Open letter to the person simplifying Hawes- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    My other ride is your mom
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    No good Open letter to the person simplifying Hawes

    To the non-adventurous shiitake eatin soul-less individual who removed rocks on Hawes:

    I’m not going to threaten you with bodily harm, but I am going to give you a good verbal bristlewashing. The rocks you removed to make the climb out of the wash were there for a reason……the earth put them there and others buttressed them to prevent erosion on a fall-line portion of the trail. Yes the climb out and semi-tech maneuver to get over those rocks sometimes throws folks overboard, crashing downslope….but it was never a slide for life type of fall. It usually resulted in nothing more than a few scratches and dings.

    I both dreaded trying this and relished the possibility of success. There was only one good way to overcome this little obstacle and I was able to do it about 50% of the time, even after knowing how to do it; I was challenged every time. By removing this, you have removed any challenge to the slope at all and made the climb out of the wash as easy as eating pie at Rock Springs. Instead, once the heavy rains come, you have made it unsustainable and possibly un-passable by enabling the rain to gouge out a rut deeper than the equatorial death-star trench.

    I learned to ride a mountain bike out at Hawes and am still learning. I started riding 9 months ago and treat Hawes like a classroom. Obstacles once considered scary and 'hike a bike' have evolved to scary and challenging to fun and challenging. Hawes offers a little of everything….flowy singletrack, rocky, but introductory tech sections in moderation and a couple of tight switchbacks. It has been the perfect incubator for skills that I would have otherwise not been able to practice on one trail. I’ve learned weight transfer skills, climbing skills, sandy skills, switchback skills, baby-head survival skills and every other kind of skills one must know to be a well rounded rider.

    Hiking a section was never seen as disgraceful by me….but perhaps it is to you. I am challenging you to rethink your attitudes to sections you can’t obviously ride. You see, every time I have to hike a section; it eats at me as it eats at you. However this is where our paths diverge. You choose the easy track where I chose the challenging track. You choose the easy track by modifying the trail to suit your current riding ability. I chose the challenging track by forcing myself to ride something beyond my ability in order that I develop skills greater than those I currently posses. If I can’t get it the first time, I back up and try again. If I fail a second time, I try it one last time. If I fail three times, I walk it and confidently move on with the knowledge that I will be back to try it another day. By modifying the trail to suit your needs, you are not only robbing yourself of a “growth” opportunity, but you are denying myself and others that same opportunity.

    I want to think that you are not on this forum reading this because we are all here because we care deeply about this sport we undertake….however I also realize that you may be lurking in the shadows as you were when you removed those rocks.

    Hawes does not challenge me like it did on those first tentative pedal strokes 9 months ago. Yet it still gets my heart going and still throws me to the ground, reminding me that I still have yet to learn a few things. Your acts have rendered this section no more fun than riding a sidewalk uphill.

    So thanks to you: you non-adventures, shiitake eating soul-less individual. Thank you for ruining something I was looking forward to and thanks for robbing me and countless others the ability to grow outside of themselves. May the arms of a thousand cholla carress your body while flatting and cramping.




  2. #2
    sprocket
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    To the non-adventurous shiitake eatin soul-less individual who removed rocks on Hawes:

    I’m not going to threaten you with bodily harm, but I am going to give you a good verbal bristlewashing. The rocks you removed to make the climb out of the wash were there for a reason……the earth put them there and others buttressed them to prevent erosion on a fall-line portion of the trail. Yes the climb out and semi-tech maneuver to get over those rocks sometimes throws folks overboard, crashing downslope….but it was never a slide for life type of fall. It usually resulted in nothing more than a few scratches and dings.

    I both dreaded trying this and relished the possibility of success. There was only one good way to overcome this little obstacle and I was able to do it about 50% of the time, even after knowing how to do it; I was challenged every time. By removing this, you have removed any challenge to the slope at all and made the climb out of the wash as easy as eating pie at Rock Springs. Instead, once the heavy rains come, you have made it unsustainable and possibly un-passable by enabling the rain to gouge out a rut deeper than the equatorial death-star trench.

    I learned to ride a mountain bike out at Hawes and am still learning. I started riding 9 months ago and treat Hawes like a classroom. Obstacles once considered scary and 'hike a bike' have evolved to scary and challenging to fun and challenging. Hawes offers a little of everything….flowy singletrack, rocky, but introductory tech sections in moderation and a couple of tight switchbacks. It has been the perfect incubator for skills that I would have otherwise not been able to practice on one trail. I’ve learned weight transfer skills, climbing skills, sandy skills, switchback skills, baby-head survival skills and every other kind of skills one must know to be a well rounded rider.

    Hiking a section was never seen as disgraceful by me….but perhaps it is to you. I am challenging you to rethink your attitudes to sections you can’t obviously ride. You see, every time I have to hike a section; it eats at me as it eats at you. However this is where our paths diverge. You choose the easy track where I chose the challenging track. You choose the easy track by modifying the trail to suit your current riding ability. I chose the challenging track by forcing myself to ride something beyond my ability in order that I develop skills greater than those I currently posses. If I can’t get it the first time, I back up and try again. If I fail a second time, I try it one last time. If I fail three times, I walk it and confidently move on with the knowledge that I will be back to try it another day. By modifying the trail to suit your needs, you are not only robbing yourself of a “growth” opportunity, but you are denying myself and others that same opportunity.

    I want to think that you are not on this forum reading this because we are all here because we care deeply about this sport we undertake….however I also realize that you may be lurking in the shadows as you were when you removed those rocks.

    Hawes does not challenge me like it did on those first tentative pedal strokes 9 months ago. Yet it still gets my heart going and still throws me to the ground, reminding me that I still have yet to learn a few things. Your acts have rendered this section no more fun than riding a sidewalk uphill.

    So thanks to you: you non-adventures, shiitake eating soul-less individual. Thank you for ruining something I was looking forward to and thanks for robbing me and countless others the ability to grow outside of themselves. May the arms of a thousand cholla carress your body while flatting and cramping.
    No problem!

  3. #3
    my dog's Frisbee launcher
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    Maadjurguer, well said.
    I have never ridden Hawes but hope to some day.

    you should post a copy at the place in question....and leave a spot for comments
    if the guy sees that most of us feel the same way you do, maybe he'll stand down and stop this crap.
    you can sign my name to it.

    Cheers Billy
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  4. #4
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    If i think it is where it is at, dont know why, of all places, they were removed there.

    maadjurguer, wanna go put them back? I am game... LMK. Heck, why not pave the whole trail...

  5. #5
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    Tis the Season!
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  6. #6
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    It prolly is where you think....it had been getting more challenging over the past few weeks because it tended to suck your front wheel up, stalling it out and pitching you to the right and down the slope if you did not have your weight forward and centered. I loved it because it was evolving....every time I thought I had it licked....it changed on me forcing me to learn something else subtle. I saw it as the most dynamic thing out there....it's changed more over the past 9 months than any other point on the trail IMO. Perhaps that just means it was always un-sustainable.....perhaps I'm just ignorant...i dunno.




  7. #7
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    Equatorial Death Star trench...heh.

    p.

  8. #8
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    MJ. Great write-up

    Where's this at? Only two wash crossings I can think of fitting your description are if you make left instead of right at T to go up Mine, or after decending Mine from east to west. Both have pretty steep but short climbs out of the wash.

    I've noticed a couple other spots in the last month or so that minor obstacles have been magically disappearing too. Too much for just rain erosion.

  9. #9
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    Your on the money with what you said, I too have had problems with people making a rideable section (with practice and skill) too easy. I ranted on a recent white tanks thread here a week ago about the same type of thing on other trails. Learn to ride and become a better rider, challenging yourself or get a road bike or stay on gravel roads, right!
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  10. #10
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    Same crap goes on at T-100. I see rocks moved out of the trail all the time. There was even a section were some numb-skull brushed and swept a section of loose rocks out of a wash so that the turn to the ascent would be easier.

    I was gonna post a few weeks ago about a biker who left a shredded tube at the mine on Hawes. I picked it up and biked it out but it astounds me that there are people out there with so little regard for others and the trail itself.
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  11. #11
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    Now if a mountain biker went out and fixed a trail that wasn’t rideable so they could ride it that would be ok. But if a hiker go’s out and fixes a trail so they are more able to hike it with out getting hurt that’s not ok.
    Now I’m not for any one getting hurt on a trail no matter who you are.

  12. #12
    My other ride is your mom
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowrider
    Now if a mountain biker went out and fixed a trail that wasn’t rideable so they could ride it that would be ok. But if a hiker go’s out and fixes a trail so they are more able to hike it with out getting hurt that’s not ok.
    Now I’m not for any one getting hurt on a trail no matter who you are.

    I'm not sure what you are trying to say with this comment....but if you are saying that a hiker was responsible for this.....I'm pretty confident that you are wrong. The section was not an obstacle to hiking.....I should know....I've hike-a-biked it plenty. It is clear by the work someone did that they intended it to be easier to BIKE.


    Besides....I hike as well.....without my bike....and it never occurred to me to "Improve" a section of trail just so I did not have to lift my leg here a little more, or climb up over something. The same ethos applies here.....nature makes it so, so deal with it.




  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=hfy108]Same crap goes on at T-100. I see rocks moved out of the trail all the time. There was even a section were some numb-skull brushed and swept a section of loose rocks out of a wash so that the turn to the ascent would be easier.QUOTE]

    I noticed that about T100 too. The climbs just west of the 51, when you take a left after going through the tunnel, have always been covered with loose rock. I've always struggled cleaning the big climb on the backside of the mtn. Yesterday, all the loose rock was gone! I flew up that climb that normally eats my lunch like it was nothing. At first, I was happy, but then I realized it was so much easier because the biggest challenge, the loose rock, was gone. I then felt a little robbed. So I don't know if people have been clearing that rock from the trail, or if the recent rains helped clear it off, but it's almost too easy now. All the rock is what gives T100 it's personality. If you don't like riding or hiking over them, ride or hike somewhere else.

  14. #14
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    The same ethos applies here.....nature makes it so, so deal with it. What’s that have to with it nature didn’t put the trail there in the first place ether a hike or a bike did. So what if some yahoo changed the trail who knows may be it was me. Go back and put the rocks back some day some one else will move them once more.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hfy108
    I was gonna post a few weeks ago about a biker who left a shredded tube at the mine on Hawes. I picked it up and biked it out but it astounds me that there are people out there with so little regard for others and the trail itself.
    Yea, I pulled a tossed tube off the scenic overlook a couple of week ago. Thanks to him though, for the valve for my tubeless setup! YA!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowrider
    So what if some yahoo changed the trail who knows may be it was me.


    ummmmmmm.....OK




  17. #17
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    Anyone got a jackhammer? I'm gonna go and "fix" the waterfall at SOMO.

    I don't feel very safe hiking that section let alone even attempting to bike it

  18. #18
    dirt visionary
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    hike-a-bike at Hawes thats a new one
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  19. #19
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    We have the same problem in SC... When trees fall we build log ramps whenever possible, but the woosie crowd has to come around and chainsaw them all out... I'm all for the leaf blowing and cutting the waist high and above logs, but the stuff that makes the ride interesting and challenging should never be removed because a noob can't traverse it.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    hike-a-bike at Hawes thats a new one
    who would want to ride in Mesa anyways? I mean, really, come on.

  21. #21
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    I know.....it's humbling to think that hike a bike Hawes used to be in my dictionary, but we all learned somewhere....and that somewhere involved hike a bike....no matter how embarrassing that may have been.....




  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsittman
    Anyone got a jackhammer? I'm gonna go and "fix" the waterfall at SOMO.

    I don't feel very safe hiking that section let alone even attempting to bike it
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsittman
    Anyone got a jackhammer? I'm gonna go and "fix" the waterfall at SOMO.

    I don't feel very safe hiking that section let alone even attempting to bike it

    That thing has already been overly sanitized. Its basically one smooth ramp now.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly
    who would want to ride in Mesa anyways? I mean, really, come on.
    there's a nice canal right next to Hawes
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    there's a nice canal right next to Hawes
    no kidding?

  26. #26
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    Hey...not to take myself too seriously, I'll jack my own thread based upon the comments. How long do you all suppose it takes (how many posts) for a serious thread to wander off into the ether of sarcasm and non-relevance? Not counting yetisurly's comments....this one was somewhere in the 5-7 range....with yetisurly's comment....it was dead on arrival. Perhaps we could have a color gradation at the point threads derail.....those posts above the red mark the intent of the thread....below it, the bilge of comments by folks trying to escape the reality of their job by exhibiting anti-social behavior they otherwise could not get away with at work. Perhaps one could write a graduate thesis based on this trend, deducing social trends from the threads themselves.....perhaps this writer is himself a j@cka$$.




  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    Hey...not to take myself too seriously, I'll jack my own thread based upon the comments. How long do you all suppose it takes (how many posts) for a serious thread to wander off into the ether of sarcasm and non-relevance? Not counting yetisurly's comments....this one was somewhere in the 5-7 range....with yetisurly's comment....it was dead on arrival. Perhaps we could have a color gradation at the point threads derail.....those posts above the red mark the intent of the thread....below it, the bilge of comments by folks trying to escape the reality of their job by exhibiting anti-social behavior they otherwise could not get away with at work. Perhaps one could write a graduate thesis based on this trend, deducing social trends from the threads themselves.....perhaps this writer is himself a j@cka$$.

    perhaps.

  28. #28
    dirt visionary
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly
    who would want to ride in Mesa anyways? I mean, really, come on.
    Ha funny but not....... Hawes is a very nice place to ride and offers some of the valleys best riding and views IMO if good xc single track is what your after . Much better than any Canal path.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly
    perhaps.

    you know what yetisurly....I'll help push you over from the realm of uncertainty regarding that last statement by stating the following: While staring at your avatar for the last minute or so, I believe I can see something in the pattern......it looks like a woman pushing a baby stroller....wait.....no, it's a 6.....or maybe it's a padlock......dang....lost it....




  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    you know what yetisurly....I'll help push you over from the realm of uncertainty regarding that last statement by stating the following: While staring at your avatar for the last minute or so, I believe I can see something in the pattern......it looks like a woman pushing a baby stroller....wait.....no, it's a 6.....or maybe it's a padlock......dang....lost it....
    well, okay then.

  31. #31
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    wow how do you "simplify" Hawes!
    "Its like Church to me, Like Church is, what it is for other people"

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly
    who would want to ride in Mesa anyways? I mean, really, come on.
    Agreed! I only go there to get my Meth.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    hike-a-bike at Hawes thats a new one
    Not to everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by RidingRiot
    wow how do you "simplify" Hawes!
    Really? There are definitely sections on Hawes that are challenging, at least to me. I guess the more people who master Hawes and move on means fewer I'll get in the way of as I labor up cardiac hill or pick and choose my line down the back-side of Mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    I know.....it's humbling to think that hike a bike Hawes used to be in my dictionary, but we all learned somewhere....and that somewhere involved hike a bike....no matter how embarrassing that may have been.....
    Why would that be embarrassing? I did some serious hiking up to the AT&T tower a few weeks ago.

    I'd be more offended by someone who holds himself out as an expert rider by never admitting that there is a definite learning curve involved in mountain biking. It's just that sometimes we need to walk our bikes up that curve a little.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidingRiot
    wow how do you "simplify" Hawes!
    By riding it more and imrpoving ones skills.

  35. #35
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    hey maadjuergerer! i haven't been on that climb since that last ride there with you! remember? LOL. yeah i agree with all your thoughts . i took the right hand plunge and got up, went back, and tried it again. i have made that climb a hundred times, but sometimes you have an off day. thats why i love riding the mountain, only it should get to decide who the days victim will,or won't be . so yeah, leave things the way they are or risk being spayed and nuetered by the trail ram. "thats me"
    RAM speed: UP, UP, and away....!

  36. #36
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    ... Let's do a stake-out and bust the person/people.

    Sanitizing is going on in several sections, not just the section you mentioned. I half-wondered if it was the "park" doing it, but now you've got me wondering.
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

  37. #37
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    Who is Richard Clasby ?

  38. #38
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  39. #39
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    I ride out there once every couple of weeks and can not picture where you would be talking about?????

    And AZ dog come on I know you can get some from one of your neighbors.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo
    Who is Richard Clasby ?
    He was a lineman who was electrocuted and killed a few months ago. I think he was working on a line in the Hawes / Usery area. That cross is a memorial half way up the hill.
    "Because I was profiling and it looked stolen.
    90% of everything in my neighborhood is stolen." - Me

  41. #41
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    He was an SRP lineman who was killed (electrocuted) last November while working on the power lines that serve the radio towers. First lineman fatality for SRP since 1984. We Googled it after DG took Jim Beam and me on a stellar ride which included that descent, and it brought a bit of melancholy to the post-ride buzz. May he R.I.P.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo
    Who is Richard Clasby ?
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  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteKis
    ... Let's do a stake-out and bust the person/people.

    Sanitizing is going on in several sections, not just the section you mentioned. I half-wondered if it was the "park" doing it, but now you've got me wondering.
    If I had to make a totally unsubstantiated guess, I'd say it's our friends at Las Sendas.

    p.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo
    Who is Richard Clasby ?
    Here ya go,

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...ution1110.html
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    If I had to make a totally unsubstantiated guess, I'd say it's our friends at Las Sendas.

    p.
    Dam, Las Sendas dirt bags.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    How long do you all suppose it takes (how many posts) for a serious thread to wander off into the ether of sarcasm and non-relevance?
    Too fast IMO. There are a few childish folk on this board. You know who you are....

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav
    Dam, Las Sendas dirt bags.
    Uh huh. Keep talking smack, R.M. Boy.

    And Paul B, nobody I know who lives and rides here would so much as move a grain of sand intentionally, although, heh, I admit I have plowed a few sections smooth with my FACE!!!

    I'm sure it's an, umm, "seasonal" rider, is my guess, although, it's just that; a guess.
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

  47. #47
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    I agree with Paul . When I was riding Hawes daily I would run into 1 or 2 hikers from las Sendas that made it there duty to remove rocks from the trail in spots and block of any side option like the lil drop/jump by the intersection of Big saguro and oh hell forgot the name of it but its a connector that runs east to west/vise versa.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    I agree with Paul . When I was riding Hawes daily I would run into 1 or 2 hikers from las Sendas that made it there duty to remove rocks from the trail in spots and block of any side option like the lil drop/jump by the intersection of Big saguro and oh hell forgot the name of it but its a connector that runs east to west/vise versa.
    some call that drop the Church, cause its the 4 way intersection where everyone comes together. The connecter has never to my knowledge had a name.

    yes it may be some hikers. but, Hawes also attracts many newer and intermediate riders (most of them riding low-end Specializeds from DNA -- ooooh snap! ). I regularly see more people out there without clips, riding clothes etc etc than on Somo. Nothing wrong with that...just saying. Supposing it is some of these folks, they genuinely might not know any better and odds are good they are not on this board. If you see it, first try to explain nicely as they may have no idea. Same for the hikers, maybe they think they are helping - I've seen an increase in traffic over the last few years where you used to never see hikers out there.

    I have seen especially in the last year or 2 as Hawes has gotten more popular that the harder sections are getting harders due to more ruts and erosion - i think that is great!

    build more B-lines, there are lots of spots right next to the trail where you can do that.

    I'm still not sure where maadjurguer is talking about...is it the wash at the bottom of the northwest corner of the system, very close to the bottom of Power road?
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteKis
    I admit I have plowed a few sections smooth with my FACE!!!
    .

    uhh.... You're not doing it right

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    Hawes also attracts many newer and intermediate riders (most of them riding low-end Specializeds from DNA -- ooooh snap! ).



    that sounds like me


  51. #51
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    Yeah Jason thats the only spot that resembles the are he is speaking off.


    Here's my idea Write a note explaining that trail Sanitation destroys the experience and post it on the main board off Power.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo


    that sounds like me

    its all good...Hawes is where I started and it took me a year to try Mine, there is plenty to enjoy for all levels of rider out there. I'm just teasing the DNA folks cause one time i was riding iwth Don and he was whining about the traffic and then sorta said hey i sold all those bikes!
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Write a note explaining that trail Sanitation destroys the experience and post it on the main board off Power.
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteKis
    Uh huh. Keep talking smack, R.M. Boy.
    No one From R.M.R. would move any rocks, cause were all hard core and all. Kinda like the other side of the tracks.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

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    Hmmm… this one got me thinking. I hate that. I always end up writing a diatribe when this happens. If you have the patience here it goes

    Seemd like this is a bit subjective, especially the part about what is ‘natural’ and what’s not, after all a trail is a man made route. I’ve only rode the Hawes trail a precious few times so I’m not familiar with your spot. I’ll take your word for it that in this case the character of the trail has been diminished.

    So that you know my mountain bike background, I started riding trail 100 and it’s various spurs in 1989. I’ve been riding ever since. What made me think about your post was my experience tonight. We rode trail 100 and the loop north of 100 and south of Thunderbird between 7th street and Cave Creek road.

    On 100, dropping down of the top (going northwest) of the hill above 12 street there is a sharp right hand turn to some imbedded rocks. It’s very rideable but the rocks right at the apex of the turn have on occasion caught enough of my front wheel to put me is a very uncomfortable nose wheelie… serious pucker factor. Tonight, the turn is smoothed out; I was able to carry some speed into the bank so I had plenty of speed to roll over the imbedded rocks just after the turn. The net effect is that trail has more flow and frankly is more fun.

    After that (and against my memory) these guys I ride with went up a spur that leads to the top of the ridge between trail 100 and Thunderbird. I remember this section from years ago as a largely unrideable rock garden on both ends. I was very happy to find that the trail maintenance folks have been hard at work. It’s still a challenge, but totally rideable even by an old fart like me.

    So… while I certainly respect your desire to ride a tough section like your spot on Hawes, I’m not so sure that this issue is nearly as black and white as many of these post seem to indicate.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav
    No one From R.M.R. would move any rocks, cause were all hard core and all. Kinda like the other side of the tracks.
    Of course you are! Training on TRW would make ANYONE "hard core". It was only a matter of time before you RMR people could rage on Hawes. (Okay, so, I know how you ride, and fair enough; you are hard core... but still... you live in RMR, which just negates the whole thing! )
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo
    uhh.... You're not doing it right
    If I get up with this... .... then I'm doing it right! Falling, that is.
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

  58. #58
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    If you're not falling, you're doing something wrong....at least that's what I tell folks skiing. As for the location, it's on Big Saguaro....I know, I know, I know....Big Saguaro is the most benign section, but the section I'm describing is the only one which which changed over the summer rains and made it more difficult....and fun IMO...but now this. Picture yourself looking at the gravel/rock pit on the west side of power from the intersection of Saddleback, Mine and Big Saguaro. Now, take the downhill on Saguaro and descend into the first (immediate wash) from the intersection, cross the wash, climb out, pedal hard for the downhill ride.....suck up the braking bumps, sweep into that banking left turn, then the banking right turn, then the last left turn on the rocky descent into the wash, turning right to head up and out of the..........THERE.....can you picture that climb out. In the summer it got rutted, and exposed some rocks. The rutts eventually filled in....in large part to my and others tires slipping on the edges. The rocks were located across the trail and served as natural erosion control....or some wise person put them there. There was also a bigger rock in the middle of the trail that you had to either go left or right of climbing out (coming down, I always went over it). Most folks went right around the rock in the middle when going up....which sometimes forced your front tire to stall in a pocket between the big rock and the lower rocks. This was usually followed by the rider pitching to the right, over the slope and sliding downhill, off-trail, head first....now, someone removed all the rocks and all is left is an evenly sloped dirt surface. Now....if I'm wrong here....someone call me out on it because, like I said, I'm relatively new to this sport.....but it seems to me this only increased the potential for serious rutting rather than decreasing it. Not to mention any lack of challenge....no matter how "basic" this may seem to the "LORDS OF ALL THINGS BIKE".

    As for the Las Sendas comments....I too live in LS and ride at Hawes a lot. I have never seen anyone (hiker or biker) modifying the trail, but if I do....I'll do as Cholla suggests and gently explain why it is discouraged.




  59. #59
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    [QUOTE=CoyoteKis]Of course you are! Training on TRW would make ANYONE "hard core".QUOTE]

    Yes, I'm down with the TRW Gnar Gnar. I did skin my knee there once. I just hope no one tries to sanitize that bad a$$ trail.

    "Okay, so, I know how you ride, and fair enough; you are hard core... (+1) but still... you live in RMR, which just negates the whole thing!"(-2)

    In my hood I have 2 saguaro's and 2 plam trees living side by side in haromny, now that's gnar.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteKis
    Uh huh. Keep talking smack, R.M. Boy.

    And Paul B, nobody I know who lives and rides here would so much as move a grain of sand intentionally, although, heh, I admit I have plowed a few sections smooth with my FACE!!!

    I'm sure it's an, umm, "seasonal" rider, is my guess, although, it's just that; a guess.
    Hey D!

    So here's the thing: I've been hitting Hawes since...1992 or so. When did Las Sendas go in? 2000ish? Maybe a little earlier. Anyway, that development totally transformed the area. I don't know how much you know/remember about when the developers first showed up -- they locked up an entire trailhead for months during construction! There was even some mumbling about them taking it for themselves. I mean, the development's name means "the paths", right? They pretty much sold the Hawes trail system as a community amenity from day one.

    I'm sure not everyone in Las Sendas is evil. You're probably not evil. Kathleen's parents are probably not evil. Fellow friend posters in F66 who also happen to live in Las Sendas are probably not evil. I'm just saying what I saw: When Las Sendas started filling up, the trails started filling up with a LOT OF NEW PEOPLE. New hikers. New cyclists. New everything. I guess it was inevitable. I'll still blame Las Sendas.

    Call me old-fashioned, but I liked it better when Hawes was a 40 minute drive for everyone, we weren't riding past back yards, and the 202 didn't deliver the whole Valley right to the trailhead.

    p.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    Hey D!

    So here's the thing: I've been hitting Hawes since...1992 or so. When did Las Sendas go in? 2000ish? Maybe a little earlier. Anyway, that development totally transformed the area. I don't know how much you know/remember about when the developers first showed up -- they locked up an entire trailhead for months during construction! There was even some mumbling about them taking it for themselves. I mean, the development's name means "the paths", right? They pretty much sold the Hawes trail system as a community amenity from day one.

    I'm sure not everyone in Las Sendas is evil. You're probably not evil. Kathleen's parents are probably not evil. Fellow friend posters in F66 who also happen to live in Las Sendas are probably not evil. I'm just saying what I saw: When Las Sendas started filling up, the trails started filling up with a LOT OF NEW PEOPLE. New hikers. New cyclists. New everything. I guess it was inevitable. I'll still blame Las Sendas.

    Call me old-fashioned, but I liked it better when Hawes was a 40 minute drive for everyone, we weren't riding past back yards, and the 202 didn't deliver the whole Valley right to the trailhead.

    p.
    I have to say, respectfully, that you are WRONG Paul: I am probably evil.


    As to the rest, I'll respectfully say, you are probably RIGHT. I only moved here 5 years ago, and only started consistently mountain biking 2 years ago. I don't know a thing about the history of Hawes and how Las Sendas impacted the trails but I can only guess, and what you said confirmed it! Bet it drove the pre/non-Las Sendas riders insane. My disclaimer is only that the people I know who ride and run those trails, would never eff with it. We (okay, I'm trying to sound cool... THEY...) hate that the trails aren't challenging enough as it is. (The place still remains a challenge for me, esp now that I'm on a rigid single speed. It's ALL NEW, baby!) But I hear ya. And I agree.

    So does that mean I should stop telling people, "Welcome to MY sandbox", when they pass? *snicker* I admit... I see everyone who doesn't live in Las Sendas as a bit of a "visitor". SO bad. I know. I bring shame to my ancestors. Shame.
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

  62. #62
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    I see your point Paul B....I'm a native Arizonan and have witnessed a lot of changes. I just moved to the LS area 2 years ago....and only started mtn biking 9 months ago....and even in that short time-frame, I've seen changes to the trails. So.....for those of you who have been hitting Hawes since bell road was 2 lanes.....sorry for me being part of the problem. However....since I do live in LS, I also feel a duty to preserve what we do have there now....I can't do anything about the past or how the developers behaved...I can only be vested into the area when i moved here. This thread is part of that effort. Picking up trash when I see it is part of that effort. Smiling, slowing down, asking hikers how they are doing and saying "Have a Great Day" is part of that effort....and lastly, doing my best to edjumacate folks as to the ethics of the trail for all users out on the trail is part of that effort.

    I realize Hawes is no longer pristine singletrack....but it could get a lot wider....like DC wider....unless folks work to preserve what we have now. What's next in this hellish scenario.....ohh.....I suppose some of those tough rock areas on the climb up Twisted Sister could be sanitized and smoothed out thus rendering a smooth flowy trail........scary huh?




  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfndav

    In my hood I have 2 saguaro's and 2 plam trees living side by side in haromny, now that's gnar.
    No, that's BI-POLAR. heh-heh But to each his own. (/hijack of thread)
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    They pretty much sold the Hawes trail system as a community amenity from day one.
    p.
    Paul,

    I was under the impression that Hawes was part of the Tonto National forest. Do you know if that’s correct?

    I moved to Arizona less than 2 years ago, and landed in Red Mountain Ranch completely by accident. I feel very lucky to have this trail system in my back yard. Much as if I was to have landed at the base a large ski resort with a season pass. The snow boarding equipment in my garage would be getting worn out just like my bike is now. I do wish I could have found this sport earlier in my life and could have had the experiences that many of you who have been around here for many years have had. But I have what I have and I’m making the best of it. And I love your book; it’s much more informative than that cartoon book by that other guy.

    Thanks,
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  65. #65
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    Dude, Hawes is totally part of the Tonto NF. Which is what makes the Las Sendas attitude all the more galling. It's like the douche homeowners along the edge of SoMo who run private trails out of their backyards and water the desert so it'll look pretty for them.

    EDIT: And by "the Las Sendas attitude" I mean the developers. Not the probably-not-evil residents who are doing the right thing.

    p.

  66. #66
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    I'm only evil when I'm hungover....so on Saturdays




  67. #67
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    Quick suggestion--let's go ride there this Sat and we can show each other how to ride better and stop pissing and moaning about the trail sanitation.
    I agree with most comments here about how certain areas have gotten easier but with the recent rains it's def made some interesting changes to some of the easier areas.

    7am--Walgreen's FIP 7:15 AM---Any takers???

    AZ XC

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteKis
    No, that's BI-POLAR. heh-heh But to each his own. (/hijack of thread)
    BI-POLAR, That rings a bell, where have I heard that one before?

    (can O worms)
    Last edited by surfndav; 01-15-2009 at 09:52 AM.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ XC
    7am--Walgreen's FIP 7:15 AM---Any takers???
    I'm down for that.....see you at Walgreen's.




  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ XC
    Quick suggestion--let's go ride there this Sat and we can show each other how to ride better and stop pissing and moaning about the trail sanitation.
    I agree with most comments here about how certain areas have gotten easier but with the recent rains it's def made some interesting changes to some of the easier areas.

    7am--Walgreen's FIP 7:15 AM---Any takers???

    AZ XC
    I'd love to, but MBAA starts Saturday, so I'll get cha next time... I hope.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  71. #71
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    cool-I'll be riding a green Inbred SS

    ...and no I haven't been able to clean Cardiac on it (yet) Maybe Sat will be my lucky day.

  72. #72
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    ....blue HiFi.




  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ XC
    Quick suggestion--let's go ride there this Sat and we can show each other how to ride better and stop pissing and moaning about the trail sanitation.
    I agree with most comments here about how certain areas have gotten easier but with the recent rains it's def made some interesting changes to some of the easier areas.

    7am--Walgreen's FIP 7:15 AM---Any takers???

    AZ XC
    Please do not leave any tire tread on the happy little Trail Runner who will be out there around that time, tearing up the trail with running shoes. She plays a mean game of Chicken with anyone not willing to share the trails. Jes sayin'.
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

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