Another Horse Rant- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. #1
    Black and Sticky
    Reputation: Bituman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    722

    Another Horse Rant

    Today I was riding the new section of Pemberton and noticed that there had been quite a few horses using the trail. Not unexpected since MCOPLEA had mentioned it in this thread: http://forums.mtbr.com/arizona/what-...ty-838516.html. But the farther I went along I noticed quite a few tracks off the trail. Then it became apparent that in many cases the riders were so far off the trail, that they were, in effect, making their own new trail! Check out the photos. These aren't even close to being the worst cases. If they do these cut-throughs enough, then they will turn the exising 6 ft wide trail into a 20 ft wide trail! It turns out there was some kind of horse race event going on. It would seem that part of the orientation for such events ought to be telling the riders to stay on the trail. If the "novice" sign in the picture refers to novice riders, then I think the organizers and experienced riders should make sure the novices know to stay on the trail.

    Later on, I met several groups of event riders/horses going up the new part of Pemberton. I pulled over and stopped to let them all pass, all the while congratulating myself for not giving them grief about screwing up a brand new trail. Then in the very last group, the rider in front decided to school me by telling me to ride slowly, which I was doing because I was already pulling over to stop. Then 3 or 4 of the riders decided to ride off the trail by over 50 feet to pass by me and the other riders. I told the lady I thought they were supposed to stay on the trail and she responded that they were just trying to be courteous and that they "didn't want to lose the lead" whatever than means.

    I'm not one of the people that think horses should be banned from the trails. They have just as much right to be there as me. Plus, I know that it is impractical to expect them to stay on the trail 100% of the time. But it bothered me to see the areas adjacent to a new trail being blatantly torn up for no good reason by thoughtless and/or inexperienced riders. Am I wrong that horses should pretty much stay on the path?

    Thanks, rant off.

    Bob
    Edit-I forgot to say that most of the riders for whom I stopped and let pass were very nice and thanked me.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Another Horse Rant-tracks1.jpg  

    Another Horse Rant-tracks2.jpg  

    Another Horse Rant-tracks3.jpg  

    Another Horse Rant-tracks4.jpg  

    "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." - Neil Kendall

  2. #2
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,033
    Stopped bike rider, in their best Scotty (Star Trek) voice ... But Cap'n, I'm go'n as slow as I can

    I wonder who set-up this event ... Perhaps a kind word would remedy future trail diversions.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: SSdirt29's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    590
    hopefully as the new trail gets worn in and hardened the horses wont leave such a deep scar.

    How much of Pemberton was rerouted ?

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    452
    Quote Originally Posted by SSdirt29 View Post
    hopefully as the new trail gets worn in and hardened the horses wont leave such a deep scar.

    How much of Pemberton was rerouted ?

    I doubt it , 1200 lbs for the horse and another 300 for the rider really leave a lasting deep impression. Kind of screwed up SMP in a few places after the last rain.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: seandm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    687
    The destruction they did on pemberton is nothing compared to what they have done on the new granite mtn trails. Horses are right on par with motorcycles as far as destruction they do to trails in my book.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BinaryBike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    88

    Another Horse Rant

    I see this constantly in the San Tans too. It's frustrating. I wish the parks were more open to user specific trails.

  7. #7
    Elitest thrill junkie
    Reputation: Jayem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    32,357
    Quote Originally Posted by seandm View Post
    The destruction they did on pemberton is nothing compared to what they have done on the new granite mtn trails. Horses are right on par with motorcycles as far as destruction they do to trails in my book.
    Yep, this has actually been proven in a few studies as well.

    I agree too that the damage above is nothing compared to what we see in Granite Basin. They'll keep riding around the bad spots till the trail is 20 feet wide and pock-marked with 6" postholes all over the place. I have a few pictures I've posted from time to time.

    It's nice when we encounter trail users that realize it takes everyone cooperating and working together to keep trails open, reduce conflicts, and keep everyone happy. Some horse enslavers feel that it's everyone's duty to keep out of their way when they are on the trail and that everyone else should bow down, because they are riding a horse. As trail users, it's not our responsibility to make up for the lack of control that horse enslavers have. It's not our fault they are on an unpredictable animal. There seems to be little connection to the trail and experience though when on a horse. I can't say all of my encounters have been great, although most have. The damage I've observed in Granite Basin leaves me with no doubt that they are extremely destructive.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    5,411
    Quote Originally Posted by seandm View Post
    The destruction they did on pemberton is nothing compared to what they have done on the new granite mtn trails. Horses are right on par with motorcycles as far as destruction they do to trails in my book.
    I have to agree.. I was on Sonoran and Maricopa last couple weekend and hate the bumps they cause by the hoof prints. They just create trail chatter. The issue is that the weight of the horse and the rider is massive. Then place that on 4 small points and the will make deep marks in any soft ground or tear up hardpack into a soft dust. Bikes are much lighter (under 300lbs for 95% of us) and the tire make no impact.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '19 Ibis Ripmo, XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  9. #9
    Give it a crank
    Reputation: Mtn-Rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2,995
    Just like the 3-way yield rule sign seen on trails, we have the 3-way consequences rules:

    Bikers must yield to hikers leads to: bikers complain about zombie hikers letting dogs off leash
    Bikers must yield to horses leads to: bikers complain about horses damaging mtb trails
    Hikers must yield to horses leads to: hikers complain about horse poopoo on trails

    Can't we all just get along?

  10. #10
    Meatbomb
    Reputation: Phillbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    6,608
    Did you mention the off trail activity to the rangers at the gates on your way out?

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: metalaficionado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,002
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn-Rider View Post
    Just like the 3-way yield rule sign seen on trails, we have the 3-way consequences rules:

    Bikers must yield to hikers leads to: bikers complain about zombie hikers letting dogs off leash
    Bikers must yield to horses leads to: bikers complain about horses damaging mtb trails
    Hikers must yield to horses leads to: hikers complain about horse poopoo on trails

    Can't we all just get along?
    what about dog poop on the trails? seriously can you just let you dog move two feet and crap off the trail or if he does just kick it off the trail..

    my favorite - someone scooped up the poop in the bag... and left the bag under the rock??? what's the point?

    Anyway, I always try to be cool with the hikers - smile, say hi and thanks when they move over. I see plenty of unleashed dogs but most owners either pick the dogs up or hold them when I go by.
    ******* MTN bikers don't help our cause of keeping trails for riding.

    At the same time it's good to keep the talking points in your head whenever discussion about trails breaks out. We have to inform others how much damage horses make (plus crap) and frequently off leashed dogs when they blame mountain bikers for damage and dangerous behaviour.

    Plus I tell people that bikers on the trails serve sort of as patrol - because of how much distance we can cover - we can encounter people in need of help or even ward off crime - would be rapists and such.

  12. #12
    kAZ
    kAZ is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: kAZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    263
    Sometimes people stash the poop bag and pick it up on their way back... if they remember... might be why the poop bag was under a rock.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: cstem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,849
    Bituman-thanks for stopping to take photos like you did. If you haven't already, I would call the park ranger
    McDowell Mountain Regional Park
    16300 McDowell Mountain Park Dr.
    MMRP Arizona 85255
    Ph: 480-471-0173 Fax: 480-471-3523
    [email protected]

    and politely alert them to what you saw. I know for a fact that the rangers are very particular with the promoters of bike races that they clean up after themselves and I doubt it is any different for the horse event promoters. Unfortunately, if an event has 300 participants it only takes 5 idiots to make a huge mess.

    The thing for us to remember is that as cyclists how many times have we ourselves come across gel wrappers, lost water bottles, old tubes and broken reflector pieces from other riders. This is why I will stop and pick items that can be attributed to cyclists up whenever I see them in addition to my pay it forward rule of picking up at least one peice of trash per ride, in the hopes that if I lose something accidentally it will be grabbed by another biker before another user type sees it.

    it is awesome you got pics though. That will go a long way towards stating your case, and will help the ranger make his case with the promoter-which if falls on deaf ears could preclude that promoter from ever getting a permit again. Good work!
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  14. #14
    Black and Sticky
    Reputation: Bituman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    722
    Phillbo and cstem - I have not written anything to Rand Hubbell. I promise I will do that and include the photos.

    After some reflection on this, I wonder if it would be possible that future horse events could be routed onto the old Pemberton instead of the new section. The old section couldn't really be damaged any more by horses. It's essentially a service road. It's wide enough in most places that the riders could even ride 2 or 3 abreast. I think the thing that bugs me most about what I observed is that the new north part of Pemberton finally resembles desert singletrack and over time the horses are going to beat it into a wide interstate highway. It's the thoughtless damage to adjacent areas gradual widening of the trails that I object most to.

    Bob
    "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." - Neil Kendall

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: cstem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    2,849

    Another Horse Rant

    I agree. 100% on all points!


    Sent from your Moms phone using Tapinthat.
    Vassago Cycles, Shadetree Bikes, Flat Tire Bikes, Galfer Brakes USA

  16. #16
    livin' the dream......
    Reputation: tjkm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    1,884
    If I was a horse person riding at McDowell, Stoneman Wash trail would be my go to route. You will not find a mountain biker on that trail unless they lost a bet. I hit part of new Pemby yesterday and Lariat. Brand new trails already traveled on by horses (and a few riders) in the mud. Now the trail has firmed up and we'll have horse marks until it rains again.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    5,411
    At least it will rain tomorrow!
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '19 Ibis Ripmo, XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,541
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn-Rider View Post
    Just like the 3-way yield rule sign seen on trails, we have the 3-way consequences rules:

    Bikers must yield to hikers leads to: bikers complain about zombie hikers letting dogs off leash
    Bikers must yield to horses leads to: bikers complain about horses damaging mtb trails
    Hikers must yield to horses leads to: hikers complain about horse poopoo on trails

    Can't we all just get along?
    If we all could read, yes.

    In general, bike riders yield to both hikers and horseback riders; hikers yield to horseback riders. However, for all trail users, downhill yields to uphill. Use common sense and courtesy while on the trails.

    If you're illiterate, you might just get told to fvck yourself .
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  19. #19
    Click Click Click
    Reputation: dirtbyte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,593
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    However, for all trail users, downhill yields to uphill. Use common sense and courtesy while on the trails.
    Yep, I think the common sense thing is my biggest issue. Dog poop in bags left behind, I wish I could catch someone doing that to understand their logic, if you don't want to carry it just let them poop off the side of the trail, or just kick the poo off the trail. Hikers with earbuds in both ears, that are ticked at me when I pass them and they are surprised by me (yeah, there are other people out on the trails other than you). And the fact that a lot of trail users change their definition of "Yield" when out on the trails. Yield means slow down and allow others the right of way, and to pass, not pull 10 feet off the trail (I don't run my car over the sidewalk and up onto the grass to let a car pass, LOL). And yes, common sense includes refraining from taking a 1000+ animal with steel shoes on out on a trail just after major rain, this is just disrespecting all other trail users. But whatever, this is the way things have always been, and will not likely change any time soon. I aim to be just polite enough to not be kissing other trail users a$$, but also not irritate them enough to hate mountain bikers.

    Ron White said it best "You can't fix stupid"

    I feel very lucky to live in a state with such a great trail system so close to my house that I can ride year round, and hope to keep it that way.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    84
    My daughter is 12. She took horseback riding lessons starting when she was 6. She quit at 9 because there was a lot of pressure to compete and she just liked riding for fun.

    She now loves to bike with me. We ride both MTB and Road bikes but Mountain is what she likes best.

    It's funny but she's much more annoyed about the horseback riders than I am. When they're out on the wet trails and leave deep divots, riding off the trail making shortcuts, when we meet them and they are too self-absorbed to say hi or make eye contact...

    Last week we were out at Sonoran by the 14th Street trailhead and we met a large group (20-30 riders and horses) on the trail, we pulled off and waited while they passed, a few of the people made a few comments (including thank you's).

    We rode our loop and met them again on 14th Street as we were pulling up to our truck. They were in such a disarray that they took up the full width of the paved road and we had a hard time getting by them even though we were heading in the opposite direction.

    I think most of the problems we encounter with other trail users have less to do with them being horseback riders, hikers or other bike riders and more to do with the lack of respect people show each other today.

    Whether on the internet or in person people just have a huge sense of entitlement and self-importance that wasn't tolerated years ago.

  21. #21
    My other ride is your mom
    Reputation: Maadjurguer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    5,383
    Quote Originally Posted by kf9yr View Post
    i think most of the problems we encounter with other trail users have less to do with them being horseback riders, hikers or other bike riders and more to do with the lack of respect people show each other today.

    Whether on the internet or in person people just have a huge sense of entitlement and self-importance that wasn't tolerated years ago.
    ftw




  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: JoePAz's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    5,411
    Quote Originally Posted by kf9yr View Post
    I think most of the problems we encounter with other trail users have less to do with them being horseback riders, hikers or other bike riders and more to do with the lack of respect people show each other today.

    Whether on the internet or in person people just have a huge sense of entitlement and self-importance that wasn't tolerated years ago.
    +2.... I always try to say thank you to any hikers that I meet on the trail. 90% of the time they will allow me to pass, but unless I am crawling up a climb at 5-6 mph I will always slow as our paths cross. I always acknowledge in a friendly way even if the trail is wide and we can both pass easily. Just nice to let them know I know they are there rather than expecting them to " get out of my way because I coming fast and you will get run over" that I have seen from some. In fact I have had other bikers pass me in similar way and it just not cool. Even if you barely slow down a nod, wink or something to recognize that you see me is appreciated.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '19 Ibis Ripmo, XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: brent701's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    2,421
    What about when the horse go the wrong way?
    I was riding Estrella for the 1st time last week to do a pre run for the race. I saw 6 or 7 horseback riders entering the trail going the wrong way... What gives with that?
    Last Sunday I saw 2 bike riders enter White tanks Comp track the wrong way..
    Too Many .

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    51
    [QUOTE=mtbdennis;10175533]Ron White said it best "You can't fix stupid"
    You can fix stupid however the police say it is illegal.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.