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  1. #1
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    Another Successful Sedona Trail Improvement Project- Hardcore Riders Please Ignore

    I was informed by a reliable source today that the long awaited trail improvement project on the Little Horse trail about 180 yards below Chicken Point has been completed. There is a section of trail that is called the Waterfall. It is a slightly challenging downhill section for Advanced riders and most intermediate riders use to walk it.

    Now, I have been told Justin from the FS went out today with three dedicated volunteer trail improvers and dropped in a office desk sized custom shaped rock into a strategic location on the alignment to give the 70% advanced crowd a better chance of making the climb. This may also give the more advanced intermediate group a chance to ride the section downhill.

    I personally applaud Justin for his dedication to help making the Sedona trail system more user friendly to the world mountain biking community.

    TD

    P.S. I was out with some friends from Alberta, BC and Hood River Oregon riding Special Ed when we came across about 20 hardcore hikers from the Westerners Hiking Club at the Pyramid Saddle. They were out having a great hike on one of our fun user built trails. From the saddle they were going to climb up on top of the Pyramid formation where there are the ruins of an elaborate Indian complex.

    If you are ever riding in that location you might want to check it out. The trail up to the ruins is not rideable so you will have to ditch your bike somewhere on the climb up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    I was informed by a reliable source today that the long awaited trail improvement project on the Little Horse trail about 180 yards below Chicken Point has been completed. There is a section of trail that is called the Waterfall. It is a slightly challenging downhill section for Advanced riders and most intermediate riders use to walk it.

    Now, I have been told Justin from the FS went out today with three dedicated volunteer trail improvers and dropped in a office desk sized custom shaped rock into a strategic location on the alignment to give the 70% advanced crowd a better chance of making the climb. This may also give the more advanced intermediate group a chance to ride the section downhill.

    I personally applaud Justin for his dedication to help making the Sedona trail system more user friendly to the world mountain biking community.
    That's odd. I rode up L. Horse about 3pm today and didn't notice any recently completed improvements. Maybe I was on the wrong alignment. It remains a world class climb.

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    What!?!?! Now why should I ever come back to Sedona to ride? Now that all of the unridable sections are gone I don't see how Sedona is a attractive biking destination. I love walking my bike so PLEASE STOP dumbing down those old school hiking trails! I really LOVE hiking and carrying my bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    That's odd. I rode up L. Horse about 3pm today and didn't notice any recently completed improvements. Maybe I was on the wrong alignment. It remains a world class climb.
    rock:

    I wonder if I got the location wrong? Oh, well I thought that was the location they were talking about. Did you ride all of Little Horse or come in from Lama? Maybe they worked on the lower unrideable uphill section.

    I am sure most will be happy that section is still unrideable uphill . Did you try the secret bypass spot I told you about previously? I know that is rideable sometimes by the extra determined advanced group. The less determined group will dab just before topping out.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    I wonder if I got the location wrong? Oh, well I thought that was the location they were talking about. Did you ride all of Little Horse or come in from Lama? Maybe they worked on the lower unrideable uphill section.

    I am sure most will be happy that section is still unrideable uphill . Did you try the secret bypass spot I told you about previously? I know that is rideable sometimes by the extra determined advanced group. The less determined group will dab just before topping out.

    TD
    Llama to L. Horse to BA to HOH. I looked for your bypass but didn't find it. It's off to the left before the waterfall, no? So, it was HAB for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Llama to L. Horse to BA to HOH. I looked for your bypass but didn't find it. It's off to the left before the waterfall, no? So, it was HAB for me.
    When you are riding up Little Horse (before making a 90 degree right turn to the Waterfall) you continue STRAIGHT to the left of a tree that is about 3 to 4 feet above the Little Horse trail below. At the top of the climb you break right to intersect Little Horse.

    TD
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Another Successful Sedona Trail Improvement Project- Hardcore Riders Please Ignore-waterfall-bypass.jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    When you are riding up Little Horse (before making a 90 degree right turn to the Waterfall) you continue STRAIGHT to the left of a tree that is about 3 to 4 feet above the Little Horse trail below. At the top of the climb you break right to intersect Little Horse.

    TD
    I sniffed around in that area. Does it go up a crack or slot in the slickrock? Otherwise, I didn't see anything resembling a ramp of sorts to get up to the next layer. Anyhoo, I'll look for it the next time. Thanks for the tip

    I suspect the crib work on Hog Heaven won't last long. At least not on the spot pwrtrnr was concerned about. Some of the other sections needed the work. Quite a bit of erosion on that trail from the summer monsoon thunderstorms.

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    It must be the one south of the Llama intersection. A guy on this forum witnessed 2 little girls ride down it, 8 and 10 years old. Wally knows them, I bet they would be the hardcore riders that will not be happy with the improvement. BTW, thanks for the Pyramid Indians ruins tip, I am heading out now to try and find it, sans bike. Scary.

    Brenda

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    I sniffed around in that area. Does it go up a crack or slot in the slickrock? Otherwise, I didn't see anything resembling a ramp of sorts to get up to the next layer. Anyhoo, I'll look for it the next time. Thanks for the tip

    I suspect the crib work on Hog Heaven won't last long. At least not on the spot pwrtrnr was concerned about. Some of the other sections needed the work. Quite a bit of erosion on that trail from the summer monsoon thunderstorms.
    rock:

    A picture is worth a 1,000 words

    I agree with your Hog analysis , but as we have come to find out you and I are at the bottom end of the 30% so what seems like a perfectly wonderful user experience for us is a terrible user experience for someone in the top tier of the 30%.

    Unfortunately, unlike the back side of Highline, Hog Heaven was built as a climbing trail not a technical downhill trail, so it will constantly have improvement projects going on to keep it climbable.

    I would suggest that those riders who don't like the improvements in the downhill direction ride Hog Heaven uphill. I guarantee it will be a more challenging experience .

    TD
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Another Successful Sedona Trail Improvement Project- Hardcore Riders Please Ignore-waterfal-bypass.jpg  


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    The repaired section was supposed to be the small waterfall (6ish feet)between Llama and BRP.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
    - Julie Furtado

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    It was here: 34.824292,-111.766389 - Google Maps (below Llama)

    Before:



    After:



    Boulder:


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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    It was here: 34.824292,-111.766389 - Google Maps (below Llama)

    Before:



    After:



    Boulder:

    Justin:

    That is Awesome !!!!!! Whenever I would get close to that previously unrideable section, I was overwhelmed with a feeling of depression. NOW I have HOPE that maybe I have a chance to make that section. Unfortunately, there will be many 5 percenters that are going to quit coming to Sedona because of that fix.

    Don't let it get you down, I am going to support those efforts to the bitter end.

    Thanks for making a dream come true.

    TD

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    Certainly you're not finished. When does the black top and center line get installed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Certainly you're not finished. When does the black top and center line get installed.
    Why u gotta b a hater??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Certainly you're not finished. When does the black top and center line get installed.
    Worry not, it's still a world class climb to get to the improvement. If you've got anything left at that point let us know if you can get up it won't you?

    Nice work Justin!

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    Went to Sedona for the first time about 3 weeks ago and rode DOWN that trail. Going down, it looks harder than it is. If you can *mentally* just let the bike run, it's no big deal at all. Going UP would be another issue altogether. I wouldn't even bother trying. I don't ride with anybody that could do that.

    With the new fix, it's hard to tell from the photo if going UP is now doable for the masses. Defintely makes going down easier for most folks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    Worry not, it's still a world class climb to get to the improvement. If you've got anything left at that point let us know if you can get up it won't you?

    Nice work Justin!
    Not worried about getting up to it. There are many things I can't climb. Just saying it looks like a freeway now. I liked the chunkiness it had before. What's all the hate for those that like things not so smoothed out. Is there a ban on voicing an opinion?
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    I'll give it a go this weekend. I don't think ever riding up it was feasible by any human. Those poor little girls, tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Not worried about getting up to it. There are many things I can't climb. Just saying it looks like a freeway now. I liked the chunkiness it had before. What's all the hate for those that like things not so smoothed out. Is there a ban on voicing an opinion?
    64:

    I don't think the majority of advanced mountain bikers hate the minority of advanced riders. We just want to have more advanced riders to have a better user experience. It is pretty easy to understand, if you think about it rationally.

    We are getting some pretty heavy lightening right now and it looks like we will get some significant rain to make those new improvents from last weekend and yesterday nice to check out.

    If it rains alot tonight the best place to ride when it stops will be in the West Sedona Red Rock Loop Road Area. There is a lot of rock in the area and the wet trail surface doesn't stick to your wheel like other areas. Highline and Slim Shady also recover pretty quickly.
    Last edited by traildoc; 11-04-2011 at 08:55 PM.

  20. #20
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    TD seems like anytime someone disagrees with you or your group. The bashing starts and how well can they ride crap comes up. I'm not the best rider in town. Never claimed to be. I was for the most part being sarcastic about the paved road comment. But of course johnny rockbottom! Has to toss in the crap about can I make it even with the changes. That's all they are is changes. As there will always be someone that prefers it more or less challenging. I never even ridden in Sedona. But to be honest. All these posting on changes have soured my desire to ride there. I'm just 1 in a million so I'm sure you will have more than enough business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    TD seems like anytime someone disagrees with you or your group. The bashing starts and how well can they ride crap comes up. I'm not the best rider in town. Never claimed to be. I was for the most part being sarcastic about the paved road comment. But of course johnny rockbottom! Has to toss in the crap about can I make it even with the changes. That's all they are is changes. As there will always be someone that prefers it more or less challenging. I never even ridden in Sedona. But to be honest. All these posting on changes have soured my desire to ride there. I'm just 1 in a million so I'm sure you will have more than enough business.
    It is rather funny how different views can be on certain trails as well as riding ability. I don't think a truly advanced rider would've minded the trail they way it was. I think it's about having limits pushed. Some people like to ride trails that make them struggle in places because they know they can clean it but didn't for whatever reason. Other people think a trail is poo if they can't ride the entire thing without dabbing in either direction. Some people love trails because of the climb, and would rather see it be possible to climb rather than have enjoyable flow on the downhill.

    Either route, don't let these posts deter you from biking here; Sedona is an awesome place to bike.
    The secret to mountain biking is pretty simple. The slower you go the more likely it is you’ll crash.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woahey View Post
    I think it's about having limits pushed. Some people like to ride trails that make them struggle in places because they know they can clean it but didn't for whatever reason.
    We have a set of rock steps we hit almost every time out. I have cleaned 2 out of the 3. But not every time as you mention. Plenty of rocks around to build a ramp to make it more user friendly. But we go to the section to work on our skills. Say heck yes when we do clean it. When I made my comment! I was thinking more in the lines of coming down it. It looked ridable to me. Now it looks like a bike path in a park. Going up, still looks to be a challenge.

    I've got buddies that know the area. I'm sure there is more than enough stuff for me to walk.
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    The OP's intent of his original post was to give credit to the FS for making Sedona a better place to ride uphill for the majority of riders who visit here every year. In years past the FS didn't take mountain biking into consideration when doing what they considered to be trail improvements. They now have a better understanding and are providing the advanced uphill rider a better user experience.

    I don't know how else to promote the great riding we have here due to the resent efforts of the FS. If some riders can't see the Forest from the Trees and don't like some lively discussion that's fine.

    I spent a couple hours this afternoon at the SPA in a large jacuzzi with some rich Iowa corn farmers visiting Sedona that tried to convince me ethanol is not a taxpayer rip-off. They were convinced they were saving the world from the BIG corporate oil companies. They weren't comfortable listening to someone with a different POV that is for sure.

    I don't expect every advanced rider to enjoy the better uphill experience and I don't mind them not liking it. Everyone has the choice to ride were ever they want to. If their friends, girlfriends, boy friends and spouses enjoy riding here and they have to go elsewhere it's OK with some of us.

    When you point out to them there are other trails a short distance from Little Horse like White Line, Sick Boy and Rock and Roll they just can't seem to want to try those lines for some unknown reason, what's that about. Those are three great skill testers for the top 5 percent.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    The OP's intent of his original post was to give credit to the FS for making Sedona a better place to ride uphill for the majority of riders who visit here every year. In years past the FS didn't take mountain biking into consideration when doing what they considered to be trail improvements. They now have a better understanding and are providing the advanced uphill rider a better user experience.

    I don't know how else to promote the great riding we have here due to the resent efforts of the FS. If some riders can't see the Forest from the Trees and don't like some lively discussion that's fine.

    I spent a couple hours this afternoon at the SPA in a large jacuzzi with some rich Iowa corn farmers visiting Sedona that tried to convince me ethanol is not a taxpayer rip-off. They were convinced they were saving the world from the BIG corporate oil companies. They weren't comfortable listening to someone with a different POV that is for sure.

    I don't expect every advanced rider to enjoy the better uphill experience and I don't mind them not liking it. Everyone has the choice to ride were ever they want to. If their friends, girlfriends and spouses enjoy riding here and they have to go elsewhere it's OK with some of us.

    When you point out to them there are other trails a short distance from Little Horse like White Line, Sick Boy and Rock and Roll they just can't seem to want to try those lines for some unknown reason, what's that about. Those are three great skill testers for the top 5 percent.

    TD
    What and where is Rock and Roll TD?

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    At this spot there are three lines...

    Left: Very Steep, Fun Downhill
    Right: Chunky Steps with Tight Turn
    Middle: Continuous Tread at Moderate Slope

    Still lots of options for each riding style and difficulty.
    Professional Trail Builder and Guvmint Employee

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    Quote Originally Posted by justinwp View Post
    At this spot there are three lines...

    Left: Very Steep, Fun Downhill
    Right: Chunky Steps with Tight Turn
    Middle: Continuous Tread at Moderate Slope

    Still lots of options for each riding style and difficulty.
    Justin:

    That is down right awesome. The top 2% can ride down the chunky steps with the tight turn, the next 28% can ride down the VERY STEEP DOWNHILL and the rest of the 70% can ride down the Continuous Tread at Moderate Slope. What a country!!!!!

    Is this the kind of trail improvements we can expect on every future project or were you just able to fill ALL user group needs on this location due to unique terrain?

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post

    When you point out to them there are other trails a short distance from Little Horse like White Line, Sick Boy and Rock and Roll they just can't seem to want to try those lines for some unknown reason, what's that about. Those are three great skill testers for the top 5 percent.

    TD
    5%?? You are far too generous!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    What and where is Rock and Roll TD?
    If I tell you you will have to kill me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    rock:

    A picture is worth a 1,000 words

    TD
    Awesome Etch a Sketch!!! Maybe only worth 2 or 3 words though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronski View Post
    5%?? You are far too generous!!
    I get carried away sometimes. I don't want to leave out some riders who think they have the skill level to ride those lines. Josh and Simon Ride the White Line.mp4 - YouTube

    TD

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    Riding down that in it's original state was moderate at best. Like Brenda stated, I watched an 8 and 10 year old go down it with no problem. I've gone down it with no thought. Up was a challenge, yes, but it inspired you to keep trying. By the way the pics look it now requires little effort to go up and has destroyed the more challenging down. And I don't know what you all are talking about as far as difficulty getting to it. Seriously? It's a sidewalk up to that point.

    The way things are going in Sedona I think we will all be riding pink jeep mountain bikes in the near future. And if what I hear is true we should all say (in the best Arnold voice) that trail "is so big I can drive my Hummer through it" on High Line. Good job Sedona, let's make all the mountain biking for the folks in the lower 30 % of the bell curve.

    Every time a trail gets destroyed so that the touron Texans can ride up it you destroy the downhill, as well as negate any up challenge for any moderate to advanced biker. I think there are more than enough trails geared to below average to touron mountain bikers in the Sedona trail system. I love the fact that I can't make it up every obstacle on every trail and I think there are a lot of people that feel the way I do. I don't mind HAB over sections. I still try! Hell, sometimes I succeed. Like today I did two up sections of a trail that I have never done and I have been riding the trail for over a year. If those sections were dumbed down I would have never had the chance to succeed on a challenge. I am a better rider now and my skills have improved because of the challenge. You are marketing to the masses, the tourons, the mom and pop on vacation with the kids, not to mountain bikers. If the pace goes on like it is now you will never make Sedona a mountain biker destination. It will be a joke, laughed at by the biking community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by climnron View Post
    Riding down that in it's original state was moderate at best. Like Brenda stated, I watched an 8 and 10 year old go down it with no problem. I've gone down it with no thought. Up was a challenge, yes, but it inspired you to keep trying. By the way the pics look it now requires little effort to go up and has destroyed the more challenging down. And I don't know what you all are talking about as far as difficulty getting to it. Seriously? It's a sidewalk up to that point.

    The way things are going in Sedona I think we will all be riding pink jeep mountain bikes in the near future. And if what I hear is true we should all say (in the best Arnold voice) that trail "is so big I can drive my Hummer through it" on High Line. Good job Sedona, let's make all the mountain biking for the folks in the lower 30 % of the bell curve.

    Every time a trail gets destroyed so that the touron Texans can ride up it you destroy the downhill, as well as negate any up challenge for any moderate to advanced biker. I think there are more than enough trails geared to below average to touron mountain bikers in the Sedona trail system. I love the fact that I can't make it up every obstacle on every trail and I think there are a lot of people that feel the way I do. I don't mind HAB over sections. I still try! Hell, sometimes I succeed. Like today I did two up sections of a trail that I have never done and I have been riding the trail for over a year. If those sections were dumbed down I would have never had the chance to succeed on a challenge. I am a better rider now and my skills have improved because of the challenge. You are marketing to the masses, the tourons, the mom and pop on vacation with the kids, not to mountain bikers. If the pace goes on like it is now you will never make Sedona a mountain biker destination. It will be a joke, laughed at by the biking community.
    I think you're off target but therein, lies the challenge. What needs dumbing down, regular maintenance, left alone, or major reroute? This little project occurred on one of the most heavily used system trails in the Red Rock District. It's an eroded fall line mess. The challenges you want can be found in plenty of other places and mostly on user-built trails that are more recent in origin and are more sustainable. I consider myself a decent rider and in 25 yrs of riding in Sedona I've never cleaned that section in an uphill direction. As Justin stated above, there's still plenty of challenge to the left or right of the improvement. Frankly, I'm surprised he went to the effort and didn't just do a major reroute and put the whole section out to pasture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by climnron View Post
    Riding down that in it's original state was moderate at best. Like Brenda stated, I watched an 8 and 10 year old go down it with no problem. I've gone down it with no thought. Up was a challenge, yes, but it inspired you to keep trying. By the way the pics look it now requires little effort to go up and has destroyed the more challenging down. And I don't know what you all are talking about as far as difficulty getting to it. Seriously? It's a sidewalk up to that point.

    The way things are going in Sedona I think we will all be riding pink jeep mountain bikes in the near future. And if what I hear is true we should all say (in the best Arnold voice) that trail "is so big I can drive my Hummer through it" on High Line. Good job Sedona, let's make all the mountain biking for the folks in the lower 30 % of the bell curve.

    Every time a trail gets destroyed so that the touron Texans can ride up it you destroy the downhill, as well as negate any up challenge for any moderate to advanced biker. I think there are more than enough trails geared to below average to touron mountain bikers in the Sedona trail system. I love the fact that I can't make it up every obstacle on every trail and I think there are a lot of people that feel the way I do. I don't mind HAB over sections. I still try! Hell, sometimes I succeed. Like today I did two up sections of a trail that I have never done and I have been riding the trail for over a year. If those sections were dumbed down I would have never had the chance to succeed on a challenge. I am a better rider now and my skills have improved because of the challenge. You are marketing to the masses, the tourons, the mom and pop on vacation with the kids, not to mountain bikers. If the pace goes on like it is now you will never make Sedona a mountain biker destination. It will be a joke, laughed at by the biking community.
    And what will it look like in 10 years do you think? It seems like people can only look ahead one or two months at best, without realizing what a trail really needs over the lifetime of it's existance. Munds is another good example, some parts of that trail are/were just too worn out, challenging is one thing, but just loose fall-line erosion is another, and with some improvements, it will erode and decay into a more challenging state over time. Most of the "complainers" do not realize the actual challenging trails that exist in Sedona, and the "improvements" are being made to the mainstream moderate trails. In other words, "you don't know what the hell you are talking about". This is kind of like complaining about the Schultz Creek re-routes, which have been done due to erosion and damage. Sure, maybe it reduced the challenge slightly, but that's what the other CHALLENGING trails are for. Some of these sections can not be left to be destroyed into an incomprehensible mess. Start riding the challenging trails (damifino, etc) and stop complaining.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    And what will it look like in 10 years do you think? It seems like people can only look ahead one or two months at best, without realizing what a trail really needs over the lifetime of it's existance. Munds is another good example, some parts of that trail are/were just too worn out, challenging is one thing, but just loose fall-line erosion is another, and with some improvements, it will erode and decay into a more challenging state over time. Most of the "complainers" do not realize the actual challenging trails that exist in Sedona, and the "improvements" are being made to the mainstream moderate trails. In other words, "you don't know what the hell you are talking about". This is kind of like complaining about the Schultz Creek re-routes, which have been done due to erosion and damage. Sure, maybe it reduced the challenge slightly, but that's what the other CHALLENGING trails are for. Some of these sections can not be left to be destroyed into an incomprehensible mess. Start riding the challenging trails (damifino, etc) and stop complaining.
    I highly approve of this post.

    TD

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    I think for system trails (Schultz, Little Horse, etc) It's not a huge deal. There's plenty of chunk in Sedona and Flag for people that want chunk, but system trails like Schultz and Little Horse aren't designed for that. It's worth mentioning that it looks like this improvement only added a line where there previously wasn't one. I've seen people ride down that feature, but never straight down the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cm374 View Post
    I think for system trails (Schultz, Little Horse, etc) It's not a huge deal. There's plenty of chunk in Sedona and Flag for people that want chunk, but system trails like Schultz and Little Horse aren't designed for that. It's worth mentioning that it looks like this improvement only added a line where there previously wasn't one. I've seen people ride down that feature, but never straight down the middle.
    cm:

    Thanks for your input. As you know the Sedona local crowd is known for shuttling downhill to be able to ride the world class Sedona uphill sections. I use to think this was stupid, but in the long run it improved my uphill bike skills.

    TD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Certainly you're not finished. When does the black top and center line get installed.

    Maybe I can put this is into words you can understand...


    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    It's not your place to judge what he has plannned. Step off and let him live his life!

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    Great work, Justin

    Justin, thank you for your hard work. I was riding down that section four years ago thought I had cleaned it, when I compressed my front shock upon landing off the last ledge and found myself riding a nose wheelie for 20 feet. I still thought I'd make it back onto two wheels but the rear of my bike swung down and pinched my right leg between it and the front fork, causing a sharp pain. It just happened to pinch a nerve that left my leg numb for 18 straight days.

    The worst part was trying to ride Llama back to Bike and Bean with one leg. I lost speed on a short climb and simply tipped over at very slow speed. I landed next to the trail, laying with my face on it's side. I looked and saw a sharp pointed 1" diameter tree stump cut about 6" from it's base. If I had fallen 3" further forward, it would have punctured my face through my right cheek, or maybe gone straight into my right eye.

    It's amazing how good trail maintenance can prevent serious injuries, even though you may be unaware of it.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    Maybe I can put this is into words you can understand...
    Hey clueless. Explain how changing trails to fit a personal and/or business plan. Is the same as a continuous rant about ones safety in a journey of a life time!

    As for this section. If the FS felt it was needed! Great, glad it worked out for them! I still say it looks tamed down. If that hurts your sally feelings. Not much one can do about that now is there.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  40. #40
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    Observation: It seems like Sedona trail maintenance lately has become more about the personal dislike (by a few) for the ones doing it rather than the needed work that is getting done. AND an excuse for some to tell us how "good" they are. Living in Prescott, I ride Sedona from time to time. Mark me down as grateful for the maintenance from the locals and the FS.

    Dash
    Last edited by DashRiprock™®©; 11-06-2011 at 10:25 AM. Reason: clarification
    Clearer-er of Prescott trails. Downhill downfall in your way? PM me. Have ax, will travel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DashRiprock™®© View Post
    Observation: It seems like Sedona trail maintenance lately has become more about the personal dislike for the ones doing it rather than the needed work that is getting done. AND an excuse for some to tell us how "good" they are. Living in Prescott, I ride Sedona from time to time. Mark me down as grateful for the maintenance from the locals and the FS.

    Dash
    Dash:

    Thanks for your support, I will let Justin know you appreciate what he is trying to accomplish. There is a rumor going around that the FS funding for trail maintenance in Sedona is under financial pressure due to recent budget cutbacks. Hopefully Justin has been around long enough he won't be affected.

    TD

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    I thought motchick was making a funny...I don't think many 8 & 10 year olds are riding that section very often. If so, their last name must be Tomac or Overend.

    As far as trail "improvements" it really is a fine line. On THIS particular one, it looks like they left the original chunky, sketchy part off to the right side (on the photo) and the "improvement" will help less skilled people both up and down. However, "improvements" can also totally ruin any challenge at all at times. At the local area where I ride, somebody (we *think* the equestrian folks) destroyed a do-able rocky section and made it where 100% of riders can make it with no problem/effort.

    I'll tell you where I'd liek to see some work in Sedona and that would be on Templeton. Going UP on those switchbacks might be fun if it was possible for any normal person. I've heard that it's possible but I've never seen it done and don't know anybody who can. Even if the step-ups were made manageable, you would still need killer skills and energy levels to clear that section.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycle64 View Post
    Hey clueless. Explain how changing trails to fit a personal and/or business plan. Is the same as a continuous rant about ones safety in a journey of a life time!

    As for this section. If the FS felt it was needed! Great, glad it worked out for them! I still say it looks tamed down. If that hurts your sally feelings. Not much one can do about that now is there.
    I'm not saying you are an idiot, but if the FS did the work, they obviosly felt it was needed.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Prodigal Son View Post
    I'm not saying you are an idiot, but if the FS did the work, they obviosly felt it was needed.
    Right. Because everything government does is perfect! Call me what you like! More positive vibes for the Sedonuts.
    Currently at Mayo Clinic being tested for a kidney transplant. Donors welcome.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by k2rider1964 View Post
    I'll tell you where I'd liek to see some work in Sedona and that would be on Templeton. Going UP on those switchbacks might be fun if it was possible for any normal person. I've heard that it's possible but I've never seen it done and don't know anybody who can. Even if the step-ups were made manageable, you would still need killer skills and energy levels to clear that section.
    These are the types of skills needed to clean the climb on Templeton. The guy in the blue pack is one of the new owners of OTE in Sedona. Apparently, he climbed the whole thing without stopping. This is an example of what the 0.001% of the mtn bike riders can do. Should the management intent of maintaining a standard for system trails be to his skill level? I agree with you k2rider, at least not on a busy system trail like this. Elsewhere, hopefully the future plan will be to leave sufficient obstacles and features that provide the challenge many advanced riders are looking for.

    Sedona Higline Trail - YouTube

    edit to add: The vid is mislabled (not mine-I believe Francois shot this during the Magura Camp). This is the 3rd switchback on Templeton in an uphill direction from Budhu Beach. The 2nd is the hardest and what I would consider unrideable except by skilled trials riders with inhuman fitness.
    Last edited by rockman; 11-05-2011 at 03:18 PM.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    And what will it look like in 10 years do you think? It seems like people can only look ahead one or two months at best, without realizing what a trail really needs over the lifetime of it's existance. Munds is another good example, some parts of that trail are/were just too worn out, challenging is one thing, but just loose fall-line erosion is another, and with some improvements, it will erode and decay into a more challenging state over time. Most of the "complainers" do not realize the actual challenging trails that exist in Sedona, and the "improvements" are being made to the mainstream moderate trails. In other words, "you don't know what the hell you are talking about". This is kind of like complaining about the Schultz Creek re-routes, which have been done due to erosion and damage. Sure, maybe it reduced the challenge slightly, but that's what the other CHALLENGING trails are for. Some of these sections can not be left to be destroyed into an incomprehensible mess. Start riding the challenging trails (damifino, etc) and stop complaining.
    This argument really highlights differing ideologies. Look, I am all for trail maintenance and clean up to keep a trail in good working order, but from what I have seen in person and read the maintenance has gone beyond that. The position that there are more difficult and challenging trails, which I have ridden some in Sedona, so therefore it is okay to modify moderate trails seems flawed to me. In this scenario we could pick 1 - 2% of the hardest trails and then modify anything less, especially if someone identifies it is moderate and/or mainstream. Who decides what trails are moderate and mainstream enough to grant permission to modify? Why can't a trail be moderate, but still have a few sections of harder challenge? I still like to ride easy and moderate trails that have some challenge in them, don't you?

    I think of it in rock climbing terms. For those that don't know climbs are divided in to difficulty on a scale of 5.1 to 5.15. The larger the number the harder the climb. So if someone modified a climb by drilling holes, chipping bigger holds, etc., they have changed it forever. What if they said, "well I couldn't get up it so it was okay for me to do." Really? How about the others that could, or were close to doing it, or were working to get on it in the future. You just deprived them of that challenge. What gives you the right to modify it? Because it is a moderate climb and mainstream? What if that climb was great as a 5.12 and people loved it as it was and now it is a 5.11?

    Another example I can give is at one time 5.11 was the top of the difficulty grade. What if everyone drilled holds on routes that were too hard to get up so that it would be 5.11? Where would that leave the future generations of climbers? Like I said, once the top difficulty was 5.11, now it is 5.15. Could this happen in mountain biking? I think it already has!

    I understand that trails are more easily changed by weather, rider and hiker general use than rock and therefore, will require maintenance. But there has to be some ethical consideration into what is maintenance versus modification, and how that will affect EVERY person's user experience.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    This is the 3rd switchback on Templeton in an uphill direction from Budhu Beach. The 2nd is the hardest and what I would consider unrideable except by skilled trials riders with inhuman fitness.
    I rode with a guy from Canada who had never seen Templeton and rode up the switchbacks clean and non-stop....and there were hikers standing on the 2nd (hardest) switchback right in his ride line. He stalled and asked them to move before continuing up, clean. I watched with my jaw on the floor. He wasn't human......

    Brenda

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    Last edited by Centurion_; 11-05-2011 at 05:17 PM.

  49. #49
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    Ive cleaned the entire Templeton climb before but was thoroughly whipped by the time I got to the top. I don't think it's really that technical, but grueling especially after the end of a ride which is when Ive always done it. But even if that was "sanitized" to keep it sustainable, I wouldn't mind.

    Moto trials has always been my main thing so I like definitely like technical. That said, I don't have a problem with making the trails around Sedona more sustainable. When I want technical/trials terrain, I go ride the dells in Prescott. There's a plethora of creative lines out there. That's one of the things I enjoy most from trials is the creativity involved in finding my own lines.

    That rock repair by Llama looks good to me. If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's not like that was some super sick gnarly fun line to begin with. It was just a jumble of rocks you rolled down and HAB'ed back up...? Now it looks like you can still ride down a bunch of rubble if you choose, but ride back up the bridge.

  50. #50
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    Weak.

  51. #51
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    Doing my civic duty, I moved three rocks today.


    Sent from Jibro's iPhone using Tapatalk
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    These are the types of skills needed to clean the climb on Templeton. The guy in the blue pack is one of the new owners of OTE in Sedona. Apparently, he climbed the whole thing without stopping. This is an example of what the 0.001% of the mtn bike riders can do. Should the management intent of maintaining a standard for system trails be to his skill level? I agree with you k2rider, at least not on a busy system trail like this. Elsewhere, hopefully the future plan will be to leave sufficient obstacles and features that provide the challenge many advanced riders are looking for.

    Sedona Higline Trail - YouTube

    edit to add: The vid is mislabled (not mine-I believe Francois shot this during the Magura Camp). This is the 3rd switchback on Templeton in an uphill direction from Budhu Beach. The 2nd is the hardest and what I would consider unrideable except by skilled trials riders with inhuman fitness.
    Oh dang! That line was SICK! What a cool way to see a line up that awkward move.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    These are the types of skills needed to clean the climb on Templeton. The guy in the blue pack is one of the new owners of OTE in Sedona. Apparently, he climbed the whole thing without stopping. This is an example of what the 0.001% of the mtn bike riders can do. Should the management intent of maintaining a standard for system trails be to his skill level? I agree with you k2rider, at least not on a busy system trail like this. Elsewhere, hopefully the future plan will be to leave sufficient obstacles and features that provide the challenge many advanced riders are looking for.

    Sedona Higline Trail - YouTube

    edit to add: The vid is mislabled (not mine-I believe Francois shot this during the Magura Camp). This is the 3rd switchback on Templeton in an uphill direction from Budhu Beach. The 2nd is the hardest and what I would consider unrideable except by skilled trials riders with inhuman fitness.
    Damn... smoooooth as buttah, homie def. has some skillz ta pay the bills
    I dig dirt!

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona View Post
    Oh dang! That line was SICK! What a cool way to see a line up that awkward move.
    ...a manifestation of bad habits he clearly developed running clipless pedals! Were he running some 5.10s/Canefields he'd have tossed a back flip in there somewhere.


  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    ...a manifestation of bad habits he clearly developed running clipless pedals! Were he running some 5.10s/Canefields he'd have tossed a back flip in there somewhere.

    I wouldn't doubt that home boy has backflipping skills!

  56. #56
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    on another note...

    how is it looking in sedona today??? i need to go ride... just curious how much rain fell down there and how the trails are looking. THANKS

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    Quote Originally Posted by happy_ending View Post
    on another note...

    how is it looking in sedona today??? i need to go ride... just curious how much rain fell down there and how the trails are looking. THANKS
    he:

    Conditions yesterday on Under the Radar were almost Perfect. When we got to Carroll Canyon Wash there was water running, so while we rode the wash to Red Rock Crossing there were sections we walked because we didn't know how deep the water was in some of what looked like deeper holes.

    When we reached Oak Creek the water was cresting the rock crossing so we retreated to the secret crossing of Carroll Canyon and rode up Pyramid to Special Ed which was as good as it gets.

    The Sunday group ride is riding Ledge'n'Airy and I would expect it to be good there. I would definitely stay away from the Airport Loop, but I would guess Highline is in great shape. I might check out the new improvement on Little Horse when it warms up later where I hope to make it up Etch a Sketch and ride the Hogs which might be a little slippery due to facing North.

    TD

  58. #58
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    nice... thanks td... i fired you a text as well although im not sure if the number is legit anymore.

    anyhow, i havent ridden the carroll/pyramid side of town in forever. sounds like a plan.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy_ending View Post
    nice... thanks td... i fired you a text as well although im not sure if the number is legit anymore.

    anyhow, i havent ridden the carroll/pyramid side of town in forever. sounds like a
    plan.
    he:

    I am not a texter, but I just looked and got your message. Have fun on Under the Radar. You might consider: Starting at the High School and take Under the Radar to Under Under the Radar to Ramshead to Cakewalk to Pyramid to Witch Doactor to Pyramid to Special Ed and back to your car.

    If you want a longer ride you can take Double D to Ramshead to Ridge to Secret Slickrock to Ridge to the Secret Carroll Canyon Wash Crossing (which starts at the north end of the mobile home park fence and cuts across the wash to Red Rock Loop Rd.) to Red Rock Loop Rd. to Pyramid.

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildoc View Post
    he:

    I am not a texter, but I just looked and got your message. Have fun on Under the Radar. You might consider: Starting at the High School and take Under the Radar to Under Under the Radar to Ramshead to Cakewalk to Pyramid to Witch Doactor to Pyramid to Special Ed and back to your car.

    If you want a longer ride you can take Double D to Ramshead to Ridge to Secret Slickrock to Ridge to the Secret Carroll Canyon Wash Crossing (which starts at the north end of the mobile home park fence and cuts across the wash to Red Rock Loop Rd.) to Red Rock Loop Rd. to Pyramid.
    TD, with that new gated development going in across from the H.S. it's hard to find the entrance to upper upper under the radar. Or do you just access now from high school trail?

    Such a nice option to have the Carrol Canyon area as an option when things are wet. And all because of the Cathedal fault which goes right under the high school football field. A pretty major fault if it were ever to become active.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman View Post
    TD, with that new gated development going in across from the H.S. it's hard to find the entrance to upper upper under the radar. Or do you just access now from high school trail?

    Such a nice option to have the Carrol Canyon area as an option when things are wet. And all because of the Cathedal fault which goes right under the high school football field. A pretty major fault if it were ever to become active.
    The Under the Radar Entrance is about 35 yards above the Bike Path (High School Trail) entrance. We like it because it more of a downhill section to Bike Path where you travel for about 50 yards before going left uphill on Under the Radar again. The original Under the Radar routing was suppose to never connect for the short section of Bike Path, but the trail builder hooked up with a young damsel and spent much of his time trying to sweet talk her rather than building a unique entrance.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Another Successful Sedona Trail Improvement Project- Hardcore Riders Please Ignore-red-rock-crossing-area.jpg  


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