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  1. #1
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    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)

    Sit down, and grab a cold one. I've got something to say.

    A note to the trail Builders at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite. Not every Trail needs to be cleanable by your wheelchair-bound grandmother. I left my house today with the intention of checking out the new trail building going on at Pima and dynamite. I intended to ride about 40 miles but about 10 miles in I was convinced that all of the well-intentioned time, money, and effort put into revamping the trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and dynamite was wasted. After finding some of the wonderful old unmodified trail from Pima and dynamite I came up on some tank tracks and a noticeable change in the character of the trail. All of the sudden the wonderful bumps, berms, and natural features that made the old trail so much fun were obliterated and replaced with Bland, wide, flat, trail with tight turn radii. Any sense of flow was lost. That is, flow in the sense appreciated by great Trail Builders and Riders everywhere and in the sense made famous by Csikszentmihalyi (look him up). Instead of being engaged in riding a trail that tested my skills and kept me engrossed, my mind went numb and I started composing this Manifesto in my head. It made me wish I owned a trainer so I could be sitting on it watching March Madness instead of riding trails. That is coming from someone who lives for the 2-3 rides I can squeeze in per week. On the plus side, I concluded that the modifications at Brown's Ranch and now Pima and Dynamite will make for a great next step of progression for my 4 year olds once they have mastered the sidewalk in front of my house. I think next month they'll be ready.

    The great irony of my ride and the entire story of the trail modifications at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite became painfully apparent at about 10 miles into my ride. Despite it being one of the rare days where I had the time and freedom to ride for as long as I wanted, I was ready to cut my losses and turn around because the trails were so bland. But just at that moment I reached the north border of the Pima and Dynamite preserve. I crossed the border out of the preserve and found the Moto trails that create a wonderful web of entertaining features, rollers, berms, climbs and descents that once characterized the now obliterated trails at Pima and dynamite. It seemed as if there is an infinite network of these trails north of Pima and Dynamite. They are every bit as fun as the stuff that was ironically and tragically removed when the new trails were built with the intention of making better mountain bike trails. That being said, those trails make big scars on fragile desert land and flora and I'm sure are not sustainable. That needs to be addressed. But, there are a lot of places that are making wonderfully fun and progressive trails that are sustainable. Durango, Moab, Breckenridge, Sedona are places I've ridden that come to mind and I'm sure many others. Fun and sustainability are not mutually exclusive.

    Now, this entire Manifesto to this point reads as a critique of the good people that put time, money, effort, and sweat into creating sustainable trails for us to use. That is completely unfair. Their efforts are tremendously appreciated and clearly well-intentioned. And also to be fair, I should note that the Diablo Trails, Renegade, Wrangler and some others are really good trails at Brown's Ranch. It could be argued that the old rich people of Scottsdale somehow influenced the trail building process to create Trails intended for old rich people instead of the less influential shredders that undoubtedly make up the vast majority of users of these trails. I doubt that to be the case though. I have to take responsibility for the failure of these trails as should every other rider in the valley that did not participate in shaping the vision of what these Trails would become. I was aware of meetings that were held for this very purpose and never attended. I am not even aware of if there are any trail maintenance days and if I had been I'm sure I would not have gone. I have hardly donated any money to trail building efforts in
    The Valley.

    I have had the idea for years of creating a trail riding organization in the valley with the intent of putting Phoenix on the mountain biking map. I've never acted on any of these thoughts or opportunities. So shame on me. I have to take responsibility as all of us should if we complain about our trails. But, I am a professional, a husband, and a father of three young young children. I don't have time to spearhead such a thing. I hope someone though would take the initiative to start an organization in The Valley to make our Trails better. Phoenix has so many attributes that make it the perfect location for a world-class mountain biking destination. Mountains, dirt, rocks, tourists infrastructure, an International Airport, 364 days a year of rideable days, a huge and wealthy population to contribute time and money, a huge network of already existing great trails, and a wonderful blank canvas of desert on which a beautiful network of trails could be built. I propose we create the "PBR". Phoenix Bike Riders association. Start contacting race organizers, bike shop owners, other riders, city county and state recreational land managers. Make t-shirts, create a fundraising race, establish a presence on MTBR, do group rides, and put together ideas about how to make mountain biking in The Valley even better. Maybe such a thing already exists and I'm not aware. If so, please mention it below. If it does exist, it should be much better supported and more active, however.

    I grew up and started mountain biking in Duluth, Minnesota. Duluth is the town of less than 100,000 people. The riding season is about 90 days long once you take out the days of snow and rain. But Duluth has achieved a gold level rating from the IMBA for its trail network. That is almost entirely due to the efforts of such an association. They're called COGGS. Cyclists of Gitche Gumee (that is Ojibwe for Lake Superior) Shores. Through their efforts and the enthusiastic support of the local government, a tremendous network of trails has been built with mountain bikers in mind and the general public also benefiting as they can also use the trails for hiking, cross-country skiing, or snowshoeing. This is a town in the middle of nowhere, with horrible weather, a tiny population, difficult to access for anyone living outside the region, and a little disposable income in both the private and public sectors. If they can do it, why couldn't we here in Phoenix when we have all the advantages inherent to our location, population, wealth, and climate.

    So, I hope somebody will read this who has the time, will, and vision to move on the idea. Lamentably, I don't at this point in my life. I would gladly contribute money and the little time that I have though if such an effort is initiated. If you lasted this long, thanks for listening to my rant. I hope it inspires you to be more proactive than I have been.

  2. #2
    Meatbomb
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    Would someone let me know if he liked the new trails or not....

  3. #3
    Life's a ride, enjoy it! Moderator
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    Well he worked Sedona into it somehow so I think Switch will be along shortly to tell us.
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  4. #4
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    Cool, one less rider on the trails in Browns Ranch.

  5. #5
    Meatbomb
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    I take he was not happy with his user experience....

  6. #6
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    Pretty sure they are not done out there. People these days can find anything to complain about. There is a bunch of great stuff out there and it just gets better. Yes it changes, that is what they call life.
    "You either want to or you don't."

  7. #7
    I am Walt
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    So what tires would you recommend running?


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  8. #8
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    Since you seem to know what kind of trails you like, and where to find them, why biatch about Browns? I hear it's really nice in Duluth this time of year.
    Veni vidi velo!

  9. #9
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    Way tldr.

  10. #10
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    Get involved and learn about the process?

  11. #11
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    At least clean the PIT TOILET
    "We'll ride it until they pave it."

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  12. #12
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    OP, rather than starting your own 501C you could consider joining your friendly local advocacy group. Desert Foothills Mountain Bike Association

  13. #13
    Low speed, High Drag
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    TL;DR

    In a state with practically every kind of riding available to you, why would you complain about Browns Ranch?? Just go ride somewhere else.
    I need a cool saying to put here.

  14. #14
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    It’s called DFMBA, look it up.

    And realistically, Stagecoach south from the power lines back down to Malpais is ****ing awesome for flow and is pretty much my favorite trail out there right now. No matter what I am riding that day, I try to work that 5 miles into my loop.

    Sorry the free trails and access didn’t live up to your expectations. And by the way, the moto trails north of the boundary suck for mountain biking, unless you’re into pedaling through rutted out sand pits. Sounds like you are, may I suggest that you just start parking at the power lines off of Bartlett Dam road?


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  15. #15
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    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-well-they-cant-all-winners-now-can-they.jpg

  16. #16
    Meatbomb
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    Troll thread...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtbyte View Post
    Pretty sure they are not done out there. People these days can find anything to complain about. There is a bunch of great stuff out there and it just gets better. Yes it changes, that is what they call life.
    I have heard that they plan to do some more stuff like the diablo trails in the newly built sections. That would be wonderful. Don't get me wrong, there definitely are good trails out there. It is just a bummer when the stuff that has been taken out is not replaced by better stuff.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    OP, rather than starting your own 501C you could consider joining your friendly local advocacy group. Desert Foothills Mountain Bike Association
    Thanks. I will check that out. I appreciate it.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevhogaz View Post
    TL;DR

    In a state with practically every kind of riding available to you, why would you complain about Browns Ranch?? Just go ride somewhere else.
    Certainly I do do that. I love Hawes, SoMo, PMP, BCT, parts of Gold's Ranch. And another fair critisim is that those are trails that are best suited to a different type of rider than Browns. Of course it makes sense to have a wide range of trails in terms of technical challenges to suit different styles of riders. I guess my complaint about Brown's, however, is that even for XC trails, the new stuff could have been laid out in such a way that one can maintain speed better. I feel like I am constantly accelerating out of turns only to have to break heavily before another off-camber, loose turn with a turn radius that is too tight to keep up a good speed. Certainly I could work on my cornering too! But, I am a fairly skilled rider so I think it is a valid criticism. At the very least, I can say I've ridden a lot of other XC trails that have been built in recent years in other locations that are laid out so that maintaining speed and flow is much easier.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by blaklabl View Post
    It’s called DFMBA, look it up.

    And realistically, Stagecoach south from the power lines back down to Malpais is ****ing awesome for flow and is pretty much my favorite trail out there right now. No matter what I am riding that day, I try to work that 5 miles into my loop.

    Sorry the free trails and access didn’t live up to your expectations. And by the way, the moto trails north of the boundary suck for mountain biking, unless you’re into pedaling through rutted out sand pits. Sounds like you are, may I suggest that you just start parking at the power lines off of Bartlett Dam road?


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    I am going to check out DFMBR. Another poster mentioned that and it might be what I'm looking for.

    I agree that coming down Stagecoach is good stuff. I may have come down too heavy handedly as I dictated my rant on my way home from the ride when I was still kind of hot on the subject. I do certainly appreciate many trails at Brown's. Also, I absolutely do appreciate the efforts of those that were involved in making it all happen. I guess I am just saying that I would have done it a bit differently.

    I appreciate all the voices going to bat for Brown's too. It certainly may just be a case of different strokes for different folks. If there is a big population of riders that are happy with it, I think it is great the way it is the way it is.

    I guess the idea (which clearly was thought long before I gave my 2 cents) of having organizations like DFMBR is so that these opinions can be shared and action can be taken on the will of the riders to make the best experience possible for he most riders. If that is what happened at Brown's and the outcome met that need, I can't complain. Furthermore, I'll still ride Brown's and P and D for the trails I do like out there from time to time.

  21. #21
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    I just checked out DFMBA and it looks fabulous. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I'm going to join and donate. Maybe some others reading this might do the same. It sounds like they are doing great work.

  22. #22
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    Some valid points KR. For me its a break from the rocky more technical PMP I mostly ride but it would be nice to have some very fast trails at BR but guessing that was done intentional to keep us from becoming a hazard to the other trail users and there is a fair amount of newbie and very young bike riders.

    It is what it is...

  23. #23
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    Rode Yucca for the first time today... definitely not a winner.. still overall had an enjoyable ride today

  24. #24
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    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)

    Where’s the best place to get an updated on line map of Brown’s with he new trails?


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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecanoe View Post
    Where’s the best place to get an updated on line map of Brown’s with he new trails?


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    This doesn't have any of the new new stuff that they just started this spring.

    http://www.scottsdaleaz.gov/Assets/S...+Trail+Map.pdf

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by seandm View Post
    This doesn't have any of the new new stuff that they just started this spring.

    http://www.scottsdaleaz.gov/Assets/S...+Trail+Map.pdf
    Wouldn’t Trailforks have all the current trails listed. Whenever they build something new or Reroute a trail in Sedona I go out and GPS the new trail. Who is the TD at Browns Ranch?

    That reminds me I have to go out and GPS the reroutes on the previously rerouted Tea Cup trail near the northeast end. The rerouted section has now been rerouted so the downhill is mostly downhill.

  27. #27
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    Half of fun of riding is getting lost and going on an adventure. I spent the last two years at Browns purposely getting lost on old legacy trails and trying to tie all the best ones together into a route.

    Yesterday, I rode the route I enjoy that is mostly older trails and trails on State Trust Land. I brought along a person who stated they have been very involved in the planning process at Brown's. I don't believe this person was all that involved because they were completely unaware of the City of Scottsdale eradicating trails on State Trust Land. They told me it was't happening, so I had to take them to a dozen places where it had just happened. I mention this person only because I think many of the people who do get involved are just like this person. I told them I was taking them out on a route I like because it is mostly intermediate level trails. Nothing boring and yet nothing dangerous. Well, there is some optional rock challenges that are somewhat dangerous. We left Hackamore Trail and diverted onto an old trail that took us down to the big rock pile. This person dismounted and walked the first uphill challenge that goes through a narrow gap between large boulders. Then they got off and walked the second and third challenges. This went on for hours. They told me they were a skilled rider, and yet a bunch of intermediate challenges spooked them. So they went on to say this route was awful and poorly designed and unsustainable. I told them I loved this route and found it a lot of fun and I have never dabbed any on it, and these unsustainable trails that they said were poorly designed by motorcycle guys, are 35 years old and have never had trail maintenance done to them. That seems like they have been very sustainable. Sure, a lot of them go straight up over hills and trail builders today avoid that. But Phoenix gets so little rain that these trails have stood up well despite the steeper grades. We went off easy drops and ledges and short steep climbs and every time I looked back, I saw this person walking their bike.

    By the time we got over to the State Trust Land, I told them the best trails on my route were inside of this parcel. By then, they were tired and wanted to rest. It reminded me of a movie scene I watched last week. It was an old WWII movie called The Train. The Germans tried to steal precious art and take it back to Germany. Burt Lancaster and other French resistance members tried to stop them. At the end, there is a showdown with
    Labiche (Lancaster) and the German Colonel von Waldheim (Paul Scofield). Von Waldheim says;

    Here's your prize Labiche, some of the greatest paintings in the world. Does it please you, Labiche? Does it give you a sense of excitement just being near them? A painting means as much to you as a string of pearls to an ape.

    You stopped me without knowing what you were doing or why. You are nothing Labiche; A lump of flesh. The paintings are mine, they always will be. Beauty belongs to the man who can appreciate it. It will always belong to me or to a man like me.
    That is how I feel about the Browns Ranch Preserve and the trails on nearby State Trust Land. I get a sense of excitement just being on them. I appreciate what they offer to mountain bikers. Sadly, I also believe there are people who do not appreciate a well built trail or a well designed trail system. They do not understand the thrill in riding a challenging route. They are the apes that have been given pearls.

    The State Trust Land parcel will get auctioned off this year, I am told. Those great trails will be nothing but a memory. The old motor trails west of Hackamore and north of Pima /Dynamite will gradually be replaced by adequate beginner and intermediate level trails the preserve designs to be sustainable. I plan to ride them a lot and enjoy them a lot.

    There is talk of a farewell ride this Saturday at Brown's Ranch. It will begin with a toast to honor the motorcycle guys who created so many of the original trails out there and be followed with a ride that will showcase the best of what they left behind for us to enjoy a few more days or weeks or months before they will be eradicated and replaced. Anyone interested is invited.

  28. #28
    The .05 percent
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Way tldr.
    But how were the pit toilets?
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    Half of fun of riding is getting lost and going on an adventure. I spent the last two years at Browns purposely getting lost on old legacy trails and trying to tie all the best ones together into a route.

    Yesterday, I rode the route I enjoy that is mostly older trails and trails on State Trust Land. I brought along a person who stated they have been very involved in the planning process at Brown's. I don't believe this person was all that involved because they were completely unaware of the City of Scottsdale eradicating trails on State Trust Land. They told me it was't happening, so I had to take them to a dozen places where it had just happened. I mention this person only because I think many of the people who do get involved are just like this person. I told them I was taking them out on a route I like because it is mostly intermediate level trails. Nothing boring and yet nothing dangerous. Well, there is some optional rock challenges that are somewhat dangerous. We left Hackamore Trail and diverted onto an old trail that took us down to the big rock pile. This person dismounted and walked the first uphill challenge that goes through a narrow gap between large boulders. Then they got off and walked the second and third challenges. This went on for hours. They told me they were a skilled rider, and yet a bunch of intermediate challenges spooked them. So they went on to say this route was awful and poorly designed and unsustainable. I told them I loved this route and found it a lot of fun and I have never dabbed any on it, and these unsustainable trails that they said were poorly designed by motorcycle guys, are 35 years old and have never had trail maintenance done to them. That seems like they have been very sustainable. Sure, a lot of them go straight up over hills and trail builders today avoid that. But Phoenix gets so little rain that these trails have stood up well despite the steeper grades. We went off easy drops and ledges and short steep climbs and every time I looked back, I saw this person walking their bike.

    By the time we got over to the State Trust Land, I told them the best trails on my route were inside of this parcel. By then, they were tired and wanted to rest. It reminded me of a movie scene I watched last week. It was an old WWII movie called The Train. The Germans tried to steal precious art and take it back to Germany. Burt Lancaster and other French resistance members tried to stop them. At the end, there is a showdown with
    Labiche (Lancaster) and the German Colonel von Waldheim (Paul Scofield). Von Waldheim says;



    That is how I feel about the Browns Ranch Preserve and the trails on nearby State Trust Land. I get a sense of excitement just being on them. I appreciate what they offer to mountain bikers. Sadly, I also believe there are people who do not appreciate a well built trail or a well designed trail system. They do not understand the thrill in riding a challenging route. They are the apes that have been given pearls.

    The State Trust Land parcel will get auctioned off this year, I am told. Those great trails will be nothing but a memory. The old motor trails west of Hackamore and north of Pima /Dynamite will gradually be replaced by adequate beginner and intermediate level trails the preserve designs to be sustainable. I plan to ride them a lot and enjoy them a lot.

    There is talk of a farewell ride this Saturday at Brown's Ranch. It will begin with a toast to honor the motorcycle guys who created so many of the original trails out there and be followed with a ride that will showcase the best of what they left behind for us to enjoy a few more days or weeks or months before they will be eradicated and replaced. Anyone interested is invited.
    Glad to see there are sympathizers out there also. I would love to make that ride. What time and which trailhead?

    If it is indeed true that the State Trust land is auctioned off, it's fate would not HAVE to mirror that of BR. I think if we get involved, maybe through the DFMBA, we can have a say in the outcome.

    It sounds like the guy you rode with is an innocent beginner rider but ignorant of what type of trails experienced riders like. Furthermore, he would enjoy a green level flowy trail more than the typical BR fare, but he doesn't know it. Then, you take that green level flowy trail and add 10 or 15 optional B lines that take advantage of the natural features (think, Hackamore + Diablo love child) that experienced riders would appreciate and you have world class trails.

    I cannot remember how many times I was riding out at BR and passed a rock slab or drop or roller or hill that I could have touched from the trail but the flat featureless trail passes right by it as if it wasn't there. If those things are incorporated as optional B lines it would make a huge difference and cost very little to modify the current trails. I am not a proponent of doing this in a way that is unsustainable or as a unilateral decision by riders. I'll admit I am not aware of what needs to be avoided to prevent soil erosion or what might damage flora. But, if the riders can engage with the land managers in the building process, these things can be done sustainably and with spectacular results.

    If anyone reads this that is at this ride on Saturday, please bring it up if you like the idea. The more we talk about it the more involvement we will get and the more we can make happen.

  30. #30
    Just A Mountain Biker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    Half of fun of riding is getting lost and going on an adventure. I spent the last two years at Browns purposely getting lost on old legacy trails and trying to tie all the best ones together into a route.

    Yesterday, I rode the route I enjoy that is mostly older trails and trails on State Trust Land. I brought along a person who stated they have been very involved in the planning process at Brown's. I don't believe this person was all that involved because they were completely unaware of the City of Scottsdale eradicating trails on State Trust Land. They told me it was't happening, so I had to take them to a dozen places where it had just happened. I mention this person only because I think many of the people who do get involved are just like this person. I told them I was taking them out on a route I like because it is mostly intermediate level trails. Nothing boring and yet nothing dangerous. Well, there is some optional rock challenges that are somewhat dangerous. We left Hackamore Trail and diverted onto an old trail that took us down to the big rock pile. This person dismounted and walked the first uphill challenge that goes through a narrow gap between large boulders. Then they got off and walked the second and third challenges. This went on for hours. They told me they were a skilled rider, and yet a bunch of intermediate challenges spooked them. So they went on to say this route was awful and poorly designed and unsustainable. I told them I loved this route and found it a lot of fun and I have never dabbed any on it, and these unsustainable trails that they said were poorly designed by motorcycle guys, are 35 years old and have never had trail maintenance done to them. That seems like they have been very sustainable. Sure, a lot of them go straight up over hills and trail builders today avoid that. But Phoenix gets so little rain that these trails have stood up well despite the steeper grades. We went off easy drops and ledges and short steep climbs and every time I looked back, I saw this person walking their bike.

    By the time we got over to the State Trust Land, I told them the best trails on my route were inside of this parcel. By then, they were tired and wanted to rest. It reminded me of a movie scene I watched last week. It was an old WWII movie called The Train. The Germans tried to steal precious art and take it back to Germany. Burt Lancaster and other French resistance members tried to stop them. At the end, there is a showdown with
    Labiche (Lancaster) and the German Colonel von Waldheim (Paul Scofield). Von Waldheim says;



    That is how I feel about the Browns Ranch Preserve and the trails on nearby State Trust Land. I get a sense of excitement just being on them. I appreciate what they offer to mountain bikers. Sadly, I also believe there are people who do not appreciate a well built trail or a well designed trail system. They do not understand the thrill in riding a challenging route. They are the apes that have been given pearls.

    The State Trust Land parcel will get auctioned off this year, I am told. Those great trails will be nothing but a memory. The old motor trails west of Hackamore and north of Pima /Dynamite will gradually be replaced by adequate beginner and intermediate level trails the preserve designs to be sustainable. I plan to ride them a lot and enjoy them a lot.

    There is talk of a farewell ride this Saturday at Brown's Ranch. It will begin with a toast to honor the motorcycle guys who created so many of the original trails out there and be followed with a ride that will showcase the best of what they left behind for us to enjoy a few more days or weeks or months before they will be eradicated and replaced. Anyone interested is invited.
    For the record I was NOT the rider BB took for a cruise yesterday


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  31. #31
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    Here is a link to the page for donations to DFMBA.

    Join DFMBA | Desert Foothills Mountain Bike Association

    I noticed you get a free pare of socks if you donate $50. Check it out. You can join and split your donation between IMBA and DFMBA or give 100% to DFMBA.

    I also noticed that that is an organization for Scottsdale and Cave Creek but not other parts of the valley. Anyone know of organizations in other parts of the valley?

  32. #32
    Just another half mile...
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    Don't' fret everyone, good things are coming! There will be tight intermediate trails routed through the boulders piles, routes utilizing existing trails, rock slab techi sections and more. Some will get built this season, and others are still in the route flagging review stage to be built next season.

    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-29366481_10204203362801066_3119263579753152512_o.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalroot View Post
    Here is a link to the page for donations to DFMBA.

    Join DFMBA | Desert Foothills Mountain Bike Association

    I noticed you get a free pare of socks if you donate $50. Check it out. You can join and split your donation between IMBA and DFMBA or give 100% to DFMBA.

    I also noticed that that is an organization for Scottsdale and Cave Creek but not other parts of the valley. Anyone know of organizations in other parts of the valley?
    Answering my own question...

    There is the West Valley Trail Alliance as well.

    West Valley Trail Alliance – Kick-Ass Trails in the West Valley metro Phoenix area

    Check it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    Don't' fret everyone, good things are coming! There will be tight intermediate trails routed through the boulders piles, routes utilizing existing trails, rock slab techi sections and more. Some will get built this season, and others are still in the route flagging review stage to be built next season.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Good man! Who are you and where are you getting this wonderful info? Do you have some access to or input on the trail building process?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    But how were the pit toilets?
    You are embarrassing yourself, even more than usual. When I first spoke to you, many years ago, you had been riding on Christmas Tree Trail while it was muddy, causing substantial damage. You tried to make excuses and said maybe you'd do some volunteer work to make up for it. You have been a permanent fixture in the peanut gallery ever since. Run along and spare us the childlike banter or I'll ask Raising Arizona to spank you before he puts you to bed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kalroot View Post
    Glad to see there are sympathizers out there also. I would love to make that ride. What time and which trailhead?

    If it is indeed true that the State Trust land is auctioned off, it's fate would not HAVE to mirror that of BR. I think if we get involved, maybe through the DFMBA, we can have a say in the outcome.

    It sounds like the guy you rode with is an innocent beginner rider but ignorant of what type of trails experienced riders like. Furthermore, he would enjoy a green level flowy trail more than the typical BR fare, but he doesn't know it. Then, you take that green level flowy trail and add 10 or 15 optional B lines that take advantage of the natural features (think, Hackamore + Diablo love child) that experienced riders would appreciate and you have world class trails.

    I cannot remember how many times I was riding out at BR and passed a rock slab or drop or roller or hill that I could have touched from the trail but the flat featureless trail passes right by it as if it wasn't there. If those things are incorporated as optional B lines it would make a huge difference and cost very little to modify the current trails. I am not a proponent of doing this in a way that is unsustainable or as a unilateral decision by riders. I'll admit I am not aware of what needs to be avoided to prevent soil erosion or what might damage flora. But, if the riders can engage with the land managers in the building process, these things can be done sustainably and with spectacular results.

    If anyone reads this that is at this ride on Saturday, please bring it up if you like the idea. The more we talk about it the more involvement we will get and the more we can make happen.
    Let me make something clear kairoot, I don't know you and I don't like you. Just because I have some issues with the lack of transparency at Brown's and the bogus explanations I got from Epic rider about how the City of Scottsdale was doing mountain bikers a favor by destroying trails on State Trust Land that were going to get destroyed by developers anyway, doesn't mean I embrace the nonsense you spew. You admitted you aren't involved and won't ever be involved. You tried to say the trails at Browns are more suitable for your 4-year-old. Brown's Ranch has been under development for years. Unless you just moved here, you failed yourself by ignoring what was being done out there when they asked for input. I like what I'm seeing built as part of Phase 3 and will ride trails on State Trust Lands right up to the day they fence it off and plow all the great trails. I'll try to be somewhat diplomatic towards DFMBA. But if you were paying any attention at all, you'd see they posted one message on their blog back in 2015, and that was the last time they interacted with riders. They will likely end their relationship with IMBA, and rightly so. They put on a fantastic C4 race each year and will continue to do so. But they are not players who influence land managers in a way they create stacked looped trail systems. Epic Rider was our last best hope for advanced level trails and we should thank him for fighting the good fight, considering the hikers and the conservancy can't stand us.

    If you don't know where to find the more challenging trails at Brown's Ranch and on nearby trails, you simply haven't put in the time to find them. Despite the over abundance of beginner trails made for old hikers, there are many trails all of us expert level riders enjoy a lot. You clearly will never get involved in trail advocacy, so just go ride more and stay out of the black hole of trying to advocate for mountain bikers. It's above your pay grade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    Let me make something clear kairoot, I don't know you and I don't like you. Just because I have some issues with the lack of transparency at Brown's and the bogus explanations I got from Epic rider about how the City of Scottsdale was doing mountain bikers a favor by destroying trails on State Trust Land that were going to get destroyed by developers anyway, doesn't mean I embrace the nonsense you spew. You admitted you aren't involved and won't ever be involved. You tried to say the trails at Browns are more suitable for your 4-year-old. Brown's Ranch has been under development for years. Unless you just moved here, you failed yourself by ignoring what was being done out there when they asked for input. I like what I'm seeing built as part of Phase 3 and will ride trails on State Trust Lands right up to the day they fence it off and plow all the great trails. I'll try to be somewhat diplomatic towards DFMBA. But if you were paying any attention at all, you'd see they posted one message on their blog back in 2015, and that was the last time they interacted with riders. They will likely end their relationship with IMBA, and rightly so. They put on a fantastic C4 race each year and will continue to do so. But they are not players who influence land managers in a way they create stacked looped trail systems. Epic Rider was our last best hope for advanced level trails and we should thank him for fighting the good fight, considering the hikers and the conservancy can't stand us.

    If you don't know where to find the more challenging trails at Brown's Ranch and on nearby trails, you simply haven't put in the time to find them. Despite the over abundance of beginner trails made for old hikers, there are many trails all of us expert level riders enjoy a lot. You clearly will never get involved in trail advocacy, so just go ride more and stay out of the black hole of trying to advocate for mountain bikers. It's above your pay grade.
    Maybe that is good advice. I can see such efforts can make one jaded.

  38. #38
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    I can provide a little insight into the politics at Brown's and the Preserve. But I'm not really sure what Boris and Kalroot are fighting about so who knows if I'm addressing their points. The Preserve trails are built via the City, which is catering to the greatest common denominator and a median age of 46. They have nodded to those who want challenges, but its largely a reflection imo of the voices on the Preserve Commission and Conservancy which are vastly older and more hiker-centric groups. I think the feeling is the southern parts of the Preserve provide challenges, Browns is more for mass appeal.

    Meanwhile, there is a small special-interest group in the City attempting to grab $68,000,000 of the future $125,000,000 Preserve Fund surplus (which won't be collected for 15 more years) to build a tourist event center at Gateway TH, claiming its only fair for all those who cant ride or hike. You are not going to get political support for advanced trails when Preserve advocates are busy trying to save the Preserve from commercial development and NOT be accused of catering to bikers and hikers only. Even though advanced trails cost very little to build, its just not going to happen when even those who would appreciate them are trying to defend against challenges of inequality and lack of access from well-funded PR firms. Get it? the Preserve's biggest advocates trend older, the Preserve's biggest parasites are claiming everything there is unfair.

    Browns is a fantastic alternative to much of what's in the Valley, but its not for everyone. Its a great place to teach kids, even if Kalroot is a few years off because I guarantee his 4 yo will end up in cholla. Took mine til she was about 7 to have a decent ride there. Personally I would love to see a few more miles of truly challenging terrain, but that's just not what is happening there. Goto other systems and quit complaining - Browns offers a very nice version of beginner\intermediate riding.

    Meanwhile, I hope all Scottsdale voters have signed our ballot initiative to bring the Desert Discovery Center to a public vote and prevent City Council and their special interest donors from pissing away $68M in our taxes on a pet project the citizens dont want. protectourpreservepac.com
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
    Our Preserve, Our Taxes, Our Vote

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    Cholla has been riding the south parts of the Preserve for many years. He hast a great understanding of how politics has played a role in the design of the trail system. I have been told by someone who worked at the Preserve when the southern trails were built over the passes and was shocked to hear them say they stood around and watched the builder go straight up Windgate Pass, despite orders to build a less steep trail. I found it hard to believe they were incapable of verifying a flag line and seeing to it their builder followed it. Think of what it costs to create the Brown's Ranch part of the preserve. All the planning and hiring an experienced trail builder. Yet if you were there when it got started, you'd have seen a couple warning signs that the City of Scottsdale did not have the right people managing the efforts. The hired a trail builder unfamiliar with Arizona terrain and the annual small amounts of annual rainfall we get here. The guy came from the northwest, where you have to build trails to hold up to a lot of rain. He is not a mountain biker and did not factor in the higher speeds bikes move at and then design turns accordingly. Then the city also failed to do the simple stuff like build a parking lot with room to accommodate vehicle with bike racks hanging off the back. A lot meant to hold 200 vehicles (my guess) can hold maybe 120, because there isn't enough room to park nose to nose as intended. They tell me they will do it right when they build at Pima / Dynamite. Cholla mentions a median age of 46. The bulk of the hikers and conservancy blue-shirts are over 65. Mountain bikers make up an estimated 40% of all users at Browns, yet they are considered a nuisance by most of the conservancy volunteers. The goal of the City is to get us to relocate to the Pima / Dynamite trailhead when it is completed and keep our distance from the older hikers using the main trailhead.

    I really enjoy riding at Brown's Ranch. I understand that on the weekends it is best for mountain bikers to head as far away from the trailheads as possible to avoid conflicts with other users. I can ride on a bust Saturday and not see more than a few other users. I also think the trail builder is now a different person than he was when he was first hired. The turns don't force you to scrub off so much speed. The site lines allow for safer travel as speed. The corners are often banked. His latest work on Corridor B has actual intermediate level challenges, and I understand they will allow riders to use the expert level challenges at the rock pile area when they officially open trails around it. And if riders are not big fans of equestrians, they can take comfort in knowing that equestrians only make up maybe 1-2% of all users, and they try to do their rides on weekdays to avoid conflicts with other users.

    We really have it great out at Brown's Ranch.

    I can't speak to the other issue Cholla brought up about the Discovery Center. I'm aware of it and have viewed the site of those opposing it. If I used the southern trails in the Preserve as much as Cholla does, I'd probably have more to say about it.

  40. #40
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    Boris ___Not sure if I can make the Saturday ride, youth sports................

    Cholla____I happily signed the petition at Gateway TH a few weeks ago. I saw many of my neighbors signing a week or two ago at Ironwood Village park. Great stuff!!
    Less f*cks to give every passing day, use them well. - geraldooka

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    On the plus side other than el diablo you can leave your helmet in your vehicle...

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    Browns ranch and Scottsdale in general is a big fricking joke. Worst use of land I have seen. Lets dsroy and block off perfectly good and sustainable trails with shityy no flow garbage yeah that's an improvement. Lets pat ourselves on the back for spending millions on on trail head FFS its a trailhead. Luckily all the moto have cut better and new trails in and if you know where to go look they are a blast to ride if you can find them. That whole area is a mess and the tonto is becoming one big land grab for development and all anyone cares about is there own selfish little user groups agenda the moto will never leave and no matter what gets closed motors can burn in new trails faster than they can close them so go figure nothing better than the sounds of 2 strokers and honestly the OHV crowd brings in money and does more advocy than any selfish mtn biker hiker or horsey rider I'm done laters

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    All that wasted money and the new trails suck!! Way to go!!

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    Mtbrs are some the most entitled on the trail more than the horses even I always make sure to bring out the 2 stroke and busy weekends just for them!! During the week however moto s still poach and ride all the good stuff and are cutting new a better trails further out luckily the are a little to far out for the Mtbrs to access brraaaaapppppppp!!!!

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    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-gaf-copy.jpg

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    Ok, so here’s my current bitch about the new area. So the new trailhead gates have to be manually locked at 5pm, so if you’re not out by then you’re locked in and have to call Scottsdale PD to come open the gate back up. (Who knows if that will involve some kind of fine?). So now they have gone along and posted No Parking signs along Pima by the Dixileta step over gate, so parking there also possibly/probably gets you a ticket. So with it staying lighter longer, option is to drive back up to the other trailheads that they were trying to take the pressure off of with the new area. Wtf.


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  48. #48
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    The city is waiting to get power to the electric gates. Once they are connected the gates will open and close at the normal times.

    If you really need to park at P&D, park along the east bound side or off in the dirt at the SE corner were we used to park back in the day.


    Quote Originally Posted by blaklabl View Post
    Ok, so here’s my current bitch about the new area. So the new trailhead gates have to be manually locked at 5pm, so if you’re not out by then you’re locked in and have to call Scottsdale PD to come open the gate back up. (Who knows if that will involve some kind of fine?). So now they have gone along and posted No Parking signs along Pima by the Dixileta step over gate, so parking there also possibly/probably gets you a ticket. So with it staying lighter longer, option is to drive back up to the other trailheads that they were trying to take the pressure off of with the new area. Wtf.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    The city is waiting to get power to the electric gates. Once they are connected the gates will open and close at the normal times.

    If you really need to park at P&D, park along the east bound side or off in the dirt at the SE corner were we used to park back in the day.
    I figured as much, it just made my ride feel rushed because I had to have an eye on the clock the whole time to be back down there by 5 to be able to get out. My fault (I guess) for not starting until 3pm.
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    Perfect moto weatherA Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-screenshot_2018-03-28-19-22-14.jpg

  51. #51
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    Yes it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comeatmebro View Post
    Perfect moto weatherClick image for larger version. 

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    Yawn.....OK.....I'm more concerned about whether you observed proper trail etiquette.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    Yawn.....OK.....I'm more concerned about whether you observed proper trail etiquette.
    Ill shut the moto off and take off my helmet off for the horses

  54. #54
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    Do you have the goat gear on your Trail 90?

    Quote Originally Posted by Comeatmebro View Post
    Ill shut the moto off and take off my helmet off for the horses

  55. #55
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    Another new trail

    I just rode some new trail today that was cut this or last week. Parallels Powerline #1 and Axle Grease, right down the middle. Not sure what the name is yet. Trail looks promising, with some interesting boulder navigation and a few nice berms. Nothing too challenging, but applies to almost off of Brown's Ranch. Time to ride it in!

    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-new-trail.jpg
    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-gila-monster.jpg

  56. #56
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    Looks sweet...
    For a trailhead twenty minutes from my house I'll take it..
    Quote Originally Posted by DrHog View Post
    I just rode some new trail today that was cut this or last week. Parallels Powerline #1 and Axle Grease, right down the middle. Not sure what the name is yet. Trail looks promising, with some interesting boulder navigation and a few nice berms. Nothing too challenging, but applies to almost off of Brown's Ranch. Time to ride it in!

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    I also got out on the new Corridor B trail this morning. They are waiting for rain before they can tamp down the loose tread, so expect it to be sloppy for a while. This one particular spot has a knuckle grinder that will need to be addressed. If you try to ride through the gap, your hand will get ground into the boulder. I spoke to the builder, who was aware of the problem, and he plans to modify the high side of the gap so you don't have to dismount and walk your bike through. Overall, he did a great job of making an intermediate level trail. It's not a high-speed run like some other trails. It is very twisty and winds around a lot of rock formations until you get to the west end where it dumps you under the power lines, about a half mile from the new Pima / Dynamite Trail Head.

    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-coridor-b.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    I also got out on the new Corridor B trail this morning. They are waiting for rain before they can tamp down the loose tread, so expect it to be sloppy for a while. This one particular spot has a knuckle grinder that will need to be addressed. If you try to ride through the gap, your hand will get ground into the boulder. I spoke to the builder, who was aware of the problem, and he plans to modify the high side of the gap so you don't have to dismount and walk your bike through. Overall, he did a great job of making an intermediate level trail. It's not a high-speed run like some other trails. It is very twisty and winds around a lot of rock formations until you get to the west end where it dumps you under the power lines, about a half mile from the new Pima / Dynamite Trail Head.

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    Did they finish the rest of the trail just next to it at the powerline exit going towards trail "D"?

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    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-page7image2258686624.jpg

    The northeast end of Corridor B begins near the west end of Hawknest, if you continue riding uphill a quarter mile and then make a right turn and go 75 feet to the left-hand Y in the trail.

    Corridor F on the map above may be complete. I'm not sure. There is a pre-existing trail there they might plan to groom a bit and call it Corridor F.

    I think Corridor D is also a pre-existing trail that is already in place to where it intersects with Corridor B. Beyond that, it will need to be constructed to meet up with Axle Grease.

    The map above shows Corridor B running all the way west to the Pima / Dynamite parking lot. Technically, once you reach Corridor L, that connects you to Axle Grease, the remaining Corridor B trail is currently a wide dirt road, the last half mile to the parking lot.

    G, J, and H are all done. G is just an access trail coming from Legends, just like J. I suppose G will be named Malpais Trail, since it connects to it. 30 feet after you leave the sidewalk in Legends and get onto that trail, there is a State Land sign saying "No Trespassing" and that you must have a permit to ride it. I'm fairly certain that less than 1 out of 1000 people using that trail will have purchased a permit. But when was the last time you saw a State Land employee checking trail users for permits?

    After my ride today, I met with Brown's Ranch managers and a State Land representative. I also ran into the trail builder while on my morning ride and spoke to him, thanking him for his hard work and improved designs that are closer to intermediate skill level. I feel the Preserve is in good hands and these people are serving us well. We should thank them every chance we get.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
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    The northeast end of Corridor B begins near the west end of Hawknest, if you continue riding uphill a quarter mile and then make a right turn and go 75 feet to the left-hand Y in the trail.

    Corridor F on the map above may be complete. I'm not sure. There is a pre-existing trail there they might plan to groom a bit and call it Corridor F.

    I think Corridor D is also a pre-existing trail that is already in place to where it intersects with Corridor B. Beyond that, it will need to be constructed to meet up with Axle Grease.

    The map above shows Corridor B running all the way west to the Pima / Dynamite parking lot. Technically, once you reach Corridor L, that connects you to Axle Grease, the remaining Corridor B trail is currently a wide dirt road, the last half mile to the parking lot.

    G, J, and H are all done. G is just an access trail coming from Legends, just like J. I suppose G will be named Malpais Trail, since it connects to it. 30 feet after you leave the sidewalk in Legends and get onto that trail, there is a State Land sign saying "No Trespassing" and that you must have a permit to ride it. I'm fairly certain that less than 1 out of 1000 people using that trail will have purchased a permit. But when was the last time you saw a State Land employee checking trail users for permits?

    After my ride today, I met with Brown's Ranch managers and a State Land representative. I also ran into the trail builder while on my morning ride and spoke to him, thanking him for his hard work and improved designs that are closer to intermediate skill level. I feel the Preserve is in good hands and these people are serving us well. We should thank them every chance we get.
    Thanks for the rundown, Boris. I think I took "F" today, called "Back of Cone" on Trailforks. From there I met up with the new "B" trail and rolled S. Do you know if B continues N of F at this point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrHog View Post
    Thanks for the rundown, Boris. I think I took "F" today, called "Back of Cone" on Trailforks. From there I met up with the new "B" trail and rolled S. Do you know if B continues N of F at this point?
    Yes it does. It goes all the way to "G", almost. The two trails do not connect directly. When you are riding west of Hawknest to the end of the trail, there is now a new trail right in front of you that is like a continuation of Hawknest, but it starts climbing for about a quarter mile to a junction. If you turn left, you can ride a half mile to meet up with Cone Mountain. If you turn right, you will see a "Y" in about 75 feet. If you take the left there, you are now on the beginning of "B" trail.

    When "B" goes under the power line, after about a mile, it could be confusing which way to go since there are multiple trails braided in several directions. Just stay on course, going straight ahead and you will still be in "B".

    I ride several other trails not part of the current Brown's Ranch official trail system that I prefer to "B", but it is a great design and has some technical challenges. I led a group of about 35 riders last Saturday on a route I created after two years of exploring old legacy trails on the Phase 3 parcel and State Trust Land that I believe is the best possible riding experience for expert and strong intermediate level riders. Some of that route is going away as it is replaced by new trail construction nearby. Other parts of that route are on State Trust Land and will also go away as that parcel is sold and developed.

    I'm sure to enjoy the new trails as they are built, while I know I will miss some of the more challenging trails I currently enjoy that are going to get closed down or plowed up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    Yes it does. It goes all the way to "G", almost. The two trails do not connect directly. When you are riding west of Hawknest to the end of the trail, there is now a new trail right in front of you that is like a continuation of Hawknest, but it starts climbing for about a quarter mile to a junction. If you turn left, you can ride a half mile to meet up with Cone Mountain. If you turn right, you will see a "Y" in about 75 feet. If you take the left there, you are now on the beginning of "B" trail.

    When "B" goes under the power line, after about a mile, it could be confusing which way to go since there are multiple trails braided in several directions. Just stay on course, going straight ahead and you will still be in "B".

    I ride several other trails not part of the current Brown's Ranch official trail system that I prefer to "B", but it is a great design and has some technical challenges. I led a group of about 35 riders last Saturday on a route I created after two years of exploring old legacy trails on the Phase 3 parcel and State Trust Land that I believe is the best possible riding experience for expert and strong intermediate level riders. Some of that route is going away as it is replaced by new trail construction nearby. Other parts of that route are on State Trust Land and will also go away as that parcel is sold and developed.

    I'm sure to enjoy the new trails as they are built, while I know I will miss some of the more challenging trails I currently enjoy that are going to get closed down or plowed up.
    That area that is flagged off under the powerlines from where B hits the powerline all the way down to D is going to be amazing. I have ridden up the powerline corridor in that area maybe 3-4x in 14 years and I never knew that area existed.

    Maybe it is because of the thermo-nuclear bomb they used to remove all the brush, but there is just boulders upon boulders out there. Truly amazing terrain and will hopefully lead to some great epic trails as long as they don't just mail it in.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncbuster View Post
    On the plus side other than el diablo you can leave your helmet in your vehicle...
    I kinda agree with you, but I know of some folks that have taken nasty front tire wash outs on that crushed granite over hard pack going too fast around corners... but I get it, there is hardly any tech...

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    True about the speed bump/corners. Happened to me last weekend except I almost ran into a large chainfruit cholla. I'm riding more XC these days anyway and there's plenty of tech in PMP which is close to me but seems like a lot more of the trails in PMP are even faster than BR. Dont get me wrong I do enjoy it though..
    Quote Originally Posted by RajunCajun44 View Post
    I kinda agree with you, but I know of some folks that have taken nasty front tire wash outs on that crushed granite over hard pack going too fast around corners... but I get it, there is hardly any tech...

  65. #65
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    Two of the new trails discussed above are on Trailforks labeled as Corridor B. I rode both y'day and they are nice additions to the system. This was a modified version of Boris' route since some of that has gone away in the last couple of weeks. We also added Axle Grease into the mix.

    Here's the route via Ride with GPS.

    and via Trailforks.

    We did a few short OnB's checking out some other trails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by schillingsworth View Post
    Two of the new trails discussed above are on Trailforks labeled as Corridor B. I rode both y'day and they are nice additions to the system. This was a modified version of Boris' route since some of that has gone away in the last couple of weeks. We also added Axle Grease into the mix.

    Here's the route via Ride with GPS.

    and via Trailforks.

    We did a few short OnB's checking out some other trails.
    John-

    I missed the Boris ride, but could you give some character to the sections from 1.7-3.2 miles on your ride and also the section S of Legend Trail at 11-16 miles? Are these slated for destruction?

    Sorry about the Achilles!

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    Like others, rode a big loop yesterday on west side of McDowell Sonoran Preserve North Area. Rode north on Corridor B trail, then West End to Stagecoach, back to West End, then Axle Grease to temp connector, then back to parking area. I suspect that Corridor B trail is destined to be one of the favorites in MSP. Really well done.

    Bob
    "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." - Neil Kendall

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    Rode axle grease today.. not mad at all about that

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrHog View Post
    John-

    I missed the Boris ride, but could you give some character to the sections from 1.7-3.2 miles on your ride and also the section S of Legend Trail at 11-16 miles? Are these slated for destruction?

    Sorry about the Achilles!
    1.7 - 3.2 is just an old P&D moto trail that rides really well. Slightly downhill in that direction. Miles 11-16 are the State Trust Land trails. As Boris noted, these more than likely will go away when the land is sold off & developed. I tend to agree with Boris here, these trails are so much fun. Dare I say 'old school'? Skinny singletrack. Most are easy to follow once on them, a few are more primitive but still easy to navigate. They flow really well and use the natural topography. Go explore. For the most part they are similar in layout to the Brown's system trails, i.e. grid-like in layout. Pretty tough to get lost over there. You'll either dump out onto Pima Rd, come to the homes at Legends or the Powerlines. Go ride the sh!t out of them.

    Thanks re: Achilles. I knew my 300 ride was over when I had to HAB up Hackamore y'day. Not much of a climb there...
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrHog View Post
    John-

    I missed the Boris ride, but could you give some character to the sections from 1.7-3.2 miles on your ride and also the section S of Legend Trail at 11-16 miles? Are these slated for destruction?

    Sorry about the Achilles!
    Dr. Hog,

    Let me expand on what John described and go into greater detail. After leaving Hackamore, at approx. 1.7 miles, the route winds it's way to "Detroit rock City" or Corridor "K". Along the way, we purposely take a turn that leads to some technical moves and steep drops and heavy camber on steep slopes. It's challenging and fun and barely over an intermediate skill level. But it will be gone soon because it is not the type of trail they want in Phase 3. That is probably because it rides great going southwest, but would require expert level skills or maybe HAB going the other way.

    From 3.8-4.5 miles, there is no clear indication if the trail will survive, yet it is extraordinary. It is a lot like the route I take going through State Trust Land. It is narrow single track with high-speed rollers that you can carry your speed through. I suppose that trail is what we call Quasar, because if you follow it northwest, it ties back into Hackamore at the very same junction we departed from Hackamore. About a half mile from the end, there is an old Quasar television set lying next to the trail.

    On John's Trailforks map at 5.5 miles, he meets up with the new Corridor "B" trail and makes an abrupt turn onto it and follows it to it's end, before turning north to join Axle Grease. Had John continued on my route, and I'm not sure you still can, he would have merged onto Axle Grease at mile 10.8. After that, he is back on my route as it feeds into the State Trust Land at mile 11.2.

    Originally, the route I rode did not enter State Land at that spot. Unfortunately, every place you can access onto or out of that State Land parcel has been closed off, with the exception of the new access trail from Legends that ties into Malpais Trail. PM me for additional information on access. The route on State Land is more fun than I experience on Brown's Ranch trails. It's because the trails are narrow and twisty and there are a lot of rollers that work like a roller coaster ride. You do an initial short climb and then blast downhill and hold your speed though sweeping turns in order to carry speed up a hill for the next roller. You cross dozens of other trails along the way, but the route is designed so that you don't make many turns. You just keep moving forward. Then you exit onto the road that enters Legends and quickly get onto the new access trail that leads to Malpais (mile 16.46). Mile 19.71 is the beginning of Corridor "B". At mile 21.13, you would continue straight to stay on Corridor "B", but my route heads back to the finish on Spaghetti Western Trail, which I think is the old Dara Sara Trail. This is a spectacular trail, that the builder has made a pass over and done a slight bit of grading. About halfway to where you merge back onto the trail you first rode out on (mile 22.24), going the opposite direction to get back to Hackamore, you can see flagging that seems to indicate they don't care for the degree of difficulty on Spaghetti Western, and have plans to reroute part of it.

    It's interesting when you get trail designers and builders and land managers together to share philosophies. Some can envision more challenging trails that appeal to riders with advanced skills. Others have never ridden a mountain bike. The woman I took out on the route 2 weeks ago, sincerely thought she was an intermediate rider and because she has attended Brown's Ranch trail planning meetings for several years, she felt comfortable lecturing me on what is a sustainable trail and a proper trail for mountain bikers. I got to the point, midway through the ride, where I had to stop and tell her she was wildly over-estimating her skill level. She has beginner skills and consequently walked her bike over a dozen different times. In addition, she has somewhere between 0-3 hours of actual trail construction experience. I guess I am somewhere over 5000 hours. And since we were riding on old Moto trails, I had to point out to her that they were close to 35 years old and have had no maintenance done to them, while at the same time they were being ridden hard by skilled motorcycle riders. Yet despite that, that have been "sustainable" for 35 years. So mountain bikers were facing a strong headwind from the very beginning at Brown's and should be thankful that they got the builder to improve trail designs for mountain bikers more and more as he saw the flaws in Phase 1. I think the final product will satisfy most riders, despite their skill level.

    Oh, in answer to your question about if or when the trails on State Trust Land will be destroyed. Yes, they will be mostly eliminated. There will be what looked like 3 green space corridors left undeveloped, but they might just be mostly sandy washes. The State Land Rep I spoke with on Friday said there is no actual auction date for the parcel. It could happen this year. So we might be able to ride those trails for another year or more. Sadly, I was told a nearby bike shop is leading E-Bike tours out on State Trust Land and because of them, there is the possibility that the City of Scottsdale, and State Land will step up enforcement to run them off, which might cause the rest of us to get caught up in their sweeps. So if you see a bunch of idiots on 14" wheeled E-Bikes, not wearing helmets, riding into or out of the State Land parcel, do your best to run them off.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    Dr. Hog,

    Let me expand on what John described and go into greater detail. After leaving Hackamore, at approx. 1.7 miles, the route winds it's way to "Detroit rock City" or Corridor "K". Along the way, we purposely take a turn that leads to some technical moves and steep drops and heavy camber on steep slopes. It's challenging and fun and barely over an intermediate skill level. But it will be gone soon because it is not the type of trail they want in Phase 3. That is probably because it rides great going southwest, but would require expert level skills or maybe HAB going the other way.

    From 3.8-4.5 miles, there is no clear indication if the trail will survive, yet it is extraordinary. It is a lot like the route I take going through State Trust Land. It is narrow single track with high-speed rollers that you can carry your speed through. I suppose that trail is what we call Quasar, because if you follow it northwest, it ties back into Hackamore at the very same junction we departed from Hackamore. About a half mile from the end, there is an old Quasar television set lying next to the trail.

    On John's Trailforks map at 5.5 miles, he meets up with the new Corridor "B" trail and makes an abrupt turn onto it and follows it to it's end, before turning north to join Axle Grease. Had John continued on my route, and I'm not sure you still can, he would have merged onto Axle Grease at mile 10.8. After that, he is back on my route as it feeds into the State Trust Land at mile 11.2.

    Originally, the route I rode did not enter State Land at that spot. Unfortunately, every place you can access onto or out of that State Land parcel has been closed off, with the exception of the new access trail from Legends that ties into Malpais Trail. PM me for additional information on access. The route on State Land is more fun than I experience on Brown's Ranch trails. It's because the trails are narrow and twisty and there are a lot of rollers that work like a roller coaster ride. You do an initial short climb and then blast downhill and hold your speed though sweeping turns in order to carry speed up a hill for the next roller. You cross dozens of other trails along the way, but the route is designed so that you don't make many turns. You just keep moving forward. Then you exit onto the road that enters Legends and quickly get onto the new access trail that leads to Malpais (mile 16.46). Mile 19.71 is the beginning of Corridor "B". At mile 21.13, you would continue straight to stay on Corridor "B", but my route heads back to the finish on Spaghetti Western Trail, which I think is the old Dara Sara Trail. This is a spectacular trail, that the builder has made a pass over and done a slight bit of grading. About halfway to where you merge back onto the trail you first rode out on (mile 22.24), going the opposite direction to get back to Hackamore, you can see flagging that seems to indicate they don't care for the degree of difficulty on Spaghetti Western, and have plans to reroute part of it.

    It's interesting when you get trail designers and builders and land managers together to share philosophies. Some can envision more challenging trails that appeal to riders with advanced skills. Others have never ridden a mountain bike. The woman I took out on the route 2 weeks ago, sincerely thought she was an intermediate rider and because she has attended Brown's Ranch trail planning meetings for several years, she felt comfortable lecturing me on what is a sustainable trail and a proper trail for mountain bikers. I got to the point, midway through the ride, where I had to stop and tell her she was wildly over-estimating her skill level. She has beginner skills and consequently walked her bike over a dozen different times. In addition, she has somewhere between 0-3 hours of actual trail construction experience. I guess I am somewhere over 5000 hours. And since we were riding on old Moto trails, I had to point out to her that they were close to 35 years old and have had no maintenance done to them, while at the same time they were being ridden hard by skilled motorcycle riders. Yet despite that, that have been "sustainable" for 35 years. So mountain bikers were facing a strong headwind from the very beginning at Brown's and should be thankful that they got the builder to improve trail designs for mountain bikers more and more as he saw the flaws in Phase 1. I think the final product will satisfy most riders, despite their skill level.

    Oh, in answer to your question about if or when the trails on State Trust Land will be destroyed. Yes, they will be mostly eliminated. There will be what looked like 3 green space corridors left undeveloped, but they might just be mostly sandy washes. The State Land Rep I spoke with on Friday said there is no actual auction date for the parcel. It could happen this year. So we might be able to ride those trails for another year or more. Sadly, I was told a nearby bike shop is leading E-Bike tours out on State Trust Land and because of them, there is the possibility that the City of Scottsdale, and State Land will step up enforcement to run them off, which might cause the rest of us to get caught up in their sweeps. So if you see a bunch of idiots on 14" wheeled E-Bikes, not wearing helmets, riding into or out of the State Land parcel, do your best to run them off.
    Thanks, Boris...I have been riding all over Brown's Ranch for years, but I tend to just ride stuff that is on Trailforks. I feel like I've been missing out! I'll do my next ride out of Legend Trail and scope out the endangered trails.

  72. #72
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    I found my map from 1995 with the moto trails. Rode Browns on Sat and had fun in a non-tech sort of way. Great place to go just pedal and zip through the desert checked out on auto-pilot. Can't say I miss the old whooped out moto trails that seemingly go nowhere. But yeah, it's all pretty tame. I'll have to check out the newish stuff next time. Thanks to those involved making the place what it is.

    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-browns_small.jpg

    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-browns_small2.jpg


    All hiker and equestrian encounters were pleasant but anywhere near the TH is busy for sure.

    A Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-granite-mtn.jpg
    Last edited by rockman; 04-02-2018 at 12:13 PM.

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    Good deal was on Dare a Sarah trail yesterday (I think) which has been worked on from the power line road north and south a little way. I rode south to check it out but thought it was going to head back to the P&D trailhead so I went back north. Its got some technical stuff even had to step out if my bike at one point climbing but the trail is in pretty good shape. I saw flagging a short distance from the power line so the part I'm referring to may be eliminated.
    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I found my map from 1995 with the moto trails. Rode Browns on Sat and had fun in a non-tech sort of way. Great place to go just pedal and zip through the desert checked out on auto-pilot. Can't say I miss the old whooped out moto trails that seemingly go nowhere. But yeah, it's all pretty tame. I'll have to check out the newish stuff next time. Thanks to those involved making the place what it is.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    All hiker and equestrian encounters were pleasant but anywhere near the TH is busy for sure.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    I suppose that trail is what we call Quasar, because if you follow it northwest, it ties back into Hackamore at the very same junction we departed from Hackamore. About a half mile from the end, there is an old Quasar television set lying next to the trail.
    For once I FINALLY I know what trail you’re talking about.




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    If you know you knowA Critique of the new trails at Brown's Ranch and Pima and Dynamite (and of myself)-screenshot_2018-04-04-18-52-29.jpg

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    Go for it bro... while youre at it carve some banks in those curves for us
    Quote Originally Posted by Comeatmebro View Post
    If you know you knowClick image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by broncbuster View Post
    Go for it bro... while youre at it carve some banks in those curves for us
    bronc, He's using a sock puppet account to brag about riding a motorcycle illegally on a web site viewed by people who manage the McDowell preserve. They told me they may increase enforcement to deal with the nitwits riding E Bikes on State Land, which will negatively affect those of us riding lawfully, with possible closures.

    Consider the fact you are encouraging this jerk to post here and cause the land managers to send Scottsdale Police out to do enforcement. The better option seems to be to ignore the idiot, even if think you comment was just a joke. Let this thread slip down the page and go away. He has poisoned this thread.

  78. #78
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    I have no agenda here and there is some on-going good info like the map Rockman posted so Im not wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.. I guess you could report him here if he's promoting something illegal...
    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Badenov View Post
    bronc, He's using a sock puppet account to brag about riding a motorcycle illegally on a web site viewed by people who manage the McDowell preserve. They told me they may increase enforcement to deal with the nitwits riding E Bikes on State Land, which will negatively affect those of us riding lawfully, with possible closures.

    Consider the fact you are encouraging this jerk to post here and cause the land managers to send Scottsdale Police out to do enforcement. The better option seems to be to ignore the idiot, even if think you comment was just a joke. Let this thread slip down the page and go away. He has poisoned this thread.

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