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  1. #1
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    How in the heck? Minion tubeless users...

    Got my new 2.5 wire bead Minions today (non ust). Threw them on my 819 and so far have had zero success airing them up. I know lots of you guys run these things tubeless on Mavic ust rims. What's the secret?

    I've used soapy water and 90psi and these things are not even close to airing up. Right now I aired them up with a tube. Figure I'd let that sit a day or two and try again.

    Any suggestions?
    Thanks

  2. #2
    My other ride is your mom
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    Stupid question....but did you have other tires on those 819's in a tubeless fashion and they were fine?




  3. #3
    Shred...it's the new drug
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    mine went in like butter with a floor pump. did you add a little stans or similar sauce? try pulling on the side walls to make contact with the rim. I was suprised how easy it was to seat mine up to my 823's...

  4. #4
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    Never had a problem getting Minions to air up, even with a floor pump.
    You have to use Stan's.
    Make sure that you rotate the wheel to make sure that the sealant covers everything.

  5. #5
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    Have you tried using a compressor?

  6. #6
    Shred...it's the new drug
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrEVS
    Have you tried using a compressor?
    that dudes got a killer floor pump if he's getting 90 psi from it...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by latedropbob
    that dudes got a killer floor pump if he's getting 90 psi from it...
    For sure - but volume is the key for seating a stubborn bead, not pressure. At least in my experience...

  8. #8
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    Use a ghetto strip.

    I ran lots of standard tires set up tubeless on my Mavic Crossmax SL rims but I always used a sealing strip. By this, I mean I used a split tube, just like a regular ghetto tubeless setup.

    The reason is that standard tires were never meant to seal tubeless to a standard rim, or to a UST rim. Sometimes a standard tire will make a seal to a UST rim, but it is a crapshoot, and you very much risk a nasty burp. UST rims were made to seal to UST tires, not to standard tires. Not like a Stans rim is made to work with standard tires. A split tube will ensure that the standard tire makes an excellent seal to the bead, and drastically reduce the chance of a crash inducing burp. I have searched many, many threads on different forms of tubeless and an often recurring theme is a standard tire burping when used without any kind of sealing aid on a UST rim.

    I ran Rampages at 28psi on my Crossmax rims with a ghetto strip, and never had even one burp. And every tire I set up this way aired up really easy. It is well worth a $3 tube. I did this setup because standard tires were cheaper, and more available, and it allowed for low pressure, and for cactus and thorn resistance.

  9. #9
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    try taking the core out of the stem and doing it that way with an air compressor. We did that with my brothers ghetto setup(no same wheels or tires) when he had a difficult tire to bead. Give it a good blast and air it up pretty good then cover it with a finger then screw the core back in. Hope you get it!

  10. #10
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    Stupid question....but did you have other tires on those 819's in a tubeless fashion and they were fine?
    I've always ran UST tires...no problems.

    I am using a compressor. Not sure if the valve core comes out of the Mavic ust valve stem.

    I ran lots of standard tires set up tubeless on my Mavic Crossmax SL rims but I always used a sealing strip. By this, I mean I used a split tube, just like a regular ghetto tubeless setup
    Really hoping I don't have to go that route. Kinda defeats the ease of install that comes with ust. I bought these wire bead tires b/c of all the people I have read about using them tubeless with ust rims with no problems. I'll need to experiment more I guess. This is why I have always just used ust tires. So simple.

  11. #11
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    I have the mavic stems and mine have removable cores. also try to push down slightly on the center of the tire as it will put slight outward pressure on the bead.

  12. #12
    mr. wonderful
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPDP99
    try taking the core out of the stem and doing it that way with an air compressor. We did that with my brothers ghetto setup(no same wheels or tires) when he had a difficult tire to bead. Give it a good blast and air it up pretty good then cover it with a finger then screw the core back in. Hope you get it!
    Ditto. Guaranteed success!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPDP99
    I have the mavic stems and mine have removable cores. also try to push down slightly on the center of the tire as it will put slight outward pressure on the bead.
    Mine are a few years old. I think Mavic made a change since then. I'll check it out tomorrow though to be sure.

    I have stupid question: If I use a split tube how do I air up the tire? Cut a hole in the tube around the stem? The tube will cover the stem area. I really really don't want to mess with ghetto style, arrgh I don't like to mess with stuff too much, hence coil forks and UST only since '04.

  14. #14
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    It would appear the valve core is not removable. I think I almost trashed my valve by trying to unscrew the stem. I don't see any other way to go about it.

    I should add that this tire is actually a High Roller, not a Minion.
    Last edited by eatdrinkride; 06-07-2010 at 11:53 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride
    Mine are a few years old. I think Mavic made a change since then. I'll check it out tomorrow though to be sure.

    I have stupid question: If I use a split tube how do I air up the tire? Cut a hole in the tube around the stem? The tube will cover the stem area. I really really don't want to mess with ghetto style, arrgh I don't like to mess with stuff too much, hence coil forks and UST only since '04.
    Simply remove the stem from the rim and use a presta tube. The rim is made so you can do this in case you need to install a tube.

    I will bet that a split tube on there will make it air up really easy., and prevent burps. It is the price you pay to make 2 different beads jive.

    And I only inflate to 35psi. You should not go over 40psi when inflating a ghetto tubeless setup. I never need to go over 35psi anyway, because at that point it is totally air tight.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride
    This is why I have always just used ust tires. So simple.
    +1...learned my lesson long ago on this one, not worth the hassle or frustration.

  17. #17
    mr. wonderful
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyescream
    +1...learned my lesson long ago on this one, not worth the hassle or frustration.
    First it's dirtbagqc. . . and now you. Get your own damn avatar pal!

    @EDR-Get some stems with removable cores and move on with your life You don't need ghetto, you don't need UST, you just need air in your tires.

  18. #18
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    Even if he gets enough air volume to blast the beads out to where they air up, there is more to it than just that.

    A UST rim is designed to fit together with a UST tire and lock in and seal properly. A standard tire is not. It may air up, but it will be MUCH more prone to burp than a UST tire, or a standard tire with a ghetto strip(split tube)

    I did this a lot because I got my rims in 2005 and tubeless selection was crappy, or the prices were ridiculous. But I figured out that the best way to make a standard tire mate well with the UST bead was to just use a split tube. It will air up really easy, and be much more resistant to burping than a standard tire on a UST rim will be if used alone.

    Here is what I do. Put a bit of air in a 20" tube and stretch it on. Should look like you have a road tire on the wheel. Split it down the middle. Wipe off all the powder with a wet rag. Install a bead. Install the other bead, putting in sealant before you finish. Air up to 35psi. Shake sealant around. Pull on excess rubber and trim with exacto. You can't even see it then, and you will have a reliable setup.

    I would rathe spend the extra couple minutes splitting a tube and trimming it, then monkey with a tire that does not want to seat, or risk burping the tire on a bump and crashing. If you are going to use a standard tire on that rim I highly advise you to go this route.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtbag
    First it's dirtbagqc. . . and now you. Get your own damn avatar pal!
    RJ you have always been my idol.

  20. #20
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    I say get some new mavic stems that have the removable cores and try. I am running the high rollers also as well as my brother. Granted they are the 2.35 but that way if you decide to go with UST tires youl have the new stems and can add sealant by removing the core instead of breaking the bead...

  21. #21
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    twowheels and EPD. Thanks for the info. I'll go one of these routes. I may give the new valve stem a try first as that's why I went with a wire bead tire...better reliability and resistance to burping when set up on a ust rim.

    I now see that with a split tube I will be using the tube's valve stem, not my UST valve stem. That really was a stupid question.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride
    twowheels and EPD. Thanks for the info. I'll go one of these routes. I may give the new valve stem a try first as that's why I went with a wire bead tire...better reliability and resistance to burping when set up on a ust rim.

    I now see that with a split tube I will be using the tube's valve stem, not my UST valve stem. That really was a stupid question.
    The wire bead is just less prone to stretching. That is the only real benefit. They are not shaped differently, and won't seal any better than a kevlar bead tire to the rim bead. I used kevlar bead Rampages, Minions, Geax LoboLoco, Geax Dhea etc with no issue as far as the bead stretching. I did not air up to 90psi though!! 35psi only, with a split tube, and a perfect seal every time.

    If the bead of a wire bead tire gets pushed away from the bead of the rim it is just as prone to burp as a kevlar bead tire. A split tube actually bonds to the tire, and when pushed inward, the seal is maintained.

    I recently took a standard rim with a standard tire that was set up with a split tube, and I clamped the tire in a vice about a quarter of an inch from the rim. I tightened it until the 2 beads were compressed all the way against each other, with no loss of air. Even clamped like this, I pulled the wheel down sideways, and only when I got past 45 degrees did it start to hiss a little, and stopped as soon as I released it and let it back up just a little. No catastrophic loss of pressure ever happened. I seriously doubt that a standard tire with no sealing strip on a UST rim will seal that well

  23. #23
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    I seriously doubt that a standard tire with no sealing strip on a UST rim will seal that well
    I would agree with you except there is a small legion of locals who are running Maxxis tires like this, with no issues. This was the compelling reason to give it a try.

    Anyhow, after removing the tube and leaving the one side beaded up, I was able to inflate the tire. With no sealant I aired it up to maybe 50psi and after 1/2 hour it appeared to loose little to no air at all. GREAT news! However the tire was installed backwards so I reversed it and tried the tube first method again, to seat the beads, then removed it. After 1 hour of farking around I cannot for the life of me get the unseated bead to take.

    I'll probably stop by the shop and pick up a 20 inch tube, only b/c I'm sure a Mavic valve stem is $20 from any lbs around here and it may or may not even work.

  24. #24
    mr. wonderful
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyescream
    RJ you have always been my idol.
    And I never knew. I'm honored

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowheelsdown2002
    I seriously doubt that a standard tire with no sealing strip on a UST rim will seal that well
    i've been running this exact thing for years without issue on 819's with sealant (stans's and hombrew). all maxxis wire bead tires, some DH casing some single ply.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 'size
    i've been running this exact thing for years without issue on 819's with sealant (stans's and hombrew). all maxxis wire bead tires, some DH casing some single ply.
    I'm not saying it never works. Just that it is a bit of a crapshoot, and I don't think it has the same resistance to burps as having a sealing strip.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 'size
    i've been running this exact thing for years without issue on 819's with sealant (stans's and hombrew). all maxxis wire bead tires, some DH casing some single ply.
    And how do you air them up? Compressor? Hand pump? Remove the valve core or no?
    Thanks.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride
    And how do you air them up? Compressor? Hand pump? Remove the valve core or no?
    Thanks.
    for the DH models a floor pump has worked for me but i generally use a compressor, for the single ply's a compressor (i've never tried a floor pump with SP's). i have had some SP's that required the core to be removed and some that didn't and every time i've removed the core it's been 100% the first time, every time.

    i also air them up without sealant first to make sure the bead seats, then inject sealant with the bead seated through the valve w/ the core removed.

  29. #29
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    yes compressor. try without removing the core first. if it doesnt work remove the core and give it a shot. i always have filled mine with sealant in first but dont think it would go a whole lot different if done later. I use homebrew with large glitter so it is kinda a pain to add through the stem. I have never used the soapy water method to help the tire get seated.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtbag
    And I never knew. I'm honored
    Just because I haven't made it out for a ride in a while doesn't mean I don't care...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyescream
    Just because I haven't made it out for a ride in a while doesn't mean I don't care...

    A while?????
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  32. #32
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    Well, I got a new valve stem. Removed the core. Aired it right up without homebrew sealant. Added sealant. Aired up again. Shook, shook, shook, shook. Went to son's baseball game. Came home and found tire completely flat. Arhhg. The weird thing is yesterday it held air without sealant fine for 30 minutes before I deflated it. It's seems to just be a matter of luck.

    Will give it one more go, I doubt my patience will allow for much more before I put a split tube in.

  33. #33
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    did you dunk it under water to make sure it wasnt coming from somewhere else besides the bead? when ever I do mine I spind it and shake it then lay it flat on a 5 gal bucket for 30 mins. then flip, spin shake and let it sit on the other side. I also take the wheel and hit the sidewall on the ground and rotate to make sure the bead seats good. make sure when you tighten the core in you dont go so tight that the stem starts to turn. getting closer!

  34. #34
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    did you dunk it under water to make sure it wasnt coming from somewhere else besides the bead?
    Just did that tonight after re-airing it up. The beads are leaking and some minor leakage is coming from the carcass, which is to be expected for a while. Valve stem is good. My homebrew? Maybe not so good, idk.

  35. #35
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    Try sealing it, and inflating it, and laying it sideways on a 5 gallon bucket for about an hour, then re inflating it and reversing it on the bucket. Works for me. Did you hear the audible ping as the bead seated? Sorry if you already tried this, if so ignore me and I will go away....

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er
    A while?????
    Yeah, apparently so long I have fallen off the invite list, but I am used to that. I don't even know where to find you guys anymore...

  37. #37
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    This story just keeps getting better

    While banging the sidewalls on the concrete my Hope freehub came loose and some small metal part came flying out. Found it, turned out to be a pawl. Only problem is the spring broke. Now I have a Pro2 hub with 3 pawls. I just am having no luck today.

  38. #38
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    did the bead seat?....... Too soon? sorry for the bad luck...

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pwrtrainer
    Did you hear the audible ping as the bead seated? Sorry if you already tried this, if so ignore me and I will go away....
    He is not seating a UST bead. He probably will not get an audible "ping" as the bead seats, because the 2 beads don't jive like if they were both UST, and adding more air to try to get it to seat will probably just blow the tires off.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride
    Just did that tonight after re-airing it up. The beads are leaking and some minor leakage is coming from the carcass, which is to be expected for a while. Valve stem is good. My homebrew? Maybe not so good, idk.
    Your homebrew is probably fine.

    Not to be a broken record, but a split tube will absolutely cure your bead leakage, and give you drastically increased burp protection. Then you can sit the tires on their sides, or just go for a ride, and let the sealant take care of the minor carcass leaks.

  41. #41
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    Some more help tid bits.

    Try heating your tires up before you mount them. Leave then out in the sun for an hour, that makes them more pliable during the mounting process.

    Soapy water, soapy water, soapy water.

    Ensure that the bead is completely/evenly seated on both sides. I think this may be where your probblem is at. If so keep pumping until that bad boy evenly seats.

    Lastly, call Hope directly and ask them to send you replacement pawls and springs. They have pretty good about that in the past.

  42. #42
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    Lastly, call Hope directly and ask them to send you replacement pawls and springs. They have pretty good about that in the past.
    Done. Hope C/S is great. New springs/pawls on the way. NO questions asked. Love that company.

    I see the sealant still making it's way out of the beads. I think my homebrew is lacking in latex or is just too thin. I'll throw it in the sun for a few hours than inflate the crap out of it. I'm about ready to do the split tube thing and be done with it. I've got a bunch of Slime and latex already so I have no desire to go spend another 15 bucks on Stans.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog
    Ensure that the bead is completely/evenly seated on both sides. I think this may be where your probblem is at. If so keep pumping until that bad boy evenly seats.
    He already pumped it to 90psi!!!!

    He is lucky it did not blow off already. A UST bead tire sets into the bead of the rim like 2 pieces of a puzzle. You can't expect a standard tire to sit in place that way. A UST bead pops into place because of the way the 2 beads are made. You may never hear any pop at all inflating a standard bead tire to a UST rim.

    When I use a split tube on a UST rim to use a standard tire, I only inflate to 35psi, and don't even worry about hearing it "pop" into place. The split tube will make the seal. I'm, not having to pump it up for a "pop" that will probably never happen, and should not be expected to happen anyway.

    Look at how Stan's sets up standard tires on his rims, and on regular rims using his rimstrips. He tells you to not exceed 40psi, for good reason. I apply this rule to any standard tire that I convert tubeless.

    Don't try to force two incompatible beads to seat together with more pressure!! If it does not seal with reasonable pressure(under 40spi) than you need a strip to help it seal.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride
    I see the sealant still making it's way out of the beads. I think my homebrew is lacking in latex or is just too thin. . .
    The bead should not even need sealant to make a seal. UST tires do not. "Tubeless Ready" tires do not. UST tires need sealant just for punctures. Tubeless Ready need sealant for the sidewalls, but not the beads.

    When I use a split tube on UST with a standard tire, I do not need sealant for the bead either. The rubber seals it. Like a "Tubeless Ready" tire, I only need sealant for the sidewalls.

    If you are relying on sealant to seal the bead, than you have a poor interface, and one that I would not trust when hitting bumps.

  45. #45
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    I've had much success in this regard. Literally, with those tires and rim, there should be zero problem seating the bead without sealant. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that you got a bad/loose tire.

    Quality control isn't all it's cracked up to be and a couple mm difference in the ID of the tire really matters. The last High Roller I bought (kevlar bead) had this issue.

    If you're near N. Scottsdale, you're welcome to bring it by and I'll help you work on it. Can't say enough about lots of soapy water, removable valve cores and a high-volume air source.

  46. #46
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    The bead should not even need sealant to make a seal. UST tires do not. "Tubeless Ready" tires do not. UST tires need sealant just for punctures. Tubeless Ready need sealant for the sidewalls, but not the beads.
    Maybe I have not been clear so hear goes. This High Roller IS NOT a ust tire. Standard tire being mounted to a UST rim. Perhaps I'm just misreading your intention with the above quote.

    Blatant: Thanks for the offer. I ordered two HR's so maybe I'll try the other one and see how it goes.

  47. #47
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    Yep, try the other one. As I said, my last High Roller was a little loose from the factory. It would seal, but only for a little bit, then roll off the rim under sideload.

    Mount both beads in the rim, liberally soak both beads with soapy water, pull the valve core and hit with the compressor. Should audibly pop the beads into place at roughly 30-40 psi. I typically take it up to 45 or 50, holding my finger over the valve for a minute. I then let the air out, resoap, add goop and hit it with air again. Spin/shake with more soap then lay flat on the bucket.

    It's not unusual for a fresh tire to go flat overnight. If you got a solid lock on the bead, I re-soap and hit it with the air again. Happy to help you out if you get in a jam.

  48. #48
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    well I'm tire shopping now as my 2 year flat streak died today... I got about 1/2" hole in between tread lugs today while I was out. Air it up and sealant held for a bit but was just to big to overcome. The whole time I never had a bead leak seap or burb. Beads are still seated with tire flat and floppy.... Good luck on whatever method you use!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride
    Maybe I have not been clear so hear goes. This High Roller IS NOT a ust tire. Standard tire being mounted to a UST rim. Perhaps I'm just misreading your intention with the above quote..
    Yes, you are. I am completely clear that you are NOT using a UST tire.

    What I am trying to make clear is that with a UST tire, sometimes you need to use more pressure to seat the bead into place. But you are NOT seating a UST bead into place, so more pressure is not a proper cure to the problem.

    The point I am trying to make is that in virtually all of the reliable tubeless setups out there, NONE of them rely on sealant to make the seal at the bead.

    UST and Tubeless Ready rely on the shape of the tire and rim bead to seal. Not on the sealant.

    Stan's Flow and ZTR rims rely on the shape of the rim to fit a standard tire, and the yellow tape to seal. Not on his sealant.

    You fitting your standard tire on a UST rim should also NOT be relying on sealant to make the seal.

    If you are having to rely on sealant to make the tire seal at the bead, then you have an interface there that IMO is not all that reliable. Do you want to hit a bump, roll the tire slightly away from the bead and rely on sealant to somehow get there and keep it from burping? It may be too late by then, and you may be on the ground.

    This is why I think that you should have a rubber strip there, so that you have a mechanism in place that makes the seal, and keeps the seal, without relying on some liquid sealant floating around to seal the bead. Let it do what it is meant to do, which is seal the pores in the tire, and seal thorn holes.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant
    I've had much success in this regard. Literally, with those tires and rim, there should be zero problem seating the bead without sealant. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that you got a bad/loose tire.

    Quality control isn't all it's cracked up to be and a couple mm difference in the ID of the tire really matters. The last High Roller I bought (kevlar bead) had this issue.

    If you're near N. Scottsdale, you're welcome to bring it by and I'll help you work on it. Can't say enough about lots of soapy water, removable valve cores and a high-volume air source.
    Yes sir, High Volume Air .Blatant is correct.--
    I have assembled this same set up for many people and they have ran this with no problems .

    Soapy water and real air volume and presto , all seated

  51. #51
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    Well, having a missing spring gave me the excuse to finally have my wheel rebuilt. It's been trashed for a while, always breaking spokes and loosing tension. Took the hub to Peter at Rage for a new wheel build and what do you know, they have small Hope hub parts just laying around. Gotta love that shop! Had I known anyone locally might have such stuff I wouldn't have bothered to call Hope USA. Oh, well, they are sending an entire kit for free.

    I'll give the tire mount another try when I get the wheel back. Till then...

  52. #52
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    Update...

    For those who care...

    Got my new 819 from Rage yesterday and mounted up the HR. Snap! Bead seated with no issues without even removing the valve core. Let it sit for a while and checked it in the tub. As expected it was leaking from the bead and carcass. Installed a split tube and aired it up. It held air for the same amount of time and the bead leaked just the same as before. Next up, 2oz of Stans and 2oz of homebrew added. After several hours of letting the tire sit on it's sides, 95% of the leaking has been sealed. Success!

    Anyhow my old rim may have been part of the problem. I'm not sorry I used a split tube as it should aid in tire burping but I'm pretty confident the bead would have sealed just as well without it. It was as difficult as any bead to pop off when I removed the tire the first time.

    Got my new (longer) bar and shorter stem today also so I'm "ret-to-go". Mostly, I'm stoked to get rid of that DHEA and move on

  53. #53
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    I just got the DHF minion for mine and bam it snapped on without any issues on my x-430 standards setup ghetto. Mine took some work getting the high roller off the bead so I could move it to the back tire. It actually held suction from pushing the air out and had to physically push like hell to break the bead. Glad you got it!!

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by EPDP99
    I just got the DHF minion for mine and bam it snapped on without any issues !
    Curious, dual ply or no? Wire bead or Kevlar?

  55. #55
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    wirebead, not sure if it was a dual ply. standard tire DHF in 2.35 super tacky.

  56. #56
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    Don''t mean to rub salt in a wound but I just seated 2 new single ply minion's to a pair of mavic 729 using 20" bmx tubes no stans and a hand pump . Took a few mins on each one to get it to start to fill but they did. So far I have never had an issue and have used a handpump numerous times on revolution 32's, deemax , sun single track, sos rims and dt swiss x430's
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of
    arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by clockwork
    Don''t mean to rub salt in a wound but I just seated 2 new single ply minion's to a pair of mavic 729 using 20" bmx tubes
    I'm sure I could have used a hand pump this go around, since I had the split tube thing going. Just never occurred to me to even try since I do own an air compressor.

    It's all good now though.

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