the end NO ONE will care about you, please continue what you do best.

  32. #32
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    FWIW, I rode Chuck Wagon today for the first time since the "trail work day". There's many things I can complain about but it's really not worthwhile.

    The one thing I do think is constructive criticism is the fact that there weren't any new corners with a constant radius. Most of them get much tighter as you go through it. I believe corners like this are going to prompt skidding because it looks like you should be able to carry your speed through the corner until you're half-way through it. Other than that, the trail seems like it has been made a bit more family friendly, even ran into a family enjoying the trail.

    I think I would consider this a solid intermediate trail now. I didn't see anything that I would consider any more difficult than intermediate.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you値l crash.
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    [QUOTE=woahey;8712000]FWIW, I rode Chuck Wagon today for the first time since the "trail work day". There's many things I can complain about but it's really not worthwhile.

    The one thing I do think is constructive criticism is the fact that there weren't any new corners with a constant radius.

    I really dislike those corners on HL and HH that are steep fast down hill into tight corners that force heavy breaking and the formation of ruts before the corners. I do like an in sloped corner with snap but I'm guessing the turns your talking about are flat or out sloped. I'm a big fan of grade reversals before and after the turn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post

    a year or so and like to run your mouth off like YOU think your **** doesn't stink we will truly take your opinions with only a grain of salt.

    I was raised in NJ. Till I was 34 yrs old. Still, you sound stupid.
    And who is the 'we' that you represent, and why should I or any one care what you or your 'we' thinks?

    Sounds like you
    a) riding a 42 lb bike have no place to build xc trails
    b)admitting you really dont ride much of sedona, you should shut your pie hole
    c)i suspect you are climb challenged on a 42 lb rig, and no thats not a opportunity for you or your buddy traildoc to get your pantees in bunch, there will be no uphill or downhill contests

    Plus, I'd smoke ya...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    I was raised in NJ. Till I was 34 yrs old. Still, you sound stupid.
    And who is the 'we' that you represent, and why should I or any one care what you or your 'we' thinks?

    Sounds like you
    a) riding a 42 lb bike have no place to build xc trails
    b)admitting you really dont ride much of sedona, you should shut your pie hole
    c)i suspect you are climb challenged on a 42 lb rig, and no thats not a opportunity for you or your buddy traildoc to get your pantees in bunch, there will be no uphill or downhill contests

    Plus, I'd smoke ya...
    I really hope you get the opportunity to meet me or RA on the trail and have the chance to "smoke" us. You have big words for a "man" with such a small skill set. Remember when you were on your first MTBR profile before it got deleted due to your mental illness and you sent me a PM to show you the wasabi trail you heard so much praise about? Well you are on the wrong end of an internet fight with the man that built it. Get over yourself. You suck. I hope we get the chance to ride.

  36. #36
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    [QUOTE=raisingarizona;8712011]
    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    FWIW, I rode Chuck Wagon today for the first time since the "trail work day". There's many things I can complain about but it's really not worthwhile.

    The one thing I do think is constructive criticism is the fact that there weren't any new corners with a constant radius.

    I really dislike those corners on HL and HH that are steep fast down hill into tight corners that force heavy breaking and the formation of ruts before the corners. I do like an in sloped corner with snap but I'm guessing the turns your talking about are flat or out sloped. I'm a big fan of grade reversals before and after the turn.
    There was already enough skid marks leading into the corners to let you know to slow down. It wasn't so much as the corners being flat or out sloped so much as the severe decreasing radius of them. When you think the corner should end, you're realizing it's just begun. I guess it would be slightly nicer if you're riding from east to west, but I always thought the preferred direction was the opposite of that.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you値l crash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    I was raised in NJ. Till I was 34 yrs old. Still, you sound stupid.
    And who is the 'we' that you represent, and why should I or any one care what you or your 'we' thinks?

    Sounds like you
    a) riding a 42 lb bike have no place to build xc trails
    b)admitting you really dont ride much of sedona, you should shut your pie hole
    c)i suspect you are climb challenged on a 42 lb rig, and no thats not a opportunity for you or your buddy traildoc to get your pantees in bunch, there will be no uphill or downhill contests

    Plus, I'd smoke ya...
    Now that I have had some time to think about this let me say that yes I don't really know what it is your complaining about exactly. I do understand trail building, whether it's Xc, DH, FR, or straight up hiking. I love trail building, it's some strange passion I have, yes I'm a weirdo. I also know that if the Sedona/Flag region is going to be a great bike destination the trails overall may need to be more user friendly. That doesn't mean they can't be challenging but on the more main system trails you may want option lines. This way you won't have erosion and widening, something the FS or any land manager generally does not like.

    I do not live in Sedona but I would like to see the Sedona/Flag region be able to blow the Moab/Fruita region out of the water as far as a bike destination goes. I think we have it, it's just going to take some serious planning, hard work, and marketing.

    I think it would be very cool to see a shift from the gaper jeep tourist being the main source of tourist dollars to being the more adventurous type tourist also giving to the local economy.

    That being said I'm sure you can "smoke me". I could care less. I do not race. I'm not into competition unless that means finishing with the biggest smile on my face. I have in the past been a XC guy and I hope some day I will be able to afford more then one bike but currently I cannot.

    Stupid? Well we can let the peanut gallery decide on that one. I guess I let myself get carried away a little but meh......so what. It's the internet.

    Good for you being more rad then me. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back, I don't care.

  38. #38
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    1)RA, if you dont even live in sedona, why not leave it to those of us who actually live here to worry about the trails? no offense, but I ride here 5 times a week. you? seriously. how often are you on broken arrow? Weekly? I am. if you're there often, I'm sure we've crossed paths, didnt I see you on munds last year?

    why not keep your free time and trail work hobby on improving the trails in your own backyard? what are you messing with mine for? we have one traildoc, and thats plenty

    2)I am not trying to push your buttons, I really want to know. Cause I just dont go up to Flag and start making changes, ya know? nor do I feel the need to readjust and fix moab when I am there. you? are you doing fixes there and everywhere too? or just sedona in the winter? Why are you down here and why are you fixing BA.why? Then tell me where you live, and where you ride most. I will be lookin fwd to make a long list whatever changes I see fit, and see how you like it, I bet you will love it, too, me changing the trails you paid a wad to buy a house next to, k? yah, so i feel pretty strongly about anyone who advertises the work they plan to rally up workers to do on broken arrow. go make a mess all you want on chuckwagon, I wont show for the work, and have yet to ride it it, ever.

    3)Why are you, and your non resident 42lb bike so worried about broken arrow? What do you need to fix specifically? having trouble getting it up? I mean the bike ofcourse, chuckles. No really, what part of broken arrow needs work? I need some trenches done in my yard for drainage, so if youre looking for work to do with a shovel I can find some thing very gratifying for ya. Otherwise, list what sections are so wide you need to fix it. what is broken on broken arrow that you rather fix than ride? my last ride I loved it, and never did I get off my bike and say, 'wow i sure wish somebody would FIX that'

    your ride was different I take it? saw lots of work opps? I mean if youre putting in jumps and ledges, man, I'm buying beer.

    but I some how dont recall a single trail work project in AZ that laid out that kind of trail. We did that in Seattle. In NY. In NJ. but here, its all being made wheelchair accessible and its rampy and its lame and it blows. when someone at the FS gets the wisdom to incorporate a 4 foot ledge with a transition for noobs as a solid trail feature, I will shut up. till then, we need better riders not dumber trails. as such, please try and understand man, its NOTHING PERSONAL but I am apprehensive of anyone doing work on trails I frequent. the work on LLamma was fun, Justin wa great to work with and the waterfall was discussed at lenght, so while I didnt make it for work day #2, I knew what was happening and was happy to volunteer as a local..

    4)as such, I'll look forward to the email from the FS for when you get the work youre doing approved.See, sedona is no longer a good place to do unsanctioned work, you know, with so much video rolling on everyones handlebar these days. I will for sure come out to work on broken arrow. I care about that trail.

    Its just a great trail as it sits, not sure what you think needs fixin...rode it last week and was even better before someone dumbed it down this spring, and yes this is my neck of the woods now, too, so what is it you plan to do here and when are you doing it? enough with the pedestal soapbox, step down, sir, calm down and try and stay focused

    I have no desire for influence, trail work time or saddle time on chuck wagon, but on broken arrow, now we're gonna have to try and collaborate our visions. You see mine,its plain as day - its great how it is. whats yours? What needs dumbing down? Where are you leaving me a rugged line? please share where erosion is a issue that needs 'fixin', pics please

    this is what I want to know; as those rugged lines I love are disappearing; and I find my self doing more wash rides to get my dose of fix, in my backyard
    Last edited by Acrophobe; 11-25-2011 at 07:45 PM.

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    BTW I agree with you that we should both look forward to a greater diversity of trails in northern AZ, and the shift in a more bike centric destination, well, yeah, that would be IDEAL for most any mtbr'er, but really money talks:

    Pink Jeep is annually a 30MILLION dollar business, what do you think the total revenue of the three bikes shops in town is?

    Money talks. The way to do it is to buy land, build a bike park. I have said it before, I would invest. A fair wad too. I've priced the land. I've priced lifts. I've priced the heavy machinery(backhoes bobcats). You want a destination, we should collaborate and see where that goes, it will yield us better results as bikers who want the same goals. Dedicated land for bikers, gravity oriented sections and XC sections. The share the trails BS is weak, the horses do way more damage than bikes, and no one in AZ seems to want the flowy jumpy stuff we have the potential to build, if you take the silly water studies and width restrictions out, its easier to build stuff that makes bikers of all levels happy

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Yeah but as nybiker is showing you it is now an expert move and not a beginner xc move.
    expert?? My GF is a 2nd year biker, and can clear that type of obstacle up or down, based on its looks in height in either direction. Now we're gonna how to go ride chuck wagon!

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    1)RA, if you dont even live in sedona, why not leave it to those of us who actually live here to worry about the trails? no offense, but I ride here 5 times a week. you? seriously. how often are you on broken arrow? Weekly? I am. if you're there often, I'm sure we've crossed paths, didnt I see you on munds last year?

    why not keep your free time and trail work hobby on improving the trails in your own backyard? what are you messing with mine for? we have one traildoc, and thats plenty

    2)I am not trying to push your buttons, I really want to know. Cause I just dont go up to Flag and start making changes, ya know? nor do I feel the need to readjust and fix moab when I am there. you? are you doing fixes there and everywhere too? or just sedona in the winter? Why are you down here and why are you fixing BA.why? Then tell me where you live, and where you ride most. I will be lookin fwd to make a long list whatever changes I see fit, and see how you like it, I bet you will love it, too, me changing the trails you paid a wad to buy a house next to, k? yah, so i feel pretty strongly about anyone who advertises the work they plan to rally up workers to do on broken arrow. go make a mess all you want on chuckwagon, I wont show for the work, and have yet to ride it it, ever.

    3)Why are you, and your non resident 42lb bike so worried about broken arrow? What do you need to fix specifically? having trouble getting it up? I mean the bike ofcourse, chuckles. No really, what part of broken arrow needs work? I need some trenches done in my yard for drainage, so if youre looking for work to do with a shovel I can find some thing very gratifying for ya. Otherwise, list what sections are so wide you need to fix it. what is broken on broken arrow that you rather fix than ride? my last ride I loved it, and never did I get off my bike and say, 'wow i sure wish somebody would FIX that'

    your ride was different I take it? saw lots of work opps? I mean if youre putting in jumps and ledges, man, I'm buying beer.

    but I some how dont recall a single trail work project in AZ that laid out that kind of trail. We did that in Seattle. In NY. In NJ. but here, its all being made wheelchair accessible and its rampy and its lame and it blows. when someone at the FS gets the wisdom to incorporate a 4 foot ledge with a transition for noobs as a solid trail feature, I will shut up. till then, we need better riders not dumber trails. as such, please try and understand man, its NOTHING PERSONAL but I am apprehensive of anyone doing work on trails I frequent. the work on LLamma was fun, Justin wa great to work with and the waterfall was discussed at lenght, so while I didnt make it for work day #2, I knew what was happening and was happy to volunteer as a local..

    4)as such, I'll look forward to the email from the FS for when you get the work youre doing approved.See, sedona is no longer a good place to do unsanctioned work, you know, with so much video rolling on everyones handlebar these days. I will for sure come out to work on broken arrow. I care about that trail.

    Its just a great trail as it sits, not sure what you think needs fixin...rode it last week and was even better before someone dumbed it down this spring, and yes this is my neck of the woods now, too, so what is it you plan to do here and when are you doing it? enough with the pedestal soapbox, step down, sir, calm down and try and stay focused

    I have no desire for influence, trail work time or saddle time on chuck wagon, but on broken arrow, now we're gonna have to try and collaborate our visions. You see mine,its plain as day - its great how it is. whats yours? What needs dumbing down? Where are you leaving me a rugged line? please share where erosion is a issue that needs 'fixin', pics please

    this is what I want to know; as those rugged lines I love are disappearing; and I find my self doing more wash rides to get my dose of fix, in my backyard
    It could use fixing all over, there are all kinds of user created lines because as it sits it does not really work for the amount of traffic it gets, it could also be more bike friendly and more fun. I don't expect you to understand and once again I don't care. It's obvious you have zero understanding about trail building and what it takes to have sustainable lines. Since you have been riding around here for only about a year I wouldn't expect you to really know any better. You say I sound stupid? That's hilarious.

  42. #42
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    Stupid spodes can't ride, just sanitize trail and write novels about it online.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Stupid spodes can't ride, just sanitize trail and write novels about it online.
    Quit being a parody of yourself. Its gross.

  44. #44
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    I just got back from riding the "new Chuckwagon" I think the improvements were lame. First of all, there were a bunch of sections that had rock chunks completely obliterated or "paved" over. These were NOT re-routes, just someone with a sledgehammer flattening everything out. Where there used to be a small drop off, has been smashed down and filled in with dirt, like a wheelchair ramp. Then there is the wheelchair ramp. See above pic. I learned how to right semi-techy stuff by riding this trail, now some of the semi-techy stuff is flat. I guess it was a good thing I got to ride and learn on it before it all got crushed.

    Second is the forest service's re-route. I don't care for it, the turns are sucky. I guess this is progress.

    Brenda

  45. #45
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    I don't know who did it or authorized the elimination of the rock chunks.

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    But 98% love Traildocs work...you dont like ramps? dont want it smooth and paved?

    careful, thats what i am saying

    I thought I was the only one who thinks its messed up

    smashed down sounds more like destruction than construction

    All those hits on this thread, well only if they were all tourons
    You and I must be the 2% Brenda, cause I have used the term 'wheelchair accessible' to describe his work before, glad someone else agrees...

    Are you reading this JUSTIN? Thats the 2nd person who suggested no more ramps, nor more dirt fill ins and enough of the packed down rock piles. nature doesnt do that. It snot really fun to ride, just easy. read: boring

    Doc, you may be hurting tourism, but believe what you want. One bike shop failed up in your end of town where the trails are so good..and another one is trying.

    But now youre messing up the stuff in VOC too.

    I hope youre right and that you are giving the people what they want, but it sure sounds debatable once you remove rockmans/raising/prodigals posts. You, TD, have a small circle of friends, and a large circle of folks who really arent that stoked. onlookers like me. You are not as popular as you think, based on the posts here-rather I should say, your work, that you keep insisting is so top notch, well from a guy like me who cant build trail, i'd say it needs alot of improvement, its boring, rampy, and we all recognize your work. Youre the only one reassuring yourself its good.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by motochick View Post
    I just got back from riding the "new Chuckwagon" I think the improvements were lame. First of all, there were a bunch of sections that had rock chunks completely obliterated or "paved" over. These were NOT re-routes, just someone with a sledgehammer flattening everything out. Where there used to be a small drop off, has been smashed down and filled in with dirt, like a wheelchair ramp. Then there is the wheelchair ramp. See above pic. I learned how to right semi-techy stuff by riding this trail, now some of the semi-techy stuff is flat. I guess it was a good thing I got to ride and learn on it before it all got crushed.

    Second is the forest service's re-route. I don't care for it, the turns are sucky. I guess this is progress.

    Brenda
    Until we see proof that someone in a wheelchair could clean that, these are baseless accusations.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Until we see proof that someone in a wheelchair could clean that, these are baseless accusations.
    Got wheelchair? I'm not certain that I could in a manual chair but definitely could in a power chair. If I do it though, I will have to add CW to Redirecting to Plesk Login...
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you値l crash.
    - Julie Furtado

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Got wheelchair? I'm not certain that I could in a manual chair but definitely could in a power chair. If I do it though, I will have to add CW to Redirecting to Plesk Login...
    Well, if you can't, trail dock will have more work to do!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Well, if you can't, trail dock will have more work to do!
    I don't think TD had anything to do with this ramp. When he builds one, it looks like it's gonna hold for more than one good rainstorm...
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you値l crash.
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  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    I don't think TD had anything to do with this ramp. When he builds one, it looks like it's gonna hold for more than one good rainstorm...
    Maybe it was ranger tuna then?

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Until we see proof that someone in a wheelchair could clean that, these are baseless accusations.
    This dude in his wheelchair can clean some serious stuff.


  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn-Rider View Post
    This dude in his wheelchair can clean some serious stuff.

    Yep, those rocks all have to go.

    TD!

    TD...

    TD

    Td

    td?......

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Yep, those rocks all have to go.

    TD!

    TD...

    TD

    Td

    td?......
    If you have ever worked on a FS trail crew, you have to reduce those rocks to a product known as crush. Even though there maybe small rock next to your project that you could use breaking rocks into crush is the preferred method.

    TD

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    Please show us where in Moab, Grand junction, Lower Cali where we all have similar DG and terrain, where this style of trail work is done? I havent seen this crappy crashed rock fill in work anywhere else... it is NOT enjoyable, when you take away natural character and 'hide' it as such. It wont last ... ...

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    Please show us where in Moab, Grand junction, Lower Cali where we all have similar DG and terrain, where this style of trail work is done? I havent seen this crappy crashed rock fill in work anywhere else... it is NOT enjoyable, when you take away natural character and 'hide' it as such. It wont last ... ...
    It's actually a standard trail building technique used world wide. Get a clue. Crush acts like a bonding agent in between rock work. Please read up before you continue to open your mouth and make an a## out of yourself.

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    Well then thats funny my last trip to Moab I didnt see ANY of that, nor did I when I lived in Grand Junction.

    Youre full of BS.

    I saw what the FS did at LLAMMA, thats just an ugly ramp, thats boring up, or down. It was way more fun before when I had to hang off the back end of my saddle to make it down the chunk line that was there for the last two years...yes the noobs watched.

    Indeed, when I had my XC bike I would dismount but on any other bike it was rideable, its a waste of hours and time, did not divert water, and erased a trail feature. Just like the animated gif of the lil baby drop that someone was so proud of on chuck wagon, you took the climb the dude once enjoyed in the still photo enjoyed and obliterated it, so the noobs could jump. Really? you need a transition ramp there?

    Please..learn to ride the terrain. There is a reason I LIVE here and have yet to ride Chuck Wagon...you figure it out.

  58. #58
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    It's ALL about Acrophobe, isn't it Acrophobe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    It's ALL about Acrophobe, isn't it Acrophobe?

    Thats a weak reply...you are either electively blind, or just thick(and beyond clarity), if you cant read the posts by other users who are your 98%

  60. #60
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    Keep digging. I would try and climb out of a hole I was digging before it was so deep that I couldn't climb out any more. But yeah, I guess I'm the thick one.

    Your sort of fun now and then but your starting to be like a cancer on our forum here.

    What's your girlfriend up to these days? I hear she is pretty cute, I hope to meet her at some point. Does she ski? I could teach her if she would like. Don't answer that yet, I'll hopefully run into her at some point and then I'll ask her myself. ;-)

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Keep digging. I would try and climb out of a hole I was digging before it was so deep that I couldn't climb out any more. But yeah, I guess I'm the thick one.

    Your sort of fun now and then but your starting to be like a cancer on our forum here.

    What's your girlfriend up to these days? I hear she is pretty cute, I hope to meet her at some point. Does she ski? I could teach her if she would like. Don't answer that yet, I'll hopefully run into her at some point and then I'll ask her myself. ;-)
    OUR forum
    OUR Trails

    There in lies the problem..

    Are you kidding, the GF isnt cute, shes mad smoking hot- especially in bibs as she does 3 foot drops to flat without silly little transition ramps.

    Your not her type, keep dreaming. So you're single, frustrated, with a 42 lb bike alone in the cold....LOL!

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    OUR forum
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    There in lies the problem..

    Are you kidding, the GF isnt cute, shes mad smoking hot- especially in bibs as she does 3 foot drops to flat without silly little transition ramps.

    Your not her type, keep dreaming. So you're single, frustrated, with a 42 lb bike alone in the cold....LOL!
    Oh I don't know, she might actually like me. I'll keep an eye out.

  63. #63
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    I could show her how to flow and always catch those smooth transitions, if you know what I mean. 3 foot drops to flat is like white people dancing. I'm starting to understand what level of riding you are at. Keep talking.

  64. #64
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    Back to my skill level. Sad strategy.
    Desperate like huh.


    Youre funny. But no, not clever enough to handle her IQ. Keep dreaming lonely boy.












    Shouldnt you be at a starbucks trying to meet girls or something? You are rather here talking to ME?? ha ha ha now THATS Funny
    Last edited by Acrophobe; 11-27-2011 at 09:30 AM.

  65. #65
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    Lol

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    Back to my skill level..LOL
    Youre funny. But no, not whitty enough to handle her IQ. Keep dreaming.
    If I were hanging out with her she wouldn't be interested in talking if you know what I'm saying. After hanging out with a guy that thinks 3 foot drops to flat is a good measure of skill I'm sure she would love to learn how to really flow a good ride with a guy that has some real skills.

  67. #67
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    Popcorn! Fresh, hot popcorn! Get your popcorn!
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you値l crash.
    - Julie Furtado

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    Popcorn! Fresh, hot popcorn! Get your popcorn!
    Pass the butter please!
    I dig dirt!

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    Yes...this one has more potential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nybike1971 View Post
    For those of you that keep crying over a little silly dirt and rock ramp that was built on Chuck Wagon, I would encourage you to look riders left of the wash where the ramp is. That is the A line. Not the dumb slabs of rock that used to be there before the dirt and crush was used to build the ramp, nor the possibly even dumber ramp. Climb that line and I'll be impressed. I couldn't clean it but I have heard good riders make short work of it.

    Also, you may want to try and to ride something other than Broken Arrow or Llama. It seems like these are the only trails you keep bringing up over and over again. There is so much unadulterated tech that I enjoyed with my wife this past week in Sedona that it didn't even occur to me to stop and ponder at a couple of rocks stacked here or there on the trails.

    Given that you enjoy making fun of my pictures, here is another one for you:



    If you don't recognize where this little roller is, ask TD he may take you to it. Careful though, there are some pretty exposed bits on this trail.

    By the way, you mentioned that you did trail work in NJ and NY. Care to share on which trails I should look for your handy work? I have ridden most technical trails and trail systems around here and know many of the long-time trailbuilders. I am sure they'd love to hear you said hello.

    I flew back from Sedona on Friday and because of the unseasonably warm spell we have been enjoying, today I had a chance to ride the lifts for closing day at one of our local DH spots (Plattekill). This particular mountain is well known for its raw, natural steep lines. It would certainly lose a lot of its character if people started smoothing it out or building dirt ramps everywhere. I get your point and I think it is important to have a few voices on the side of maintaining status quo in a trail building and maintenance debate. I am willing to bet raising arizona would be giddy as a schoolgirl riding some of the Plattekill race courses; you on the other hand, I am not sure.

    Yours truly,

    the noob
    Sick shot nybike1971! Thanks for your post. I have heard good thing about Plattekill. I did get to ride at MountainCreek about 5 years back and it was awesome. Where are you from? I was born in Nyack. Cheers, Josh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    I saw what the FS did at LLAMMA, thats just an ugly ramp, thats boring up, or down. It was way more fun before when I had to hang off the back end of my saddle to make it down the chunk line that was there for the last two years...yes the noobs watched.

    Indeed, when I had my XC bike I would dismount but on any other bike it was rideable, its a waste of hours and time, did not divert water, and erased a trail feature. Just like the animated gif of the lil baby drop that someone was so proud of on chuck wagon, you took the climb the dude once enjoyed in the still photo enjoyed and obliterated it, so the noobs could jump. Really? you need a transition ramp there?

    Please..learn to ride the terrain. There is a reason I LIVE here and have yet to ride Chuck Wagon...you figure it out.
    For those of you that keep crying over a little silly dirt and rock ramp that was built on Chuck Wagon, I would encourage you to look riders left of the wash where the ramp is. That is the A line. Not the dumb slabs of rock that used to be there before the dirt and crush was used to build the ramp, nor the possibly even dumber ramp. Climb that line and I'll be impressed. I couldn't clean it but I have heard good riders make short work of it.

    Also, you may want to try and to ride something other than Broken Arrow or Llama. It seems like these are the only trails you keep bringing up over and over again. There is so much unadulterated tech that I enjoyed with my wife this past week in Sedona that it didn't even occur to me to stop and ponder at a couple of rocks stacked here or there on the trails.

    Given that you enjoy making fun of my pictures, here is another one for you:



    If you don't recognize where this little roller is, ask TD he may take you to it. Careful though, there are some pretty exposed bits on this trail.

    By the way, you mentioned that you did trail work in NJ and NY. Care to share on which trails I should look for your handy work? I have ridden most technical trails and trail systems around here and know many of the long-time trailbuilders. I am sure they'd love to hear you said hello.

    I flew back from Sedona on Friday and because of the unseasonably warm spell we have been enjoying, today I had a chance to ride the lifts for closing day at one of our local DH spots (Plattekill). This particular mountain is well known for its raw, natural steep lines. It would certainly lose a lot of its character if people started smoothing it out or building dirt ramps everywhere. I get your point and I think it is important to have a few voices on the side of maintaining status quo in a trail building and maintenance debate. I am willing to bet raising arizona would be giddy as a schoolgirl riding some of the Plattekill race courses; you on the other hand, I am not sure.

    Yours truly,

    the noob

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Sick shot nybike1971! Thanks for your post. I have heard good thing about Plattekill. I did get to ride at MountainCreek about 5 years back and it was awesome. Where are you from? I was born in Nyack. Cheers, Josh
    Hey Josh,

    I think I ran into you and your friend on Hogwash the day you filmed the Sick Boy video. I stopped where you guys were hanging out with the dogs and to wait for my wife to catch up.

    I live near Albany, NY. It's no desert Shangri-La like Sedona but the riding in the Hudson Valley, Western Massachusetts (Berkshires), Catskill mountains, Adirondacks, and Vermont is quite good and varied. One thing I loved about Sedona (and I am sure Flagstaff is no different) is how much riding there is right outside of your front door. You guys are so spoiled!

    Mountain Creek and Plattekill are both really fun mountains. Mountain Creek has more jump trails and man-made features but also some incredibly rocky and technical DH trails, while Plattekill is almost entirely natural with steep fall-line chutes and rough, technical run-ins and landings.

    Look me up if you are back this way, I'll show you some good trails!

    Cheers,

    Luca

  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acrophobe View Post
    Well then thats funny my last trip to Moab I didnt see ANY of that, nor did I when I lived in Grand Junction.

    Youre full of BS.

    I saw what the FS did at LLAMMA, thats just an ugly ramp, thats boring up, or down. It was way more fun before when I had to hang off the back end of my saddle to make it down the chunk line that was there for the last two years...yes the noobs watched.

    Indeed, when I had my XC bike I would dismount but on any other bike it was rideable, its a waste of hours and time, did not divert water, and erased a trail feature. Just like the animated gif of the lil baby drop that someone was so proud of on chuck wagon, you took the climb the dude once enjoyed in the still photo enjoyed and obliterated it, so the noobs could jump. Really? you need a transition ramp there?

    Please..learn to ride the terrain. There is a reason I LIVE here and have yet to ride Chuck Wagon...you figure it out.
    There is also a reason that everyone wishes you didn't. I love how people with enough money to buy a house in Sedona think they are so entitled more then other folks. Why is this such a common theme around there? You do realize that FS land is everyones and not just for the ones that own adjacent overpriced housing right? You moved there about a year ago, maybe it would be best if you just chill for a while and figure out what is actually going on and get to know some of the folks that have been here longer and are actually very passionate about this place and doing good things for all users and their communities but instead you just go shooting your mouth off and making a complete a$$ of yourself. Honestly you need to know your place and unfortunately your moving that place further back on the pecking order the more you talk. That is why I have been telling you to keep talking or digging. Every town has an idiot and you may just be Sedona's mountain biking's best! Congratulations.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by nybike1971 View Post
    Given that you enjoy making fun of my pictures, here is another one for you:



    If you don't recognize where this little roller is, ask TD he may take you to it. Careful though, there are some pretty exposed bits on this trail.
    My guess would be Ledge-n-Airy. About the most fun 5 miles of chunk sedona has to offer.

  75. #75
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    I really need to get a XC bike. I'm so limited it kind of sucks. I wish I could buy a house in Sedona and make fun of people that can't afford to have a quiver of bikes. One of these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    As I told nybike during his stay in Sedona, I love to see pictures riders that of a spot on the ride that I did a trail improvement on. If anyone thinks that exact spot was rideable by 95% of the worlds riding population you are WRONG AGAIN. Less than 5% were able to ride it before my diligent improvement done at that exact spot.

    Now I would guess there are less than 25% that can ride it and the 200' section of trail leading up to that roll w/o dabbing. I wonder if Woahey and Acrophobe make that section. It would definitely be a skill builder for any rider wanting to improve their riding.

    There isn't much exposure on that section to make excuses about, but the tech factor is dreamy if that is what you claim you are looking for.

    TD
    That's 25% of your spode world, correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    My guess would be Ledge-n-Airy. About the most fun 5 miles of chunk sedona has to offer.
    As I told nybike during his stay in Sedona, I love to see pictures riders that of a spot on the ride that I did a trail improvement on. If anyone thinks that exact spot was rideable by 95% of the worlds riding population you are WRONG AGAIN. Less than 5% were able to ride it before my diligent improvement done at that exact spot.

    Now I would guess there are less than 25% that can ride it and the 200' section of trail leading up to that roll w/o dabbing. I wonder if Woahey and Acrophobe make that section. It would definitely be a skill builder for any rider wanting to improve their riding.

    There isn't much exposure on that section to make excuses about, but the tech factor is dreamy if that is what you claim you are looking for.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I really need to get a XC bike. I'm so limited it kind of sucks. I wish I could buy a house in Sedona and make fun of people that can't afford to have a quiver of bikes. One of these days.
    ra:

    I am still on the floor laughing.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    ra:

    I am still on the floor laughing.
    Thanks TD, I just re-read it and I'm laughing again too! I have a hard time with arrogance, especially being the hard working money poor person I am. But I'm not complaining, I am VERY rich in life! Being so I truly appreciate others I see that work hard, thanks TD for all of your efforts!

  80. #80
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    So where does this guy work? Or he doesn't? I would not be surprised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Thanks TD, I just re-read it and I'm laughing again too! I have a hard time with arrogance, especially being the hard working money poor person I am. But I'm not complaining, I am VERY rich in life! Being so I truly appreciate others I see that work hard, thanks TD for all of your efforts!
    ra:

    Thanks for the pat on the back, being the self-appointed Sedona ambassador isn't as glamorous position as many think it is. Living in Sedona and riding all our diverse trails gets me through those really low periods. These last couple of days I feel like I am on emotional roller coaster.

    Now that Acrophobe wants to buy a copy of my map maybe I can get enough CASH to buy a few groceries. I don't know how much to charge him and it seems like he could afford to pay me a reasonable price. I want to be fair, but as a Capitalist, I want my hard work to be appreciated.

    I just sent the master file to a publisher to see if it has potential as a two sided 24X18 full color map of 95% of the trails we have to offer the masses visiting Sedona. Hopefully I can make a little extra revenue to help me buy some new tools for future projects.

    Thanks for your support,

    TD

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    There is also a reason that everyone wishes you didn't.
    As long as you represent and speak for everyone.

    Wow you really get worked up over this stuff huh?


    No, I never suggest I should be more entitled.
    You did.

    On one hand you post a rad picture of you on a obstacle. On the other--You do realize this sort of obstacle is what I seek as well, and its harder and harder to come by, As trails are getting treaded in and those stupid ramps are made, we loose the opportunity to enjoy the same stuff, I bet we both like alot of the same trail features.

    Its the same reason, living in the village, I drive up to Flag rather than drive uptown in traffic in the summer, I dig the fact that the trails in FLAG have so many cool man made obstacles, many of which have go arounds, but much of which is not noob friendly.

    I have yet to see anyone look at the trails, both system and non, and how I wish i could have TrailDoc sign on to this (but he hasnt yet) but the FS also needs to be driven to really deliver a multiple lines approach if sedona is to ever become the destination TD is working to make it. Please dont misread me, hate me if you want, but while the rental business needs noob friendlyness, it would really allow riders a better scope for progression if there were rollers table tops and such, but there are none.

    If RA is the guy building the cool obstacles in FLG, then please come 'fix' sedona. thats whats broken.

    I see areas in sedona where so much potential exists as well, and its not necessarily hanging off the cowpies. I just wish the work being done was more fun-ish, thats all.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    That's 25% of your spode world, correct?
    What is spode? Please ask me the question so a simple minded person can understand. Isn't your boat filled yet?

    TD

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