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  1. #1
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    Flag guidebook discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Does the OP mean guidebook perhaps?
    rock:

    Since Flag doesn't have any guides would it be a good place to develop a Skidmap database so people like the OP could be their own professional guide? That is what we have down in Sedona, and I could possibly lend him my GPS so he could easily find his way around without a guide. Is there already a place to get all the gpx files for Flagstaff trails?

    I mean we are all trying to provide our MTBR family members the best user experience for their hard earned working dollar

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    Since Flag doesn't have any guides would it be a good place to develop a Skidmap database so people like the OP could be their own professional guide? That is what we have down in Sedona, and I could possibly lend him my GPS so he could easily find his way around without a guide. Is there already a place to get all the gpx files for Flagstaff trails?

    I mean we are all trying to provide our MTBR family members the best user experience for their hard earned working dollar
    Ya got me on gpx files but how can you top Cosmic Ray's book? And the Emmit Barks map is excellent. The off the grid stuff is there for those who want to look or do their research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Ya got me on gpx files but how can you top Cosmic Ray's book? And the Emmit Barks map is excellent. The off the grid stuff is there for those who want to look or do their research.
    rock:

    If the Emmet Barks map is excellent (and the signage is excellent) then why does the OP need a guide? Maybe I can be the guide with the map and I will just GPS all the trails I take the OP on as long as we do it for FREE.

    Maybe you will let me park the motor casa on your property as a security guard, and I will stay a week or so to GPS ALL the trails. How does that sound?

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    If the Emmet Barks map is excellent (and the signage is excellent) then why does the OP need a guide? Maybe I can be the guide with the map and I will just GPS all the trails I take the OP on as long as we do it for FREE.

    Maybe you will let me park the motor casa on your property as a security guard, and I will stay a week or so to GPS ALL the trails. How does that sound?

    TD
    I'm against the idea of on-line maps with non-system trails on it. You feel differently. We've discussed this before. Hit up Epicrider. He's got the tracks for 99% of them. I'm sure he'd love to partner with you and Skidmap.

    Perhaps you're reading too much into the OP's request. Maybe he's never been to Flagstaff, never heard of Cosmic Ray, Emmit Barks, and is simply looking for ride/loop suggestions?
    Last edited by rockman; 01-28-2013 at 07:28 AM.

  5. #5
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    We the people ...

    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    If the Emmet Barks map is excellent (and the signage is excellent) then why does the OP need a guide? Maybe I can be the guide with the map and I will just GPS all the trails I take the OP on as long as we do it for FREE.

    Maybe you will let me park the motor casa on your property as a security guard, and I will stay a week or so to GPS ALL the trails. How does that sound?
    UV
    TD
    I am going to go out on a limb and say that is not going to be a popular idea. We like Flag drama free. Just my.02
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  6. #6
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    What Are Your Goals, Are They Worthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I'm against the idea of on-line maps with non-system trails on it. You feel differently. We've discussed this before. Hit up Epicrider. He's got the tracks for 99% of them. I'm sure he'd love to partner with you and Skidmap.

    Perhaps you're reading too much into the OP's request. Maybe he's never been to Flagstaff, never heard of Cosmic Ray, Emmit Barks, and is simply looking for ride/loop suggestions?
    rockman:

    Giving up a database of tracks for an area like Sedona was a very difficult thing to do, and I am sure it would be difficult for Dale to the same for Flagstaff. We have both spent hundreds if not thousands of hours riding the trails and editing the tracks into individual trails then in my case and maybe his we have redrawn the trails over the satellite image of the trail for better accuracy.

    It's a very unselfish act to give up such a project and to just go to Dale and ask him for that file wold not be appropriate. If he were to want to help out the mountain bike masses who need that information to have a better user experience and he wanted a better way to share it then Skidmap would be one way to go.

    But here is the problem even with giving the data to Skidmap you now need to write a trail description and rate every trail to make the database much better than the product I originally gave to Skidmap. In Sedona that means doing a written descriptions of over 150 trails (or connectors), then you have to write up a bunch of popular, fun, exciting loop scenarios to make the system really have sizzle.

    In my case I have already done that on Everytrail.com where I have done about 40 different loop ideas, so I can just go to those and somewhat copy or edit them for Skidmap.

    So in the end hopefully you have a product that people can rely on to make them their own professional guide. But here comes another problem, this database can only be used with a GPS, not some fancy smart phone (WTF). Everyone wants to use their smart phone, right. Well, Skidmaps position is that a smart phone doesn't have the accuracy they strive for and no one is going to spend thousands of hours putting together a comprehensive user product for a smart phone that one can become their own professional guide. You can be a pretend guide, but not a super duper guide.

    The other current draw back is that the smart phone eats up the battery in about 2 hours so on a long ride you have to keep turning your phone off and on a gps battery life is about 15 hours, so you have plenty of battery for three or four days of riding.

    Anyway it takes a dedicated person like myself to make the system work and as we all know there are not that many people truly dedicated to helpping out their fellow mountain bikers. I certainly have been fortunate to have the time to invest in the Sedona project and hopefully in the end it will be Skidmap's best project that is my goal anyway.

    The Skidmap goal fits nicely into my mission statement, so it is kind of a win win situation for me personally. If the FS is not going to let me in to help reduce erosion on our great Sedona trail system, I will just spend the time I would be out there working on the trails writing trail descriptions, taking or collecting great pictures for the database and writing great loop ideas on our vast trail system.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rockman:

    Giving up a database of tracks for an area like Sedona was a very difficult thing to do, and I am sure it would be difficult for Dale to the same for Flagstaff. We have both spent hundreds if not thousands of hours riding the trails and editing the tracks into individual trails then in my case and maybe his we have redrawn the trails over the satellite image of the trail for better accuracy.

    It's a very unselfish act to give up such a project and to just go to Dale and ask him for that file wold not be appropriate. If he were to want to help out the mountain bike masses who need that information to have a better user experience and he wanted a better way to share it then Skidmap would be one way to go.

    But here is the problem even with giving the data to Skidmap you now need to write a trail description and rate every trail to make the database much better than the product I originally gave to Skidmap. In Sedona that means doing a written descriptions of over 150 trails (or connectors), then you have to write up a bunch of popular, fun, exciting loop scenarios to make the system really have sizzle.

    In my case I have already done that on Everytrail.com where I have done about 40 different loop ideas, so I can just go to those and somewhat copy or edit them for Skidmap.

    So in the end hopefully you have a product that people can rely on to make them their own professional guide. But here comes another problem, this database can only be used with a GPS, not some fancy smart phone (WTF). Everyone wants to use their smart phone, right. Well, Skidmaps position is that a smart phone doesn't have the accuracy they strive for and no one is going to spend thousands of hours putting together a comprehensive user product for a smart phone that one can become their own professional guide. You can be a pretend guide, but not a super duper guide.

    The other current draw back is that the smart phone eats up the battery in about 2 hours so on a long ride you have to keep turning your phone off and on a gps battery life is about 15 hours, so you have plenty of battery for three or four days of riding.

    Anyway it takes a dedicated person like myself to make the system work and as we all know there are not that many people truly dedicated to helpping out their fellow mountain bikers. I certainly have been fortunate to have the time to invest in the Sedona project and hopefully in the end it will be Skidmap's best project that is my goal anyway.

    The Skidmap goal fits nicely into my mission statement, so it is kind of a win win situation for me personally. If the FS is not going to let me in to help reduce erosion on our great Sedona trail system, I will just spend the time I would be out there working on the trails writing trail descriptions, taking or collecting great pictures for the database and writing great loop ideas on our vast trail system.
    I'm not sure who you're talking to wrt to goals and worthiness

    Anyway, to the OP stop in one of bike shops or order on-line. Emmitt Barks Cartography
    Fat Tire Tales & Trails: Arizona Mountain Bike Trail Guide: Cosmic Ray: 9780966476989: Amazon.com: Books

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I'm not sure who you're talking to wrt to goals and worthiness

    Anyway, to the OP stop in one of bike shops or order on-line. Emmitt Barks Cartography
    Fat Tire Tales & Trails: Arizona Mountain Bike Trail Guide: Cosmic Ray: 9780966476989: Amazon.com: Books
    rockman:

    Give me a break. You my friend have two wonderful children. Why are they wonderful because of your goal to dedicate your life to making them be wonderful. I have no children, so I can spend my time on what I consider to be a worthy goal. You may think it is a stupid goal and you may be right, but it gives me a purpose and a happiness that works for me.

    I often ask my super rich friends that hang out with other super rich friends, who is having MORE FUN, the person flying to Greece in his private jet to cruise on his friend's 100' luxury yacht for a week or me riding my favorite trails in Sedona or somewhere else close by?

    I chose to think I am having just as much fun, but maybe I am wrong, but what does it matter as long as I am happy about where I am at.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rockman:

    Give me a break. You my friend have two wonderful children. Why are they wonderful because of your goal to dedicate your life to making them be wonderful. I have no children, so I can spend my time on what I consider to be a worthy goal. You may think it is a stupid goal and you may be right, but it gives me a purpose and a happiness that works for me.

    I often ask my super rich friends that hang out with other super rich friends, who is having MORE FUN, the person flying to Greece in his private jet to cruise on his friend's 100' luxury yacht for a week or me riding my favorite trails in Sedona or somewhere else close by?

    I chose to think I am having just as much fun, but maybe I am wrong, but what does it matter as long as I am happy about where I am at.
    What's this thread about again? Let me get this straight. Since the OP is looking for a guide or a guidebook then this is the perfect opportunity for Skidmap or you to make an on-line map of Flagstaff trails? That's an admirable goal I'll concede that as an official one does not exist. Personally, I'm against the idea of on-line maps with non-system trails on them but go for it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    What's this thread about again? Let me get this straight. Since the OP is looking for a guide or a guidebook then this is the perfect opportunity for Skidmap or you to make an on-line map of Flagstaff trails? That's an admirable goal I'll concede that as an official one does not exist. Personally, I'm against the idea of on-line maps with non-system trails on them but go for it.
    rockman:

    I always love posts like the jaybird made. I am the only one who has stepped up to be the jaybird's guide and I am trying to figure out the trail system so I can show him a good time. I do have a couple friends who know the system trails very well and they would certainly join us for the ride, so I think it would be a win win situation, but I doubt it will ever happen, because like most posts they usually go nowhere.

    Since I am not getting paid for the tour it would obviously be on a day I can get my friends to show-up for a ride. Hopefully someone like yourself will show him around.
    Last edited by traildoc; 01-28-2013 at 09:53 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rockman:

    I always love posts like the OP make. I am the only one who has stepped up to be the OP's guide and I am trying to figure out the trail system so I can show him a good time. I do have a couple friends who know the system trails very well and they would certainly join us for the ride, so I think it would be a win win situation, but I doubt it will ever happen, because like most posts they usually go nowhere.

    Since I am not getting paid for the tour it would obviously be on a day I can get my friends to show-up for a ride. Hopefully someone like yourself will show him around.
    Perhaps when the time comes and the OP hasn't been scared away by his thread there will be a plethora of like-minded folks willing to go for a ride. I can't ever recall that being an issue. Kinda a moot point right now. It's puking snow right now and trail riding is months away.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    Can anyone recommend a good MTB guide in Flagstaff?
    This one'll do ya just fine. Fat Tire Tales & Trails: Arizona Mountain Bike Trail Guide: Cosmic Ray: 9780966476989: Amazon.com: Books and that's a promise.

    Best to just ignore TD.
    "May your trails be winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view." - Ed Abbey
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  13. #13
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    Your own thread. Play nice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    Your own thread. Play nice.
    rc:

    Thanks for the heads up. That was a stupid post. I edited it to show jaybird who says he is coming to Flagstaff and is looking for a guide. Sorry about that.

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  16. #16
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    @rockcrusher: i provide good beta and tame, metered commentary about TD and you delete my post? i find that rather lame. i've been on mtbr for a decade (a timeframe to rival your own membership) and never been censored before.

    i call foul.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockychrysler View Post
    @rockcrusher: i provide good beta and tame, metered commentary about TD and you delete my post? i find that rather lame. i've been on mtbr for a decade (a timeframe to rival your own membership) and never been censored before.

    i call foul.
    Sorry i just moved it out the main discussion from the other post and deleted the remainder as it was out of context. I can move it here but it will be out of context here too. In lieu of deleting the OP's thread out right this was the best move that could be made. Alternately i can delete this one too and just leave the OP with his thread that hopefully has enough info that he can get to Flag and ride some great trails with locals or whatever.

    edit: I moved your post into this thread, it is mostly contextual.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher View Post
    Sorry i just moved it out the main discussion from the other post and deleted the remainder as it was out of context. I can move it here but it will be out of context here too. In lieu of deleting the OP's thread out right this was the best move that could be made. Alternately i can delete this one too and just leave the OP with his thread that hopefully has enough info that he can get to Flag and ride some great trails with locals or whatever.

    edit: I moved your post into this thread, it is mostly contextual.
    rc:

    Thanks for this post I thought my mind was playing tricks on me. Now I understand what you did and that you had good intentions. Back to work.

    TD

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