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  1. #1
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    New Thread OUt of Respect...

    Here is a quote from the Marathoner Killed in Accident thread..

    "That's really sad. If the reports are right this would be a rare fatal cycling accident where the cyclist is the only one actually at fault, very sad."

    I think you are dead wrong. Most accidents are caused by cyclists OR could have been avoided by alert cyclists. I ride on the road too. And I used to drive a lot during prime rush hours. Usually going into the sun in the am and into it in the pm going home. I saw many recreational cyclists without lights, riding sidewalks in the wrong direction, bike lanes wrong direction, brakes not adjusted (yes- they were bad enough that my trained eye could see the 1/2" gap on either side of the rim while in motion-on a gas powered bike no less.) I watched a dude commute down Union Hills west bound into the sun every afternoon wearing no helmet, dark maroon and black clothing on a blacked out bike with no lights. Very hard to see and soon to be a statistic (and a true "cyclist"). Lets not forget the drunk bikers, dui evaders and just plain idiots of all flavor.

    Most accidents are caused because of a harmless interaction between bike operator and car operator. Bikes are such the minority on the road, and the average driver may not know the "rules- written and implied". We as "realish" cyclists should know the rules because we are the ones with the greatest risk.

    Mitigate your own risk- leave drivers alone. BTW- I will slowy blow stop lights and flat out haul ass through reds if I see a sane opening. My risk.
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  2. #2
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    City of Mesa conducted a study on bicycle related accidents in it's city and a startling number were the cause of the cyclist especialy riding on the wrong side of the road. I read it a few months back and don't have the link, but can be found on www.mesaaz.gov the stat was so high and after almost tagging a bike rider in the cross walk at night I changed my riding habit.
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  3. #3
    Meatbomb
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    Yeah, whenever I see someone riding against the traffic and on the sidewalk I want to try to educate them on the added risk they taking .... but you can't make people think.

  4. #4
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    Please educate me, why is riding on the sidewalk more dangerous? I actually prefer to ride on the sidewalk, seems a lot safer to me than to take the risk of riding on the actual street. I知 not a road rider or a commuter, but when I ride around my neighborhood, I always stick to the sidewalk if possible.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poi Boy
    Please educate me, why is riding on the sidewalk more dangerous? I actually prefer to ride on the sidewalk, seems a lot safer to me than to take the risk of riding on the actual street. I知 not a road rider or a commuter, but when I ride around my neighborhood, I always stick to the sidewalk if possible.

    Here's a clue... SIDE WALK, not SIDE RIDE. The sidewalk is buiilt for and dedicated to pedestrians, people on foot, not vehicles, like your bicycle, which is obligated to follow all motor vehicle code rules and regulations of the road. Now if you want to walk your bike on the side walk, that would then make you a pedestrian.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poi Boy
    Please educate me, why is riding on the sidewalk more dangerous? I actually prefer to ride on the sidewalk, seems a lot safer to me than to take the risk of riding on the actual street. I知 not a road rider or a commuter, but when I ride around my neighborhood, I always stick to the sidewalk if possible.
    Because most morotists that are pulling into traffic rarely stop short of the sidewalk, and rarely are they looking out for cyclists riding on the sidewalk.

    That said--and I too will ride on the sidewalk if I'm riding my cruiser on a busy street--if you must ride on the sidewalk, you should never ride against traffic, and you should be extremely defensive, and assume *nobody* sees you. Make yourself as visable as possible.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poi Boy
    Please educate me, why is riding on the sidewalk more dangerous? I actually prefer to ride on the sidewalk, seems a lot safer to me than to take the risk of riding on the actual street. I知 not a road rider or a commuter, but when I ride around my neighborhood, I always stick to the sidewalk if possible.
    Cars tend to not notice a bicycle on the sidewalk.
    If you are in the bike lane, yes you are more exposed, but you are also more noticeable.

    ALSO - VERY IMPORTANT - since its technically illegal to ride on the sidewalk, if a car does hit you, dealing with insurance if you are injured could be more difficult. Same thing with RIDING in a crosswalk. I speak from experience here.

    I know its morbid to think of being hit on your bike, but just like riding a motorcycle, you have to plan for the eventuality.
    I follow the rules of the road, use the bike lane. I've been hit twice (both not my fault), but doesn't stop me...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Here's a clue... SIDE WALK, not SIDE RIDE. The sidewalk is buiilt for and dedicated to pedestrians, people on foot, not vehicles, like your bicycle, which is obligated to follow all motor vehicle code rules and regulations of the road. Now if you want to walk your bike on the side walk, that would then make you a pedestrian.
    You didn't answer his question.

    (What happened to the classy RandyBoy?)
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstem
    Here is a quote from the Marathoner Killed in Accident thread..

    "That's really sad. If the reports are right this would be a rare fatal cycling accident where the cyclist is the only one actually at fault, very sad."

    I think you are dead wrong. Most accidents are caused by cyclists OR could have been avoided by alert cyclists. I ride on the road too. And I used to drive a lot during prime rush hours. Usually going into the sun in the am and into it in the pm going home. I saw many recreational cyclists without lights, riding sidewalks in the wrong direction, bike lanes wrong direction, brakes not adjusted (yes- they were bad enough that my trained eye could see the 1/2" gap on either side of the rim while in motion-on a gas powered bike no less.) I watched a dude commute down Union Hills west bound into the sun every afternoon wearing no helmet, dark maroon and black clothing on a blacked out bike with no lights. Very hard to see and soon to be a statistic (and a true "cyclist"). Lets not forget the drunk bikers, dui evaders and just plain idiots of all flavor.

    Most accidents are caused because of a harmless interaction between bike operator and car operator. Bikes are such the minority on the road, and the average driver may not know the "rules- written and implied". We as "realish" cyclists should know the rules because we are the ones with the greatest risk.

    Mitigate your own risk- leave drivers alone. BTW- I will slowy blow stop lights and flat out haul ass through reds if I see a sane opening. My risk.
    I don't get your point. Why are you blaming cyclists for accidents? I don't consider cars turning left when I have right of way a harmless interaction. Whether my alertness and cat-like skills could avoid an accident is not the point. Most of the accidents I almost have are because some dbag is on their iphone or simply doesn't care about following the laws. leave the stupid cyclists to their fate, how bout not apologizing for bad\illegal drivers?
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  10. #10
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    Maybe MVD should have more questions regarding bikes & sharing the road with vehicles. Seems this is more about people being aware then just dbags on a cell phone. We assume since we all ride. That everyone else understands bike & motor vehicle share the same streets & laws.

    Seems to me this is brought up because someone recently made a mistake. In doing so it was a fatal mistake. One asses the risk when riding their bikes. Be it road or mountain. I decide if I want to ride a busy street with no lane or drop in something that could cause injury. Only one watching out for me when riding is me.
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  11. #11
    Maui Grown
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    I understand that it is a SIDE WALK. I didn't ask you to educate me on what it is for. My point is that it is SAFER to ride on the sidewalk rather than the road.

    If I get hit by a car on the sidewalk, that means the vehicle has left the road and jumped the curb, so I'm sure I would be worse off if I were in the bike lane or on the street. Also, I'm sure that dealing with insurance (if I'm not dead) will not be an issue.

    I understand the point of a vehicle not seeing a cyclist while pulling into traffic, but if I'm entering/crossing a street or intersection, I make sure there are no vehicles present or I make damn sure that I yield or they see me. Same rules I follow when I'm a pedestrian taking a walk with my family.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstem
    Here is a quote from the Marathoner Killed in Accident thread..

    "That's really sad. If the reports are right this would be a rare fatal cycling accident where the cyclist is the only one actually at fault, very sad."

    I think you are dead wrong. Most accidents are caused by cyclists OR could have been avoided by alert cyclists. I ride on the road too. And I used to drive a lot during prime rush hours. Usually going into the sun in the am and into it in the pm going home. I saw many recreational cyclists without lights, riding sidewalks in the wrong direction, bike lanes wrong direction, brakes not adjusted (yes- they were bad enough that my trained eye could see the 1/2" gap on either side of the rim while in motion-on a gas powered bike no less.) I watched a dude commute down Union Hills west bound into the sun every afternoon wearing no helmet, dark maroon and black clothing on a blacked out bike with no lights. Very hard to see and soon to be a statistic (and a true "cyclist"). Lets not forget the drunk bikers, dui evaders and just plain idiots of all flavor.

    Most accidents are caused because of a harmless interaction between bike operator and car operator. Bikes are such the minority on the road, and the average driver may not know the "rules- written and implied". We as "realish" cyclists should know the rules because we are the ones with the greatest risk.

    Mitigate your own risk- leave drivers alone. BTW- I will slowy blow stop lights and flat out haul ass through reds if I see a sane opening. My risk.
    ok so the quote from the marathoner is only the frist sentence correct ?
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  13. #13
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    My point was more to the act of riding against traffic AND on the sidewalk. When a driver reaches a stop sign they will look left first and if turning right may never even look to the right. They will not see or expect a bike to be coming at them from that direction .

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poi Boy
    Please educate me, why is riding on the sidewalk more dangerous? I actually prefer to ride on the sidewalk, seems a lot safer to me than to take the risk of riding on the actual street. I知 not a road rider or a commuter, but when I ride around my neighborhood, I always stick to the sidewalk if possible.
    It is massively more dangerous, and bike accident statistics support this. Consider:

    * Inattentive drivers. When you're on the road, you demand a car driver's attention. When you're on the sidewalk, you're ignorable.

    * When you're crossing an intersection or a driveway pullout, you're less visible up in the sidewalk area than when you're out in the road with the rest of the traffic.

    I'd rather be visible and pissing off drivers than invisible and ignored by oblivious drivers.

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    It is massively more dangerous, and bike accident statistics support this. Consider:

    * Inattentive drivers. When you're on the road, you demand a car driver's attention. When you're on the sidewalk, you're ignorable.

    * When you're crossing an intersection or a driveway pullout, you're less visible up in the sidewalk area than when you're out in the road with the rest of the traffic.

    I'd rather be visible and pissing off drivers than invisible and ignored by oblivious drivers.

    p.

    ...that is half of it. The cyclist also has a better view/angle from the road, and has more options for evasive action.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poi Boy
    I understand that it is a SIDE WALK. I didn't ask you to educate me on what it is for. My point is that it is SAFER to ride on the sidewalk rather than the road.

    If I get hit by a car on the sidewalk, that means the vehicle has left the road and jumped the curb, so I'm sure I would be worse off if I were in the bike lane or on the street. Also, I'm sure that dealing with insurance (if I'm not dead) will not be an issue.

    I understand the point of a vehicle not seeing a cyclist while pulling into traffic, but if I'm entering/crossing a street or intersection, I make sure there are no vehicles present or I make damn sure that I yield or they see me. Same rules I follow when I'm a pedestrian taking a walk with my family.

    I'm with you, Poi. I stay on the sidewalk too.
    Randyboy just likes rules, he can't function without them.
    Last edited by tmarkos; 03-14-2011 at 08:34 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by airmiller44
    ok so the quote from the marathoner is only the frist sentence correct ?
    The marathoner didn't say what is quoted in the first sentence. The first sentence is from the other thread about the dead marathoner.

  18. #18
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    I'm with Poi and tmarkos.... I like the sidewalk much better than the road. Because no one actually ever walks on the sidewalks I frequent, I consider them to be my personal empty bike lanes. And I prefer the east sidewalk over the west so I go against traffic when coming home from work. I am always on the defensive and try my best to be alert (except for that time I ran into that truck).

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurtGurl
    I'm with Poi and tmarkos.... I like the sidewalk much better than the road. Because no one actually ever walks on the sidewalks I frequent, I consider them to be my personal empty bike lanes. And I prefer the east sidewalk over the west so I go against traffic when coming home from work. I am always on the defensive and try my best to be alert (except for that time I ran into that truck).
    Can you imagine how many accidents there would be if every cyclist did this (i.e., road against traffic on the sidewalk)?

    I understand you need to look out for numeron uno. But I would refrain from suggesting that this is okay.
    Last edited by Casual Observer; 03-14-2011 at 04:34 PM.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurtGurl
    I'm with Poi and tmarkos.... I like the sidewalk much better than the road. Because no one actually ever walks on the sidewalks I frequent, I consider them to be my personal empty bike lanes. And I prefer the east sidewalk over the west so I go against traffic when coming home from work. I am always on the defensive and try my best to be alert (except for that time I ran into that truck).
    Thank you your honor. The prosecution rests it's case.

  21. #21
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    Sometimes there are good reasons to ride the sidewalk.

    Back home in Roseburg, Oregon, the bike path dumps you out on the sidewalk. Then you go down the road about 200 to 300 yards, and access the bike path off to the left of the road once again.

    If you were to ride "Legal" you would have to get across 4 lanes of traffic in order to travel a few hundred yards, and then back across 4 lanes of traffic. So everyone rides down the left side sidewalk. I know I sure did. But I assumed I would have to make way for cars turning out to the right, and they would not see me.

    Yes I have seen people come into my shop who got knocked down by a driver not seeing them as they were making a right turn on that street, and those riders were unaware that they needed to be really careful and really should just stop and wait for right turning drivers in that area if they were going to choose to ride the left side. The path was poorly designed in that area IMO because it almost forced you to ride against traffic, and people even said "I got hit on the bike path", as they really felt that was the bike path route, and I believe there were even markings saying it was.

    I also rode on the sidewalks a lot in that town, because nobody walked on them, and there were no bike lanes, but I avoided going against traffic.

  22. #22
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    Law says we should be in the street going with the flow of traffic, and drivers are supposed to yield 3 ft. to us. Most drivers don't know this and even some police officers aren't aware of this. If something happens and you're not where you're supposed to be, it's on you. Stay aware of your surroundings when riding, and plan a route with less traffic to deal with. Check the link and scroll down to the Bike Ways Map.


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  23. #23
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    Screw the road. If I absolutely have to ride on pavement, I take the sidewalk.
    The same people that cry " but it's unlawful to ride on the sidewalk" are often times the same ones who think it's okay to blow a stop sign as long as no one is coming.

    My dad taught me how to ride motorcycles a long time ago and he taught me that if you get hit by a car while on a motorcycle, IT IS YOUR FAULT.
    You have to assume that people driving cars are not going to see you, are going to blow through a stop sign, are going to swerve over into your lane unexpectedly, etc. Since they have the weight advantage and you are nothing more than a speed bump then it is up to you to expect all of this and be prepared for it.
    I ride on the sidewalk and I know that the driver in that intersection is not going to see me, so if he hits me then it is my fault for ignoring what I know to be true and expecting "the law" to somehow protect me.

    Go out for a drive tomorrow morning and count how many drivers out of 20 are paying attention to the road or are texting, putting on make up, talking on the phone, eating, counting distracted drivers,etc. If you think that riding in the bike lane and staying as close as possible to the cars speeding by you is a safe thing to do, then more power to you. I'll be riding down Holbert where I have a much greater chance of surviving a crash and when I do crash- it will be completely my fault.

    And if the rock fairy puts a boulder somewhere and causes me to crash then it is still MY FAULT because I know this happens from time to time and I still choose to bomb down these trails.

    In last weeks tragedy, no one even thought to bring up the driver of the car and his well being. He did nothing wrong and in this case, was the victim. The cyclist died and that is something that the driver of the car will have to live with for the rest of his life. It's a tragedy in it's own right.

    Just my two cents.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobite39
    Screw the road. If I absolutely have to ride on pavement, I take the sidewalk.
    The same people that cry " but it's unlawful to ride on the sidewalk" are often times the same ones who think it's okay to blow a stop sign as long as no one is coming.

    My dad taught me how to ride motorcycles a long time ago and he taught me that if you get hit by a car while on a motorcycle, IT IS YOUR FAULT.
    You have to assume that people driving cars are not going to see you, are going to blow through a stop sign, are going to swerve over into your lane unexpectedly, etc. Since they have the weight advantage and you are nothing more than a speed bump then it is up to you to expect all of this and be prepared for it.
    I ride on the sidewalk and I know that the driver in that intersection is not going to see me, so if he hits me then it is my fault for ignoring what I know to be true and expecting "the law" to somehow protect me.

    Go out for a drive tomorrow morning and count how many drivers out of 20 are paying attention to the road or are texting, putting on make up, talking on the phone, eating, counting distracted drivers,etc. If you think that riding in the bike lane and staying as close as possible to the cars speeding by you is a safe thing to do, then more power to you. I'll be riding down Holbert where I have a much greater chance of surviving a crash and when I do crash- it will be completely my fault.

    And if the rock fairy puts a boulder somewhere and causes me to crash then it is still MY FAULT because I know this happens from time to time and I still choose to bomb down these trails.

    In last weeks tragedy, no one even thought to bring up the driver of the car and his well being. He did nothing wrong and in this case, was the victim. The cyclist died and that is something that the driver of the car will have to live with for the rest of his life. It's a tragedy in it's own right.

    Just my two cents.
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  25. #25
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    I ride the sidewalks too ... I just make sure I do it WITH the flow of traffic, not against.

  26. #26
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    it would be interesting to compare statistics (adjusted for population change) with those of 15 years ago before widespread cell phones and texting.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by longhairmike
    it would be interesting to compare statistics (adjusted for population change) with those of 15 years ago before widespread cell phones and texting.
    I'm confused, where in the account did it say the driver was on his/her cell phone and/or texting? I thought we were talking about riding on the sidewalk vs. the road.
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  28. #28
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    I don't get the "not riding against traffic while on the sidewalk" theory of drivers not looking to their right? That driver will run over more pedestrians by not looking right than bikes coming at him head on. I'd bet you have a greater chance of being hit riding IN THE ROAD by someone turning left.But as Cenobite said, pay attention and assume they don't see you, always good advice.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobite39
    Screw the road. If I absolutely have to ride on pavement, I take the sidewalk.
    The same people that cry " but it's unlawful to ride on the sidewalk" are often times the same ones who think it's okay to blow a stop sign as long as no one is coming.

    My dad taught me how to ride motorcycles a long time ago and he taught me that if you get hit by a car while on a motorcycle, IT IS YOUR FAULT.
    You have to assume that people driving cars are not going to see you, are going to blow through a stop sign, are going to swerve over into your lane unexpectedly, etc. Since they have the weight advantage and you are nothing more than a speed bump then it is up to you to expect all of this and be prepared for it.
    I ride on the sidewalk and I know that the driver in that intersection is not going to see me, so if he hits me then it is my fault for ignoring what I know to be true and expecting "the law" to somehow protect me.

    Go out for a drive tomorrow morning and count how many drivers out of 20 are paying attention to the road or are texting, putting on make up, talking on the phone, eating, counting distracted drivers,etc. If you think that riding in the bike lane and staying as close as possible to the cars speeding by you is a safe thing to do, then more power to you. I'll be riding down Holbert where I have a much greater chance of surviving a crash and when I do crash- it will be completely my fault.

    And if the rock fairy puts a boulder somewhere and causes me to crash then it is still MY FAULT because I know this happens from time to time and I still choose to bomb down these trails.

    In last weeks tragedy, no one even thought to bring up the driver of the car and his well being. He did nothing wrong and in this case, was the victim. The cyclist died and that is something that the driver of the car will have to live with for the rest of his life. It's a tragedy in it's own right.

    Just my two cents.
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  30. #30
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    I don't have a dog in this hunt.....I use both, and act accordingly. I always assume the motor vehicle driver will not see me....regardless of sidewalk or road use. The fact that we are entitled to use a bike lane has no impact on the realty that most drivers are distracted.....entitlement means **** when you're dead. I like Cenobite's thread....always assume it's going to be your fault, and modify your behavior appropriately, regardless of right or wrong. You'll be the benefactor to such a thought process....and a corpse if you choose to ignore it.....right or wrong, be damned.

    As for RandyBoy..... I thought he was/is the same person as The Prodigal Son? Either way, they're both Walter Sobckak's......




  31. #31
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    I'm glad to see my post in the other more respectful thread was of some value for discussion. Everyone does seem to agree on one thing: sharing the road with cars is extremely dangerous. Having the right of way cycling on the road grants you legal rights, not safe cycling.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonRastafari
    That driver will run over more pedestrians by not looking right than bikes coming at him head on.
    How do you figure?
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    Here's a clue... SIDE WALK, not SIDE RIDE. The sidewalk is buiilt for and dedicated to pedestrians, people on foot, not vehicles, like your bicycle, which is obligated to follow all motor vehicle code rules and regulations of the road. Now if you want to walk your bike on the side walk, that would then make you a pedestrian.
    Randy Boy, does it ever get old being you? I can't imagine it, going through life so perfect and able to judge everyone that doesn't agree with laws and regulations. It must suck holding everyone else to the expectations you put on yourself. Lighten up dude and things might be a little bit more fun for ya!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poi Boy
    Please educate me, why is riding on the sidewalk more dangerous? I actually prefer to ride on the sidewalk, seems a lot safer to me than to take the risk of riding on the actual street. I’m not a road rider or a commuter, but when I ride around my neighborhood, I always stick to the sidewalk if possible.
    Human factors and human expectancy. These topics were a huge part of my Masters degree. The fact is that drivers are NOT expecting to see bicycles on the sidewalk. Even if a rider is there, a driver will look and focus on the road for "fast moving" targets and scan the sidewalk for "slow moving" targets. In other words, they can look at a rider on the sidewalk (from the road, a driveway, etc) and NOT see them. Its the way our brain works and is wired. You cant simply change what someones brain has learned (easily or practically). Drivers "see" riders on the road far better than on the sidewalk. Lots of riders get tagged from cars going in/out of driveways and at turns where they originate on the sidewalk ir generally do not follow rules. This is why.

    The other part is that if cyclists do not follow the rules, why should motorists?
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    How do you figure?
    If said driver "never looks right", he will not see the pedestrian standing behind the phone pole about to cross, or running to catch their bus, or pushing his/her shopping cart full of cans across the crosswalk. Try driving around for a week while never looking right before you turn right and see how many people you hit, then let us know how many were bikers coming the opposite direction and how many were pedestrians trying to cross legally in the crosswalk.
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  37. #37
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    I respect the fact that Bubba driving his 65,000lb. concrete truck shoving a burrito in his face because he's late getting to the job site doesn't see me. Me, 165lbs + cruiser, 45lbs = a grand total of 210lbs. Not exactly an even match.

    Therefore I ride the sidewalk and will only ride on the road if it's absolutely necessary.

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    Wow- did not mean to start a **** storm, but I guess if I did, I am glad we have a seperate thread for that- so thanks for at least using this thread.

    I am not going to preach law. If folks want to ride the sidewalk, fine. If they want to ride the opposite direction fine. No lights, dark clothing at night, riding drunk- I really don't care. The point I am making is this- everytime a "cyclist" is hit, the news is very vague on details- is what it is. That problem raises concerns amongst non-cyclists, the ones who think we are nuts/stupid, and then they go nuts as to why we are on the road.

    Road cycling is about survival. So is war. So is dating. And it's not for everyone. If you were to take a Motorcycle Safety Foundation course, you would learn the number one rule of staying alive on the streets- VISIBILITY and OWNING YOUR COURSE OF TRAVEL. Unfortunately- there are not many classes to take for cyclists and none with the incentive of saving money on your insurance. I get 15% off my moto insurance because I took the course.

    Here are my takes on the two- your results WILL vary based on your riding style, prefered route and other conditions.

    VISIBILITY- I use two taillights, even in daylight. I use my headlamp on flash in heavy traffic during the day. I wear brightly colored lycra. Sure I look like a fool ten feet away from my bike, but lycra was never a pick up kit for me anyway. I wear white gloves- really enhances the hand sigs at night and day. I make sure the reflective bits on my shoes (I use my MTB shoes on the road) are dusted off (but leave the rest of the shoe dirty- pisses off serious roadie to get smoked by a guy in 8 year old SPD's!) and I make sure I am not blocked from view by other cars, trees, bus benches, political billboards etc.

    OWNING COURSE OF TRAVEL- I will pull fully into the lane near a green light if I fear someone is going to speed around me and cut me at the pass, and I make sure they know it. I usually wear eyewear that allows folks to see my eyes. Eye contact is powerful. Signal with authority and like you mean it. Show you belong there and most will begrudgingly respect it.

    Sure- anything I do could turn me into road pizza, but so can anything I don't do. It is a personally weighed risk that I try to mitigate by riding in low traffic areas or bike paths. I don't like sidewalks because it limits my escapes. Most of the time you have 3' of cement flanked by a six inch curb to drop off of left, gravel to suck your wheel and put you on your face to the right or worse a cinder block wall to cheese grate you before it caroms you off the curb. In a bike lane I have curb to the right which I can hop onto or worse case rut up on and crash onto the sidewalk or a couple lanes of traffic (if even for a second) to make a quick manuever.

    Either way folks we all die of something sometime so I am going to hope its on a bike and if it isn't- I will still have a hell of a good time getting there!
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    I think a skilled mountain biker can easily handle the sidewalk and avoid obstacles since they are usually trained to be paying attention at all times. Plus it could be fun to jump those stairs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsavarirayan
    I think a skilled mountain biker can easily handle the sidewalk and avoid obstacles since they are usually trained to be paying attention at all times. Plus it could be fun to jump those stairs.
    Thats why I run a heavy alu road bike with strong wheels. Plus, the kids at smaller dirt jumps like it when I session through!
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    When streets and intersections are designed there is a view triangle that dictates how well and wide a motorist can see in order to enter the intersection. Think of the point of the triangle at your eyes. Widest field of view is farther away giving better visability to a cyclist or car in the road. That is one reason to ride in the road. When I rarely ride on the road it is dictated sidewalk or curb side by the street and visabilty.

    From the Mesa crash analysis report Pedalcyclists were the unit most at fault, Unit 1, in 56.1% of all pedalcycle/motor vehicle crashes. This is a slight decrease from 56.7% in 2007. Pedalcyclists most at fault were most frequently going straight and in opposing
    traffic lane when the crash occurred. Motor vehicle operators were at fault most frequently when they were executing right turns.

    http://www.mesaaz.gov/Transportation...8BikeCrash.pdf

    Think about when you are pulling to a light and going ot make a right hand turn, especialy at a red. You glance right as you approach the light then you watch left looking for your opening. You get on the gas then look back to your right as little Johnny is just about to enter crosswalk and now he is on your hood.

    Read the numbers on the chart or through other city's data and make your own choice. Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything (Homer Simpson).
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    When I was 16 I got nailed going against the traffic, on the sidewalk at a exit of bank that the driver couldn't see anything coming unless they pulled out onto the sidewalk. They tried to get me and my parents to pay for the damages on their car. Could have happened on the other side of the road too. Needless to say, I use this technique as my last option. I'm allways assessing the risk of areas that approach.

    Sometimes the bike lane doesn't look good to ride when it has a split surface like the road was concrete and now it's blacktop and there is a lip right in the middle of it. Hard to ride that and keep your head up. In that situation I ride the sidewalk if there is a lot of traffic on that road.

    If there are a lot of roads or driveways off of the road I'm traveling, I absolutely try to ride in the road with the flow of traffic b/c there are a ton of motorists that don't really think the biker has the right-away, especially if they are on the sidewalk.
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  43. #43
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    I'm not too sure about stats like those, they lump every bike rider into one single pool. There's no separation between those riding outside their driveway without a helmet and those that ride over 100 miles a week for many years. Numbers like those are mere counts, many factors get left out of the stats.

    Does "Protective helmet usage was 4.7% for pedalcyclists involved in crashes." mean that 95.3% were not wearing a helmet? I can't figure that one out.

    Thanks for some facts though, the effort to quantify is always good, it's the conclusions that can be way off sometimes.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    Randy Boy, does it ever get old being you? I can't imagine it, going through life so perfect and able to judge everyone that doesn't agree with laws and regulations. It must suck holding everyone else to the expectations you put on yourself. Lighten up dude and things might be a little bit more fun for ya!
    yea I hear ya, but he is right. Most people on bikes on rt 66 get hit cause they are on the sidewalk riding and cars pulling in or out do not see them and it is the cyclist who is at fault. The bike lane is on the south side of 66 and it is the only place that it is safe to ride.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonRastafari
    If said driver "never looks right", he will not see the pedestrian standing behind the phone pole about to cross, or running to catch their bus, or pushing his/her shopping cart full of cans across the crosswalk. Try driving around for a week while never looking right before you turn right and see how many people you hit, then let us know how many were bikers coming the opposite direction and how many were pedestrians trying to cross legally in the crosswalk.
    How many pedestrians are stoopid enough to not stop when a car enters the crosswalk?
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    Randy Boy, does it ever get old being you? I can't imagine it, going through life so perfect and able to judge everyone that doesn't agree with laws and regulations. It must suck holding everyone else to the expectations you put on yourself. Lighten up dude and things might be a little bit more fun for ya!
    Just because he knows the laws, it doesn't mean that he follows them.

    If you hit a car while riding on the side walk, you're legally responsible for the car and yourself.

    You pretentious fk sticks can all ride on the side walks and get hit for all I care. Not to worry, I'll send out "healing vibes" because it's the very least that I can do and it requires no real action or time.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerDoger
    Just because he knows the laws, it doesn't mean that he follows them.

    If you hit a car while riding on the side walk, you're legally responsible for the car and yourself.

    You pretentious fk sticks can all ride on the side walks and get hit for all I care. Not to worry, I'll send out "healing vibes" because it's the very least that I can do and it requires no real action or time.
    It's a bit pretentious to use the word pretentious in the above comment. Just saying.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    How many pedestrians are stoopid enough to not stop when a car enters the crosswalk?
    Have you ever driven in a city?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Have you ever driven in a city?
    Is this a serious question?

    Here is a simple statement: If you decided to break the law and ride on the sidewalk, you lose all rights to ***** and moan about non-attentive drivers.

    Problem solved.
    Last edited by Casual Observer; 03-15-2011 at 10:00 AM.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    Randy Boy, does it ever get old being you? I can't imagine it, going through life so perfect and able to judge everyone that doesn't agree with laws and regulations. It must suck holding everyone else to the expectations you put on yourself. Lighten up dude and things might be a little bit more fun for ya!
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    I'd rather be wrong than dead-right. Sidewalk, against traffic, whatever yields the most options for me in a given circumstance. This cannot be done following one set of rules like a simpleton.

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    All you "anti-side walk riders" with your statistics need to keep in mind all cyclist are lumped together for these numbers. Little kids, homeless people, your mom...All not paying attention like they should be. Anybody reading this is probably a better rider than 99.9% of the general population. If you pay attention and KNOW you NEVER really have the right of way to a car(because the can crush you) it's way safer than a busy street in the PHX metro area.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Is this a serious question?

    Here is a simple statement: If you decided to break the law and ride on the sidewalk, you lose all rights to ***** and moan about non-attentive drivers.

    Problem solved.

    At least I'll have a greater chance to be alive to ***** and moan!!!!

    When I ride the SIDEWALK, I know this for sure,
    I am in control and able to see what's ahead of me and I make ALL the decision if I should go faster or slower when approching a pedestrian or a driveway or a exit/entry way of a shopping area and always expect them to not see me at all. I "TRUST NO ONE" when it comes to riding/commuting on the city road ways or sidewalks!!!! Now if I don't pay attention I just gave everyone out there a chance to hurt me in some way.

    Now with those satistics of people getting hit by cars on sidewalks from enter/exit ways i can "almost" gaurantee 9 out of 10 that cyclist was either a non-informed rider ie. joe shmoe on a walmart bike riding to work or to his crack dealer.
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    At least I'll have a greater chance to be alive to ***** and moan!!!!

    When I ride the SIDEWALK, I know this for sure,
    I am in control and able to see what's ahead of me and I make ALL the decision if I should go faster or slower when approching a pedestrian or a driveway or a exit/entry way of a shopping area and always expect them to not see me at all. I "TRUST NO ONE" when it comes to riding/commuting on the city road ways or sidewalks!!!! Now if I don't pay attention I just gave everyone out there a chance to hurt me in some way.

    Now with those satistics of people getting hit by cars on sidewalks from enter/exit ways i can "almost" gaurantee 9 out of 10 that cyclist was either a non-informed rider ie. joe shmoe on a walmart bike riding to work or to his crack dealer.
    exactly
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    Now with those satistics of people getting hit by cars on sidewalks from enter/exit ways i can "almost" gaurantee 9 out of 10 that cyclist was either a non-informed rider ie. joe shmoe on a walmart bike riding to work or to his crack dealer.
    And I'd venture to say that the majority of those actually riding on sidewalks fall into this category.

    Like I said above, riding on the sidewalk is your decision (and as I said above as well, I do it too). But if you get hit, you don't have a right to blame the driver.

    P.S. Do you look behind you every time you cross a driveway or an store entrance?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    And I'd venture to say that the majority of those actually riding on sidewalks fall into this category.

    Like I said above, riding on the sidewalk is your decision (and as I said above as well, I do it too). But if you get hit, you don't have a right to blame the driver.

    P.S. Do you look behind you every time you cross a driveway or an store entrance?

    Like I said if I get hit while on a side walk from a car coming from the road that would be a one in a milion shot. Now if I get hit by a driveway or store entrance I more than likely wasn't paying attention. I look to my left ALL the time!!!!!!!!!! And with my post neck injury it's not easy to do so I slow down to give my self time to look and assest the situation! Like I said "I TRUST NO ONE" when I ride on public roadways!!!!! I even apply this when I am driving my truck. Now if I was to be a roadie trying to get a work out and put some serious miles down then I would do so where I wouldn't have to do any of this. Here in AZ we have lots of roads that are long and straight to where cars have lots of time to see you and adjust accordingly. Riding in the city to get your so call workout miles, to me, is just stupid.

    Yes I do! Especially if the wife and I are on our beach crusier going to dinner or something. I look behind to make sure the car is not planning on making a right turn to the entry way and I always ride infront with a good distance of my wife so If anyone gets hit I'll get hit first and not her. Also since I am further up fron I try my best to be seen while crossing said way and slow down, and if it looks they don't see me I back off and stop the wife. Happens almost every time we go for a ride. That's why we ride bright beach crusiers and bright clothes to help. At night we are lite up like a f'n christmas tree!!!

    Next time you are driving and you happen to look across to the the other driver you are passing or you are passing. Lookat their posture and what they are doing. Almost with out fail, they are driving with their chin up in the air mouth open and this glaze look over the eyes. All they are thinking about is getting to their point "B".
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    And I'd venture to say that the majority of those actually riding on sidewalks fall into this category.

    Like I said above, riding on the sidewalk is your decision (and as I said above as well, I do it too). But if you get hit, you don't have a right to blame the driver.

    P.S. Do you look behind you every time you cross a driveway or an store entrance?

    so here's a little story - I was riding with my daughter on a trail-a-bike, and there are 2 pedestrian tunnels running under Frank Lloyd Wright and Thompson Peak, which dump you into a sidewalk next to a strip mall. Rather than riding through the parking lot of a busy strip mall, or back on the street of an *extremely* busy intersection, we got onto the sidewalk to clear the strip mall before hopping back in the bike lane. We went about 5 mph, knowing the ambiguous situation we were in - yes I'm sure of the speed cause I checked my gps. There is now about 20 feet of very slow-moving pedestrians here, my wife if behind us pulling the bike trailer. A guy in a car is creeping up to the intersection staring at his iphone, never saw us til i hit my brakes and yelled 'HEY LOOK UP!'. Then he proceeded to tell us how cyclists all think we own the roads and curse us out. Skinny, you like a good debate, so convince me we were in the wrong cause I was on a bike creeping at a walking pace on the sidewalk and a guy is texting while his car is moving

    Back on point - worry about yourself, cars are the enemy and drivers are all out to kill you, carry rocks in your pocket and throw them liberally when cars cut you off or run you out of an intersection, stop telling other riders how to ride. Riders are the only ones paying any attention whatsoever to how other riders ride, cars don't see you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    And I'd venture to say that the majority of those actually riding on sidewalks fall into this category.

    Like I said above, riding on the sidewalk is your decision (and as I said above as well, I do it too). But if you get hit, you don't have a right to blame the driver.

    P.S. Do you look behind you every time you cross a driveway or an store entrance?
    I would say no, before taking a right hand turn, I don't allways look in my side mirros or out my rear quarter window to see if a biker is on the sidewalk, in process of entering the same intersection as me. I probably look a lot more than the population that doesn't ride bikes does though.


    in my defense of my earlier post and to clarify me being a statistic, it was a Saturday and I was 16 and riding my bike to work on residential roads with medium sized front driveways and very clear intersections. I then approached the business district that was accross the street from my job. I was likely going around 15mph and this was on a road bike. The fense and hedge was basically all the way up to sidewalk and driveway. A runner could have been hit in the same manor but I was actually moving fast and couldn't stop in time. I was actually hit in the front and was donkey punched infront of the vehicle with my bike. My hip and shoulder hit the hood. I, nor the bike went completely over the hood. Luckily my left leg was probably at the top of the stroke and my leg/ankle was not hit by the car. I was only scrapped up and wasn't wearing a helmet either. My parents never bought me one and in Iowa, not even motorcyclists were required to wear one at the time. At the time we thought this was at the fault of the combination of driver and yard design. I would say it was my fault now.

    I've definitely seen moronic college students get nailed not following the laws of the road though. Even people doing Endos and going over the front approaching an intersection on the sidewalk. At least one person per year gets clobberd by a bus on an Iowa college campus. Riding fast around the Greek area was fun but ever so dangerous with all those young drivers. Cars parked on both sides of the road basically represented small alleys for two cars to fit down. needless to say, I stayed off the roads and rode on sidewalks, went through campus yards and down stairs whenever needed.

    this also reminds me of a movie type incident. My little brother got in to a head end collision with a car while he was on a bike in a neighborhood. He was on the street going down a hill and made a right turn and the car approached the same intersection in the middle of the residential road. As the car hit the bike's front tire, he had cat like reflexes and somehow was able to jump over the car and landed on his feet and rolled forward practically un-scathed. My brother was lucky it was only a Geo Metro. The driver was terrified! It was an amazing site to see!


    To each their own on what the safest path is. It's all in the numbers, kind of like the odds of being hit in your own car but maybe a little more preventable and definitely not completely preventable.. .

    Be safe all!
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poi Boy
    I understand that it is a SIDE WALK. I didn't ask you to educate me on what it is for. My point is that it is SAFER to ride on the sidewalk rather than the road.

    If I get hit by a car on the sidewalk, that means the vehicle has left the road and jumped the curb, so I'm sure I would be worse off if I were in the bike lane or on the street. Also, I'm sure that dealing with insurance (if I'm not dead) will not be an issue.

    I understand the point of a vehicle not seeing a cyclist while pulling into traffic, but if I'm entering/crossing a street or intersection, I make sure there are no vehicles present or I make damn sure that I yield or they see me. Same rules I follow when I'm a pedestrian taking a walk with my family.
    http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
    use cntl+f (command+f for mac) and use search term "sidewalk " to see all instances involving sidewalks.

    Particularly interesting, is this little graph:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by luckybastard
    All you "anti-side walk riders" with your statistics need to keep in mind all cyclist are lumped together for these numbers. Little kids, homeless people, your mom...All not paying attention like they should be. Anybody reading this is probably a better rider than 99.9% of the general population. If you pay attention and KNOW you NEVER really have the right of way to a car(because the can crush you) it's way safer than a busy street in the PHX metro area.
    And should also know better than to be a doo$h and ride on the sidewalk

    One of the most aggravating things to see (besides "Salmon" riders), are cyclists who look like they know what time it is (nice bike, riding gear, helmet, etc) riding on the damn sidewalk. I'm not talkin about joe scmoe - I'm talking about experienced cyclists - i.e. "you guys".

    If you want the respect of drivers and to be treated like like equals as VEHICLES, then god damnit , ACT LIKE ONE!
    Last edited by highdelll; 03-15-2011 at 01:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
    use cntl+f (command+f for mac) and use search term "sidewalk " to see all instances involving sidewalks.

    Particularly interesting, is this little graph:
    327 commuters in a span of 333 years and millions of roads. One in a million!
    Now out of the 327 commuters how many really know how to ride defensively? I bet 99% of that 327 is also joe schmoe going down the street for a pack of beer or the neighborhood drug dealer! Most people who do use the road are more likely an avid rider so the numbers a less cause they are more aware! Those same road riders put them on a sidewalk with their alertness and awareness of other cars and people it'll be significantly less than the 77 listed.

    Oh and I don't want to be equal to vehicles when I'm on a bike. Are you F'n crazy

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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    327 commuters in a span of 333 years and millions of roads. One in a million!
    Now out of the 327 commuters how many really know how to ride defensively? I bet 99% of that 327 is also joe schmoe going down the street for a pack of beer or the neighborhood drug dealer! Most people who do use the road are more likely an avid rider so the numbers a less cause they are more aware! Those same road riders put them on a sidewalk with their alertness and awareness of other cars and people it'll be significantly less than the 77 listed.
    I once saw a kid pedaling down my street with a 30 pack of Keystone balanced on his handlebars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    ...

    Oh and I don't want to be equal to vehicles when I'm on a bike. Are you F'n crazy
    I take it you and other "sidewalk aficionados" here are not commuters then.

    Not only are sidewalks more dangerous, they're also a pain in the butt to actually get anywhere.

    Note too, on that page it is shown that it's 5-7times deadlier to be a ped than a cyclist.
    I'd consider a bike rider on the sidewalk to be half-ped/half-cyclist.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

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    Quote Originally Posted by KavuRider
    I once saw a kid pedaling down my street with a 30 pack of Keystone balanced on his handlebars.
    I was in awe of his bike handling skills.
    Wait wasn't that azdog?

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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    I take it you and other "sidewalk aficionados" here are not commuters then.
    I don't ride sidewalks.
    I am a commuter and I do a lot of road riding. In traffic. Have the scars to prove it as well.

    But I don't care what other people do.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    Wait wasn't that azdog?
    Shorter and browner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    I take it you and other "sidewalk aficionados" here are not commuters then.
    If by commuters, as people who commute between two points of destinations, then yes we are good sir. But if you have the impression that we are road riders using the sidewalk then of course not. Duh!

    Just think of it this way, a average driver will not assest their speed and be patient for a bike they are coming up to from behind. Nor are they going to take the extra effort to make sure to look twice before making a turn!

    As we, your so called "sidewalk aficionados" tend to asses their surrounding so they do not get hit our hit any pedestrian more frequently and we travel at a slower rate of speed.

    Keep riding the roads and my friend and hopefully we won't have a thread about you in the future!

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    And should also know better than to be a doo$h and ride on the sidewalk

    One of the most aggravating things to see (besides "Salmon" riders), are cyclists who look like they know what time it is (nice bike, riding gear, helmet, etc) riding on the damn sidewalk. I'm not talkin about joe scmoe - I'm talking about experienced cyclists - i.e. "you guys".

    If you want the respect of drivers and to be treated like like equals as VEHICLES, then god damnit , ACT LIKE ONE!

    There's lies, damn lies, and then statistics. I would rather hit a car, or be hit by a car doing 5mph coming out of a parking lot then someone doing 45 puttin on lipstick and running my ass over.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    so here's a little story - I was riding with my daughter on a trail-a-bike, and there are 2 pedestrian tunnels running under Frank Lloyd Wright and Thompson Peak, which dump you into a sidewalk next to a strip mall. Rather than riding through the parking lot of a busy strip mall, or back on the street of an *extremely* busy intersection, we got onto the sidewalk to clear the strip mall before hopping back in the bike lane. We went about 5 mph, knowing the ambiguous situation we were in - yes I'm sure of the speed cause I checked my gps. There is now about 20 feet of very slow-moving pedestrians here, my wife if behind us pulling the bike trailer. A guy in a car is creeping up to the intersection staring at his iphone, never saw us til i hit my brakes and yelled 'HEY LOOK UP!'. Then he proceeded to tell us how cyclists all think we own the roads and curse us out. Skinny, you like a good debate, so convince me we were in the wrong cause I was on a bike creeping at a walking pace on the sidewalk and a guy is texting while his car is moving

    Back on point - worry about yourself, cars are the enemy and drivers are all out to kill you, carry rocks in your pocket and throw them liberally when cars cut you off or run you out of an intersection, stop telling other riders how to ride. Riders are the only ones paying any attention whatsoever to how other riders ride, cars don't see you.
    Every single one of us can come up with an exception. I'm positive each and every one of us has come upon a wreckless cyclists who put him/herself in danger.

    Let's go back to what sparked this original post: the death of Sally Meyeroff. By all accounts, she was 100% at fault. Why is this all of a sudden turning into a us vs. them debate?

    All I'm saying is, everybody who is suggesting they are safer on the sidewalk is a bit misinformed. And to suggest that "all cyclists" are safer by riding on the sidewalk (which is exactly what they are doing, whether intentional or not) is risky. There are a lot of cyclists who assume they do own the road (or the sidewalk) and assume motorists see them. As everybody has pointed out, us informed cyclist know better. But we're the minority, unfortunately.

    Hell, if you want to gurantee your safety, leave the bike at home and drive everywhere.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos
    There's lies, damn lies, and then statistics. I would rather hit a car, or be hit by a car doing 5mph coming out of a parking lot then someone doing 45 puttin on lipstick and running my ass over.
    Meh, ya just cant win - If I came in here and said x is more dangerous than y, I'd get "hey! where's your sources?" - or "Oh, that's just anecdotal - you have no proof" - But when one cites sources (or a source w/ sources inside), you get the "oh, those are just statistics - they don't apply to me"

    why can't that happen on a sidewalk?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    why can't that happen on a sidewalk?
    stats show that it only happens on the street.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Every single one of us can come up with an exception. I'm positive each and every one of us has come upon a wreckless cyclists who put him/herself in danger.

    Let's go back to what sparked this original post: the death of Sally Meyeroff. By all accounts, she was 100% at fault. Why is this all of a sudden turning into a us vs. them debate?


    All I'm saying is, everybody who is suggesting they are safer on the sidewalk is a bit misinformed. And to suggest that "all cyclists" are safer by riding on the sidewalk (which is exactly what they are doing, when intentional or not.)

    Hell, if you want to gurantee your safety, leave the bike at home and drive everywhere.
    All I'm saying is I commute by sidewalk. I do my hard miles on dirt.

    Keep the hard road mikes away from the major city streets. If you are commuting to your destination for some hard miles do so. Commute in a manner to get you there. Put your head down and concentrate on your intervals when you get to that long stretch of road more friendly to road riders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    All I'm saying is I commute by sidewalk. I do my hard miles on dirt.

    Keep the hard road mikes away from the major city streets. If you are commuting to your destination for some hard miles do so. Commute in a manner to get you there. Put your head down and concentrate on your intervals when you get to that long stretch of road more friendly to road riders.
    I typically do my hard miles riding to the liquor store.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    Just think of it this way, a average driver will not assest their speed and be patient for a bike they are coming up to from behind. Nor are they going to take the extra effort to make sure to look twice before making a turn!
    Where did you come up with that? I'd venture to say that the majority of motorists are cognizant of their surroundings, and take extra precaution around cyclists.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Where did you come up with that? I'd venture to say that the majority of motorists are cognizant of their surroundings, and take extra precaution around cyclists.
    As much as I think DDB doesn't ever know what he's talking about, I have to agree with him here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Where did you come up with that? I'd venture to say that the majority of motorists are cognizant of their surroundings, and take extra precaution around cyclists.
    And oddly more at night for me with my super bright Serfas TL-200 strobing out back and my MS-1400 balzin' up front .
    One would think it sketchier in the dark, but I feel drivers give a wider berth, don't cut across my path as much, etc.
    I wonder if there's stats on that?

    Minor interjection here - If you go ride at night and especially if you ride on the road, consider glove's the these Giro Remedy's - the white contrasts great so the driver can see your indications (pointing) and/or gestures indicating how "great" they are driving!


    (thread needed a pic anyway)
    now, back to arguing about sidewalks...
    Last edited by highdelll; 03-15-2011 at 02:50 PM.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  77. #77
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    I think this one has run its course folks. Unless that is someone has something really witty to add.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Where did you come up with that? I'd venture to say that the majority of motorists are cognizant of their surroundings, and take extra precaution around cyclists.

    Really, are you wanting actual satistics? I am going by real world drivers here in phoenix. I am really flabagasted about this. I see this on my drive in to work literaly every day and watch drivers almost hit pedestrian or cyclist all the time let alone other cars!!! Every time I am on the road driving I always, and I will not use it loosely, always see some on almost hit a bike or a pedestrian that was either on a sidewalk or bike lane. That's why my wife has the new truck cause she works at 5 am and I have the old 98' 4runner.


    Come ride your bike down south on 7st from union hills and see if you don't come to a near death experience while riding your so called "right to the road". No bike lanes after Bell, so it's either the road or sidewalk choose your death!!!

    I have commuted to work a handful of times and will definitly stick to the sidewalks. It's easier for me to dodge the crack heads then it is a car coming from behind.

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    I love passionate Doo.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmarkos
    I love passionate Doo.
    I prefer drunk Doo but this is pretty entertaining as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    Really, are you wanting actual satistics? I am going by real world drivers here in phoenix. I am really flabagasted about this. I see this on my drive in to work literaly every day and watch drivers almost hit pedestrian or cyclist all the time let alone other cars!!! Every time I am on the road driving I always, and I will not use it loosely, always see some on almost hit a bike or a pedestrian that was either on a sidewalk or bike lane. That's why my wife has the new truck cause she works at 5 am and I have the old 98' 4runner.


    Come ride your bike down south on 7st from union hills and see if you don't come to a near death experience while riding your so called "right to the road". No bike lanes after Bell, so it's either the road or sidewalk choose your death!!!

    I have commuted to work a handful of times and will definitly stick to the sidewalks. It's easier for me to dodge the crack heads then it is a car coming from behind.
    So, you're saying that of the 10 motorists I encounter, more than 5 of them are unaware of their surroundings? I disagree.

    I've ridden my bike on very busy streets, some with some without bike lanes. I've ridden both at night, in the day, at dawn and dusk. Both on the road as well as the sidewalk. My preception is that I'm in danger, that every single car that passes me is waaaayyy ttttooooo close, and I'm sure is buzzing me because they don't see me or because they don't want to share the road with me. Reality is, I've come away from every single one of those rides unscathed, and I've venture to say it's because 90% (or more?) of the drivers take the extra precaution to ensure my safety.

    Question: If you *see* near accidents daily, why don't we hear about more serious or fatal accidents involving cyclists or pedestrians? Law of averages would suggest that if this is happening as often as some are suggesting, then we'd hear about this more. What's the explanation?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Why is this all of a sudden turning into a us vs. them debate?

    imo, it is me vs. all the cars. Most of the time I feel safer in the street, but if i don't, I really don't care about right\wrong - cars don't follow the rules, and you don't get a 2nd chance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KavuRider
    I prefer drunk Doo but this is pretty entertaining as well.
    Wasn't it drunken tummy stix that led to your broken ribs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidhucker
    Wasn't it drunken tummy stix that led to your broken ribs?
    But it was worth it.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    Meh, ya just cant win - If I came in here and said x is more dangerous than y, I'd get "hey! where's your sources?"
    Dude, you can't just start throwing out claims like this without any kind of supporting data.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  86. #86
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    Man do I love living in a fact-optional world. Why trust the math when your feelings tell you something different?

    Good luck up on the sidewalk!
    Don't be that guy! Read the forum guidelines.

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    So, you're saying that of the 10 motorists I encounter, more than 5 of them are unaware of their surroundings? I disagree.

    I've ridden my bike on very busy streets, some with some without bike lanes. I've ridden both at night, in the day, at dawn and dusk. Both on the road as well as the sidewalk. My preception is that I'm in danger, that every single car that passes me is waaaayyy ttttooooo close, and I'm sure is buzzing me because they don't see me or because they don't want to share the road with me. Reality is, I've come away from every single one of those rides unscathed, and I've venture to say it's because 90% (or more?) of the drivers take the extra precaution to ensure my safety.

    Question: If you *see* near accidents daily, why don't we hear about more serious or fatal accidents involving cyclists or pedestrians? Law of averages would suggest that if this is happening as often as some are suggesting, then we'd hear about this more. What's the explanation?

    Like the old saying goes " if a tree falls in the middle of the forest and no one hears or sees it fall, did it really fall?"

    You got to be really kidding me right with this question! The reason most anal people are never happy is cause nothing can be perfect.

    Ok, here, for entertainment, did you hear on the news or in your "Laws of Average" about 2 months ago on 7th St. just south of the 101 loop a white nissan sentra hits a blue two door BMW on the intersection of 7st and beardsly? The white sedan heading south on 7th St. swerves over the bike lane nearly hitting two kids walking home from school (on the sidewalk) and hits a blue BMW that was sitting at a Stop sign on Beardsly. The nissian had enough speed to knock the BMW sideways, jumping the curb taking out the stop sign crashing through the front yard wall of the house on the corner and abruptly stopping in the front yard.

    Guess what that happened right on the entrance way to my street where I live which is Beardsly. I came home to three cop cars an ambulance and two tow trucks. But guess you would of known right thru your "laws of averages" and so called news or satistic report.

    Got another one for you. Shortly after this passing new year a car exactly one house away from my house explodes and goes up in flames. Thank god it was in the side of the house where the large wall is and no damages to neither my home or the neighbors. Got pictures on my facebook to prove that one.

    Come'on Skinny, I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong or whatever I am just pointing out the obvious here. Even though no sort of reaserch can show what you see on a day to day basis. Plus I don't think the half hour to an hour news havs enough time to get all the report of every hit and run nor does the newpaper. Now maybe if you go to the local police department and ask for a record of cyclist and pedestrian incident in the last month they may produce a shocking amount of info or just prove that I am worng. Just to make you happy!

    Don't worry guys and gals this is my last post for me on this thread!!!!! whew I know!

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by doodooboi
    Come'on Skinny, I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong or whatever I am just pointing out the obvious here.
    I'm just not sure what the obvious is. You've made a couple statements suggesting that the majority of (or average) motorists are a danger to themselves, to cyclists, and to pedestrians. I have no problem saying this is an inaccurate statement.

    P.S. No need to get your panties in a bunch. I thought we were having a civil disagreement. And my question was 100% serious.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    And should also know better than to be a doo$h and ride on the sidewalk

    One of the most aggravating things to see (besides "Salmon" riders), are cyclists who look like they know what time it is (nice bike, riding gear, helmet, etc) riding on the damn sidewalk. I'm not talkin about joe scmoe - I'm talking about experienced cyclists - i.e. "you guys".

    If you want the respect of drivers and to be treated like like equals as VEHICLES, then god damnit , ACT LIKE ONE!
    Well since we've resorted to name calling, I suggest the next time you see someone riding a black firebird on the sidewalks from elliot & I-10 to somo you stop and call him a *****. See how that works out for you.
    Since the mods obviously share your view on the topic and have issued no warnings on "playing nice" I suspect they are okay with this thread being less than civil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobite39
    Well since we've resorted to name calling, I suggest the next time you see someone riding a black firebird on the sidewalks from elliot & I-10 to somo you stop and call him a *****. See how that works out for you.
    Since the mods obviously share your view on the topic and have issued no warnings on "playing nice" I suspect they are okay with this thread being less than civil.
    I wasn't speaking directly to "YOU" or anyone in particular - calm down

    You don't think experienced cyclists should know better?
    bikes interfering w/ peds? no prob...
    causing confusion to motorists? no big...
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobite39
    Well since we've resorted to name calling, I suggest the next time you see someone riding a black firebird on the sidewalks from elliot & I-10 to somo you stop and call him a *****. See how that works out for you.
    Since the mods obviously share your view on the topic and have issued no warnings on "playing nice" I suspect they are okay with this thread being less than civil.
    WTF, since when is "Bandit" considered a cuss word?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    I wasn't speaking directly to "YOU" or anyone in particular - calm down

    You don't think experienced cyclists should know better?
    bikes interfering w/ peds? no prob...
    causing confusion to motorists? no big...
    I'm very calm.
    You feel it's safer to ride the road and I feel its safer to ride the sidewalk. I'm cool with that but you're the one who had to get unprofessional with it so I felt the need to check you. No big deal.

  93. #93
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    Seriously Paul- delete this thread. All I tried to do was move a healthy debate away from a tragic thread and some ass hats in here can't hang.

    Funny- three hours ago I post to kill it, and there are six more posts and who knows how many more looks? I post an hour ago to go ride and nada. Bunch of pansies.

    And for all you Factoid folks- this is a freaking forum, which is a court of public opinion so your facts will only resonate and apply to those who share the same opinion. Do you need to argue about that? Please Paul- lock it or lose it.
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  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstem
    Seriously Paul- delete this thread. All I tried to do was move a healthy debate away from a tragic thread and some ass hats in here can't hang.

    Funny- three hours ago I post to kill it, and there are six more posts and who knows how many more looks? I post an hour ago to go ride and nada. Bunch of pansies.

    And for all you Factoid folks- this is a freaking forum, which is a court of public opinion so your facts will only resonate and apply to those who share the same opinion. Do you need to argue about that? Please Paul- lock it or lose it.
    Classic.
    Have you bothered to read the responses?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Liars' figure and figures lie.........

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    Delete the thread because highdelll and I are being a little stupid?
    I'm starting to agree with Skinnytires signature. Keep it up and highdelll and I will take our threats and name calling to a forum that will better appreciate us.
    AZFREERIDE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobite39
    Delete the thread because highdelll and I are being a little stupid?
    I'm starting to agree with Skinnytires signature. Keep it up and highdelll and I will take our threats and name calling to a forum that will better appreciate us.
    AZFREERIDE!
    are we allowed to do that?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    are we allowed to do that?
    I think we'll get banned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobite39
    I think we'll get banned.
    No one gets banned on AZFR. I've tried many times. Well maybe Jrock.
    Mayo Clinic Phx. Kidney TX 06-20-2019

  100. #100
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    Double post
    Last edited by Cenobite39; 03-15-2011 at 08:29 PM.

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    abc 123
    Last edited by highdelll; 03-15-2011 at 09:31 PM.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    I'd venture to say that the majority of motorists are cognizant of their surroundings, and take extra precaution around cyclists.


    This is almost as funny as some of the things Charlie Sheen has said lately!!!

    Either he's been sharing his stash with you, or you haven't been driving down here in Tucson.

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    Zing!
    a real Dirkbag!

  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    Man do I love living in a fact-optional world. Why trust the math when your feelings tell you something different?
    Everyone is special.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002


    This is almost as funny as some of the things Charlie Sheen has said lately!!!

    Either he's been sharing his stash with you, or you haven't been driving down here in Tucson.
    No offense, but you're delusional if you think that the majority of the drivers are not focused on driving. Back to my earlier comment: preceived risk and actual risk are two different things. When we are on a bike, we assume that every single driver is texting, speeding, putting on their makeup. In reality, very few on not giving *most* of their attention to actually driving (notice I said "most.").

    Do yourself a favor, and count how many drivers you see on the sidestreets who are doing one of the things I mentioned above. I guarantee is less than 50%.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    No offense, but you're delusional if you think that the majority of the drivers are not focused on driving. Back to my earlier comment: preceived risk and actual risk are two different things. When we are on a bike, we assume that every single driver is texting, speeding, putting on their makeup. In reality, very few on not giving *most* of their attention to actually driving (notice I said "most.").

    Do yourself a favor, and count how many drivers you see on the sidestreets who are doing one of the things I mentioned above. I guarantee is less than 50%.
    Wow, so just under half the drivers out there are not paying attention. This should really boost riders confidence in their safety.

    So if you get passed by 1000 cars on a ride through town you only have to worry about getting ran over by 499 of them.

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    Wow, so just under half the drivers out there are not paying attention. This should really boost riders confidence in their safety.

    So if you get passed by 1000 cars on a ride through town you only have to worry about getting ran over by 499 of them.
    Where did I say "just under half"? I said less than 50%, since some here have suggested that the majority (more than 50%) of drivers are in attentive.

    Just do me a favor and count, and then come back with your findings.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  108. #108
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    Just the other day I saw a man texting while going up the on-ramp. A car was stalled on the shoulder, with the driver standing in front of the car with the hood up. The texter kept going straight as the on ramp curved, and was a sheer moment from slamming into the back of the stalled car at 45mph, as I blaired on the horn behind. He looked up and swerved and barely missed the stalled car. He then continued texting while on the freeway as if he had not just almost killed a man.

    Had this been a different road with riders on the shoulder, he could have hit them. If he could not see a car ahead he would not see a bicycle rider.

    The very next day on the same on-ramp I watched another car in front of me do the same thing, and run off the road, barely keeping from rolling his vehicle as he swerved back off the dirt onto the on-ramp. And this ramp has a shoulder that is a full car lane width. He too continued texting when he hit the freeway.

    With these guys on the road, I don't think the sidewalk is much safer.

    I'll stick to the cactus and rocks, instead of playing on the streets with these assclowns!!

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    Just the other day I saw a man texting while going up the on-ramp. A car was stalled on the shoulder, with the driver standing in front of the car with the hood up. The texter kept going straight as the on ramp curved, and was a sheer moment from slamming into the back of the stalled car at 45mph, as I blaired on the horn behind. He looked up and swerved and barely missed the stalled car. He then continued texting while on the freeway as if he had not just almost killed a man.

    Had this been a different road with riders on the shoulder, he could have hit them. If he could not see a car ahead he would not see a bicycle rider.

    The very next day on the same on-ramp I watched another car in front of me do the same thing, and run off the road, barely keeping from rolling his vehicle as he swerved back off the dirt onto the on-ramp. And this ramp has a shoulder that is a full car lane width. He too continued texting when he hit the freeway.

    With these guys on the road, I don't think the sidewalk is much safer.

    I'll stick to the cactus and rocks, instead of playing on the streets with these assclowns!!
    Just so I'm clear, two out of hundreds of motorists were clueless?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    I used to ride on sidewalk until I got t-boned by a driver who rolled a stop sign while he was looking left and I was coming from his right. No serious injuries, but I wanted to beat the piss outta that guy. I just yelled at him and rode off.

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    @ twowheelsdown2002,
    I find it interesting/funny that the two examples that you give are set on the freeway (no bike or pedestrian traffic) vs city streets.

  112. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDubT
    I used to ride on sidewalk until I got t-boned by a driver who rolled a stop sign while he was looking left and I was coming from his right. No serious injuries, but I wanted to beat the piss outta that guy. I just yelled at him and rode off.
    Why exactly did you yell at him? I'd venture to say that you (and most of us) would have done the same thing if you were driving, no?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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  114. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Just so I'm clear, two out of hundreds of motorists were clueless?
    I did not know we could ride our road bikes on the freeway. Cool. I'll be careful on the on-ramps.
    Mayo Clinic Phx. Kidney TX 06-20-2019

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by trb2929
    I did not know we could ride our road bikes on the freeway. Cool. I'll be careful on the on-ramps.
    Actually, you can ride I-10 up to Flag.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  116. #116
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    I just read an interesting article on ABC15's website this morning about cyclist deaths in AZ, part of a week-long series on pedestrian safety. It's a thoughtful mix of stats and sentiments, a pretty good read.

  117. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Where did I say "just under half"? I said less than 50%, since some here have suggested that the majority (more than 50%) of drivers are in attentive.

    Just do me a favor and count, and then come back with your findings.
    While not claiming to be a "rocket scientist" at math, the last time I looked 50%, and "half" were considered the same thing.

    So when Charlie Sheen says he is going to share "half" of his crack with you, or says he will share "50%" with you, it should be the same amount. I wouldn't want you to get ripped off.

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Why exactly did you yell at him? I'd venture to say that you (and most of us) would have done the same thing if you were driving, no?
    Probably something along the lines of "watch were you're f8cking going" and "Stop sign means STOP!"....and no, I would not have done the same thing if I was driving. I would stop at the stop sign.

  119. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajmelin
    @ twowheelsdown2002,
    I find it interesting/funny that the two examples that you give are set on the freeway (no bike or pedestrian traffic) vs city streets.
    Yeah, I imagine these guys don't ever text anywhere else.

  120. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Just so I'm clear, two out of hundreds of motorists were clueless?
    No, these were just the 2 asshats that I happened to personnally witness running off the road.

    This is a drop in the bucket compared to the others that did not make their total lack of attention blatantly clear. All you have to do is drive down the road and take a glance at what drivers are doing.

    It does not take 2, or even 200 of these idiots. One will suffice to flatten you.

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Actually, you can ride I-10 up to Flag.
    How is that possible

  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDubT
    Probably something along the lines of "watch were you're f8cking going" and "Stop sign means STOP!"....and no, I would not have done the same thing if I was driving. I would stop at the stop sign.
    If you say so.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    If you say so.
    Is that some type of unbelievable statement that I made? What would you do if you were the driver in that situation?

  124. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    No, these were just the 2 asshats that I happened to personnally witness running off the road.

    This is a drop in the bucket compared to the others that did not make their total lack of attention blatantly clear. All you have to do is drive down the road and take a glance at what drivers are doing.

    It does not take 2, or even 200 of these idiots. One will suffice to flatten you.
    Then you shouldn't be surprised if you get hit.

    Like I said before, if you want guarantee that you wont' get hit riding your bike on the road, then don't ride it. I think every single one of us is very aware that there are clueless drivers out on the street. Why does that surprise you.

    I'm arguing that the large majority of motorists are cognizant of their surroundings.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDubT
    Is that some type of unbelievable statement that I made? What would you do if you were the driver in that situation?
    Just so I'm clear, you were riding on the sidewalk and against traffic, you saw a car approaching the stop sign, and decided that it was safe to cross in front of him? If that's accurate, and I was driving, I would have yelled back "quick riding on the sidewalk against traffic, idiot!"

    Let me guess, you also yell at drivers who drive over the speed limit.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  126. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo
    How is that possible
    Oh, shut up. I put maybe 5K a year on my car. You expect me to remember the numbers of all these damn highway too? I have enough issues with trail numbers.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    While not claiming to be a "rocket scientist" at math, the last time I looked 50%, and "half" were considered the same thing.

    So when Charlie Sheen says he is going to share "half" of his crack with you, or says he will share "50%" with you, it should be the same amount. I wouldn't want you to get ripped off.
    If I'm not mistaken, I said "less than half" not "just less than half." Last time, I check 1% was less than half. My comment was to the folks who say the "majority" of drivers are a danger on the road. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "majority" is the same thing as "more than 50%."

    Has Charlie Sheen replaced the nazis in Godwin's Law?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  128. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    I'm arguing that the large majority of motorists are cognizant of their surroundings.
    I absolutely agree with you.

    Most drivers are indeed totally aware of all the stuff surrounding them.

    Their cell phone.(gotta see that "love ya babe" message, it's important)
    Their Starbucks Frappuccino.
    Their CD/stereo controls.
    Their I-Pod.
    Their text message they are typing.("love ya back babe")
    Their air conditioner control knobs.
    Their Big Mac, and/or Carne Asada burrito falling on their lap.
    Their CD case where they are choosing between Katy Perry, or Snoop Dog.
    Their electric razor.
    Their makeup mirror.
    Their makeup bag (shall it be cherry red or wild tango in brazil red?)
    Their daily planner.
    Their purse(where is that darn day after pill anyway?)
    Their check book(I watched a lady balance her check book while riding beside her on my motorcycle)
    Their passenger(talking with the hands and looking at them is required of course)
    Their road map.
    Their navigation system.
    Their latest Tom Clancy novel.(commuting is a great time to kill a good book)
    Their kids.(don't they know what trunks are for?)
    Their dogs.(not in the trunk, that would be cruel, I do have a heart)

    Yep, drivers are indeed aware of all this stuff in their surroundings, and occasionally they get a glance out the front of that tv screen looking piece of glass in front of them.

    Thump!! Thump!! "Hey what was that? Probably nothing. Ahh, Snoop Dog it is. Better roll one up for this music."

  129. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    I absolutely agree with you.
    ...causation 'argument'...

    Thump!! Thump!! "Hey what was that? Probably nothing. Ahh, Snoop Dog it is. Better roll one up for this music."
    Makes me not want to drive down two-lane HWYs - Head-On Collisions are teh suck!
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  130. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    Makes me not want to drive down two-lane HWYs - Head-On Collisions are teh suck!
    I must say highdell, that I totally agree with you about the night riding thing. I used to ride my road bike on a nice 45 mile loop that was full of big hills, through forest and farms in Oregon.

    During the day rednecks in PC trucks(Penile Compensators) would go by so close you swear you could feel the mirror brush your shirt sleeve on the way by. (it would take too much effort to move the steering wheel 3 inches to the left, and back again) That, and "what do any dern cyclists need to be on a road fer anyhoo?" "Bet they don"t even pay any road taxes by buying gasoline"

    During the night I would ride with an HID helmet light, and a couple of the very bright led tail lights. (not the cheapy $6 ones you can see from about 50 feet at best) I used some made by Specialized that were very bright.

    I think I looked like farmer John on a piece of farm equipment, because at night what few cars there were would go all the way in the other lane. Plus, at night with all the lights you are in extreme contrast to the darkness, and drivers can't see to gawk at cows and sheep. During the day you might blend into the background easily, and drivers are looking at the pretty flowers, and the horses humping in the fields instead of the road. As long as a drunk does not decide to take that backroad home, I think the night is much safer.

  131. #131
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    for sure, lights are the NO. 1 'respect-getter' w/ autos
    I guess it make you more like "one of them"
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  132. #132
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    Oh, somethin funny-ish...
    When I 'point' my intention (turn-signal) to motorists, I always point down to where I'm going and w/ two fingers. (TWO as if you're counting on your hand -loose, not stiff)
    AS IN, two wheels!! Down 'right there'!

    ..seriously, I think that...
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Just so I'm clear, you were riding on the sidewalk and against traffic, you saw a car approaching the stop sign, and decided that it was safe to cross in front of him? If that's accurate, and I was driving, I would have yelled back "quick riding on the sidewalk against traffic, idiot!"

    Let me guess, you also yell at drivers who drive over the speed limit.

    When did I say that I saw a car approaching?!?

    I was maybe 15 at the time. It was a blind-ish driveway from a store front onto a busy pedestrian cross street. The guy didn't even attempt to stop and I could see his eyes as we collided. Not much I could do other than come to a complete stop on the sidewalk to check to see if there's any cars not going to stop at the sign.

    If that's what you would have yelled back, I would have kindly flagged down a cop to notify him that you just ran a stop sign and struck a cyclist. Then we'd see how your "He shouldn't be on the sidewalk" arguement holds up.

    I really don't know what your point is either. I'm using an anecdote to show that riding on the sidewalk is not as safe as you would think and you're probabaly better off on the road. With that said, when I was a kid we were told to ride on the sidewalk facing traffic. I certainly would not recommend to my children to ride on busy roads being that they don't have driver's licenses and are not familiar with the rules of the road. I just make them aware to be careful at sidewalk intersections for driver's not paying attention.

  134. #134
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    ^^^That stop sign probably (most aren't in that scenario) wasn't legally binding.
    And if you have to come to a complete stop to see if a car is going to hit you or not - that's what you do...if your gonna be on the damn sidewalk
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  135. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDubT
    When did I say that I saw a car approaching?!?

    I was maybe 15 at the time. It was a blind-ish driveway from a store front onto a busy pedestrian cross street. The guy didn't even attempt to stop and I could see his eyes as we collided. Not much I could do other than come to a complete stop on the sidewalk to check to see if there's any cars not going to stop at the sign.

    If that's what you would have yelled back, I would have kindly flagged down a cop to notify him that you just ran a stop sign and struck a cyclist. Then we'd see how your "He shouldn't be on the sidewalk" arguement holds up.

    I really don't know what your point is either. I'm using an anecdote to show that riding on the sidewalk is not as safe as you would think and you're probabaly better off on the road. With that said, when I was a kid we were told to ride on the sidewalk facing traffic. I certainly would not recommend to my children to ride on busy roads being that they don't have driver's licenses and are not familiar with the rules of the road. I just make them aware to be careful at sidewalk intersections for driver's not paying attention.
    That's why I phrased it as a question, since your original post was not a detailed. Nonetheless, when you're driving how often do you look right when turning left? I'm sure the driver did not intentionally hit you.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    During the day rednecks in PC trucks(Penile Compensators) would go by so close you swear you could feel the mirror brush your shirt sleeve on the way by. (it would take too much effort to move the steering wheel 3 inches to the left, and back again) That, and "what do any dern cyclists need to be on a road fer anyhoo?" "Bet they don"t even pay any road taxes by buying gasoline"
    Like I said in an earlier post, preception and reality are two different things. I'm sure you're preceiving most drivers as intentionally buzzing you, and anti-bike (since they are driving instead of cycling). Reality is, the last think 99.9% of all drivers want to do is hit somebody on a bike and go out of their way to make sure they don't.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  137. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    That's why I phrased it as a question, since your original post was not a detailed. Nonetheless, when you're driving how often do you look right when turning left? I'm sure the driver did not intentionally hit you.
    For the sake of arguement, he was turning right and not looking right. I'm not saying he intentionally hit me, I'm saying it's dangerous riding on the sidewalk. Seems like you're picking out what you want to hear in my posts.

  138. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDubT
    For the sake of arguement, he was turning right and not looking right. I'm not saying he intentionally hit me, I'm saying it's dangerous riding on the sidewalk. Seems like you're picking out what you want to hear in my posts.
    Please go back and reread your earlier post. You said he was turning left, and didn't look right. Subconsciensiously, most drivers don't (I know I don't).

    I'm not trying to pick out what I want to hear. I'm only commenting on what you wrote. If he indeed unintentionally hit you, but could have avoided hitting you by doing something as simple as stopping and looking both ways, then yes, you have every right to be mad. But from your original post, you made it sound like he was the one at fault, and in my opinion--again, based on your original post--you were partally to blame too.

    There, now can we kiss and make up?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  139. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Please go back and reread your earlier post. You said he was turning left, and didn't look right. Subconsciensiously, most drivers don't (I know I don't).

    I'm not trying to pick out what I want to hear. I'm only commenting on what you wrote. If he indeed unintentionally hit you, but could have avoided hitting you by doing something as simple as stopping and looking both ways, then yes, you have every right to be mad. But from your original post, you made it sound like he was the one at fault, and in my opinion--again, based on your original post--you were partally to blame too.

    There, now can we kiss and make up?

    I think you should probably reread my earlier post.
    he was looking left and I was coming from his right
    Never said anything about turning left.

    Your making a lot of assumptions about the situation without at least asking for more facts. I was making a simple, brief statement about a sidewalk incident I had and didn't intend it to be submitted as my deposition for the court of MTBR. If you're unsure of the facts, just ask and I can provide you with whatever info I have at my disposal...don't just assume things in order to make your case stronger (or whatever you're doing). We all know what happens when people assume...

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDubT
    I think you should probably reread my earlier post. Never said anything about turning left.

    Your making a lot of assumptions about the situation without at least asking for more facts. I was making a simple, brief statement about a sidewalk incident I had and didn't intend it to be submitted as my deposition for the court of MTBR. If you're unsure of the facts, just ask and I can provide you with whatever info I have at my disposal...don't just assume things in order to make your case stronger (or whatever you're doing). We all know what happens when people assume...
    EDIT: You win.

    (Did it make you feel good about belittling me in the process?)
    Last edited by Casual Observer; 03-17-2011 at 01:18 PM.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    I Win The Internetz!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    EDIT: You win.

    (Did it make you feel good about belittling me in the process?)

    I wasn't belittling you. My intent was to give an anecdote. You wanted to pick it apart for what ever reason to make me look like the idiot. Sure, i could be considered partially at fault (dependant on how a cop was feeling that day), but that's beside the point. If I were a walking pedestrian, the same thing could have happened and there would be no question who's to blame. My only point is that if you ride on the sidewalk, you're not as safe as you might think.

    Now what kind of prize do I get for my internet victory?

  142. #142
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    The problem with the sidewalk is most drivers take a glance to the right for pedestrians, then look left for cars, and gun it when it is clear. On a bike they may not have seen you on that first glance to the right, but you have closed the distance while they looked left. Pedestrians don't close that distance like that.

    Even when making a left turn where they need to look both directions, their last look is to the left, and the looks they made to the right were down the road, not further off to the right where a bike comes from. They then make that last look left and gun it.

    Going across in front of them is asking for trouble. I have ridden on the left because it was too much of a pain to cross 4 lanes to ride 200 yards and cross back over 4 lanes again, but if a car came up to turn, I would either stop, or go around the back of them, unless they clearly waved me across.

    Some towns have horrible bike lanes and the sidewalks can be safer if they have few entrances. But if riding the sidewalk you have to assume they will not see you or yield when turning. Especially so if riding the left side.

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo
    My point was more to the act of riding against traffic AND on the sidewalk. When a driver reaches a stop sign they will look left first and if turning right may never even look to the right. They will not see or expect a bike to be coming at them from that direction .

    A few years back an English challenged young man plowed into the front fender of my now Ex wifes car. He was riding on the sidewalk...operative word being "walk" blew the light as she was turning right on her green light. Guess who got the ticket? The English challenged young man...Who got stuck paying the deductible and the jacked insurance is a whole other story!

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