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  1. #1
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    One Day in Flagstaff...

    I may actually have 2 depending on my family's schedule, but I'm going to plan on riding Labor Day, Sept. 7th. We're staying in downtown Flagstaff and I'll need to rent a bike. Any recommendations on a good intermediate to low expert trail system I could ride for a few hours? I'd also like to know about reputable bike stores to rent from?

    I found Absolute Bikes and they have bikes like my own (Spec. Stumpy FSR elite) but I wasn't sure if there was any place better.

    I live in Kansas City and normally ride the somewhat infamous Landahl Park so I'm used to rocky technical trails. I'd be open for anything you all recommend!

    Thanks,

    Kevin

  2. #2
    pedaller
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    Read the visitors sticky at the top of the forum.

    Mt. Elden

    Bring your lungs.

    You'll have a great time.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  3. #3
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    Kansas City is at about 880 ft above sea level and Flagstaff is at about 6900 ft above sea level.

    The trails on Mt Eldon ascend steeply nearly 2,400 vertical feet to an elevation of about
    9,300 feet.

    Unless you've been doing some secret, high elevation training or have access to a "tank",
    you're going to be gasping for air beginning the moment you step out of your vehicle to
    unload and get ready for the ride.

    Most of the awesome riding that I've done there is an "earn it" type of riding -- meaning that
    you have to climb for extended periods to enjoy some great views and descents.

    The trails are not all well marked. You should either find a guide or know how to use a GPS.

    Great trail maps can be found at:

    http://singletrack.us/gallery/index.php?cat=10
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  4. #4
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    I knew my lungs would explode from elevation but I figure I'd have to at least try to squeeze a ride in while I was there.

    thanks for the link to the maps! any advice on bike rentals? Is Absolute the only one in Flag that rents them?

  5. #5
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    This is also a nice map if you want to get the lay of the land before you arrive.
    http://www.emmittbarks.com/maps.htm#...20Trails%20Map

    The non-system trails that make Dale's map look like spaghetti are not marked but the others are well-marked and there's plenty of miles of singletrack to keep you occupied.

    Absolute is the biggest store and likely has the largest selection to choose from. Expect to pay $70 for a high end Spec or Giant rental. They're not doing demos much anymore. If you rent there they have a big map on the wall and also do a Tues morning ride. The other shop that is downtown is AZ bikes and you can probably rent a Kona there. Singletrack is another option about halfway between downtown and I17.

    Not that it matters but you won't find a trail that takes you higher than 8800' feet. At least legally, unless you ride Waterline into the Inner Basin and then around to Abineau Canyon.

  6. #6
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    I think Absolute was $75 for a full day on a Spec Stumpy FSR. That's what I ride now so I figure I'll drop the dime since I won't be back in Flagstaff for awhile.

    There's also some good google earth layers for Mt. Elden. After Evil Patrick's map post I searched on google earth and found them. Looks like I'll definitely be packing my GPS for this trip!!

  7. #7
    slower than you
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Patrick
    Great trail maps can be found at:

    http://singletrack.us/gallery/index.php?cat=10
    as always, i feel it is my duty to note that dale's aforementioned map does not feature the proper trail names...

    but, as far as rentals go. full disclosure demands i tell you up front that i am an employee at absolute bikes... regardless, we like to think our rentals are fairly priced, well-maintained and -prepped with every-time check-ins and -outs; each bike has pump, patch and tool kit in the seat bag, too. we even check the tubes from time-to-time to ensure they're not trail-worn.

    plus, when you rent from us, we will happily make ride recommendations and even show you around the map and tell you the right trail names... or sell you a map with them printed on it.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
    http://rockychrysler.com/

  8. #8
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    I had a great time in Flagstaff this last weekend. Absolute Bikes helped me out a great deal getting situated. You can find my report here:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=540748

    I have a pretty good map, too. I followed the link above and I did not see a map. If you want a high res image of the one in the thread let me know.

    Happy Trails!

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=Mtn. Biker123I have a pretty good map, too. I followed the link above and I did not see a map. If you want a high res image of the one in the thread let me know.
    [/QUOTE]


    Just so you know Bry: the map in your post *is* Dale's map ("wrong" names and all) and can be found from the link EvilP posted.
    b

  10. #10
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    I realize who's map it *is*, however, I was trying to be careful not to *out* anyone.

    I never meant to plagiarizer *his* map if that was the impression I made.

  11. #11
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    yeah, Catwalk also is known by the locals as Organ Donor and runs along a ridge to the summit of Elden. You will earn it but, you will most likely love it too! Enjoy...........

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tls36
    yeah, Catwalk also is known by the locals as Organ Donor and runs along a ridge to the summit of Elden. You will earn it but, you will most likely love it too! Enjoy...........
    If only that was the only misnamed trail on the Wiggins map...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpvet73
    If only that was the only misnamed trail on the Wiggins map...
    aaaay-men!
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler
    as always, i feel it is my duty to note that dale's aforementioned map does not feature the proper trail names...

    but, as far as rentals go. full disclosure demands i tell you up front that i am an employee at absolute bikes... regardless, we like to think our rentals are fairly priced, well-maintained and -prepped with every-time check-ins and -outs; each bike has pump, patch and tool kit in the seat bag, too. we even check the tubes from time-to-time to ensure they're not trail-worn.

    plus, when you rent from us, we will happily make ride recommendations and even show you around the map and tell you the right trail names... or sell you a map with them printed on it.
    Dude, get over the names on the maps, you're the only one who really gives a rip. I don't know You or Dale personally, but your vendetta against the guy is tired. The majority of people that ride any trail system don't know each trail verbatim, they just figure out where they are going. Dale's various maps have saved me from getting lost a number of times, and it was not because I figured out the correct name, it was because of the orientation the map provided. You've said your peace on previous posts, nobody cares, but you still said it. I have yet to have seen you post up a map of equal quality with the correct names, so until you do so, your credibility will be marked and you end up sounding like a whiner.
    Making Milk by Day, Beer by Night

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pynis McDermott
    Dude, get over the names on the maps, you're the only one who really gives a rip. I don't know You or Dale personally, but your vendetta against the guy is tired. The majority of people that ride any trail system don't know each trail verbatim, they just figure out where they are going. Dale's various maps have saved me from getting lost a number of times, and it was not because I figured out the correct name, it was because of the orientation the map provided. You've said your peace on previous posts, nobody cares, but you still said it. I have yet to have seen you post up a map of equal quality with the correct names, so until you do so, your credibility will be marked and you end up sounding like a whiner.
    dale is a fine fellow. this is in no-way an ad hominem thing.

    i have issues with his map.

    my rant may be tired, but have foresworn: i shall not rest until he reopens the file and spends 5 minutes correcting the names. you'd be ticked if someone renamed your local trails and then posted them with the new names all over the internets, too. uh-duh. therefore, i faithfully hold fast to this simple, universally sacred position: locals name trails, visitors learn the names.

    nayh.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
    http://rockychrysler.com/

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler
    locals name trails, visitors learn the names.
    And so it was written. Amen.

  17. #17
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    New Ax to Grind for Rocky

    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler
    dale is a fine fellow. this is in no-way an ad hominem thing.

    i have issues with his map.

    my rant may be tired, but have foresworn: i shall not rest until he reopens the file and spends 5 minutes correcting the names. you'd be ticked if someone renamed your local trails and then posted them with the new names all over the internets, too. uh-duh. therefore, i faithfully hold fast to this simple, universally sacred position: locals name trails, visitors learn the names.

    nayh.
    It depends on which "local" you are talking to. Even the "locals" call the trails by different names. So which name should the trails go by??? Who is the "official trail naming person" for Flagstaff?

    It looks like my favorite MTBR'er found a new ax to grind. I am so glad you will not rest until the name are changed to whatever YOU think they sould be called. It is such an import issue & all will not be right in the world until this is done.

    Dale: thanks for your efforts on the maps. I have used many of them over the years and I appreciate your efforts.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bik_ryder
    It depends on which "local" you are talking to. Even the "locals" call the trails by different names. So which name should the trails go by??? Who is the "official trail naming person" for Flagstaff?

    It looks like my favorite MTBR'er found a new ax to grind. I am so glad you will not rest until the name are changed to whatever YOU think they sould be called. It is such an import issue & all will not be right in the world until this is done.

    Dale: thanks for your efforts on the maps. I have used many of them over the years and I appreciate your efforts.
    Exactly, many trails out there have multiple names, and as generations of riders come and go, so some of the names change. The purpose of the maps is orientation, not to get all the names correct. It's like Catwalk and Organ Donor (previously mentioned) - one of the better known (not for his maps) trail book authors, who lives in Flagstaff calls these trails by one name while other locals call it by another - who dictates? - Nobody, because this is a zero sum game.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pynis McDermott
    Exactly, many trails out there have multiple names, and as generations of riders come and go, so some of the names change. The purpose of the maps is orientation, not to get all the names correct. It's like Catwalk and Organ Donor (previously mentioned) - one of the better known (not for his maps) trail book authors, who lives in Flagstaff calls these trails by one name while other locals call it by another - who dictates? - Nobody, because this is a zero sum game.
    Sorry, that doesn't hold water with me. A trail should only have one name, and the builder has first dibs. Dale lives 140 miles away and doesn't get a vote. Why is it so hard to see why RockyC or other locals find this topic a bit arrogant. What's the big deal about changing it? If it was just word of mouth than I see your point, Pynis. No big deal but now the link is posted in every mtbr Flagstaff trail thread.

    Personally, as a geologist I really love maps. And I've used Dale's for phoenix. But putting a map out there on the internet with the wrong names does dishonor to the field of Cartography. It's become some sort of joke but it really isn't. Not to someone like RockyC who has been working towards bike advocacy and showing up for trail days for the more than two decades I've known him.

    As for your catwalk/organ donor example. They are not the same place nor are they trail names. Simply features on Sunset. Catwalk is the exposed section up high along the ridgline and organ donor is the super, rocky section.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman

    Personally, as a geologist I really love maps. And I've used Dale's for phoenix. But putting a map out there on the internet with the wrong names does dishonor to the field of Cartography. It's become some sort of joke but it really isn't. Not to someone like RockyC who has been working towards bike advocacy and showing up for trail days for the more than two decades I've known him.
    I can see where you are comming from. I hate looking at multiple maps that list the same features with different names. That gets ultra-confusing very fast. Some even have different names for the same roads, which again is dumb. It's nice to have as much standarization as possible. It's not possible to have it all consistant, but it's good to try.

    If you're just trying to find or ride the trails, you get confused fast with all the wierd names out there, although maybe that's the point.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler
    dale is a fine fellow. this is in no-way an ad hominem thing.

    i have issues with his map.

    my rant may be tired, but have foresworn: i shall not rest until he reopens the file and spends 5 minutes correcting the names. you'd be ticked if someone renamed your local trails and then posted them with the new names all over the internets, too. uh-duh. therefore, i faithfully hold fast to this simple, universally sacred position: locals name trails, visitors learn the names.

    nayh.
    tired argument or not, this is one of the finest examples of the Queen's English on mtbr.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    I can see where you are comming from. I hate looking at multiple maps that list the same features with different names. That gets ultra-confusing very fast. Some even have different names for the same roads, which again is dumb. It's nice to have as much standarization as possible. It's not possible to have it all consistant, but it's good to try.

    If you're just trying to find or ride the trails, you get confused fast with all the wierd names out there, although maybe that's the point.
    Yes, it's good to try. That's why it would be nice if Dale would change his map. Afterall, it has become the ipso facto map for Flagstaff.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Some even have different names for the same roads, which again is dumb.

    Don't ever go to Boston. there is a little road that is really named 95, but locals still call it 128. Worse all the maps list it as 95. all the signs ON said road say 95, but all signs leading ONTO said road are 128!

    F-ing Ma$$-holes. =)
    b

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman
    Sorry, that doesn't hold water with me. A trail should only have one name, and the builder has first dibs. Dale lives 140 miles away and doesn't get a vote. Why is it so hard to see why RockyC or other locals find this topic a bit arrogant. What's the big deal about changing it? If it was just word of mouth than I see your point, Pynis. No big deal but now the link is posted in every mtbr Flagstaff trail thread.

    Personally, as a geologist I really love maps. And I've used Dale's for phoenix. But putting a map out there on the internet with the wrong names does dishonor to the field of Cartography. It's become some sort of joke but it really isn't. Not to someone like RockyC who has been working towards bike advocacy and showing up for trail days for the more than two decades I've known him.

    As for your catwalk/organ donor example. They are not the same place nor are they trail names. Simply features on Sunset. Catwalk is the exposed section up high along the ridgline and organ donor is the super, rocky section.
    I still fail to see how mislabelling a trail in your attempt to provide a suitable map for would be outside riders has a negative effect on bike advocacy. The end result is that you bring more outsider influence to your beloved trails by providing a tangible medium of direction. Furthermore, I fail to see how adding names for the sake of description has any negative effect on Sunset Trail or any others - should 'Waterfall' not be allowed on any National trail maps meant for biking enthusiasts, should 'Hairball and Cheese Grater' be removed from the PMP maps because that is not the trails "true" name, I don't think so.

    The end result is that an outsider looking in would be better served with a tangible copy of Dale's Map than they would with the map provided at the trailhead or any other free map source currently available on the net. Respect is deserved for those of you that paid your dues to provide one of the single best trail systems in the state IMO. And I do agree that this is a simple edit that could be remedied. However, consistent attacks on a guy that has done nothing more than provide trail locations to those unsure of a new system is unnecessary and in opposition to true bicycle advocacy.
    Making Milk by Day, Beer by Night

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pynis McDermott
    I I fail to see how adding names for the sake of description has any negative effect on Sunset Trail or any others - should 'Waterfall' not be allowed on any National trail maps meant for biking enthusiasts, should 'Hairball and Cheese Grater' be removed from the PMP maps because that is not the trails "true" name, I don't think so.
    Those are features located along a trail. Not trail names. Nobody I know says they're going to go ride Organ Donor or today I'm going to ride Waterfall (rather, today I'm going to ride South Mountain and maybe try to clean Waterfall).

    This isn't a trail advocacy issue. Nor, is anyone attacking Dale. Whining yes but personal insults or anything stinky being thrown his way? No.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler
    dale is a fine fellow. this is in no-way an ad hominem thing.

    i have issues with his map.

    my rant may be tired, but have foresworn: i shall not rest until he reopens the file and spends 5 minutes correcting the names. you'd be ticked if someone renamed your local trails and then posted them with the new names all over the internets, too. uh-duh. therefore, i faithfully hold fast to this simple, universally sacred position: locals name trails, visitors learn the names.

    nayh.
    Don't worry, you are not alone in this...

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pynis McDermott
    However, consistent attacks on a guy that has done nothing more than provide trail locations to those unsure of a new system is unnecessary and in opposition to true bicycle advocacy.
    again, not an attack on dale. he's a really nice guy.

    i just want him to take a few minutes to edit and repost his map. his map bugs me. everyone here loves it. it's a tour-de-force, for sure. fine. but, it's wrong for anyone to attempt rename well-established, much-beloved singletrack. period.

    so, quid pro quo: change the map, please (or pull it down), and i will shut up. don't make me derail yet another thread, dale. i'm just as threadbare on this tirade as everyone else.

    hugs all around. can i get another amen?
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
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    I will just say that I had absolutely no problem navigating with Dale's maps. Most of the trails that I rode were verbatim with the signage. And the others, well....

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler
    again, not an attack on dale. he's a really nice guy.

    i just want him to take a few minutes to edit and repost his map. his map bugs me. everyone here loves it. it's a tour-de-force, for sure. fine. but, it's wrong for anyone to attempt rename well-established, much-beloved singletrack. period.

    so, quid pro quo: change the map, please (or pull it down), and i will shut up. don't make me derail yet another thread, dale. i'm just as threadbare on this tirade as everyone else.

    hugs all around. can i get another amen?
    Have you made an attempt to itemize and list said trails that you would like the names changed? Dale has certainly gone to enough effort thus far to bring about a popular map. A little contribution sent his way may be exactly what is needed to make the final improvements. I understand there is no mud slinging and this is purely a matter of point, but in the true sense of advocacy, and for the benefit of a wonderful town which thrives on tourism (ie: OP's interest), it might be best to make a little more effort to help Dale further along the way since you seem so passionate about the issue.
    Making Milk by Day, Beer by Night

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pynis McDermott
    Have you made an attempt to itemize and list said trails that you would like the names changed? Dale has certainly gone to enough effort thus far to bring about a popular map. A little contribution sent his way may be exactly what is needed to make the final improvements. I understand there is no mud slinging and this is purely a matter of point, but in the true sense of advocacy, and for the benefit of a wonderful town which thrives on tourism (ie: OP's interest), it might be best to make a little more effort to help Dale further along the way since you seem so passionate about the issue.
    for the record, dale and i have spoken face-to-face about this issue and i have expressed my willingness to assist him in this process. the ball is in his court, so to speak...
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler
    for the record, dale and i have spoken face-to-face about this issue and i have expressed my willingness to assist him in this process. the ball is in his court, so to speak...
    We'll leave it at that and let this thread fizzle away. Good to see both sides of this issue. However, I hope these mild rants or firm stances (whatever you wish to call them) on this issue do not raise questions as far as the local biking community's treatment of outsiders. FTR: I love Flagstaff, and am there every other weekend during the summer with one thing on my mind - riding. I know that the community is great, and you work at a great shop, but although you have a sincere interest not to disservice the outside public or first timers. This attitude towards the map does not bode well for an ambassador of Flag's biking community. Just think of the OP's perspective and I think you will agree, you may win the battle, but will you really win the war?
    Making Milk by Day, Beer by Night

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pynis McDermott
    We'll leave it at that and let this thread fizzle away. Good to see both sides of this issue. However, I hope these mild rants or firm stances (whatever you wish to call them) on this issue do not raise questions as far as the local biking community's treatment of outsiders. FTR: I love Flagstaff, and am there every other weekend during the summer with one thing on my mind - riding. I know that the community is great, and you work at a great shop, but although you have a sincere interest not to disservice the outside public or first timers. This attitude towards the map does not bode well for an ambassador of Flag's biking community. Just think of the OP's perspective and I think you will agree, you may win the battle, but will you really win the war?
    This isn't about the local biking community trying to keep the trails to themselves and visitors away. It's not private property. It's about the history and lore of Flagstaff mountain biking and the names of trails are part of that story.

    The owner of Absolute Bikes was on the 2nd Pearl Pass tour between Crested Butte and Aspen in 1982(?). The roots go back a long way here just as they do in other parts of the country like CB or Marin. Trails like Onceler and Dogfood are part of the local lexicon and to flippantly give them different names on a map readily available to all is a pity. End of story.

  33. #33
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    Holy **** people, saying the same thing three times won't make others more likely to agree with you.

    I find it hard to remember a trail names. Most places I've lived the locals seem to have a couple sets of them. I prefer vague gesticulations and directions based on tree size.

    To the OP, my standard all-day, one-day deal on Elden continues to be:

    -Up Schultz and Little Gnarly, down Jedi
    -Back up Little Gnarly, down Upper Brookbank, up the road
    -down Sunset through the Hobbit Forest, down Little Bear
    -Little Elden back to Schultz Tank
    -up Weatherford (or the road if you're less interested in loose climbing)
    -down Ricochet (or whatever it's called)
    -back up "Secret" (worst trail name ever)
    -down Supermoto! (best for last) and lower Moto

    -Beer!

    This is not a short or easy ride. Skipping Jedi and Ricochet would be my recommended way to make it more flatlander friendly.

    Have fun, this is the best riding in Arizona.

  34. #34
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    secret was a secret once upon a time

    Quote Originally Posted by ionsmuse
    Holy **** people, saying the same thing three times won't make others more likely to agree with you.

    I find it hard to remember a trail names. Most places I've lived the locals seem to have a couple sets of them. I prefer vague gesticulations and directions based on tree size.

    To the OP, my standard all-day, one-day deal on Elden continues to be:

    -Up Schultz and Little Gnarly, down Jedi
    -Back up Little Gnarly, down Upper Brookbank, up the road
    -down Sunset through the Hobbit Forest, down Little Bear
    -Little Elden back to Schultz Tank
    -up Weatherford (or the road if you're less interested in loose climbing)
    -down Ricochet (or whatever it's called)
    -back up "Secret" (worst trail name ever)
    -down Supermoto! (best for last) and lower Moto

    -Beer!

    This is not a short or easy ride. Skipping Jedi and Ricochet would be my recommended way to make it more flatlander friendly.

    Have fun, this is the best riding in Arizona.
    Ionsmuse, Secret trail was pretty much a Secret when it was named way back in the mid 80's,,,,,,when I first rode it late Summer of 86, maybe a dozen folks knew about it and Flagstaff had perhaps 50 or so semi-serious mt bikers, which was a huge amount for the time period........Secret remained a "secret" trail into the mid 90's and even when it became widely known the chance of seeing another ride was slim to none,,,,,,,,,,,I sure miss the East section, but it was doomed to be closed eventually,,,,,at least we were able to work with the FS on a new reroute which is pretty sweet

  35. #35
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    I'm just feeling ornery....buuuuuuut....

    Pynis,my impression just from reading is that you kinda want a tour guide and have a mild sense of entitlement about it. There is no one umbrella organization about mtb in an area, or any other similar sport. Everything has the "inside" info and the "rest" of the info - riding, skiing, road riding, best bartenders and the shifts they work... just dont see why you seem so adamant about it? Not looking to pick a fight, just kinda confused.

    me and my friends have our names etc. for Hawes and Pass Mtn, and we are all locals, and its just our thing. Not exclusive, not inclusive, just our bond. no big deal? guarantee anyone who rides Hawes with me is going to get new twists on things they've seen and ridden tons of times, and they'll like the route better. Part of the joy of going to a different place and hooking up with the locals is you get the locals tour, which is about the best flow through some routes, the b-lines and "hidden" trials, the stories etc. I wouldn't want it any other way, or everything would lack flavor like the McDowell Loops.
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
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  36. #36
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    Rocky DOES NOT speak for ALL of us from Flagstaff!! Please, please do not assume that his opinions express the opinions of the majority here. The majority of Flagstaffonians welcome visitors and realize that the $$ you bring to our beautiful town helps allow us to work and live in this beautiful town.

    will agree that it would be nice if the trails up here all went by the same name. But, locals have been calling them by different names for many years. Why are we so surprised that visitors call them by differnt names? Part of the problem is that a lot of the trails up here were built using unofficial methods. The individuals that built the unofficial trail will name it what they want and the word spreads through the underground. Then, that same trail will become an official trail and it is then named something different.

    It is what it is.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    I'm just feeling ornery....buuuuuuut....

    Pynis,my impression just from reading is that you kinda want a tour guide and have a mild sense of entitlement about it. There is no one umbrella organization about mtb in an area, or any other similar sport. Everything has the "inside" info and the "rest" of the info - riding, skiing, road riding, best bartenders and the shifts they work... just dont see why you seem so adamant about it? Not looking to pick a fight, just kinda confused.

    me and my friends have our names etc. for Hawes and Pass Mtn, and we are all locals, and its just our thing. Not exclusive, not inclusive, just our bond. no big deal? guarantee anyone who rides Hawes with me is going to get new twists on things they've seen and ridden tons of times, and they'll like the route better. Part of the joy of going to a different place and hooking up with the locals is you get the locals tour, which is about the best flow through some routes, the b-lines and "hidden" trials, the stories etc. I wouldn't want it any other way, or everything would lack flavor like the McDowell Loops.

    I really didn't want to get suckered back into this one, but what the hell are you talking about? 95% of the time, I ride alone, in other words, I don't need, nor expect, nor feel entitled to a tour guide. Since I ride alone, I have benefited from Dale sharing his maps when I am riding new places, or want to explore a new trail in a place I've been before. Because of my appreciation of those maps, and the fact that this is a dead horse that has been beaten over and over, I wanted to come to the aid of a fellow mtbr that has provided me with a valuable service. Since when am I calling for an umbrella organization or a "governing body" of sorts to make a decision? If anyone is confused it is me. You are taking my points and somehow turning them in my opposition. You may elaborate, but I am going to try to slide away from this one. I'm not here to piss anyone off, like I said, I ride alone and I would prefer not to make that someone else's decision because I've been isolated or butted in where I don't belong.
    Making Milk by Day, Beer by Night

  38. #38
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    wrong assumption concerning Rocky

    Quote Originally Posted by bik_ryder
    Rocky DOES NOT speak for ALL of us from Flagstaff!! Please, please do not assume that his opinions express the opinions of the majority here. The majority of Flagstaffonians welcome visitors and realize that the $$ you bring to our beautiful town helps allow us to work and live in this beautiful town.

    will agree that it would be nice if the trails up here all went by the same name. But, locals have been calling them by different names for many years. Why are we so surprised that visitors call them by differnt names? Part of the problem is that a lot of the trails up here were built using unofficial methods. The individuals that built the unofficial trail will name it what they want and the word spreads through the underground. Then, that same trail will become an official trail and it is then named something different.

    It is what it is.
    Rocky is not trying to "speak" for all of us Flagstaff mt bikers, why do you assume he is?It's his beef about the alternate trail names on Dale's map, so it is what it is between them..........I know Dale and Rocky C, and they are both passionate about bikes and singletrack and are good guys to boot. The alternate trail names for many of the "unofficial" trails here in town (categorized as social or non-system trails by the FS) ARE confusing because they are not signed in any fashion by the FS (or anyone) but often connect into a legitimate official signed system trail,,,,which can be uber confusing to the out of towner/non old skool local.Puppy Chow is an exception, it has a handmade sign that is sometimes visible on the 2nd berm turn dropping into that section......it might even be gone again, it does have a habit of moving off trail or even disappearing occasionally. Heck, some of the social trails that the FS has adopted and include in the "official" approved system still are not named or signed in any fashion. Be warned, a local group of mt. bikers here in Flag are threatening to publish a new trail map that will rename all of the official and so called unofficial trails using only phrases, characters and quotes from The Big Lebowski......get ready to be confused all over again

  39. #39
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    The Dude Abides
    Making Milk by Day, Beer by Night

  40. #40
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    you know of this trail??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pynis McDermott
    The Dude Abides
    Pynis, "The Dude Abides" is in my top 3 trails in Flagstaff, right there with "Jackie Treehorn" and the technical but flowy "Log Jammin"............still can't find the locals entrance to "Lebowski's Little Achievers" but I know I'm getting close,,,,,,,,,,,,and I've been riding Flagstaff durtness since 1986.........
    thanks for the sense of humor

  41. #41
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    [QUOTE=elrancho66]Puppy Chow is an exception, it has a handmade sign that is sometimes visible on the 2nd berm turn dropping into that section......QUOTE]

    Riding on Rocky Moto this morning, I noticed that someone has fashioned a signs out of athletic tape and hung them on the branches of some trees. I saw signs for Rocky Moto and Flying Douche.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by elrancho66
    Pynis, "The Dude Abides" is in my top 3 trails in Flagstaff, right there with "Jackie Treehorn" and the technical but flowy "Log Jammin"............still can't find the locals entrance to "Lebowski's Little Achievers" but I know I'm getting close,,,,,,,,,,,,and I've been riding Flagstaff durtness since 1986.........
    thanks for the sense of humor
    Where do I find "Calmer than You are"? B/C I heard that one was a must.
    Making Milk by Day, Beer by Night

  43. #43
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    no can divulge this local secret

    Quote Originally Posted by Pynis McDermott
    Where do I find "Calmer than You are"? B/C I heard that one was a must.
    Pynis, since you are not yet a local I must decline to enlighten you on the beta of discovering the otherworldy trail known by some as "Calmer......" I will give you a hint, it's in the same drainage as "Middle Nihilist" but way below the junction of "Bunny" and "Mark It 8 Dude". Good luck Grasshopper
    elrancho66

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by elrancho66
    Pynis, since you are not yet a local I must decline to enlighten you on the beta of discovering the otherworldy trail known by some as "Calmer......" I will give you a hint, it's in the same drainage as "Middle Nihilist" but way below the junction of "Bunny" and "Mark It 8 Dude". Good luck Grasshopper
    elrancho66
    What in God's holy name are you blathering about?

    We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your chonson

  45. #45
    Always a good day to ride
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    Quote Originally Posted by elrancho66
    Rocky is not trying to "speak" for all of us Flagstaff mt bikers, why do you assume he is?It's his beef about the alternate trail names on Dale's map, so it is what it is between them..........:
    Rocky posted his opinions here on a public message board. How is that just between them?

    Until the FS posts signs at the trail heads of these trails, they will always be called by different names. Plain and simple.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bik_ryder
    Rocky DOES NOT speak for ALL of us from Flagstaff!! Please, please do not assume that his opinions express the opinions of the majority here. The majority of Flagstaffonians...
    right. i speak for the Flagstaffricans. and we shall overcome.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
    http://rockychrysler.com/

  47. #47
    A plethora of pinatas
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    Is this season 3 of the Rocky & Bik_ryder Show? I thought you guys kissed and made up at the end of season 2?
    Marty

  48. #48
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    Don't ever go to Boston. there is a little road that is really named 95, but locals still call it 128. Worse all the maps list it as 95. all the signs ON said road say 95, but all signs leading ONTO said road are 128!

    F-ing Ma$$-holes. =)
    Well, we have Iron Springs, Whippe St, Montezuma, White Spar, and Highway 89.


    All the same F-ing road.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  49. #49
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    he speaks for himself

    Quote Originally Posted by bik_ryder
    Rocky posted his opinions here on a public message board. How is that just between them?

    Until the FS posts signs at the trail heads of these trails, they will always be called by different names. Plain and simple.
    You are correct BR , Rocky did post his opinion(s) on the trail name issues he has with Dale's maps here on a public forum. But unless I missed the post, where did he write that he "speaks" for all of us Flagstaff locals,,,,,,,,,,what does make someone a local these
    days?
    Don't hold your breath on the FS ever posting trails signs @ all of the trailheads. I've been here 23 plus years riding, building, maintaining,sponsoring ,promoting and working with the FS on trail advocacy issues and trail day events and we've made some great additions and much needed imporvements to some of the trails here,,,but good signage is still one of the weakest parts to the puzzle,,,,,,,,,,but I'll take sweet trails with multiple names over informative "official" signs on lame trails 8 days a week,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Last edited by elrancho66; 07-31-2009 at 05:17 PM. Reason: spelling

  50. #50
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    see ya at 9am

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman
    What in God's holy name are you blathering about?

    We believe in nothing, Lebowski. Nothing. And tomorrow we come back and we cut off your chonson
    Rockman, don't play dumb with me. Are we still on for the BIG lollipop of the Upper trails on The Big Lebowski Outer Loop?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see ya at 9am
    PM with changes as needed

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by elrancho66
    Rockman, don't play dumb with me. Are we still on for the BIG lollipop of the Upper trails on The Big Lebowski Outer Loop?,,,,,,,,,,,,,,see ya at 9am
    PM with changes as needed
    It's Nihlist trail for me tomorrow but only after Mrs. Rockman is back from breakfast to keep order over Lebowski's little achievers .

    I went down to the LBS to give RockyC some grief for being such a trail-hardass but alas he was not there

  52. #52
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    What the hell is Ricochet? I have lived in Flag for eight years now and I have never heard of this. Dale should at least use proper names if he feels it's necessary to expose all of our trails on the internet. I still think mapping everything out there and posting it on the internet sucks, f@$k it though, pave the world!

  53. #53
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    Dale who ?

  54. #54
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    Overlook= Ricochet and 2 other trails from Dale's map

    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    What the hell is Ricochet? I have lived in Flag for eight years now and I have never heard of this. Dale should at least use proper names if he feels it's necessary to expose all of our trails on the internet. I still think mapping every

    hing out there and posting it on the internet sucks, f@$k it though, pave the world!


    RA, A few comments on Dale's Map concerning trail names. I'm not sure if Dale added his names after riding them or was introduced to the trails and trail names by a fellow rider, you'll have to ask him.
    Ricochet= Overlook to most of the older locals,,,,,,,since approx. '90. Still semi Secret but the horse folks have discovered it and each season more and more horsey folk are riding UP it and *****in' about about us mt bikers per usual. The top 2/3 of the trail is one of my favorites, beatdown fairly bad on the lower 1/3. Not an official trail

    Super Fly= Onceler, named by Ken Lane( a Dr. Suess fan) in 88 when a handful of us locals adopted/tweaked/massaged the existing trail and abandoned 2 track and added some new trails to connect it from just above SP road over to the meadow connector to Lower Meadow Trail (just below the Pipeline) Onceler was incorporated into the 1989 and 1990 AZ State Championship Race which Absolute Bikes produced,,,,,,,,it was a real mt bike racecourse, the Pro/Expert loop was just about 28 miles and had substantial climbs, technical sections and kicked the racers A$$'s.The last 4 miles included traversing across Rocky Ridge towards the climbing area on Elden Lookout Rd, when it was much more technical and rockier than it's present state

    Labomba= Upper and Lower Hotshots. The Hotshot trails are rumored to be old Hotshot Fire Crew lines(circa early 90's) that were discovered by local mt. bikers but I don't know if this has ever been confirmed officially,,,,,,mostly fall line(bad, bad) and heavily eroded each monsoon season,,,,,,,,but since they are not official system trails, no approved and endorsed trail maintenance love can occur,,,,,,,they really need to be rerouted in the worst sections but that would have to be an under the radar project

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by elrancho66
    RA, A few comments on Dale's Map concerning trail names. I'm not sure if Dale added his names after riding them or was introduced to the trails and trail names by a fellow rider, you'll have to ask him.
    Ricochet= Overlook to most of the older locals,,,,,,,since approx. '90. Still semi Secret but the horse folks have discovered it and each season more and more horsey folk are riding UP it and *****in' about about us mt bikers per usual. The top 2/3 of the trail is one of my favorites, beatdown fairly bad on the lower 1/3. Not an official trail

    Super Fly= Onceler, named by Ken Lane( a Dr. Suess fan) in 88 when a handful of us locals adopted/tweaked/massaged the existing trail and abandoned 2 track and added some new trails to connect it from just above SP road over to the meadow connector to Lower Meadow Trail (just below the Pipeline) Onceler was incorporated into the 1989 and 1990 AZ State Championship Race which Absolute Bikes produced,,,,,,,,it was a real mt bike racecourse, the Pro/Expert loop was just about 28 miles and had substantial climbs, technical sections and kicked the racers A$$'s.The last 4 miles included traversing across Rocky Ridge towards the climbing area on Elden Lookout Rd, when it was much more technical and rockier than it's present state

    Labomba= Upper and Lower Hotshots. The Hotshot trails are rumored to be old Hotshot Fire Crew lines(circa early 90's) that were discovered by local mt. bikers but I don't know if this has ever been confirmed officially,,,,,,mostly fall line(bad, bad) and heavily eroded each monsoon season,,,,,,,,but since they are not official system trails, no approved and endorsed trail maintenance love can occur,,,,,,,they really need to be rerouted in the worst sections but that would have to be an under the radar project

    Overlook is a perfect example of why every trail doesn't need to be posted on the internet. At what point do you think its ok to expose a semi hidden trail online and call what ever the hell you want. STFU about it and let it be.

    The thing I really can't understand is being called out several times about it and not having enough respect to change it.

  56. #56
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    nothing last forever, darn.

    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    Overlook is a perfect example of why every trail doesn't need to be posted on the internet. At what point do you think its ok to expose a semi hidden trail online and call what ever the hell you want. STFU about it and let it be.

    The thing I really can't understand is being called out several times about it and not having enough respect to change it.
    JRF, I admit I liked it better when maybe 12 "locals" here had Overlook to ourselves but that was a looooooooooooonnnnnnnnggggg time ago, before front suspension, spd's and back when Farmer John's were the Shite (to a few bikers). I was bummed the first time my small posse ran into another biker not in our group on Overlook but it was bound to happen, he was just out having a ride on a sweet trail just like us.He was turned onto the trail by a Flagstaff biker friend we did not know.Shortly thereafter came the pile of logs and rocks that some dumba$$ decided would "naturalize" the hidden entrance into the Overlook trail but did just the opposite and Overlook was discovered. I'm not a fan of posting "social/illegal trails on the internet but it's unstoppable IMO...the Forest Service and other Land Managers have employees that ride mt. bikes and are on these forums looking for both cool legal rides and also taking notes on the illegal activities that are prevalent everywhere across public lands,,,,,,,it's caused problems in NM already, maybe AZ is next?
    Seems kind of stupid to me to post detailed maps with GPS etc on the internet when the beta is available to everyone with the click of the mouse,,,,,,,,it's going to bite us in the A$$ over and over again. I prefer the old method of introducing your "secret" trails to your biking buddies and spreading the word via all day rides, local beta from the cool bike shop and riders in town,campfires, beers and roadtrips but those days are gone since the internet came into our world.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by elrancho66
    ...but those days are gone since the internet came into our world.
    But now we get p0rn for free, so there's the trade-off...

  58. #58
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    Cool history elrancho66, thanks for taking the time to post all that. We are in a very different time now with the internet, no doubt.

  59. #59
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    I defer to your memory El Rancho but I recall Onceler being born when the USFS wouldn't allow Absolute to run the last leg of the 1990 AZ State Championship Race down Schultz Creek. Schultz was closed that summer to downhill mtn bike traffic beause of hiker and equestiran conflicts. That was also the last year that the Schultz Pass area was logged so E. Orion Springs (parts of it are now incorporated into the secret trail reroute) was also closed so you had to come down the road after climbing Weatherford Trail (Climb#4).

    Another tidbit from that era is that Climb#3 (incorrectly called that by locals and also labeled as such on Dale's map) is actually the "Coyote Downhill" portion of the 88-90 race course. The 2nd downhill (L. Knarly was the first) after climbing Weenies Walk. You can see the remnants of the real Climb #3 from the top of the Sunset trail reroute. Sunset was the 3rd downhill before climbing Weatherford Trail. A real xc race course indeed.
    Last edited by rockman; 08-01-2009 at 09:39 PM.

  60. #60
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    Looks like Dale has updated his map (aug 2) and corrected some of the names while at the same time adding trails towards snow bowl area.

  61. #61
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    ...and all this ranting makes me not want to ride while visting Flagstaff.....j/k

    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler
    as always, i feel it is my duty to note that dale's aforementioned map does not feature the proper trail names...

    but, as far as rentals go. full disclosure demands i tell you up front that i am an employee at absolute bikes... regardless, we like to think our rentals are fairly priced, well-maintained and -prepped with every-time check-ins and -outs; each bike has pump, patch and tool kit in the seat bag, too. we even check the tubes from time-to-time to ensure they're not trail-worn.

    plus, when you rent from us, we will happily make ride recommendations and even show you around the map and tell you the right trail names... or sell you a map with them printed on it.
    Is there any need to reserve a rental bike in advance from Absolute Bikes? Or, can I just show up and you'll have plenty of stock to choose from? Also, do you rent SPDs or do I need to bring my own?

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by dauwalt
    ...and all this ranting makes me not want to ride while visting Flagstaff.....j/k

    Is there any need to reserve a rental bike in advance from Absolute Bikes? Or, can I just show up and you'll have plenty of stock to choose from? Also, do you rent SPDs or do I need to bring my own?
    Maybe on a weekend and the selection is limited on high end models. Give them a call. 928-779-5969.

    Don't let trail passion stop you from riding. That would be a sad day indeed.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by dauwalt
    ...and all this ranting makes me not want to ride while visting Flagstaff.....j/k

    Is there any need to reserve a rental bike in advance from Absolute Bikes? Or, can I just show up and you'll have plenty of stock to choose from? Also, do you rent SPDs or do I need to bring my own?
    we can usually outfit walk-ins on all but the busiest saturdays of the summer. but if you're particular about what you're gonna ride, it's best to make a reservation. as rockman noted above, you can call [928-779-5969] to make said reservation, but the most effective way to arrange to rent from us is to make a reservation online: http://absolutebikes.net/rentals.html

    we have lots of spd pedals. but it's BYOS(hoes).

    and, btw, as noted some time ago, on his latest map revision, dale has changed several trail names to those more commonly accepted. and i, for one, am still grateful.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
    http://rockychrysler.com/

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JrockFeltaz
    Overlook is a perfect example of why every trail doesn't need to be posted on the internet. At what point do you think its ok to expose a semi hidden trail online and call what ever the hell you want. STFU about it and let it be.

    The thing I really can't understand is being called out several times about it and not having enough respect to change it.
    amen.

    for the record... there are many more locals i know that are bummed over the existence of the map rather than the trail names being incorrect, which is quite humorous actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by elrancho66
    Seems kind of stupid to me to post detailed maps with GPS etc on the internet when the beta is available to everyone with the click of the mouse,,,,,,,,it's going to bite us in the A$$ over and over again. I prefer the old method of introducing your "secret" trails to your biking buddies and spreading the word via all day rides, local beta from the cool bike shop and riders in town,campfires, beers and roadtrips but those days are gone since the internet came into our world.
    uber-amen to that one. several trails this summer prove the popularity of that map has grown exponentially... to the detriment of the trails, of course.

    think some trails are crowded now....

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