Building new trails . . .- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Building new trails . . .

    I see some spots out at McDowell Mt. park and places around T100/Phoenix Mt. Preserve where I would like to see some "new" trails built. Maybe some nice dirt berms, a step up jump, a table top or two, jumping areas with drops of different sizes . . .

    I know it's not permitted to just go out in the desert with a shovel and start trail building, but I also know there are a lot of "unlisted" trails (at least in the T100 area). So, what is the process to get trails built or be a part of building them myself?

    I've asked about trail cleanup and all the answers I get are directed at racers that can get points for being on work crews. I'm not into trail building or cleanup for the points, more for the riding (I don't race). Anybody know who to talk with?

  2. #2
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    Building new trails in the 100/dd area would require working with the land manager. There's already a ton of 'social' trails there, and they probably wouldn't be amenable, particularly to the sort of stunt laden stuff you're considering.

    If you're looking to get involved with trail building, the Black Canyon Trail is under construcion up by new river and table mesa. I'll post here next time they do trailwork. IMBA is involved there, and apparently interested in providing some areas for technical riding. The trail is on BLM land, and it's probably easier to get stunts built out there than in a phoenix city park.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    I see some spots out at McDowell Mt. park and places around T100/Phoenix Mt. Preserve where I would like to see some "new" trails built. Maybe some nice dirt berms, a step up jump, a table top or two, jumping areas with drops of different sizes . . .

    I know it's not permitted to just go out in the desert with a shovel and start trail building, but I also know there are a lot of "unlisted" trails (at least in the T100 area). So, what is the process to get trails built or be a part of building them myself?

    I've asked about trail cleanup and all the answers I get are directed at racers that can get points for being on work crews. I'm not into trail building or cleanup for the points, more for the riding (I don't race). Anybody know who to talk with?

  3. #3
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    Please, please don't build dirt jumps in the mountain parks. We have enough PR issues as it is. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    I see some spots out at McDowell Mt. park and places around T100/Phoenix Mt. Preserve where I would like to see some "new" trails built. Maybe some nice dirt berms, a step up jump, a table top or two, jumping areas with drops of different sizes . . .

    I know it's not permitted to just go out in the desert with a shovel and start trail building, but I also know there are a lot of "unlisted" trails (at least in the T100 area). So, what is the process to get trails built or be a part of building them myself?

    I've asked about trail cleanup and all the answers I get are directed at racers that can get points for being on work crews. I'm not into trail building or cleanup for the points, more for the riding (I don't race). Anybody know who to talk with?

  4. #4
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    If you're really interested in putting together a trail proposal, I recommend buying & reading IMBA's new "Trail Solutions" book. It's pretty pricey but it's really good. It has sections on how to get permission to build a trail and also techniques for actually designing and building the trail.

    http://stores.yahoo.com/imba/trsobo.html

    But you'll be hard-pressed to get permission to build stunts/jumps in the parks for a couple reasons. For one, most land managers want to maximize trail potential by building "multi-use" trails that hikers/bikers/equestrians can use. That way you keep the majority happy. It's difficult to convince land managers to dedicate resources to a single-use trail or area like bike stunts. Another issue is the ever-present liability. Stunts look dangerous and land-managers will be paranoid that some kid's parents will sue if little Johnny breaks his arm after casing on your step-up. If you put together a good proposal and convince the land managers to support your project, more power to you, but it won't be easy.

    You might want to attend the Black Canyon trail work event on 9/25. The IMBA trail care crew will be there and they could probably answer a lot of questions you may have about how to get started on your project.

    I also echo other's comments not to build trails without permission. Our access to trails is always tenuous and all it takes is a handful of vocal hikers to complain about the illegal bike trails to cause a lot of problems for cyclists.

  5. #5
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    i contacted estrella mtn park via email, volunteering to build/maintain trails at estrella(that is my closest county park). they said to come into their office and fill out some forms. they do almost all their trail work during the cool season. you could do the same at McDowell.

    i found the county park site by typing 'maricopa county parks' and went from there.

    as for the T100 area. all the social trails are supposed to be off limits(only trails that are on the map are to be used). so far the city park folk are looking the other way when trail users use the unmarked trails. i would not want to upset that applecart. many of those unofficial trails are more fun than T100 itself.

    Rita

  6. #6
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    Some good responses so far

    Didn't I see some stuff about some 4th of July jump building in the trails in the Tuscon area? How is it that "they" can go out and build "tabletops" and stuff, and who's land are they doing it on?

    Yea, I get the unfortunate reality of "multi-use" trails.

    I also see stuff about the DH FR park in Oregon and places in and around the north East.

    I have noticed that over the last 5+ years I have never seen any kind of trail work on T100, after a monsoon storm lots of sections get washed out, sections with loose "softball" sized rocks that for a horse would be like walking on marbles, and mt. bikers call "technical" general trail errosion, trees and shrubs that grow into the trail untill someone just snaps off the branch, or on the flip side, sections of trails at McDowell Mt. park that travel for about 1 mile in the middle of a wash with 2 foot deep sand, great for horses, not so good for human powered bikes(what's it called Sceneic View or something). And what's the deal with waterbars in the middle of a FLAT trail that doesn't have a chance of water caused errosion? Rant, rant, rant, done.

    Ok, so I figure there are a fair amount of folks that would like some jumps and stuff, I'm not talking North-Shore level, more like natural jumps and rock drops, or roll-ins and stuff to play with "bigger" bikes on.

    So how do we get together a "group" or "club" or whatever to work on building something like this? Maybe on the BLM land (seems like that might be a realistic thing) up by the Black Canyon Trail or whatever?

    Yea, post up more info on the New River area. Also I saw some stuff about a new park in Queen Creek, anybody know what's going on with the trail network down there?

    Am I all alone on this, or is there anyone else that wants to do more than just "ride the trails that we have?" If the "freeriders" in Portland can get a "park" built, why can't we?

  7. #7
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    You know I already talked to the McDowell guys

    'cause you were standing right next to me when I did it!

    Crash said they already had their "trail plan" and that I would have an easier time parting the Red Sea than getting new trails built in McDowell Mt. park, but you know this because you were standing right there? It's hell getting old isn't it.

  8. #8
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    No, You Didn't...

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    Didn't I see some stuff about some 4th of July jump building in the trails in the Tuscon area? How is it that "they" can go out and build "tabletops" and stuff, and who's land are they doing it on?

    ?
    That was something that a group was doing in the backyard on some private property.

    If you want to build jumps and tabletops in your backyard, no body is stopping you, but we don't go for that stuff on our managed public trails in Tucson any more than you do in the Valley.

    John W.
    Body Armor--Don't Leave Home Without It!

  9. #9
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    New trail on State Land in the Golder Ranch area!

    Unfortunately its illegal and badly laid out by some twit from Miraval. I discovered it a week ago and in a quandry on what to do about it. Miraval is a very high end resort near WOW off of Lago Del Oro and they have a reputation for cutting illegal trails.

    When I discovered it I walked it and it was obvious that it was a hiker/biker trail in its early stages of development. However it was erosion prone and the builder hacked up alot of vegitation and tried to use it to outline his trail, that and building carins every twenty feet or less. The trail is definately not based off an existing cattle/game trail.

    How do I know Miraval cut it? I followed the MTB track of its builder all the way back to Miraval and the trail also fit the pattern of other illegal trails that Miraval has cut.

    Any thoughts as what to would be great.

    Find the dumbass trail builder and bust his knee caps with my pump? Booby trap it? Not my style. I did monkey wrench it by utiliazing the builders trail "sign" to misdirect him in a few places if he tries to rebuild it or hike it.

    Let them build it? We could use more trail, eventually it may become legal.

    Destroy it before it starts. I did this and am headed back today to see if the A-hole has been back out there with his nippers.

    Let um build it and then I'll tweak it? Could be an excellent trail with some know how.

    Complain to the authorities? I am feeling out my channels before I decide to take it to the State. Miraval seems to have some pull having previously staved off wildcat trail complaints.

    Louis
    Last edited by SunDog; 08-19-2004 at 04:37 PM.

  10. #10
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    Check out info on Embudo Canyon

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    Didn't I see some stuff about some 4th of July jump building in the trails in the Tuscon area? How is it that "they" can go out and build "tabletops" and stuff, and who's land are they doing it on?

    Yea, I get the unfortunate reality of "multi-use" trails.

    I also see stuff about the DH FR park in Oregon and places in and around the north East.

    I have noticed that over the last 5+ years I have never seen any kind of trail work on T100, after a monsoon storm lots of sections get washed out, sections with loose "softball" sized rocks that for a horse would be like walking on marbles, and mt. bikers call "technical" general trail errosion, trees and shrubs that grow into the trail untill someone just snaps off the branch, or on the flip side, sections of trails at McDowell Mt. park that travel for about 1 mile in the middle of a wash with 2 foot deep sand, great for horses, not so good for human powered bikes(what's it called Sceneic View or something). And what's the deal with waterbars in the middle of a FLAT trail that doesn't have a chance of water caused errosion? Rant, rant, rant, done.

    Ok, so I figure there are a fair amount of folks that would like some jumps and stuff, I'm not talking North-Shore level, more like natural jumps and rock drops, or roll-ins and stuff to play with "bigger" bikes on.

    So how do we get together a "group" or "club" or whatever to work on building something like this? Maybe on the BLM land (seems like that might be a realistic thing) up by the Black Canyon Trail or whatever?

    Yea, post up more info on the New River area. Also I saw some stuff about a new park in Queen Creek, anybody know what's going on with the trail network down there?

    Am I all alone on this, or is there anyone else that wants to do more than just "ride the trails that we have?" If the "freeriders" in Portland can get a "park" built, why can't we?
    This summer while riding in New Mexico, my husband and I were directed to a freeride park that was built in the Embudo Canyon which lies in the foothills of the Sandia's. The park was built through a grant writen by local riders and a lbs.

    The park sits on open space land that houses an extensive network of trails that are
    used by hikers and mountain bikers. The facility includes a dual slalom course, a dirt
    jump course and a downhill course which was all built by and maintained by over 200 hours of volunteer labor.

    Since riding there, I too wonder if there are other freeriders in our area that are interested in trail/dj building on that level. It's worth checking out.

    I don't know where you live, but we usually get our djing in a Papago. There is some cool
    stuff built there, but it could use some care.

    Hope that info helps to get things going.

    Dru

  11. #11
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    Since riding there, I too wonder if there are other freeriders in our area that are interested in trail/dj building on that level. It's worth checking out.

    I don't know where you live, but we usually get our djing in a Papago. There is some cool
    stuff built there, but it could use some care.


    I would be interested in helping with a project like that at Papago. I know absolutley nothing about how to build or that stuff. But i own a shovel and am willing to sweat. Where do we go from here?
    I'm UNIQUE... just like everybody else.

  12. #12
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    Right on, that's the idea

    I too have a few simple garden tools and am willing to build.

    Anyone know where we go from here?

  13. #13
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    Answer to your query

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    Didn't I see some stuff about some 4th of July jump building in the trails in the Tuscon area? How is it that "they" can go out and build "tabletops" and stuff, and who's land are they doing it on?
    Trails/berms/tabletop/jumps/rock garden built by "they" on "they's" private property.

    More to go. I'm not done, yet.

    I hope that explains the 'how is it' mystery.
    Last edited by C.J.; 08-19-2004 at 09:36 PM.
    CJ
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog
    Let um build it and then I'll tweak it? Could be an excellent trail with some know how.
    This option gets my vote. The most constructive of evils.

    Now that the trail is cut, it will be used, by people and animals, and thus developed. Period! Especially if Miraval has the pull you mentioned. Dismantling this guys trail will likely engender a competetive edge and motivate him to "win" by becoming even more agressive in his efforts. Use your skills to tweak the thing, make an art piece out of it since it's already there and, again, WILL developed.

    Or commit to completely erasing the thing and installing official-looking sign warning him / them away.

    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog
    Complain to the authorities?
    God no, please! A complaint about bikers is a complaint about ALL bikers! Thant's how agencies see things! You'll be shooting yourself - and all of us - in the foot.


    Quote Originally Posted by SunDog
    Any thoughts as what to would be great...

    Find the dumbass trail builder and bust his knee caps with my pump? Booby trap it? Not my style...

    Let them build it? We could use more trail, eventually it may become legal.

    Destroy it before it starts. I did this and am headed back today to see if the A-hole has been back out there with his nippers.

    Let um build it and then I'll tweak it? Could be an excellent trail with some know how.

    Complain to the authorities? I am feeling out my channels before I decide to take it to the State. Miraval seems to have some pull having previously staved off wildcat trail complaints.

    Louis

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin'in'Zona
    This option gets my vote. The most constructive of evils.

    Now that the trail is cut, it will be used, by people and animals, and thus developed. Period! Especially if Miraval has the pull you mentioned. Dismantling this guys trail will likely engender a competetive edge and motivate him to "win" by becoming even more agressive in his efforts. Use your skills to tweak the thing, make an art piece out of it since it's already there and, again, WILL developed.

    Or commit to completely erasing the thing and installing official-looking sign warning him / them away.


    God no, please! A complaint about bikers is a complaint about ALL bikers! Thant's how agencies see things! You'll be shooting yourself - and all of us - in the foot.

    why can't we take a page from those guys in joliet illinois who built that crazy park that was in mtb action. only i think they built on private land instead of public. surely there must be private land in trhe valley where an owner can be persuaded to let mtb build for good reasons, like keeping kids out of trouble or something.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    'cause you were standing right next to me when I did it!

    Crash said they already had their "trail plan" and that I would have an easier time parting the Red Sea than getting new trails built in McDowell Mt. park, but you know this because you were standing right there? It's hell getting old isn't it.
    damn. yer right, you talked to Rand(nice guy). i was a bit sun baked that day, that's my story and i am sticking to it.

    about being old, it is hell. now if you are insinuating my memory is getting bad, no, it has always been bad, age has nothing to do with it.

    Rita

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin'in'Zona
    Now that the trail is cut, it will be used, by people and animals, and thus developed. Period!
    Not true. Period.

    Out there last night, revegitation area intact, no new signs of use. Revegitation was so complete that the former "turnoff" couldn't be found at all!!!!! (It helps to know what you are doing, how to handle desert plants, build trail, remove trail, etc.)

    The attempt at a trail was on terrain that exceeded Mr. Mirival's ability.

    With the recent rains, the trails are tough, again. All the sections "weenied-up" by the different "advocates and maintenance groups" have been, mostly, restored to their rocky, tough, non-forgiving natural form.

    Now, if we could get the riders to stop making "alternative" lines around the hard stuff, we'd be moving forward.
    CJ
    WOW Arizona!

  18. #18
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    Actually I talked to both of them

    Quote Originally Posted by AZtortoise
    damn. yer right, you talked to Rand(nice guy). i was a bit sun baked that day, that's my story and i am sticking to it.

    about being old, it is hell. now if you are insinuating my memory is getting bad, no, it has always been bad, age has nothing to do with it.

    Rita
    Rand just seemed to sugar coat his No answer better than Crash, they are both great guys, willing to help when it's possible and realistic when it's not worth the trouble.

    I ain't insinuating nutting, 'cause I can't even spell insinuating. It's hell getting old for me too, I think my memory is going, among other things, but I forgot.

  19. #19
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    Sorry C.J. IMBA doesn't seem to share your view

    Quote Originally Posted by C.J.
    With the recent rains, the trails are tough, again. All the sections "weenied-up" by the different "advocates and maintenance groups" have been, mostly, restored to their rocky, tough, non-forgiving natural form.

    Now, if we could get the riders to stop making "alternative" lines around the hard stuff, we'd be moving forward.
    This is just an example or how MOST of our existing trails are ill-built, poorly constructed, not maintained, and just generally haphazardly (is that even a word, never mind I spelled in wrong) routed.

    See sample page from IMBA's trail building book
    Attached Images Attached Images

  20. #20
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    In many ways, the bike parks have more in common with skate parks than they do with traditional cycling trails. If you're serious about putting together a trail proposal, you might want to get some ideas from people who have successfully implemented skate parks in AZ in addition to contacting groups who've done this in other states. I think you're underestimating the work required to get something like this approved. I'm seeing posts about picking up your shovel and getting to work but that's putting the cart way before the horse.

    If you're just starting the planning process, I doubt that you'll be moving dirt for at least a year. If you really want this to happen, you need to research how to put together a good proposal to convince a private land owner or public land manager to listen to you. (Some serious schmoozing never hurts.) You should also try to line up some funding to help with the project (a bike park will require some serious dirt movers - not just a shovel & macleod). You'll need to survey the land and design the park. By this time, I'm sure you'll have generated a lot of excitement and will have plenty of volunteers for labor but that's probably the easiest task you'll have. Good luck.

  21. #21
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    Thanks for letting me know!

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    This is just an example or how MOST of our existing trails are ill-built, poorly constructed, not maintained, and just generally haphazardly (is that even a word, never mind I spelled in wrong) routed.
    Before you cast aspersions, you should know that of which you speak.

    I've had "formal" training from IMBA, National Forest Service, State Agencies and was an AZ Trail Steward for a period of time. I was a training instructor for the AZ Trail (letter of commendation hanging on wall).

    When IMBA's Trail Care Crew (Joey Klein), was making it's inaugural debut in Tucson, I was asked to instruct them in proper cacti transplantation technique. It was to be utilized for the specific purpose of obscuring and revegetating "social trails" and has been incorporated into their curriculum for the southwest. Subsequent/former TCC member Rich Edwards was sitting next to me. (He was just another "attendee" at the time.) So, in the past, I had been a little involved in trail building/design/layout/maintenance.

    Due to an extended recovery from a life-threatening injury, I haven't been "on the trail" as much as I used to be. (That has been changing, now that I have a break from surgeries.)

    I have a little idea of what I'm doing and helping others to do/learn…

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    See sample page from IMBA's trail building book
    Fall Zones, remove rocks, add mulch?

    That application in our area is laughable, but, IMBA is the definitive authority for EVERYWHERE, so, who am I to argue?

    Every trail doesn't need to be "safe" or built like a skate park. Nor, does every trail need to be made so every level of rider can "clean" the whole thing.
    Last edited by C.J.; 08-20-2004 at 10:06 AM. Reason: spelling
    CJ
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  22. #22
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    therein lies the problem . . .

    I get the level of commitment and effort, and understand the idea that first you have to get approval, design, etc.

    and here is the problem: not unlike yourself, lots of folks say they understand how to get the process going, and wish me luck, however nobody seems to have, or will make the time to make it happen.

    We are all TALK, other than to say, good luck with your project, or other places have done it, but I don't have time to come to meetings, contact people, coordinate fund rasing, I'm too busy playing with my kids, going to the movies, watching TV, or riding our existing trails.

    Everybody wants change, but nobody will make any effort. We are a generation or very self-serving people (it's all about ME, what I want, what I can get, what's Mine) and we want everything the easy way, if there is effort involved, "well, let someone else do it, I'm too busy with MY activities)

    I know not everyone is like this.

    How can I say this best? One of my biggest frustrations with these forums is how folks have this "nice and helpful" persona on the boards but when you encounter them on the trail they are gennerally "rude" people with a 'tude.

    Again, I know not everyone is like this, in fact I have meet a few folks through these boards that "keep it real" and seem to be "straight up folks"

    I'm guessing that we would need to start some kind of a "club" or "group" and take it form there.

    So, who is willing to step up and put forth effort to work together as a group and make it happen?

    (think John Belushi's speach from the end of Aminal house), was it over when the german's bombed Peral Harbor, no and it's not over now, lets' go, who's with me . . .

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    How can I say this best? One of my biggest frustrations with these forums is how folks have this "nice and helpful" persona on the boards but when you encounter them on the trail they are gennerally "rude" people with a 'tude.
    The rest of your message aside, this strikes me as almost exactly the opposite of my own experience on this board and the Net in general. You, for example, have this whiny persona on this board but I'm sure you're a stand-up guy in person.

    Building trails is difficult, time-consuming, and possibly not worth the effort given the energy required to do it. Let me explain.

    First off, Arizona is blessed with a) an abundance of open singletrack and b) a political climate that makes closures highly unlikely (despite the Cassandras who fear "another Mount Tam" here). Do you really need more singletrack? Have you ridden out every mile of what's already available? New is nice, but new also requires upkeep. It also introduces populations into areas that maybe don't need to be exposed to the public.

    Building a trail takes way more than volunteers and tools. I have a massive trail-building project in the works and the very fastest I can expect anything to get done is about five years. FIVE YEARS. That is a long time for anyone to maintain focus while waiting for a project to come to fruition.

    I worked with Ken Miner, the KS IMBA rep who's succeeded in opening dozens of miles of new trail in his home state, on working out the best strategies for opening legit, recognized trails. It's an involved process. There are proposals to write, negotiations with other user groups, negotiations with land managers, presentations to design... Does any of this sound like volunteers with shovels yet?

    Mind you this is a major project on a major as-yet-untouched mountain, and I'd frankly rather work WITH USFS and other user groups than go it alone. There's a lot to be said for mavericks like Louis and CJ who live in an area where LMs are receptive to new development -- once you get the thumbs-up and don't abuse the LM's trust, you get a lot of leeway. But I know those guys have spent YEARS developing relationships with the LM, they know how to build quality trails, and they're not criss-crossing the desert with crappy lines.

    Same thing goes for the Fort Valley folks in Flagstaff. The bulk of the work they do has to do with relationship building, not trail building, as I understand it.

    So basically I'd ask you what you're trying to accomplish by opening more trails in the North Montain and McDowell Mountain parks. Are there areas of the park that cannot be accessed by users? Or are you just eyeing some sweet-looking lines? Because that's the difference between trail building and (the bad kind of) freeriding.

    p.
    Don't be that guy! Read the forum guidelines.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    The rest of your message aside, this strikes me as almost exactly the opposite of my own experience on this board and the Net in general. You, for example, have this whiny persona on this board but I'm sure you're a stand-up guy in person.
    I think many people see me as sort of an a$$ on the board, but when they meet me, well - they think I am a total a$$.

    All kidding aside, I agree with you Paul and think that DJBiker has it reversed. All the people I have ultimately met from this board are better in person. It is easier to be an a$$ on the board or to be mis-perceived as an a$$.

    As for trail building, I am a relative newbie on dirt (2.5 years) and have not come close to exploring a meaningful percentage of the trails in this state. I like things as they are and do not believe we should stir the pot without being very very careful. More trails is not on my top ten list of mtb related changes I would like to see. First on my list is that we build a dome over Phoenix in the summer and refridgerate this city.

    PS - mornings seem to be getting cooler.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  25. #25
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    Ouch

    I'm not sure I even know what "aspersions" are, so I would never "cast" them. In any rate, I'm sorry if you were offended.

    So, are you pissed at me for "pointing out" that IMBA doesn't share your views?

    or pissed at IMBA for not sharing your views? (and having the unmittagated gual to publish it in their trail building resources book)

    I don't share your "views" either, but that's just one man's opinion, so who really gives a crap. No one listens to me anyway.

    I think technical features on trails should have optional routes.

    reasons for options:

    keeps the feature from being damaged by people walking over it

    lets all skill levels enjoy the trail (isn't that what it's all about?)

    allows emergency services easy access in the event of an accident (accidents do happen, don't they? and having someone be able to get to you in a timely manner would be a GOOD thing right?)

    reasons against options:

    Takes too much time to build

    Takes too much space (space money hungery developers need to build golf courses on)(we don't need to go into the whole open space, land development issues here, it's much too complicated and long winded)

    I would say your best response would have been "hum, that's a different opinion than mine, I'll take that information into account when I form my new opinion.

    Insead you got defensive and took it personally as an attack, it's not. It's just another opinion.

    The ultimate goal is to make Mt. biking enjoyable and accessable to as many people/riders/skill levels as possible right?

  26. #26
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    This may not apply to all park, but I was talking with one of the rangers at the White Tank Mountain Park, and he was interested (and said the park was also) very open to ideas to be more accomadating to the mountain biking crowd. He mentioned that the mountain biker group was one of the parks main sources of income throughout the summer.

    I mentioned how nice it would be to have a ramada type structure with a picnic table setup in it.

    Maybe this would be a place to start...



    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    I see some spots out at McDowell Mt. park and places around T100/Phoenix Mt. Preserve where I would like to see some "new" trails built. Maybe some nice dirt berms, a step up jump, a table top or two, jumping areas with drops of different sizes . . .

    I know it's not permitted to just go out in the desert with a shovel and start trail building, but I also know there are a lot of "unlisted" trails (at least in the T100 area). So, what is the process to get trails built or be a part of building them myself?

    I've asked about trail cleanup and all the answers I get are directed at racers that can get points for being on work crews. I'm not into trail building or cleanup for the points, more for the riding (I don't race). Anybody know who to talk with?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    I get the level of commitment and effort, and understand the idea that first you have to get approval, design, etc.

    and here is the problem: not unlike yourself, lots of folks say they understand how to get the process going, and wish me luck, however nobody seems to have, or will make the time to make it happen.

    We are all TALK, other than to say, good luck with your project, or other places have done it, but I don't have time to come to meetings, contact people, coordinate fund rasing, I'm too busy playing with my kids, going to the movies, watching TV, or riding our existing trails.

    Everybody wants change, but nobody will make any effort. We are a generation or very self-serving people (it's all about ME, what I want, what I can get, what's Mine) and we want everything the easy way, if there is effort involved, "well, let someone else do it, I'm too busy with MY activities)

    I know not everyone is like this.

    How can I say this best? One of my biggest frustrations with these forums is how folks have this "nice and helpful" persona on the boards but when you encounter them on the trail they are gennerally "rude" people with a 'tude.

    Again, I know not everyone is like this, in fact I have meet a few folks through these boards that "keep it real" and seem to be "straight up folks"

    I'm guessing that we would need to start some kind of a "club" or "group" and take it form there.

    So, who is willing to step up and put forth effort to work together as a group and make it happen?

    (think John Belushi's speach from the end of Aminal house), was it over when the german's bombed Peral Harbor, no and it's not over now, lets' go, who's with me . . .
    most everyone badmouths estrella park, and with good reason, it pretty much sucks for mtb'ing. McDowell is better now than it was say 10 years ago, and i heard that this year is the year that estrella gets some focus. since estrella is 'my' nearest county park i am volunteering to help them make better trails. i also intend on getting to know the trail folk there, to build a working relationship with them and hopefully gain some respect, at least enough respect so that they will hear my opinions and suggestions. i am looking at a long term working relationship, heck, it may take a year before the 'right' people know i am there. in the meantime i get to work on trails that hopefully i will be able to ride by next spring. it will all be their plans and i will have little or no say in what is done this season, but maybe next year...

    Rita

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    I get the level of commitment and effort, and understand the idea that first you have to get approval, design, etc.

    and here is the problem: not unlike yourself, lots of folks say they understand how to get the process going, and wish me luck, however nobody seems to have, or will make the time to make it happen.

    We are all TALK, other than to say, good luck with your project, or other places have done it, but I don't have time to come to meetings, contact people, coordinate fund rasing, I'm too busy playing with my kids, going to the movies, watching TV, or riding our existing trails.
    This is the fundamental problem with any volunteer effort. We all have conflicting priorities in life and can't commit to everything. But I disagree that "We are all TALK". I try to keep active in volunteer efforts and do make time to go to some meetings but I can't do everything. I'm committed to some other projects right now and simply don't have any more time. It's all priorities.


    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    Everybody wants change, but nobody will make any effort. We are a generation or very self-serving people (it's all about ME, what I want, what I can get, what's Mine) and we want everything the easy way, if there is effort involved, "well, let someone else do it, I'm too busy with MY activities)
    I'm going to have to disagree with this one too. Maybe you didn't mean to single out me as an individual, but there are a lot of people in our community who volunteer many hours to causes they support. Volunteerism is a thankless job and most people never even know what you did. To say that these people are self-serving just because they don't have time to serve YOUR cause is false. Don't assume that people aren't willing to directly help you just because they're too busy partying every weekend.

    I truly do wish you luck. I'm not putting on a "nice and helpful" persona (in fact I'm probably much more personable in real life). I think that there is a lack of legal "freeride-able" areas in Phoenix and I'd much rather have a good freeride park as opposed to a bunch of illegal lines off of existing trails. But personally, I prefer epics to jumps. I'll gladly take a few minutes on the internet to talk about trail advocacy (I'd even take time to ride with you if I could ever get out of work at a decent hour) but I'm already over-committed and can't respond to your call to arms. (Although the Belushi reference does make the heart swell.)

  29. #29
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    I try to be open minded

    Let me see if I can tackle your questions/comments without typing a 50 page "manafiesto"

    First off, I can't spell, so sue me. (just wanted to clear that up)

    Second your comment about me being a "stand-up" guy was very restrained, and thank you for that. I'm sure it took every bit of your energy to keep from "going off" on me. Cheers.

    I think people "in general" tend to treat each other "not as well as they, themselves would like to be treated." And while this is not true for "all" people, it does seem to be a more common "theme" these days. The next time you feel the need to "diss" the dude at "stop n' go" because you think he is some minimun wage earning, trailer park living, redneck goof ball, just remember he is a Person just like you. I know I do this, and we are all guilty of this.

    I know I have issues with trying to change the world or human nature, and I should just get over it and realize some people are just a-holes (like the ones that stole your bike)

    Why do I want new trails? hum, let me see . . . oh here we go Complacency, the word for the day is complacency, or lack thereof.

    Do I understand the difficulty involved with getting trails built? I'm trying my best, and asking questions to find out as much information as I can.

    Do I think it "might not be worth the effort?" (your words) No. No, and NO

    is it that the biking community in other states are "better organized" or "more organized," what allows them to get new areas designated and new trails built in a "more reasonable timeframe"

    I don't see much "new" or "improvement upon" the trails in the Metro area, even though the population and useage is increasing and I see great potiental for some of our "urban" park systems.

    I don't think we, as the local biking community can afford to take the same tact as ADOT takes and wait till the freeways are over crowded and over utilized before planning for the future.

    If someone steps back and says "let's plan a better trail system for the Phoenix Mt. preserve" better trails for the mt. bikers, better trails for the horses, better trails for the hikers, better trails to preserve the desert landscape, better signage, access, parking, in general I think things could be better.

    I'm willing to step-up and help in lots of ways besides just digging a ditch. So, if you need help with your project, what's holding it up? and how can I help? who is helping you? where can my skill set be best utilized? Let me know, I'm willing to make free time to make things happen. So PM me and we can talk about your project.

    We should be rallying the troops as it were and supporting OUR biking community.

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    Hmmmm....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    The rest of your message aside, this strikes me as almost exactly the opposite of my own experience on this board and the Net in general. You, for example, have this whiny persona on this board but I'm sure you're a stand-up guy in person.
    I take it you guys have never met, huh?

  31. #31
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    In many ways I agree with you

    and with others I disagree. And no, I'm not trying to single anyone out.

    There are no Absolutes, that is to say that of course it's not everyone/everything/everytime.

    Sure, yea I think everyone should drop everything to help ME! (major sarcasim)

    how about this:

    If your commitments are mt. bike related and I can help, let me know, I'll do what I can. (just PM me and we'll talk)

    I understand commitments, in fact I have a few myself. I am posting because I want to get involved and help out. Just tell me where to stand?

  32. #32
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    You know Eric

    it appears to me that you get some sort of thrill out of posting rude comments about me, or just generally diss'en me.

    and actually it serves no purpose, other than to let others know your dislike for me.

    If you have something positive to contribute cool, if you just want to post up to say you think I'm a jerk, piss off.

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    ....

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    it appears to me that you get some sort of thrill out of posting rude comments about me, or just generally diss'en me.

    and actually it serves no purpose, other than to let others know your dislike for me.

    If you have something positive to contribute cool, if you just want to post up to say you think I'm a jerk, piss off.

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    Rita

    don't you think your goals would be better served by a group or club or something? That is to say that if 50 bikers worked with them to get things done, rather than just yourself.

    we need to get organized as a group, I would think that would make getting things done more likely?

    do you agree?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin'in'Zona
    This option gets my vote. The most constructive of evils.

    Now that the trail is cut, it will be used, by people and animals, and thus developed. Period! Especially if Miraval has the pull you mentioned. Dismantling this guys trail will likely engender a competetive edge and motivate him to "win" by becoming even more agressive in his efforts. Use your skills to tweak the thing, make an art piece out of it since it's already there and, again, WILL developed.

    Or commit to completely erasing the thing and installing official-looking sign warning him / them away.


    God no, please! A complaint about bikers is a complaint about ALL bikers! Thant's how agencies see things! You'll be shooting yourself - and all of us - in the foot.
    I guess I did not emphasize that the trail is BADLY LAID OUT AND EROSION PRONE. In this case no trail is better than an illeagally and badly concieved trail.

    Letting it stand unchallenged might send the wrong message to Miraval and any one who thinks its OK to just build trails and stunts on public land. If used the trail will be discovered and used as an exapmple by some other agency of how bad MTB'ers cut an illeagal trail that is highlighted by MTBinduce erosion.

    If the trail cutter gets "competative" hopefully he and Miraval will be putting thier heads in a noose.

    Last nights inspection showed that the trail cutter had not attempted to redefine the trail. I'll be checking it out periodically.

    Louis

  36. #36
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    Building a Trail or a Dirt Jump Park?

    A trail on public land is almost always a multi user affair. What you have in mind is a MTB stunt park which for various reasons is a hard sell on public land, liability being a key factor.

    I think the overall idea of building a dirt jump park is good but it will have to be approached formally and differently than building or modifying a true trail.

    I keep hearing about "freeride parks" which seem to be against the very nature of "freeriding", however a stunt park or a dirt jump park seems more appropriate and will give a growing group of MTB'ers a place to develop their skills and push their envelope rather than riding cutting multiple lines to suit their specific desires on a multi user trail network in which their effort will be seen as problematic and a stain on MTB'ers by non MTB trail users.

    Louis

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    don't you think your goals would be better served by a group or club or something? That is to say that if 50 bikers worked with them to get things done, rather than just yourself.

    we need to get organized as a group, I would think that would make getting things done more likely?

    do you agree?
    a group effort would be nice. as a group, the racers do trail work for series points. otherwise i see no group. as far west as i am i would like to work to get more local trails to ride. AND, estrella trails are in desperate need of work. so, i ride solo and will probably be the sole mtb'er on crews working the estrella trails. anyway, i can infiltrate the ranks of hikers and equestrians in my area and maybe change some ill-conceived notions they have about mtb'ers. i try to be a good ambassador for our sport. if there are others that want to do trail work at estrella it is as easy as sending an email or making a phone call to the park. you can go to the park and fill out volunteer forms, or the park folk will mail the forms to you. it really is easy. the work will probably start in late september when it is cooler.

    Rita

  38. #38
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    Actually, I don't know what I'm talking about

    or I'm sure that is what most people would say.

    I copied this from the IMBA web site:

    As mountain bikers become more skilled and equipment improves, many seek increasingly difficult trails to test their skills. For many folks, difficult means steep routes, but steep trails can create big erosion problems. Anyone can get behind the seat and lock both brakes, taking the trail with them. But to preserve the land and insure future trail access for mountain biking, new trails must be routed gradually across the slope and must generally avoid the fall line. While some mountain bikers will at first consider these contour trails too tame, elements can be included in the design to enhance technical challenge while also ensuring long-term sustainability.

    Some of the "features" they suggest to "enhance" the technical challenges include "rock drops" "choke points" and such.

    some of our local trails suffer from "social" trail building because of poor construction in the initial phase of construction. I would like to see some improvement and maybe even "betterment" of some local trails, as well as building new trails. If we could build "new trail features" to some existing trails that would be cool also.

    With whom should I talk to "get the ball rolling?" That is what I am asking. That and trying to see if I can get any group support for some efforts (which I think would be better served by a group rather than an individual)?

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    some of our local trails suffer from "social" trail building because of poor construction in the initial phase of construction. I would like to see some improvement and maybe even "betterment" of some local trails, as well as building new trails. If we could build "new trail features" to some existing trails that would be cool also.

    With whom should I talk to "get the ball rolling?" That is what I am asking. That and trying to see if I can get any group support for some efforts (which I think would be better served by a group rather than an individual)?
    Seem to me that you should start with the land manager or land owner where you would like to see the improvements or new features. Does that sound reasonable?

    Talk to the IMBA people when they are here in September.

    Watch for trail maintenance sessions.

    If I had names or more info I'd give 'em to you, but I don't.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    With whom should I talk to "get the ball rolling?" That is what I am asking. That and trying to see if I can get any group support for some efforts (which I think would be better served by a group rather than an individual)?
    You're going to hate this answer but I'm giving it anyway, because it's both true and will keep you out of trouble:

    Contact your Arizona IMBA rep. Her name is Sonia Overholser, and can be reached via email at [email protected]. She's well connected, very active statewide, and is keeping tabs on what's going on all over the state. It's her JOB to find jobs for people like you to do.

    One issue you'll run into as you explore this subject more is that there is no good statewide trails advocacy group for mountain bikers. MBAA is heavily focused on racing, and with the exception of Tom Culp's admirable (amazing!) work out at Hawes, they don't really get involved in advocacy. That said, there are active groups in Tucson (SDMB and SAMBA, with CJ and Louis kind of on the fringe of both groups), Flagstaff (Fort Valley), and Pinetop (TRACKS). There have been some minor efforts on the part of small groups like the Saguaro Soul Riders/Cactus Bike in Ahwatukee to build more freeride-y stuff @ SoMo. There is a new big trail building project at the Black Canyon Trail that's starting up. There is no new legit trail building at North Mountain or South Mountain, nor does there need to be any.

    Arizona's mountain biking scene is deeply fractured from a political POV. That said, we still somehow muddle along. Talk to Sonia and let her help you find a focus for your activist energies.

    p.
    Don't be that guy! Read the forum guidelines.

  41. #41
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    From an observer...

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    Insead you got defensive and took it personally as an attack, it's not. It's just another opinion.
    it seemed like a strongly worded opinion to me, not just another opinion. My 2 cents.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    with the exception of Tom Culp's admirable (amazing!) work out at Hawes
    Say, do you have an email address for Tom Culp? I'm interested in pitching in on any trail work in that area.

    TIA,
    k

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    Hawes trail

    Tom's email is [email protected], according to MBAA's Trax. It might be cox.net, since that's what most cox email accounts are.

    Speaking of MBAA, they're holding elections for several board positions this fall, and nominations are open now, including for the trails and land access director. Now is a great time to get involved.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    . . .will keep you out of trouble:
    Holy cow, thank you for that Paul, 'cause without guys like you around I'd run with sissors and dip all the girls ponytails in the ink wells. You sure are a stand-up guy to be looking out for "my best interests" what would I do without you?

    Check you out dude, I'm a big boy now and I can take care of myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    . . . It's her JOB to find jobs for people like you to do.
    Hum, people like me, ah and just kind of people is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    One issue you'll run into as you explore this subject more is that there is no good statewide trails advocacy group for mountain bikers.
    Why is that? I mean with guys like you with all your leadership qualities and efforts to "look out for the interests of others" why don't people follow your shining example and trail behind you like the pieded piper?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    There is a new big trail building project at the Black Canyon Trail that's starting up.
    Is this the project YOU have been working for the last five years, the project that, when I offered my assistance you sent me off to talk with someone else? What's up with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    There is no new legit trail building at North Mountain or South Mountain, nor does there need to be any.
    According to who, you? . . . oh, yea I forgot You are the Overseer . . . or is that Overlord? in the Kingdom of Paul all subjects shall . . . would you believe, missed it by that much. Do you really think mt. biking groups in other cities and states say to themselves, "we have enough trails, we don't need any more, and we don't need to improve on our existing trails." You know as well as I do that it's constant push for "new" and/or "improvements" lest we get booged down in complacancy. Shame on you for even making such a comment. and you call yourself a Mt. biker? and a stand-up guy to boot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    Arizona's mountain biking scene is deeply fractured from a political POV.
    Why do you suppose that is? Do you think it might be narrow-minded, judgmental people that can't take a few minutes out of their busy "me, me, me, lives to come to some sort of agreement and do something that will benefit the common good?, yea you are right, it can't be that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    Talk to Sonia and let her help you find a focus for your activist energies.
    Yea, I think that would be best, keep me from hugging a tree, oh wait how about hugging a cactus, ouch. That might be what you want me to do, but sadly no.

    This is from your original response:

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    Building trails is difficult, time-consuming, and possibly not worth the effort given the energy required to do it.
    Your werds, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    New is nice, but new also requires upkeep. It also introduces populations into areas that maybe don't need to be exposed to the public.
    Yea, 'cause if we don't claim the "open space" for multi-user trails, some developer will snatch it up and build homes or a golf course on it. That will surely keep the public from damaging the land. Dude, most cities struggle with "open space" issues and think about the old cactus cup corse? and all the building up by pinnicle peak what happened to the "new or existing" trails there? Million dollar homes and a freakin' golf course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    I have a massive trail-building project in the works and the very fastest I can expect anything to get done is about five years. FIVE YEARS. That is a long time for anyone to maintain focus while waiting for a project to come to fruition. . . . Mind you this is a major project on a major as-yet-untouched mountain, and I'd frankly rather work WITH USFS and other user groups than go it alone.
    Big project, FIVE YEARS, work with others rather than go it alone . . . hum, strange that when I offered to help you turned me down and sent me on my marry way. Isn't that a perfect example of the "BS" I was whinning about? I'd say it is.

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    ....

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    Holy cow, thank you for that Paul, 'cause without guys like you around I'd run with sissors and dip all the girls ponytails in the ink wells. You sure are a stand-up guy to be looking out for "my best interests" what would I do without you?

    Check you out dude, I'm a big boy now and I can take care of myself.



    Hum, people like me, ah and just kind of people is that?



    Why is that? I mean with guys like you with all your leadership qualities and efforts to "look out for the interests of others" why don't people follow your shining example and trail behind you like the pieded piper?



    Is this the project YOU have been working for the last five years, the project that, when I offered my assistance you sent me off to talk with someone else? What's up with that?



    According to who, you? . . . oh, yea I forgot You are the Overseer . . . or is that Overlord? in the Kingdom of Paul all subjects shall . . . would you believe, missed it by that much. Do you really think mt. biking groups in other cities and states say to themselves, "we have enough trails, we don't need any more, and we don't need to improve on our existing trails." You know as well as I do that it's constant push for "new" and/or "improvements" lest we get booged down in complacancy. Shame on you for even making such a comment. and you call yourself a Mt. biker? and a stand-up guy to boot.



    Why do you suppose that is? Do you think it might be narrow-minded, judgmental people that can't take a few minutes out of their busy "me, me, me, lives to come to some sort of agreement and do something that will benefit the common good?, yea you are right, it can't be that.



    Yea, I think that would be best, keep me from hugging a tree, oh wait how about hugging a cactus, ouch. That might be what you want me to do, but sadly no.

    This is from your original response:



    Your werds, not mine.



    Yea, 'cause if we don't claim the "open space" for multi-user trails, some developer will snatch it up and build homes or a golf course on it. That will surely keep the public from damaging the land. Dude, most cities struggle with "open space" issues and think about the old cactus cup corse? and all the building up by pinnicle peak what happened to the "new or existing" trails there? Million dollar homes and a freakin' golf course.



    Big project, FIVE YEARS, work with others rather than go it alone . . . hum, strange that when I offered to help you turned me down and sent me on my marry way. Isn't that a perfect example of the "BS" I was whinning about? I'd say it is.

    Are you just TRYING to alienate everyone that has take time to post on this thread? Or are you looking to NEVER have another riding partner in AZ?

    Jesus, settle down, Beavis...

    I posted some pics for you on the other thread..enjoy

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    Want to build trails?

    For those of you in the Tucson area we have lots of work to be done. A new section consisting of 25 miles of the Arizona Trail has been laid out. Construction will be started this fall. We are hoping to finish by the end of 2005. Yes, guy's and gal's thats 25 miles of singletrack. The web site for this endevor should be up and running by the middle of next week. I will post again when its up.

    Also for those racer types. As soon as the heavy metals and other assorted waste are cleaned up. We will finally be able to start building a race and fast training course down here. Including a dual slalom course and whatever else we can work into the land. This will be a county park.

    I have to go way back in this thread and back up DJ. Yes, we may but heads when we are designing and doing it, but he knows what he is doing when it comes to trail building.

    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by slugobikes
    For those of you in the Tucson area we have lots of work to be done. A new section consisting of 25 miles of the Arizona Trail has been laid out. Construction will be started this fall. We are hoping to finish by the end of 2005. Yes, guy's and gal's thats 25 miles of singletrack. The web site for this endevor should be up and running by the middle of next week. I will post again when its up.

    Also for those racer types. As soon as the heavy metals and other assorted waste are cleaned up. We will finally be able to start building a race and fast training course down here. Including a dual slalom course and whatever else we can work into the land. This will be a county park.
    I'm in, have tools!


    I have to go way back in this thread and back up DJ. Yes, we may but heads when we are designing and doing it, but he knows what he is doing when it comes to trail building.

    Jon
    DJbiker's post didn't let on he'd been building trails. Maybe I missed it.
    CJ
    WOW Arizona!

  48. #48
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    Good point...

    Quote Originally Posted by slugobikes
    I have to go way back in this thread and back up DJ. Yes, we may but heads when we are designing and doing it, but he knows what he is doing when it comes to trail building.
    Jon
    I'm picturing those trails would like SORT OF downhill, with no technicality whatsoever...kinda like the fire roads at ski resorts...like a gravel road...am I in the ballpark?

    Cause I can't imagine them being any more than that...

  49. #49
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    Here's a thought Eric

    why don't you go pound sand up your a$$.

    I'm thinking maybe you would want to at least give the impression that you age and IQ aren't as small as your endowments.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by slugobikes
    For those of you in the Tucson area we have lots of work to be done. A new section consisting of 25 miles of the Arizona Trail has been laid out. Construction will be started this fall. We are hoping to finish by the end of 2005. Yes, guy's and gal's thats 25 miles of singletrack.

    With rock-gardens, jumps and drops?!!!
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  51. #51
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    Lets try and not make this forum like the old Passion.

    Pleeeeze!

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    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    why don't you go pound sand up your a$$.

    I'm thinking maybe you would want to at least give the impression that you age and IQ aren't as small as your endowments.
    Wow. Maybe you could get a job as a comedian? Or maybe you could start a business just arguing with comedians about how to write jokes..

    And I knew you were watching when I took a leak...what a f*g...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  53. #53
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    Forget your Ritalin?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    Big project, FIVE YEARS, work with others rather than go it alone . . . hum, strange that when I offered to help you turned me down and sent me on my marry way. Isn't that a perfect example of the "BS" I was whinning about? I'd say it is.
    Dude, you are seriously disturbed. Every reply you just wrote to me heads down a completely incorrect tangent.

    Staying out of trouble: There are plenty of freelance trail building crews who are not working with LMs and are fukcing up LM-biker relationships. The contacts I gave you, per your request, are all working through correct channels.

    People like you: People with a fire in their belly to get things done. It was a compliment.

    Leading by example: Do you really want to know why? Because a) I already do plenty for the mountain biking community (you clearly have no idea how involved I am), b) I don't believe we need miles and miles of new singletrack merely for our entertainment (although I wholeheartedly support new trail with a purpose: BCT, AZ Trail, Fort Valley, etc.), and c) I'm self employed and don't have the same freedoms others do with their time. Oh, and caring for a dying wife for six months tends to drain one's energies.

    Black Canyon Trail: This is not the same as my five-year project. But it's definitely a worthy effort. I recommend you work with a project like this to get your feet wet and learn what trail advocacy is really about.

    Talking to Sonia: You asked who to contact, and I gave you an email address. She is the starting point for anyone interested in getting into the trail building scene. What else do you want?

    Fracturing of local mountain biking scene: My theory on this is that the biking scene here reflects the personality of the city: Big, sprawling, lots of little pockets, no central activism (like in Flag or Tucson -- even in Tempe, where you'd think ASU would foment more activism than it does), a big transient population. There are all kinds of reasons why there's no centralized "leadership" for the sport.

    Turning down your help: You're insane. Never happened.

    Get some help. Consider taking an hour before replying next time.

    p.
    Don't be that guy! Read the forum guidelines.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jm.
    With rock-gardens, jumps and drops?!!!
    As techie as possible. Within the guidlines of being the AZ Tail. If you have ridden the AZ Trail North of Gardner Canyon from Melendrez Pass down to Greaterville Road you will have an Idea of what we are doing with the next section.

    Jon

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    Listen! Paul is right....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    Dude, you are seriously disturbed. Every reply you just wrote to me heads down a completely incorrect tangent.

    Get some help. Consider taking an hour before replying next time.

    p.


    Try taking a day off from the chat room flame wars you've started, and maybe get out and ride your bike.

    And the more I think your reply to my last message, something about "pounding sand up my a$$", that's exactly the type of constructive trail building tips I'd expect from you.

    ...

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by slugobikes
    As techie as possible. Within the guidlines of being the AZ Tail. If you have ridden the AZ Trail North of Gardner Canyon from Melendrez Pass down to Greaterville Road you will have an Idea of what we are doing with the next section.

    Jon
    The reason the Rocky Ridge trail (Flag) was denuded of rocks with jackhammers(!!!) last year was because it had to meet (read: 'be lowered to') AZ Trail "standards". Yes, boulders were hacked up and blasted apart by a crew w/ BIG power tools in the name of the AZ Trail, so I would caution against any real hope of any real features on any section of AZ Trail. It will be what it will be, but it will NOT be very featured. Still welcomed though as an addition, eh

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollin'in'Zona
    The reason the Rocky Ridge trail (Flag) was denuded of rocks with jackhammers(!!!) last year was because it had to meet (read: 'be lowered to') AZ Trail "standards". Yes, boulders were hacked up and blasted apart by a crew w/ BIG power tools in the name of the AZ Trail, so I would caution against any real hope of any real features on any section of AZ Trail. It will be what it will be, but it will NOT be very featured. Still welcomed though as an addition, eh
    The problem is that there is no shortage of beginner and intermediate trails...in the country. From a logical standpoint, I don't see what the point of building any new "beginner/santized" type trails is, not to mention that the more and more this happens, the more and more "illegal" trails will spring...
    I know in my heart that Ellsworth bikes are more durable by as much as double. AND they are all lighter...Tony Ellsworth

  58. #58
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    Yes it definetly sucked, what they did to Rocky Ridge. It was by far one of my favorite Flag trails.

    JM you build what the land managers want and/or will let you build. I just got back from a week in Oregon. There is a system in Bend called Phils Trail. They have been allowed to put in an dual slalom'ish course on an old fire road but got shut down when they wanted to put in stunts. It's the same most everwhere. It all comes down to "What are the chances of us getting sued"

    I pushed hard to get a dual slalom couse in the plan for the new park down here in Tucson, even though it's not my thing. It worked. It's in the plan. Would I like to see an extremly technical MTB only trail down here with big stunts drops and rock gardens...of course. I have been pushing that agenda as well. You give a few hundred hours a year dealing with land managers and all the crap that goes into putting a legal trail on the map and get back to me.

  59. #59
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    Yep, I'm insane, yea that's it.

    You know, funny thing about preceptions, most of the time they are wrong.

    All I wanted to do was find out about "Building new trails" and wondered why I read about "freeride" parks and very well organized Trail advocany (damn I suck at this spelling thing) groups in other states, but don't seem to find any here?

    I thought I'd ask a question and see what happened. Here is a shining example of what happened: mud slinging, name calling, off topic answers, people get their feelings hurt, I called names, others called me names, some people even told me to just forget it.

    I got some reasonable information i.e. IMBA links to the trail building book, and email contacts (thanks to you).

    I have: asked land managers (or at least Rand and Crash out at McDowell) about trail building and upkeep.

    I have: contacted MBAA about trail work.

    I have: gone out to a trail with a rake and shovel and a pair of clipers and "fixed" parts of the trail.

    So, it's not like I ain't trying (I'm sure you find me very trying)

    I guess what I see is, as you said (mostly we muddle through).

    Somehow, and for some reason I think with all the strong minds and pro-mtbking folks around here we could put something "a club or group" together that could be organized and make a difference.

    I think you guys have beaten' me down and you may be right, "it's just not worth the effort"

    I guess I'll just slink off with my insane tale between my legs and take up a different sport, like say GOLF, yea, that's it. (sorry only sport I could think of that "eats" up our trails)

    Oh well
    Cheers

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    ....

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    I guess I'll just slink off with my insane tale between my legs and take up a different sport, like say GOLF, yea, that's it. (sorry only sport I could think of that "eats" up our trails)

    Oh well
    Cheers
    Finally, we can all rest now that this is over...
    Last edited by riggse; 08-22-2004 at 05:21 AM.

  61. #61
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    Why would you do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    Somehow, and for some reason I think with all the strong minds and pro-mtbking folks around here we could put something "a club or group" together that could be organized and make a difference.

    I think you guys have beaten' me down and you may be right, "it's just not worth the effort"

    I guess I'll just slink off with my insane tale between my legs and take up a different sport, like say GOLF, yea, that's it. (sorry only sport I could think of that "eats" up our trails)

    Oh well
    Cheers
    Make the contacts, put a plan together and become a MTB leader in the valley. Like you said, some of us are too busy with other aspects of our lives (family or other hobbies) to pour that kind of time and energy into getting something started. I'm interested in doing trail maintenance/building when I have the time, so focus your energy on getting something started and I'm sure that there won't be a shortage of people who will volunteer to help.

    Mike

    p.s. Why don't you sign your name to a post sometime. This is one of the problems with these forums.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    Somehow, and for some reason I think with all the strong minds and pro-mtbking folks around here we could put something "a club or group" together that could be organized and make a difference.
    A difference in what? You seem to think mountain biking "needs" leadership. First off, there's already established advocacy leadership (even if you don't know them, although I've given you the first person to call/contact). Second, IT'S BIKING. Get on your bike. Ride. Want a group ride? Call a couple friends.

    This same issue comes up every single year. Some guy buys a bike and gets into the hobby, and a couple years later wants to "belong" to a "group" with "leadership." Screw belonging. Screw groups. And screw leaders. Sorry, but if you want those things then go to a Buffy chat room or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJBiker
    I guess I'll just slink off with my insane tale between my legs and take up a different sport, like say GOLF, yea, that's it. (sorry only sport I could think of that "eats" up our trails)

    Oh well
    Cheers
    Two questions:

    Is your bike for sale now? What size? I'm always looking to hook up new riders.

    Do you need/want golf lessons? I can set you up with lessons -- I have a couple friends looking for students.

    p.
    Don't be that guy! Read the forum guidelines.

  63. #63
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    I think his bike might be for sale...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    Two questions:

    Is your bike for sale now? What size? I'm always looking to hook up new riders.
    p.
    He's been looking for a new BigHit or Demo 9 for quite some time now, but Specialized didn't produce enough "size Large" to fulfill demand...

    I think his bike's in this thread somewhere, it's black and red if memory serves....I could be wrong though.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...ht=san+andreas

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