Bring Downhill Mountain Biking To Snowbowl!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Bring Downhill Mountain Biking To Snowbowl!

    All mountain bikers please go to this link below. It is a petition for Snowbowl to build a mtb park. All you need to do is enter your name and email. Help us bring mountain biking to snowbowl!
    http://www.petitiononline.com/AZSBDH/petition.html

  2. #2
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    Same thing was posted like 2 months ago.

  3. #3
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    902 sigs. Not sure how many times I signed this?

  4. #4
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    It doesnt hurt to keep it goin. With some luck, something good might come from it.

  5. #5
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  6. #6
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    eh. not so much. seems contrived.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly
    eh. not so much. seems contrived.
    con⋅trived   [kuhn-trahyvd]
    –adjective
    obviously planned or forced; artificial; strained: a contrived story.

    –verb (used with object)
    1. to plan with ingenuity; devise; invent: The author contrived a clever plot.
    2. to bring about or effect by a plan, scheme, or the like; manage: He contrived to gain their votes.
    3. to plot (evil, treachery, etc.).
    –verb (used without object)
    4. to form designs; plan.
    5. to plot.

    To some this may be contrived but to others it would be an asset to mountain biking in AZ. Isn't is a gorgeous day to be riding canals and shooting pics of cigarette butts? If it's anything DH or Freeride you're against it...keep your lameness to yourself please. Thanks.

  8. #8
    sprocket
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    Quote Originally Posted by latedropbob
    con⋅trived   [kuhn-trahyvd]
    –adjective
    obviously planned or forced; artificial; strained: a contrived story.

    –verb (used with object)
    1. to plan with ingenuity; devise; invent: The author contrived a clever plot.
    2. to bring about or effect by a plan, scheme, or the like; manage: He contrived to gain their votes.
    3. to plot (evil, treachery, etc.).
    –verb (used without object)
    4. to form designs; plan.
    5. to plot.

    To some this may be contrived but to others it would be an asset to mountain biking in AZ. Isn't is a gorgeous day to be riding canals and shooting pics of cigarette butts? If it's anything DH or Freeride you're against it...keep your lameness to yourself please. Thanks.
    why are you so angry?

  9. #9
    Shred...it's the new drug
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    not angry...just annoyed at your last three threads. plus mtbr's been boring lately, need to stir it up a bit. nothing personal, just business

  10. #10
    sprocket
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    Quote Originally Posted by latedropbob
    not angry...just annoyed at your last three threads. plus mtbr's been boring lately, need to stir it up a bit. nothing personal, just business
    'prescott riding', 'emptybeer' and 'Ta' got you down?
    shallow, dude, shallow.

  11. #11
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    yesss! i'm number 908. support the sport. vote you dote. one vote can make the difference. a park there for our steeds would be primo
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  12. #12
    Shred...it's the new drug
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    guess you could call me "contrived"...

  13. #13
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    got like one and half pages signed for this at my shop...why hasn't any one come buy and picked them up????? Im pretty sure the same group did the online thing too.

    On a DH/Freeride note Sunrise will be opening FOR SURE and will need lots of LOVE.......

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    Hey Steve-o, keep me posted, I would love to give a hand in trail work over there.

  15. #15
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    I'm in.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokenspokesSteve-o
    got like one and half pages signed for this at my shop...why hasn't any one come buy and picked them up????? Im pretty sure the same group did the online thing too.

    On a DH/Freeride note Sunrise will be opening FOR SURE and will need lots of LOVE.......
    How are the trails at Sunrise? I've never been there but have heard they are usually pretty legit.

  17. #17
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    yea so what's up with the work party and obligitory keg of beer you are buying?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmokenspokesSteve-o
    got like one and half pages signed for this at my shop...why hasn't any one come buy and picked them up????? Im pretty sure the same group did the online thing too.

    On a DH/Freeride note Sunrise will be opening FOR SURE and will need lots of LOVE.......
    Stevo, I dropped these off before I went to new zealand. When I get back, in July, I'll come in and pick up what you have. or you can just take it up to absolute bikes if you guys make it up there.

  19. #19
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    ah yes, the beer....flowing like the swollows of capastrono migrating.....

    I will start a new thread with info on sunrise and trail work..

    lets get this Flag thing nailed down as well, the more places we have to ride the better

    I really dont wana know why your called assgrinder, on the other hand glad to hear from you. I was woundering what the heck to do with these as they dont have any contact info on them... I will send them up with the first crew that I know heading up to flag and drop them off at the shop up there see you soon safe travels.

  20. #20
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    sweet Im in for trail work stevo. Let me know.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you'll crash.- Julie Furtado

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by assgrinder
    Stevo, I dropped these off before I went to new zealand. When I get back, in July, I'll come in and pick up what you have. or you can just take it up to absolute bikes if you guys make it up there.

    Do keep trying to get signatures in the mean time!

    I intend to keep this petition out until the end of summer, since some bike shops don't see much business over the winter.

    Please everyone keep in mind that this petition is no more than it implies at face value. It is a starting place to show that we mtb'ers as a community support this concept. Snowbowl and the USFS are aware that there are folks interested, and that we are proceeding with this petition...we just need to demonstrate numbers.

    Anyone who has worked with the US Forest Service will attest to the glacial pace at which these things proceed, and Snowbowl is still mired in this...(might be heard by the US Supreme Court?)
    http://www.sedona.biz/arizona-snow-bowl-appeal0108.htm

    If anything comes from our petition, it will be at best several years down the road. If nothing comes from it, at least we tried.

    Thanks to all of you for all of your support! We'll do the best that we can!

    Anthony Quintile
    Flagstaff Biking Organization
    [email protected]

  22. #22
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    Look, as a mountain biker and snowboarder that will admit recently transplanted from Durango to Flag, I stand that some places just need to be left be. I would prefer to not see a ski resort there at all and it all be part of the wilderness area.

    On a side note, regardless of my opinion. It will never happen. With the snow making case tied up in federal court and the fact that the resort is surrounded three ways by designated wilderness, it just won't happen. Sorry for being a naysayer, but we have to remember not to love our public lands to death.

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    On a side note, regardless of my opinion. It will never happen. With the snow making case tied up in federal court and the fact that the resort is surrounded three ways by designated wilderness, it just won't happen. Sorry for being a naysayer, but we have to remember not to love our public lands to death.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I'd have to agree with you - too much red tape to deal with. Both Durango and Flag have amazing riding. What brought you out to Flag?

  24. #24
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    Yeah, I'd have to agree with you - too much red tape to deal with. Both Durango and Flag have amazing riding. What brought you out to Flag?[/QUOTE]

    Grad school. Grew up in CO and did my undergrad in Durango. I'm digging Flag so far. Both towns are so similar.

    As for snowbowl and other issues, it's a tough one. There is no hardline answers as to whether say bikes should be allowed in wilderness or not and where to find a balance between recreation and protection. An issue in CO is the proposed Hermosa Creek Wilderness. It would block out a section of the CO trail from bikes that historically has been really popular. But it would protect a huge area from potential future logging and summer homes.

    And tour de fat has now forsaken Durango also!

  25. #25
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    Although getting downhill at snowbowl will be difficult I wouldn't say completely out. Several years ago they did offer lift rides for bikers, hikers and those just wanting to sit and go 'round. I don't think any real trail system was established and the biking portion at least was removed. So it was available before it could be again with enough support shown to make it worth their while $$$.
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  26. #26
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    You guys seem to have an interest so I thought I'd post this link. This organization addresses the issue of mountain bikes in wilderness, or semi-wilderness, areas.

    http://wildernessbicycling.org/index.html

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    Snowbowl is not in designated wilderness, it's a ski area. Plain and simple.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmmorath
    Look, as a mountain biker and snowboarder that will admit recently transplanted from Durango to Flag, I stand that some places just need to be left be. I would prefer to not see a ski resort there at all and it all be part of the wilderness area.

    On a side note, regardless of my opinion. It will never happen. With the snow making case tied up in federal court and the fact that the resort is surrounded three ways by designated wilderness, it just won't happen. Sorry for being a naysayer, but we have to remember not to love our public lands to death.
    I don't think a ski resort that already exists will ever be a wilderness area. The fact that the land has already been logged and developed kind of removes it from potential wilderness designation. Also, I don't think the majority of the "public" (aka Residents) in Arizona would agree with you that we should remove one of our two active ski resorts. "Leaving it be" would be the status quo (an operational ski resort). And expanding operations to include summertime uses for biking within the resort boundaries would be aligned with the purpose of forest service lands: to provide the most use for the greatest number of people.

    I though the federal courts already ruled on the snow making case in favor of the resort. Has that been appealed or something?

    Proper management of public lands (EIS, erosion control plan, BMPs, etc.) will be sufficient to keep us from "loving them to death".

    What is it you are studying in grad school anyways?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    I don't think a ski resort that already exists will ever be a wilderness area. The fact that the land has already been logged and developed kind of removes it from potential wilderness designation. Also, I don't think the majority of the "public" (aka Residents) in Arizona would agree with you that we should remove one of our two active ski resorts. "Leaving it be" would be the status quo (an operational ski resort). And expanding operations to include summertime uses for biking within the resort boundaries would be aligned with the purpose of forest service lands: to provide the most use for the greatest number of people.

    I though the federal courts already ruled on the snow making case in favor of the resort. Has that been appealed or something?

    Proper management of public lands (EIS, erosion control plan, BMPs, etc.) will be sufficient to keep us from "loving them to death".

    What is it you are studying in grad school anyways?
    Proper Management? is that what were calling it now? I completely understand what he means by "loving it to death". I'm not so sure of the Forest Services ability to properly manage anything. Have you read Jim Stilles book "Brand New West, morphing Moab at the speed of greed" check it out, it may stir a lot doubt in our management abilities.

  30. #30
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    # 934. This wuld be great.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona
    Proper Management? is that what were calling it now? I completely understand what he means by "loving it to death". I'm not so sure of the Forest Services ability to properly manage anything. Have you read Jim Stilles book "Brand New West, morphing Moab at the speed of greed" check it out, it may stir a lot doubt in our management abilities.
    I haven't read that one, I'll have to check it out. I agree that the forest circus and other gov't agencies don't always make the right decisions and manage lands properly. I've worked for them before decomissioning old logging roads and surveying streams and culvert crossings, and the system has flaws for sure. My argument is that there are things that can be done to minimize the impact of biking on the forest lands at the ski resort. Established management and trail building practices will help reduce erosion and minimize the impact on wildlife. I just don't see how wanting to ride bikes at Snowbowl in the summertime is loving anything to death, except riding bikes. The fact that there is a ski area there already makes it a pretty good place to localize and focus trailbuilding. There are ski resorts all over the world that have had lift access for bikes for years, so I'm sure there are good and bad examples of management to learn from. Just trying to keep this thread on topic with the intended goal and positive.

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    when?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattyBoyR6
    Although getting downhill at snowbowl will be difficult I wouldn't say completely out. Several years ago they did offer lift rides for bikers, hikers and those just wanting to sit and go 'round. I don't think any real trail system was established and the biking portion at least was removed. So it was available before it could be again with enough support shown to make it worth their while $$$.

    I must haved missed the offering of bikers being loaded up on Chair #1, when did this happen? I've been here almost 23 years and can't recall this service being offered at all. The SnowBowl Management did allow a few of us to load our mt bikes onto the chair back in 89 with their staff in order to explore possible riding options in the ski area on existing service roads and possibly buliding singletrack trails. We rode down Ridge and cut over at Midway then over to Lower Bowl on the 1st trip and down Ridge, Waterfall, and meandered over to the top of Chair 3 on the 2nd run. We advised the SB management team that mt bike trails would be an easy addition to the Summer programs and it would be a potentially lucrative venture ,,,,,,,,they basically laughed at us and that was the end of it for all practical purposes............This was about the same time Mammoth was trying out the mt bike thing, as well as Big Bear,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you all know how that worked out

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    Elrancho I beleive it would have been about 10 years ago I saw it on Snowbowls web page in the summer. I only remember seeing a picture or two. It was obviously short lived if it happened at all.

    With how little snow hits the mountain the summer season is so long, if done right they could have a very good destination. Especialy if they market it as early and late season biking.
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  34. #34
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    Thread resurrection at its best.

    Now that the Arizona Snowbowl has had a successful year of snowmaking and that issue is settled, do you think now is the time that they will pursue mountain biking in the summer?

    I have heard lots of speculation at the LBS's in Phoenix, but I've heard nothing from JR Murray (mountain manager) or any other people I know up there (but to be honest I haven't directly asked).

    With the Bell helmet park in planning at Ft. Tut Hill, it seems like lift accessed trails would make Flagstaff a legitimate mountain biking destination.

    Any info or thoughts?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjs View Post
    Thread resurrection at its best.

    Now that the Arizona Snowbowl has had a successful year of snowmaking and that issue is settled, do you think now is the time that they will pursue mountain biking in the summer?

    I have heard lots of speculation at the LBS's in Phoenix, but I've heard nothing from JR Murray (mountain manager) or any other people I know up there (but to be honest I haven't directly asked).

    With the Bell helmet park in planning at Ft. Tut Hill, it seems like lift accessed trails would make Flagstaff a legitimate mountain biking destination.

    Any info or thoughts?
    It's funny reading this. My attitude has certainly changed since working with FBO and the FS officials here in Flagstaff. It seems that a lot of the people there get it but as far as Snowbowl goes? I don't know. The new marketing guy has expressed interest but JR is hard to read. I know that Gravity Logic has been in contact with them recently so I'm waiting to see where that goes.

  36. #36
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    Taking the giants, like whistler, out of the picture does lift access MTB make money? From year 1 of opening to biking how long does it take to turn a profit for these mountains? And if biking does turn a profit and the turn around is short do the owners like making money? I know I've simplified this but I don't care, it's the internet at 12:30am and this thread and that picture of my daughter and me is from 2009.
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  37. #37
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    It can since they are already open for scenic rides. They also would get a cut from whomever get the rental fleet contract as well as food revenue.
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  38. #38
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    Opening up Big Bear in CA seems to be working for the owners.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattyBoyR6 View Post
    that picture of my daughter and me is from 2009.
    Yes but that pic is timeless!
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  40. #40
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    Pretty unique situation to N. AZ. There is a 250 mile proximety to a population of around 6 million people with a summertime temperature well into the 100s. This plus easy access from interstate 40 and 17 coupled with the abundance of lodging and tourist amenities make it a virtual slam dunk. When the re-aligned lift that replaces Sunset becomes a reality there will be 1500' of perfect terrain served by a new lift. Once and a lifetime for the guys at Snowbowl to have a monopoly on lift access riding in the state of AZ, would prob put sunrise down for the count.
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  41. #41
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    my daughter and JR's daughter are BFFs and in the same ballet class so I will ask my daughter to ask JR's daughter to ask her Dad if SB is planning on DH mtn biking in 2014, or this century. Or, I'll ask him myself. I have before but he says it was the FS that stymied efforts to bring biking to the resort and that they had it removed from the EIS on the improvement package (which of course included snowmaking with reclaimed water).

    The other thing is I believe (I will confirm if I can) that management would like the new chair from Hart Prairie Lodge to Midway installed first. The top of the mtn is extremely steep (it would be difficult to build sustainable trails without serious excavation with heavy equipment) and any terrain above treeline is controversial because of an endangered plant, the San Francisco Peaks groundsel.

    The fact that they allowed folks to use snow bikes this winter and are planning to have their own fleet next year is encouraging.
    Last edited by rockman; 05-22-2014 at 03:47 PM.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    my daughter and JR's daughter are BFFs and in the same ballet class so I will ask my daughter to ask JR's daughter to ask her Dad if SB is planning on DH mtn biking in 2014, or this century. Or, I'll ask him myself UT. I have before but he says it was the FS that stymied efforts to bring biking to the resort and that they had it removed from the EIS on the improvement package (which of course included snowmaking with reclaimed water).

    The other thing is I believe (I will confirm if I can) that management would like the new chair from Hart Prairie Lodge to Midway installed first. The top of the mtn is extremely steep (it would be difficult to build sustainable trails without serious excavation with heavy equipment) and any terrain above treeline is controversial because of an endangered plant, the San Francisco Peaks groundsel.

    The fact that they allowed folks to use snow bikes this winter and are planning to have their own fleet next year is encouraging.
    Be curious to hear how that plays out, be sure to share with the class.
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Be curious to hear how that plays out, be sure to share with the class.
    I had that conversation tonight with the GM and it didn't go too well. Don't expect to see lift-access mtn biking at Snowbowl in the near future or even this decade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I had that conversation tonight with the GM and it didn't go too well. Don't expect to see lift-access mtn biking at Snowbowl in the near future or even this decade.
    That is what I figured.

  45. #45
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    so, so bad. because:

    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Pretty unique situation to N. AZ. There is a 250 mile proximety to a population of around 6 million people with a summertime temperature well into the 100s. This plus easy access from interstate 40 and 17 coupled with the abundance of lodging and tourist amenities make it a virtual slam dunk. When the re-aligned lift that replaces Sunset becomes a reality there will be 1500' of perfect terrain served by a new lift. Once and a lifetime for the guys at Snowbowl to have a monopoly on lift access riding in the state of AZ, would prob put sunrise down for the count.
    phx, tucson, abq, vegas all easy travel within 5 hours... throw in la and make it 7 hours and add 15 million people. outside of denver you have the biggest metro areas with the largest mtn biking demographics in the country (phx & la lv... throw in tucson/the abg for funsies). go ahead and add in the growing (exploding?) popularity of sedona as a true north american mtn bike destination.

    such a ridiculously easy slam dunk... and an even bigger swing and a miss to stick with sports analogies.

    snowbowl will never, ever be a winter destination "resort"... could easily be a top-notch bike park.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy_ending View Post
    so, so bad. because:



    phx, tucson, abq, vegas all easy travel within 5 hours... throw in la and make it 7 hours and add 15 million people. outside of denver you have the biggest metro areas with the largest mtn biking demographics in the country (phx & la lv... throw in tucson/the abg for funsies). go ahead and add in the growing (exploding?) popularity of sedona as a true north american mtn bike destination.

    such a ridiculously easy slam dunk... and an even bigger swing and a miss to stick with sports analogies.

    snowbowl will never, ever be a winter destination "resort"... could easily be a top-notch bike park.
    Snowbowl does not share that same vision. Not one bit. They don't see bikers flocking to SB and making 7 hour drives. Not only that, but I don't know if anyone has noticed but the Flagstaff riding in general is pretty clapped out. The older trails are in a terrible state of disrepair. I would hardly call Flag a summer riding destination. Sure, if you live in Phoenix it's a welcome respite from the heat once or twice a summer. I think they both go hand in hand. A summer bike park with world-class xc and dh trails. FBO is doing what they can but I think a greater presence is needed, both in terms of planning and implementation, as well as fund-raising.

    There's one planned trail day for Little Bear? What is 3 hours going to accomplish?

  47. #47
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    Lets see what happens with the MEDL proposal rm. Maybe we are on the brink of great things, maybe it won't happen....who knows. It would be a shame to not have this whole thing come together but if everything or most of everything that we have proposed actually does work out I think the riding here in Flagstaff will greatly improve. Keep your fingers crossed.

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    That is a bummer to hear about the situation with snowbowl. Today on my ride I too had the thought that Flagstaff trails are indeed lacking. When you go somewhere else with a progressive attitude towards trail building, it becomes very apparent just how behind Flag is.

    I think there is hope with MEDL. The project sure is impressive in design and scope. If things don't go as planned I wonder what will happen with our trails, with more and more use every year. I wonder if locals will use the approach to trail building that sedona builders used to get **** done. I would much rather see everyone playing nice towards a common goal from the get go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuctionGoat View Post
    That is a bummer to hear about the situation with snowbowl. Today on my ride I too had the thought that Flagstaff trails are indeed lacking. When you go somewhere else with a progressive attitude towards trail building, it becomes very apparent just how behind Flag is.

    I think there is hope with MEDL. The project sure is impressive in design and scope. If things don't go as planned I wonder what will happen with our trails, with more and more use every year. I wonder if locals will use the approach to trail building that sedona builders used to get **** done. I would much rather see everyone playing nice towards a common goal from the get go.
    Well that is what we are trying to make happen but if they (the FS) doesn't make it work than you can be assured that someone will. I mean, if the efforts of working with them to make sensible and reasonable changes for Flagstaff trails doesn't work just imagine the attitude some people are going to have towards the local NF agency. I can't say for sure but I would think that some folks would be taking things into their own hands once being let down after all of this.

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    I think the FS policy at this point is to let the ruts turn to berms.

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    Somebody in management must not like the idea of making money.

    Economic Impacts of Mountain Biking Tourism by leelau - Pinkbike

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Somebody in management must not like the idea of making money.

    Economic Impacts of Mountain Biking Tourism by leelau - Pinkbike
    I think they are more worried about the economic impact of yet another lawsuit after years of being in court. Snowbowl management and owners are all about the money. Making money is all about the winter program.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I think they are more worried about the economic impact of yet another lawsuit after years of being in court. Snowbowl management and owners are all about the money. Making money is all about the winter program.
    Yeah, it's not like there's a "Snowbowl Village" with hotels, restaurants, clubs, shops, and everything, to attract people there in the summer. There's frisbee golf, and that's about it.
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    Well then I guess Elden is the only option then. Joe Shannon is just going to have to learn to live with us. Man that guy sucks.

    Also....a heads up on the dh trails right now, word is the sabotage is back. Be careful.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Well then I guess Elden is the only option then. Joe Shannon is just going to have to learn to live with us. Man that guy sucks.

    Also....a heads up on the dh trails right now, word is the sabotage is back. Be careful.
    I fear the Spotted Owl more than Joe, his wife and their collective hatred for DH biking. You can't bend over without backing into an owl pack. Or so they say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yeah, it's not like there's a "Snowbowl Village" with hotels, restaurants, clubs, shops, and everything, to attract people there in the summer. There's frisbee golf, and that's about it.
    no need for a "village"... flagstaff already has the summer destination thing covered in spades outside 4/5 star hotels.

    a restaurant, a bar and a solid bike/gear/rental shop is really all that is needed. 2 of which already exist. they dont need to be "destination" restaurants and bars... just ones that sell decent food and lots of beer and booze for mountain bikers and sky riders.

    if this were to happen at snowbowl, i think most understand it will never be whistler. that is fine. could easily, with lots of hard work, be a top-notch bike park (i think ive said that before in this thread).

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    tree paint

    Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows what these paint symbols mean? Location: Dry Lake Hills, Mt. Elden. I've come across hikers and some other FS types, but no one had an answer. Someone had erroneously thought they were made by "mad bikers". Had to smile at that one.
    Oh, and Rockman, regarding that spotted owl thing. I've been out for about a month now with technology in hand and the only spotted owl I've roused was one in the Little Bear Basin. Nothing in other bike trail places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chalkpaw View Post
    Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows what these paint symbols mean? Location: Dry Lake Hills, Mt. Elden. I've come across hikers and some other FS types, but no one had an answer. Someone had erroneously thought they were made by "mad bikers". Had to smile at that one.
    Oh, and Rockman, regarding that spotted owl thing. I've been out for about a month now with technology in hand and the only spotted owl I've roused was one in the Little Bear Basin. Nothing in other bike trail places.
    Are you sure it's not you? Sure looks like your avatar Besides the orange markings that they are putting on trees (and on the base) for the ones to keep or log, they are also marking with white, which indicates an archeological site of interest. But the blobby stuff I have no idea. Odd.

    As for owls, I think they are mostly nocturnal. So, not surprising none of us has ever seen one. Not in nearly 30 years of biking the Peaks for me. But, similar to Sedona and arch sites, it's all to easy to say NO, you can't have a trail there because there is an owl pack. It might be time to file a FOIA and get the wildlife biologists report on Dry Lake and Elden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I fear the Spotted Owl more than Joe, his wife and their collective hatred for DH biking. You can't bend over without backing into an owl pack. Or so they say.
    The Reserves have checked out as spotted owl free as far as I have heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by happy_ending View Post
    no need for a "village"... flagstaff already has the summer destination thing covered in spades outside 4/5 star hotels.

    a restaurant, a bar and a solid bike/gear/rental shop is really all that is needed. 2 of which already exist. they dont need to be "destination" restaurants and bars... just ones that sell decent food and lots of beer and booze for mountain bikers and sky riders.

    if this were to happen at snowbowl, i think most understand it will never be whistler. that is fine. could easily, with lots of hard work, be a top-notch bike park (i think ive said that before in this thread).
    You totally missed my point. My point was that there's no reason for the SKI RESORT of Snowbowl to have DH mountain biking in the summer, because they are not trying to attract droves of people to a village.

    I've seen this cycle time and time again:

    Popular ski area puts in lodging at base, ski resort gets investment and revenue, ski resort figures that they can do even better with a "village" (N*, Mammoth, etc), ski resort builds village. Ski resort figures they can make money off of lodging and other things in the winter AND summer. Ski resort increases summer activities to help keep attracting people there in the summer season.

    Snowblow has no reason to do this, they have no village, they don't care how many people come to the mountain. It's unlikely they'd make money with DH mountain biking, even with a stead stream of dedicated DHers, as the money and investment to build such a park that would do that would be off the reasonable scale. They are not trying to sell hotel rooms, meals/beers, zip line rides, and whatever else it is they do in the summer at these other places. They could half-a$$ it like Sunrise, but then you'd only see a trickle of people and I doubt the resort would keep it going. It takes support, continual trail building/restoration, equipment, personnel, and so on. I could see such a thing if there was a much bigger resort, resources, a village, etc, but that's not snowbowl now, and it may never be.

    Whistler has a kickass park because they are trying to attract people there to make money in the summer, the resort is the center of the city (economically speaking). Investing there benefits everyone in the area, the resort especially. Snowbowl is not the center of Flagstaff. It's a nice little niche for sure, but not the same thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    You totally missed my point. My point was that there's no reason for the SKI RESORT of Snowbowl to have DH mountain biking in the summer, because they are not trying to attract droves of people to a village.

    I've seen this cycle time and time again:

    Popular ski area puts in lodging at base, ski resort gets investment and revenue, ski resort figures that they can do even better with a "village" (N*, Mammoth, etc), ski resort builds village. Ski resort figures they can make money off of lodging and other things in the winter AND summer. Ski resort increases summer activities to help keep attracting people there in the summer season.

    Snowblow has no reason to do this, they have no village, they don't care how many people come to the mountain. It's unlikely they'd make money with DH mountain biking, even with a stead stream of dedicated DHers, as the money and investment to build such a park that would do that would be off the reasonable scale. They are not trying to sell hotel rooms, meals/beers, zip line rides, and whatever else it is they do in the summer at these other places. They could half-a$$ it like Sunrise, but then you'd only see a trickle of people and I doubt the resort would keep it going. It takes support, continual trail building/restoration, equipment, personnel, and so on. I could see such a thing if there was a much bigger resort, resources, a village, etc, but that's not snowbowl now, and it may never be.

    Whistler has a kickass park because they are trying to attract people there to make money in the summer, the resort is the center of the city (economically speaking). Investing there benefits everyone in the area, the resort especially. Snowbowl is not the center of Flagstaff. It's a nice little niche for sure, but not the same thing.
    This makes a lot of sense.

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    Oh Jayem, you are such a know-it-all sometimes. Give me a break. I'm not buying the "Village" argument. For every ski area with a village there's another without one that has lift access mtn biking. For example, Grand Targhee in Idaho and Big Sky, Montana. And both places are far from major metropolitan areas. Or Pajarito in New Mexico.

    I think happy_ending is spot on. Build it and they will come. Marketing marketing marketing. How many people live in Phoenix? Flagstaff has plenty of amenities and downtown is a much cooler place to hangout than a ski area village. The ski area is 25 minutes from downtown.

    It doesn't just have to be downhill trails. There's lots of folks who would pay to ride a chair to ride an xc trail. Deer Valley for example. Fun for the whole family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Oh Jayem, you are such a know-it-all sometimes. Give me a break. I'm not buying the "Village" argument. For every ski area with a village there's another without one that has lift access mtn biking. For example, Grand Targhee in Idaho and Big Sky, Montana. And both places are far from major metropolitan areas. Or Pajarito in New Mexico.

    I think happy_ending is spot on. Build it and they will come. Marketing marketing marketing. How many people live in Phoenix? Flagstaff has plenty of amenities and downtown is a much cooler place to hangout than a ski area village. The ski area is 25 minutes from downtown.

    It doesn't just have to be downhill trails. There's lots of folks who would pay to ride a chair to ride an xc trail. Deer Valley for example. Fun for the whole family.
    Yeah, I don't think it takes a village but not having a more well rounded package or at least investing in one does. I guess the legal argument makes more sense overall and I'm also getting the impression that the management just doesn't like the idea for what ever reason. It may be a personal opinion among someone in upper management. I do still think they are blowing it in a way but apparently they don't understand.
    Last edited by raisingarizona; 06-11-2014 at 10:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Yeah, I don't think it takes a village but not having a more well rounded package or at least investing in one does. I guess the legal argument makes more sense overall and I'm also getting the impression that the management just doesn't like the idea for what ever reason. It may be a personable opinion among someone in upper management. I do still think they are blowing it a way but apparently they don't understand.
    My impression from talking to the GM is they are open to the idea but don't want to pay for any additional infrastructure or trail construction. They want the FS to take care of the studies and they are worried about potential lawsuits. They don't see it as being a major money-maker and just one piece of the overall summer product they provide. In short, there is little incentive for Snowbowl.

    So, what's it going to take from the community and can we count on the FS to step up to the plate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    My impression from talking to the GM is they are open to the idea but don't want to pay for any additional infrastructure or trail construction. They want the FS to take care of the studies and they are worried about potential lawsuits. They don't see it as being a major money-maker and just one piece of the overall summer product they provide. In short, there is little incentive for Snowbowl.

    So, what's it going to take from the community and can we count on the FS to step up to the plate?
    Could a lease to a separate company with their own insurance work?

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    You totally missed my point. My point was that there's no reason for the SKI RESORT of Snowbowl to have DH mountain biking in the summer, because they are not trying to attract droves of people to a village.

    I've seen this cycle time and time again:

    Popular ski area puts in lodging at base, ski resort gets investment and revenue, ski resort figures that they can do even better with a "village" (N*, Mammoth, etc), ski resort builds village. Ski resort figures they can make money off of lodging and other things in the winter AND summer. Ski resort increases summer activities to help keep attracting people there in the summer season.

    It's unlikely they'd make money with DH mountain biking, even with a stead stream of dedicated DHers, as the money and investment to build such a park that would do that would be off the reasonable scale. They are not trying to sell hotel rooms, meals/beers, zip line rides, and whatever else it is they do in the summer at these other places. They could half-a$$ it like Sunrise, but then you'd only see a trickle of people and I doubt the resort would keep it going. It takes support, continual trail building/restoration, equipment, personnel, and so on. I could see such a thing if there was a much bigger resort, resources, a village, etc, but that's not snowbowl now, and it may never be.

    Whistler has a kickass park because they are trying to attract people there to make money in the summer, the resort is the center of the city (economically speaking). Investing there benefits everyone in the area, the resort especially. Snowbowl is not the center of Flagstaff. It's a nice little niche for sure, but not the same thing.
    jm - not going to argue what your intent was as i am reading it differently than you clearly stated in the 2nd post.

    your quoted post certainly contains some valid points but most dont apply to snowbowl's situation and, more importantly, you are missing the most simple aspect of this, imo. you state:

    "Snowblow has no reason to do this, they have no village, they don't care how many people come to the mountain (in the summer im assuming)."

    actually, they do care if people come to the mountain in the summer... they absolutely do. otherwise, they wouldnt run chair 1 as the "sky ride" nor would they have been renting hart prairie lodge and catering for weddings and other events for the last 15 or so years... i believe they have actually expanded these services to include the rental of agassiz lodge recently. why have they been and why do they continue to provide these services? im guessing to turn a profit.

    they damn sure are in the business of trying to make money.

    a bike park would simply add to that summer revenue. in this case, it isnt reasonable to think it will be a whistler, mammoth or winter park (both american facilities are on usfs leases i might add) but there is 100% legitimate potential to develop a kick-ass bike park. no need for snow... just terrain and a few other facilities i mentioned in my earlier post... and a lift. in this case, a lift that is slated to be relocated for skiing and it just so happens that would tie nicely into the bike park.

    sure, there are both upfront and recurring costs that are required to generate the revenue from a bike park but many of the items required are already in-place, would need relatively inexpensive upgrades and/or are already planned as part of the most recent improvement plan. the chair 3 realignment costs wouldnt be on the bike park but rather the bike park would help pay for the realignment over time... which helps the winter experience. it all can work together to improve the potential visitor experiences in the winter and summer.

    i also disagree with your statement:

    "It's unlikely they'd make money with DH mountain biking, even with a stead stream of dedicated DHers, as the money and investment to build such a park that would do that would be off the reasonable scale."

    i dont think it will be a massive revenue producer but it can easily make money over time... good money, imo. and i think you over-estimate the costs to get it going... which i have already discussed above. the snowmaking infrastructure costs, by comparison, were in the 10-12MM ballpark i believe, and the bike park start-up costs wouldnt sniff that.

    furthermore, snowbowl has a unique situation that would have few regional competitors (bike parks that is... especially with no legit competition in az) and several large metro areas with large biking demographics within a half day's drive. phx, tucson, vegas and abq total 7 million... make it a 7-8 hour drive and throw in another 13 million and another bike happy metro area in la. and then there's that whole grand canyon place that manages to attract some summer visitors and flagstaff tends to do well with summer visitation on its own (being surrounded by cities that are ridiculously hot for 5 months of the year is an added bonus).

    only if that pesky hart prairie master-planned village would materialize.

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    Quote Originally Posted by happy_ending View Post
    jm - not going to argue what your intent was as i am reading it differently than you clearly stated in the 2nd post.

    your quoted post certainly contains some valid points but most dont apply to snowbowl's situation and, more importantly, you are missing the most simple aspect of this, imo. you state:

    "Snowblow has no reason to do this, they have no village, they don't care how many people come to the mountain (in the summer im assuming)."

    actually, they do care if people come to the mountain in the summer... they absolutely do. otherwise, they wouldnt run chair 1 as the "sky ride" nor would they have been renting hart prairie lodge and catering for weddings and other events for the last 15 or so years... i believe they have actually expanded these services to include the rental of agassiz lodge recently. why have they been and why do they continue to provide these services? im guessing to turn a profit.

    they damn sure are in the business of trying to make money.

    a bike park would simply add to that summer revenue. in this case, it isnt reasonable to think it will be a whistler, mammoth or winter park (both american facilities are on usfs leases i might add) but there is 100% legitimate potential to develop a kick-ass bike park. no need for snow... just terrain and a few other facilities i mentioned in my earlier post... and a lift. in this case, a lift that is slated to be relocated for skiing and it just so happens that would tie nicely into the bike park.

    sure, there are both upfront and recurring costs that are required to generate the revenue from a bike park but many of the items required are already in-place, would need relatively inexpensive upgrades and/or are already planned as part of the most recent improvement plan. the chair 3 realignment costs wouldnt be on the bike park but rather the bike park would help pay for the realignment over time... which helps the winter experience. it all can work together to improve the potential visitor experiences in the winter and summer.

    i also disagree with your statement:

    "It's unlikely they'd make money with DH mountain biking, even with a stead stream of dedicated DHers, as the money and investment to build such a park that would do that would be off the reasonable scale."

    i dont think it will be a massive revenue producer but it can easily make money over time... good money, imo. and i think you over-estimate the costs to get it going... which i have already discussed above. the snowmaking infrastructure costs, by comparison, were in the 10-12MM ballpark i believe, and the bike park start-up costs wouldnt sniff that.

    furthermore, snowbowl has a unique situation that would have few regional competitors (bike parks that is... especially with no legit competition in az) and several large metro areas with large biking demographics within a half day's drive. phx, tucson, vegas and abq total 7 million... make it a 7-8 hour drive and throw in another 13 million and another bike happy metro area in la. and then there's that whole grand canyon place that manages to attract some summer visitors and flagstaff tends to do well with summer visitation on its own (being surrounded by cities that are ridiculously hot for 5 months of the year is an added bonus).

    only if that pesky hart prairie master-planned village would materialize.
    Some damn good points here for sure. Thanks happy_ending for your thoughts.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Could a lease to a separate company with their own insurance work?
    this I feel is the best opportunity right here anyone wanna make up an investment company?
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    this I feel is the best opportunity right here anyone wanna make up an investment company?
    The only catch is.......would the initial investment be worth it to a private contractor? It would take quite a bit of $ to get a legit bike park going that would make people want to visit. Would it make enough on just lift tickets and rentals to be profitable or as Jayem mentioned, does it need to be part of an overall package available at the Bowl?

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by insguy 2 View Post
    So my big question isssss how suitable is the Snowbowl terrain for a downhill bike park? Whenever I ride a trail I look at the way the trail is holding up to heavy traffic. If the soil has very little clay content and has a lot of organic content it is going to be harder to develop a more durable trail tread, and therefore will need a lot more frequent maintenance which means higher cost of operation.

    I am thinking of contacting one of the Gravity Logic guys ( Our Very Own Dave Kelly | Gravity Logic Mountain Bike Park Design ) to ask him how important it is to have the park located in an area that has suitable soil for a downhill oriented bike park or does the construction have to be more of a cross country character which means trails with less grade and jumps that would need lots of maintenance on the faces and trannies.

    I have mentioned in previous posts the "maintainable, but not sustainable concept". It is one thing to have a dedicated volunteer group to keep a trail like Wasabe in good shape, I may be wrong again, but I doubt there would be a dedicated volunteer group to keep a CORPORATE downhill park in good shape, so a large well paid trail crew would probably be necessary.
    Think volunteer won't cut it in the world of for profit park endeavors. There is a huge difference between wasabi and a real park trail. However i think a more cost effective move would be to distance from the corporate bike park model that gravity logic employs. There is a real population that dies not like brown sidewalks. Initial 10 miles of trail at angel fire
    Completed for 70 grand. Get the ticket sales going, expand in increments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by insguy 2 View Post
    I always take note to what some MTBR viewers have to say but not sure I get this statement "There is a real population that dies not like brown sidewalks."

    Seems like making the lifts bike worthy would cost a bundle especially when the lifts are not detachable currently. How would that work?
    There is a population of old school riders, my self included that see the influence of some of these trail companies as good and bad. Big bear is the first place that comes to mind. Trails seem to be very groomed, almost to the point of a brown dirt sidewalk. Not sure how this flies up here. That is all
    Last edited by sinatorj; 06-16-2014 at 04:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    There is a population of old school riders, my self included that see the influence of some of these trail companies as good and bad. Big bear is the first place that comes to mind. Trails seem to be very groomed, almost to the point of a brown dirt sidewalk. Not sure how this flies up here. That is all
    Well I like old school myself but the trends are moving things to the more groomed and buffed park trails. It's what people want. Those trails cost $. I don't think you would make squat running a detachable quad for 20 guys every weekend.

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    imo, a mix of both is the way to go. not to mention, as far as eis/nepa regulation and compliance goes (or put more simply, what snowbowl could do as far as trail building goes that the usfs would be okay with) i think it helps move things along if snowbowl didnt push all machine-made, 8'-12' wide trails that are essentially roads... and as mentioned they would require more money to build and snowbowl doesnt seem to have it or want to invest it in a bike park in the first place. having read several other usfs leased ski resorts' improvement plans, the number of trees cut is always clearly noted. i am guessing that less cutting is a compromise that would need to be considered. machine built trails generally = more cutting.

    slamming out a bunch a of a-line or boulder dash (angel fire) type trails might not fly with the usfs. a few of those types of trails mixed with more singletrack-ish type trails seems like a good idea...

    but im just talking out my ass on this... all conjecture at this point.

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    July 4th weekend 2014

    Today is easily the busiest day of the year at summer at Snowbowl. I was there at 9am riding my bike down the AZTrail back to town. perfect conditions, brown pow, monsoon bliss, I was there! Go get some! Have the biggest smile of the weekend!

    Anyway, at the parking lot at snowbowl, NAU forestry was counting bodies going up hiking only Mt. Humphries trail. At 9am they had recorded 109 people. There were another 20 people at Kachina trail, and another hundred at the chair lift waiting patiently to ride up and down, getting no exercise kind of "user experience". When I crossed lower snowbowl road some few minutes after 9:30 there was a long line of cars going up the mountain. There were 6 road bikers doing their thing. So it was busy enough to warrant interest on my part. HMmmm, I wonder what the internet thinks about this.

    So, by my back of the mtb glove computation, there are over a 1000 people today, July 5th at Snowbowl. No special event, no live music yet, or "village" gathering. BUt it sure felt like a village of _____, with no shopping opportunities...

    Maybe next season?


    Want more juicy Flagstaff mountain bike news?

    It involves MEDL trails and such... Another topic soon.

    Happy 4th of July!!
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  75. #75
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    The comment period on MEDL closed on Nov. 30, 2013. I would have thought we should have seen an announcement on the preferred alternative by now.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    The comment period on MEDL closed on Nov. 30, 2013. I would have thought we should have seen an announcement on the preferred alternative by now.
    They are blowing this/us off again! I'm not sure what I am going to say yet.

  77. #77
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    Well, I guess they are distracted by the just released draft EIS for the proposed logging and thinning as part of the voter-approved watershed protection act. The comment period ends August 18. I had thought MEDL was in front of this project and time frame but maybe that is putting the cart before the horse? I don't know enough about the methods but what will hundreds if not thousands of cable logging deployments do to the Dry Lake Hills, trails, and environment?


    Forest Service seeks public comments on Flagstaff Watershed Protection Project; Public Meetings Invitation

    Flagstaff, Ariz. – The Coconino National Forest Flagstaff Ranger District has published the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for the Flagstaff Watershed Protection Project – the project supported by a $10 million bond approved by Flagstaff voters in 2012. This draft analysis is the product of a multi-agency, science-based collaborative effort to examine the feasibility, effectiveness, and impacts of various treatment options for the project area.

    The DEIS is the next major milestone in this groundbreaking, multi-agency effort aimed at reducing the risk of severe fire and flooding in the Dry Lake Hills north of Flagstaff and the Lake Mary Watershed (the City’s water supply) south of town.

    The DEIS describes the wide spectrum of treatment alternatives on Forest Service land. Options range from aggressive treatments (that would include helicopter and/or cable logging, would provide the largest reduction of risk, and result in the biggest visual impacts in the area), to minimal treatments (resulting in the lowest change to the risk of severe fire and fewer impacts to resources like wildlife and scenery).

    All members of the public are urged to provide specific and detailed comments related to the alternatives presented in the analysis. Because the alternatives in the DEIS cover such a wide spectrum, the Forest anticipates the final decision will include a combination of these identified treatment options based on the comments in response to the draft.

    “Unlike other projects, we don’t identify a preferred alternative and the decision could actually be a blend of the alternatives based on the comments we receive, so public input is crucial in shaping the future of this project,” says Erin Phelps, Project Manager for the Forest Service side of the FWPP.
    “The voter-approved bond will help pay for implementation, and we want to continue working closely with the community to achieve our shared goal of protecting our vital watersheds.”

    The 45-day comment period begins today and ends August 18. The DEIS, along with a Reader’s Guide, a Map Packet and other supporting information can be found online at Forest Service. A limited number of hard copies will be available upon request at the Flagstaff Ranger Station on N Hwy 89.


    To provide additional information, answer questions, and collect comments, two public meetings are being held in July.
    • Open House hosted by the Flagstaff Ranger District
    July 17, 2014
    Flagstaff Aquaplex
    5:00 p.m. - 7:30 p.m.
    • Open House hosted by the Greater Flagstaff Forests Partnership
    July 22, 2014
    Flagstaff Aquaplex
    5:00 p.m. - 7:30 p.m.
    Field visits will also be scheduled throughout the summer and fall.

    This DEIS effort is one portion of the larger project. Other treatments on State, City, and Forest Service land outside of this planning area, but within the FWPP footprint, began shortly after the bond passed. The partners continue to make progress on this critical effort.

    For additional information on the Forest Service efforts of the project, the DEIS, or the Comment Period, contact the Flagstaff Ranger District at 928-526-0866.

    For information regarding treatments on state and city land, contact Flagstaff Fire Department Fire Administration at 928-213-2500.

    A wealth of information is also available on the project website at Flagstaff Watershed Protection Project

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Well, I guess they are distracted by the just released draft EIS for the proposed logging and thinning as part of the voter-approved watershed protection act. The comment period ends August 18. I had thought MEDL was in front of this project and time frame but maybe that is putting the cart before the horse? I don't know enough about the methods but what will hundreds if not thousands of cable logging deployments do to the Dry Lake Hills, trails, and environment?


    Forest Service seeks public comments on Flagstaff Watershed Protection Project; Public Meetings Invitation

    Flagstaff, Ariz. – The Coconino National Forest Flagstaff Ranger District has published the Draft Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) for the Flagstaff Watershed Protection Project – the project supported by a $10 million bond approved by Flagstaff voters in 2012. This draft analysis is the product of a multi-agency, science-based collaborative effort to examine the feasibility, effectiveness, and impacts of various treatment options for the project area.

    The DEIS is the next major milestone in this groundbreaking, multi-agency effort aimed at reducing the risk of severe fire and flooding in the Dry Lake Hills north of Flagstaff and the Lake Mary Watershed (the City’s water supply) south of town.

    The DEIS describes the wide spectrum of treatment alternatives on Forest Service land. Options range from aggressive treatments (that would include helicopter and/or cable logging, would provide the largest reduction of risk, and result in the biggest visual impacts in the area), to minimal treatments (resulting in the lowest change to the risk of severe fire and fewer impacts to resources like wildlife and scenery).

    All members of the public are urged to provide specific and detailed comments related to the alternatives presented in the analysis. Because the alternatives in the DEIS cover such a wide spectrum, the Forest anticipates the final decision will include a combination of these identified treatment options based on the comments in response to the draft.

    “Unlike other projects, we don’t identify a preferred alternative and the decision could actually be a blend of the alternatives based on the comments we receive, so public input is crucial in shaping the future of this project,” says Erin Phelps, Project Manager for the Forest Service side of the FWPP.
    “The voter-approved bond will help pay for implementation, and we want to continue working closely with the community to achieve our shared goal of protecting our vital watersheds.”

    The 45-day comment period begins today and ends August 18. The DEIS, along with a Reader’s Guide, a Map Packet and other supporting information can be found online at Forest Service. A limited number of hard copies will be available upon request at the Flagstaff Ranger Station on N Hwy 89.


    To provide additional information, answer questions, and collect comments, two public meetings are being held in July.
    • Open House hosted by the Flagstaff Ranger District
    July 17, 2014
    Flagstaff Aquaplex
    5:00 p.m. - 7:30 p.m.
    • Open House hosted by the Greater Flagstaff Forests Partnership
    July 22, 2014
    Flagstaff Aquaplex
    5:00 p.m. - 7:30 p.m.
    Field visits will also be scheduled throughout the summer and fall.

    This DEIS effort is one portion of the larger project. Other treatments on State, City, and Forest Service land outside of this planning area, but within the FWPP footprint, began shortly after the bond passed. The partners continue to make progress on this critical effort.

    For additional information on the Forest Service efforts of the project, the DEIS, or the Comment Period, contact the Flagstaff Ranger District at 928-526-0866.

    For information regarding treatments on state and city land, contact Flagstaff Fire Department Fire Administration at 928-213-2500.

    A wealth of information is also available on the project website at Flagstaff Watershed Protection Project
    It's in the writing that any non recognized system trails will be closed after these operations. So......we really need to see the alternatives for MEDL and have something agreed on before this whole thing happens or the FS will have a Sedona like trail war on their hands and at that point they can blame themselves. I'm sure not going to tell people to stop any longer.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    It's in the writing that any non recognized system trails will be closed after these operations. So......we really need to see the alternatives for MEDL and have something agreed on before this whole thing happens or the FS will have a Sedona like trail war on their hands and at that point they can blame themselves. I'm sure not going to tell people to stop any longer.
    It's already beginning. The natives are restless.

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    It's already beginning. The natives are restless.
    Well the FS had the chance to make things work. Hopefully it still comes together.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Well the FS had the chance to make things work. Hopefully it still comes together.
    And it just might, hopefully while I'm still able to ride my bike. It wouldn't hurt to keep the pressure on but according to the Project Leader they hope to have a signed decision by October 2015. That should be in their Schedule of Proposed Actions which I can't seem to find detailed anywhere on-line. Anyhow, that means (if things go well) no digging until spring 2016.

    But of more immediate concern is what the Watershed Protection Project is going to do to the trails most of us like to recreate on. It doesn't appear they are that concerned about the existing trail network. All of the proposed roads for cable logging are marked on the alternative maps as well as all of the cable locations, so you can see what would happen pretty well.

    For those interested in writing a comment letter I would suggest arguing for the option that achieves a reasonable result with the least intrusion. Follow the example set by Flagstaff Biking Org. http://www.flagstaffbiking.org/wp-co...BOcomments.pdf

    Lastly, and perhaps the most important point: ALL OF THIS BEGS FOR XC AND DH BIKING AT THE ARIZONA SNOWBOWL. We are about to lose for some extended period of time the main area most of Flagstaff (and those that like to visit) recreate in. What's not to get?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    And it just might, hopefully while I'm still able to ride my bike. It wouldn't hurt to keep the pressure on but according to the Project Leader they hope to have a signed decision by October 2015. That should be in their Schedule of Proposed Actions which I can't seem to find detailed anywhere on-line. Anyhow, that means (if things go well) no digging until spring 2016.

    But of more immediate concern is what the Watershed Protection Project is going to do to the trails most of us like to recreate on. It doesn't appear they are that concerned about the existing trail network. All of the proposed roads for cable logging are marked on the alternative maps as well as all of the cable locations, so you can see what would happen pretty well.

    For those interested in writing a comment letter I would suggest arguing for the option that achieves a reasonable result with the least intrusion. Follow the example set by Flagstaff Biking Org. http://www.flagstaffbiking.org/wp-co...BOcomments.pdf

    Lastly, and perhaps the most important point: ALL OF THIS BEGS FOR XC AND DH BIKING AT THE ARIZONA SNOWBOWL. We are about to lose for some extended period of time the main area most of Flagstaff (and those that like to visit) recreate in. What's not to get?
    I sent yet another e mail to Jason, the marketing director. Not sure how much good it will do. Think maybe sitting down with a group of locals and snow bowl management couldn't hurt. See where this goes.
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  83. #83
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    Bump?
    For the sake of I am F%^KIN bored of riding FT Valley.
    For the love of God, please make this happen...someday soon before I am wheelchair bound.
    Make Flagstaff RAD Again.

  84. #84
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    Classic thread. 10 years now.....

    I totally forgot about this. It's funny to now be working with suctiongoat now and not knowing him back then. Homeboy's got the dig bug. I'm so thankful he came along.

    ****. Snowbowl just can't pull this shit together. We need some flow and jump trails in Flagstaff and the Bowl seems like the best possible location but they haven't figured it out yet. Get the park stuff up there and we can make the hand built gnar on Elden and FV. That would be dope AF. I've got a shovel in hand and ready for hire. Let's do this.

    At least we have the new Heart to look forward to this season. It's gonna be super sick y'all, I promise you that.

  85. #85
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    I just can't seem to figure out why this hasn't happened yet while MCP has been able to build a lift served park in the middle of Texas of all places... Frustrating.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by knutbag View Post
    I just can't seem to figure out why this hasn't happened yet while MCP has been able to build a lift served park in the middle of Texas of all places... Frustrating.
    It hasn't happened because it's not going to be the cash cow for Snowbowl like everyone thinks it is. Would they make money? Probably, but not in comparison to winter operations, weddings,special events, and tourists who will pay $30 to ride the chair in the summer to take pictures. That, and every time they do plan or implement a change a lawsuit is filed by either an environmental group or one of the Tribes.

    They did have the guy from Durango that also was involved with Angel Fire planning trails but he left. There is some sort of plan for the chair 3 area with a bike park but to my knowledge no NEPA studies have been completed and certainly nothing shovel ready. There doesn't seem to be much incentive.

  87. #87
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    how do you even find this old-ass thread? do you hoard maps, cereal box tops and cats too?
    YES to Scottsdale Prop 420
    Our Preserve, Our Taxes, Our Vote

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball View Post
    how do you even find this old-ass thread? do you hoard maps, cereal box tops and cats too?
    I'll never tell... just one of the many things I seem to be obsessed with.

  89. #89
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    The new Master Plan for SB is coming out in the next week with mtn biking included. Finally.

  90. #90
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    Ok, I'm not in the mood for bad jokes. What u got?

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinatorj View Post
    Ok, I'm not in the mood for bad jokes. What u got?
    Nothing really. I talked to the asst. gen. manager and he indicated that mtn biking and a bike park are part of the master plan.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    It hasn't happened because it's not going to be the cash cow for Snowbowl like everyone thinks it is. Would they make money? Probably, but not in comparison to winter operations, weddings,special events, and tourists who will pay $30 to ride the chair in the summer to take pictures. That, and every time they do plan or implement a change a lawsuit is filed by either an environmental group or one of the Tribes.

    They did have the guy from Durango that also was involved with Angel Fire planning trails but he left. There is some sort of plan for the chair 3 area with a bike park but to my knowledge no NEPA studies have been completed and certainly nothing shovel ready. There doesn't seem to be much incentive.
    Interesting parallel: The little ski area in the city here has been approached about building trails and having some gravity stuff. It's only a few hundred feet, but it would tie into some existing networks and there are lots of people in the city that would likely pay to do it, but just not on the same scale as...frisbee golf and weddings. Yep, according to the lessee, that is what brings in the dollars in the summer time. So, we, as SingeTrack Advocates (STA) built new gravity trails AROUND the ski area, they come down on both sides, new climb trails, lots of fun for the community. We had a "ribbon cutting" ceremony a few nights ago, although the trails have been open from last last summer when we finished them.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  93. #93
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    The press release is out but it doesn't say much wrt mtn biking except that it's included in the master plan and details on projects will be released later this summer. https://www.snowbowl.ski/wp-content/...extChapter.pdf

    https://azdailysun.com/news/arizona-...cd830c812.html
    Last edited by rockman; 6 Days Ago at 07:02 AM.

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