Leave The Technical Trails Alone!!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    trail "cleaner"
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    Upset Leave The Technical Trails Alone!!

    Once again, the newbies are out to make National trail a paved highway! Rocks are either being stacked and or taken away to make it as easy as possible through the technical sections. If you come across someone "modifying" this trail, please either ask them to stop and send them over to Desert Classic!

  2. #2
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    I noticed that the first steep uphill with the two rock ledges on Mormon had been modified recently, making the right hand side of it a smooth uphill with no 'cleaning' required. These kinda mods piss me off because, being a newbie, I need all the practice I can!

  3. #3
    mr. wonderful
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    Ok, What In The He-double-toothpicks Did They Do Now?!!

  4. #4
    MFC
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    This really sets me off too. I have never understood how someone would have the nerve to modfiy the trail to suit their (lack of) skill level, rather than increase their skill level to ride the trail. They must assume the world revolves around them. I have seen sections that used to be a 10 on the difficulty scale reduced to a 5 by "trail modifiers" . If you can't make a section, keep trying until you can. That's how you improve. Please leave National alone!

  5. #5
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    losers

    This has bugged me for years. I have been attempting to climb National for years. I keep doing it because it is so challenging. I do not understand what these people are thinking. I had also just noticed somebody moved rocks at the beginningof National to make it easier. IF YOU CAN NOT DO IT KEEP TRYING OR RIDE SOMEWHERE ELSE. I have yet cleared everything on National and that is what keeps me excited about it. I think it is good for people to keep posting about it because maybe these people will get the idea. Lets keep this trail the way it is!

  6. #6
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    Increase your skill level, DON'T alter the #%&^@* trail!

    Increase your skill level, DON'T alter the #%&^@* trail! God*&#%&^^ it!!!

    We've seen it in Sedona and Flagstaff also (Rocky Ridge is a disgrace).

    Quote Originally Posted by :funtank
    IF YOU CAN NOT DO IT KEEP TRYING OR RIDE SOMEWHERE ELSE. Lets keep this trail the way it is!
    AMEN! Step UP to the trail, don't bring the trail DOWN to you!

    ATTN: Weak / Unskilled Riders - THIS is how we ALL improved!

    We should all love one another, but man, I will not be nice to anyone caught downgrading a trail.
    Last edited by Rollin'in'Zona; 05-01-2004 at 11:54 PM.

  7. #7
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    Many of you may be confused.

    I've been riding National for about 10 years or so. Most of the altering to make stuff easier is not done by bikers or those with intentions to make the trail easier. I don't know who took the bottom rock out at the beginning of National but I'd be will to bet it wasn't a rider. Most people that are willing to do National are those that ride for the challenge.
    As for the line on Mormon, that thing drifts back and forth across the trail every year or two. Sometimes the trail get harder sometimes it gets easier. Much of the ledge that was in the middle has been broken away from riders grabbing hard on the brakes not those with efforts to sabbotage the trails that we love....of course the big rock in the middle makes a great jump on the way down.
    Many areas have alterations made to allow a more natural flow by individuals that are responsible for making the park as user friendly as possible often seem to be made by riders trying to make the trail easier. Somtimes removing a rock allows people to stay on the trail where they might have tried going around the rock, thus making the trail wider and easier rather than just easier.
    There are many challenges on National that go without notice. Tons of lines over and through rocks that never touch anything other than rock. People tend to watch nothing more than the trail immediately in front of them, at times even a slight angle change can make a section more or less difficult.
    Of course, on the other hand, you do have validity in that the trail has had many of the more prominent features removed.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bugaroo
    I've been riding National for about 10 years or so. Most of the altering to make stuff easier is not done by bikers or those with intentions to make the trail easier. I don't know who took the bottom rock out at the beginning of National but I'd be will to bet it wasn't a rider. Most people that are willing to do National are those that ride for the challenge.
    As for the line on Mormon, that thing drifts back and forth across the trail every year or two. Sometimes the trail get harder sometimes it gets easier. Much of the ledge that was in the middle has been broken away from riders grabbing hard on the brakes not those with efforts to sabbotage the trails that we love....of course the big rock in the middle makes a great jump on the way down.
    Many areas have alterations made to allow a more natural flow by individuals that are responsible for making the park as user friendly as possible often seem to be made by riders trying to make the trail easier. Somtimes removing a rock allows people to stay on the trail where they might have tried going around the rock, thus making the trail wider and easier rather than just easier.
    There are many challenges on National that go without notice. Tons of lines over and through rocks that never touch anything other than rock. People tend to watch nothing more than the trail immediately in front of them, at times even a slight angle change can make a section more or less difficult.
    Of course, on the other hand, you do have validity in that the trail has had many of the more prominent features removed.
    So it sounds like you tried your hardest to disagree with us but, by the end all you did was agree with what we were saying. Man you could of saved yourself a lot of time by just typing, I agree and I think you guys are cool

  9. #9
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    No-I don't completely agree but yes you all are cool.

    My point, though I may not have made it clear, was that most of the sanitizing that was referred to is not done by riders trying to make the trail easier. If I remember right the original post suggested that people were removing obstacles for that reason.
    Keep in mind that these are multi-use trails and that bikers are not the only ones that use them. I, almost daily, see elderly hikers having difficulty walking on many of the sections that we riders love. While I don't like having the obstacles removed, neither do you, it does make sense that as a multi-use trail that some santizing is going to happen.
    I also commented about how there are still many challenging sections that are right on the trail that many people don't notice. Many of the posts that are in response to trail sanitizing state that we riders want more of a challenge. I was trying to point out that there may be many challenges that many of the posting riders don't necessarily notice and with more frequent riding of the trail they may find some new challenges that make the loss of some of the older challenges seem less important.
    I was also trying to point out that many of the obstacles being removed are simply from the demands being put on the trail by frequent use. Many of the sanitizations are a result of people braking hard over a specific section. With time the rocks in those sections start to become loose and start to roll out of their original place. What should be done at that point? Should we leave a large rock in the middle of the trail or should it be pushed off to the side? There used to be a rock the bottom side of what many riders refer to as the Bermuda Triangle. The rock had slowly worked it's way down into the main trail as a result of people hitting it with their front wheels as they were dropping into the section. With time the rock had moved to a point where it blocked the section and even experienced riders could no longer make it. The rock is now blocking a trail, should it be allowed to stay? Many riders would approach the section not knowing or expecting an obstacle to be in the trail where it hadn't been before. They frequently crashed. Bones and bikes were broken. What should happen? The rock was moved. There is currently a large flat rock that is at the lower side of the Bermuda Triangle, while it is not currently a hazard, that probably weighs around 200 pounds. That rock has moved atleast two feet over the last two years from people hitting it with their front tires. Soon the rock will be blocking the main trail. Should the trail be diverted? Should we now start having people going around the rock making the trail wider? The rangers that manage the park have to make those decisions.
    I believe the rock at the bottom of the National was slowly pulled from its place from the results of people hitting the rock on the way down. I distinctly remember seeing erosion developing for a couple weeks before the rock was removed. I think most riders and users would not want an un-lodged rock sitting in the middle of that section. While I wish the rock was still there, it isn't. If you want that section to be more challenging I recommend trying to go up the larger rock on the left rather than taking the weaving line to the side. If riders want more of a challenge on the way down they could try doing a wheelie drop of the big flat rock on the left side of that same section.
    There are many parts of National that are currently rideable that didn't use to be. Most riders do want a trail that flows and appreciate what the trail offers. Sanitizing has made that possible.
    While I don't like sanitation that is done for the sole purpose of making the trail easier I do understand that we are part of a user group that appreciates different aspects of what the trail has to offer. Please understand that my comments are not an arguement for the sanitizing but I believe that it should be recognized that much of what people perceive as the reason for sanitizing may not be understood. I share the same frustrations as the rest of you as I want the trail to be as difficult as possible.
    I appreciate any rider who enjoys riding National as they share the same passion that I do.

  10. #10
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    sounds like you might be the culprit up to no good. Yes there are many elderly hikers up there that have problems hiking, but you can not honestly believe they are the ones moving rocks. Also I know of plenty of stuff to ride out there off the trail that is very technical and "SECRET" but that starts a whole new argument.

  11. #11
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    Excuse me!

    My points are valid....it does not matter if you agree with them or not.
    I did not suggest that the elderly are moving the rocks. I suggested that National is a multi-use trail and that there are those out they who's jobs it is to make sure the trail is as good for those people as it is for bikers.
    I also suggested that much of the sanitizing is a result of frequent use.
    I can't understand why I'm "the culprit" because I offer an opinion. If you knew me you would understand that I'm anything but the person who wants to make National easier.

  12. #12
    Just another half mile...
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    National will always be in a constant state of change due to the pounding it gets day after day from users and then there's mother nature which can really change the conditions of the trails after a huge monsoon cloud burst. Just get on your bikes and ride and stop your whinning. There are several other trails in the area that are much more difficult than National. Try Goat Canyon in the White Tanks and the trails around Seven Springs. If you like techncial trails they will put a BIG Smile on your face or make you cry.


    Quote Originally Posted by bugaroo
    My points are valid....it does not matter if you agree with them or not.
    I did not suggest that the elderly are moving the rocks. I suggested that National is a multi-use trail and that there are those out they who's jobs it is to make sure the trail is as good for those people as it is for bikers.
    I also suggested that much of the sanitizing is a result of frequent use.
    I can't understand why I'm "the culprit" because I offer an opinion. If you knew me you would understand that I'm anything but the person who wants to make National easier.

  13. #13
    Downhill XC rider from AZ
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    I've got to agree (mostly) with bugaroo.

    I've been riding at South Mountain for about 8 years now and I've never seen any biker modifying trails to make the easier. Carving new boot leg trails, yes. Park Rangers with bobcats moving rocks and flatening trails(most recently Desert classic and bottom of National), yes. Horses kicking rocks off trails and crushing the remains into powder, yes. Dh'ers on 45lb rigs bulldozing rocks off trails and crushing outcroppings, yes. Riders with shovels changing trails, never. I repeat never.

    Railing against the heavens in a biking forum is counter productive, Anyone who hasn't actually seen someone doing this you has no business posting a hostile message to a public forum. A much better message would be "have you seen anyone modifing the national trail" or "what's up with the national trail?" or "I've noticed the national trail getting easier". If you have seen it, yell at the people committing the damage, not the universe in general.

    Trails always change as they are used. Aggregrate rock breaks down into sand and gravel. Sand and gravel gets washed away by rain. Rocks get dislodged by riders, hikers, horses and occasionally Rangers. Dirt gets moved and exposes new rocks. Flat trails develop whoops and washboards as vehicles with suspensions drive them. Trails erode as water runs across them.

    I sometimes ride Mormon to National from the Guadalupe entrance to the Hidden valley overlook or visa versa on an XC race bike. 99% of the stuff I can clean, the rest I walk. It's a challenge and I enjoy it.

  14. #14
    Pivoteer
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    ... and if we just ... want to make it more challenging, why not try...

    ...riding it on a Single Speed !! National on a SS is very tough and exciting.

    I have to agree with Bugaroo that I have never seen a biker altering a trail. But I have seen with my very own eyes Park Rangers altering the trails at the base of Mormon and National. When asked why they were doing this I was told by the ranger that it would make it "less dangerous" for all users. The park cannot be responsible for a hiker (or any user) that falls and breaks their ankle.

    If the park feels it is necessary to modify the trails to keep them open, then so be it. I don't necessary like the changes like the rest of you, but if changes have to be made to keep the trails open then so be it. Modified trails are better than no trails.

    Lets not complain about what we have and be happy instead. Do you guys realize that IMBA has ranked Arizona as the #1 poroactive MTB State? The state does more for mountain biking than anyone. WE all need to stick together as bikers. All of the XC vs. Freeride, SS vs. gearies, bikers vs. hikers has to stop. If not, one day we have nothing, and that will truly suck.

    By the way, my name is Brandon and I ride a Single Speed

    Thanks for listening, Arizona mountain biking rulz, lets keep it that way

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