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  1. #1
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    New campfire bans in Flag, permanent ones.

    map here: https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...5ebd.image.jpg and, it's WINDY as all getout, and as the Campbell mesa fire showed this week, plenty willing to torch.
    Careful out there with fires, folks - it's still quite cold at night. Cheers!
    - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  2. #2
    PNF Ax Man.
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    Where are you getting this information and map from? As of right now, there are no fire restrictions in Coconino National Forest. CNF current conditions.

    "Fire Restrictions
    There are no fire restrictions on the Coconino at this time. Please be careful with fire.

    The fire Danger is "LOW" - Industrial Plan: A - Preparedness Level II"

    Dash
    Clearer-er of Prescott trails. Downhill downfall in your way? PM me. Have ax, will travel.

  3. #3
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    It's all clear now. Thanks!

    Dash
    Clearer-er of Prescott trails. Downhill downfall in your way? PM me. Have ax, will travel.

  4. #4
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    He's getting it from the Coconino Forest Orders page.....forest orders get updated/issued first, then the general public page....linky here:

    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coconino/nep...rs/index.shtml

    Direct link to the specific order is here:

    http://www.redrockcountry.org/about-...04-11-02-f.pdf




  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    He's getting it from the Coconino Forest Orders page.....forest orders get updated/issued first, then the general public page....linky here:
    I actually got it from the Daily Sun, but thanks for the link - the DS article also stated that the trails withing the burn zone would open Sunday with the exception of Waterline Road as it's non-existant in most places.
    - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  6. #6
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    Good news on the trails....bad news on no camping at schultz and in a lot of places around town, even with no campfires. If you look closely, you'll notice on this most recent order, they pulled out a no camping order which is pretty draconian from 1995.....Forest Order #04-112-R.......that order is found here:

    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coconino/nep...s/04-112-r.pdf




  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    Good news on the trails....bad news on no camping at schultz and in a lot of places around town, even with no campfires. If you look closely, you'll notice on this most recent order, they pulled out a no camping order which is pretty draconian from 1995.....Forest Order #04-112-R.......that order is found here:

    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coconino/nep...s/04-112-r.pdf
    Whereis that denoted as being current? Good news for local lodging..........Seriouly, I hope it warms up - 48*F & windy, windy right now. - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  8. #8
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    Well, I can see why they'd ban fires in that area. The whole area is pretty close to town. I've hiked around there before and am not surprised. There are a lot of areas where you can do some dispersed camping around there where I'd rather go anyways. I don't want to really camp that close to society.

    And I wish I was up in Flag right now. It's been getting hot in Tucson, and it's still barren...

  9. #9
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    That old order has always been in effect since 1995. Camping is still allowed above the first cattle guard on Schultz Pass Road a mile north from the Mt Elden Road intersection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer
    Good news on the trails....bad news on no camping at schultz and in a lot of places around town, even with no campfires. If you look closely, you'll notice on this most recent order, they pulled out a no camping order which is pretty draconian from 1995.....Forest Order #04-112-R.......that order is found here:

    http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coconino/nep...s/04-112-r.pdf

  10. #10
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    Hmmmm was thinking about coming down to Flagstaff to ride from Park City and St George, perhaps Page would be better this trip since its closer. Only ever been there for Powell.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider
    That old order has always been in effect since 1995. Camping is still allowed above the first cattle guard on Schultz Pass Road a mile north from the Mt Elden Road intersection.

    yes, but given the fire are they going to start enforcing it???
    b

  12. #12
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    No, there's still plenty of camping in the area. There's only like a 1.5 to 2 miles of zone restrictions between Flag and Mount Humphreys. So, the whole restricted zone is only 12 to 25 square miles.

    Look at the map key for the size.

  13. #13
    My other ride is your mom
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconinocycles
    Whereis that denoted as being current? Good news for local lodging..........Seriouly, I hope it warms up - 48*F & windy, windy right now. - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.

    Garro....if you look at the legend for the campfire map you originally posted, it's listed within there.




  14. #14
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    brian, we need to get a group up there to sample the gnar. I take it camping past the cattleguard in the dispersed sites is OK without a campfire?

  15. #15
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    Brian, yes they have been efforcing the no camping in no camping areas. There are plenty of no camping signs along Schultz Creek road before the first cattle guard where we usually camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    yes, but given the fire are they going to start enforcing it???

  16. #16
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    You are correct. No wood or charcoal fires, but a propane fire pit is OK. In the past we have used portable propane fire pit up there when there has been fire restictions and the rangers are OK with them. I have the Fire Dancer Gas Campfire that I got at Cabelas a few years ago. Not sure if they still carry them, but they are available on AMAZON

    Quote Originally Posted by tls36
    I take it camping past the cattleguard in the dispersed sites is OK without a campfire?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider
    Brian, yes they have been efforcing the no camping in no camping areas. There are plenty of no camping signs along Schultz Creek road before the first cattle guard where we usually camp.
    I was referring to the areas the we normally camp that according to the map posted above seem to now be "no camping".
    b

  18. #18
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    The area we usually camp out is just outside the no camping zone. The cattle guard and the fence that runs east west from the cattle guard is the northern limit as shown on both maps. We camp just north of that fence.

    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    I was referring to the areas the we normally camp that according to the map posted above seem to now be "no camping".

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tls36
    brian, we need to get a group up there to sample the gnar. I take it camping past the cattleguard in the dispersed sites is OK without a campfire?
    Wasabi and Ginger are clear, just got the word today. Time to shred!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconinocycles
    map here: https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.town...5ebd.image.jpg and, it's WINDY as all getout, and as the Campbell mesa fire showed this week, plenty willing to torch.
    Careful out there with fires, folks - it's still quite cold at night. Cheers!
    - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.

    Actually, I'm amazed they didn't ban fires after the blaze last year.
    No, it's not the same experience, but it's not like you can't camp without a fire.

    Couple questions:

    1 - How bad did Campbell Mesa burn. Area isn't closed, is it? I was hoping to ride out there one day a couple weeks out. Got a nice, fast, 20-mile workout ride thru there I like to do once a year.

    2 - Is the road open and camping available out at Cinder Hills yet? That was all closed after the fire, though not sure it was fire-related. Don't plan to camp out there while I'm up in the area, but you never know.

  21. #21
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    wow that is no fires or stoves past the shultz creek tank and even though there is a circle around the tank there is note in the legend saying this includes the tank.

    There is going to be some crazy crowded camping sites up there beyond that this summer I would suspect.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertDog
    Couple questions:

    1 - How bad did Campbell Mesa burn. Area isn't closed, is it? I was hoping to ride out there one day a couple weeks out. Got a nice, fast, 20-mile workout ride thru there I like to do once a year.
    .
    It was a controlled burn. Nothing got out of hand, only they misjudged the wind direction and the smoke got sent into town.

  23. #23
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    forest wide camp fire bans in addition to the camping ban implemented today: http://azdailysun.com/news/local/art...9d870287f.html - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  24. #24
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    Campers will simply go someplace else. But what about the small business owners rooted in Flagstaff? Giving in to pressure from one group will only hurt the small businesses that depend on those predictable summer tourism dollars. Flagstaff continues to shoot themselves in the foot.
    Clearer-er of Prescott trails. Downhill downfall in your way? PM me. Have ax, will travel.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprock™
    Campers will simply go someplace else. But what about the small business owners rooted in Flagstaff? Giving in to pressure from one group will only hurt the small businesses that depend on those predictable summer tourism dollars. Flagstaff continues to shoot themselves in the foot.
    One group? Like the residents of flagstaff that don't want tourists burning our town down? People camping in the woods might by some gas from local businesses but that's about it. You don't really know what you are talking about guy. I suggest learning a thing about what you are posting about before you make yourself look silly.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by m77ranger
    . I suggest learning a thing about what you are posting about before you make yourself look silly.
    No, more like an idiot.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    Campers will simply go someplace else. But what about the small business owners rooted in Flagstaff? Giving in to pressure from one group will only hurt the small businesses that depend on those predictable summer tourism dollars. Flagstaff continues to shoot themselves in the foot.
    You can still camp - just not burn things - no big deal.
    Reality check - most of the people shopping downtown for bath salts, x-mas decorations, scented candles, crystal wands, glass balls, and t-shirts and then cruising down to the 29 TV sports bars for a triple burger aren't camping out. Just ask some of them. The hotels are PACKED.
    How many people would come to camp out in a blackened lunar landscape? if anything it seems like self preservation to keep the things which draw recreational enthusiasts in good shape, "stewardship" even.

    Come on up, the riding is great right now! - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconinocycles
    You can still camp - just not burn things - no big deal.
    +1.

    Not being able to have a campfire is lightyears better than not being able to go into the forest period.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noelg
    +1.

    Not being able to have a campfire is lightyears better than not being able to go into the forest period.
    Yep. more fire starts = full forest closure = no ****** fun at all for anyone.
    Downtown buisness traffic isn't even affected by forest closures.
    Most people don't care at all. Most Flag residents never ever even set foot in the forest.
    50% or more have never been to the GC. The peaks for them may as well be a cardboard cutout.
    - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    Campers will simply go someplace else. But what about the small business owners rooted in Flagstaff? Giving in to pressure from one group will only hurt the small businesses that depend on those predictable summer tourism dollars. Flagstaff continues to shoot themselves in the foot.
    Your really not going to ride and camp in Flag because you can't have a fire?

    Our tourism dollars will really stop coming if we let all those city folk come in and burn the whole place down. But your right, don't come here Dash Riprock, it's not worth it without having a campfire.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by coconinocycles
    Most Flag residents never ever even set foot in the forest. 50% or more have never been to the GC. The peaks for them may as well be a cardboard cutout.
    - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    If this is true, that is pathetic.
    "Nobody ever told me not to try" - Curious George Soundtrack by Jack Johnson

  32. #32
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    "The national forest had been under pressure from a group organized as Campfires Limited to automatically impose a campfire ban on May 1 until the monsoon arrives."

    "Forest Service officials had countered that outside visitors who wanted campfires deserved consideration, along with local businesses that depend on tourism."

    Maybe instead of calling me names you read the article.

    Look, flame me all you want for pointing out the obvious. With the price of gas and the economy the way it is, some people won't opt for the drive to camp in Flagstaff. All the flaming me in the world won't change that.

    Dash
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  33. #33
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    Read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by m77ranger
    The obvious is that you just don't understand the situation.
    Read ranger boy. Read. It's all there in black and white.

    Dash
    Clearer-er of Prescott trails. Downhill downfall in your way? PM me. Have ax, will travel.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    "The national forest had been under pressure from a group organized as Campfires Limited to automatically impose a campfire ban on May 1 until the monsoon arrives."

    "Forest Service officials had countered that outside visitors who wanted campfires deserved consideration, along with local businesses that depend on tourism."

    Maybe instead of calling me names you read the article.

    Look, flame me all you want for pointing out the obvious. With the price of gas and the economy the way it is, some people won't opt for the drive to camp in Flagstaff. All the flaming me in the world won't change that.

    Dash
    The obvious is that you just don't understand the situation.

  35. #35
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    No you don't get it. The point is, the campers will simply go someplace else or not visit Flagstaff. So who does it really hurt in the end? And I quote:

    "local businesses that depend on tourism." That's all I'm saying. I have no plans to camp in Flagstaff. I live in Prescott.

    Dash
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    "The national forest had been under pressure from a group organized as Campfires Limited to automatically impose a campfire ban on May 1 until the monsoon arrives."

    "Forest Service officials had countered that outside visitors who wanted campfires deserved consideration, along with local businesses that depend on tourism."

    Maybe instead of calling me names you read the article.

    Look, flame me all you want for pointing out the obvious. With the price of gas and the economy the way it is, some people won't opt for the drive to camp in Flagstaff. All the flaming me in the world won't change that.

    Dash
    Here we go again.It sounds like the FS did indeed get input from local vendors, and still decided to issue the ban. Don't you live in Prescott?

    As other locals have noted, the impact on local tourism will be limited and practically undetectable.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Here we go again.It sounds like the FS did indeed get input from local vendors, and still decided to issue the ban. Don't you live in Prescott?

    As other locals have noted, the impact on local tourism will be limited and practically undetectable.
    Undetectable? Read the article. Read it. "along with local businesses that depend on tourism."

    Dash
    Clearer-er of Prescott trails. Downhill downfall in your way? PM me. Have ax, will travel.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprock™
    Read ranger boy. Read. It's all there in black and white.

    Dash
    I read, son it did you? Anyone that has ridden little bear, owns a house in the timberline/ doney park area, or remembers that huge plume of smoke coming off of the Schultz fire last year will assure you that you have no idea what you are talking about. Your argument is that Flag will lose money from tourists. Do you have any idea how much money last years fire cost us? Your comments are confirming your idiot status.
    Last edited by m77ranger; 05-06-2011 at 12:52 PM.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by m77ranger
    I read it son, did you? How literate are you? Anyone that has ridden little bear, owns a house in the timberline/ doney park area, or remembers that huge plume of smoke coming off of the Schultz fire last year will assure you that you have no idea what you are talking about. Your argument is that Flag will lose money from tourists. Do you have any idea how much money last years fire cost us? Your comments are conforming your idiot status.
    My argument? I didn't write that article.
    Again with the name calling? *ignore due to inability to have a normal conversation.*

    Dash
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    Again with the name calling? *ignore due to inability to have a normal conversation.*
    ...Read Ranger Boy...
    Dash
    Are you really this blind? Hey man don't expect to post stupid comments and not get called out on it.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    Undetectable? Read the article. Read it. "along with local businesses that depend on tourism."

    Dash
    One, I said "practically undetectable." I don't think anybody will argue that a campfire ban might deter somebody from visiting. Will it be noticable? According to the locals who commented in this thread, the answer is no. (Don't you live in Prescott?)

    Two, the full quote as you pointed out is "Forest Service officials had countered that outside visitors who wanted campfires deserved consideration, along with local businesses that depend on tourism." And yet, taking in these considerations, they issued the ban. So, obviously the concerns was not significant enough to not issue the ban.

    What's next, are you going to complain when it snows in Flagstaff because it's going to deter tourists who come to AZ in the winter for the wamer weather?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  42. #42
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    Oh ok then "practically" undetectable. Fine. You've convinced me. But I'm not the one you need to reassure. It's the Flagstaff small business owner you need to keep telling this to. . For their sake, I hope you're right. . .
    Clearer-er of Prescott trails. Downhill downfall in your way? PM me. Have ax, will travel.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    It's the Flagstaff small business owner you need to keep telling this to. . For their sake, I hope you're right. . .
    That's the hard part. If the CNF banned fires last year or even closed the forest last year before the Schultz fire we would have saved millions in firefighting cost and flood damage to homes but nobody would have known.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    Oh ok then "practically" undetectable. Fine. You've convinced me. But I'm not the one you need to reassure. It's the Flagstaff small business owner you need to keep telling this to. . For their sake, I hope you're right. . .
    Actually, the Flag biz owner should be more concerned about an NFL lockout.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Actually, the Flag biz owner should be more concerned about an NFL lockout.
    Flagstaff summer recreation brings in multiple groups like campers, hikers, mountain bikers, four-wheeler’s, dirt bikers, rock climbers etc. that pack the campsites for three (Memorial Day, 4th of July, & Labor Day) separate holiday weekends per summer. Doesn’t the Card's camp just bring the football fan for a couple weekends?

    Dash
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    Wow, pretty funny exchange going on.

    A couple of comments.

    1 from what I have seen most of the tourist who pass through Flag are on their way to the South Rim. I am not from Flag actually down here in the Old Pueblo but my wife spent a summer working up there for NAU and I went up almost every weekend that summer. Traffic in town was always a zoo, always is all summer from what I have seen. Camping out on Schultz or Elden a lot that summer never saw that many people at least not compared to the traffic in town.

    2 Most people never get more then .5 miles from the car not at all surprised to hear that most Flag residents have never been out of town.

    3 The only thing that would impact tourism dollars in Flag would be the closing of the Canyon. That's just a guess on my part but an educated one.

    4 Lots of people like to have a fire when camping few are smart enough to bring a shovel and water bucket. Though most areas with open camping have signs requiring them for campfires.

    Personally I can take or leave it when it comes to having a campfire yeah its nice to have one but it's not the end of the world.

    Last summer we were up by Blue Ridge when the big fire broke out up there. We had stopped in at Clint's Well for supplies. I over heard a woman say "it's just common sense not to have a fire when windy" my reply "common sense is in pretty short supply these days". That night in camp it was pretty windy but people around us still whipped out a chain saw and cut up a big log so as to have a raging fire.
    Singin' I love hike a bike!!!

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    Flagstaff summer recreation brings in multiple groups like campers, hikers, mountain bikers, four-wheelerís, dirt bikers, rock climbers etc. that pack the campsites for three (Memorial Day, 4th of July, & Labor Day) separate holiday weekends per summer. Doesnít the Card's camp just bring the football fan for a couple weekends?

    Dash
    My point being, this will have a direct, measurable, and immediate impact on the economy. Last year, it brought in close to $10mil.

    Honestly, there are a large number of reasons folks go to Flag. Don't quote me on this, but I'd venture to say outdoor activities in not the main one. (Escaping from the Valley heat is probably the biggest factor.)
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pootie Tang
    do you just like to hear yourself talk?
    Yes
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Did you read it? Did you read it? I did on the internet so it must be true.

  50. #50
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    in effect: http://azdailysun.com/news/state-and...801b5ad8e.html - stoves, ect. banned as well. Campstoves still OK it seems. - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  51. #51
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    I called the ranger and yes camp stoves are permitted.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    Campers will simply go someplace else. But what about the small business owners rooted in Flagstaff? Giving in to pressure from one group will only hurt the small businesses that depend on those predictable summer tourism dollars. Flagstaff continues to shoot themselves in the foot.
    Your turn: http://azdailysun.com/news/local/art...615c63cda.html - Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    steve garro el jefe/el solo. coconino cycles www.coconinocycles.com www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  53. #53
    The .05 percent
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dash Riprockô
    Undetectable? Read the article. Read it. "along with local businesses that depend on tourism."

    Dash
    The Azdaily sun also published an article several years ago stating that the Arizona snowbowl had no impact on the local economy. Not exactly a very respected or quality read. Flag tourist dollars will be fine, keep the fires out. Do you really need to have a camp fire when it is 70 degrees?
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  54. #54
    The .05 percent
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    My point being, this will have a direct, measurable, and immediate impact on the economy. Last year, it brought in close to $10mil.

    Honestly, there are a large number of reasons folks go to Flag. Don't quote me on this, but I'd venture to say outdoor activities in not the main one. (Escaping from the Valley heat is probably the biggest factor.)



    And Bingo was his name-o. As long as it is 115 degrees in the valley, tourist dollars will always be here. Did I actually find myself agreeing w/ Skinny?
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj
    [/B]

    And Bingo was his name-o. As long as it is 115 degrees in the valley, tourist dollars will always be here. Did I actually find myself agreeing w/ Skinny?
    Don't worry, I'm sure we have more in common than either of us would care to admit. For one, I hate people too .
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  56. #56
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    It really is pathetic that this message can't get across to the masses or some feel that it doesn't apply to them and by god they're entitled to their campfire. Tonight (6pm) while coming down Overlook and the short section of Secret that connects to Schultz Tank I encountered a large group (5 or 6 cars) with a sizeable campfire at one of the dispersed campsites near the trail. Just above the pipeline.

    I know the closure order was lifted for the Kaibab and Coc Nat, Forests but the ban for Dry Lake Hills and the Schultz Pass area is indefinite. I approached them and stated just that but they informed me that the "ranger in the green uniform told us it was ok". Yeah sure, WTF . And at least some of the group were mtn bikers.

    So, I get home and double check the website and yes the area is still closed. But even if I wanted to be a tattle-tale there isn't even a number to call. That is, if John Q Public wanted to call in a violation. It's all a big joke. But not to anyone that lives on that side of Dry Lake Hills.

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