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  1. #1
    Elitest thrill junkie
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    Cyclist/automobile accident on news tonight

    Anyone else see this? Story seems to be cyclist following SUV closely at speed (maybe not directly behind, I dunno). SUV stops suddenly for car pulling out into road. Cyclist plows into SUV from behind.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  2. #2
    Just Joshin' ya!
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    Maybe the cyclist was drafting. Seriously. I have seen people doing this in New Mexico to get their speed up. Or maybe he or she was in that endorphin zone out state of mind. I have definitely zoned out while road riding and had a similar thing happen to me. I managed to lock up the brakes and not hit the car, but came pretty damn close.
    Getting a dropper post is like getting a bidet. I didn't know I needed one until I get one and boy, does my ass thank me.

  3. #3
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    This happend a while back here in tukee, a roadie plowed full speed into the back of a phone truck parked on the side of the road and died. I rode by just as the cops were showing up, the guy had to have been going at least 50 because the bike was rolled into a ball and stuffed all the way under the truck by the front wheels!!


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  4. #4
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    Are you referring to this story? --> http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/143382

  5. #5
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    Here is the full story link. Sad and scary. My thoughts go out to all involved and their famlies.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7636047

    We had our own scare yesterday when Ty when down in the Skull Valley Road Race. Not a good weekend for cyclists! http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...3&l=f78c2f0ed6
    Last edited by mcoplea; 08-24-2009 at 09:25 PM.
    Marty

  6. #6
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    ugh, bummer story...

    We've got the college kids back in Flagstaff and I was buzzed by a buncha yelling SUV asses in the bike lane on San Francisco for the first time in years yesterday on my way home.

    I've heard underground reports that there have been no less than 3 bike vs car collisions in Flagstaff as of yesterday... http://twitter.com/flagstaffnews/status/3521361024

  7. #7
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    Another...

    http://www.azcentral.com/community/m...itrun0826.html

    Driver arrested after bicyclist injured in hit and run
    by Tara Alatorre - Aug. 25, 2009 01:16 PM
    The Arizona Republic

    A bicyclist was flown to Scottsdale Healthcare Osborn Monday night after being struck by a hit-and-run driver about 6:30 p.m. while traveling on East McKellips Road near Usery Pass Road in far east Mesa.

    The bicyclist, whose name has not been released, suffered multiple fractures to his pelvis, head, back vertebrae and left arm. He remains in serious condition.

    About three hours later, a man identified as Benito Gil-Mendoza was arrested on
    suspicion of being the driver involved with the hit and run.

    Officers stopped Mendoza at the Loop 202 and Brown Road because his vehicle matched the suspect vehicle description involved with the collision. When Department of Public Safety officers pulled him over, they smelled a strong odor of alcohol and held him until Mesa police could administer a sobriety test, according to police reports.

    Mendoza could not complete the tests stating "he was too drunk," according to a report from the Mesa Police Department.

    The preliminary blood test showed his blood alcohol level was .211, which two and a half times the legal limit. Mendoza admitted he struck "something" to DPS officers but did not know where the collision occurred, according to police reports.

    Mendoza also stated to officers that he was glad he was stopped because he could of "killed himself or someone else," according to police reports.

    He was arrested on charges of hit and run and aggravated assault.
    ~~~

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by su.ling~

    The bicyclist, whose name has not been released, suffered multiple fractures to his pelvis, head, back vertebrae and left arm. He remains in serious condition.

    [/I]
    That is exactly why I do not road ride. I will take my chances with rocks and cacti.
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  9. #9
    parenting for gnarness
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    thanks SL, that ruined my day, since i go through that intersection on many road rides.

    unfortunately, they probably cant prove he was dui when he hit the guy, and a field test is not admissible in court. Assuming it takes more than 40 minutes to get a blood test, he will not even be at the super-extreme DUI level when they charge him.

    watch this if you want to be scared on the roads:

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  10. #10
    I, Mudd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pynis McDermott
    That is exactly why I do not road ride. I will take my chances with rocks and cacti.
    I agree 100%.
    "Because I was profiling and it looked stolen.
    90% of everything in my neighborhood is stolen." - Me

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    unfortunately, they probably cant prove he was dui when he hit the guy, and a field test is not admissible in court. Assuming it takes more than 40 minutes to get a blood test, he will not even be at the super-extreme DUI level when they charge him.
    Correct, they won't be able to prove he was DUI at the time of the accident, but in this case it won't be relevant. Also correct that, assuming a PBT was used to get the initial field BAC, it won't be specifically admissible, though the officer can testify that it showed positive for the presence of alcohol.

    Depending on the calibration of the PBT and whether the offender was "going up" or "coming down" he could still easily be super-extreme.

    The big thing here is that he was charged with agg. assault, which is a felony, and will run through the Maricopa County Attorney rather than a city court.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcoplea
    Here is the full story link. Sad and scary. My thoughts go out to all involved and their famlies.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7636047

    We had our own scare yesterday when Ty when down in the Skull Valley Road Race. Not a good weekend for cyclists! http://www.facebook.com/album.php?ai...3&l=f78c2f0ed6
    Sorry about your son, I read your bit on your facebook, that must have sucked coming around the corner and seeing him on the ground. Hope is ok and those are just road rash bandages, not breaks!! We need him back up to give us some competition for the fall races!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    watch this if you want to be scared on the roads:
    Ok - im scared. I was driving home from the store yesterday with both my boys in the back seat texting my wife. After watching that I am a little freaked out! No more texting for me! We had dinner with friends and they both had seen it and were on the similar path. I actually left my phone at home when we went to dinner. Thanks for posting!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pynis McDermott
    That is exactly why I do not road ride. I will take my chances with rocks and cacti.

    That is EXACTLY why I do not have a motorcycle, let alone road ride. I saw enough stupid shtuff everyday infront of my on my motorcycle to EVER consider road riding.

    I hate to say it but even being a drunk driver that caused the accident I think it falls that if you play with the bull you get the horns . Your riding on a road, they are made for cars

    Beyond the danger of it I don't see the enjoyment. Evertime I have ridden near traffic I am gritting my teeth and just waiting for a car to hit me. Then take into consideration of the fresh exhaust you get to breath in and if you are lucky enough to ride in a group then you get to stair at the persons tire or butt infront of you so you can draft and save energy while working out.....
    and the lurker returns to the dark corner

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by robothouse
    ugh, bummer story...

    We've got the college kids back in Flagstaff and I was buzzed by a buncha yelling SUV asses in the bike lane on San Francisco for the first time in years yesterday on my way home.

    I've heard underground reports that there have been no less than 3 bike vs car collisions in Flagstaff as of yesterday... http://twitter.com/flagstaffnews/status/3521361024
    This is, unfortunately, the sad truth about Flag. Those signs proclaiming a 'bicycle friendly community' on the way into town were obviously put up by someone who doesn't ride here daily. Naturally, having a transient population that comes from places where bicycles on the road may not be a familiar phenomenon doesn't help.

    My list of the worst Flag offenders:

    1) Any male individual driving a large pickup truck, preferably a diesel, who will completely disregard your right to the road. You know... THEIR road... the road that they apparently gained exclusive rights to after signing the contract on their loud, smelly, obnoxious vehicle... the one that was designed to be able to haul construction materials and tow small buildings, that will never do much more than scream self-righteously around town.

    2) Those little rice-mobile operators who have apparently seen 'the fast and the furious' too many times, and now think the streets of Flag are their own personal racetrack. We have a sh!tload of cops in this town... but apparently, 50+ mph in a 35 is something you can get away with here.

    3) Drivers who seem to be in an excessive hurry. This one I just do not understand. It's a small town. You can drive the speed limit from one end to the other in less than 20 minutes. What's the rush? How about actually stopping at the signs and lights, and looking before you turn with your wheels screeching and engine roaring?

    4) College students who don't have a lot of experience behind the wheel, and are somewhat lacking in the maturity/common sense department. Oh yeah, mr. cool... you are so superior in the shiny car mommy and daddy bought you for college.


    This town is downright DANGEROUS to ride in during certain times, and it wouldn't suprise me at all to learn that the number of accidents involving cyclists has risen sharply since the return of the student population.

    Of course, much of that student population rides bicycles as well, and it might help if they decided to follow the rules too. I just about had a collision with another cyclist yesterday after I approached an intersection where he had a stop sign. I continued through the intersection expecting him to stop, but he nearly plowed right into the side of me. I yelled "stop sign!" and pointed, but he only gave me a confused look and kept riding like nothing happened.

    It is a sad story whenever accidents happen... the ones involving cyclists are usually downright tragic... it isn't going to get any better until someone figures out how to make all these tragedies stick in people's minds, so they actually give a sh!t and change their behavior.

    end rant... sorry, no intention of hijacking this thread, but this has been such a big issue up here recently that it's hard not to talk about it.

  16. #16
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    When I used to be a roadie we would train out on Usery and Pecos a lot...both very scary roads. I never myself had any close calls but I did see a few happen and I think that, in part, contributed to me discontinuing that sport. Its funny because I quit mountain biking and started road riding because the rocks and cactus hurt....I didn't realize I guess the potential of getting smashed by a car or just how much hatred there is in this valley for bicyclists in general....I've actually been threatened by some of those "male individual driving a large pickup truck, preferably a diesel, who will completely disregard your right to the road."

    I do still commute by bike, and after getting almost totally run over by a city bus a couple of years ago I do my best to stay off the main drags as much as possible and cut through the neighborhoods. Still have to look out for people coming out of their driveways, but I'll take my chances with them over a 10 ton bus anyday!!
    "too weird to live, too rare to die" - HST
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  17. #17
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant

    The big thing here is that he was charged with agg. assault, which is a felony, and will run through the Maricopa County Attorney rather than a city court.
    let's hope he gets everything they can give him. there was a recent article in Tailwinds about how unprotected cyclists are by the laws, it made me pretty sick. I've posted my feelings previously against AZ's laws on impaired to the slightest and DUID zero tolerance per se, and I am no saint, but .21 is ridiculous no matter how you look at it.

    Brit - sorry to ruin your day with that vid. It really moved me too. Texting is obviously legal (for now), but imo there is no place for it while driving. I've been scared $h!tless once or twice when my wife tried to find an email with directions on her Blackberry - I won't do it and won't let her either. The US Senate is considering legislation to withhold highway funds from any state that does not ban texting. See this video if you want some more scary studies.

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...ef=videosearch
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  18. #18
    Ridin bikes is fun
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    Quote Originally Posted by su.ling~
    Another...

    http://www.azcentral.com/community/m...itrun0826.html

    Driver arrested after bicyclist injured in hit and run
    by Tara Alatorre - Aug. 25, 2009 01:16 PM
    The Arizona Republic

    A bicyclist was flown to Scottsdale Healthcare Osborn Monday night after being struck by a hit-and-run driver about 6:30 p.m. while traveling on East McKellips Road near Usery Pass Road in far east Mesa.

    The bicyclist, whose name has not been released, suffered multiple fractures to his pelvis, head, back vertebrae and left arm. He remains in serious condition.

    About three hours later, a man identified as Benito Gil-Mendoza was arrested on
    suspicion of being the driver involved with the hit and run.

    Officers stopped Mendoza at the Loop 202 and Brown Road because his vehicle matched the suspect vehicle description involved with the collision. When Department of Public Safety officers pulled him over, they smelled a strong odor of alcohol and held him until Mesa police could administer a sobriety test, according to police reports.

    Mendoza could not complete the tests stating "he was too drunk," according to a report from the Mesa Police Department.

    The preliminary blood test showed his blood alcohol level was .211, which two and a half times the legal limit. Mendoza admitted he struck "something" to DPS officers but did not know where the collision occurred, according to police reports.

    Mendoza also stated to officers that he was glad he was stopped because he could of "killed himself or someone else," according to police reports.

    He was arrested on charges of hit and run and aggravated assault.
    That really sucks; I rode that road this morning as I do the Usery road loop 3 or 4 times a week. My wife tells me she worries more about my road rides than she does my dirt rides. By my estimation it would take 10,000 OTB's to equal 1 getting hit by a car. I'll prolly keep on doin it though.

  19. #19
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    Would love to road ride but not worth the chances with our Terrible AZ drivers. I'll stick to the rocks and cactus........hopefully not literally!!!!!!!!!!!!

  20. #20
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    I have had it with all this "that's why I don't ride road bikes" crap. It is as if you people have a fair amount of contempt for roadies and/or you feel more righteous than roadies.

    As to the accident at hand, it is a very sad story. However, in this case, my opinion is that the cyclists were not riding safely in that they were too close to the SUV for the speed they were traveling. I believe the safe and correct thing to do, both as a rider and as a driver, is to be behind the car in front of you far enough such that if that car stopped suddenly, you would have enough distance to stop in time. Drivers never do this and it is a shame.

    Now, as to road riding safety, here is a short list of things that are more dangerous than riding a bike on the road:

    Walking across the street.
    Suicide. ,
    Falling at home.
    Accidental poisoning.
    Swimming.
    Eating hamburgers.
    Drinking alcohol.
    Staying in a hospital (infections).
    Medication errors.


    I think it is safe to say that I have probably ridden on the road more than on the dirt. I have been to the hospital no less than three times as a result of a bike crash. All three crashes were from mountain biking.

    So go ahead people and wallow in your non-road rider righteousness. You are blind to reality. If you want to be safe, don't cross the street anymore. Better yet, stop drinking beer. See this picture:




    This is why I never drink!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I AM JUST A JERK

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    I have had it with all this "that's why I don't ride road bikes" crap. It is as if you people have a fair amount of contempt for roadies and/or you feel more righteous than roadies.

    As to the accident at hand, it is a very sad story. However, in this case, my opinion is that the cyclists were not riding safely in that they were too close to the SUV for the speed they were traveling. I believe the safe and correct thing to do, both as a rider and as a driver, is to be behind the car in front of you far enough such that if that car stopped suddenly, you would have enough distance to stop in time. Drivers never do this and it is a shame.

    Now, as to road riding safety, here is a short list of things that are more dangerous than riding a bike on the road:

    Walking across the street.
    Suicide. ,
    Falling at home.
    Accidental poisoning.
    Swimming.
    Eating hamburgers.
    Drinking alcohol.
    Staying in a hospital (infections).
    Medication errors.


    I think it is safe to say that I have probably ridden on the road more than on the dirt. I have been to the hospital no less than three times as a result of a bike crash. All three crashes were from mountain biking.

    So go ahead people and wallow in your non-road rider righteousness. You are blind to reality. If you want to be safe, don't cross the street anymore. Better yet, stop drinking beer. See this picture:




    This is why I never drink!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Holy **** Dir Dir! I actualy agree with you 100% on this one. Great post and well written. Guess a lawyer can be good for something!
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  22. #22
    Ouch, I am hot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstem
    Holy **** Dir Dir! I actualy agree with you 100% on this one. Great post and well written. Guess a lawyer can be good for something!
    Thanks...I think.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    I have had it with all this "that's why I don't ride road bikes" crap. It is as if you people have a fair amount of contempt for roadies and/or you feel more righteous than roadies.

    As to the accident at hand, it is a very sad story. However, in this case, my opinion is that the cyclists were not riding safely in that they were too close to the SUV for the speed they were traveling. I believe the safe and correct thing to do, both as a rider and as a driver, is to be behind the car in front of you far enough such that if that car stopped suddenly, you would have enough distance to stop in time. Drivers never do this and it is a shame.

    Now, as to road riding safety, here is a short list of things that are more dangerous than riding a bike on the road:

    Walking across the street.
    Suicide. ,
    Falling at home.
    Accidental poisoning.
    Swimming.
    Eating hamburgers.
    Drinking alcohol.
    Staying in a hospital (infections).
    Medication errors.


    I think it is safe to say that I have probably ridden on the road more than on the dirt. I have been to the hospital no less than three times as a result of a bike crash. All three crashes were from mountain biking.

    So go ahead people and wallow in your non-road rider righteousness. You are blind to reality. If you want to be safe, don't cross the street anymore. Better yet, stop drinking beer. See this picture:




    This is why I never drink!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    haha you go get em dirdir I still do my road rides, a lot of those accidents are unfortunate, I choose my routes carefully and always take all the precautions to protect myself on the road. I can't stop living just because some tells me its dangerous, but that is my own opinion. Just be safe and have fun no matter what you decide.
    “Ride as much or as little, or as long or as short as you feel. But ride.” ~ Eddy Merckx

  24. #24
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    People ask me how I can participate in the dangerous sport of mountain biking when the streets are so much safer. I tell them although I have crashed into many things while mountain biking, I have never once had something crash into me.

  25. #25
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    Seriously- I agree with Dir, but for those who don't here is a little insight as to why:

    Life is not inherently dangerous- living it is. And this quote sums it up for me and details much of how I live my life:

    "I would rather die on my feet than die on my knees" which is loosely translated from Emiliano Zapata (most say). That to ME means that to live with pride one must resist out side forces that would stifle your creativity, passion or ideal- be they people with your best intrests not in mind, everyday set backs, and even your own thoughts and feelings.

    If one chooses not to road- then don't. But please do not make it harder for those who do with the freaking one off horror stories of someone you did not know, who probably exists only in folk lore, that only serve to increase negativity towards anyone on a road cycle. It is the same thing I get about road motorcycling and it is ridiculous. As I tell every customer from my MC shop or every fan at any motorsports event- you are more likely to die in your own bed or bathtub than you are on the street. In fact you are more likely to die by gun than you are by bike accident on the road. So take your bunk ass "My aunt works in the ER and...." crap and stuff it. If you are ready to type some lame reply about danger- re read from the top. Do what makes you happy and let others around you do the same. Ride on!
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by su.ling~
    Another...

    http://www.azcentral.com/community/m...itrun0826.html

    Driver arrested after bicyclist injured in hit and run
    by Tara Alatorre - Aug. 25, 2009 01:16 PM
    The Arizona Republic

    A bicyclist was flown to Scottsdale Healthcare Osborn Monday night after being struck by a hit-and-run driver about 6:30 p.m. while traveling on East McKellips Road near Usery Pass Road in far east Mesa.

    The bicyclist, whose name has not been released, suffered multiple fractures to his pelvis, head, back vertebrae and left arm. He remains in serious condition.

    About three hours later, a man identified as Benito Gil-Mendoza was arrested on
    suspicion of being the driver involved with the hit and run.

    Officers stopped Mendoza at the Loop 202 and Brown Road because his vehicle matched the suspect vehicle description involved with the collision. When Department of Public Safety officers pulled him over, they smelled a strong odor of alcohol and held him until Mesa police could administer a sobriety test, according to police reports.

    Mendoza could not complete the tests stating "he was too drunk," according to a report from the Mesa Police Department.

    The preliminary blood test showed his blood alcohol level was .211, which two and a half times the legal limit. Mendoza admitted he struck "something" to DPS officers but did not know where the collision occurred, according to police reports.

    Mendoza also stated to officers that he was glad he was stopped because he could of "killed himself or someone else," according to police reports.

    He was arrested on charges of hit and run and aggravated assault.
    I just now thismorning got a phone call from my buddy Mike , ----and the cyclist that was hit works with my freind Mike at SRP.
    He is still in a coma and is really in a bad way , ---and if he survives it will be along time before he is able to work again

  27. #27
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    Wish Dave a speedy recovery...

    First off, I hope Dave is able to make a full recovery, and wish his family the best. Sounds like he is progressing from the Brumby emails I have read, but still only able to communicate with eye movement and hand squeezing.

    I've participated in probably half a dozen or so El Tour de Tucson races and know that sometimes a lot can go wrong in an event like this. Most of my close calls were due to inexperienced riders. I think Tucson does a great job closing sections/lanes off for the event, or at least managing traffic in specific areas.

    The place where the crash from the OP occurred was in a canyon, with a fairly steep grade. The course was NOT closed to traffic. I think it would be difficult in a race format, to "race" down a steep grade at a speed that I can safely stop. From reading the article, there was an attempt to close the course to traffic, but that did not happen. I don't pretend to know all the logistics of that decision, but in my mind, mixing racing, with steep grade, with traffic, is a bad idea.

    If event planners wanted to keep the canyon as part of the route, they should have done more (or done more earlier) to manage traffic in this location.
    "I've got nothing to hoard...."

  28. #28
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    all I said is that you can't really complain about getting hit by a car on the road no matter if you are on bike, bed or barstool. You could complain if you were hit by a car sittin on any of these in the middle of your livingroom. I will complain if I hit a cactus, complain that I had earned it.....
    and the lurker returns to the dark corner

  29. #29
    parenting for gnarness
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttocs
    all I said is that you can't really complain about getting hit by a car on the road no matter if you are on bike, bed or barstool. You could complain if you were hit by a car sittin on any of these in the middle of your livingroom. I will complain if I hit a cactus, complain that I had earned it.....


    so crappy driving and crappy drivers are ok, to be accepted,tacitly approved by your logic?
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  30. #30
    Ouch, I am hot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by bweide
    I have never once had something crash into me.
    Neither have I.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    This is why I never drink!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Good post until the last statement. You did exactly what you were preaching against. As long as people do things responsibly you can always minimize the risk associated with doing said activity.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball

    so crappy driving and crappy drivers are ok, to be accepted,tacitly approved by your logic?
    What, you mean you don't remember signing that contract before you ever stepped out your front door?

    "The undersigned tenant, upon leaving the premises, accepts all responsibility for any and all consequences of doing so. This stipulation shall be considered valid concerning all circumstances including but not limited to: engaging in behavior involving risk, the actions of other people, willful self-exposure to environmental hazards, acts of god, etc. Under no circumstances shall the tenant attempt to transfer responsibility for unforseen occurences onto any other party, or appeal to existing statutes to amerliorate discomfort, or to cause any inquiry into any other person's actions."

    That's my phony lawyer speak for DirDir.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball

    so crappy driving and crappy drivers are ok, to be accepted,tacitly approved by your logic?
    it is not acceptable but it is expectable and par for the course. I don't care if you get hit by a good driver or a crappy one, you are on their playground.....
    and the lurker returns to the dark corner

  34. #34
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    Wait, public roads.. on which bikes are vehicles and have the same usage rights as cars.. are "their playground"?


    Oh and I almost got hit last week, and the woman was looking right at me as she pulled out into me.
    mike

  35. #35
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    Look I am not a lawyer but there are not a lot of good laws on the books in AZ that CLEARLY state that bikes have all the rights and protections of drivers. The laws can be left to interpretation (which is sometimes a good thing too).

    It is also pretty clear that no matter what man made laws say- the laws of science always win. Cars are big and heavy+bikes are not= if we want to ride on a mutually shared playground, we may get smacked by a bully.

    Another way to look at it for all you "bikes have the same rights" folks (which is not a slam) is that cars collide with each other every day. If we have all the same rights as our four wheeled friends, then it would serve that we are able to share in those collisions once in a while. And closed course does not mean turn off brain and ride like you are the only one around- we all need to think a little more, be a little more cautious and enjoy riding the way we choose.
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  36. #36
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    All I'm saying is that we do have the right to be using that particular surface, along with that goes the natural responsibility to play by the rules as well. Will there be collisions? Yep, just like operating any other vehicle. Do I pay more attention on a bicycle? You betcha, did on a motorcycle too when I rode one, precisely because I know most drivers are oblivious to anything under 2 tons. I just sorely wish drivers would look out for bicyclists and motorcyclists more often. I also wish the idiots operating their bicycles like they're pedestrians would stop. I believe that adds to the confusion (although even pedestrians have rights on the road too). For that matter.. I wish big pickup drivers would pay attention to CARS on the road too. I just found the statement that a bicyclist is a second class citizen on the road to be well.. counter productive to those ends.
    mike

  37. #37
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    I've been thinking on this for a while... it doesn't do us, as cyclists, much good to sit around and debate what we think drivers SHOULD do... for the most part, we have to deal with the insanity of the road as it is. It will continue being this way until there is a genuine incentive to cause people to change their behavior.

    Apparently, avoiding an accident where one may potentially injure/kill another human being is obviously not sufficient incentive to effect a change in the behavior of drivers or cyclists.

    The usual routes in modern society are to educate and enforce. I don't see enough of either. The DMV clearly states that driving a motor vehicle is a privilege, not a right. But try telling that to Mr. Pickup or to Ms. Teeny-bopper-college-student.

    And to make things worse, it's pretty hard to actually lose your license in most places. They would rather keep bad drivers on the road, and fine them lots of money. It's a guaranteed revenue stream tainted with the blood of the victims of well tolerated irresponsibility.

    There is a solution, but it requires more than talking about what we wish would happen. It requires reforming the system that supports the current condition.

  38. #38
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    Actually, it's very, very easy to lose your driving privileges in this state.

    I can see the issue from both sides. FWIW, I don't ride road.

    Drivers are usually, for some reason, in a big hurry to get where they're going and they don't want anything getting in their way. I see it day in and day out when I talk to drivers on traffic stops. They don't know the speed limit, they don't know how fast they were driving, they didn't know the light was red, the didn't see the motorcyclist they nearly hit, etc.

    The cause could be inattention, entitlement, ignorance or a lack of respect for the needs of others. Or all of the above.

    Yes, bicyclists have a right to the road; they're classified as "vehicles" under ARS. At the same time drivers have no regard for others on the roadway, riders in my experience typically have little regard for traffic statutes (not stopping for lights/signs, riding four wide on roadways, etc.).

    For everyone to be safe, both riders and drivers need to have some more courtesy, pay more attention and have better attitudes. Be safe out there.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant
    Actually, it's very, very easy to lose your driving privileges in this state.

    I can see the issue from both sides. FWIW, I don't ride road.

    Drivers are usually, for some reason, in a big hurry to get where they're going and they don't want anything getting in their way. I see it day in and day out when I talk to drivers on traffic stops. They don't know the speed limit, they don't know how fast they were driving, they didn't know the light was red, the didn't see the motorcyclist they nearly hit, etc.

    The cause could be inattention, entitlement, ignorance or a lack of respect for the needs of others. Or all of the above.

    Yes, bicyclists have a right to the road; they're classified as "vehicles" under ARS. At the same time drivers have no regard for others on the roadway, riders in my experience typically have little regard for traffic statutes (not stopping for lights/signs, riding four wide on roadways, etc.).

    For everyone to be safe, both riders and drivers need to have some more courtesy, pay more attention and have better attitudes. Be safe out there.
    I wish police would give out tickets to tailgaters. Every day I drive to work and it is the same story. Driver is going 65mph and is like 7 feet behind the car in front of him. THIS DRIVES ME NUTS!!!!!
    I AM JUST A JERK

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    I wish police would give out tickets to tailgaters. Every day I drive to work and it is the same story. Driver is going 65mph and is like 7 feet behind the car in front of him. THIS DRIVES ME NUTS!!!!!
    Are we going to tangent into which ignored traffic laws drive us nuts? If so, I've got a long list!
    mike

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdpowers
    Good post until the last statement. You did exactly what you were preaching against. As long as people do things responsibly you can always minimize the risk associated with doing said activity.
    Nope. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of those that have either died or have an illness related to their use of alcohol have started out on the basis of drinking responsibly.

    The fact remains that consuming any addicitive substance creates the inherant risk of addiction. My opinion is that this inherant risk relating to alcohol use is more dangerous than riding on the road.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    I wish police would give out tickets to tailgaters.
    Ticket? Why?

    So that only people wealthy enough to pay the tickets can essentially cause dangerous situations with impunity?

    When someone fails to signal, cuts me off, and then runs a red light while making a right turn right into the bike lane... I wish the police would impound their car and suspend their license for 30 days.

    (the above situation actually happened to me right in front of a cop)

    Oh... wait... cops don't even pull people over for failing to signal or for cutting off cyclists in this town ... my bad.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    Nope. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of those that have either died or have an illness related to their use of alcohol have started out on the basis of drinking responsibly.

    The fact remains that consuming any addicitive substance creates the inherant risk of addiction. My opinion is that this inherant risk relating to alcohol use is more dangerous than riding on the road.

    I don't disagree with your opinion, was just stating that your leading comment was exact opposite to your closing statement... lets replace a few words.

    "I have had it with all this "that's why I don't ride road bikes" crap. It is as if you people have a fair amount of contempt for roadies and/or you feel more righteous than roadies."

    to

    "I have had it with all this "that's why I don't drink" crap. It is as if you people have a fair amount of contempt for alcoholic beverage consumers and/or you feel more righteous than alcoholic beverage consumers."

    Paired with taking an extreme case of alcohol abuse and stating "that's why I never drink"....

    We all do dangerous things, hell, just living is dangerous. What precautions we take to protect ourselves and how responsible we treat those actives make a world of difference. Alcoholics may have started with a responsible intention but they didn't maintain that effort; just as I am sure the roadies in the crash started with a responsible intention but failed to maintain it.

    Regardless, it doesn't matter and I am just being picky and OT.

    For the record, I think riding is addicting....

  44. #44
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    bikes have every right to be on the roads, at their own risk just like everyone else. Why you would choose to be the slowest impediment on the road I don't know. The little bit of riding I do next to roads I spend on the sidewalk which I sure will open another can of worms. To me the risk of me hitting a pedestrian is far less then a car hitting me, and would also result in significantly less damage......... I don't see why riders would choose to be 6 inches from a car when they could be on just as smooth of a surface 3 ft away. When I see someone walkin up I have no hesitation to either stop and get out of their way, go around, or wait in a trackstand for them. is the slow curing lines of the sidewalks that scare the roadies or is it all the cracks they have to navigate with fear of popping a tire or ruining a frame?
    and the lurker returns to the dark corner

  45. #45
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    [QUOTE=ttocs]
    Please stop diminishing the rights of cyclists to the road just cause its not your thing.
    Last edited by chollaball; 08-27-2009 at 11:25 PM.
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
    Our Preserve, Our Taxes, Our Vote

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunset1123
    This is, unfortunately, the sad truth about Flag. Those signs proclaiming a 'bicycle friendly community' on the way into town were obviously put up by someone who doesn't ride here daily. Naturally, having a transient population that comes from places where bicycles on the road may not be a familiar phenomenon doesn't help.

    My list of the worst Flag offenders:

    1) Any male individual driving a large pickup truck, preferably a diesel, who will completely disregard your right to the road. You know... THEIR road... the road that they apparently gained exclusive rights to after signing the contract on their loud, smelly, obnoxious vehicle... the one that was designed to be able to haul construction materials and tow small buildings, that will never do much more than scream self-righteously around town.

    2) Those little rice-mobile operators who have apparently seen 'the fast and the furious' too many times, and now think the streets of Flag are their own personal racetrack. We have a sh!tload of cops in this town... but apparently, 50+ mph in a 35 is something you can get away with here.

    3) Drivers who seem to be in an excessive hurry. This one I just do not understand. It's a small town. You can drive the speed limit from one end to the other in less than 20 minutes. What's the rush? How about actually stopping at the signs and lights, and looking before you turn with your wheels screeching and engine roaring?

    4) College students who don't have a lot of experience behind the wheel, and are somewhat lacking in the maturity/common sense department. Oh yeah, mr. cool... you are so superior in the shiny car mommy and daddy bought you for college.


    This town is downright DANGEROUS to ride in during certain times, and it wouldn't suprise me at all to learn that the number of accidents involving cyclists has risen sharply since the return of the student population.

    Of course, much of that student population rides bicycles as well, and it might help if they decided to follow the rules too. I just about had a collision with another cyclist yesterday after I approached an intersection where he had a stop sign. I continued through the intersection expecting him to stop, but he nearly plowed right into the side of me. I yelled "stop sign!" and pointed, but he only gave me a confused look and kept riding like nothing happened.

    It is a sad story whenever accidents happen... the ones involving cyclists are usually downright tragic... it isn't going to get any better until someone figures out how to make all these tragedies stick in people's minds, so they actually give a sh!t and change their behavior.

    end rant... sorry, no intention of hijacking this thread, but this has been such a big issue up here recently that it's hard not to talk about it.

    I don't think this is quite fair. Flag is pretty bike friendly if you ask me. I commute every day and I've never even come close to being hit. I'd much rather ride around here than back home in Tukee - people here expect to see bikes, and I'd say that makes it a whole heck of a lot safer. You're right that its dangerous, and stupid people are rampant, but comparitively? Not so much. Count your blessings man, this town is a damn fine place to ride a bicycle.
    Disclaimer: Bo does not actually know anything at all.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    See this video if you want some more scary studies.

    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...ef=videosearch
    Last year I took the photo radar speeding ticket class at a local place, the lady teaching the class(ex cop) asked the question of why are there so many accidents in AZ. I answered "texting" and then got berated like a little boy by aforementioned teacher. She totally dismissed the texting thing and talked about how flat the roads are here and as the weather is always so clear people have tendency to drive faster. She went on for like five minutes with all these reasons but I remember being so pissed that she so easily ignored the texting thing.
    Maybe she might start adding it to her class!

  48. #48
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    [QUOTE=ttocs]bikes have every right to be on the roads, at their own risk just like everyone else. QUOTE]

    Did you miss the first line of my post then? All I am saying is that road riding is like a cross between you make your bed so you have to lay in it and when you play with the bull you get the horns.
    and the lurker returns to the dark corner

  49. #49
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    [QUOTE=ttocs]
    Quote Originally Posted by ttocs
    bikes have every right to be on the roads, at their own risk just like everyone else. QUOTE]

    Did you miss the first line of my post then? All I am saying is that road riding is like a cross between you make your bed so you have to lay in it and when you play with the bull you get the horns.
    come on dude! do you live in fear every waking moment?
    road riding/commuting is no more a fatal or dangerous than most other daily activities.
    Many of us ride on the roads every day, most of us follow the rules and have no drama 99% of the time. the 1% that we do have drama we usually don't die. I have been commuting consistently for over 12 years the only accident's i've had were minor and due to me being young and dumb in the loop of Chicago when I was a daily bike courrier.

    I think the "play with the bull get the horns bit" is a bit extreme. i reserve phrases like that for drag racing, sleeping with hookers, shooting smack, etc. but the make your bed bit for riding a bike on the road? where have you been for the last century?

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chongoman
    where have you been for the last century?
    riding illegally on the sidewalk
    mike

  51. #51
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    A little perspective

    When there is a bicycle accident, there is a lot of light shed on it and it makes the news. Motor vehicle accidents/fatalities and deaths caused by cancer or heart attacks are so common place that we barely take note of them anymore.

    Here is a great article that helps shed some light on the facts. Make your own personal decision, but you will still find my son and I riding on the road and dirt (when he heals up). Be safe out there!


    Is Bicycling Safe?"If you follow the rules of the road and ride carefully, cycling is actually much safer than driving." - http://www.raisethehammer.org/index.asp?id=617

    "...In addition to the direct risk of death or injury, cycling and driving also carry indirect risks that must be factored into account.

    According to a study by the British Medical Association, the average gain in "life years" through improved fitness from cycling exceeds the average loss in "life years" through cycling fatalities by a factor of 20 to 1.

    Driving confers no commensurate health benefits through improved fitness; in fact, time spent driving actually correlates with poorer overall health and higher risk of heart disease, obesity, diabetes, cancer, and related lifestyle diseases.

    Psychologically, it's hard to weigh the slight risk of being hit by a car tomorrow against the vastly reduced risk of having a heart attack in twenty years, but it is far too significant to ignore...."
    Marty

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball

    watch this if you want to be scared on the roads:
    My hands shook the entire time I watched this, and halfway through, found myself in tears. Not only do I have a teen, whose friends text while she is in the car, but I drive and text like I am sitting in coffee shop with nothing better to do. I admit it. And I do it, because I think I am JUST.THAT.GOOD at multi-tasking. Watching this was a major wake-up call to the absolute danger I am, to others, and to myself, on the road. No more. Never again. Thanks for posting this, Jason. I'm shaken-up in the best possible way. G**,, I just want to vomit. What was I THINKING?!?
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteKis
    What was I THINKING?!?

    *pinky hook*
    b

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcoplea
    When there is a bicycle accident, there is a lot of light shed on it and it makes the news. Motor vehicle accidents/fatalities and deaths caused by cancer or heart attacks are so common place that we barely take note of them anymore.

    Here is a great article that helps shed some light on the facts. Make your own personal decision, but you will still find my son and I riding on the road and dirt (when he heals up). Be safe out there!


    Is Bicycling Safe?"If you follow the rules of the road and ride carefully, cycling is actually much safer than driving." - http://www.raisethehammer.org/index.asp?id=617

    ...."[/I]
    Our society is a funny thing. People die everyday just driving their car to work. Do we stop driving our cars? People die everyday from heart attacks. Do we stop eating junk food, try to reduce stress or exercise more? Nope!!

    But when we hear about some road cycling accidents, the perception is that road cycling is huge threat to our lifes or health. Some of the facts -

    2008: 716 bicyclists were killed in traffic accidents
    2007: 698 bicyclists were killed in traffic accidents
    2006: 773 bicyclists were killed in traffic accidents

    Some more interesting stats from the Bicycle Helmet Safety Institute: http://www.bhsi.org/stats.htm

    There are 73 to 85 million bicycle riders in the US, including 44.7 million over age of 6 who rode more than six times in 2008.

    The "typical" bicyclist killed on our roads is a sober male over 16 not wearing a helmet riding on a major road between intersections in an urban area on a summer evening when hit by a car.

    So - wear a helmet, be very cautious at intersections and avoid riding on a summer evening.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bik_ryder



    So - wear a helmet, be very cautious at intersections and avoid riding on a summer evening.
    When I bought my very first Harley, the best advice I ever got, was from a friend who is a motorcycle cop. He trained me in defensive riding techniques that they are taught during training, but the thing that stuck with me, is he said, "Every time you throw a leg over that bike, respect it, respect the danger you putting yourself in, and RIDE AS IF SOMEBODY HAS BEEN ASSIGNED TO ASSASSINATE YOU THAT DAY".

    It translated to my road biking, when I bought a road bike last year. Yes, it makes for a lmore stressful and exhaustive experience, because staying so mentally engaged in your surroundings (as with on a motorcycle) is draining... but I think it's made me better, safer ride. It's a risk... yes... a calculated risk... as is gnawing a toothpick, which I could accidentally swallow, right? Stay aware, don't relax. Have respect.
    "People do not lack strength; they lack will" (Victor Hugo)

  56. #56
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    Lance Armstrong types...?

    I was checking out this article on AZCentral about the new Bike Cellar and browsed through the comments associated with this article. They provide a bit of insight into the mentality of some of the automobile drivers out there. Not quite assassination, but no hallmark cards either.

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl....html#comments

  57. #57
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    Good advise, when I am on the motorcycle I think of it as I am invisible and have to dodge all the cars that cannot see me. I constantly think about an escape route in case the car next to me changes lanes etc. I do basically the same thing since I recently started road riding, mostly bicycle commute to work one day a week 10 miles each way. Seems to be working so far

    Quote Originally Posted by CoyoteKis
    When I bought my very first Harley, the best advice I ever got, was from a friend who is a motorcycle cop. He trained me in defensive riding techniques that they are taught during training, but the thing that stuck with me, is he said, "Every time you throw a leg over that bike, respect it, respect the danger you putting yourself in, and RIDE AS IF SOMEBODY HAS BEEN ASSIGNED TO ASSASSINATE YOU THAT DAY".

    It translated to my road biking, when I bought a road bike last year. Yes, it makes for a lmore stressful and exhaustive experience, because staying so mentally engaged in your surroundings (as with on a motorcycle) is draining... but I think it's made me better, safer ride. It's a risk... yes... a calculated risk... as is gnawing a toothpick, which I could accidentally swallow, right? Stay aware, don't relax. Have respect.

  58. #58
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    more interesting stats!

    CDC Report
    Ages 18-50
    Causes of death in motor vehicle traffic, all sexes, all races
    Total Deaths: 26,299

    # of Deaths ICD Code Description
    6777 - V89 Motor-vehicle accident, type of vehicle unspecified
    2251 - V47 Car occupant injured in collision with fixed or stationary object
    2165 - V43 Car occupant injured in collision with car, pickup truck, or van
    2109 - V87 Traffic accident of specified type but victims mode of transport unknown
    1785 - V48 Car occupant injured in noncollision transport accident
    1494 - V49 Car occupant injured in other and unspecified transport accidents
    1373 - V03 Pedestrian injured in collision with car, pickup truck, or van
    1207 - V29 Motorcycle rider injured in other and unspecified transport accidents
    999 - V09 Pedestrian injured in other and unspecified transport accidents
    972 - V23 Motorcycle rider injured in collision with car, pickup truck, or van
    741 - V58 Occupant of pickup truck or van injured in noncollision transport accident
    692 - V27 Motorcycle rider injured in collision with fixed or stationary object
    593 - V57 Occupant of pickup truck or van injured in collision with fixed or stationary object
    564 - V44 Car occupant injured in collision with heavy transport vehicle or bus
    473 - V28 Motorcycle rider injured in noncollision transport accident
    371 - V53 Occupant of pickup truck or van injured in collision with car, pickup truck, or van
    231 - V86 Occupant of special ATV or other MV designed primarily for off-road use, injured in transport accident
    197 - V13 Pedal cyclist injured in collision with car, pickup truck, or van
    189 - V59 Occupant of pickup truck or van injured in other and unspecified transport accidents
    186 - V54 Occupant of pickup truck or van injured in collision with heavy transport vehicle or bus
    930 - V39 Occupant of three-wheeled motor vehicle injured in other and unspecified transport accidents

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