Multi-Use Trail Argument- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Multi-Use Trail Argument

    There was a thread about multi-use trails in Pima county, there are those that are against them. I personally have found a use for them.



    On the hand-cycle loop of Roble Pass trail system. Not a long trail, even for my little guy, but his most technical challenge yet. Not all of us are hardcore free rider types, some of us like this type of challenge, and make it harder on ourselves when we need to. There is a place for every type of trail, I personally won't give up this type of riding for anything else. Thank you to all the different types of trail builders.
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  2. #2
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    Great to see a new rider out learning to ride.

    But on the other hand, this is a dastardly way to try to make those of us asking for more building of technical trails feel guilty. Shame on you.

    Almost as bad as a politician using a baby. But we see through the ploy.

    And I still say that they should build more stuff like the "Rockable" section of Robles. Beginners have tons of riding. If you look at all the miles of newer trails built, there is almost no technical stuff in anything built in recent years. For example, Fantasy Island, Sweetwater, most of the Arizona Trail, and most of Robles.

    And the one section of techy that they built it turns out it was not to please those asking for it, but by accident, because the terrain forced it. Which makes me wonder when we will see more trails like that, if that is the only way they will happen.

    Look at the trails that riders from Phoenix are willing to drive down to ride. Milagrosa, 50 year etc. Not many will drive 2 or more hours to ride Fantasy Island, or Sweetwater. Heck, I live here and won't drive 30 minutes to ride either of those. And yet we want to build more like that. God, I sure hope not!! Fantasy Island and Sweetwater are about as exciting as sitting on a road bike on rollers while watching re-runs of Gilligans Island. Hence the name "Fantasy" Island, because you have to "Fantasize" about threesomes with Ginger and Mary Ann while riding it to keep your mind occupied.

    So here's to getting your kid out riding.

    But don't think I'm going to feel guilty about asking for more challenging trails. I have a heart of stone.

  3. #3
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    Where is Robles? I am new and need some areas to go to!

    Thx

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianb21
    Where is Robles? I am new and need some areas to go to!

    Thx
    It is in Tucson between Ajo and Irvington roads and east of Mission.

    Where are you located?

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    Houghton & Tanque Verde area.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianb21
    Where is Robles? I am new and need some areas to go to!

    Thx
    Brian I will riding out there hopefully on Friday evening if you would like to join? I always start at the Starr Pass parking lot and ride over from there but it can be a little tricky to find the first time.

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    Sweet video Veelz. Almost makes me want a little one, hopefully I'll get my nephew out on the trails soon.

  8. #8
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    Awsome veels.

    Too many people forget what multi-use means and short sightedly think its all about their wants and needs.

    Right now Robles is not even officialy opened, when it does its status as a MTB in the know playground is going to be down graded by more begginer and intermediate type MTB'ers and not mention tons of hikers and some more horsey people.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    Great to see a new rider out learning to ride.

    But on the other hand, this is a dastardly way to try to make those of us asking for more building of technical trails feel guilty. Shame on you.

    Almost as bad as a politician using a baby. But we see through the ploy.

    And I still say that they should build more stuff like the "Rockable" section of Robles. Beginners have tons of riding. If you look at all the miles of newer trails built, there is almost no technical stuff in anything built in recent years. For example, Fantasy Island, Sweetwater, most of the Arizona Trail, and most of Robles.

    And the one section of techy that they built it turns out it was not to please those asking for it, but by accident, because the terrain forced it. Which makes me wonder when we will see more trails like that, if that is the only way they will happen.

    Look at the trails that riders from Phoenix are willing to drive down to ride. Milagrosa, 50 year etc. Not many will drive 2 or more hours to ride Fantasy Island, or Sweetwater. Heck, I live here and won't drive 30 minutes to ride either of those. And yet we want to build more like that. God, I sure hope not!! Fantasy Island and Sweetwater are about as exciting as sitting on a road bike on rollers while watching re-runs of Gilligans Island. Hence the name "Fantasy" Island, because you have to "Fantasize" about threesomes with Ginger and Mary Ann while riding it to keep your mind occupied.

    So here's to getting your kid out riding.

    But don't think I'm going to feel guilty about asking for more challenging trails. I have a heart of stone.


    Get a clue and at least get your facts straight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigworm520
    Brian I will riding out there hopefully on Friday evening if you would like to join? I always start at the Starr Pass parking lot and ride over from there but it can be a little tricky to find the first time.
    I appreciate the offer. I am getting my bike tomorrow but i am going snowboarding one last time on friday for the season! Since i am so new i figure i can ride FI for a little while to get use to my new ride and get some endurance. The wife got me into this but i am really looking forward to it. We demo'd some bikes at FI last sat and we had a blast!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog
    Get a clue and at least get your facts straight.
    What facts would those be?

    If lots of the trails they have built in recent years are "technical" in nature, then please, by all means enlighten me. I really would like to find these trails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    It is in Tucson between Ajo and Irvington roads and east of Mission.

    Where are you located?
    Small correction - Robles is West of Mission Rd.

    Neat vid veelz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog
    Too many people forget what multi-use means and short sightedly think its all about their wants and needs
    Ahhh.....there it is. The old "If you ask for technical trails, you are selfish" argument. Like this card isn't played everytime the discussion comes up.

    Yeah, I'm just nothing but selfish because I ask for technical trails.

    Never mind that I gave 25 tires, 2 suspension forks, and over $1,000 in bike parts to B.I.C.A.S. last year.

    Sorry, but I don't buy that whole "selfish" spiel for wanting a proportionate amount of difficult trails.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    Ahhh.....there it is. The old "If you ask for technical trails, you are selfish" argument. Like this card isn't played everytime the discussion comes up.

    Yeah, I'm just nothing but selfish because I ask for technical trails.

    Never mind that I gave 25 tires, 2 suspension forks, and over $1,000 in bike parts to B.I.C.A.S. last year.

    Sorry, but I don't buy that whole "selfish" spiel for wanting a proportionate amount of difficult trails.
    Yeah, one guy at the IMBA meeting a few months ago said that we need more "family" (aka "easier/same as we have now" trails), but IMBA was quick to correct him, stating that there is a bell curve of trail users obviously, but it's the fringes that attract people and make the riding destination, so you need some real easy trails, and obviously a good deal of intermediate, but you need expert/advanced trails as well, or you aren't going to attract a family. Sure, a trail that an entire family can ride together is good, but it's not going to attract a family to come to that destination. They're going to go to a place that "has it all", so the dad or son can hit up some fun lift served or downhill riding, the family can go out on a ride on the easy trail, mom and dad can go out on the internediate stuff, and so on. You HAVE to have those fringes in terms of trails, and if you already have an excess of one type, it's obvious what you have to do (build more of another type).
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yeah, one guy at the IMBA meeting a few months ago said that we need more "family" (aka "easier/same as we have now" trails), but IMBA was quick to correct him, stating that there is a bell curve of trail users obviously, but it's the fringes that attract people and make the riding destination, so you need some real easy trails, and obviously a good deal of intermediate, but you need expert/advanced trails as well, or you aren't going to attract a family. Sure, a trail that an entire family can ride together is good, but it's not going to attract a family to come to that destination. They're going to go to a place that "has it all", so the dad or son can hit up some fun lift served or downhill riding, the family can go out on a ride on the easy trail, mom and dad can go out on the internediate stuff, and so on. You HAVE to have those fringes in terms of trails, and if you already have an excess of one type, it's obvious what you have to do (build more of another type).
    Therein lies the Catch 22. If you want to promote the sport of mt biking, you have to realize you're going to attract those new to the sport, resulting in the need (or, how about "desire"?) for more beginner-level trails. I'd in no way suggest that trails be designed specifically for one level or rider. But I'm also not going to go our and suggest that everybody go out and buy a mt bike either.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    . . . But I'm also not going to go our and suggest that everybody go out and buy a mt bike either.
    Why not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlemen
    Why not?
    Because then the trails would be like I-10 and that would suck. Could you imagine 300,000 mtbrs let alone everyone trying to use the trail systems we have.

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    True, mountain biking isn't for everyone, however everyone should have a chance to figure that out for themselves.

    More riders = more voices to speak up for mountain biking = more trails/bike parks built (ideally to accommodate all riding styles/abilities) = more fun.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigworm520
    Because then the trails would be like I-10 and that would suck. Could you imagine 300,000 mtbrs let alone everyone trying to use the trail systems we have.
    More like: "because the trails would be like National"...That's 300,000 mtbers trying to use a trail right there, except I've still been there on days where I've only seen one other rider.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlemen
    Why not?
    Because.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  21. #21
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    First, Multi-use = more than just MTB'ers. Its what we have to live with these days, especially when the funds and land are public. The fact that MTB'ers are building it doesn't mean that MTB'ers have a dominant say in what goes into the trail system. I think we were lucky to have MTB'ers as the primary designers and builders of Robles. Can you imagine what it would be like if equestrians or hikers built it?

    As has been already stated: The vast majority of MTB'ers aren't looking for much in the way of "technical", which can be obviously a relative term. So couple that with the design and liabilty requirements for a true public multi-use trail system, shake it up and see what you get.

    Can we create mutli-use trails that meet the needs of all MTB'ers, even that minority that demands "technical" trails? Yes, thats what has been going on at the 50 Year Trail down in Tucson, with the support of a guy that some folks tossed under the bus without having a clue as to said persons efforts and accomplishments. The guy who knows just what Pima County will tolerate because he knows and talks to the people there daily, vs. say a new carpet bagger that thinks they have all the answers and seemingly doesn't get it that he is preaching to the chior, no matter how many times it gets said.

    TWD2002,

    You say there is dearth of tech trails in Tucson, I call BS. TMP alone has a bunch of trails that you stated that you like, Hidden Canyon amongst them, oh snap, is that a new Pima County trail? The system near Dove Mountain has a bunch of what your looking for, thats all new, tight and technical hiker trail type stuff. There is a bunch of new hiker wild cat stuff south of the Catalina SP that you might like based on your stated definition of technical. They are rock choked and difficult to ride and lack flow but are a fun challenge for some. Whats funny is that should cyclist start riding there in mass, it will get sanitized by MTB'ers in the name of flow and relative ridability.

    I can say that I have a good idea of what battles are being waged with regard to progressive trails and bike park venues in the OP. The battles you don't see, they are being fought by people who volunteer their personal time and efforts to try and meet the needs of the cycling community at large. Thats how we know whats really going on, were on the front lines talking to cyclist such as yourself, going to meetings with the likes of the BAC, Pima County, SDMB, IMBA, and working with the local USFS. You have been asked aboard by several people, myself included.

    I used to say some of the things you say, but I chose to get involved and learn both sides of the story. You can risk wild catting what you want but you run the risk of causing harm to your fellow cyclists cause. We are definately feeling the sting on that front.

    If you think many others on the BAC and in SDMB or SAMBA are not for and actively pushing for technical trails you are mistaken. You say you did this stuff in Oregon, well then it I would think that it would be easier for you to understand the politics of the whole thing.

    Personally I feel that Tucson has enough of the "technical" trails that you desire, and that the focus needs to be on what the comming generations of cyclist would call technical. Bike park stuff like the NRA and Rockys, and some real DH trails of off Mt. Lemmon. There will always be primitive or weathered trails that offer the type of challenge that you seek.

    BTW: F.I. hails from the early 90s. It was a national success story at the time, but technology and skills progression have it left behind.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlemen
    True, mountain biking isn't for everyone, however everyone should have a chance to figure that out for themselves.

    More riders = more voices to speak up for mountain biking = more trails/bike parks built (ideally to accommodate all riding styles/abilities) = more fun.
    Do we need *more* voices, or should we take advantage of the voices we currently have? The problem with more alleged biking advocates is you're going to get a variety of wants, needs, demands, etc. We have a hard time now referring to just "mountain biking." Now, it's "are you a freerider?" "A downhiller?" Why can't we just be a cyclist?

    As I think was pointed out a couple places, multi-use is just that. The trails are designed for all: hikers, bikers, equestrians. You start getting new cyclists wanting to build more trails, and they start assuming those trails are ours. We're going to lose that battle, unfortunately.

    I'm not saying I don't think mt biking is for everbody. I just don't want it getting over saturated.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Do we need *more* voices, or should we take advantage of the voices we currently have? The problem with more alleged biking advocates is you're going to get a variety of wants, needs, demands, etc. We have a hard time now referring to just "mountain biking." Now, it's "are you a freerider?" "A downhiller?" Why can't we just be a cyclist?
    Yes to more voices and yes take advantage of the voices we currently have. When bike advocates need people to email, call, speak up, please take a second to do that when the time comes (=more voices=decision makers know what the constituents want). Current voices are working with the FS and other land managers, and are active in the forums and are paying attention to the under-represented. Speak up! In turn we will speak up to let y'all know what the issues are.

    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    As I think was pointed out a couple places, multi-use is just that. The trails are designed for all: hikers, bikers, equestrians. You start getting new cyclists wanting to build more trails, and they start assuming those trails are ours. We're going to lose that battle, unfortunately.
    It's a constant education of the newbies from the experienced riders. Not everyone knows that even though public land is "ours", it's not ours to do what we want and build rogue trails on. This is a group effort to keep trails open and keep riders on the trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    I'm not saying I don't think mt biking is for everbody. I just don't want it getting over saturated.
    What number equals "over saturated"?
    I think it would be awesome to have many many more riders on the trails.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlemen
    What number equals "over saturated"?
    I think it would be awesome to have many many more riders on the trails.
    Are you sure about that?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Are you sure about that?
    Yep.

    MTB-ers cannot exclude others from the trails.

    Someone mentioned earlier a desire to be known as riders versus "DH-ers" or "XC-ers" or "any other sub-group-er". We are trail users, and this includes horses and hikers as well. But you know this already.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlemen
    Yep.

    MTB-ers cannot exclude others from the trails.

    Someone mentioned earlier a desire to be known as riders versus "DH-ers" or "XC-ers" or "any other sub-group-er". We are trail users, and this includes horses and hikers as well. But you know this already.
    Who said anything about excluding anybody from the trails?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Who said anything about excluding anybody from the trails?
    It's my interpretation of the conversation string of "I just don't want it to get over saturated"/"it would be awesome to have more riders"/"are you sure about that"/"yep".

    At the point someone decides trails are "over saturated" (whatever that number is), is the point when someone is excluded from the trail.

    If I read too much into that string, my bad.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlemen
    It's my interpretation of the conversation string of "I just don't want it to get over saturated"/"it would be awesome to have more riders"/"are you sure about that"/"yep".

    At the point someone decides trails are "over saturated" (whatever that number is), is the point when someone is excluded from the trail.

    If I read too much into that string, my bad.
    I'm not sure you're thinking this through when you say you're in favor of more mt bikers on the trail.

    And go back and re-read this: "At the point someone decides trails are "over saturated" (whatever that number is), is the point when someone is excluded from the trail."

    You said a mouthful, whether you realize it or not.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  29. #29
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    In short what Louis said, (Sundog smarter than I originally thought). Draw a sword
    and a line in the dirt. Either step up and start helping out or STFup and stop whining,
    because you are becoming a hurdle for the guys charging the enemy.
    "I tried to live always free and above board like you" Cool Hand Luke

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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    I'm not sure you're thinking this through when you say you're in favor of more mt bikers on the trail.
    What am I missing?

    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    And go back and re-read this: "At the point someone decides trails are "over saturated" (whatever that number is), is the point when someone is excluded from the trail."
    One person's "over saturated" is another's "barely used" and vice versa. Unless there are cold hard facts to support a trail being over saturated (crazy damage, a wait list, clogged parking lot, whatever; situations that don't currently exist in Tucson which is where I'm active. Phoenicians, what's the word?), I will argue the trail can support more users, and since I am fond of mountain biking, the trail can support more bikes.

    When there's talk about fear of trails being "over saturated" without putting a number to what that means, is when exclusion starts. A team of folks are working to keep the perspective accurate to that "someone" who is in a position to decide what over saturation is.

  31. #31
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    [QUOTE=SunDog]
    First, Multi-use = more than just MTB'ers. Its what we have to live with these days, especially when the funds and land are public. The fact that MTB'ers are building it doesn't mean that MTB'ers have a dominant say in what goes into the trail system. I think we were lucky to have MTB'ers as the primary designers and builders of Robles. Can you imagine what it would be like if equestrians or hikers built it?
    I understand that there are lots of limitations. I wish we had a way to get past some of those limitations. I don't expect the county to "pay" to build difficult trails, but it sure would be nice if the MTB community would be allowed to build trails in an area "for MTB'ers" and "by MTB'ers. I would go out and build trails with help from others and NO public funding if it were legal in an area to do so.
    And yes it is good that it was not the hikey/horsey people that built Robles. For sure it could be worse.

    As has been already stated: The vast majority of MTB'ers aren't looking for much in the way of "technical",
    I think a large part of the MTB community would disagree with that statement. Especially the ones who ride the most, and spend the most money on equipment.
    vs. say a new carpet bagger that thinks they have all the answers and seemingly doesn't get it that he is preaching to the chior, no matter how many times it gets said.
    So I guess you have to be born here to count? Any other Tucson mountain bikers on here that were not born here?


    Y
    ou say there is dearth of tech trails in Tucson, I call BS. TMP alone has a bunch of trails that you stated that you like, Hidden Canyon amongst them, oh snap, is that a new Pima County trail? The system near Dove Mountain has a bunch of what your looking for, thats all new, tight and technical hiker trail type stuff.
    Most of what TMP has is technical because it was not built to the same kind of specs as Robles or Sweetwater. It was old hiking and "wildcat" trails. Dove Mountain has some great trails. As Aztripper has stated before, Rockable was not built to meet the demands of riders wanting harder trails, it just happened because of terrain, as I'm sure happened at Hidden Canyon. Would be nice if routes were being scoped out because they would make for a fun, rough trail, rather than it only happening when terrain dictates on rare occasions.

    There is a bunch of new hiker wild cat stuff south of the Catalina SP that you might like based on your stated definition of technical.
    So my best option for hard trails is to ride wildcat trails. But down below you say we should not do that.



    You can risk wild catting what you want but you run the risk of causing harm to your fellow cyclists cause. We are definately feeling the sting on that front.
    Didn't you just refer me to some wildcat trails?



    Personally I feel that Tucson has enough of the "technical" trails that you desire, and that the focus needs to be on what the comming generations of cyclist would call technical.
    Glad there is always someone to tell us what we need. Speaking of the "coming generations" of cyclists, they are way more hardcore than us old farts. Heck, I'm 48 and my girlfriend is 51. We are by no means super hardcore. Yet we both think Sweetwater and most of Robles are too tame.When a 51year old woman thinks this, it ought to tell you something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yeah, one guy at the IMBA meeting a few months ago said that we need more "family" (aka "easier/same as we have now" trails), but IMBA was quick to correct him, stating that there is a bell curve of trail users obviously, but it's the fringes that attract people and make the riding destination, so you need some real easy trails, and obviously a good deal of intermediate, but you need expert/advanced trails as well, or you aren't going to attract a family. Sure, a trail that an entire family can ride together is good, but it's not going to attract a family to come to that destination. They're going to go to a place that "has it all", so the dad or son can hit up some fun lift served or downhill riding, the family can go out on a ride on the easy trail, mom and dad can go out on the internediate stuff, and so on. You HAVE to have those fringes in terms of trails, and if you already have an excess of one type, it's obvious what you have to do (build more of another type).

    That logic is fallacy... the married man that is a father of children has far more important priorities and can risk far less in terms of rides, injuries, and loss of income, especially if he is the sole breadwinner for the family. Car insurance actuaries and insurance rates reflect this, married men with children are far less likely to engage is accident prone driving behavior than a single man or married man without children, their insurance rates while driving reflect this level of responsibility. The same goes with extreme riding behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    That logic is fallacy... the married man that is a father of children has far more important priorities and can risk far less in terms of rides, injuries, and loss of income, especially if he is the sole breadwinner for the family. Car insurance actuaries and insurance rates reflect this, married men with children are far less likely to engage is accident prone driving behavior than a single man or married man without children, their insurance rates while driving reflect this level of responsibility. The same goes with extreme riding behavior.

    On the other hand, dudes with wives prone to complaining and controlling are far more likely to just say the heck with it and hit that big drop they'd never hit if they had something to look forward to besides more nagging. Also, your point also applies to the married woman. I agree with you bout the kids being a reason to err on the side of caution, gotta be able to take care of them. That's something the folks without kids will never fully understand until they have kids. There is no device big enough to measure the love for your children.
    "I tried to live always free and above board like you" Cool Hand Luke

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog

    BTW: F.I. hails from the early 90s. It was a national success story at the time, but technology and skills progression have it left behind.
    And another fact that he's missing F.I. was not a county built project it's not even on county land. Poor Chuck just couldn't understand why the IMBA trail crews didn't like his trails, if mtbers liked his trail how could they be built wrong. The Monk was pushing for contour lines he had seen enough guttering in CA to know better with out even knowing why. Well we have witnessed the results. Depending on rains and how long since the last rock throwing session and FI can get rocky. And then people start avoiding it.

    I also have a problem with and expert rider deciding what is considered easy. I don't care how old you might be, there are some people who are better at some things then others. Star Pass has never been considered a great place for beginners lots of people avoid it because of all of the rocks. This might be hard for you to comprehend at your skill level but I have no trouble admitting that I struggle on things. I don't even bother to try to ride Hidden Canyon, nor do most of the people I ride with along with most of the riders I have ever talked to out on the trails. There are beginning to be more riders who are capable of riding it I should think that a lot of them were not born here but that's fine with me I wasn't either.

    Wow, when I left for a 4 day river trip, I had thought things were cooling down on this issue thanks veelz for stirring the pot while I was gone.

    I had a great 4 days on the Gila river floating through Americas first Wilderness area (no bikes allowed), its great to live in the South West and have access to so many mountain playgrounds.
    Singin' I love hike a bike!!!

  35. #35
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    I was born here, not sure what that has to do with anything. Does it mean that I can build wildcat trails?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigworm520
    I was born here, not sure what that has to do with anything. Does it mean that I can build wildcat trails?
    Yes, but you must rock the appropriate costume when doing so.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlemen
    What am I missing?



    One person's "over saturated" is another's "barely used" and vice versa. Unless there are cold hard facts to support a trail being over saturated (crazy damage, a wait list, clogged parking lot, whatever; situations that don't currently exist in Tucson which is where I'm active. Phoenicians, what's the word?), I will argue the trail can support more users, and since I am fond of mountain biking, the trail can support more bikes.

    When there's talk about fear of trails being "over saturated" without putting a number to what that means, is when exclusion starts. A team of folks are working to keep the perspective accurate to that "someone" who is in a position to decide what over saturation is.
    Then we agree to disagree.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    [ So I guess you have to be born here to count? Any other Tucson mountain bikers on here that were not born here?

    More assumptions on your part.

    As usual you missed the point; which was that an opinionated vocal new comer ought to get to know the local scene before they go spouting off how things should be done, especially when people in the know are trying to help clarify what the local political and MTB scene is. That is all, nobody said that you don't count or that you have to be born here to know whats going on.

    As to your lame attempt to vilify me on wild cat trails: There is a huge difference between constructing wild cat trails vs. finding and riding a well established wild cat trail, a.k.a. social trails. You ought to know that, and you can definitately quote me on that. If you choose to go cut wild cat trails to meet your needs then its all on you.

    The point that you missed was that there is already a plentiful local network of the type of trails that you like, some new, and some by Pima County. Just what do you really have to rant about?

  39. #39
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    [QUOTE=AZTtripper]
    Depending on rains and how long since the last rock throwing session and FI can get rocky. And then people start avoiding it.
    That is the complete opposite reason we avoid it. I can't even get my girlfriend to consider going over and riding there, because she says there is no challenge to it at all.
    This might be hard for you to comprehend at your skill level but I have no trouble admitting that I struggle on things.
    I struggle on things too sometimes, but that is the point. If there is no challenge riding becomes boring IMO.
    I don't even bother to try to ride Hidden Canyon, nor do most of the people I ride with along with most of the riders I have ever talked to out on the trails.
    Hmmmm....I consider that and Hooligan, and Cool Cat to be hidden gems. Sometimes I dab, but riding a trail that never makes me dab would be dull

  40. #40
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    I am just wondering (or stirring the pot-you decide)- why does the land and terrain in public parks have to change just because we (some of us) ride 6 inch travel bikes on XC trails? In moto- the bikes have matured and the tracks have changed- but those are on private land. The off road riding areas have not changed much at all, as far as technicality.

    I really think the parks budget constraints are going to preclude them from spending a bunch of time and money to build drops and ladders for the cool crowd. How about some folks who want to ride booters, vertical rock gardens and that- get together and open up a place where you can play rather than ***** and moan how Pemberton is not a challenge on your AM bike (kinda like Ray's in Cleveland-*****EN BTW).

    SR51 is not conducive terrain for a rock crawler either, maybe ADOT can put in some fake boulders and water crossings so I can enjoy a drive to work for once? If you buy something that you cannot use the way it was intended, whose fault is that?

    Now this is my opinion only. I would like to buy a DH or AM bike, but I know that the terrain for that is far and between. That makes the inconvienence factor high enough that I will stick to breaking XC bikes nearby.
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  41. #41
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    Tim, Tim, Tim. Don't worry, the debate is almost over, we will al finally all agree on this topic soon much like we worked out the Stans vs. Tubes debate and the Abortion debate. Just a wee bit more arguing and there will be rainbows and a sense of conclusion to the issue at hand. I gotta admit it's fun reading these threads, the word that best comes to mind is Redundant.
    "I tried to live always free and above board like you" Cool Hand Luke

  42. #42
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    All I wanted to do was show off my kid, and I stirred up a Sh!tstorm. Sorry guys. I'll see you guys on the sides of the trail when the little man starts to blow us all away with the new style in 2022. Great points made here, but I'm done with the posting on these topics, next time I will just ask everyone to check out my kid in the subject line.


    Quote Originally Posted by sunsetrider
    Tim, Tim, Tim. Don't worry, the debate is almost over, we will al finally all agree on this topic soon much like we worked out the Stans vs. Tubes debate and the Abortion debate. Just a wee bit more arguing and there will be rainbows and a sense of conclusion to the issue at hand. I gotta admit it's fun reading these threads, the word that best comes to mind is Redundant.
    veelz

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    The only one consistently and constantly applied, no exceptions.

  43. #43
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    If lots of the trails they have built in recent years are "technical" in nature, then please, by all means enlighten me. I really would like to find these trails.[/QUOTE]

    Milagrosa, Green Mountain, Aspen Draw, Brown Mountain, Scorpion, Stone House and east of the 50 Year Trail.
    There are many in the west, some I love include: Gooseberry Mesa, Zen Trail, Sand Canyon, Noble Canyon, Downieville and the Virgin River Rim Trail. Want to ride Hangover.
    Last edited by abegold; 04-01-2010 at 11:57 AM.
    agmtb

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by veelz
    All I wanted to do was show off my kid, and I stirred up a Sh!tstorm. Sorry guys. I'll see you guys on the sides of the trail when the little man starts to blow us all away with the new style in 2022. Great points made here, but I'm done with the posting on these topics, next time I will just ask everyone to check out my kid in the subject line.
    I'll take the blame for stirring the pot a little.

    Just realize that my first reply was partly serious, and partly joking around.

    I will be checking out the new wildcat trails south of Catalina though. Should I take my pick and shovel?

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Then we agree to disagree.
    Fair enough. I can live with that.

  46. #46
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    Veelz- I sincerely apologize for jacking your thread! I hope my toddler (only 13 months right now) wants to ride with me when he is able. And the vid rocked! My 16 year old is into baseball and girls right now- and he lives in St. Louis. Not into bikes- but I am okay with that!
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstem
    Veelz- I sincerely apologize for jacking your thread! I hope my toddler (only 13 months right now) wants to ride with me when he is able. And the vid rocked! My 16 year old is into baseball and girls right now- and he lives in St. Louis. Not into bikes- but I am okay with that!
    How many 16 year old's want to hang out with their dads all of the time. Anything you try to push him to do he won't like. That's coming from someone who never grew up by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by sunsetrider
    Tim, Tim, Tim. Don't worry, the debate is almost over...
    It's all good don't worry Jobes I don't take any of this too seriously I understand that it is all just interdroolble.

    I had a great ride at Robles this morning I had a blast on the Mosque Loop I walked a couple of spots but I am very happy with all of it. The whole place is in bloom right now really nice riding out there. It was a great way to cap an awesome week that started with running an open canoe on class III whitewater in the remote Gila Wilderness.
    Singin' I love hike a bike!!!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog

    The point that you missed was that there is already a plentiful local network of the type of trails that you like, some new, and some by Pima County. Just what do you really have to rant about?
    Ok, look, I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls too much here, or come off as an unappreciative jackhole. Sorry if it comes off that way.

    I am thankful that at least more trails are being built, and that bikes are welcome and allowed. I do have a LOT more miles of trails able to be ridden from my house than any place I lived before, and I am thankful for that, and for the effort going into them.

    I don't expect every trail to be built like Rockable, and realize that is unrealistic. But a few here and there, connecting to a main system like Robles would be really a nice addition, giving some the option to take alternate and more difficult routes.

    I realized you have to make most of the trails pretty flowing and relatively easy, but can't a tough obstacle be left in place here and there? Some of the most fun trails are not necessarily a "total tech fest" from start to finish, but just happen to have a nasty hill or obstacle here and there. They can be easy for most of the trail, and have a little surprise obstacle after you round a corner that makes most riders struggle, and then back to flow for a good ways. That way the beginner riders don't have to constantly walk, but do have a challenge to work at conquering, and the experienced riders get a little fun spot here and there. Most of Robles and Sweetwater it seems they made every effort to not have any tough spots at all with the exception of Rockable. Not saying the trails have to be like Rockable, but can't they mix it up just a little?

  49. #49
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    Trips me out that you guys will go on and on and on about almost any topic! Nice video of your little mountain biker, btw.
    Getting out there one day at a time.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveOfPrescott
    Trips me out that you guys will go on and on and on about almost any topic!
    Gee, could this be the reason:

    Wickipedia: Definition of "Internet Forum":

    ".An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site."

  51. #51
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    HEHE. I love these arguments. If we didn't debate something, we'd bored to tears and start making wife jokes and jabs. isallgud.
    "I tried to live always free and above board like you" Cool Hand Luke

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