Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress

    The Little Elden realignment project in Flagstaff is coming along nicely. Some recent Trail Faerie build stoke.

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le_rock-wall.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le_pry-bar.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-wide-angle_1024.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-phase-3_04282019.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-oak-alley-crux.jpg

    Just in case anyone is wondering the reason the trail is being realigned.

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le_old-alignment.jpg

    FBO volunteer event this upcoming Saturday, May 11. We'll be hand finishing a machine built section. Come on out! https://flagstaffbiking.org/first-tr...rail-reroutes/
    Last edited by rockman; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:17 AM.

  2. #2
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    Why cant we have trails and walls?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by LargeMan View Post
    Why cant we have trails and walls?
    Yes rock walls. And trail. Can you dig?

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le_rock-wall2.jpg

    oh yeah, and rock slings.

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le_rock-sling.jpg

  4. #4
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    Here we go again... double standard

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    Needs a wall ride. One to segregate the A line from the B line.

  6. #6
    Ahhh the pain....
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    Nice...just rode that stuff last weekend and the new stuff was so fun. Matter of fact, one of the guys with us said he could ride that kind of stuff all day long...yeah, that good. Fun boulder moves, interesting, and still keeps you on your toes. Guessing that crappy fall line section between the cinders of sandy seep and the new stuff will get realigned...
    nice work gents....

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=Raybum;14078744]Nice...just rode that stuff last weekend and the new stuff was so fun. Matter of fact, one of the guys with us said he could ride that kind of stuff all day long...yeah, that good. Fun boulder moves, interesting, and still keeps you on your toes. Guessing that crappy fall line section between the cinders of sandy seep and the new stuff will get realigned...
    nice work gents....[/QUOTE

    Thanks for the nice review!

    Yes, that garbage section of fall line will be no more. It's awesome to hear that people are digging the new section of trail. I think you will be VERY stoked about the next section that will be open after this coming Saturday. Its going to be a bit faster than what we have open so far. Its been a ton of fun and a ton of work getting things to this point. We are excited to finish this project and move on, but man.... what a special little corner of the mountain that is.

  8. #8
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    Nice work!!!

    Why the hard hats?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillbo View Post
    Nice work!!!

    Why the hard hats?
    Propper PPE. Without hardhat, no trail work for FS. Looks so good, tried to get over there last weekend. No way thru closure, bummer... hopefully soon, promised to give RA a piggyback ride over to that side, he had to take a rain check.

  10. #10
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    Man, I need to get up there.

    About half of Little Elden is in the closure correct?

  11. #11
    Just another half mile...
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    Awesome job guys. Walls are my favorite part of trail building.

  12. #12
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    Nice work. Have done a little trail building down in Cave Creek I can just get a taste for how much work this is, but many hands do make it go faster. Thanks for your efforts and all those doing this work.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  13. #13
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    The USFS threw us a bone so we ran with it. A major goal is to show the hiking community that we're not just bikers building mtn biking trails. It's a multi-use project but getting past that mindset has been a challenge. The new trail utilizes the landscape in a much more interesting way and isn't actually that much longer. Heart trail will be built to a similar standard starting in the next couple of weeks.

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-final-reroute-map.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-heart-l-elden-layout_small.jpg

  14. #14
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    So Heart is the trail in red? Comparing what to it's current state on TF, that is a huge reroute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    So Heart is the trail in red? Comparing what to it's current state on TF, that is a huge reroute.
    Yes, the realignment increases the length from 2.3 miles to ~4 miles. The average grade is nearly 13% with some sections at 20%+. There 17 switchbacks as well. The new alignment has an average grade of 7% and rather than switchbacks will use climbing turns to climb (or descend) the slope. 1,500' of fun, swoopy trail that will also utilize natural features and whatever else we can incorporate while still keeping it multi-use. We're advocating for directional, purpose-built bike trails elsewhere but not here.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Yes, the realignment increases the length from 2.3 miles to ~4 miles. The average grade is nearly 13% with some sections at 20%+. There 17 switchbacks as well. The new alignment has an average grade of 7% and rather than switchbacks will use climbing turns to climb (or descend) the slope. 1,500' of fun, swoopy trail that will also utilize natural features and whatever else we can incorporate while still keeping it multi-use. We're advocating for directional, purpose-built bike trails elsewhere but not here.
    And Heart is scheduled to be done by Fall of this year?

    Proposed location for the directional bike trails is in the PR/Wasabi general area correct? That was part of the decision that supposed to be signed by November of this prior to shutdown happening?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    And Heart is scheduled to be done by Fall of this year?

    Proposed location for the directional bike trails is in the PR/Wasabi general area correct? That was part of the decision that supposed to be signed by November of this prior to shutdown happening?
    Yes and yes. Heart is going to be built by ACE and should be done this year. A fire closure could change that. As for directional trails we will be advocating for them in the new proposed action for the Mount Elden/Dry Lake Hills Recreation Planning Project (MEDL). https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/cocon...TELPRDB5439778
    Not sure about the time table anymore. It should have been done a decade ago.

    Also, trying to get Easter Island in Fort Valley adopted and lengthened as a directional bike trail through the Flagstaff Trails Initiative.

  18. #18
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    "Planners anticipate completing the entire process at the end of 2014"


  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    "Planners anticipate completing the entire process at the end of 2014"

    Unfortunately, the Flagstaff Watershed Protection Project snuffed the life out of MEDL Enviro groups will now try to do the same but Flag has come a long way in a decade. We're still well behind other mountain towns in terms of planning and implementation but the mtn bike community as well as other recreational users have a much more unified voice with the Flagstaff Trails Initiative. Not that trail planning should trump wildlife or other resource concerns but this project in it's entirety needs to (and will) happen. There is support at all levels of county and city gov't as well as the land manager.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Unfortunately, the Flagstaff Watershed Protection Project snuffed the life out of MEDL Enviro groups will now try to do the same but Flag has come a long way in a decade. We're still well behind other mountain towns in terms of planning and implementation but the mtn bike community as well as other recreational users have a much more unified voice with the Flagstaff Trails Initiative. Not that trail planning should trump wildlife or other resource concerns but this project in it's entirety needs to (and will) happen. There is support at all levels of county and city gov't as well as the land manager.
    Lots of places have both abundant wildlife and recreational trails that coexist just fine. Unfortunate that point even needs to be made.

    It sure will be nice to not have some good DH trails to ride and not worry about hikers.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    Lots of places have both abundant wildlife and recreational trails that coexist just fine. Unfortunate that point even needs to be made.

    It sure will be nice to not have some good DH trails to ride and not worry about hikers.
    Yes indeed. Although the hiking community feels the same about mountain bikes and also want their own trails. Equestrians actually like the motorized trails better because they can hear them coming. As for big game like Elk and deer habitat fragmentation is mostly caused by by roads and urban development but the enviros will argue against more trails anyway. It's that dang Endangered Species Act that has the most clout. The biologists are willing to compromise and will allow what they call "takes" on, for example, a Mexican spotted owl protected activity center, and allow a trail to pass through the area. And that's how Secret Trail as well as the AZT got built through one or more MSO PACs but after so many 'takes' they are less willing to budge on other areas. It will be interesting to see how this MEDL collaborative group plays out. The trails will most likely go right back in so might as well plan for them. The horse has left the barn on the idea that the area is a pristine Sky Island. IMO.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Yes indeed. Although the hiking community feels the same about mountain bikes and also want their own trails. Equestrians actually like the motorized trails better because they can hear them coming. As for big game like Elk and deer habitat fragmentation is mostly caused by by roads and urban development but the enviros will argue against more trails anyway. It's that dang Endangered Species Act that has the most clout. The biologists are willing to compromise and will allow what they call "takes" on, for example, a Mexican spotted owl protected activity center, and allow a trail to pass through the area. And that's how Secret Trail as well as the AZT got built through one or more MSO PACs but after so many 'takes' they are less willing to budge on other areas. It will be interesting to see how this MEDL collaborative group plays out. The trails will most likely go right back in so might as well plan for them. The horse has left the barn on the idea that the area is a pristine Sky Island. IMO.
    I don't think hikers and MTBers will ever coexist nicely if we are forced to share the same trails in area like Mt. Elden. Maybe if they put a 10 mph speed limit on the trails. LOL I haven't come across too many horses riding my bike on multi use trails but I have dealt with them quite a bit riding dirt bikes. It always amazes me how many of them will take a horse that is afraid of vehicles into a place that they know is a popular OHV area and then expect everyone to bend over backwards accommodating them.

    So, you are saying the biologists are willing to allow a trail to go through a certain habitat in exchange for getting an activity center out of it? Doesn't that prove that the trail going through the area doesn't have much of an impact?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    So, you are saying the biologists are willing to allow a trail to go through a certain habitat in exchange for getting an activity center out of it? Doesn't that prove that the trail going through the area doesn't have much of an impact?
    No, not exactly. The PACs already exist and are part of the MSO Recovery Plan implemented in 1995. Critical habitat boundaries (ie., PACs) were established in 2004 as part of the plan. https://www.fs.usda.gov/treesearch/pubs/45043

    The impact of trails on owls is complicated. MSO's like mixed conifer forest and steep slopes for nesting and foraging. So do advanced mountain bikers. There are studies that have shown that "some bird species have decreased nest survival, increased predation, or lower nest density in areas fragmented by trails". https://www.jstor.org/stable/2641318...o_tab_contents

    On the other hand, other studies have shown that "most birds and mammals will react more strongly (i.e., flee) to off-trail recreationists than to on-trail users". https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...3.2010.00270.x
    Interestingly, one finding found bird watchers to be the greatest disturbance. Motorcycles and mtn bikers quickly passing by is apparently less of a disturbance. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...181?via%3Dihub

    However, most studies show some form of negative impact on wildlife from all user groups. Nobody is immune, not even hikers. The endangered species act will always have the upper hand in trail planning. Thus, the need for NEPA on public lands. It's a PIA but I think most of use would agree it's a good thing, no?
    Last edited by rockman; 2 Weeks Ago at 06:41 PM.

  24. #24
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    Thanks for linking these articles...but they all have a paywall so all I can see is the Abstract.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    However, most studies show some form of negative impact on wildlife from all user groups. Nobody is immune, not even hikers.
    Can't disagree with that...

    -db-

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbflg View Post
    Thanks for linking these articles...but they all have a paywall so all I can see is the Abstract.

    Can't disagree with that...

    -db-
    Sorry DB, I have access at work but yeah $40 is a lot to cough up for a download. You can at least access the first page and abstract? I got carried away there but trying to bone up on trails and wildlife before the MEDL meetings get going. I'm surprised there is as much peer-reviewed research as there is.

    USFS got the mini-dozer out today in prep for next Saturday's volunteer event. Before May is over we'll be 2/3's done with a lot of difficult work remaining.

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-phase-2_swaeco1_small.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-phase-2_swaeco2_small.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-phase-2_swaeco3_small.jpg

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    thanks Raybum! More to come.

    This vid is of what's done so far. The camera angle gets better at 00:45, my gorilla descending stance apparently doesn't work well with the chest mount.


  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    No, not exactly. The PACs already exist and are part of the MSO Recovery Plan implemented in 1995. Critical habitat boundaries (ie., PACs) were established in 2004 as part of the plan. https://www.fs.usda.gov/treesearch/pubs/45043

    The impact of trails on owls is complicated. MSO's like mixed conifer forest and steep slopes for nesting and foraging. So do advanced mountain bikers. There are studies that have shown that "some bird species have decreased nest survival, increased predation, or lower nest density in areas fragmented by trails". https://www.jstor.org/stable/2641318...o_tab_contents

    On the other hand, other studies have shown that "most birds and mammals will react more strongly (i.e., flee) to off-trail recreationists than to on-trail users". https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...3.2010.00270.x
    Interestingly, one finding found bird watchers to be the greatest disturbance. Motorcycles and mtn bikers quickly passing by is apparently less of a disturbance. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...181?via%3Dihub

    However, most studies show some form of negative impact on wildlife from all user groups. Nobody is immune, not even hikers. The endangered species act will always have the upper hand in trail planning. Thus, the need for NEPA on public lands. It's a PIA but I think most of use would agree it's a good thing, no?
    Thanks for the explanation.

    I would agree that protecting an endangered specie is absolutely a good thing as long as some common sense is used. Seems like it based on a lot of speculation though seeing as there may or may not be any Mexican Spotted Owls on the area per FS link.

    "An owl site is an area with a high probability of being used by a single or a pair of adult or subadult owls for nesting, roosting, or foraging."

    Doesn't seem like a sufficient reason to not allow trails in an area IMO. How big is the protected area exactly?

    Are the links you posted to the research just studies you found on your own or have the MSO biologists cited them? A Brown Headed Cow Bird and a Northern Cardinal certainly aren't Owls.

  28. #28
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    The maps for nesting centers and protected habitat are hard to get one's hands on but have a look at p. 299 in the FWPP EIS. https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/ww...T3_2285870.pdf

    Recent monitoring efforts can be found here: http://flagstaffwatershedprotection....ing_Report.pdf

    Wasabi, Prom Night, and Can-I are smack in the middle of MSO PACs. It's hard to argue for common sense because of that and easier to reach compromise on building a trail elsewhere to meet the demand. The PA had a new PR and Wasabi-type trail in the drainage south of Wasabi where there are no owls. I'd also argue for getting Ginger back in the equation. However, there is the perception that mtn bikers are trying to turn the place into a biking Disneyland.

    We don't have any trump cards to play except Flagstaff is growing and Maricopa is the fastest growing county in the US for the 3rd year in a row. We need to be planning for the recreational pressure in what essentially is Flagstaff's backyard. At the same time the enviros are pushing for resource protection. Common sense as you say is a gray area.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Wasabi, Prom Night, and Can-I are smack in the middle of MSO PACs. It's hard to argue for common sense because of that and easier to reach compromise on building a trail elsewhere to meet the demand. The PA had a new PR and Wasabi-type trail in the drainage south of Wasabi where there are no owls. I'd also argue for getting Ginger back in the equation. However, there is the perception that mtn bikers are trying to turn the place into a biking Disneyland.
    Well, I guess there is some truth to the Disneyland thing..... The potential is certainly there.

  30. #30
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    Hand finish today on yesterday's machine build. Lots of this planned for Saturday's trail day.

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-phase-2_swaeco_hand-finish.jpg

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    Trail Porn pics today courtesy of raisingarizona.

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-goalposts_.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le_hail.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le_gum-drops.jpg

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Trail Porn pics today courtesy of raisingarizona.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    As predicted last fall, this will be a favorite location for photos. Nice, RA!

    -db-

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbflg View Post
    As predicted last fall, this will be a favorite location for photos. Nice, RA!

    -db-
    Thanks man! We need a pic like that with a rider coming around that bend in the trail.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Trail Porn pics today courtesy of raisingarizona.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Awesome! I guess I have to start riding in Flag!


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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by waltaz View Post
    Awesome! I guess I have to start riding in Flag!


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    Sounds like a movie called "Leaving Las Sendas"...




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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    Sounds like a movie called "Leaving Las Sendas"...



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    Thanks to the Arizona Trail Association Gear Girls our ranks were nearly doubled and we had 30 out yesterday. Good start to the season.

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le_51119_1.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le_51119_3.jpg

    Before
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    After
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    Before
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  38. #38
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    Wow! Thanks for all the hard work! Canít wait to ride. Heart trail plan sounds awesome! We need more routes that are gradual grades to the top of Elden.

    It would be great if there was an option to climb to the top near, but not on Mt. Elden Lookout road. Sucking car dust on the road is never fun.

    People are talking about downhill only trails, but what about uphill (and hiker) only trails? I rode one in park city and it was nice to have, long sustained climb.

    Where is the best place to donate $ to support trail work on mount Elden. Already a member of FBO. Ideally it would be used for trail work/ advocacy in the dry lakes/ Mt. Elden area and recognized as coming from the MTB community. But If something specific like that does not exist I could donate more to FBO or general trail funds.

    Rockman- thanks again for the advocacy, trail work and keeping the larger community informed itís greatly appreciated by those of us who do not have the time.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bones2 View Post
    Wow! Thanks for all the hard work! Canít wait to ride. Heart trail plan sounds awesome! We need more routes that are gradual grades to the top of Elden.

    It would be great if there was an option to climb to the top near, but not on Mt. Elden Lookout road. Sucking car dust on the road is never fun.

    People are talking about downhill only trails, but what about uphill (and hiker) only trails? I rode one in park city and it was nice to have, long sustained climb.

    Where is the best place to donate $ to support trail work on mount Elden. Already a member of FBO. Ideally it would be used for trail work/ advocacy in the dry lakes/ Mt. Elden area and recognized as coming from the MTB community. But If something specific like that does not exist I could donate more to FBO or general trail funds.

    Rockman- thanks again for the advocacy, trail work and keeping the larger community informed itís greatly appreciated by those of us who do not have the time.
    Hey thanks for the support!

    The plan in the Proposed Action for MEDL was to reroute U. Oldham into a bi-directional shared use trail at a 5 to 7% grade which would make for a sweet climbing trail. Same thing for Lower Brookbank to get up to Dry Lakes. https://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=38239

    The FBO comment and request to add some additional social trails into the Final Decision can be found here: https://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-conte...entsPA_FBO.pdf

    It's now 5 years later and now that FWPP is in full implementation, MEDL is back on the table. If you want to help our advocacy efforts you can donate to the trail fund. We're also $8k short on the money to hire ACE to build Heart Trail this summer. We use the general fund from fund raisers and membership to fund/support volunteer events and the trail fund also goes directly to hiring ACE or buying tools and such. Otherwise, it's all volunteer-driven.
    https://flagstaffbiking.org/sponsors...nstruction-2/?

    On a side note, anybody and everybody that uses trails and finds damage from thinning/logging should send an email or directly call and ask to speak to the District Ranger. There is no plan or funding in place for remediation of damaged trails except through volunteer efforts so the more complaints heard maybe the message will get through. https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/cocon...forest/offices

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Hey thanks for the support!


    On a side note, anybody and everybody that uses trails and finds damage from thinning/logging should send an email or directly call and ask to speak to the District Ranger. There is no plan or funding in place for remediation of damaged trails except through volunteer efforts so the more complaints heard maybe the message will get through. https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/cocon...forest/offices
    So the FS isn't requiring the logging company to return the trails to their original state like we originally thought?

    On a more positive note, per raisingarizona's recommendation, I rode out to Rogers Lake from the bike park on Saturday and despite getting soaked, it is a really fun trail. A lot more fun than I was anticipating.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    So the FS isn't requiring the logging company to return the trails to their original state like we originally thought?

    On a more positive note, per raisingarizona's recommendation, I rode out to Rogers Lake from the bike park on Saturday and despite getting soaked, it is a really fun trail. A lot more fun than I was anticipating.
    Sounds like a good recipe for Trail Anarchy to return...
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    So the FS isn't requiring the logging company to return the trails to their original state like we originally thought?
    Only system trails. Language to that effect was included in the EIS and the Record of Decision for FWPP. Apparently, in the rush to get the contracts in place they neglected to pin this little detail down. They are supposed to repair damage to the forest from "skid trails". Apparently they are not doing as much cable logging if at all but where they did mechanized felling on L. Oldham and Rocky Ridge the damage is significant. Hopefully, at the higher elevations and on steeper slopes the damage will be minimal. Some trails like Sunset and L. Bear probably won't be affected at all.

    Either way, it's going to look quite a bit different. For those that wish to tune up social trails they will need night vision goggles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Sounds like a good recipe for Trail Anarchy to return...
    Exactly! Especially, if they aren't even going to fix the legit trails.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Only system trails. Language to that effect was included in the EIS and the Record of Decision for FWPP. Apparently, in the rush to get the contracts in place they neglected to pin this little detail down. They are supposed to repair damage to the forest from "skid trails". Apparently they are not doing as much cable logging if at all but where they did mechanized felling on L. Oldham and Rocky Ridge the damage is significant. Hopefully, at the higher elevations and on steeper slopes the damage will be minimal. Some trails like Sunset and L. Bear probably won't be affected at all.

    Either way, it's going to look quite a bit different. For those that wish to tune up social trails they will need night vision goggles.
    Hmmm Seems strange they could forget something like that. #MTBBLACKOPS

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    Exactly! Especially, if they aren't even going to fix the legit trails.

    Hmmm Seems strange they could forget something like that. #MTBBLACKOPS
    Well it's all a bit weird and cross-jurisdictional with the city of Flagstaff paying for the work and the project being administered by the FS. And of course, it's over-budget and I think it was frankly a case of let's get this done and instead of bring the trails up to a standard as part of the fuels/timber work the District Ranger indicated to us that it would be FS employees, youth crews, and volunteers. To that effect we have two volunteer events planned for Rocky Ridge this fall.

    That really begs the question of whether we want logging contractors doing trail work anyway? It would be better to have the money and pay a professional trail crew.
    Last edited by rockman; 1 Week Ago at 09:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    That really begs the question of whether we want logging contractors doing trail work anyway? It would be better to have the money and pay a professional trail crew.
    An extremely good point.

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    I can't wait to polish some turds on those RR days....

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I can't wait to polish some turds on those RR days....
    So, RR isn't worth working on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    So, RR isn't worth working on?
    I still like it, but I'm old skool. No berms, hav2 work for flo

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    I still like it, but I'm old skool. No berms, hav2 work for flo

    I'm old school too but wow, what piece of shit bird trail that is. Like 99% of flagstaff trails, without a significant reroute I have no motivation in doing maintenance on them. The majority trails here are the kind that leave me confused on why I ever was into this sport. It's more of an exercise than something I find fun and exciting. I go for a ride here and I feel like I'm trapped in 1994.

    This perception that my wanting of better trails equates to building berms has me confused. I simply desire good trails and holding onto the crap trails we have here bewilders me. We are currently working on 7 or 8 miles of new trail and there isn't a single berm that's being constructed. A small inslope? Sure, why the F not? And even that has maybe been done on like 15 feet of tread so far. I like fun stuff I guess.

    At least the skiing was good this season.

    Seriously, this is why I got so into building. Riding here is boring af. I generally prefer walking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    So, RR isn't worth working on?
    Not really. The east end is fun and has a decent alignment from a sustainability perspective but the west end is up and down fall line eroded chunk. Awkward, slow, and technical. It's a local's favorite because for many it's where they first learned to ride technical terrain and have continually tested their skills over the years as a short after work type ride, etc.

    It was also previously existing trail incorporated into the Arizona National Scenic trail and doesn't really fit into the design specification either. Until the thinning, however, the FS didn't have any plans for realignment. Now it will have some sections for sure that will change because you can't find the trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I'm old school too but wow, what piece of shit bird trail that is. Like 99% of flagstaff trails, without a significant reroute I have no motivation in doing maintenance on them. The majority trails here are the kind that leave me confused on why I ever was into this sport. It's more of an exercise than something I find fun and exciting. I go for a ride here and I feel like I'm trapped in 1994.

    This perception that my wanting of better trails equates to building berms has me confused. I simply desire good trails and holding onto the crap trails we have here bewilders me. We are currently working on 7 or 8 miles of new trail and there isn't a single berm that's being constructed. A small inslope? Sure, why the F not? And even that has maybe been done on like 15 feet of tread so far. I like fun stuff I guess.

    At least the skiing was good this season.

    Seriously, this is why I got so into building. Riding here is boring af. I generally prefer walking.
    LOL Tell us how you really feel.

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    So, who's call was it for the trail days to be held on RR? Sounds like doing the work elsewhere would be more productive? Or maybe effective is a better word. I need to make it up for a trail day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    LOL Tell us how you really feel.
    That's as real as it gets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Not really. The east end is fun and has a decent alignment from a sustainability perspective but the west end is up and down fall line eroded chunk. Awkward, slow, and technical. It's a local's favorite because for many it's where they first learned to ride technical terrain and have continually tested their skills over the years as a short after work type ride, etc.

    It was also previously existing trail incorporated into the Arizona National Scenic trail and doesn't really fit into the design specification either. Until the thinning, however, the FS didn't have any plans for realignment. Now it will have some sections for sure that will change because you can't find the trail.
    awkward? yeah, but technical? Meh, not really. It's more like just strange. None of it's terribly challenging any longer, it just feels like....why? Am I enjoying this? Not exactly but I'm outside and getting some exercise I guess. It's sort of like this whole uphill ski shit. Who actually gets into skiing to go uphill? WTF is going on round here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    That's as real as it gets.
    I believe you. lol

    Curious to hear your thoughts on where you would like to focus the effort on? Obviously it is new trails and I am interested to hear your thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    So, who's call was it for the trail days to be held on RR? Sounds like doing the work elsewhere would be more productive? Or maybe effective is a better word. I need to make it up for a trail day.
    Mine after consultation with USFS Rec staff when setting up the volunteer event calendar. The USFS has 30+ volunteer trail events this summer so we meet and figure out which dates work best and trails we think need the most work. It also came at the recommendation of one of the bike shops. I try to get their input as well as all event sponsors on which trails to work on each season as well. But honestly, with so many unknowns due to the closure it was just a place holder and we can move the event to anywhere we choose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    So, who's call was it for the trail days to be held on RR? Sounds like doing the work elsewhere would be more productive? Or maybe effective is a better word. I need to make it up for a trail day.
    With the thinning it was expressed by the community that some rehab work was going to be needed. Now it sounds like that the FS is going in to get it reopened. I think it's cool that the FS is making an effort to get trails opened up but without a re-alignment I'm not interested in busting my back for it. I haven't ridden that trail in years. It's an ok walk.

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    RR not the best trail by a long shot, however it will always have a place in my life. 1st trail I rode after getting out of a moving truck and it was way better than where I came from. Still like it, it's not easy, call it exercise. Good for the soul.
    #flagstaffjank

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    RR not the best trail by a long shot, however it will always have a place in my life. 1st trail I rode after getting out of a moving truck and it was way better than where I came from. Still like it, it's not easy, call it exercise. Good for the soul.
    #flagstaffjank
    It's still pretty dam hard to clean in the uphill direction (west to east).

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    I believe you. lol

    Curious to hear your thoughts on where you would like to focus the effort on? Obviously it is new trails and I am interested to hear your thoughts.

    Everything......

    For now we are on LE and Heart. It wouldn't have been on the top of my list but it's a start and to be honest it's gonna be freaking sick. It's unlike anything that you find in flagstaff. The views and terrain are both pretty insane. there's around 800 vertical feet of descent in Sedona-esque red rock dirt and from the top there will be an almost continuous 2k vert descent overall. Honestly, I need to keep the focus and stoke in the fact that we are doing something. I'm thankful that we have this project for now. If I look at the rest of what we got though, well I don't want to I guess. The mountain biking here is depressing, or it is at least if you travel and experience places with legit systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Mine after consultation with USFS Rec staff when setting up the volunteer event calendar. The USFS has 30+ volunteer trail events this summer so we meet and figure out which dates work best and trails we think need the most work. It also came at the recommendation of one of the bike shops. I try to get their input as well as all event sponsors on which trails to work on each season as well. But honestly, with so many unknowns due to the closure it was just a place holder and we can move the event to anywhere we choose.
    Gotcha. Wasn't trying to sound judgmental regarding that decision just trying to get a feel for the Flag MTB landscape. After looking at it on the map, I can see why some may want it fixed up seeing as it ties into town essentially. I tend to get a little hung up on the stuff coming off the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    With the thinning it was expressed by the community that some rehab work was going to be needed. Now it sounds like that the FS is going in to get it reopened. I think it's cool that the FS is making an effort to get trails opened up but without a re-alignment I'm not interested in busting my back for it. I haven't ridden that trail in years. It's an ok walk.
    If the current alignment is that poor, I can definitely see not wanting to do the work. How hard would it be to get the FS on board with a reroute? Should that be part of the MEDL proprosal?

    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    RR not the best trail by a long shot, however it will always have a place in my life. 1st trail I rode after getting out of a moving truck and it was way better than where I came from. Still like it, it's not easy, call it exercise. Good for the soul.
    #flagstaffjank
    You guys would laugh at the "trails" I have to ride. LOL Old horse trails that are lose, washed out, and overgrown. I come off of them bleeding every time without even crashing. Still better than riding two track but it makes Flagstaff pretty awesome in my eyes!

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    Do we want jank or would we rather have the kinds of trails that leave shit eating grins from ear to ear after you ride em? We don't really have those any more.

    I'm tired of this Flagstaff complacent attitude that we don't need better. It's like there's this weird thing that we should be happy with mediocrity. I can't be that person. I like to dream and think big. I'm not about to apologize to anyone for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Everything......

    For now we are on LE and Heart. It wouldn't have been on the top of my list but it's a start and to be honest it's gonna be freaking sick. It's unlike anything that you find in flagstaff. The views and terrain are both pretty insane. there's around 800 vertical feet of descent in Sedona-esque red rock dirt and from the top there will be an almost continuous 2k vert descent overall. Honestly, I need to keep the focus and stoke in the fact that we are doing something. I'm thankful that we have this project for now. If I look at the rest of what we got though, well I don't want to I guess. The mountain biking here is depressing, or it is at least if you travel and experience places with legit systems.
    What would have been on the top of your list?

    The 800 and 2k worth of descending are both referencing Heart or is the L. Elden 800?

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    Everything is on the table for MEDL. What is going to come of it all is still unknown.

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    I didn't realize that L. Elden had as much elevation change as it does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Everything is on the table for MEDL. What is going to come of it all is still unknown.
    The collaborative group that was supposed to start meeting with the USFS to help guide a new Proposed Action on MEDL has been canceled twice. It's getting stalled by a subset of the community that oppose all trail development and the presence of mountain bikes on public land.

    I'm with RA on the overall condition of the trail network. I've ridden all over the west, including Alberta and BC. We're not just one decade behind but two. Besides trail quality we really lack in trail diversity. Trails for all user types including the enduro-bros who think Wasabi is the cat's meow when really it's just the tip of the iceberg on what could really be done with that terrain if we could build legally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    The collaborative group that was supposed to start meeting with the USFS to help guide a new Proposed Action on MEDL has been canceled twice. It's getting stalled by a subset of the community that oppose all trail development and the presence of mountain bikes on public land.

    I'm with RA on the overall condition of the trail network. I've ridden all over the west, including Alberta and BC. We're not just one decade behind but two. Besides trail quality we really lack in trail diversity. Trails for all user types including the enduro-bros who think Wasabi is the cat's meow when really it's just the tip of the iceberg on what could really be done with that terrain if we could build legally.
    Well, I sure hope the MEDL proposal opens some doors to get us headed on the right direction.

    That "subset" is the Sierra Club I am assuming? How does this subset have the power to get meetings cancelled? How do they even have a leg to stand on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    Well, I sure hope the MEDL proposal opens some doors to get us headed on the right direction.

    That "subset" is the Sierra Club I am assuming? How does this subset have the power to get meetings cancelled? How do they even have a leg to stand on?
    Good question. The first meeting was cancelled because they undermined the meeting invite list. Not sure about the one that was supposed to happen this week but I presume more complaints about representation and that the focus of the planning team was sided more toward recreation and trails than conservation issues like unauthorized trails and wildlife impacts. We need more reasonable people around here to sit at the table. There's one dude in particular that borders on the Mike V-type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    What would have been on the top of your list?

    The 800 and 2k worth of descending are both referencing Heart or is the L. Elden 800?
    Sort of both. Upper Sunset to Heart to LE riding in the counter clockwise direction back toward Shultz Pass has a total of around 2k of descent. The Heart was basically off our radar. When Brian proposed the idea I took a look and was blown away by the possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Good question. The first meeting was cancelled because they undermined the meeting invite list. Not sure about the one that was supposed to happen this week but I presume more complaints about representation and that the focus of the planning team was sided more toward recreation and trails than conservation issues like unauthorized trails and wildlife impacts. We need more reasonable people around here to sit at the table. There's one dude in particular that borders on the Mike V-type.
    Sounds like more reasonable people at the table will just make the Sierra Club yahoos beat the misrepresentation drum harder. I am kind of surprised the Forest service is catering to their complaints enough to cancel a meeting. Not like the first meeting will set anything in stone. At the risk of asking a stupid question, who is Mike V?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    I didn't realize that L. Elden had as much elevation change as it does.
    From the new Heart trail alignment it only drops a small bit in the counter clockwise direction on the section that we are rerouting and it's extremely gradual overall but it is mostly descending. After the reroute it's a long climb back up to Shultz Pass. That's by design, our concept was sustainability of course as well as a long and continuous flowing alignment. A seamless stretch of decent mileage whether it's high speed descending or pedally xc. You know, like really groovy shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    From the new Heart trail alignment it only drops a small bit in the counter clockwise direction on the section that we are rerouting and it's extremely gradual overall but it is mostly descending. After the reroute it's a long climb back up to Shultz Pass. That's by design, our concept was sustainability of course as well as a long and continuous flowing alignment. A seamless stretch of decent mileage whether it's high speed descending or pedally xc. You know, like really groovy shit.
    Looks like about 10 miles from the top of Sunset, down Heart, and then L. Elden up to Shultz Pass? Definitely the potential for a good loop.

    So, the reroute on L. Elden you guys have been working on is between mile 1 and 2 starting on the S. East end?

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    Yeah, it's basically from the Christmaas Tree/ Sandy Seep intersection to just below the springs. The new Heart trail comes into it somewhere close to the middle of the realignment. It's probably close to three miles of new trail on the Little Elden section. I bet Heart is a bit over 4, maybe closer to 5. So 7 or 8 miles total of new tread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    Sounds like more reasonable people at the table will just make the Sierra Club yahoos beat the misrepresentation drum harder. I am kind of surprised the Forest service is catering to their complaints enough to cancel a meeting. Not like the first meeting will set anything in stone. At the risk of asking a stupid question, who is Mike V?
    Yeah I don't know. There were some letters that went to the regional forester and even further up the chain that launched an internal investigation. Good people got thrown under the bus. We know this because we have the redacted letters and emails obtained through FOIA. It's really quite ugly and quite amazing that the fabricated stories and allegations had that much traction. Anyhow, Mike V is not our friend and there are more just like him here in Flag. https://mjvande.info/
    https://www.outsideonline.com/180817...-mike-vandeman

    The bottom line is the USFS is playing this by the book and following a process. It's going to take a long time. Corners got cut in Sedona to make things happen. That's not going to happen here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Yeah I don't know. There were some letters that went to the regional forester and even further up the chain that launched an internal investigation. Good people got thrown under the bus. We know this because we have the redacted letters and emails obtained through FOIA. It's really quite ugly and quite amazing that the fabricated stories and allegations had that much traction. Anyhow, Mike V is not our friend and there are more just like him here in Flag. https://mjvande.info/
    https://www.outsideonline.com/180817...-mike-vandeman

    The bottom line is the USFS is playing this by the book and following a process. It's going to take a long time. Corners got cut in Sedona to make things happen. That's not going to happen here.
    Holy Crap! What is wrong with people? I don't think people like that will change the overall outcome but like you said, they can certainly slow it down which is really unfortunate. Sounds like Mike V. needs to be in the looney bin.

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    I am also not surprised that Mike V. is from CA. I can't help but wonder if you take away everyone that moved to Flag from CA over the last 20 years, how many of the problematic people would be left?

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    If I were to start on rebuilding the system and had the green light I think I'd start with creating fluid connectivity with mostly bidirectional green/blue stuff. That's the biggest problem imo with out system. It lacks that flow and loop-ability you get with properly planned trail systems. A new Dogfood and Upper Dogfoos that connects all of those upper moto loops would be at the top of the list. That would create lots of loop options in that area, especially when you include shultz and the AZT. that would include various connections and rerouting that stretch of the AZT that connects over to Shultz where Ken-I drops in.

    The other biggest improvement would be the whole Brookbank, Upper Oldham, Sunset and Upper and Lower Onion connections. this creates a whole upper mountain loop system and would get all of the riding traffic off the road. Upper Sunset is gonna stay as is I think, people like tthe Catwalk and Hobbits section, it's sort of our classic iconic trail. I'd fix up the ridgeline stuff and the crappy fall line bits, giving it more flowing connectivity and a better descending feel but keep it;'s overall character. The Onions could be a mid loop connection from Upper Oldham, I've gps'd a proposed trail that cuts over from where the middle of Lower Wasabi currently is, it's a switchbacking point for a very low graded Upper Oldham. Right in that bermy section of Wasabi is a great place for that trail junction. theres a killer rock outcropping with a view that would make for a sweet spot to wrap Lower Onion around that ridge and connect it to Uppers. This whole concept gets everyone off the road unless that's where they want to be. Basically sweet climbing trails, well built bench cuts that would be really fun in either direction. The FS plan was to take L. Brookbank and bring it up to Upper Old Ham on the other side of the road from the currrent Middle Old Ham. That's in a wash and is seriously unsustainable. The FS really wants move that connection. The current Middle Old Ham isn't really very good in either direction. I'd like to see all Of Brookbank rerouted so it creates a more fluid connection from the Elden side to the DLH side and then back down to Lookout road and the Lower Old ham system as well as Rocky Ridge. This loop system creates that loop-able concept. That climb on Sunset? Oh yeah. Wrap that baby around the back above Little Bear, theres killer views and it would add a bunch of length as well as a more fun alignment. Getting a realignmnet on the far end of RR would help with connectivity overall, sure it's a nice quick, go-to option for people that live over there but it's a main arterial trail that should be purposed to get average riders up and out of the main trail head area. That would get a lot of biking traffic off the paved road and lower Lookout Road. I know that most people skip RR when they are going on longer rides. I see that as a system design flaw.

    One other concept that I really like for fluid connectivity is a single track trail connecting the very bottom of Sunset or Shultz Pass over to the Dry Lakes tank. That would create a more attractive option than going up Little Gnarly, a Forest Road. That with Upper Brookbank would tie the whole room together and replace Climb 3 and Weenies walk, more FS roads that have sort of been turned into trails now turned back to roads. We can do better imo.

    Those are the first things I see as priority and the biggest improvements that the majority would immediately appreciate, even if they don't realize it now.

    After that you could probably start getting into the Lower Old Ham system, the front side of the mountain, Forces Of Nature, X-Mas Tree etc. Really create a killer loop around all of Elden and really nail the whole stacked loop system concept, as well as a stacked loop right out of the Y.

    Then of course there's the more mt bike specific stuff, the really fun things to build imo and what got me involved in the first place but I need to get out side so I'll stop here for now.

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    uhhh, fu*k yeah!

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    If I were to start on rebuilding the system and had the green light I think I'd start with creating fluid connectivity with mostly bidirectional green/blue stuff. That's the biggest problem imo with out system. It lacks that flow and loop-ability you get with properly planned trail systems. A new Dogfood and Upper Dogfoos that connects all of those upper moto loops would be at the top of the list. That would create lots of loop options in that area, especially when you include shultz and the AZT. that would include various connections and rerouting that stretch of the AZT that connects over to Shultz where Ken-I drops in.

    The other biggest improvement would be the whole Brookbank, Upper Oldham, Sunset and Upper and Lower Onion connections. this creates a whole upper mountain loop system and would get all of the riding traffic off the road. Upper Sunset is gonna stay as is I think, people like tthe Catwalk and Hobbits section, it's sort of our classic iconic trail. I'd fix up the ridgeline stuff and the crappy fall line bits, giving it more flowing connectivity and a better descending feel but keep it;'s overall character. The Onions could be a mid loop connection from Upper Oldham, I've gps'd a proposed trail that cuts over from where the middle of Lower Wasabi currently is, it's a switchbacking point for a very low graded Upper Oldham. Right in that bermy section of Wasabi is a great place for that trail junction. theres a killer rock outcropping with a view that would make for a sweet spot to wrap Lower Onion around that ridge and connect it to Uppers. This whole concept gets everyone off the road unless that's where they want to be. Basically sweet climbing trails, well built bench cuts that would be really fun in either direction. The FS plan was to take L. Brookbank and bring it up to Upper Old Ham on the other side of the road from the currrent Middle Old Ham. That's in a wash and is seriously unsustainable. The FS really wants move that connection. The current Middle Old Ham isn't really very good in either direction. I'd like to see all Of Brookbank rerouted so it creates a more fluid connection from the Elden side to the DLH side and then back down to Lookout road and the Lower Old ham system as well as Rocky Ridge. This loop system creates that loop-able concept. That climb on Sunset? Oh yeah. Wrap that baby around the back above Little Bear, theres killer views and it would add a bunch of length as well as a more fun alignment. Getting a realignmnet on the far end of RR would help with connectivity overall, sure it's a nice quick, go-to option for people that live over there but it's a main arterial trail that should be purposed to get average riders up and out of the main trail head area. That would get a lot of biking traffic off the paved road and lower Lookout Road. I know that most people skip RR when they are going on longer rides. I see that as a system design flaw.

    One other concept that I really like for fluid connectivity is a single track trail connecting the very bottom of Sunset or Shultz Pass over to the Dry Lakes tank. That would create a more attractive option than going up Little Gnarly, a Forest Road. That with Upper Brookbank would tie the whole room together and replace Climb 3 and Weenies walk, more FS roads that have sort of been turned into trails now turned back to roads. We can do better imo.

    Those are the first things I see as priority and the biggest improvements that the majority would immediately appreciate, even if they don't realize it now.

    After that you could probably start getting into the Lower Old Ham system, the front side of the mountain, Forces Of Nature, X-Mas Tree etc. Really create a killer loop around all of Elden and really nail the whole stacked loop system concept, as well as a stacked loop right out of the Y.

    Then of course there's the more mt bike specific stuff, the really fun things to build imo and what got me involved in the first place but I need to get out side so I'll stop here for now.
    Well thought out and logical.
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    If I were to start on rebuilding the system and had the green light I think I'd start with creating fluid connectivity with mostly bidirectional green/blue stuff. That's the biggest problem imo with out system. It lacks that flow and loop-ability you get with properly planned trail systems. A new Dogfood and Upper Dogfoos that connects all of those upper moto loops would be at the top of the list. That would create lots of loop options in that area, especially when you include shultz and the AZT. that would include various connections and rerouting that stretch of the AZT that connects over to Shultz where Ken-I drops in.

    The other biggest improvement would be the whole Brookbank, Upper Oldham, Sunset and Upper and Lower Onion connections. this creates a whole upper mountain loop system and would get all of the riding traffic off the road. Upper Sunset is gonna stay as is I think, people like tthe Catwalk and Hobbits section, it's sort of our classic iconic trail. I'd fix up the ridgeline stuff and the crappy fall line bits, giving it more flowing connectivity and a better descending feel but keep it;'s overall character. The Onions could be a mid loop connection from Upper Oldham, I've gps'd a proposed trail that cuts over from where the middle of Lower Wasabi currently is, it's a switchbacking point for a very low graded Upper Oldham. Right in that bermy section of Wasabi is a great place for that trail junction. theres a killer rock outcropping with a view that would make for a sweet spot to wrap Lower Onion around that ridge and connect it to Uppers. This whole concept gets everyone off the road unless that's where they want to be. Basically sweet climbing trails, well built bench cuts that would be really fun in either direction. The FS plan was to take L. Brookbank and bring it up to Upper Old Ham on the other side of the road from the currrent Middle Old Ham. That's in a wash and is seriously unsustainable. The FS really wants move that connection. The current Middle Old Ham isn't really very good in either direction. I'd like to see all Of Brookbank rerouted so it creates a more fluid connection from the Elden side to the DLH side and then back down to Lookout road and the Lower Old ham system as well as Rocky Ridge. This loop system creates that loop-able concept. That climb on Sunset? Oh yeah. Wrap that baby around the back above Little Bear, theres killer views and it would add a bunch of length as well as a more fun alignment. Getting a realignmnet on the far end of RR would help with connectivity overall, sure it's a nice quick, go-to option for people that live over there but it's a main arterial trail that should be purposed to get average riders up and out of the main trail head area. That would get a lot of biking traffic off the paved road and lower Lookout Road. I know that most people skip RR when they are going on longer rides. I see that as a system design flaw.

    One other concept that I really like for fluid connectivity is a single track trail connecting the very bottom of Sunset or Shultz Pass over to the Dry Lakes tank. That would create a more attractive option than going up Little Gnarly, a Forest Road. That with Upper Brookbank would tie the whole room together and replace Climb 3 and Weenies walk, more FS roads that have sort of been turned into trails now turned back to roads. We can do better imo.

    Those are the first things I see as priority and the biggest improvements that the majority would immediately appreciate, even if they don't realize it now.

    After that you could probably start getting into the Lower Old Ham system, the front side of the mountain, Forces Of Nature, X-Mas Tree etc. Really create a killer loop around all of Elden and really nail the whole stacked loop system concept, as well as a stacked loop right out of the Y.

    Then of course there's the more mt bike specific stuff, the really fun things to build imo and what got me involved in the first place but I need to get out side so I'll stop here for now.
    Thank you for your time and effort to get to this point...this sounds rad....where can I send a check? Seriously...




  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    If I were to start on rebuilding the system and had the green light I think I'd start with creating fluid connectivity with mostly bidirectional green/blue stuff. That's the biggest problem imo with out system. It lacks that flow and loop-ability you get with properly planned trail systems. A new Dogfood and Upper Dogfoos that connects all of those upper moto loops would be at the top of the list. That would create lots of loop options in that area, especially when you include shultz and the AZT. that would include various connections and rerouting that stretch of the AZT that connects over to Shultz where Ken-I drops in.

    The other biggest improvement would be the whole Brookbank, Upper Oldham, Sunset and Upper and Lower Onion connections. this creates a whole upper mountain loop system and would get all of the riding traffic off the road. Upper Sunset is gonna stay as is I think, people like tthe Catwalk and Hobbits section, it's sort of our classic iconic trail. I'd fix up the ridgeline stuff and the crappy fall line bits, giving it more flowing connectivity and a better descending feel but keep it;'s overall character. The Onions could be a mid loop connection from Upper Oldham, I've gps'd a proposed trail that cuts over from where the middle of Lower Wasabi currently is, it's a switchbacking point for a very low graded Upper Oldham. Right in that bermy section of Wasabi is a great place for that trail junction. theres a killer rock outcropping with a view that would make for a sweet spot to wrap Lower Onion around that ridge and connect it to Uppers. This whole concept gets everyone off the road unless that's where they want to be. Basically sweet climbing trails, well built bench cuts that would be really fun in either direction. The FS plan was to take L. Brookbank and bring it up to Upper Old Ham on the other side of the road from the currrent Middle Old Ham. That's in a wash and is seriously unsustainable. The FS really wants move that connection. The current Middle Old Ham isn't really very good in either direction. I'd like to see all Of Brookbank rerouted so it creates a more fluid connection from the Elden side to the DLH side and then back down to Lookout road and the Lower Old ham system as well as Rocky Ridge. This loop system creates that loop-able concept. That climb on Sunset? Oh yeah. Wrap that baby around the back above Little Bear, theres killer views and it would add a bunch of length as well as a more fun alignment. Getting a realignmnet on the far end of RR would help with connectivity overall, sure it's a nice quick, go-to option for people that live over there but it's a main arterial trail that should be purposed to get average riders up and out of the main trail head area. That would get a lot of biking traffic off the paved road and lower Lookout Road. I know that most people skip RR when they are going on longer rides. I see that as a system design flaw.

    One other concept that I really like for fluid connectivity is a single track trail connecting the very bottom of Sunset or Shultz Pass over to the Dry Lakes tank. That would create a more attractive option than going up Little Gnarly, a Forest Road. That with Upper Brookbank would tie the whole room together and replace Climb 3 and Weenies walk, more FS roads that have sort of been turned into trails now turned back to roads. We can do better imo.

    Those are the first things I see as priority and the biggest improvements that the majority would immediately appreciate, even if they don't realize it now.

    After that you could probably start getting into the Lower Old Ham system, the front side of the mountain, Forces Of Nature, X-Mas Tree etc. Really create a killer loop around all of Elden and really nail the whole stacked loop system concept, as well as a stacked loop right out of the Y.

    Then of course there's the more mt bike specific stuff, the really fun things to build imo and what got me involved in the first place but I need to get out side so I'll stop here for now.
    That is exactly the response I was looking for. Thanks for elaborating. I have been going back and forth as I was reading and looking at Trail Forks trying to envision your vision. I certainly hope you will be one of the ones helping lay out the MEDL proposal. It would be awesome to see everything laid out on a map!

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    That is exactly the response I was looking for. Thanks for elaborating. I have been going back and forth as I was reading and looking at Trail Forks trying to envision your vision. I certainly hope you will be one of the ones helping lay out the MEDL proposal. It would be awesome to see everything laid out on a map!
    It's not too different from what FBO and raisingarizona proposed adding back into the Proposed Action back in 2013. The numbers correspond to specific recommendations in our comment letter. See p. 9-13. https://flagstaffbiking.org/wp-conte...entsPA_FBO.pdf

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-medl.jpg

    RA's paper napkin sketch currently being molded into a formal proposal
    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-medl_2.jpg

    FBO made recommendations to add Jedi, Ginger, and Red Onion into the system and a new trail called Buckrut that would be routed in between Schultz Creek trail and the proposed Dry Lakes Scenic Loop. The idea being to disperse use and provide an alternative to Schultz. Unfortunately there is an MSO PAC right smack in the middle so rather than fight too hard on this one we are advocating for more trails in Fort Valley (a separate proposal). Red Onion is a critical connector and a new upper Oldham and Lower Brookbank that climbs at a gentler grade will allow any number of loop opportunities. These two are the keystones to the project IMO and make the area a world-class riding area.

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    Thanks rock! Printing out to look it over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    That is exactly the response I was looking for. Thanks for elaborating. I have been going back and forth as I was reading and looking at Trail Forks trying to envision your vision. I certainly hope you will be one of the ones helping lay out the MEDL proposal. It would be awesome to see everything laid out on a map!
    I was going to say "It's funny you mention that" but rockman beat me to it!

    That loop around the upper end of the Dry Lakes is imo critical too, as well as the connection from Shultz Pass to the Dry Lakes. That DLH loop is so beautiful. There's huge dacite slick rocks perfect for rolling and it connects like 10 incredible overlooks. It's the epic technical xc trail Flag is missing.

    And then there's the Reserves, that's our little slice of British Colombia. Those trails will put this place over the top for the expert rider looking for directional challenges.

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maadjurguer View Post
    Thank you for your time and effort to get to this point...this sounds rad....where can I send a check? Seriously...
    thanks Maad. We are working on that stuff. For now there isn't a way to donate directly to the Flagstaff Trail Faeries. Hopefully soon. We want to be a full time trail crew that focuses on technical building, volunteer education, public outreach and regular trail maintenance.

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    I'm working on trail descriptions today. Stay tuned.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    I was going to say "It's funny you mention that" but rockman beat me to it!

    That loop around the upper end of the Dry Lakes is imo critical too, as well as the connection from Shultz Pass to the Dry Lakes. That DLH loop is so beautiful. There's huge dacite slick rocks perfect for rolling and it connects like 10 incredible overlooks. It's the epic technical xc trail Flag is missing.

    And then there's the Reserves, that's our little slice of British Colombia. Those trails will put this place over the top for the expert rider looking for directional challenges.
    The loop that is completed with the realignment of Lower Brookbank tying into Red Onion? Sorry, I don't have the place memorized and I am trying hard to keep up. LOL

    Reserves???? British Columbia??? You have my attention. Is that the blue lines on the proposal in the current Private Reserve/Upper Oldham area?

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    The loop that is completed with the realignment of Lower Brookbank tying into Red Onion? Sorry, I don't have the place memorized and I am trying hard to keep up. LOL

    Reserves???? British Columbia??? You have my attention. Is that the blue lines on the proposal in the current Private Reserve/Upper Oldham area?
    Number 7 on my map is the Upper Dry Lake Loop. It's an advanced xc trail connecting scenic overlooks. It would have a good chunk of semi steep ups and downs over large slick rock formations.

    The Reserves are the blue lines on number 18. It's a system of single and double black directional trails that would have a ton of steep rock features, slick rock, bermed corners etc. Heck, maybe they are more like USA triple diamonds. Good shit for reals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    The Reserves are the blue lines on number 18. It's a system of single and double black directional trails that would have a ton of steep rock features, slick rock, bermed corners etc. Heck, maybe they are more like USA triple diamonds. Good shit for reals.
    I can hardly wait!



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  90. #90
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    Rockman...so I'm the lucky (unlucky) dude that has been putting together the AES routes up in Flag over the past years...After riding the new stuff over on Little Elden and seeing the posts, wondering if by May 25th, my gpx file is going to be "dated"... Is the connection back over to sandy seep done? We rode a little sketchy track off Sandy Seep that cuts off some distance....Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-sandy-seep.jpg

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Rockman...so I'm the lucky (unlucky) dude that has been putting together the AES routes up in Flag over the past years...After riding the new stuff over on Little Elden and seeing the posts, wondering if by May 25th, my gpx file is going to be "dated"... Is the connection back over to sandy seep done? We rode a little sketchy track off Sandy Seep that cuts off some distance....Click image for larger version. 

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    No, it won't be punched in by then. It might be completed with a temporary tie-in north of the hill in your pic. So, you'd ride the old alignment and then veer right or east (opposite of what is shown in your pic). Certainly it will happen on National Trails Day.

    That's nine days from now. Might know more on the closure by the end of the week.

  92. #92
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    Back to our regular programming.

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le-phase3-corner_1024.jpg

    Cinco de Mayo-Little Elden Progress-le-phase2-hand-finish_1024.jpg

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    In a perfect world where you guys could build whatever you wanted. How long would this pipe dream take to complete?

  94. #94
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    Honestly, it's a real shame given the quality of the stuff you guys are building that people don't give you all a little more carte blanche. Keep the dream alive man!

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    Honestly, it's a real shame given the quality of the stuff you guys are building that people don't give you all a little more carte blanche. Keep the dream alive man!
    Well maybe they will when the regional trail plan is completed late fall 2019. Flagstaff Trails Initiative ‚Äď Supporting trail initiatives in Flagstaff

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