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  1. #1
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    Have You Ridden the New Improved Munds Wagon Trail Uphill?

    I went out today and looked at the new trail improvement on Munds Wagon Wheel. I am curious as to whether there are any viewers who can make the climb?

    TD

  2. #2
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    While I was out on Munds yesterday a really good rider was riding up the trail. It was the first time he had ever ridden the trail and on his first attempt up the STEEP newly improved section he only made it up about 50% of the climb.

    After he stopped I asked him where he was going, he said Hangover? I told him based on his skill level climbing the trail he ought to reconsider trying to ride Hangover. Boy did that motivate him. He rode down to the bottom and turned around and ripped up the climb to the top stupid STEP section where he came to an instant stop after almost falling off the side of the trail.

    I told him he was definitely qualified to ride Hangover and that he didn't have to worry about any stupid steps while riding that trail. Why CREC made a really nice trail improvement to 90% of the STEEP climb and didn't continue with the same fix to the top is my question for the day?

    TD

  3. #3
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    I bet that would make a sweet launcher going the other direction.

  4. #4
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    TD

    TD

    TD

    Did you show this post to your wife? What does she think about this? Approve?

    .......

    TD


    TD......TD

    ..TD

    T...........................D

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker
    I bet that would make a sweet launcher going the other direction.
    A true downhiller would never do that

  6. #6
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    How many pages of bickering will this thread have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    While I was out on Munds yesterday a really good rider was riding up the trail. It was the first time he had ever ridden the trail and on his first attempt up the STEEP newly improved section he only made it up about 50% of the climb.

    After he stopped I asked him where he was going, he said Hangover? I told him based on his skill level climbing the trail he ought to reconsider trying to ride Hangover. Boy did that motivate him. He rode down to the bottom and turned around and ripped up the climb to the top stupid STEP section where he came to an instant stop after almost falling off the side of the trail.

    I told him he was definitely qualified to ride Hangover and that he didn't have to worry about any stupid steps while riding that trail. Why CREC made a really nice trail improvement to 90% of the STEEP climb and didn't continue with the same fix to the top is my question for the day?

    TD
    do you have a photo of where he got stuck at? there was a step we left on the top that was already there. the upper half of that section is also much steep than the lower...
    Professional Trail Builder and Guvmint Employee

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajmelin
    How many pages of bickering will this thread have?
    Im not sure there will be too much bickering. Its obvious from the last several threads on similar topics that because TD and one other guy cant ride a particular section of the trail, the "masses" will not be able to ride it either and therefore TD will speak on the "majorities" behalf and change the trail as he sees fit. This is ok by me because since I dont have a comprehensive resume of trail building its clear Im not qualified to argue otherwise or even give an opinion. No worries.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1
    Im not sure there will be too much bickering. Its obvious from the last several threads on similar topics that because TD and one other guy cant ride a particular section of the trail, the "masses" will not be able to ride it either and therefore TD will speak on the "majorities" behalf and change the trail as he sees fit. This is ok by me because since I dont have a comprehensive resume of trail building its clear Im not qualified to argue otherwise or even give an opinion. No worries.
    Dooger:

    That was a great post and you are keeeereck.

    Justin the two steps were near the top. I assume you left them because you had used up all your time on the project. The lower section rides nicely and it would be nice to complete the fix all the way to the top. I am sure if you had more money you would have made the that section ADA approved.

    Hopefully I will be successful in dumbing it down to my skill level. Since no one has admitted to being able to ride the current fix I am assuming it is not rideable now.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Hopefully I will be successful in dumbing it down to my skill level. Since no one has admitted to being able to ride the current fix I am assuming it is not rideable now.

    TD
    Oooh, oooh, oooh... TD, TD... my hand is up, my hand is up!!!

    Can I try and ride it?

    If I clean it, will that save it? What if I clean everything you want to tear out, will I save those as well?

    Ooohhh pleeeeease let me try.

    Just keep pedaling...

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elvota
    Oooh, oooh, oooh... TD, TD... my hand is up, my hand is up!!!

    Can I try and ride it?

    If I clean it, will that save it? What if I clean everything you want to tear out, will I save those as well?

    Ooohhh pleeeeease let me try.

    Elvota:

    Yes, please ride that section and provide pictures or video of you cleaning it. I appreciate you accepting this challange to save this section for the highly skilled riders like yourself.

    While you are up there get some documentation that you cleaned the right hand turn on the climb up to the Damifino Saddle.

    I was planning on doing the improvement Monday, so get up there before then otherwise it will TOO LATE.

    TD

  12. #12
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    I wish I was this passionate about riding!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Elvota:

    Yes, please ride that section and provide pictures or video of you cleaning it. I appreciate you accepting this challange to save this section for the highly skilled riders like yourself.

    While you are up there get some documentation that you cleaned the right hand turn on the climb up to the Damifino Saddle.

    I was planning on doing the improvement Monday, so get up there before then otherwise it will TOO LATE.

    TD
    Elvota:
    make sure you do at least 50 hours of trail work in 2 hours while you are there or TrailDoc won't accept you or your riding skill because as we all know, what have you done to help mountain bike trail work! We are not worthy!
    "Not drinking is the Single Speed World Championships version of doping" -Jacquie Phelan

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp
    do you have a photo of where he got stuck at? there was a step we left on the top that was already there. the upper half of that section is also much steep than the lower...

    Justin:

    I think you know the spot near the high point of the climb that needs to be improved to allow the masses to ride it. On the out board side is a large piece of rock that needs to be lowered in the front and sloped like the recently added sloped steps.

    Are you interested in helping me improve this project? The FS says they can't lend me their gas powered jack hammer, but if you want to help they will let you bring one in to expedite the improvement.

    TD
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Have You Ridden the New Improved Munds Wagon Trail Uphill?-munds-step-3.jpg  


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    Why do the "masses" have to be able to ride it? Why couldn't it be a feature that test riders of lesser skills so that they improve their skills? I alway's looked at sections of trail that I could not clean as a challenge to improve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Justin:

    I think you know the spot near the high point of the climb that needs to be improved to allow the masses to ride it. On the out board side is a large piece of rock that needs to be lowered in the front and sloped like the recently added sloped steps.

    Are you interested in helping me improve this project? The FS says they can't lend me their gas powered jack hammer, but if you want to help they will let you bring one in to expedite the improvement.

    TD
    It's a bit difficult to read your crayon drawing but it only looks like a 12" step. Are you serious? You need to spend more time riding and less time retarding the trail if you can't make a 1 ft. step. Jackhammer? Really?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker
    It's a bit difficult to read your crayon drawing but it only looks like a 12" step. Are you serious? You need to spend more time riding and less time retarding the trail if you can't make a 1 ft. step. Jackhammer? Really?
    Outside observation, sounds like a spoiled brat. If TD is so concerned about bringing more mountain bikers together. He fails tremendously. He has his core group which will drop to their knees no matter what, and those which he is alienating with his work.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Elvota:

    Yes, please ride that section and provide pictures or video of you cleaning it. I appreciate you accepting this challange to save this section for the highly skilled riders like yourself.

    While you are up there get some documentation that you cleaned the right hand turn on the climb up to the Damifino Saddle.

    I was planning on doing the improvement Monday, so get up there before then otherwise it will TOO LATE.

    TD
    Maybe if you posted some video's of your inability to ride certain sections maybe some of the better riders on the forum could give you some pointers. Just a thought.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    I'm thinking a lot of people that are crying over poorly built trail features aren't as good as they think they are.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64
    Outside observation, sounds like a spoiled brat. If TD is so concerned about bringing more mountain bikers together. He fails tremendously. He has his core group which will drop to their knees no matter what, and those which he is alienating with his work.
    C64:

    Should you be banned from MTBR because you are calling me a spoiled brat? I can assure you I am not spoiled. That being said I appreciate a different POV, but I do not appreciate you trying to humiliate me in the front of 1,000's of MTBR viewers.

    I am attaching a new professionally drawn diagram to better show what I am trying to accomplish, if I can get Justin up to the work site with a jackhammer. My first high paid job as a utility laborer 44 years ago was running an 80 lb. jackhammer.

    TD
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Have You Ridden the New Improved Munds Wagon Trail Uphill?-munds-5d.jpg  

    Last edited by traildoc; 04-09-2011 at 03:20 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    C64:

    Should you be banned from MTBR because you are calling me a spoiled brat? I can assure you I am not spoiled. That being said I appreciate a different POV, but I do not appreciate you trying to humiliate me in the front of 1,000's of MTBR viewers.

    I am attaching a new professionally drawn diagram to better show what I am trying to accomplish, if I can get Justin up to the work site with a jackhammer. My first high paid job as a utility laborer 44 years ago was running an 80 lb. jackhammer.

    TD
    Technically I did not call you anything! As for humiliation, you're doing fine on your own.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  22. #22
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    Someone must have forgotten to take his meds

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunerinaz
    Someone must have forgotten to take his meds
    Should you be banned from MTBR for such an suggestion?

    Might try and get out around noon Sunday if you're not hitting SOMO. I will be climbing the north switchback. So I better bring my jackhammer, as there is a couple 1 foot steps, which need work.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    C64:

    Should you be banned from MTBR because you are calling me a spoiled brat? I can assure you I am not spoiled. That being said I appreciate a different POV, but I do not appreciate you trying to humiliate me in the front of 1,000's of MTBR viewers.

    I am attaching a new professionally drawn diagram to better show what I am trying to accomplish, if I can get Justin up to the work site with a jackhammer. My first high paid job as a utility laborer 44 years ago was running an 80 lb. jackhammer.

    TD
    Do you really think there's 1000's of people are viewing the AZ forum?
    Your second sketch is far from professional, it looks to me like the same crayon you used in your first attempt at illustrating your point. I can also see eraser marks. You can't fool me.
    A jackhammer is not a trail tool. They are for making sidewalks, is that the direction you're headed? If you need to jackhammer, you should consider a re-route. Follow the natural contours of the land. You'll have to do less work and it will be more sustainable, that will give you more time to ride and improve your skills.
    You previously stated in another thread that you your parents were rich and you didn't have to work. Now you're saying you were a laborer. You're losing your credibility.

    Maybe one of these will help you in your quest to flatten Sedona trails...
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Have You Ridden the New Improved Munds Wagon Trail Uphill?-single-stick-dynamite147-134.jpg  


  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker
    Your second sketch is far from professional, it looks to me like the same crayon you used in your first attempt at illustrating your point. I can also see eraser marks. You can't fool me.
    Been a while for me. But today's crayon's are erasable?

    Last edited by Cycle64; 04-09-2011 at 04:40 PM.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64
    Technically I did not call you anything! As for humiliation, you're doing fine on your own.
    C64:

    I accept your apology. I am including a new and improved drawing that indicates the improvemnnet I am trying to obtain when Justin brings out the gas powered jackhammer.
    I define the masses as people who have my skill level to those who have a higher skill level. If I can't ride it then it has to be improved.

    We can't expect enough hard core mountain bikers to come to Sedona and help with the economy. The masses include tourons who spend most of their lives working to give there families a better way of life than they have.

    They haven't had the time to charge up steep climbs and run into some stupid steps. They have been at an office, retail store or manufacturing plant working their butts off trying to save enough money to take a vacation in Sedona and ejoy a great mountain biking user experience. If I can help with that improved experience I can sleep better at nights.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Have You Ridden the New Improved Munds Wagon Trail Uphill?-munds-5e.jpg  


  28. #28
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    I hear Florida is nice and flat.

  29. #29
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    [QUOTE=berzerker]
    You previously stated in another thread that you your parents were rich and you didn't have to work. Now you're saying you were a laborer. You're losing your credibility.
    QUOTE]

    bezerk:

    I feel bad about lying about being the son of a rich donut maker. At the time I posted I was trying to join the Seven Canyons Golf Club (http://www.sevencanyons.com/). I was concerned that some of the members might be searching MTBR for some great trail intel and I wanted them to think I was a fat cat like them. When they did a credit investigation on me and my wife our application was tossed in the garbage.

    We have two really cool trails (Chuck Wagon and Gunslinger) that pass within 100 yards of the golf course, so I have dreamed about buying a house out there and learning to play golf.

    TD

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    I was planning on doing the improvement Monday, so get up there before then otherwise it will TOO LATE.

    TD
    Crud... I won't have time to get up there by then and give it a try.

    Go ahead and change it forever then.

    (not that you were really looking for any input besides a big "Hooray" for TD anyway)
    Just keep pedaling...

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  31. #31
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    [quote=traildoc]
    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker
    You previously stated in another thread that you your parents were rich and you didn't have to work. Now you're saying you were a laborer. You're losing your credibility.
    QUOTE]

    bezerk:

    I feel bad about lying about being the son of a rich donut maker. At the time I posted I was trying to join the Seven Canyons Golf Club (http://www.sevencanyons.com/). I was concerned that some of the members might be searching MTBR for some great trail intel and I wanted them to think I was a fat cat like them. When they did a credit investigation on me and my wife our application was tossed in the garbage.

    We have two really cool trails (Chuck Wagon and Gunslinger) that pass within 100 yards of the golf course, so I have dreamed about buying a house out there and learning to play golf.

    TD
    If you lie about such a minor detail How can you be trusted to be an ambassador for the mountain bike community? Have you even shown your birth certificate showing you have the right to be in the US legally? Wait that would require a honest response and you just confirmed you can't be trusted. You must now forfeit all rights to ambassadorship.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  32. #32
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    [QUOTE=traildoc]
    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker
    You previously stated in another thread that you your parents were rich and you didn't have to work. Now you're saying you were a laborer. You're losing your credibility.
    QUOTE]

    bezerk:

    I feel bad about lying about being the son of a rich donut maker. At the time I posted I was trying to join the Seven Canyons Golf Club (http://www.sevencanyons.com/). I was concerned that some of the members might be searching MTBR for some great trail intel and I wanted them to think I was a fat cat like them. When they did a credit investigation on me and my wife our application was tossed in the garbage.

    We have two really cool trails (Chuck Wagon and Gunslinger) that pass within 100 yards of the golf course, so I have dreamed about buying a house out there and learning to play golf.

    TD
    That sounds like more your speed. Maybe you could fill in those pesky sand holes so golfers don't get their balls stuck, and move the holes closer to the tees. You could make every hole a par 1, then the 'masses' could enjoy a nice round of golf.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elvota
    Crud... I won't have time to get up there by then and give it a try.

    Go ahead and change it forever then.

    (not that you were really looking for any input besides a big "Hooray" for TD anyway)
    E:

    Don't worry there is another spot I am thinking of working on at the intersection of Sketch and the Ridge trail. I know you can clean that section. It is about 150 yards above the Chavez Rd./Ridge intersection where I put in that short ramp. I am trying to dumb down the Ridge trail to a total intermediate level.

    I will give you a month to get me pictures or video.

    TD

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    I'm thinking a lot of people that are crying over poorly built trail features aren't as good as they think they are.
    Is that a shot at me?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMostRad
    I find that most of the AZ riders are having problems with this ledge.
    HAHAHAHA
    Pumpin & Pimpin

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    E:

    ...I will give you a month to get me pictures or video.

    TD
    But TD, if I clean it (or any section for that matter) I realize you will not care. You do not care if I or anyone can clean a section that you find to difficult.

    The idea that difficult sections of trail exist for a reason already... to let people progress, is beyond your limited scope.

    You have explained in great depth that all you care about are the masses that you feel you represent, and dumbing trails down to a level you have judged they are at.

    My sarcasm about cleaning a section to have it be spared from your jackhammer only works if you remember your own trail philosophy.

    You don't care if a section is makable for you have proclaimed yourself judge, jury and demolition team.

    I begin to wonder how many posts you think it will take for you to turn the tide of the mountain bike community from "leave it alone" to "make it easier".

    Then I begin to wonder more why I post at all, except I remember that the trail doesn't have internet access and can't respond to your delusional vision of trail overlord. Not that I or anyone else can do any better... you are far to gone for any type of reason to touch.

    Just keep pedaling...

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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMostRad
    I find that most of the AZ riders are having problems with this ledge.
    Wholey shnickey is that some funny stuff!!!!
    Just keep pedaling...

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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMostRad
    I find that most of the AZ riders are having problems with this ledge.
    I nominate MostRad Poster of the Year. Do I hear a second?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    I nominate MostRad Poster of the Year. Do I hear a second?
    2nd!
    (between you and me, is he Jrock?)

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMostRad
    I find that most of the AZ riders are having problems with this ledge.
    There was more of a transition there at one time, but somebody sanitized it.

  41. #41
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    I like to ride. Sometimes I get skeered and have to walk. Sometimes I fall over and bleed. I *almost* always have fun. If I whine about the trail (or anything else) my buddy will make me buy the beer.

    - Brian

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by azoutside
    I like to ride. Sometimes I get skeered and have to walk. Sometimes I fall over and bleed. I *almost* always have fun. If I whine about the trail (or anything else) my buddy will make me buy the beer.

    aos:

    Sedona will be a good place for you to ride. I have improved almost 99% of the system trails so you can ride w/o getting skeered and having to buy the beer.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1
    Im not sure there will be too much bickering. Its obvious from the last several threads on similar topics that because TD and one other guy cant ride a particular section of the trail, the "masses" will not be able to ride it either and therefore TD will speak on the "majorities" behalf and change the trail as he sees fit. This is ok by me because since I dont have a comprehensive resume of trail building its clear Im not qualified to argue otherwise or even give an opinion. No worries.
    you read my mind...

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    I have been consulting with a trail improvement expert about the fix on Munds, he believes the fix can be made with a 12 lb. sledge hammer and chisel. If Justin doesn't bring out the heavy equipment I will try and fix the step with an hour or so of pounding. Anyone want to help? With 500 hours of volunteer work I can get you a free Red Rock parking pass.

    TD

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    I have been consulting with a trail improvement expert about the fix on Munds, he believes the fix can be made with a 12 lb. sledge hammer and chisel. If Justin doesn't bring out the heavy equipment I will try and fix the step with an hour or so of pounding. Anyone want to help? With 500 hours of volunteer work I can get you a free Red Rock parking pass.

    TD

    What kind of "expert" did you consult? If it's so ugly, get a plank or build a bridge, but please leave the jack hammer at home. Is this serious talk or just utter quatsch? A jack hammer? At this rate, why not build a tunnel?
    " the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." C&H

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    aos:

    Sedona will be a good place for you to ride. I have improved almost 99% of the system trails so you can ride w/o getting skeered and having to buy the beer.

    TD
    It was a good place for me to ride many years ago, still is, and likely will be long after MTBR and all its drama has faded.

    Honestly, I don't mind the sections of trail that I've seen that have been cleaned up a little; I do prefer to stay on the bike rather than walk. That said, I also don't mind getting off and walking whenever needed. It's all fun, and not worth bickering about IMO.

    - Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    aos:

    Sedona will be a good place for you to ride. I have improved almost 99% of the system trails so you can ride w/o getting skeered and having to buy the beer.

    TD
    You know its getting to the point where I feel half the things you are saying are merely an effort to get people worked up. You are definitely moving yourself toward troll status in my book. That being said, like I have mention before, Im sure you have done some very beneficial work on the trails. I guess where we can agree to disagree is that if you cant ride something, therefor the masses cant ride it either and you must save the day. Very narcissistic in my book. Then again I have a feeling you are playing that up to get people worked up. I will never understand the need to have the masses ride every single trail and as a mountain biker Im surprised you even want the masses out on your trails.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by AzKennedy
    you read my mind...
    No sarcasm. None at all.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by azoutside
    It was a good place for me to ride many years ago, still is, and likely will be long after MTBR and all its drama has faded.

    Honestly, I don't mind the sections of trail that I've seen that have been cleaned up a little; I do prefer to stay on the bike rather than walk. That said, I also don't mind getting off and walking whenever needed. It's all fun, and not worth bickering about IMO.

    aos:

    This whole thing is about TRUST. Some people trust the Democrats to fix the deficit and some people trust the GOP to fix the deficit. I don't trust either party, I trust the Tea Party.

    Look at me like the Tea Party someone you can trust to do the right thing for majority of the mountain bikers. More than likely most everyone who is complaining about my improvements probably wont even be able to ride the improvement anyway after I do the fix.

    TD

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    More than likely most everyone who is complaining about my improvements probably wont even be able to ride the improvement anyway after I do the fix.

    TD
    Then by your own words you have failed to make it any better for the masses.

    TD = FAIL...
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64
    Then by your own words you have failed to make it any better for the masses.

    TD = FAIL...
    ^Pretty much wraps it up with a nice little bow on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMostRad
    I find that most of the AZ riders are having problems with this ledge.
    I don't know who you are but I love you. Too funny!
    JRA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1
    You know its getting to the point where I feel half the things you are saying are merely an effort to get people worked up. You are definitely moving yourself toward troll status in my book. That being said, like I have mention before, Im sure you have done some very beneficial work on the trails. I guess where we can agree to disagree is that if you cant ride something, therefor the masses cant ride it either and you must save the day. Very narcissistic in my book. Then again I have a feeling you are playing that up to get people worked up. I will never understand the need to have the masses ride every single trail and as a mountain biker Im surprised you even want the masses out on your trails.
    I'm with you. I find it hard to believe that TD is being serious in all his posts.

    Personally I don't see the logic behind making every trail catered to the "masses". I guide mountain bike tours (4+ days a week in the busy season) and I take out lots of people who probably fit into the "general mass" category. To ensure they have a good time and are safe I do my best to take them on trails that fit their skill level. Much of the time their skill level calls for a very flat, non technical trail. If it were not for my guests I would never be riding these types of trails. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my time with every guest I take out even though 85% of the time I am not challenged whatsoever during the ride.

    Here's my point, several(??) years ago when I started riding I would have loved these trails, but I progressed onto bigger, better, more challenging trails. I have a feeling that if my tour guests kept mtn biking as part of their life they would do the same. If we cater everything to the beginner or intermediate level rider, how do the intermediate riders ever progress?

    If I would have never found trails that pushed my limits I would have quit mountain biking years ago, it would have become boring to me.

    Dumbing down trails slowly kills our sport
    JRA

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    Quote Originally Posted by eabos
    I'm with you. I find it hard to believe that TD is being serious in all his posts.

    Personally I don't see the logic behind making every trail catered to the "masses". I guide mountain bike tours (4+ days a week in the busy season) and I take out lots of people who probably fit into the "general mass" category. To ensure they have a good time and are safe I do my best to take them on trails that fit their skill level. Much of the time their skill level calls for a very flat, non technical trail. If it were not for my guests I would never be riding these types of trails. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my time with every guest I take out even though 85% of the time I am not challenged whatsoever during the ride.

    Here's my point, several(??) years ago when I started riding I would have loved these trails, but I progressed onto bigger, better, more challenging trails. I have a feeling that if my tour guests kept mtn biking as part of their life they would do the same. If we cater everything to the beginner or intermediate level rider, how do the intermediate riders ever progress?

    If I would have never found trails that pushed my limits I would have quit mountain biking years ago, it would have become boring to me.

    Dumbing down trails slowly kills our sport

    eabos:

    Certainly I am not dumbing the trails down to the level of those people you take out on tours. I might have improved a trail to the level that the best person you ever took out on a tour might not even be able to ride it.

    The best rider I ever took out on a paid tour had competed in the Trans Rocky Race. He didn't even clean one of my improvement on the Mescal Ride. I would say that 80% of the Sedona AZSF riders also didn't clean that improvement.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    eabos:...I would say that 80% of the Sedona AZSF riders also didn't clean that improvement.

    TD
    Sounds like all of your work is just masturbation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Dooger:

    That was a great post and you are keeeereck.

    Justin the two steps were near the top. I assume you left them because you had used up all your time on the project. The lower section rides nicely and it would be nice to complete the fix all the way to the top. I am sure if you had more money you would have made the that section ADA approved.

    Hopefully I will be successful in dumbing it down to my skill level. Since no one has admitted to being able to ride the current fix I am assuming it is not rideable now.

    TD

    I bet Brian Lopes can clean it. Seriously WTF? Just because YOU can't clear a section of trail then by all means let's bring out a jackhammer and dumb it down so you can fuel your local Sedona rock star image?

    Wow...in that case...hey guys I can't clear the Waterfall section on National at SOMO...let's jackhammer that so I can clean it on the climb and lots of others too. I mean hell, let's just jackhammer every bit of trail that all us so called skilled trail riders can't clear so instead of getting better and clearing it we can just dumb it down for our egos. Please! I thought this was mountain biking, not road biking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    I have been consulting with a trail improvement expert about the fix on Munds, he believes the fix can be made with a 12 lb. sledge hammer and chisel. If Justin doesn't bring out the heavy equipment I will try and fix the step with an hour or so of pounding. Anyone want to help? With 500 hours of volunteer work I can get you a free Red Rock parking pass.

    TD


    Are you talking a free $5 dollar red rock pass for 500 hours of free labor? That is a hell of a deal...even if it is for the annual pass, sign me up, according to my mathematics skill that means one thing...WINNING!!!!

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail-Shredder
    I bet Brian Lopes can clean it. Seriously WTF? Just because YOU can't clear a section of trail then by all means let's bring out a jackhammer and dumb it down so you can fuel your local Sedona rock star image?

    Wow...in that case...hey guys I can't clear the Waterfall section on National at SOMO...let's jackhammer that so I can clean it on the climb and lots of others too. I mean hell, let's just jackhammer every bit of trail that all us so called skilled trail riders can't clear so instead of getting better and clearing it we can just dumb it down for our egos. Please! I thought this was mountain biking, not road biking.
    TS:

    To accommodate riders with your skill level I am painting on a RED LINE where you would not be able to ride any further. You will be able to ride to the line and stop get off your bike and walk for five feet and get back on your bike. Hope that as our President says is a "reasonable compromise."

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 04-11-2011 at 09:27 AM.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    TS:

    To accommodate riders with your skill level I am painting on a RED LINE where you would not be able to ride any further. You will be able to ride to the line and stop get off your bike and walk for five feet and get back on your bike. Hope that as our President says is a "reasonable compromise."

    TD
    TD trail maintenance equipment.



    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  60. #60
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    TD

    TD

    ....TD......TD

    Did you show Justin's tool to your wife? Was it big enough? Approve?

    ...


    TD

    TD



    .
    .
    .
    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMostRad
    I find that most of the AZ riders are having problems with this ledge.
    He'd rotate that clockwise 90 degrees .

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    TD's proposed change is small and looks ok. It's a minor change to the terrain that will allow a more rideable trail. Hey, it will make it better for my wife who likes to go with me and does pretty well, but isn't as skilled technically as I am. Of course I'm no expert but I'm not a hack either. I'm not going to cry and pout about one missing step. If I want steps, I'll skip the elevator at work and walk up or down. I don't think it will diminish anyone's experience too much. Remember, give and take. Let's all play in the sandbox nicely. Ok, flame away!

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMostRad
    I find that most of the AZ riders are having problems with this ledge.
    Whatever. My penis is so much bigger then yours and yes, I ride up staircases all day long!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiva
    TD's proposed change is small and looks ok. It's a minor change to the terrain that will allow a more rideable trail. Hey, it will make it better for my wife who likes to go with me and does pretty well, but isn't as skilled technically as I am. Of course I'm no expert but I'm not a hack either. I'm not going to cry and pout about one missing step. If I want steps, I'll skip the elevator at work and walk up or down. I don't think it will diminish anyone's experience too much. Remember, give and take. Let's all play in the sandbox nicely. Ok, flame away!

    Point of the discussion <---------------------------------------------------------> You

    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiva
    TD's proposed change is small and looks ok. It's a minor change to the terrain that will allow a more rideable trail. Hey, it will make it better for my wife who likes to go with me and does pretty well, but isn't as skilled technically as I am. Of course I'm no expert but I'm not a hack either. I'm not going to cry and pout about one missing step. If I want steps, I'll skip the elevator at work and walk up or down. I don't think it will diminish anyone's experience too much. Remember, give and take. Let's all play in the sandbox nicely. Ok, flame away!
    chiva:

    Thanks for the support. My wife rides with me and I am tired of her coming home with tears in her eyes that she had to walk a lot of the trails we ride. We are both in our Golden Years and still want to ride the trails near our house w/o walking.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    chiva:

    Thanks for the support. My wife rides with me and I am tired of her coming home with tears in her eyes that she had to walk a lot of the trails we ride. We are both in our Golden Years and still want to ride the trails near our house w/o walking.

    TD

    So the truth comes out. You all want to dumb down trails for your wives so you can still get BJ's at the end of the day. That is not reason enough, unless they are willing to share.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64
    TD trail maintenance equipment.





    Bloody hilarious!!! hahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail-Shredder
    So the truth comes out. You all want to dumb down trails for your wives so you can still get BJ's at the end of the day. That is not reason enough, unless they are willing to share.
    TS:

    It would be a shame to see you get booted for that comment, but I surely wouldn't shed any tears if your handle disappeared. I am guessing you don't have a wife, and may never have the good fortune to have one with that kind of stupid comment.

    TD

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    Dumbing down? Really?!? Taking out stair steps and making trails sustainable is far from dumbing down, it's actually progression. Widening the tread a little and cutting back brush makes the trail flow better and gives the more advanced and experienced rider the ability to open it up, ride faster, carve corners, and hit airs. This crap about dumbing down trails for the less experienced is CRAP! It can be and should be better for all users unless it's a single use type trail. It's everyones forest and a well built trail system does not consist of trails that a small minority of people think it should serve.

    After reading all of the naysayers comments I have to say that many of your opinions on challenge are actually based on the fact that your just not that advanced in your riding skills. Yep, there you go, I said it. About ten years ago I too thought that riding up staircases and riding blown out eroded lines was rad and then I progressed. I also learned about trail building and what FS emps, land managers, and other user groups saw as trail damage. A poorly built line or what many of you consider a challenging line can quickly become an 18 foot wide trail, this is bad. A well built trail minimizes this damage and can still offer plenty of challenge.

    Learn about proper trail building techniques and why things should be done a certain way before you go running your mouth. There can be lots of challenge in well built lines, it just needs to be thought out.

    Change will always happen and I guess there will always be the embracers and there will always be the naysayers, which one are you? Do you want the sport to progress and have more trails to ride? Or do you fear change and just want things to stay as they are? I guess this can tell us a lot about ourselves, I know which group I would like to be affiliated with.

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    One more thing, what is flow and how do you build a trail to have flow? I really want to know what all you complainers have to say about flow. For most experienced riders and builders they have a true understanding of flow. Is it really riding in and out of washes on steep fall line trails? Really? So tell me, how would you build a trail that would flow?

    Tell us how to create a trail that eliminates widening, user created side trails, erosion, what characteristics it needs for all the user groups expected to use said trail, how to create flow, shed water, cut back on hard bike braking, and satisfy all recreational groups. Please, I want to know how much trail building education all of the complainers actually have.

    Is this about understanding the big picture or is it more about just you and your mountain biking based ego?

    I can clearly see that TD likes to poke and prod for these reactions and arguments but I think he deserves a little more credit then he is getting here.

    OK, I'm done.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    One more thing, what is flow and how do you build a trail to have flow? I really want to know what all you complainers have to say about flow. For most experienced riders and builders they have a true understanding of flow. Is it really riding in and out of washes on steep fall line trails? Really? So tell me, how would you build a trail that would flow?

    Tell us how to create a trail that eliminates widening, user created side trails, erosion, what characteristics it needs for all the user groups expected to use said trail, how to create flow, shed water, cut back on hard bike braking, and satisfy all recreational groups. Please, I want to know how much trail building education all of the complainers actually have.

    Is this about understanding the big picture or is it more about just you and your mountain biking based ego?

    I can clearly see that TD likes to poke and prod for these reactions and arguments but I think he deserves a little more credit then he is getting here.

    OK, I'm done.
    ra:



    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    ...(blaaaahhhh)

    skills. Yep, there you go, I said it. About ten years ago I too thought that riding up staircases and riding blown out eroded lines was rad and then I progressed.

    (pppffffffrrrrrttttt......)
    Maybe, with ten more years of progression, you'll look back on that, feeling shame. You could get there in a couple minutes if you just came up for air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    Dumbing down? Really?!? Taking out stair steps and making trails sustainable is far from dumbing down, it's actually progression. Widening the tread a little and cutting back brush makes the trail flow better and gives the more advanced and experienced rider the ability to open it up, ride faster, carve corners, and hit airs. This crap about dumbing down trails for the less experienced is CRAP! It can be and should be better for all users unless it's a single use type trail. It's everyones forest and a well built trail system does not consist of trails that a small minority of people think it should serve.

    After reading all of the naysayers comments I have to say that many of your opinions on challenge are actually based on the fact that your just not that advanced in your riding skills. Yep, there you go, I said it. About ten years ago I too thought that riding up staircases and riding blown out eroded lines was rad and then I progressed. I also learned about trail building and what FS emps, land managers, and other user groups saw as trail damage. A poorly built line or what many of you consider a challenging line can quickly become an 18 foot wide trail, this is bad. A well built trail minimizes this damage and can still offer plenty of challenge.

    Learn about proper trail building techniques and why things should be done a certain way before you go running your mouth. There can be lots of challenge in well built lines, it just needs to be thought out.

    Change will always happen and I guess there will always be the embracers and there will always be the naysayers, which one are you? Do you want the sport to progress and have more trails to ride? Or do you fear change and just want things to stay as they are? I guess this can tell us a lot about ourselves, I know which group I would like to be affiliated with.
    I think you are missing the point some of us are trying to make.

    There is a huge difference between making a trail modification due to sustainability issues or just general maintenance and modifying a trail because of personal preference.

    Do you understand this argument? TD has made several comments that his reasoning for changing a trail is because he cant clean a section in the climbing direction. Now Im not sure if he really means this or if he is trying to get people worked up, but that is another issue.

    If that truly is his reasoning then, THAT is what I take issue with not general trail maintenance. There are many examples of sections of trail that are nearly unclimbable. i.e. The Waterfall at Somo. The slab on the backside of Pass Mt etc etc. Using TD logic those sections should be jackhammered and "dumbed" down so his wife can ride it.

    So I ask RaisingArizona do you agree with this?

    Im unclear how removing difficult sections of trail is progression but I digress. So to be clear I am all for trail maintenance in the name of sustainability but I am very against a single individual modifying a trail because he cant ride it.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    One more thing, what is flow and how do you build a trail to have flow? I really want to know what all you complainers have to say about flow. For most experienced riders and builders they have a true understanding of flow. Is it really riding in and out of washes on steep fall line trails? Really? So tell me, how would you build a trail that would flow?

    Tell us how to create a trail that eliminates widening, user created side trails, erosion, what characteristics it needs for all the user groups expected to use said trail, how to create flow, shed water, cut back on hard bike braking, and satisfy all recreational groups. Please, I want to know how much trail building education all of the complainers actually have.

    Is this about understanding the big picture or is it more about just you and your mountain biking based ego?

    I can clearly see that TD likes to poke and prod for these reactions and arguments but I think he deserves a little more credit then he is getting here.

    OK, I'm done.
    Respect is earned, not given. Im sure TD is probably a really nice guy but I can only form my opinion of him from what he posts here. If he wants more support than it might do him good to quit with the arrogant, sometimes hypocritical, and condescending diatribe he is using to make his points. Just a thought.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1
    I think you are missing the point some of us are trying to make.

    There is a huge difference between making a trail modification due to sustainability issues or just general maintenance and modifying a trail because of personal preference.

    Do you understand this argument? TD has made several comments that his reasoning for changing a trail is because he cant clean a section in the climbing direction. Now Im not sure if he really means this or if he is trying to get people worked up, but that is another issue.

    If that truly is his reasoning then, THAT is what I take issue with not general trail maintenance. There are many examples of sections of trail that are nearly unclimbable. i.e. The Waterfall at Somo. The slab on the backside of Pass Mt etc etc. Using TD logic those sections should be jackhammered and "dumbed" down so his wife can ride it.

    So I ask RaisingArizona do you agree with this?

    Im unclear how removing difficult sections of trail is progression but I digress. So to be clear I am all for trail maintenance in the name of sustainability but I am very against a single individual modifying a trail because he cant ride it.
    He put out the bait and you guys bit, he's actually not out dumbing down the trails.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1
    I think you are missing the point some of us are trying to make.

    There is a huge difference between making a trail modification due to sustainability issues or just general maintenance and modifying a trail because of personal preference.

    Do you understand this argument? TD has made several comments that his reasoning for changing a trail is because he cant clean a section in the climbing direction. Now Im not sure if he really means this or if he is trying to get people worked up, but that is another issue.

    If that truly is his reasoning then, THAT is what I take issue with not general trail maintenance. There are many examples of sections of trail that are nearly unclimbable. i.e. The Waterfall at Somo. The slab on the backside of Pass Mt etc etc. Using TD logic those sections should be jackhammered and "dumbed" down so his wife can ride it.

    So I ask RaisingArizona do you agree with this?

    Im unclear how removing difficult sections of trail is progression but I digress. So to be clear I am all for trail maintenance in the name of sustainability but I am very against a single individual modifying a trail because he cant ride it.
    TD is all over the place with his comments. Logical conclusion is he is simply trying to stir the pot. I would bet he has made modifications to the trials to fit his desires. Claiming it is for the masses. He has asked multiple times what others have thought of a modification. When someone disagreed with it, he mocked them. Again TD is just trying to stir up the forum and one can take him serious, ignore him or play along with his game.

    I'm just an average Joe when it comes to riding. But last night I almost cleaned a rock section I've been riding for a while. I thought "heck ya" I'm going to nail this soon. Having a jackhammer smooth it out. Would not have provided the same feeling!
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    One more thing, what is flow and how do you build a trail to have flow? I really want to know what all you complainers have to say about flow. For most experienced riders and builders they have a true understanding of flow. Is it really riding in and out of washes on steep fall line trails? Really? So tell me, how would you build a trail that would flow?

    Tell us how to create a trail that eliminates widening, user created side trails, erosion, what characteristics it needs for all the user groups expected to use said trail, how to create flow, shed water, cut back on hard bike braking, and satisfy all recreational groups. Please, I want to know how much trail building education all of the complainers actually have.

    Is this about understanding the big picture or is it more about just you and your mountain biking based ego?

    I can clearly see that TD likes to poke and prod for these reactions and arguments but I think he deserves a little more credit then he is getting here.

    OK, I'm done.
    WOW! That was awesome. Lay off the coffee for a bit, huh?
    I'm simply pointing out another side of our sport, those who like difficult, if not impossible obstacles. There are plenty of those in Sedona but it seems like TD wants to change ALL of them. He lives there, rides them everyday and apparently has carte blanche to alter trails as he sees fit. Whatever, I ride there a couple times a year, and will continue to do so. I just want those who make trails there to consider leaving some ridiculously difficult sections with girlfriend lines for those who dont want the challenge. Take the Waterfall at South Mtn. I haven't been able to ride that ever, but it's a blast to bomb down. If things are changed to accomidate the uphill riders, it will change the line down it and probably be much easier. Some of us don't like that.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1
    Respect is earned, not given. Im sure TD is probably a really nice guy but I can only form my opinion of him from what he posts here. If he wants more support than it might do him good to quit with the arrogant, sometimes hypocritical, and condescending diatribe he is using to make his points. Just a thought.
    I understand where your coming from, he does have a strong personality and it seems TD is pushing buttons and looking for these arguments but trust me, his work is good and he's not actually dumbing down the trails for his wife as some have suggested. He loves playing with dirt and Sedona riding is much better these days because of this.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker
    WOW! That was awesome. Lay off the coffee for a bit, huh?
    I'm simply pointing out another side of our sport, those who like difficult, if not impossible obstacles. There are plenty of those in Sedona but it seems like TD wants to change ALL of them. He lives there, rides them everyday and apparently has carte blanche to alter trails as he sees fit. Whatever, I ride there a couple times a year, and will continue to do so. I just want those who make trails there to consider leaving some ridiculously difficult sections with girlfriend lines for those who dont want the challenge. Take the Waterfall at South Mtn. I haven't been able to ride that ever, but it's a blast to bomb down. If things are changed to accomidate the uphill riders, it will change the line down it and probably be much easier. Some of us don't like that.
    This is why specific use trails are becoming more excepted by the NF, there is a need for these features and I whole heartedly agree. Main system multi use trails where there is only supposed to be one line it doesn't always work. I love big challenging features too, this is why here in Flagstaff we have created Flagstaff Gravity Riders. Not only are we working towards having legit fr/dh trails but we have also discussed creating more technical am trails as well.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker
    WOW! That was awesome. Lay off the coffee for a bit, huh?
    I'm simply pointing out another side of our sport, those who like difficult, if not impossible obstacles. There are plenty of those in Sedona but it seems like TD wants to change ALL of them. He lives there, rides them everyday and apparently has carte blanche to alter trails as he sees fit. Whatever, I ride there a couple times a year, and will continue to do so. I just want those who make trails there to consider leaving some ridiculously difficult sections with girlfriend lines for those who dont want the challenge. Take the Waterfall at South Mtn. I haven't been able to ride that ever, but it's a blast to bomb down. If things are changed to accomidate the uphill riders, it will change the line down it and probably be much easier. Some of us don't like that.
    Do you really ride bikes w/o motors anymore?
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    I understand where your coming from, he does have a strong personality and it seems TD is pushing buttons and looking for these arguments but trust me, his work is good and he's not actually dumbing down the trails for his wife as some have suggested. He loves playing with dirt and Sedona riding is much better these days because of this.
    Ok that's fair. Then I guess the argument is moot and it can be concluded that TD's comments are merely pot stirring and not to be taken seriously. That's fine and I will stop posting in this thread.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    Dumbing down? Really?!? Taking out stair steps and making trails sustainable is far from dumbing down, it's actually progression. Widening the tread a little and cutting back brush makes the trail flow better and gives the more advanced and experienced rider the ability to open it up, ride faster, carve corners, and hit airs. This crap about dumbing down trails for the less experienced is CRAP! It can be and should be better for all users unless it's a single use type trail. It's everyones forest and a well built trail system does not consist of trails that a small minority of people think it should serve.

    After reading all of the naysayers comments I have to say that many of your opinions on challenge are actually based on the fact that your just not that advanced in your riding skills. Yep, there you go, I said it. About ten years ago I too thought that riding up staircases and riding blown out eroded lines was rad and then I progressed. I also learned about trail building and what FS emps, land managers, and other user groups saw as trail damage. A poorly built line or what many of you consider a challenging line can quickly become an 18 foot wide trail, this is bad. A well built trail minimizes this damage and can still offer plenty of challenge.

    Learn about proper trail building techniques and why things should be done a certain way before you go running your mouth. There can be lots of challenge in well built lines, it just needs to be thought out.

    Change will always happen and I guess there will always be the embracers and there will always be the naysayers, which one are you? Do you want the sport to progress and have more trails to ride? Or do you fear change and just want things to stay as they are? I guess this can tell us a lot about ourselves, I know which group I would like to be affiliated with.
    NICE!

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    I'm thinking a lot of people that are crying over poorly built trail features aren't as good as they think they are.
    or they really have some strange definition of trail progression.
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douger-1
    I think you are missing the point some of us are trying to make.

    There is a huge difference between making a trail modification due to sustainability issues or just general maintenance and modifying a trail because of personal preference.

    Do you understand this argument? TD has made several comments that his reasoning for changing a trail is because he cant clean a section in the climbing direction. Now Im not sure if he really means this or if he is trying to get people worked up, but that is another issue.

    If that truly is his reasoning then, THAT is what I take issue with not general trail maintenance. There are many examples of sections of trail that are nearly unclimbable. i.e. The Waterfall at Somo. The slab on the backside of Pass Mt etc etc. Using TD logic those sections should be jackhammered and "dumbed" down so his wife can ride it.

    So I ask RaisingArizona do you agree with this?

    Im unclear how removing difficult sections of trail is progression but I digress. So to be clear I am all for trail maintenance in the name of sustainability but I am very against a single individual modifying a trail because he cant ride it.
    Doog:

    What you don't get is that if I can't clean something you are NEVER going to clean it, so I am making it rideable for me to ride and you still might not be able to ride it, but you will have a better chance. Now do you get it? That is about as clear as I can be, hope I didn't hurt your feelings.

    TD

  85. #85
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    I don't even see why we need trails.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by m77ranger
    I don't even see why we need trails.
    77:

    When it comes to Sedona you are 100% correct. I can't vouch for ALL other riding areas, but it certainly works for Sedona. Since I have been coming to Sedona in 2000 I have been on hundereds of bushwack rides. I use to think it was kind of cool to have to walk 50% of the route because it was either too technical, too steep to climb or too steep to descend w/o serious injury.

    We once had a group of tourons on a ride out in the Secret trails area who made the statement, "we must have 100's of trails back home we don't even know exist." My suggestion to Dooger and his buddies when they come to Sedona, just ride off trail.

    Hopefully that will satisfy their need to have to do plenty of hike-a-bike each ride.

    TD

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    77:

    When it comes to Sedona you are 100% correct. I can't vouch for ALL other riding areas, but it certainly works for Sedona. Since I have been coming to Sedona in 2000 I have been on hundereds of bushwack rides. I use to think it was kind of cool to have to walk 50% of the route because it was either too technical, too steep to climb or too steep to descend w/o serious injury.

    We once had a group of tourons on a ride out in the Secret trails area who made the statement, "we must have 100's of trails back home we don't even know exist." My suggestion to Dooger and his buddies when they come to Sedona, just ride off trail.

    Hopefully that will satisfy their need to have to do plenty of hike-a-bike each ride.

    TD
    No issues with cryptobiotic soil in Sedona?
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    No issues with cryptobiotic soil in Sedona?
    Skinny:

    Before I do my typical crypto beatdown on you what do you really know about crypto and how long it takes to rejuvenate? Do you have actual experience riding through it for years to know how it responds?

    TD

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Skinny:

    Before I do my typical crypto beatdown on you what do you really know about crypto and how long it takes to rejuvenate? Do you have actual experience riding through it for years to know how it responds?

    TD
    No.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    No.
    Since you don't have any experience riding through patches of crypto maybe others reading this post do and can chime in as to what they have experienced.

    The rangers like to talk in terms of 1,000 of years to rejuvenate a bike track.

    When ranger, Tony, asked me WHAT ABOUT THE CRYPTO on my ramp project, I asked him what he was talking about? He didn't really have an answer I think he is just conditioned to ask the question.

    When I asked him WHAT ABOUT THE CRYPTO that was totally decimated while the new 10 mile double Hwy. 179 was built from VOC to Sedona, he said nothing, but he did have steam coming out of his ears.

    TD

  91. #91
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    The rangers like to talk in terms of 1,000 of years to rejuvenate a bike track.



    How would anyone really know? I sure haven't been around that long. The cattle and sheep I would imagine did a whole lot of crust busting around Sedona back in the day and a lot of those areas seem to be doing just fine but I'm no scientist or anything.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    When ranger, Tony, asked me WHAT ABOUT THE CRYPTO on my ramp project, I asked him what he was talking about? He didn't really have an answer I think he is just conditioned to ask the question.
    I'm not really sure you answered my (what I assume you think was a loaded) question. But based on this statement, is it safe to say you're not sure either? Or you don't care? If you have something to suggest busting the crust is a myth, feel free to share.

    Beyond that, personally, I think it's a bit irresponsible to suggest it's okay to bike off trail, and you might want to rethink your earlier statement.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    lot of those areas seem to be doing just fine but I'm no scientist or anything.
    You said a mouthful.

    Can you share with us proof that those areas are "doing fine?"
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    The rangers like to talk in terms of 1,000 of years to rejuvenate a bike track.



    How would anyone really know? I sure haven't been around that long. The cattle and sheep I would imagine did a whole lot of crust busting around Sedona back in the day and a lot of those areas seem to be doing just fine but I'm no scientist or anything.
    ra:

    You beat me to the other fact I was going to use, which is the FS is one of the largest contributors to the destruction of crypto. They have cattle leases on millions of acres of Forest Service Land. There are old barbed wire fences, cattle guards and gates all over Sedona that use to be important in keeping cattle in confined areas.

    Sedona tourons and locals still believe the gates serve a purpose and keep locking them closed even though you can see sections of fence missing 50' away. I have been given permission by the FS to remove them, but I don't carry a battery powered sawzall or angle grinder so I haven't got around to removing them YET.

    I am sure someone is going to think I am vandalizing the environment when I finely get around to doing it.

    One thing for sure when you bring up the cattle lease crypto thing to a FS ranger they go into some kind of automatic justification thing about the historical significance of cows and horses.

    Just for the record I do feel bad whenever I do ride through crypto, but I also feel bad when I go out and buy a giant 4oz. Hersey chocolate bar on sale for .99.

    TD

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Doog:

    What you don't get is that if I can't clean something you are NEVER going to clean it, so I am making it rideable for me to ride and you still might not be able to ride it, but you will have a better chance. Now do you get it? That is about as clear as I can be, hope I didn't hurt your feelings.

    TD


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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    chiva:

    Thanks for the support. My wife rides with me and I am tired of her coming home with tears in her eyes that she had to walk a lot of the trails we ride. We are both in our Golden Years and still want to ride the trails near our house w/o walking.

    TD

    She needs a better teacher obviously.

    Thats also poor taste for you to post your wifes' inadequate skill level on a public forum...mine would divorce me for that!

    I've seen you ride, and know plenty of women who can out ride your old lungs and legs...
    Last edited by azphxrider; 04-13-2011 at 09:05 PM.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    I'm not really sure you answered my (what I assume you think was a loaded) question. But based on this statement, is it safe to say you're not sure either? Or you don't care? If you have something to suggest busting the crust is a myth, feel free to share.

    Beyond that, personally, I think it's a bit irresponsible to suggest it's okay to bike off trail, and you might want to rethink your earlier statement.
    Skinny:

    When you last PM'ed me I thought we had come to some kind of truce, now I am not sure.
    As ra stated cows were running all over the Sedona landscape in the past. Since we have crypto all around Sedona one can assume, it takes a lot less than 1,000s of years for it to rejuvenate. You just have to take my word for it because I don't have any proof other than MY WORD.

    We also have FROST HEAVE in Sedona. In one year off road bike tracks disappear. If riders aren't getting enough hike-a-bike or challenge on Sedona trails they can just hang a 90 degree turn.

    I personally don't advocate off trail riding, but I don't want to be a hypocrite and pretend I haven't done it.It actually isn't against the law unless you are trying to build a social trail. The Secret Trails area gets more off-trail riding and hiking than any other area in Sedona. The FS is going crazy trying to STOP IT, I personally believe they are wasting their time, time will tell.

    If you were to go onto Everytrail.com and follow ramajons gpx tracks you would see a majority of his rides go off-trail. I challenge anyone to go out and try and follow those same tracks ridden over a year ago and find the bike tracks that were made during those rides.

    Fortunately, we have a lot of really cool trails to ride now, so I personally believe the off- trail riding has deminished and when ramajon retires there will even be a lot less.

    TD

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    cyanobacteria alone can reestablish itself in one to five years, but it can take from 50 to 250 years for the complete crust to recover to its original thickness, depending on its particular composition and the extent of the damage.

  99. #99
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    Lets solve this.

    Friday 3pm subrock.

    The phx riders can ride up the steps on little horse, camp out at the chute for a few hours and try to clean it, and then take BA down to the rock.

    The sedona riders can take hog wash to BA.

    The most rad can base jump off of the sisters while slamming a four loco.

    I'll ride the jeep road because I'm lazy and a spode whatever that is.

    We all meet at sub rock pull them out and measure them. This is what this thread is about right?

  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc
    Skinny:

    When you last PM'ed me I thought we had come to some kind of truce, now I am not sure.
    As ra stated cows were running all over the Sedona landscape in the past. Since we have crypto all around Sedona one can assume, it takes a lot less than 1,000s of years for it to rejuvenate. You just have to take my word for it because I don't have any proof other than MY WORD.

    We also have FROST HEAVE in Sedona. In one year off road bike tracks disappear. If riders aren't getting enough hike-a-bike or challenge on Sedona trails they can just hang a 90 degree turn.

    I personally don't advocate off trail riding, but I don't want to be a hypocrite and pretend I haven't done it.It actually isn't against the law unless you are trying to build a social trail. The Secret Trails area gets more off-trail riding and hiking than any other area in Sedona. The FS is going crazy trying to STOP IT, I personally believe they are wasting their time, time will tell.

    If you were to go onto Everytrail.com and follow ramajons gpx tracks you would see a majority of his rides go off-trail. I challenge anyone to go out and try and follow those same tracks ridden over a year ago and find the bike tracks that were made during those rides.

    Fortunately, we have a lot of really cool trails to ride now, so I personally believe the off- trail riding has deminished and when ramajon retires there will even be a lot less.

    TD
    TD, don't get me wrong, while I disagree with yoru methods of motivation, I understand and appreciate your passion for training building and mountain biking. That said, we don't have to agree on everything.

    Some "noobies" read this forum, and might take these a bit too literally and feel it's okay for them to say ride off trail in places like Phoenix. I think we both would agree (and of course, you stated this) that off trail riding is not for every place.

    Again, I'm not discounting what you're trying to do. But please don't expect me to completey agree with all your posts.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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