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  1. #1
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    No-ebikes stickers at Warpaint and sand flats were unauthorized

    I talked to Dan Gregory, South Mountain park manager, on the phone 20 minutes agi about a few no e-bikes stickers that popped up on the Desert Classic at Warpaint and the Desert Classic. The park has not purchased any such stickers and these will soon be removed by the rangers.

    Iím riding my e-bike because I have arthritis in my SI Joint and stopped riding to work and on the trail because these activities caused me pain, so please donít hate on me; I would otherwise be driving to the trail and walking so you will still have to pass me on the trail and have one less parking spot at the trail head, if you drive.
    "Thank you, God, for letting me have another day"
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    I talked to Dan Gregory, South Mountain park manager, on the phone 20 minutes agi about a few no e-bikes stickers that popped up on the Desert Classic at Warpaint and the Desert Classic. The park has not purchased any such stickers and these will soon be removed by the rangers.

    Iím riding my e-bike because I have arthritis in my SI Joint and stopped riding to work and on the trail because these activities caused me pain, so please donít hate on me; I would otherwise be driving to the trail and walking so you will still have to pass me on the trail and have one less parking spot at the trail head, if you drive.
    Dave the Ebike haters are getting desperate. They make up all the worst case scenarios and when that doesnít work the post signage that is a lie.

    I wouldnít doubt a bunch of the haters who post on the AZ forum are behind some of the false signage.

  3. #3
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    South Mountain is city of phx park. No current rules not allowing them there.
    Too Many .

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Dave the Ebike haters are getting desperate. They make up all the worst case scenarios and when that doesnít work the post signage that is a lie.

    I wouldnít doubt a bunch of the haters who post on the AZ forum are behind some of the false signage.
    They are real in Sedona, Switch, and here in Prescott, too.
    Veni vidi velo!

  5. #5
    Meatbomb
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    Stick a honda 4 stroker in it... thats next.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Dave the Ebike haters are getting desperate. They make up all the worst case scenarios and when that doesnít work the post signage that is a lie.

    I wouldnít doubt a bunch of the haters who post on the AZ forum are behind some of the false signage.



    Desperation is strapping a motor to an otherwise useful bicycle.
    Wanted, SRAM GX 2x11 rear derailleur

    It ain't supposed to be easy.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by brent701 View Post
    South Mountain is city of phx park. No current rules not allowing them there.
    Not true. Per City Park ordinances motorized vehicles are not allowed, and that includes MOTORIZED eBikes. Respect the law or get involved to change it.

    24-51 OPERATION AND PARKING OF VEHICLES IN PARKS; POSTING AND EXEMPTIONS; PENALTIES.
    A. No person shall drive any vehicle within a park except upon paved roads or drives or in paved parking areas, or in other areas authorized as parking areas by the Director or the Directorís designees.
    B. No person shall park or stand a vehicle in a park except within a designated space in a designated parking area, or in other areas authorized as parking areas by the Parks Director or the Directorís designees. No person shall stop, park or leave standing any vehicle, whether attended or unattended, upon the shoulder or berm of any road or drive within a park except in case of a medical emergency or unless the vehicle is disabled. No person shall park or stand a vehicle in a parking area of a park during the hours that the park is posted as closed unless authorized to do so by the Parks Director or the Directorís designee.
    C. The prohibitions of this ordinance, concerning driving, parking and standing, shall be conspicuously posted near all entrances to any park. The prohibitions of this ordinance shall not apply to persons exempted by the Director or the Directorís designees, or to persons performing work which is authorized by a lease with the City of Phoenix or concession agreement with the Board and which is performed at the direction of the lessee or concessionaire.
    D. A person who is convicted of a violation of Subsection A of this section is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor and shall be sentenced to pay a fine of not less than one hundred dollars and to perform not less than eight hours of community service under the supervision of the Department. The Court shall not suspend any part or all of the imposition or execution of any sentence required by this Subsection.
    E. A person who violates Subsection B of this Section is subject to a Civil Sanction. The Court shall impose:
    1. A minimum Civil Sanction of not less than fifty dollars if the Court finds that the person violated Subsection B by parking or standing a vehicle less than ten feet from a paved road or drive, or paved parking area, or any other authorized parking area, or by parking or standing a vehicle other than within a designated space in a designated parking area.
    2. A minimum Civil Sanction of not less than one hundred dollars if the Court finds that the person violated Subsection B by parking or standing a vehicle ten feet or more from a paved road or drive, or paved parking area, or any other authorized parking area. The Court shall not suspend any part or all of the imposition or execution of any sanction required by this Subsection.
    F. For the purposes of this Section, "vehicle" means any motor-powered or self-propelled vehicle, except a motorized wheelchair, bicycle or animal-drawn conveyance.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    Not true. Per City Park ordinances motorized vehicles are not allowed, and that includes MOTORIZED eBikes. Respect the law or get involved to change it.

    24-51 OPERATION AND PARKING OF VEHICLES IN PARKS; POSTING AND EXEMPTIONS; PENALTIES.
    A. No person shall drive any vehicle within a park except upon paved roads or drives or in paved parking areas, or in other areas authorized as parking areas by the Director or the Directorís designees.


    F. For the purposes of this Section, "vehicle" means any motor-powered or self-propelled vehicle, except a motorized wheelchair, bicycle or animal-drawn conveyance.
    Yes and no. Your last wording allows them in the park.
    For the purposes of this Section, "vehicle" means any motor-powered or self-propelled vehicle, except a motorized wheelchair, bicycle or animal-drawn conveyance.

    This is the State code
    28-819. Electric bicycles

    A. An operator of an electric bicycle is granted all the rights and privileges and is subject to all of the duties of a person riding a bicycle. Except as otherwise provided in this section, an electric bicycle is subject to the same provisions of this title as a bicycle.
    D. A class 1 electric bicycle or a class 2 electric bicycle may be used on bicycle and multiuse paths. A local authority or agency of this state having jurisdiction over a bicycle or multiuse path may prohibit the operation of a class 1 electric bicycle or class 2 electric bicycle on the path.

    BLM and US Forest deem them as motorized

    Here is all Maricopa parks ruling on them.
    The Maricopa County Parks and Recreation Department classifies e-bikes as motorized vehicles, as defined in Park Rule R-107.1 (R-107 MOTOR VEHICLES AND BICYCLES)
    So they are not allowed in the park on non-motorized trails.

    I am for them not being allowed on non-motorized trails.
    Too Many .

  9. #9
    Meatbomb
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    Failcock is going to bring the ebike argument to the AZ forum.... you just watch.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by life behind bars View Post
    Desperation is strapping a motor to an otherwise useful bicycle.
    Yes, I am riding my e-bike out of desperation. I do have a very good mountain bike, purchased after riding my previous bike literally to the point of fatigue. I have one joint that canít handle shock and heavy sustained loading. Iíd simply rather ride an e-bike to work and to the trail head instead of driving and hiking but I do walk four miles a day as well.

  11. #11
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    Is the hate based on behavior, or principle? I could really care less if people use the trail responsibly, if they are enjoying the outdoors.
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
    Our Preserve, Our Taxes, Our Vote

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Dave the Ebike haters are getting desperate. They make up all the worst case scenarios and when that doesnít work the post signage that is a lie.

    I wouldnít doubt a bunch of the haters who post on the AZ forum are behind some of the false signage.
    Itís difficult to know. Probably the same type of person who puts loose rock on the back side of blind drops or litters the trail with sharp-edged rocks and boulders.

    I havenít had anyone complain directly to me, but a hiker snarked to his wife, ďthatís illegalĒ within earshot, followed by his two unleashed dogs. So heís my number-one suspect for the trail disinformation.

    The posters here telling me that my e-bike is illegal on the same day that I heard from the park manager that my bike is legal because of the recent change in Arizona law arenít going to convince me to stay off the trail.

    If the park board, who have the authority to ban e-bikes meet, this might backfire on the mountain bike community as a whole - Iíve always been amazed that bikes are allowed at all on our busy trails and therefore have always been careful to keep the hikers comfortable but there are enough riders out there blowing past families at full speed to have incurred some resentment. Once a group of women told me that I was the only person all day who had actually gotten off to the edge of the trail to let them pass.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post


    The posters here telling me that my e-bike is illegal on the same day that I heard from the park manager that my bike is legal because of the recent change in Arizona law arenít going to convince me to stay off the trail.

    If the park board, who have the authority to ban e-bikes meet, this might backfire on the mountain bike community as a whole - Iíve always been amazed that bikes are allowed at all on our busy trails and therefore have always been careful to keep the hikers comfortable but there are enough riders out there blowing past families at full speed to have incurred some resentment. Once a group of women told me that I was the only person all day who had actually gotten off to the edge of the trail to let them pass.

    Main thing about the ARS, which I posted above.
    AZ has no real definition on Path vs trail.

    I few ebikes have been seen in White Tanks, those few have been dicks and causing havoc on the trails there.
    Too Many .

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Switchblade2 View Post
    Dave the Ebike haters are getting desperate. They make up all the worst case scenarios and when that doesnít work the post signage that is a lie.

    I wouldnít doubt a bunch of the haters who post on the AZ forum are behind some of the false signage.
    Not a hater, I think if you are disabled, old, or have an ego that states I wan2 be able to ride with all the 27 yr old riders in Sedona they may be for you. Get a Jersey resembling a handicap Plackard printed and you're good to go in my eyes. Think of it as the Lil Rascal of the MTB world. Mark my words, only a matter of time till u see them at Walmart. All sarcasm aside, I do think they make sense in OHV areas such as cinder lakes, or at your local ski area.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Stick a honda 4 stroker in it... thats next.
    Not for me. I put ten thousand miles on a DR-350, a dual-sport motorcycle. If I wanted a dirt bike I would buy one. The class one e-bike restriction of 250 to 750 watts is one of the things that makes it different from a motorcycle. Another difference is energy storage; my 400 watt battery stores the energy equivalent of a cheeseburger without the fries or coke. The similarity with a mountain bike is that every component besides the motor, battery, and controller is a standard-fit bike part; if I gutted the motor I would still have a rideable bicycle.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post

    Iím riding my e-bike because I have arthritis in my SI Joint and stopped riding to work and on the trail because these activities caused me pain, so please donít hate on me; I would otherwise be driving to the trail and walking so you will still have to pass me on the trail and have one less parking spot at the trail head, if you drive.
    As a chronic back pain sufferer even after recent surgery, I relate to your issue. Especially the arthropathy, SI, and low lumbar joints. I'm simply curious to understand how that riding an eBike is any different in your situation than riding a regular bike? I've ridden one. All the motions are the same but one gets more speed out of the eBike for the same input on the pedals. The "pro" argument tends to always include some form of "they're not as easy as they seem" so I was just curious what the benefit is for someone in your physical situation?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh My Sack! View Post
    As a chronic back pain sufferer even after recent surgery, I relate to your issue. Especially the arthropathy, SI, and low lumbar joints. I'm simply curious to understand how that riding an eBike is any different in your situation than riding a regular bike? I've ridden one. All the motions are the same but one gets more speed out of the eBike for the same input on the pedals. The "pro" argument tends to always include some form of "they're not as easy as they seem" so I was just curious what the benefit is for someone in your physical situation?
    Good question. Shock really bothers me, so I was down to commuting on the road bike once a week. If I ride my 4 mille commute one to work on my e-bike at 18 mph at 70 rpm Iíve turned the cranks 933 times. But if I ride my full-suspension mountain bike I turn the cranks 1866 times. If sitting all day makes me too sore, or if I didnít take the time to stretch, I can use high assist and loaf.

    Mountain biking is similar. My typical ride is 4 miles to WarPaint, 3 miles back from Equestrian, and an equal distance on dirt. Most of the effort on the trail is uphill, so if Iím riding up hill 4 mph without the e-bike and 8 with Iíve again turned the cranks around half as many times.

    The other part of this is that I use a higher assist levels on the short steep uphills out of the draws. These are the places that really hurt my joint; abrasive wear is proportional to both force and distance.

    Iím not using the e-bike to go farther; I can only take so much wear on the joint in a few days before inflammation gets too painful. Yes, Iíve seen a doctor, go to physical therapy, do core exercises every day and lift weights once a week. Plus lots of walking and stretching.

    The e-bike just adds some joy and takes away some pain; I feel better riding the bike than I do driving the car; getting the blood flowing with some joint motion is actually good for me.
    Last edited by hikerdave; 11-27-2018 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Grammar

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikerdave View Post
    Good question. Shock really bothers me, so I was down to commuting on the road bike once a week. If I ride my 4 mille commute one to work on my e-bike at 18 mph at 70 rpm Iíve turned the cranks 933 times. But if I ride my full-suspension mountain bike I turn the cranks 1866 times. If sitting all day makes me too sore, or if I didnít take the time to stretch, I can use high assist and loaf.

    Mountain biking is similar. My typical ride is 4 miles to WarPaint, 3 miles back from Equestrian, and an equal distance on dirt. Most of the effort on the trail is uphill, so if Iím riding up hill 4 mph without the e-bike and 8 with Iíve again turned the cranks around half as many times.

    The other part of this is that I use a higher assist levels on the short steep uphills out of the draws. These are the places that really hurt my joint; abrasive wear is proportional to both force and distance.

    Iím not using the e-bike to go farther; I can only take so much wear on the joint in a few days before inflammation gets too painful. Yes, Iíve seen a doctor, go to physical therapy, do core exercises every day and lift weights once a week. Plus lots of walking and stretching.

    The e-bike just adds some joy and takes away some pain; I feel better riding the bike than I do driving the car; getting the blood flowing with some joint motion is actually good for me.
    Sounds like the perfect use of an ebike, hikerdave. Ride it where it's legal and more power to ya, I say.
    Veni vidi velo!

  19. #19
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    No-ebikes stickers at Warpaint and sand flats were unauthorized-img_20181127_123029201-734x1305.jpg

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sawk puppet View Post
    Think you think there will ever be world class user created ebike trails that get adapted into system trails ? Wouldnít that be far out man
    Sawk I like to stay optimistic about the Ebike Class I approval process. One day I predict that they will be accepted by a lot more land managers than they are currently. In a place like Sedona we could easily develop a World Class Ebike System if we got the go ahead. I hope I live long enough to see it happen. What a Country!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Failcock is going to bring the ebike argument to the AZ forum.... you just watch.
    Nailed it bro
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

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  22. #22
    Meatbomb
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    It was not difficult to do....

  23. #23
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    the other day I came at a junction with an ebike at usery at Chainfruit and Lost Sheep, funny place for an Ebike given gentle trail, I'm glad I sent him first his motor propelled him easily ahead of me

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