Mountain bike on the road etiquette- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Mountain bike on the road etiquette

    Some people might not ride on the road much but
    1. There is a bike lane that bikes have to use and
    2. You ride WITH the traffic not against it.
    If you decided not to follow either of these rules you do not have the right of way (or any right) on the side walk that you are riding against traffic on so get out of the way for others especially if the sidewalk is kinda narrow and a 4 year old is coming on a bike. Definitely don't try keep riding on the sidewalk and go between the kid and their parent who is riding next to them but in the bike lane.
    Sorry for the rant but maybe the idiot is on here and maybe he needs to know an explanation of why I told him to get the fuc on the other side of the road.

    *side note* My kid understands the right of way on the side walk when we see people and is generally only on it if it is a busy road shes 4..

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    oh there are a lot of other ways that could have got the point across better.
    I actually like to just ignore stupid people but when you're being an idiot and might make my kid uncomfortable or maybe fall I get pissed so I said what came to mind without it being too bad. I am not trying to have a confrontation when in the end my daughter was fine. Now in the scenario that she fell because of him I really don't know what id have done .

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    I had a kid riding on the sidewalk cut in front of me while I was driving and making a right hand turn on to 66 off Humphrey's Street a few years back. He didn't stop for traffic or even look, he just rode right in front of me. I was looking to my left to make the turn, I think the light was red but he came out of no where and really fast and I wasn't looking for a cyclist on the sidewalk. I was going really slow, he stopped and punched the glass window over my then 3 year old daughter. I drove off but quickly absorbed the situation, I drove around the block to find the kid but luckily I didn't.

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    My wife many years back tapped a bike coming out of a store due to the kid going the wrong way on the sidewalk. The cop came and told the young boy that he was not going to site the kid but he was at fault. I'm not sure if it is just our society that no one cares any more or we are just not teaching it the same as we use to. Growing up all of kids in my town and neighboring town new the rules of the road. Did learn something the other day for this area that if the road has a bike lane and you are on the sidewalk it is not legal for you to be riding on the sidewalk. Now how much will that be enforced? Not likely unless it comes down to who's fault caused an incident. Okay there's my two cents.

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    Mountain bike on the road....lost me there....tl;dr
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    It's legal to ride your bike on the side walk in Phoenix.

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    Some people know the rules, many don't. Worst etiquette offenders I see are people riding their bikes to work, it's like they never took the time to learn the rules though I guess you would have to actually look for them as there isn't many places that teach it as common knowledge. Only thing I remember being taught when I was young was run/walk against traffic, ride with it, but no explanation why or beyond that.

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    Back in college I was riding to class and was on the sidewalk but on the oncoming traffic side of the street (not a good idea). As I approached the intersection I had a green light so I pushed forward. There was a hedge on the corner and just as I got there a car pulled right in front of me turning right on red. Never saw me. I T-boned his front quarter panel, flipped up, landed on his windshield shattering it with my left elbow and hip, bounced off and landed in the oncoming lane on my back.

    I got a ticket for riding my bike on the sidewalk. It was 3X more than the ticket I got for underage drinking a few weeks prior.
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  10. #10
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    Up here in northeast Mesa I regularly ride my bike on road for the 2 miles from my house to the trails. Every time I turn onto Ellsworth I cant help but think of the group of road riders that got run over by some lady texting just a mile away on McDowell and Ellsworth/Usery Pass Rd. I know at least 1 died. I regularly ride on the oncoming side of the road so I can see the enemy long before they see me. If someone is going to prioritize their phone over my life I at least want a fighting chance to get out of the way. Now being a mountain biker if I encounter a road rider coming toward me I move over onto the gravel shoulder and get out of their way. I often wonder what they are thinking when they see me but then I think, who cares?
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    The few experiences I've had as a motorist that really ramped me up were involving joggers and once, a cyclist.

    Driving from home work in the dark around 630a in the fall, I was startled to see a shadowy figure pop out of dark with just a faint outline of visibility. He could not have been more than 2 feet off my right front fender running in the bike lane against my traffic flow. Dark navy running suit of some sort, not an ounce of reflector tape or anything on his shoes etc... probably mid to late 60's. I vowed if I ever noted him again, I was going to be as polite as possible (because my startled response at that first moment was less than forgiving) and let him know he needs some Hi Viz tape or a better outfit. I was not going to get into the right and wrong way or place to run but figured a bicyclist may be likely to 'encounter' him in short order on a dark morning. It amazes me that any grown-up leaves the house in an invisible uniform to mingle in traffic.

    In my neighborhood near a park, I came to a slightly rounded tee intersection, me having the Stop sign. The cross street was littered with cars on a weekend as it usually is so sight-line for pulling out is vary limited although the speed limit is a residential neighborhood so it's 20 mph. I look right, left and then pull out to make my left. Just then, I hear a clunk on the rear of my car and some 50+ y/o guy jogs by me having come form my right and apparently running against traffic along the line of parked cars where nobody in my place could have seen him coming. My guess is he was thinking " the stop sign is for the cars at the corner and I"m going with the flow" (if there were any traffic). Nothing in his pea-brain let him realize "If I can't see a car coming out there, they can't see me". It startled me and again, I let it sink in before realizing I could well have had a quick conversation with him b/c his elitist attitude doesn't fit the idiocy of his actions and methods, at least IMO. The thing that really got to me is he was bold enough to slap the fender on my car. I'm glad I didn't put it all together and stop in that instant because he didn't have any fenders to slap -- I might have improvised.

    Cyclist- This guy was riding in the dark going with traffic in the bike lane with lights around 0645 No problems here accept as I gain on him he is riding ON THE WHITE LINE. The bike lane was approx 2 ft away from the curb on that side and whatever the standard is out toward the road.

    Why in the heck does a rider not use the lane but instead used the white line that puts his handle bar on my f'n fender ?
    I didn't stop to talk to him either because these things don't sink in immediately. I dislike how these few ruin the attitude of fellow motorists and many think ALL bikers or ALL joggers are d-weeds with more sense of entitlement than sense of survival IQ.

    Okay, I'm done.
    Last edited by bachman1961; 07-31-2014 at 09:06 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1 View Post
    Back in college I was riding to class
    why just ride TO class,,, a trek 8700 was perfectly suited for going down the stairs inside the moraine valley CC arts center


  13. #13
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    I ride my goofer bike which is no more than an outdated hardtail with 2" tires on the streets almost every day. It's great exercise and tons of fun, and incidents like that happen every other ride. There will always be an idiot, either a newbie who got scared off the pavement or an idiot who acts like they own the public byway. Fortunately they're few, most people you encounter are considerate and will avoid interfering with your activity.

    If you ride enough, you'll encounter all kinds of weird situations. Kids are very unpredictable and after a few encounters you figure out you just have to slow pass them very slowly. One time I saw a 7-8 year old boy walking down the bike path and though I'd just pass on his left. When he saw me, he decided to lie down right in my way blocking most of the path. I stopped just a foot away and he said: "Awh, I thought you were going to jump over me!" He must have watched too many stupid YouTube videos.

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    If you get passed by a mountain bike rider on his/her bike and you're on a road bike...you loose your lycra privileges for 3-months or until you can sustain a speed >15mph




  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    If you get passed by a mountain bike rider on his/her bike and you're on a road bike...you loose your lycra privileges for 3-months or until you can sustain a speed >15mph
    What's the penalty for a road biker getting passed by a fully loaded bikepacking rig on the Usury rd. climb? (True story, I said 'hello' as I rode by)
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    I am never really surprised to hear when roadies get hit because they love to own the road and ride multiple side by side and not single file. These things happen quick you more than likely will not see it coming. The people texting are not driving in the bike lane they just swerve in real quick. Riding against traffic is arguably more dangerous.
    I have watched a girl riding on the sidewalk the wrong way in Tempe get creamed by a car that looked right left then went and boom.
    Riding on the sidewalk and riding against traffic is not legal in Tempe. They police will not bother little kids on sidewalks or if there is no bike lane on a busy road but you will be sited if a cop bored enough sees you. There are signs on the sidewalks that have a picture of a bike and say wrong way when going against traffic.
    Most people are really good when they see my 4 year old and smile and say something cool to her or put a thumb up. We ride every day all over Tempe she will even do 9 mile rides with me. This was the only time that I was pissed off by a bike rider. Today we did a 4 mile round trip and on our way home an old guy going the wrong way on the sidewalk went into the gravel on the side and stopped as she passed.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashlongjohns View Post
    I'm not sure if it is just our society that no one cares any more or we are just not teaching it the same as we use to. Growing up all of kids in my town and neighboring town new the rules of the road.
    It's parents. They don't want to be parents. Don't want to teach their kids how to behave, what the rules of the {whatever} are. We are raising a society of kids that think they own the world, they can do anything they want, they don't have to answer to anyone. And they typically don't...

  18. #18
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    Re: Mountain bike on the road etiquette

    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post

    Cyclist- This guy was riding in the dark going with traffic in the bike lane with lights around 0645 No problems here accept as I gain on him he is riding ON THE WHITE LINE. The bike lane was approx 2 ft away from the curb on that side and whatever the standard is out toward the road.

    Why in the heck does a rider not use the lane but instead used the white line that puts his handle bar on my f'n fender ?.
    Right or wrong the theory here is that by riding the white line and purposely imposing just a bit on the driving lane the rider makes himself far more visible. It's forces drivers to take notice and hopefully give a safe passing distance. Some cyclists feel that if they ride on the right side of the bike lane they're basically invisible.

    I guess the point is to make your presence known. I can see how it does piss off some drivers though. It doesn't bother me, since I understand where they're coming from. I actually appreciate it and will gladly move over.
    If I am riding my bike up Power road from the River area I do the same thing ( or I ride 5 feet to the right of the bike lane way out in the dirt since I am on my mountain bike). If I'm riding my bike down Chandler Boulevard during rush hour then I might not do the same thing. I wouldn't want to force a driver into another lane.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freeskier46 View Post
    What's the penalty for a road biker getting passed by a fully loaded bikepacking rig on the Usury rd. climb? (True story, I said 'hello' as I rode by)
    2x points for ringing your bell prior to breaking into the peleton. True story. Ask them how they're doing and if they need anything too. You can never be too polite in such a situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    It's parents. They don't want to be parents. Don't want to teach their kids how to behave, what the rules of the {whatever} are. We are raising a society of kids that think they own the world, they can do anything they want, they don't have to answer to anyone. And they typically don't...
    I say it all of the time that the parenting of my generation is sub par at best and I want nothing to do with that statistic. People just can't grow up and need to continue parting listening to ridiculous music and watching stupid things on tv around their kids. The entertainment industry has played a huge part in why so many people have behavior that is not socially acceptable.

  21. #21
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    I won't go into the right or wrong arena b/c I just don't know or have the experience but I can offer my thoughts as someone who does respect life and give cyclists a fair amount of slack.

    It seems to me that "own your lane " is being smart and assertive in most cases but this isn't that.
    It telegraphs to me; Skip the option of using the bike lane and force motorists to be extra attentive and take up half of the car lane next to them to give the clearance that would have been provided/accounted for in the bike lane.

    Motorists don't always have that other lane free or available to accommodate and it's more likely my checking that blind spot in the last few seconds could easily throw my path of travel just that slight bit (remember, that bike or rider has half of his/her mass in my lane).
    The other likely event is I have a car overtaking me in that other lane (blind spot) and there is no where to go and precious little time to save this riders life.
    A life left to the whims of drivers that might be half awake at 7 am.

    I know people want to fight for their rights and privileges but responsibility and obligation to get home safely should trump riding the white line.

    That said, I still feel a big sense of pride for the bikers that will wave at me when I'm just doing the right thing and the legal thing by waiting on them to cross at an intersection.

    Truly, one of these riders going that extra effort to pass on thanks more than pays it forward for the half dozen knuckle heads who lack the sense to save their own hide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeskier46 View Post
    What's the penalty for a road biker getting passed by a fully loaded bikepacking rig on the Usury rd. climb? (True story, I said 'hello' as I rode by)
    I've passed roadies on Usury Rd on multiple occations. I have to say its very satisfying and I have to chuckle to myself. I wonder what they are thinking when they hear the sound of 2.4 tires at 24 psi rolling up behind them and then a 32lbs FS rig with 165m travel, disc brakes, with a rider wearing a fully loaded camelbak and wearing (gasp) baggies, shoot right past them. LOL. Its even better when its a group of them.

    It usually happens on the climbs though. I cant keep up with them with my gearing on the descents.
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    Wow....all the reasons I only ride on dirt and don't shave my legs in one thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    If you get passed by a mountain bike rider on his/her bike and you're on a road bike...you loose your lycra privileges for 3-months or until you can sustain a speed >15mph
    Funny this is mentioned... There was a road bike race up snowbowl road this past June... For some crazy reason they had a fat tire category... for mountain bikes only with tires >2.1 width... And of course I was crazy enough to enter this race/category....

    We (the mountain bikers) were the last to go and all road bike categories ahead of us had at least a 5 minute head start

    I think I passed about 5 road bikers up that hill... They were not pleased/friendly as I passed them... Especially considering I'm 200 lbs...

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDK View Post
    Riding on the sidewalk and riding against traffic is not legal in Tempe. They police will not bother little kids on sidewalks or if there is no bike lane on a busy road but you will be sited if a cop bored enough sees you. There are signs on the sidewalks that have a picture of a bike and say wrong way when going against traffic.
    Most people are really good when they see my 4 year old and smile and say something cool to her or put a thumb up. We ride every day all over Tempe she will even do 9 mile rides with me. This was the only time that I was pissed off by a bike rider. Today we did a 4 mile round trip and on our way home an old guy going the wrong way on the sidewalk went into the gravel on the side and stopped as she passed.
    Kinda bored today... From Tempe's City Codes:

    Sec. 7-52. Riding on sidewalks or bicycle lanes.
    (a) The city traffic engineer is authorized to erect or place signs on any sidewalk or roadway, prohibiting the riding of bicycle thereon by any person; and when such signs are in place no person shall disobey same.
    (b) Whenever any person is riding a bicycle upon a sidewalk, such person shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian and should give audible signal before overtaking and passing such pedestrian.
    (c) No person shall ride or operate a bicycle in any direction except that permitted by vehicular traffic on the same side of the roadway where the sidewalk or bicycle lane exists; provided, that bicycles may proceed either way where signs or pavement markings on the sidewalk, bikeway or bicycle lane appear designating two-way traffic.
    (d) Any person riding a bicycle on a bikeway, sidewalk or bicycle path that is about to enter or cross a roadway shall yield the right-of-way to all traffic on such roadway.
    (Ord. No. 87.24, 1-14-88)

    http://www.tempe.gov/Home/ShowDocument?id=8704

  27. #27
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    There is a short section of multi use path that I use on occasions. I'm always surprised by the number of people that move to tier left when being approached head on. This is not the UK people. We drive on the right.

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    I ride frequently up around Happy Jack. The trails/ FS roads can be separated by a few miles of HWY87. I always ride against traffic there. There is virtually nothing between the white line and the dirt. I, like Douger, want to see that big ol' chevy coming. 87 is really, really unsafe for cycling in some sections.

    As far as passing roadies, I was in Durango last summer, I was riding from north Durango to Purgatory to ride Hermosa back. I didn't realize it was "Race the Train" day. After a few escort cars, the fast guys at the front passed me, they ALL had 15 MPH on me. I got passed like I was going the other way. There were so many riders, it was difficult to get off the road and let them by. Very cool sound though.
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    OT rant [deleted]
    Last edited by Douger-1; 08-01-2014 at 06:17 AM.
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  30. #30
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    With all the ways to die on the road, let's spend our time *****ing about a cyclist!
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  31. #31
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    Mountain bike on the road etiquette

    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    I won't go into the right or wrong arena b/c I just don't know or have the experience but I can offer my thoughts as someone who does respect life and give cyclists a fair amount of slack.

    It seems to me that "own your lane " is being smart and assertive in most cases but this isn't that.
    It telegraphs to me; Skip the option of using the bike lane and force motorists to be extra attentive and take up half of the car lane next to them to give the clearance that would have been provided/accounted for in the bike lane.

    Motorists don't always have that other lane free or available to accommodate and it's more likely my checking that blind spot in the last few seconds could easily throw my path of travel just that slight bit (remember, that bike or rider has half of his/her mass in my lane).
    The other likely event is I have a car overtaking me in that other lane (blind spot) and there is no where to go and precious little time to save this riders life.
    A life left to the whims of drivers that might be half awake at 7 am.

    I know people want to fight for their rights and privileges but responsibility and obligation to get home safely should trump riding the white line.

    That said, I still feel a big sense of pride for the bikers that will wave at me when I'm just doing the right thing and the legal thing by waiting on them to cross at an intersection.

    Truly, one of these riders going that extra effort to pass on thanks more than pays it forward for the half dozen knuckle heads who lack the sense to save their own hide.
    Have you ever been in a bike lane? They are not the most maintained places, and a lot of road hazards exist in them.

    Riding the white line? Yeah - perfectly fine. Most likely the safest place to be.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by CridgeMTBT View Post
    Have you ever been in a bike lane? They are not the most maintained places, and a lot of road hazards exist in them.

    Riding the white line? Yeah - perfectly fine. Most likely the safest place to be.
    I ride in and around traffic very little. I just can't see a way to be very comfortable with it. I know what I see and experience as a driver so it's an effective deterrent. (And I'm speaking in terms of the of the bike lane. The white line is not an option for me).

    I understand many do commute by bike and that's fine. I greatly respect these riders for any and all reasons they ride.... saving gas, saving Earth, money, choosing not to have a car or not affording or needing one. I feel bad that communities don't have a better / safer method of demarcation when much of what I see are hopeful two-wheelers hanging it out there everyday. Far too many in the news every year as well.

    I've ridden to work a few times and the bike lanes I speak of are on the way to / from work. They are in pretty good shape. We get street sweepers making their rounds and I never thought of it til just now. That would certainly be the fix and maintenance.

    If you or anyone else feels the best place is the white line, I certainly won't argue that some feel safer about their preferred method. I can only tell you how I see it and how I'm fairly certain some of these methods likely feed rage that some drivers exhibit.
    Unless the motorist were an avid cyclist, no way are they going to think a 4" line is the place to be when a 3 foot path exists with enough room to encompass the bike, rider and both elbows. They are probably thinking the bike rider is taking up more room / space then they were afforded and now the driver has to mitigate a hazard that is in the in the road - his/her lane of traffic.
    No idea where the law falls on this one though.

    I wonder how unyielding in attitude a cyclist would state his/her adherence to riding the white line if they were an unfortunate victim of a collision by a vehicle that truly didn't see a conflict coming.
    My guess is they would understate their actual position and describe it more toward the path as designated by the lines painted on the road.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    I wonder how unyielding in attitude a cyclist would state his/her adherence to riding the white line if they were an unfortunate victim of a collision by a vehicle that truly didn't see a conflict coming.
    Doesn't matter. It's still the motorist's responsibility to pass with 3 feet between vehicle and cyclist regardless of where the cyclist is.

    Not that the law really makes things safer or is enforced in any real manner...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bachman1961 View Post
    I wonder how unyielding in attitude a cyclist would state his/her adherence to riding the white line if they were an unfortunate victim of a collision by a vehicle that truly didn't see a conflict coming.
    Sounds like said driver wasn't paying attention to the road and probably had a good chance of hitting the cyclist anyway regardless of where the cyclist was at. In that case, I'll take my chances at making myself more visible by riding on the far left of the bike lane and occasionally on it - especially when the right vehicle lane is very wide which they usually are here in Phx.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevland View Post
    Doesn't matter. It's still the motorist's responsibility to pass with 3 feet between vehicle and cyclist regardless of where the cyclist is.

    Not that the law really makes things safer or is enforced in any real manner...

    Yeah, I guess that's the underlying issue with me.

    I can't trust other drivers I see in my car everyday with any degree of satisfaction and all I think of is a negligent driver or bicyclist making a mistake that catapults them into another zip code. At the end of the day, it matters little to me who's fault it is and I'm fortunate enough to have transportation options that better fit my nervous-nelly risk aversion.

    I have mapped out a path that takes me off the roads and bike lanes more so I do have an option. I'm riding in to work at 10 pm and see many teens out joyriding with 4 or 5 in the car. Presumably, many are distracted, and inexperienced drivers. I know the stats for collisions in the evening or night time hours, bar-hopping etc....
    Commuting during daylight hours, I know I'd feel a bit better about it though.

    Best to all no matter how or where you ride.
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    I ride my bikes (road and MTB) just like I drive and ride my motorcycles...defensively. I can't help but notice how many roadies tend to be a bit arrogant. Some ride as if they own the road and are even on a death wish. Some almost deserve to be hit by a car, though I'd never wish anyone any harm. I know this will piss people off but it's my observation and opinion. Sorry...

    Since we're complaining, what's the deal with runners running in the bike lane that don't have the courtesy to hop on the sidewalk when a biker is coming in the opposite direction? I know they have the right of way but it makes more sense to me that the runner hop on the sidewalk for a few strides rather than make the cyclist ride into the street in harms way of traffic. BTW, I run as we'll and do this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sloonz View Post
    I ride my bikes (road and MTB) just like I drive and ride my motorcycles...defensively. I can't help but notice how many roadies tend to be a bit arrogant. Some ride as if they own the road and are even on a death wish. Some almost deserve to be hit by a car, though I'd never wish anyone any harm. I know this will piss people off but it's my observation and opinion. Sorry...
    That's how it looks to me for just about every road biker I see. You won't catch me on the roads. At least on my motorcycle I can go as fast (and much faster) that traffic so I'm not a hazard (target).

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    Have to agree with these last two sentiments. I do ride my m/c and do so assertively. I feel the same about differing speeds.
    On a bicycle we get dusted by traffic at speeds of +20 to +45 or more whereas on the motorbike, I can manage my speed to not be an obstacle, more a contender.

    Most of my experience and strategy to save my own butt on the m/c applies to what and how I behave on my bicycle. The last thing I want to do is taunt motorists with any inkling of the elitist attitude I seem to encounter at times as a motorist by bicyclists.

    I think that paves the way toward a wrong message and gaining rights or any forward-thinking footage benefiting bicyclists will likely suffer by reputation alone.
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    In Los Angeles, we have more and more bike lanes being added to our major roadways.

    I like to ride from home to keep the vehicle driving down to a minimum and to simplify my stressful life. This requires at least a few miles of pavement riding in order to reach the dirt. There is one section (w/o a bike lane) where I do in fact ride on the side walk going against traffic. My understanding is that the cops will look the other way as long as I am moving at pedestrian speed so I keep it slowish through there. This particular stretch of sidewalk is quite wide and I have passed by peds many times w/o incident.

    Why do I ride on the sidewalk going against traffic in this area?

    Because riding in the street on the other side is extremely dangerous since it merges with a freeway off ramp where cars are rolling on a downhill slope at 55-70mph. The sidewalk at the exact merging also ends abruptly.

    I will not alter from what I feel is a safe route for my concern. If I ever get pulled over by Johnny Law, I will swallow my medicine and sign on the dotted line if he (or she) doesn't see my point of view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sloonz View Post
    Since we're complaining, what's the deal with runners running in the bike lane that don't have the courtesy to hop on the sidewalk when a biker is coming in the opposite direction? I know they have the right of way but it makes more sense to me that the runner hop on the sidewalk for a few strides rather than make the cyclist ride into the street in harms way of traffic. BTW, I run as we'll and do this.
    I see this in So Cal, too. Is it even legal to be walking/jogging/running/pushing a stroller in the street (biking lane)??? It's called a "bike lane", yes?
    life is... "All About Bikes"...

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawg View Post
    In Los Angeles, we have more and more bike lanes being added to our major roadways.

    I like to ride from home to keep the vehicle driving down to a minimum and to simplify my stressful life. This requires at least a few miles of pavement riding in order to reach the dirt. There is one section (w/o a bike lane) where I do in fact ride on the side walk going against traffic. My understanding is that the cops will look the other way as long as I am moving at pedestrian speed so I keep it slowish through there. This particular stretch of sidewalk is quite wide and I have passed by peds many times w/o incident.

    Why do I ride on the sidewalk going against traffic in this area?

    Because riding in the street on the other side is extremely dangerous since it merges with a freeway off ramp where cars are rolling on a downhill slope at 55-70mph. The sidewalk at the exact merging also ends abruptly.

    I will not alter from what I feel is a safe route for my concern. If I ever get pulled over by Johnny Law, I will swallow my medicine and sign on the dotted line if he (or she) doesn't see my point of view.
    That makes sense.
    I don't have a problem with erring on the side of being safe and sensible when at times, the letter of the law isn't backing us up. I do the same.
    You are being prudent in riding at pedestrian speed on the walkways. I do the same anytime I am near hikers and pass them at a slight variance in speed to respect their safety and minimize the startled response (and likely b1tching - lol).
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    That's how it looks to me for just about every road biker I see. You won't catch me on the roads. At least on my motorcycle I can go as fast (and much faster) that traffic so I'm not a hazard (target).
    Speed may be good going with traffic but not so sure when it comes to the ability of drivers to see motorcycles coming at intersections. Smaller size = less visibility and at higher speeds = less potential reaction time for inattentive drivers. Nothing like having a car pull out and turn across your lane to get the brakes and heart pumping hard.

    Think the general stereotyping of roadies/arrogance is a bit harsh coming from a mtb forum? I mean, I know we all always call out when passing, slow for hikers and stop at intersections/obey all traffic laws on the streets, put in lots of trail maintenance time etc. but still...
    A lot of roadies ride arrogantly for sure, but a lot ride pretty conservatively as well. Maybe just the a-holes stand out more? Maybe a bit judgemental to generalize that much.

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    Mountain bike on the road etiquette

    I admit the occasion I ride my bike on the road. It's the sidewalk. Hardly anyone uses the new sidewalks in the ruralish part of town. And the bike lanes seem to skip every other block. Knowing how others drive in the area I'm lucky the sidewalks are somewhat safe. Seen tire tracks on people's lawns and cars in house windows. Yeah I live in a ghetto area. I prefer the trails but like to bike longer distances and less bumpy rocks. And it's weight training when you add a basket to the front of a mountain bike and load it with 25 pounds of library books.
    Road biking looks fun, but I'm too scared of going splat.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by rab View Post
    Speed may be good going with traffic but not so sure when it comes to the ability of drivers to see motorcycles coming at intersections. Smaller size = less visibility and at higher speeds = less potential reaction time for inattentive drivers. Nothing like having a car pull out and turn across your lane to get the brakes and heart pumping hard.
    My comments have nothing to do with being seen and the inherent dangers of being on a motorcycle. Most accidents happen at intersections because people don't care enough to pay attention.

    I was talking simply about being a hazard. ANY vehicle riding on the road that can not keep up with the flow of traffic is a hazard. Unless there's an unusually wide bike lane AND the rider stays in it. Many comment about riding as far away from the gutter and closer to traffic for several very good and legitimate reasons: visibility, debri, etc. But, the closer you are to traffic when you aren't keeping up with the flow the more of a hazard you are.

    People in general are incompetent and can't be bothered to pay attention while driving. I'll not put my life in their hands and ride on the road. No thanks...

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    ARS 28-101.6. "Bicycle" means a device, including a racing wheelchair, that is propelled by human power and on which a person may ride and that has either:
    (a) Two tandem wheels, either of which is more than sixteen inches in diameter.
    (b) Three wheels in contact with the ground, any of which is more than sixteen inches in diameter.

    Here's the loophole allowing kids to ride bikes on the sidewalk, even if it's posted "NO BIKES." If the wheels are less than 16 inches in diameter, it doesn't meet the definition of a "bicycle" under Arizona law.

    Having said that, sidewalks are generally not appropriate for adult riding due to conflicts with pedestrians and lack of visibility/predictability to motorists... especially if the bike is travelling opposite the direction of traffic. This is why they are called sideWALKS... not sideRIDES!

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agavepuro View Post
    ARS 28-101.6. "Bicycle" means a device, including a racing wheelchair, that is propelled by human power and on which a person may ride and that has either:
    (a) Two tandem wheels, either of which is more than sixteen inches in diameter.
    (b) Three wheels in contact with the ground, any of which is more than sixteen inches in diameter.

    Here's the loophole allowing kids to ride bikes on the sidewalk, even if it's posted "NO BIKES." If the wheels are less than 16 inches in diameter, it doesn't meet the definition of a "bicycle" under Arizona law.

    Having said that, sidewalks are generally not appropriate for adult riding due to conflicts with pedestrians and lack of visibility/predictability to motorists... especially if the bike is travelling opposite the direction of traffic. This is why they are called sideWALKS... not sideRIDES!
    IDGAF what the law says! You need to do some soul searching if you value your life less than the cost of a petty traffic offense.
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    Thanks for your concern. I've been a roadie for 35 years and a mountain biker for 27 years. I was also a League Certified Instructor for 3 years. When I have reason to ride my MTB on road, I do it the same way I would on my road bike... with traffic following traffic laws. I'm still here! And the accident statistics support riding in a vehicular fashion. Wrong way riding is the number one accident factor, followed by wrong way on the sidewalk. Drivers simply don't look for anything faster than a pedestrian going the wrong way. So... if you feel compelled to use sidewalks, at least go the same direction as traffic and keep the speed WAY down.

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    Pfffffffrrrrrrrt!............on the spectrum.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agavepuro View Post
    Wrong way riding is the number one accident factor, followed by wrong way on the sidewalk.
    Riding on the left side of the road isn't just number one, It's number one by a wide margin. Fatalities too, a head on collision with rider going 20 and car going 50 is 70mph to the head as opposed to 30mph going with traffic which is bad but maybe survivable. Your reaction time and the cars is greatly decreased. I have no problem keeping an eyes and ears on traffic from behind and have become a pretty good judge of when to bail.

    Cars turning right are looking for cars coming from the left and won't even see you. Every street or driveway puts you at high risk. It's dum dum dum.

    and sidewalks are for little kids and pu$$ies.

    I know this post is old but to the OP, asking road riding advice on an MTB board is like asking on a PITA board the best way to butcher a pig from what I've seen.

  51. #51
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    Hey.. I lost a french tickler. Any one seen it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post

    I know this post is old but to the OP, asking road riding advice on an MTB board is like asking on a PITA board the best way to butcher a pig from what I've seen.
    True!! Just hoping to give a little advice and encouragement to those who actually want to learn. Some folks you just cain't reach....

  53. #53
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    Another off topic rant on my part. Why don't joggers, walkers use the side walk? I saw a lady around 0500am walking on the road, next to a perfectly good sidewalk, get hit by a car and fly about 15 ft in the air. She was out cold and in bad shape but survived. To date its one of the most traumatic things I've seen. Every time i see someone walking on the road i cringe.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agavepuro View Post
    When I have reason to ride my MTB on road, I do it the same way I would on my road bike... with traffic following traffic laws. I'm still here! And the accident statistics support riding in a vehicular fashion. Wrong way riding is the number one accident factor, followed by wrong way on the sidewalk. Drivers simply don't look for anything faster than a pedestrian going the wrong way. So... if you feel compelled to use sidewalks, at least go the same direction as traffic and keep the speed WAY down.
    A pedestrian walks at about 3mph, a bike travels 3 to 5 times faster than that or more. I work in the far east valley, I'm in my work truck all day driving from one work site to the next. Apache Junction may have the highest precent of cyclist in the valley. Not so much because they love cycling, but more because so many residents have DUI's, or maybe they're riding stolen bikes on there way to their next Crack hit. Either way these people ride like dumb asses. Not to mention those on bikes with gas motors traveling 25mph on the sidewalk and going the wrong way.

    Nothing will ruin my day faster than having a close call with someone on a bike. Every time I've ever had a close call it's always been with someone riding their bike like a pedestrian.
    Better than most, not as good as some.

  55. #55
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    Concrete side walk are tougher on the knees compared to asphalt. I try to run on les busy streets, the opposite direction of traffic. Roadies do not like sharing with runners. In many roadies eyes, runners should jump out of the way for a bike to pass. Had debates about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by darth biker View Post
    Another off topic rant on my part. Why don't joggers, walkers use the side walk? I saw a lady around 0500am walking on the road, next to a perfectly good sidewalk, get hit by a car and fly about 15 ft in the air. She was out cold and in bad shape but survived. To date its one of the most traumatic things I've seen. Every time i see someone walking on the road i cringe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    Concrete side walk are tougher on the knees compared to asphalt. I try to run on les busy streets, the opposite direction of traffic. Roadies do not like sharing with runners. In many roadies eyes, runners should jump out of the way for a bike to pass. Had debates about it.
    ARS 28-815.C A path or lane that is designated as a bicycle path or lane by state or local authorities is for the exclusive use of bicycles even though other uses are permitted pursuant to subsection D or are otherwise permitted by state or local authorities.
    D. A person shall not operate, stop, park or leave standing a vehicle in a path or lane designated as a bicycle path or lane by a state or local authority except in the case of emergency or for crossing the path or lane to gain access to a public or private road or driveway.
    E. Subsection D does not prohibit the use of the path or lane by the appropriate local authority.

    Bicycle lanes are for the "exclusive" use of bicycles... at least the ones riding in accordance with traffic laws. It is therefore appropriate that a runner traveling opposite the flow of traffic should yield the lane, rather than expect the cyclist to risk swerving into automobile lanes. When confronted with this situation or a wrong way bike rider ((can't be regarded as a real cyclist), I often stop in the middle of the lane and make them go around me. Never sacrifice your own safety for the convenience of others.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agavepuro View Post
    ARS 28-815.C A path or lane that is designated as a bicycle path or lane by state or local authorities is for the exclusive use of bicycles even though other uses are permitted pursuant to subsection D or are otherwise permitted by state or local authorities.
    D. A person shall not operate, stop, park or leave standing a vehicle in a path or lane designated as a bicycle path or lane by a state or local authority except in the case of emergency or for crossing the path or lane to gain access to a public or private road or driveway.
    E. Subsection D does not prohibit the use of the path or lane by the appropriate local authority.

    Bicycle lanes are for the "exclusive" use of bicycles... at least the ones riding in accordance with traffic laws. It is therefore appropriate that a runner traveling opposite the flow of traffic should yield the lane, rather than expect the cyclist to risk swerving into automobile lanes. When confronted with this situation or a wrong way bike rider ((can't be regarded as a real cyclist), I often stop in the middle of the lane and make them go around me. Never sacrifice your own safety for the convenience of others.
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    Ahhh! The debate is on again.

    Where I run it is not a bike lane. How often is the shoulder classified as a bike lane? Also, your law talks to vehicles, not pedestrians.

    How do you like this law? I think it is BS, but hey, you want to use the law against my point that roadies get the right of way and right of being rude to runners.
    Shoulder Use | Arizona Bike Law
    Arizona has no mandatory shoulder use law for bicyclists. §28-815A specifies where, laterally, a bicyclist must ride when riding on the roadway. It contains no provisions for requiring removal from the roadway onto any shoulder, ever.

    Check this out though:
    28-796. Pedestrian on roadways
    A. If sidewalks are provided, a pedestrian shall not walk along and on an adjacent roadway.
    B. If sidewalks are not provided, a pedestrian walking along and on a highway shall walk when practicable only on the left side of the roadway or its shoulder facing traffic that may approach from the opposite direction.

    Talks about walking, not running?

    Long and the short is I feel both should be there and right of way is unclear. Most are cool and stay out of each others way. I have just found that some roadies tend to be rude about it. I get your point about safety and when I ride road, in a busy area it freaks me out. Hence why I spend the vast majority of my pedaling on trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SugarHigh View Post
    Ahhh! The debate is on again.

    Where I run it is not a bike lane. How often is the shoulder classified as a bike lane? Also, your law talks to vehicles, not pedestrians.

    .
    My bad... I assumed we were talking about bike lanes. NOT looking for a debate, simply the facts re traffic laws. You are correct that the rules require pedestrians to travel on the left shoulder, where practicable, facing traffic.

    ARS 28-101-41. "Pedestrian" means any person afoot. ....

    So, running or walking, anyone on foot is a pedestrian and should use the left shoulder... unless a sidewalk is provided per ARS 28-796 which you quoted.

    28-812. Applicability of traffic laws to bicycle riders
    A person riding a bicycle on a roadway or on a shoulder adjoining a roadway is granted all of the rights and is subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle....

    The shoulder is considered part of a roadway, therefore cyclists are required to behave as drivers of vehicles, regardless of which side of the shoulder deliniation stripe. They are also required to ride as far to the right as practicable, which usually means the shoulder. So, cyclists are legally required to be there.

    IF a sidewalk is available, pedestrians (runners) are required to use that. I understand the desire to run on the more forgiving asphault surface, but that involves a conscious choice to use a facility designated for autos and bicycles. In this case, the pedestrian should hop up on the sidewalk and let the bike pass unimpeded.

    Where no sidewalk is provided, then I agree that both are equally entitled to be on the shoulder and need to make way for one another... preferably with due courtesy. From a practical standpoint, pedestrians are more maneuverable than cyclists. If you can see a cyclist is going to have to take a risk to pass you, why not stop for a moment and let them by?? Good manners and concern for others go both ways.

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    BTW, your "shoulder use" link is excellent! Saving it to favorites...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agavepuro View Post
    BTW, your "shoulder use" link is excellent! Saving it to favorites...
    Oh yeah, definitely memorize all that; never know when you'll need it!
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    I'll not put my life in their hands and ride on the road. No thanks...
    If you ride a motorcycle, you are doing exactly that. Motorcycles have the same risks as bikes, but at higher speeds, making them more dangerous. A bicycle being a so called "hazard" due to its slower speed has little to do with real safety. Most car/bike accidents are not caused by a bike having a slower speed (hazard, as you put it).
    I AM JUST A JERK

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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    It's parents. They don't want to be parents. Don't want to teach their kids how to behave, what the rules of the {whatever} are. We are raising a society of kids that think they own the world, they can do anything they want, they don't have to answer to anyone. And they typically don't...
    They have been saying this since the beginning of time. Society is not degrading and parents are still parents.
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  64. #64
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    Please don't use logic and common sense around here please. Its always easier to blame others. Whats wrong with you?
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    To be honest, most businesses and planners don't give a crap about this, we don't fund inspectors and force civil penalties on businesses that design their entrances/driveways and other aspects that block visibility, so people die and there are lawsuits.

    Go to just about any driveway entrance that exits onto a road. You'll notice from the "stopsign" that there's NO WAY you can see someone coming down the sidewalk, weather it's a walker, skater, biker, or runner. There are hedges, signs, all sorts of obstructions that force the person to pull up way past the stopsign and simply clobber whomever was using the sidewalk. We've simply let them get away with it, rather than force them to comply with codes that would ensure visibility and train motorists to actually STOP at or before the stopsign. This goes for intersections too.

    The reason that bikes don't really mix with traffic is we've designed it that way. It does make for some pretty solid lawsuits at times, but you are taking your life into your hands IMO many times and you just have to be ultra-careful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    If you ride a motorcycle, you are doing exactly that. Motorcycles have the same risks as bikes, but at higher speeds, making them more dangerous. A bicycle being a so called "hazard" due to its slower speed has little to do with real safety. Most car/bike accidents are not caused by a bike having a slower speed (hazard, as you put it).
    It certainly does have everything to do with speed and the bicyclist's ability to keep up with traffic. I've never been on my motorcycle and had someone have to swerve out of my lane and around me, surpassing my speed by 30 mph or more, because I was a hazard traveling too slow.

    Bikes on the road are a hazard NOT because they are on the road but because they can't go with the flow of traffic. This makes everyone have to work around them. That's what a traffic hazard is: something that everyone has to avoid.

    Haven't you ever been on the freeway and EVERYONE is doing the speed limit except one little old lady doing 55 mph? Who is the hazard? The hundreds of vehicles that are driving with the flow of traffic or the person that everyone is having to slow down and/or swerve to avoid?

    I know and acknowledge that bikes have a right to be there. It just isn't safe being a hazard so I choose not to do it. Plus, I can't think of anything more boring than pedaling on asphalt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    It certainly does have everything to do with speed and the bicyclist's ability to keep up with traffic. I've never been on my motorcycle and had someone have to swerve out of my lane and around me, surpassing my speed by 30 mph or more, because I was a hazard traveling too slow.

    Bikes on the road are a hazard NOT because they are on the road but because they can't go with the flow of traffic. This makes everyone have to work around them. That's what a traffic hazard is: something that everyone has to avoid.

    Haven't you ever been on the freeway and EVERYONE is doing the speed limit except one little old lady doing 55 mph? Who is the hazard? The hundreds of vehicles that are driving with the flow of traffic or the person that everyone is having to slow down and/or swerve to avoid?

    I know and acknowledge that bikes have a right to be there. It just isn't safe being a hazard so I choose not to do it. Plus, I can't think of anything more boring than pedaling on asphalt.
    Everything on the road, from cars, bikes, motorcycles, people, rocks, etc., all may be a hazard in some context or another. However, your premise that motorcycles are safer than bikes because bikes can't travel as fast as cars is incorrect. The greatest danger to bikes is not getting hit from behind and is thus not related to the ability of a bike to ride within the flow of traffic. Motorcycles are simply much more dangerous. I have seen many "little old ladies" doing 55 mph when the speed limit is 65 mph or greater. I've never hit one, and although I am guessing, I don't think these "old ladies" are causing any meaningful amount of traffic accidents. Indeed, it can easily be argued that they, themselves, are being safer by going slower. If you want to call this behavior a hazard, so be it. If you want to ride motorcycles, fine. But the justification that they are safer than bikes doesn't fit. Riding bikes on the road is dangerous, but I choose to do so. I choose not to ride motorcycles because they are too dangerous.

    Now, another interesting argument is the safety of road cycling vs. mtb. I've had many bad falls riding mtb, including a couple that required trips to the ER. Nothing too serious, but bad enough. So far I've only had one bad fall on the road where I was taken out by another rider in a race.
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    boring tl;dr up in here......
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    Riding on the sidewalk is dumb but riding on the left side of the road is one of the stupidest things you can do. You become invisible to traffic and it's basically suicide. If you want to take yourself out, fine but not at the hands of some motorist just trying to get where he's going.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Go to just about any driveway entrance that exits onto a road. You'll notice from the "stopsign" that there's NO WAY you can see someone coming down the sidewalk, weather it's a walker, skater, biker, or runner. There are hedges, signs, all sorts of obstructions that force the person to pull up way past the stopsign and simply clobber whomever was using the sidewalk. We've simply let them get away with it, rather than force them to comply with codes that would ensure visibility and train motorists to actually STOP at or before the stopsign. This goes for intersections too.

    The reason that bikes don't really mix with traffic is we've designed it that way. It does make for some pretty solid lawsuits at times, but you are taking your life into your hands IMO many times and you just have to be ultra-careful.
    This is true, and yet another tesimonial supporting riding on road, not on sidewalks. Drivers leaving parking lots frequently encroach upon the sidewalk before stopping to look for "real" traffic on the road. If youre riding, walking, skating, etc on the sidewalk, its inevitable that one of these drivers is going to cross your path of travel, without looking, to get the the "real" intersection where the "real" traffic (cars) will be encountered. If you're traveling on the road with the flow of traffic, you are now one of the vehicles this driver is looking for. And being seen is key to being safe.

    This scenario is exacerbated when the sidewalk is grade or landscape-seperated from the roadway proper. Now you find drivers pushing even more aggressively accross the sidewalk/multi-use path to get to the "real" intersection, regardless of stop/yield signs intended to protect less experienced users of these "safer facilities". AND, drivers turning off the main roadway are less likely to notice folks using these grade separated sidewalks/pathways and give 'em the old "right hook." The few times Ive tried using grade seperated multi-use paths/sidewalks, my head was on a swivel scanning for both the right hook AND sidewalk charger. It was so much less stressful to stay on the road proper wher I was part of the established pattern and easily seen and my actions easily predicted by others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GR1822 View Post
    The truck driver undeniably crossed the shoulder line and struck the cyclist, which is unforgivable. But, the cyclist had two cameras going to document the incedent. Who rides a commuter route with a camera, let alone two? Makes me wonder if there wasnt prior history of conflict, and the cyclist intended to record a "close call" for evidence. If so, better judgement might have prevented the carnage. On the other hand, I sincerely hope the driver is on an enforced vacation courtesy if the state... with his new wife, Elmer.

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    This is all good intelectual banter, but I propose a real-time experiment to remove, once and for all, any lingering doubts regarding rules of the road. Starting at 12:01am on Wed Feb 18, we all start driving however we please with no regard for established traffic laws/rules of the road. Tell three friends, etc, etc. Bring the vehicle of your choice... Bicycle, garbage truck, MC, super car, rent the biggest RV you can find. Drive in the left lane, turn left on red, use the sidewalks and drive the wrong way in dedicated bike lanes, even disregard the barriers to off-road trails... anything goes!!!

    Stipulation: Mrwhlr gets a bicycle, period.Since he believes, emphatically,that riding anywhere, however he pleases is justified to "protect" his own safety, he needs to be the "control" in this experiment, thus alowing optimal conditions in which to prove his theory. It should be easy... since he can't afford to buy a few vowels (hint: they should all be the same) to complete his intended handle, he probbly cant afford to pay attention. He should have no problem counting his cards, playing with half a deck... maybe. Oh, did I mention this experiment starts on his street?? What was that address, tough guy??

    Ready?? On 3-2-1... go!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    Everything on the road, from cars, bikes, motorcycles, people, rocks, etc., all may be a hazard in some context or another.
    Everything that is NOT behaving like the rest of traffic can be a hazard. If you're on a freeway and EVERYONE is going the same speed life is wonderful because NO ONE is acting like a hazard. If you have just a couple people going faster or slower that EVERYONE else is when you start encountering hazards. If one person is driving slower just about everyone has avoid them or avoid others that are trying to avoid them. The slower person is the hazard. The fact that you can't see this means I'm talking to myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    However, your premise that motorcycles are safer than bikes because bikes can't travel as fast as cars is incorrect.
    No, it's not. And you have even supplied an argument as to why it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    Motorcycles are simply much more dangerous.
    No, they aren't. Maybe you are confusing the SEVERITY of bodily damage due to a higher rate of speed as danger? But danger, in my definition, is doing something that has a higher likelihood of causing an accident. NOT, how bad the accident or injury will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    I have seen many "little old ladies" doing 55 mph when the speed limit is 65 mph or greater. I've never hit one, and although I am guessing, I don't think these "old ladies" are causing any meaningful amount of traffic accidents.
    Possibly not. But they sure as sh|t are a hazard. Because everyone has to stop the natural flow of traffic to avoid hitting them and getting around them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    Indeed, it can easily be argued that they, themselves, are being safer by going slower.
    No, it can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    If you want to call this behavior a hazard, so be it.
    It is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    If you want to ride motorcycles, fine. But the justification that they are safer than bikes doesn't fit. Riding bikes on the road is dangerous, but I choose to do so. I choose not to ride motorcycles because they are too dangerous.
    I don't care that you or anyone else rides pavement. You're acting like I'm attacking your whole existence by pointing out the obvious. I'm not a roadie hater. I simply don't care. And I certainly will not put my 200 lb body up against 3000+ pounds of metal (and the person piloting it that doesn't care about me) because I know who wins that battle EVERY time.

    But, you'll never convince me that motorcycles are a larger hazard than bicycles, or that bicycles are NOT a hazard to traffic, because neither is even remotely close to the truth. If the motorcycle is behaving properly he is riding with the flow of traffic and you'll likely never even notice. It is not possible to ride a bicycle, outside of a bike lane, and NOT be a hazard to everyone else because you are always in the way.

    I won't be swearing at you or honking and yelling for you to get off my damn roads or passing you without plenty of clearance because you have the right to be there. But bicycles on the road, outside of a bike lane, are a hazard to the rest of traffic which is 99% automobile.

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    Thought this thread was about how one should behave if one chooses to ride a bicycle on the road??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agavepuro View Post
    Thought this thread was about how one should behave if one chooses to ride a bicycle on the road??
    Hope you can handle disappointment!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Hope you can handle disappointment!
    Productive....

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    Got it... thanks! Saving that one, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freeskier46 View Post
    What's the penalty for a road biker getting passed by a fully loaded bikepacking rig on the Usury rd. climb? (True story, I said 'hello' as I rode by)
    Or how about getting passed by a trail runner while going uphill on a mountain bike? (True story, it happened to a really, really good friend off mine.)
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Oh oh.....or what about thirsty looks from checkers at Sprouts, trying to visualize how your c0ck looks through your pants?
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Everything that is NOT behaving like the rest of traffic can be a hazard. If you're on a freeway and EVERYONE is going the same speed life is wonderful because NO ONE is acting like a hazard. If you have just a couple people going faster or slower that EVERYONE else is when you start encountering hazards. If one person is driving slower just about everyone has avoid them or avoid others that are trying to avoid them. The slower person is the hazard. The fact that you can't see this means I'm talking to myself.


    No, it's not. And you have even supplied an argument as to why it is.


    No, they aren't. Maybe you are confusing the SEVERITY of bodily damage due to a higher rate of speed as danger? But danger, in my definition, is doing something that has a higher likelihood of causing an accident. NOT, how bad the accident or injury will be.


    Possibly not. But they sure as sh|t are a hazard. Because everyone has to stop the natural flow of traffic to avoid hitting them and getting around them.


    No, it can't.


    It is.


    I don't care that you or anyone else rides pavement. You're acting like I'm attacking your whole existence by pointing out the obvious. I'm not a roadie hater. I simply don't care. And I certainly will not put my 200 lb body up against 3000+ pounds of metal (and the person piloting it that doesn't care about me) because I know who wins that battle EVERY time.

    But, you'll never convince me that motorcycles are a larger hazard than bicycles, or that bicycles are NOT a hazard to traffic, because neither is even remotely close to the truth. If the motorcycle is behaving properly he is riding with the flow of traffic and you'll likely never even notice. It is not possible to ride a bicycle, outside of a bike lane, and NOT be a hazard to everyone else because you are always in the way.

    I won't be swearing at you or honking and yelling for you to get off my damn roads or passing you without plenty of clearance because you have the right to be there. But bicycles on the road, outside of a bike lane, are a hazard to the rest of traffic which is 99% automobile.
    Mike, you make a good point that speed differential presents a hazard. But, based on that point alone, EVERYONE, at some point in their travels, becomes a hazard to other traffic and to themselves. It is not possible to ride a motorcycle, or any other vehicle, at the same speed as other traffic as a constant. At some point you are going to have to exit the roadway you're on or join another. Left, right or merge, you WILL be traveling at a speed inconsistent with the flow of traffic... sometimes actually stopped while traffic atempts to stop behind you or avoid you.

    For example, turning right into a private driveway (supermarket, print shop, residence, whatever) that doesn't have a dedicated right turn lane means you MUST slow down in a normal traffic lane to execute the turn. And g0d help you if the turn happens to be left on a narrow two-way street with no median buffer (assume there is oncoming traffic, which means you MUST stop and wait) or dedicated left turn lane... especially if you're on two wheels. There's little difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle in a hard rear-end collision. And if probability of collision, rather than severity of injury, is the definition of "hazard," there is NO difference.

    I ride anything and everything equipped with only two wheels, so I'm very aware of all such scenarios....

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    This happened to me too... I wanted to ride off the side of the cliff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Observer View Post
    Or how about getting passed by a trail runner while going uphill on a mountain bike? (True story, it happened to a really, really good friend off mine.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Everything that is NOT behaving like the rest of traffic can be a hazard. If you're on a freeway and EVERYONE is going the same speed life is wonderful because NO ONE is acting like a hazard. If you have just a couple people going faster or slower that EVERYONE else is when you start encountering hazards. If one person is driving slower just about everyone has avoid them or avoid others that are trying to avoid them. The slower person is the hazard. The fact that you can't see this means I'm talking to myself.


    No, it's not. And you have even supplied an argument as to why it is.


    No, they aren't. Maybe you are confusing the SEVERITY of bodily damage due to a higher rate of speed as danger? But danger, in my definition, is doing something that has a higher likelihood of causing an accident. NOT, how bad the accident or injury will be.


    Possibly not. But they sure as sh|t are a hazard. Because everyone has to stop the natural flow of traffic to avoid hitting them and getting around them.


    No, it can't.


    It is.


    I don't care that you or anyone else rides pavement. You're acting like I'm attacking your whole existence by pointing out the obvious. I'm not a roadie hater. I simply don't care. And I certainly will not put my 200 lb body up against 3000+ pounds of metal (and the person piloting it that doesn't care about me) because I know who wins that battle EVERY time.

    But, you'll never convince me that motorcycles are a larger hazard than bicycles, or that bicycles are NOT a hazard to traffic, because neither is even remotely close to the truth. If the motorcycle is behaving properly he is riding with the flow of traffic and you'll likely never even notice. It is not possible to ride a bicycle, outside of a bike lane, and NOT be a hazard to everyone else because you are always in the way.

    I won't be swearing at you or honking and yelling for you to get off my damn roads or passing you without plenty of clearance because you have the right to be there. But bicycles on the road, outside of a bike lane, are a hazard to the rest of traffic which is 99% automobile.
    Your "road hazard" theory has no real nexus to anything related to bicycle safety. The bottom line is that motorcycles are more dangerous than bicycles. It's simple. Statistics show that most accidents occur at intersections for both bicycles and motorcycles. This is because both are harder to see than cars. Thus, the majority of accidents have absolutely nothing to do with the ability of a motorcycle or bicycle to stay within the flow of traffic. You even come close to conceding that an old lady doing 55 mph is not really dangerous. The fact is that it really isn't. Yes, perhaps other cars have to slow or deal with the situation, but that doesn't make it more dangerous. Drivers have to deal with things, such as "hazards" every few moments. That's how driving works. The issue I have is that you are saying road cycling is a hazard when it isn't. This is one of the same stances drivers take when they argue that bikes should not be allowed on roads.
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    Hmmmmm.....maybe vaccines do cause it? DGAF!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    ... blah blah...
    Yeah, we're simply not gonna agree. You go ahead and ride your bike on the streets and pretend you're not in the way of EVERY vehicle on the road (assuming there's no bike lane). It's absolutely your right to do so and I will gladly sit patiently behind and wait for the opportunity to pass and give you a nod when I do. But I guarantee you are in the minority in thinking you aren't in the way and a hazard (again, assuming there is not bike lane). People don't honk and yell and throw sh|t at you because they wanna make friends.

    The bottom line is anything taking up a lane of traffic that is moving slower than the majority of traffic is a hazard. Period. Doesn't matter if it's a bike, motorcycle, car, dog, skateboarder, runner, or a pothole. Yeah, driving requires we deal with it many times on our commute. Having to deal with hazards all the time doesn't change the fact that there are hazards on the road. You can't logically argue that.

    When something is a hazard that means it's inherently dangerous. I would call riding a bicycle on a road at 20 mph while people driving 3000# to 6000# vehicles within 3' of them and at twice their speed dangerous. Apparently, you don't think it is.

    I was just over the weekend listening to someone joking about slow drivers and how in many states, AZ is one of them, if there are more than 5 vehicles lined up behind you because you are moving so slow you are REQUIRED to pull over and let people pass. I wonder why that's not required of bicycles? They are "supposed" to follow all the same rules of the road that automobiles have to, right?

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Yeah, we're simply not gonna agree. You go ahead and ride your bike on the streets and pretend you're not in the way of EVERY vehicle on the road (assuming there's no bike lane). It's absolutely your right to do so and I will gladly sit patiently behind and wait for the opportunity to pass and give you a nod when I do. But I guarantee you are in the minority in thinking you aren't in the way and a hazard (again, assuming there is not bike lane). People don't honk and yell and throw sh|t at you because they wanna make friends.

    The bottom line is anything taking up a lane of traffic that is moving slower than the majority of traffic is a hazard. Period. Doesn't matter if it's a bike, motorcycle, car, dog, skateboarder, runner, or a pothole. Yeah, driving requires we deal with it many times on our commute. Having to deal with hazards all the time doesn't change the fact that there are hazards on the road. You can't logically argue that.

    When something is a hazard that means it's inherently dangerous. I would call riding a bicycle on a road at 20 mph while people driving 3000# to 6000# vehicles within 3' of them and at twice their speed dangerous. Apparently, you don't think it is.

    I was just over the weekend listening to someone joking about slow drivers and how in many states, AZ is one of them, if there are more than 5 vehicles lined up behind you because you are moving so slow you are REQUIRED to pull over and let people pass. I wonder why that's not required of bicycles? They are "supposed" to follow all the same rules of the road that automobiles have to, right?
    You aren't really addressing the issue that motorcycles are more dangerous than bicycles despite their ability to "flow" with traffic. Statistics show that the main danger to both is not getting hit from behind. However, you did a nice job of falsely quoting me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    You aren't really addressing the issue that motorcycles are more dangerous than bicycles despite their ability to "flow" with traffic. Statistics show that the main danger to both is not getting hit from behind.
    Even IF motorcycles are more dangerous, which I don't believe, I simply don't care. You feel free to try to prove it but I couldn't care less. I know my motorcycle is dangerous. I know I could be gone in an instant. Just like you on your bicycle. They are BOTH dangerous but only one is a hazard. That's what matters TO ME. I choose to NOT be a hazard because I feel being the hazard on the road is what makes it dangerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    Even IF motorcycles are more dangerous, which I don't believe, I simply don't care. You feel free to try to prove it but I couldn't care less. I know my motorcycle is dangerous. I know I could be gone in an instant. Just like you on your bicycle. They are BOTH dangerous but only one is a hazard. That's what matters TO ME. I choose to NOT be a hazard because I feel being the hazard on the road is what makes it dangerous.
    bigOmike
    Being a MC and bike rider I would say that your Moto or bike is not dangerous, it's how you ride it and the lack of your protection which could make it dangerous to ride. If you ride safe and everyone around you does the same there's fun and enjoyment to be had. I sold my moto's since I rode like a nut at times and have lost friends on them, all due to someone else not the rider.
    Enjoy both but just be as careful as you can so you can do it again the next week
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtrider127 View Post
    I would say that your Moto or bike is not dangerous, it's how you ride it and the lack of your protection which could make it dangerous to ride. If you ride safe and everyone around you does the same there's fun and enjoyment to be had. I sold my moto's since I rode like a nut at times and have lost friends on them, all due to someone else not the rider.
    I would counter that it's not as much HOW you ride but your absolute reliance on everyone else to be competent at driving and to actually care about your welfare. My experience says that your average driver possesses neither of those traits.

    I don't feel terribly unsafe on my motorcycle because my 30 miles each way to work is about 24 to 25 freeway miles. Safest place to be.

    On a bicycle I simple don't care for riding pavement. Never been so bored in my life as pedaling on asphalt. But, people enjoy it somehow. They can have all the "fun" they want on those rides. Not me...

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by big0mike View Post
    They are BOTH dangerous but only one is a hazard.
    Actually, following your chain of thought, they are both "hazards" because they are both harder to see than autos and are thus both inherently dangerous. A fast moving vehicle that is harder to see than cars is quite the hazard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir View Post
    Actually, following your chain of thought, they are both "hazards" because they are both harder to see than autos and are thus both inherently dangerous. A fast moving vehicle that is harder to see than cars is quite the hazard.
    I'll concede that they both are POTENTIAL hazards due to their size. But lets look at a typical scenario...

    I am driving my truck down any given 4 lane (2 lanes each way) road. Let's just say there are 60 cars traveling the same direction within the mile in front of me. Everyone is driving roughly the same speed.

    Throw a motorcycle into the mix driving the same speed as everyone else as they are likely to be doing. Only a handful of vehicles are actually going to know he's there so while he could POSSIBLY constitute a hazard he's a hazard for a very small number of vehicles.

    Now throw a bicycle into the mix (still assuming no bike lane) traveling roughly 1/3 the speed of everyone else which they are guaranteed to be doing. Now there are 30 cars (assuming 60 total so 30 in each lane) that are directly behind the bicyclist and have to slow down to accommodate the bike. They may also try to swerve slightly left or completely change lanes to avoid the bike, thus impeding the many of the remaining 30 cars in the second lane.

    Scenario 1: you have a motorcycle that COULD be a hazard to a small number of vehicles.

    Scenario 2: you have a bicycle that is an ABSOLUTE direct hazard to half the vehicles traveling the same direction and a probable hazard to another the other half.

    There's no arguing which is the greater hazard.

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