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  1. #1
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    Cattle Guard Fail on the Little Pan Loop

    So, I'm doing the Little Pan Loop counter-clockwise, cranking up a small hill on the east side of the loop. Just before I get to the saddle, I see what I think is a cow up ahead. I can't see it clearly because of vegetation between me and the saddle. I think I see a tail.....but I don't see a head. And....it doesn't seem to move. Could it be a black rock?? WTF?? Well, I got to the saddle and found out WTF.

    So, I guess the cattle guards "work". The circle of life......
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cattle Guard Fail on the Little Pan Loop-img-20111119-00427-5-.jpg  


  2. #2
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    My group came across this lovely sight today. We were surprised at the lack of smell, until we got to the down wind side! Peeeew!

  3. #3
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    DUMB COW! Looks like it could have just walked through the opening on the right side there. Must have been trying to impress a heifer with some big utters.

    Where is the Little Pan loop? How long and what type of trail feature do you experience, besides dead livestock?

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  4. #4
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    Just another statisitic who wasn't wearing a helmet when stunting!
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  5. #5
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    New question here.

    Someone posted a picture of the same cow a few weeks ago, and caught a ton of sh*t for it. Be forwarded if you get the same hate traffic.

  6. #6
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    All I see are shoes and a jacket, maybe a pair of gloves.

  7. #7
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    It doesn't smell because it's been there for a long time.

    Cured to perfection I think, heading out there tomorrow, I'm going to bring a fork and a steak knife!
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  8. #8
    Ahhh the pain....
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    You people are all so insensitive. Poor animal suffered a slow death...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    You people are all so insensitive. Poor animal suffered a slow death...
    Aha! You were the one that was getting all the crap. I couldn't remember. Could you please post your picture from a week ago? I really do think it was neat, especially now that there is another one of the same beast a week later.
    On another note, it is amazing how the audience here on MTBR can be so different from day to day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    You people are all so insensitive. Poor animal suffered a slow death...
    You jokster!

    For anybody who thinks this is a cruel way to go, time to take a visit to a slaughterhouse or chicken farmer - that'll make you think twice about eating those again.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by GR1822 View Post
    Someone posted a picture of the same cow a few weeks ago, and caught a ton of sh*t for it. Be forwarded if you get the same hate traffic.
    I did a thread search........didn't remember seeing it on the boards......(was the original one deleted?).

    Why would there be hate traffic? I took a picture of something I saw....I didn't kill it. It's a natural process. Kind of stopped me in my tracks since I wasn't expecting it.

    BTW, just like an earlier poster said, it didn't smell as I stood to take the picture. However, when I went through the gate......the wind shifted.........almost vomited......

    Guess I should contact the BLM.....

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhxChem View Post
    I did a thread search........didn't remember seeing it on the boards......

    Why would there be hate traffic? I took a picture of something I saw....I didn't kill it. It's a natural process.

    BTW, just like an earlier poster said, it didn't smell as I stood to take the picture. However, when I went through the gate......the wind shifted.........almost vomited......

    Guess I should contact the BLM.....
    Thread was removed at the request of the OP when people began to complain about how the poor cow suffered such a terrible death yada yada yada. I personally thought the picture, (and yours) are fascinating.

  13. #13
    Ahhh the pain....
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    yah, I posted the original picture and caught the sh*t storm as result...couldn't resist making a comment....lol....
    I'm taking BBQ sauce on my ride tomorrow...

  14. #14
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    He may not have died a slow death. Could have been a quick neck snap

  15. #15
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    expensive death plus slow death cows arent cheap;... sorry rancher.

  16. #16
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    Once again, a bunch of F U C K I N retards making fun of an animal that died a slow, cruel death.

  17. #17
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    The cow almost made it, probably should have hit it with a little more speed though.

  18. #18
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    I'm not writing this to be a downer or animal hugger just to bring up a bigger issue this bag-o-bones brings up. Virtually all of the public land trails we ride in AZ have grazing leases associated with them and always will. Those ranchers' voices carry deep into the halls of the decision makers, further than our (MTBers) collective voices are ever likely to. If we want to have bike features on our public lands it doesn't behoove us to publicize their failures.
    (grumpy ol' man sermon over).
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobite39 View Post
    Once again, a bunch of F U C K I N retards making fun of an animal that died a slow, cruel death.
    I'm with you on this one. I'm normally the first one to find humor in just about anything but the jokes about the cow are just pathetic (and BTW, not very creative). To think about what that poor cow actually went through is just sad
    JRA

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cenobite39 View Post
    Once again, a bunch of F U C K I N retards making fun of an animal that died a slow, cruel death.
    You're funny!
    Because, one is never enough.

  21. #21
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    I was thinking the same as Idaz, I could see these ramps being taken out because of what has happened.

  22. #22
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    Five Stages of Grief

    Some of us may have been exposed to the evidence this poor creature's demise in prior threads. Those of us who may have traveled further along the continuum of grief may be in a place where we understand and have accepted that this creature's spirit lives on in the ether and more importantly in the hearts and minds of its brethren quadrupedal and otherwise. Collectively, ex-bovine included, many may have accepted that this marvel of the universe is now unencumbered by its mortal coil.

    I for one prefer to believe this cow is not an evil hateful cow, but rather one who understands what is truly important in this life.

    Hopefully realization will be achieved that the cow may be just fine with how each of us feel, even when we all do not feel exactly the same way or think the same things, and that the cow would not want us quibbling amongst ourselves, but rather ruminating together over what life it did have the privilege to enjoy.

    This educational video may help those still struggling with their grief understand.

    Giraffe Five stages of grief - Robot Chicken video - Fanpop

  23. #23
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    One time, a cow died.

  24. #24
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    Must have been a smarter cow. Those raised cattleguards work pretty good. Flat ones on roads work well. Even painted lines mimicking a cattleguard work.

    The grass is always greener on the other side.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    yah, I posted the original picture and caught the sh*t storm as result...couldn't resist making a comment....lol....
    I'm taking BBQ sauce on my ride tomorrow...
    i must have missed that... why would people get bent about your posting a photo of something notable from a ride? unless you killed the cow, or fooked it, or killed it and fooked it. now that would be sick unless you wore a condom.
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  26. #26
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    It's obviously a poor design. I thought it would work well, but this is evidence that there needs to be a change. These guards haven't been in place very long, and already we see this. Cows, for the most part, know not to cross the guards that are embedded in the road or trail. These are something new to them. The cow was able to get to the pinch point and probably thought it could just jump over. I believe if the entrance and exit to this guard were widened, at a 45 degree angle out from the pinch point in the middle, scenes like this would be less likely. I know ranchers don't want to loose any more livestock to this, and they may just decide to pull them out all together and go back to using the gates...or worse . Remember, ranchers have more pull than anyone else who use public lands and if they're losing money things will change.

  27. #27
    Ahhh the pain....
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    Quote Originally Posted by berzerker View Post
    It's obviously a poor design. I thought it would work well, but this is evidence that there needs to be a change. These guards haven't been in place very long, and already we see this. Cows, for the most part, know not to cross the guards that are embedded in the road or trail. These are something new to them. The cow was able to get to the pinch point and probably thought it could just jump over. I believe if the entrance and exit to this guard were widened, at a 45 degree angle out from the pinch point in the middle, scenes like this would be less likely. I know ranchers don't want to loose any more livestock to this, and they may just decide to pull them out all together and go back to using the gates...or worse . Remember, ranchers have more pull than anyone else who use public lands and if they're losing money things will change.
    First, I hope that ranchers and those with "pull" don't over-react. Yes, one cow died, but I've seen dead cattle out while riding BCT that were not caught in a man-made device.
    Second, I think to deem these ramps as a "poor design" is not correct. Even the best designed products fail and one failure does not provide enough data to label the design as bad. As a mechanical engineer and statistics wienie, you need a lot more data to make that kind of determination. What's unfortunate is we'll never see the number of cows that walk up to that ramp and make no attempt. All we see is the truncated data set of one dead cow.
    For those that use Strava to log/compare rides, you will find a segment from the bottom of the pan loop to the gate with the cow....it's appropriately named "Dead Cow Segment"

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybum View Post
    First, I hope that ranchers and those with "pull" don't over-react. Yes, one cow died, but I've seen dead cattle out while riding BCT that were not caught in a man-made device.
    Second, I think to deem these ramps as a "poor design" is not correct. Even the best designed products fail and one failure does not provide enough data to label the design as bad. As a mechanical engineer and statistics wienie, you need a lot more data to make that kind of determination. What's unfortunate is we'll never see the number of cows that walk up to that ramp and make no attempt. All we see is the truncated data set of one dead cow.
    For those that use Strava to log/compare rides, you will find a segment from the bottom of the pan loop to the gate with the cow....it's appropriately named "Dead Cow Segment"

    Cow hazing. The other cows DARED him to do it. It is a sad, sad situation.

  29. #29
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    Just finished a BCT ride and seen a dead cow right off the trail north of Rock springs after the second river crossing. Not in a gate or anything, didn't even look like a rough area to fall and get hurt.
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  30. #30
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    Hey, TacoBeer, saw that same cow.... shoulda been wearin' a helmet...
    The desert is the worst place in the world for cattle grazing. It takes like 5 billion acres to support one cow in AZ.....you can raise about 6 trillion cows on a quarter section in Ohio.... but I agree ranchers have a big voice in land use and losing a cow is $$$$ lost. New design may be in order.

  31. #31
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    Personally I see nothing wrong with taking and posting the photo. It's almost journalistic. I don't see why people would get bent out of shape about it. It is a very interesting photo and I'm surprised at the lack of predator damage to the carcass. I do feel a bit sorry for the cow, that had to be hard way to go. A trip to the slaughter house would have been much better.

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  32. #32
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    It doesnt bother me...I also think people today are way too sensitive. Of course no one wants an animal to suffer but some people are acting like this was an intentional act.

    BTW...what are the cattle guards for? Is it so people can ride/walk over them but the cows cant?

  33. #33
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    People are bored and overreact...

    There are too many cows out there mucking up the water holes anyway. Planes are bad for birds, roads are bad for deer, people are bad for nature, and cattle gaurds are bad for cattle.

  34. #34
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    10,000 : 1 against that cow dying on that cattle guard. Heck, I'm afraid to walk across those cattle guards with cycling shoes on. There is no way a cow tried to walk across that. It's pretty clear to me that if a cow were confronted by such an obstacle, it would think, "I've got to learn to manual before I try that."

  35. #35
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    If that cow would have been on a 29er, it would have made it. Those big wheels just keep on rollin

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzTreky View Post
    People are bored and overreact...

    There are too many cows out there mucking up the water holes anyway. Planes are bad for birds, roads are bad for deer, people are bad for nature, and cattle gaurds are bad for cattle.
    Luckily a few beers makes it all seem to fall into place doesn't it.
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  37. #37
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    Update

    UPDATE:

    It was announced (by Babs Sanders, I believe), to thunderous applause by those who attended the Black Canyon Trail work day this past weekend, that the cow has been removed from the cattle guard. It apparently is still somewhere (hidden, I suppose) in the area, since as they tried to move her....(put down your food, folks)..... "she started falling apart." They even had pictures!!! Nature will continue to do its part. The circle of life.......

    I see that Raybum (on another thread) has now called the saddle where the cattle guard is located the dead cow segment. As good a name as any...... We'll see how long it sticks.............so to speak.........

  38. #38
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    The consequences of nature!
    Such a waste of steak!

  39. #39
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    We were just there this past Saturday and someone told us about the cow but we never saw it. They did indeed remove it.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECEGatorTuro View Post
    We were just there this past Saturday and someone told us about the cow but we never saw it. They did indeed remove it.
    You could indeed, however, still smell it! I was there on Sunday.
    Fall is here. Woo-hoo!

  41. #41
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    How do you think animals die?

    Out in the real world animals don't get euthanized. For native creatures death almost alway involves succumbing slowly to disease or injury which if the critter is lucky makes it fall prey to a toothy predator that typically disables it just enough to allow the eating to begin safely. I canít tell if predators helped this bovine along but hopefully they did.

  42. #42
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    that was so very festive of you...

  43. #43
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    thats crazy

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacoBeer View Post
    Just finished a BCT ride and seen a dead cow right off the trail north of Rock springs after the second river crossing. Not in a gate or anything, didn't even look like a rough area to fall and get hurt.
    I just rode the BCT for the first time yesterday. I did note some narrow sections cows could easily fall off while walking or running on the trail. I would say those numerous sections need trail improvements to bring them up to a cow friendly standard.

    I can see the ranchers demanding the trail be widened in numerous sections to avoid future rollovers.

    Has anyone ever eaten a cow that has only grazed on the vegetation found around the BCT area. Where do they get their water during the summer months?

    I was an Ag Bus Major in College and one of my electives was Feeds and Feeding. I use to be able to figure out feed formulas for cows to get them fattened up for slaughtering. I have no clue what the feed value of TDN would be grazing on BCT vegetation. Those cows must be used for fast food hamburgers.

    TD
    Last edited by traildoc; 12-24-2011 at 02:15 AM.

  45. #45
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    Looking in to making a few of these for the AZT...I think there is a failure in the size. The bike guard needs to be taller (and therefore harder for cows and mountain bikers). The ones we have here in Reddington are a lot steeper (and scarier to for MTBers).

  46. #46
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    Our first design was based on the standard roadway cattle guard which has a span of 7 feet and we keeped the opening between the rails the same. Basicaly we just narrowed up the roadway cattleguard, but used smaller steel for the cross members. After a cow tried to jump the first design and got stuck in the cattle guard near the BCC trailhead, the BLM worked with the rancher and came up with the modified raised cattle guard that are now installed along the BCT. Cows are stupid and they do get stuck even in the roadway cattle guards. So we design the best we can to prevent 99% of the cows from crossing and balance that with the safety for the riders. Going to high, as you say will be too scary for most riders and then they will be underutlilized.


    Quote Originally Posted by azepicriderandrunner View Post
    Looking in to making a few of these for the AZT...I think there is a failure in the size. The bike guard needs to be taller (and therefore harder for cows and mountain bikers). The ones we have here in Reddington are a lot steeper (and scarier to for MTBers).

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    Our first design was based on the standard roadway cattle guard which has a span of 7 feet and we keeped the opening between the rails the same. Basicaly we just narrowed up the roadway cattleguard, but used smaller steel for the cross members. After a cow tried to jump the first design and got stuck in the cattle guard near the BCC trailhead, the BLM worked with the rancher and came up with the modified raised cattle guard that are now installed along the BCT. Cows are stupid and they do get stuck even in the roadway cattle guards. So we design the best we can to prevent 99% of the cows from crossing and balance that with the safety for the riders. Going to high, as you say will be too scary for most riders and then they will be underutlilized.
    I tend to agree with this. Any guard will have a few casualties, just how it is. And if those BCT ramps where any higher, personally, I wouldn't ride them - as it is, I walk one or two of the uphill ones.
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  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicrider View Post
    Going to high, as you say will be too scary for most riders and then they will be underutlilized.
    Dale,
    Have you ridden the ones in Reddington? (on top of Molino or near Reddington Rd after Italian Trap) Do you think those are too high?

    I think it is a great argument, but between being underutilized vs. a bad design, I would go for the former. It is a tough call, either way. The thing that sways me to veer for a higher design would be having to compensate the rancher.

    That said, I am interested in seeing more of your versions.

  49. #49
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    Was able to ride the ones out of BCC trailhead. Went south from the parking lot, towards LPL. Going to the river was cake walk, a little freak out factor, but rode it the first time. Coming from the river to the parking lot, wow, that climb up on the lower crossing was steep and did put a little bit of "respect" in me.

    I saw the round bars on the ramp section, my first thought was "I hope my tires are dry!"

    Overall, great design, not bad riding, more of a mental thing.

    I would tend to agree with Chad - higher and less utilized would be better than buying unusable beef jerky.

  50. #50
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    Yes, I have ridden the one atthe top of Molino and it was one of the original concepts we looked at. I think it came down to what level of risk BLM was willing to go with. The higher the raised cattle guard is, the higher the risk of someone falling off or getting stuck in the bars while falling and breaking a leg. Compensating a rancher for a cow now and then is a whole lot cheeper and lower risk than a high cost of a lawsuit. We originally went with an at grade cattle guard based on one that has been in use for many years on the Hermosa Creek trail outside of Durango that is in an area that has a high concentration of cows.


    Cattle guard on Hermosa Creek trail:


    Quote Originally Posted by azepicriderandrunner View Post
    Dale,
    Have you ridden the ones in Reddington? (on top of Molino or near Reddington Rd after Italian Trap) Do you think those are too high?

    I think it is a great argument, but between being underutilized vs. a bad design, I would go for the former. It is a tough call, either way. The thing that sways me to veer for a higher design would be having to compensate the rancher.

    That said, I am interested in seeing more of your versions.

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