"Land Managers Forced to Decide"- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    "Land Managers Forced to Decide"

    I hope that your Arizona riding season is filled with fun. I rarely look and post here anymore, but thought that these two observations may gather one or two words of discussion... HI ROCKMAN!

    As the line in the upcoming High Country News article (July 20) about: "This year's theme: The Incredible Shrinking West -- how a surge in recreation on public lands has crowded the backcountry and forced land managers to pick winners and losers. Will feature a story by Sara Tory on mountain biking factions fighting over public lands near Sedona, AZ, and a piece from another writer about the risky behavior backcountry skiers engage in on avalanche prone slopes despite training. Will also have some lighter fare."

    This is just my guess about how the article will be framed. That infighting and egos and a few angry letters to the USFS that makes MTB riders look like spoiled kids, not to be trusted, etc. They built trails under the cover of darkness and then left town. How can we the public be trusting "those" mountain bikers to be the ones to build more trails? Is Ms. Tory a rider herself? Will riders be framed in a neutral tone? And now that several planning processes are done and finished, several trails are adopted in and the Sedona area is being hit hard with visiting riders, trail funding is low, and hikers outnumber bikers 50:1, few riders are stepping up to take care of what was built. blah, blah, blah.

    Second is trail development I have been witnessing in the Mt. Elden area...

    Not by bikers but by people getting out to run and walk up the old Lost Burrito, then top out in the meadow of dry lake hills, then turn down the social trail just north of LB. Few tools and even less planning for long term use. I notice that one or two riders attempt the downhillline but both "trails" are very fall line and not bike friendly. Thing is, this is now a real trail, on USFS land, ignored by them, and very prone to erosion. Just more shit trails for us to "enjoy". Too bad, because there is a really fun, downhillish line possibility that could be built by a few interested souls... Its just a bad use of really good real estate for a one direction bike classic trail.

    Life goes on. I wonder how the next generation of MTB riders will create and maintain trails in Northern Arizona? As it exists in the social world of trail development, just the simple fact that many more feet are out in the Flagstaff woods, having fun going up and down the hills, with no idea that trails can be art as well as a workout.
    There is a big difference between ripping and skidding.

  2. #2
    My other ride is your mom
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    Please send a link...on first look online I could not find anything....I'm also interested in the piece about backcountry skiers




  3. #3
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    Here is the link. not a story but a chance to advertise. https://www.hcn.org/advertising/or-lp
    There is a big difference between ripping and skidding.

  4. #4
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    re: Mt Elden/Dry Lake hills trails...

    Been hiking, trail running, climbing, and MTBing in Flag for two years now. Recently took a short vacation over winter down to Tuscon and did some hiking in the Mt Lemmon area. WOW, I was blown away by how well organized the trail system is there. Clearly marked trailheads with toilets, trail maps posters that actually make sense and show trails around you, clearly marked trail intersections, etc. Why can't the Coconino FS figure this out?

    What we have in Flag is a cluster**** of poorly designated parking areas (the Y for instance) and a jumble of official and unofficial trails that are poorly marked (if at all) all around the Elden/Dry lake hills area. Maps at the "trailhead" show nothing but a giant overview of all of Flagstaff. Even the FUTS system maps are terrible and every FUTS trail is called "FUTS Trail" with no designation at intersections of where you are headed or will end up. If you live here you end up figuring it out because it's not a huge system but if you just visit for a hike, run, or ride, expect lots of head scratching and backtracking.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chalkpaw View Post
    Here is the link. not a story but a chance to advertise. https://www.hcn.org/advertising/or-lp
    How can you quote from the article if you don't actually have the article or a link to it?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    How can you quote from the article if you don't actually have the article or a link to it?
    it doesn't appear that he has actually quoted anything from the article, just an ad for the upcoming article and his speculation as to its' contents...

  7. #7
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    Well, I guess we have to wait until July 20th to find out. Blah blah blah.

  8. #8
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Well, I guess we have to wait until July 20th to find out. Blah blah blah.
    Well, there is the issue. One can wait and see.


    Or, would a progressive bicycle advocacy group "advertise" in the publication as bicycling as a legitimate activity to do?
    There is a big difference between ripping and skidding.

  10. #10
    slower than you
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmctav23 View Post
    re: Mt Elden/Dry Lake hills trails...

    What we have in Flag is a cluster**** of poorly designated parking areas (the Y for instance)
    fYi: "the Y" parking area is improvised and located on private property.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
    http://rockychrysler.com/

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler View Post
    fYi: "the Y" parking area is improvised and located on private property.
    Yes, nice of the guy up the street to let everyone park there. The parcel to the east where the old golf course is located is owned by the city and they will sell it to the highest bidder if they can get away with it. The FS should buy it and build a trailhead with restrooms but that's not how they operate. The place is a fecal coliform cesspool.

  12. #12
    The .05 percent
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    Our trail network is shit right now. Sunset is horrible, little bear is gone. We have amazing, progressive social trails that have gone to waste due to not being maintained. Starting to think the Sedona model of asking for trail adoption rather than reinventing the trail network aka dlh proposal, Is the way to go.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Our trail network is shit right now. Sunset is horrible, little bear is gone. We have amazing, progressive social trails that have gone to waste due to not being maintained. Starting to think the Sedona model of asking for trail adoption rather than reinventing the trail network aka dlh proposal, Is the way to go.
    Therein highlights the distinct different between land management in Flagstaff versus Sedona (ie., getting back to Chalkpaw's reason for posting this thread, I'm still confused).

    Flagstaff. Peaks District. Ranger that get's to decide is afraid and goes by the book. NEPA compliance, EIS, and EAs.
    -preliminary scoping
    -meetings
    -talk some more
    -release a Proposed Action
    -comment period
    -Alternatives released
    -more comments
    -Final Proposed Action. More meetings
    -Appeals
    -Hire an Appeals Litigatioon Coordinator
    -Litigate
    -Move forward unless there is an injunction
    -FINAL DECISION


    Sedona. Red Rock District. Ranger that get's to decide is more open minded with the realization that things need to get done now. Not afraid to act.
    -Meetings
    -Existing trails adopted through CE, Categorical Exclusion
    -Some trails are closed

    THE DIFFERENCE? The Land Manger get's to decide. As far as I can tell, we don't. Sedona has problems like Oak Creek siltation and watershed quality and archeological site concerns. Flagstaff is all about the OWLS. That means "Endangered Species Act", a very powerful and often mis-used piece of congressional legislation.

    Nothing is going to happen in Flagstaff for years. That's my glass half empty POV buty hey I got run over yesterday on Schultz by guys in full face helmets so what do I know. User conflict, bleh.

  14. #14
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    "Ride it before they pave it"

    Urban Yeti.....
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

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  15. #15
    dirt visionary
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    I still don't get the whole shuttling/DHing schultz guess I'm old school if it can be pedaled F the shuttle and big gear .
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  16. #16
    My other ride is your mom
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    People who shuttle Schultz are weaksauce....srsly....SRSLY....it's as bad as the Strava Lycra tool who mowed my 3-month experienced rider sweetie over on a Ft Valley trail....if I only had a rubber hose

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    People who shuttle Schultz are weaksauce....srsly....SRSLY....it's as bad as the Strava Lycra tool who mowed my 3-month experienced rider sweetie over on a Ft Valley trail....if I only had a rubber hose
    That about as irresponsible as riding a green horse among other users; give yourself a couple hose strokes.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=Mrwhlr;11955432]That about as irresponsible as riding a green horse among other users; give yourself a couple hose strokes.[/QUOTE

    hose stroke stoke... epic..

  19. #19
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    I still don't get the whole shuttling/DHing schultz guess I'm old school if it can be pedaled F the shuttle and big gear .
    i shuttled it with a 7yo. Does that count?
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
    Our Preserve, Our Taxes, Our Vote

  20. #20
    My other ride is your mom
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    You're core-ness ceased to be years ago....as for Mr Whlr....one knows a lot about hose/horse stroking who talks it....."out damn spot" says the Whlr after taking a blast in the arse from a hefty steed....

  21. #21
    The .05 percent
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Therein highlights the distinct different between land management in Flagstaff versus Sedona (ie., getting back to Chalkpaw's reason for posting this thread, I'm still confused).

    Flagstaff. Peaks District. Ranger that get's to decide is afraid and goes by the book. NEPA compliance, EIS, and EAs.
    -preliminary scoping
    -meetings
    -talk some more
    -release a Proposed Action
    -comment period
    -Alternatives released
    -more comments
    -Final Proposed Action. More meetings
    -Appeals
    -Hire an Appeals Litigatioon Coordinator
    -Litigate
    -Move forward unless there is an injunction
    -FINAL DECISION


    Sedona. Red Rock District. Ranger that get's to decide is more open minded with the realization that things need to get done now. Not afraid to act.
    -Meetings
    -Existing trails adopted through CE, Categorical Exclusion
    -Some trails are closed

    THE DIFFERENCE? The Land Manger get's to decide. As far as I can tell, we don't. Sedona has problems like Oak Creek siltation and watershed quality and archeological site concerns. Flagstaff is all about the OWLS. That means "Endangered Species Act", a very powerful and often mis-used piece of congressional legislation.

    Nothing is going to happen in Flagstaff for years. That's my glass half empty POV buty hey I got run over yesterday on Schultz by guys in full face helmets so what do I know. User conflict, bleh.
    I just hope Snowbowl steps up to the plate. I could use something new to ride and I honestly believe this will happen before any rerouting or rebuilding of trails on the Mount Elden or Lake Hills area. at least that will help eradicate user conflicts with guys and full face helmets on Schultz Creek.

  22. #22
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    MEDL is happening. It's just been delayed by the thinning projects. I actually rode the chairlift with the Peaks wildlife biologist this past winter and she told me that the Reserves got the green light. I'm also getting the feeling that the thinning on Elden DLH areas is going to be getting scaled back from some of the original ideas. It's likely that there will be much more hand thinning which could work well with rerouting the whole system and creating new trails.

    How long until it moves forward? Who knows, but it is happening. We will have a better idea of things hopefully this fall.

    I'm in agreement with Chalkpaw, we are seeing more trails pop up and they are more of the same old fall line poorly built trails, it's what I would call the opposite of progressive. It's a bummer looking at the terrain and seeing the potential but instead of what could be there is just another fall line scar on one of my most favorite places to play and enjoy.

  23. #23
    dirt visionary
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    i shuttled it with a 7yo. Does that count?
    Thats different and approved
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  24. #24
    The .05 percent
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    MEDL is happening. It's just been delayed by the thinning projects. I actually rode the chairlift with the Peaks wildlife biologist this past winter and she told me that the Reserves got the green light. I'm also getting the feeling that the thinning on Elden DLH areas is going to be getting scaled back from some of the original ideas. It's likely that there will be much more hand thinning which could work well with rerouting the whole system and creating new trails.

    How long until it moves forward? Who knows, but it is happening. We will have a better idea of things hopefully this fall.

    I'm in agreement with Chalkpaw, we are seeing more trails pop up and they are more of the same old fall line poorly built trails, it's what I would call the opposite of progressive. It's a bummer looking at the terrain and seeing the potential but instead of what could be there is just another fall line scar on one of my most favorite places to play and enjoy.
    I will believe this as soon as the pick hits the dirt.you know as well as I do if we had just adopted stuff per Sedona's model he be riding all kinds of good new trails right now rather than sitting around waiting for bureaucracy to take its course.I'm just waiting for the second round of public comments and alternative to be presented.

  25. #25
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    Yup, confusing

    I'm sorry that my writing skills still suck at least 3 days a week. I re-read the post and it is confusing. The stuff about sedona was the main point. We are about to see a big thrust of a story presented to 53,000 viewers and given out for free at this years outdoor trade show in August to people in the industry which creates a viewpoint by the conservation press (nothing wrong with that), about their view on recreation on public land (which they do every year). People who use trails will have a take home message. This year its about our home trails, Sedona, and the bikers who have tried to make change happen in different ways. Here is an opportunity in the form of advertising to paint mtb riding in a good light no matter what the line of the story is because for once, we are paddling before the wave breaks. We can ride the tube! Its a win-win (sort of). Let's say that VVCC and/or IMBA ( or a passionate riding individual)produces a positive photo and word mtb message in a half or full page ad? This would be a classic supportive move. Say the HCN article is a negative tone to riders? The ad would balance the message that riders are jerks by having that great image of a kid and dad smiling on the trail. YES! Now say the article paints a positive light on the bicycle trail development to date? That same ad would show that the advocacy group really has their ducks in a row. Conservation, recreation and mtb go hand in hand. They build trails and get kids out enjoying nature. YES,YES. No anti-mtb group can really say anything bad about that?

    The other piece about flag trails was really confusing, should have been better written and should have been a separate topic? I had to throw it in because it shows in a way how trails get built in Flag. Just get out and scratch it in. USe a boot, a dog, or a reason to burn energy after a crappy day at work. I walk up and down hills almost every day. Pretty soon there will be a trail that others will find. And I have found several sucky ones that are there...

    And reader, I know what a few of you are thinking... If I'm so interested in this, why don't I make the ad, and buy the space? Put money where my mtbr mouth is? Reason; my heart in not in mtb as it was a couple of years ago. I have already put too much time into this post... its time to move on. Best of luck y'all. Keep the rubber side down on our aging northern arizona trails, they are getting hammered.
    There is a big difference between ripping and skidding.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork View Post
    I still don't get the whole shuttling/DHing schultz guess I'm old school if it can be pedaled F the shuttle and big gear .
    Agreed!
    Bender to AZDog: I'm not the best person to give advice on not riding!

  27. #27
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    Chalkpaw, I still don't understand what your are suggesting. I'm not sure the audience in High Country News is the one we (as mtbrs) are trying to reach.

    If I'm reading you correctly, you are dancing around the bigger picture issue of whether or not mountain biking as an activity, or user-group, is on equal footing with other user groups on public lands. Which we all know it is not. So, how to reach the folks (ie., Sierra Club, land managers, etc) to gain recognition as well as acceptance that mountain biking is on equal footing and should be managed as such.

    In the case of Sedona 80% of the use is the hiking community on trails primarily built by mountain bikers. What am I missing?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 50cents View Post
    I look FORWARD to the time that the MEDL trail system is completed, by then I will have a doctors prescription for a nice state of the art Ebike and I can climb up all the new access trails or roads to ride the really cool trails that will be built by the FS (?) or Gravity Riders.
    Completed? HA! That might take a while 50!

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