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  1. #1
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    brianc the new Extreamist Enviromentalist....thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    Maybe not, but I think it's funny how you condemn people for riding over 5ft of sand next to a trail that could have grass growing on it, when part of your signature encourages people to take a McCloud and pick to miles of untouched desert ecosystem. Looks a bit hypocritical when you argue the extremist environmental view in the high traffic park then advocate cutting and compacting trails in an undisturbed area.
    ok, you opened this can, lets look at the facts.

    I am encuraging people to help build miles of single track on BLM land. these trails cut through some very beautiful desert. these trails are fully approved there consctruction had undergone EIS (environmental impact study) public comment and ultamatly government approval needed to build any trails so that we the public, can utilize our own land.

    So I'm hypocritacal for wanting users (not only MTBers) to stay on the designated trails or solid rock features at SoMo.

    Because of the hard effort and sweat that MTBers have put into BCT trail system, the BLM is even open to the idea of designating areas for agreesive "FR type" trails. that we get to build and deisgn.

    Because of the hard work and sweat of MTBers, the City is open to the idea of developing a "FR type" area at SoMo.

    In both cases, the governing bodies request certain behavior. Specifically at Somo, they asked not to ride lines that expose dirt.

    they are just as upset at hikers the cut new trail. but hikers do not want a new area.
    b

  2. #2
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    I rode BCT on Sunday and it is absolutely the most rulin piece of single track in the state!! BCT is a sign of all that is right with trail building so NOBODY better diss BCT
    DDKS

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    x-post

    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    Wow that is definatly a different brand of logic, than I use. I would love to have that debate with you but we should take it to a different thread.
    Just playin the devil's advocate. I don't condone "off-trail" riding and there's nothing wrong with building new trails. Just wonder if your logic is really based on the idea that there could be grass growing in that little patch or just that everybody says it's wrong to take alternate lines, so it must be wrong for some reason.

  4. #4
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    Right on Lust4boys! For the most part I despise long XC rides but I rode BCT for the first time on Sunday and it kicked goals. That trail is incredibly cool.
    JRA

  5. #5
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    Honestly, the Parks Department at SoMo could alleviate a LOT of hassle with the DH/FR groups by doing 2 things.

    1: Give up the Holbert Pit to build in. Right now its an eye sore that is just becoming more and more eroded every time it rains. By developing a "Skills Park" down there it would not only make the place look better than just a hole in the ground, it would give people a place to jump and huck until their hearts content.

    2: Allow a new downhill only trail to be built to IMBA spec off of the old Dobbin's lookout which is now closed. It would not only take much of the DH bike traffic from other more traveled trails, but also the vehicular traffic associated with the shuttles.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    Honestly, the Parks Department at SoMo could alleviate a LOT of hassle with the DH/FR groups by doing 2 things.

    1: Give up the Holbert Pit to build in. Right now its an eye sore that is just becoming more and more eroded every time it rains. By developing a "Skills Park" down there it would not only make the place look better than just a hole in the ground, it would give people a place to jump and huck until their hearts content.

    2: Allow a new downhill only trail to be built to IMBA spec off of the old Dobbin's lookout which is now closed. It would not only take much of the DH bike traffic from other more traveled trails, but also the vehicular traffic associated with the shuttles.
    Well get to it! Less talk more rock
    DDKS

  7. #7
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostboyz
    Well get to it! Less talk more rock

    I'm down to throw in some muscle and pick up the mcleod as always, it's just the bureaucracy part that we need to deal with and our main liaison with the park just packed up and moved to NorCal for his woman

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    Quote Originally Posted by lostboyz
    I rode BCT on Sunday and it is absolutely the most rulin piece of single track in the state!! BCT is a sign of all that is right with trail building so NOBODY better diss BCT

    I am just not impressed with the BCT from Carefree Hwy to the Boy Scout loop. sorry.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    it's just the bureaucracy part that we need to deal withD
    that is the part that sucks. i'm glad that somebody can get new trail opportunities going somewhere in AZ (BCT), it's just frustrating to see freeride developments at places like somo and NRA get shot down repeatedly. seems like the only way to get things done would be for freeriders to fill the gov't land manager positions, or to continue building and riding under the radar. by nature "freeriding" can't be accomodated on the legal trail systems we have now.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    .....or to continue building and riding under the radar. by nature "freeriding" can't be accomodated on the legal trail systems we have now.
    that is the way to do it alright. under the radar "freeriding" off of the legal trail systems.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    Honestly, the Parks Department at SoMo could alleviate a LOT of hassle with the DH/FR groups by doing 2 things.

    1: Give up the Holbert Pit to build in. Right now its an eye sore that is just becoming more and more eroded every time it rains. By developing a "Skills Park" down there it would not only make the place look better than just a hole in the ground, it would give people a place to jump and huck until their hearts content.

    2: Allow a new downhill only trail to be built to IMBA spec off of the old Dobbin's lookout which is now closed. It would not only take much of the DH bike traffic from other more traveled trails, but also the vehicular traffic associated with the shuttles.
    I agree 110% with all of these statements. My point is that the Parks department asked that we (the MTB community) control oursleves with the off trail riding on the rest of SoMo. They (Parks) will never let us build anything unless we first can show them that we are able to control ourselves.

    This is where the vicous cycle in our (666 and myself starts).

    I hope our discussions can figure out a way to make the Two proposals a reality. but unfortanly the Parks will not give us the prize and then aks us to play nice. we have to Prove to them that we can.
    b

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    Just playin the devil's advocate. I don't condone "off-trail" riding and there's nothing wrong with building new trails. Just wonder if your logic is really based on the idea that there could be grass growing in that little patch or just that everybody says it's wrong to take alternate lines, so it must be wrong for some reason.
    read my reply to 6sixty6. you'll see my motivation is to get us legal places to ride our mountain bikes. The point about the grass is my interpertation with why the Parks departments wants off trail riding to stop.

    Unfortuatly we live in a socity with rules. we all have a right to work within the system to change those rules. People far better at it that me (Mykhell et. al.) have worked hard to improve the standing of MTBer with the city. to the point that they really are willing to concider the options 6sixty6 outlined.

    the catch is that they will not give it to us for nothing.
    b

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    I'm down to throw in some muscle and pick up the mcleod as always, it's just the bureaucracy part that we need to deal with and our main liaison with the park just packed up and moved to NorCal for his woman

    I think there is more that you and the others on this site can do to help. I think you are in a much better position to help with the policing of ourselves.

    One of Michaels great strengths was that he was very much part of both sides of this issue. and knew how to ride that line to get both sides on board to improve MTBing and general access on SoMo.
    b

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly
    I am just not impressed with the BCT from Carefree Hwy to the Boy Scout loop. sorry.
    Pro trail mainence crews are on the way (I think this week) working south from Boy scout or New River to reroute and fix the issues with these sections of trail. hopefully there will be great improvements made this season.
    b

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    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    that is the part that sucks. i'm glad that somebody can get new trail opportunities going somewhere in AZ (BCT), it's just frustrating to see freeride developments at places like somo and NRA get shot down repeatedly. seems like the only way to get things done would be for freeriders to fill the gov't land manager positions, or to continue building and riding under the radar. by nature "freeriding" can't be accomodated on the legal trail systems we have now.
    here's a little group that hopes to improve things.

    http://groups.google.com/group/arizo...on?hl=en&pli=1
    b

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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    Pro trail mainence crews are on the way (I think this week) working south from Boy scout or New River to reroute and fix the issues with these sections of trail. hopefully there will be great improvements made this season.
    I'm happy to hear that there's possibly some rerouting going on there. There's one small climb -when you're heading north- along the doe peak segment that's really rutted out due to run off. Hopefully, they can find a way for it to be more sustainable.

    Tiff

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    I think there is more that you and the others on this site can do to help. I think you are in a much better position to help with the policing of ourselves.

    One of Michaels great strengths was that he was very much part of both sides of this issue. and knew how to ride that line to get both sides on board to improve MTBing and general access on SoMo.

    You are right, most of the DH/FR guys really do need to take it upon themselves to just keep low key for a while in the parks eyes and yes, I can say 95% of the rider's I communicate with on a regular basis are very good at keeping themselves discreet by being courteous to other trail users and not riding off normally marked trails. Just like always, it's the few bad apple's that ruin it for the whole bunch.

    While the park steward program and the mountain bike patrol are both good programs, I don't feel like they have the man power or resources available to do much to change the way things are currently because they fail to get people who don't want to take the time to become certified actively involved.

    I think one of the greatest things the Parks and Rec Department at SoMo could do to get people educated is to schedule a series of trail maintenance days on trails that are actively used by the majority of users (National/Mormon) so they can be shown and see the damage that uneducated use can cause. By letting people take a little pride and ownership in the mountain and its trails, they are less likely to just become and remain "users" who's actions seemingly effect no one.

    Michael did a fantastic job of working with and organizing the trail work weekend up in Globe last spring and the majority of the 24 or so people who turned out were DH/FRers. In one day we managed to repair the majority of the 6 miles of Six Shooter trail as well as add some "features" that everyone wanted. It was a great blend of "give and take".

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    here's a little group that hopes to improve things.
    I joined AGRO when it started up, and I'm all for this type of grassroots movement, but what new developments have come from this group? I get the emails every week and I haven't seen anything come of the discussions except for a couple build days early on at NRA and Globe. And NRA is now on the verge of being dozed. Yares was our foremost voice and a great representative for gravity riders, but I can't help but think part of the reason he moved was frustration at not being able to get any support for better building and riding opportunities around here.

    Yeah we live in a society with rules, but that doesn't mean the rules are always right. The "prove your worthiness by following our rules and we'll throw you a bone" thing is bullsh!t. It's public land, we should have a say in how it is managed. F the system, it's flawed, this country was founded on the principle of rebelling against authority. The majority of the spider trails on South are from hikers over the decades, yet they are blamed on a stereotyped group of bikers who look for slickrock type lines to ride. Where do you draw the line between an acceptable rock line that connects to the trail and an off trail line? Any soil impacted off the main trail? Hell, National and Mormon Loop are >20' wide in some places and and basically a gullied washout. Maybe they should be rerouting those trails and rehabilitating instead of blocking rock lines with obstacles. The city isn't holding out, watching for good behavior in order to reward us, they are dangling a carrot.

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    [QUOTE=flOw dOwn]I joined AGRO when it started up, and I'm all for this type of grassroots movement, but what new developments have come from this group? I get the emails every week and I haven't seen anything come of the discussions except for a couple build days early on at NRA and Globe. And NRA is now on the verge of being dozed. Yares was our foremost voice and a great representative for gravity riders, but I can't help but think part of the reason he moved was frustration at not being able to get any support for better building and riding opportunities around here.

    Yeah we live in a society with rules, but that doesn't mean the rules are always right. The "prove your worthiness by following our rules and we'll throw you a bone" thing is bullsh!t. It's public land, we should have a say in how it is managed. F the system, it's flawed, this country was founded on the principle of rebelling against authority. The majority of the spider trails on South are from hikers over the decades, yet they are blamed on a stereotyped group of bikers who look for slickrock type lines to ride. Where do you draw the line between an acceptable rock line that connects to the trail and an off trail line? Any soil impacted off the main trail? Hell, National and Mormon Loop are >20' wide in some places and and basically a gullied washout. Maybe they should be rerouting those trails and rehabilitating instead of blocking rock lines with obstacles. The city isn't holding out, watching for good behavior in order to reward us, they are dangling a carrot.[/QUOTE


    A rebellion against an authority, in this Country, is done in a democratic fashion. Covertly undermining the work of the many by a few is no way to run a rebellion.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetisurly

    A rebellion against an authority, in this Country, is done in a democratic fashion. Covertly undermining the work of the many by a few is no way to run a rebellion.
    Nope, thats called a coup, and this country probably could use a few.

  21. #21
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    [QUOTE=flOw dOwn]Yares was our foremost voice and a great representative for gravity riders, but I can't help but think part of the reason he moved was frustration at not being able to get any support for better building and riding opportunities around here.[QUOTE=flOw dOwn]

    I concider Michael a friend,and i know for a fact that there is no truth that part of his reason to move was frustration over building and riding opportunities.

    As for the rest of you points, there is an element of truth in them. Yes it's a carrot. but at least they are willing to listen to us and potentially work with us. Compaired to hikers adn horsepackers we are a very infant user group. it sucks but we are turning the tides.

    We have to work within in their system. I was pi$$ed along with others over what happened to 1A in DD area, but I did not show up for that trail work. I'm certain that had MTBer been involved the trail would not have been as much of a sidewalk.

    A real problem I have with how they manage SoMo is that one MUST be a trail steward to take part in any trail maintence days. That really makes it hard to get large numbers of people who want to help out for trail work.

    The MTB user group has a ton of crediablity with the AZ BLM. they see first hand the hard work MTBer put into the BCT and made waht is there a reality. the first year I was involved with it there would be 30-50 mtb workers there for building days. that really gave us a voice. the numbers have dropped off. I'm guility of it myself. but I hope we can get the number back up. adn continue our success.

    the same effort needs to happen at SoMo. the re working of the widow maker could be just that project. Yares is gone. we can' replace him, but by committee we can make progress towards his ultament goals.
    b

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    A real problem I have with how they manage SoMo is that one MUST be a trail steward to take part in any trail maintence days. That really makes it hard to get large numbers of people who want to help out for trail work..

    OK, fine, I'll put my money where my mouth is and sign up for the Steward Program. What is the process involved? Have a link or contact information?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    OK, fine, I'll put my money where my mouth is and sign up for the Steward Program. What is the process involved? Have a link or contact information?

    http://phoenix.gov/PARKS/volunt.html

    there is a link for the PDF application. I was going to get around to joining you and signing up. I think our first project would be to get the Widow Maker re route on the agenda. and then open it up to the MTB community so we cah show in force how much we care for SoMo.

    I believe that we have to go to a half day training. then commit to volenteer 60 hour per year. if we ride and sent a email report of what we say who we talked to, to help eduacate users of SoMo, helped fix a flat, etc. All of our rides count to our commitment.

    trail work of course counts but again we'd have to work on their projects.
    b

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    http://phoenix.gov/PARKS/volunt.html

    there is a link for the PDF application. I was going to get around to joining you and signing up. I think our first project would be to get the Widow Maker re route on the agenda. and then open it up to the MTB community so we cah show in force how much we care for SoMo.

    I believe that we have to go to a half day training. then commit to volenteer 60 hour per year. if we ride and sent a email report of what we say who we talked to, to help eduacate users of SoMo, helped fix a flat, etc. All of our rides count to our commitment.

    trail work of course counts but again we'd have to work on their projects.

    The time commitment is not problem, I am probably out on SoMo between 10-15 hours a week anyways.

    I'll get the application filled out this week and sent in. I'll see if I can't get a few other dedicated folks to do the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    The time commitment is not problem, I am probably out on SoMo between 10-15 hours a week anyways.

    I'll get the application filled out this week and sent in. I'll see if I can't get a few other dedicated folks to do the same.

    sixty, brian - check your PMs. not private info, just dont want to post people's addys on the net. If anyone else is interested in the Steward program, PM me.
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    I'm throwing the horns right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    I joined AGRO when it started up, and I'm all for this type of grassroots movement, but what new developments have come from this group? I get the emails every week and I haven't seen anything come of the discussions except for a couple build days early on at NRA and Globe. And NRA is now on the verge of being dozed.

    Well sorry you don't know the logistics......The FS is at minimal staff during the summer time down here. Before summer hits they go out and pull trail signs and they practically disappear until now. That is the reason nothing has happened with NRA and the FS during the summer months as no one is avail and its off season. Now that they are in season is the reason they showed at the pit and when Ruppguts ran into Debbie. Remember she said they had a crew coming in a few weeks .That was over a month ago besides nothing was set between the FS and us ,just a mutal feeling/aggrement which had no real standing .......NRA has always been on the verge of destruction and has been for 6 years nothing . Regardless of what we do we WILL lose part of whats out there and so be it . Its nothing no one can fight .
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    I concider Michael a friend,and i know for a fact that there is no truth that part of his reason to move was frustration over building and riding opportunities.

    The MTB user group has a ton of crediablity with the AZ BLM. they see first hand the hard work MTBer put into the BCT and made waht is there a reality.

    the same effort needs to happen at SoMo. the re working of the widow maker could be just that project. Yares is gone. we can' replace him, but by committee we can make progress towards his ultament goals.
    I don't know Michael well, only ridden with him a couple times, just speculation. But I've considered moving to other places with more gravity riding opportunity before.

    Sounds like we should start looking for more BLM land to propose trail building projects on. City and National Forest lands have proven to be problematic areas to direct these efforts. Do you know how the ASLD views trail building projects?

    You seem to be a pretty rational and diplomatic person, I nominate you to take up the fight now that Mike's gone. When it comes down to it, we should all do less debating online and more active participation, but everybody has limited time and wants to spend it doing the type of building and riding they like to do. It's a leap of faith to join a stewardship program in the hopes that years down the road we'll have new opportunities for bikes... most people aren't that willing to gamble with their time. The widowmaker reroute would be a step in the right direction, but city sponsored projects like the Holbert Pit and new DH/FR trails would go a long way toward actually getting people involved and on the same page as far as trail management.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    I don't know Michael well, only ridden with him a couple times, just speculation. But I've considered moving to other places with more gravity riding opportunity before.

    Sounds like we should start looking for more BLM land to propose trail building projects on. City and National Forest lands have proven to be problematic areas to direct these efforts. Do you know how the ASLD views trail building projects?

    You seem to be a pretty rational and diplomatic person, I nominate you to take up the fight now that Mike's gone. When it comes down to it, we should all do less debating online and more active participation, but everybody has limited time and wants to spend it doing the type of building and riding they like to do. It's a leap of faith to join a stewardship program in the hopes that years down the road we'll have new opportunities for bikes... most people aren't that willing to gamble with their time. The widowmaker reroute would be a step in the right direction, but city sponsored projects like the Holbert Pit and new DH/FR trails would go a long way toward actually getting people involved and on the same page as far as trail management.

    What is ASLD?

    I would like to be able to help with some of what Michael did, but I can't do it all, nor to I fully have the grasp that he had on all of the issues. I want to help get the widowmaker reroute a reality. that is a tangable start. I want some input from the DH/FR crowd so that it can be done in a way that repair stays. but I don' know how feasable that would be.

    I'll keep asking about the time frame for the BLM FR/DH project. the problem right now is that the right area has yet to be determined. However, the other big hurdle that needs to be recognciled is that a large part of the FR movement is progression. that brings about a strong desire to build build build. That does not go over well with land managers.

    the best we can hope for, at the start, is to get the permission to build as big of features that are sustainable from the onset. and then work on permission to improve/alter later or in an new area. getting an area that they would give cart blanch (while might be the best to curb rouge building) may not be possible at this time.
    b

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by flOw dOwn
    It's a leap of faith to join a stewardship program in the hopes that years down the road we'll have new opportunities for bikes... .
    i think that is valid, and if your goal is the Holbert pit then focus on that one issue via the correct channels. you are still helping the mtb community.

    My motivation for the steward program was that I ride Somo a lot and could be an ambassador just by doing what I normally do and sharing the trails and being nice. SaltyDog posted in another thread how there were McDowell Stewards with anti-bike agendas and that f'ing sucks and you'd think the Rangers there would be savvy enough to sniff those types out and not let them throw their influence around. Not my goal, I really have no goal - I just figure if I am "connected" then I am one of the people who will be involved in conversations and represent some of the needs of the MTBrs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    What is ASLD?

    However, the other big hurdle that needs to be recognciled is that a large part of the FR movement is progression. that brings about a strong desire to build build build. That does not go over well with land managers.

    the best we can hope for, at the start, is to get the permission to build as big of features that are sustainable from the onset. and then work on permission to improve/alter later or in an new area. getting an area that they would give cart blanch (while might be the best to curb rouge building) may not be possible at this time.
    ASLD is Arizona State Land Department. It is the blue sections on a BLM map. There is a lot of it around Phoenix and all over the state. It is generally leased for revenue for schools and state programs, but the majority of it is unused. You need a permit to drive a vehicle on the land, but it is open to the public for recreation. I don't know what their trail building policy is like though.

    I could see the opposition from land managers to continued building and expansion. This is the argument for an area set aside as a bike park where a variety of features could be built to accomodate different skill levels and progression. This type of thing would fit in an area like the Holbert Pit, where 1) there has been previous land disturbance, and 2) there is easy road access to the spot for building and emergency medical services. This is also the argument for trails with "alternate lines"... some for more advanced riders and some for less experienced riders who are learning. Progression is a part of any sport, why not recognize that and allow for new trails and trail spurs to be designed with options and made part of the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    I'm throwing the horns right now.

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    these horns?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Mikey
    these horns?
    Different horns, but I can't ever remember the difference between trumpets and cornets.

    p.

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    Jul 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianc
    Pro trail mainence crews are on the way (I think this week) working south from Boy scout or New River to reroute and fix the issues with these sections of trail. hopefully there will be great improvements made this season.
    Wow, you mean it can be even flatter and less rock infested than it currently is?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mhykhelle's Avatar
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    Jan 2005
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    I'm still here...virtually

    Steward program next training is soon so sign up quick.

    The City wants a PROPOSAL. This will mean we need HilRide, IMBA Trail Solutions or the like to help with the red tape. I wakled the Holbert Skills area with the city and they are interested. It is not Pie In the Sky but it will take time and HUGE Effort.

    NRA, the Ranger called. She wants me to call her. I need the help of the entire community to make the commitment to do what the FS needs as they have new singletrack approved and ready to go. NRA happens to be in the way. I hope to get a proposal together if the FS is open to it (I think they might be if we can show good faith).

    Gotta go now....THANKS for this thread!!!

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