Wet ground crossing - rock armoring- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Wet ground crossing - rock armoring

    Hi All
    Im on an ambitious trail building project crossing a lot of wet spots. There is no access for gravel and im reluctant using timber since there are no sources nearby but plenty of rocks. I have been experimenting with turnpikes/causeways and would like to see examples from your part of the world. Im situated in Iceland. Heres an example of what we are doing:
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...1&id=726526239
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...1&id=726526239

    The tread is filled with dirt in the lack of better material
    Last edited by Joho; 08-22-2010 at 07:10 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joho
    Hi All
    Im on an ambitious trail building project crossing a lot of wet spots. There is no access for gravel and im reluctant using timber since there are no sources nearby but plenty of rocks. I have been experimenting with turnpikes/causeways and would like to see examples from your part of the world. Im situated in Iceland. Heres an example of what we are doing:
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...1&id=726526239
    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pi...1&id=726526239

    The tread is filled with dirt in the lack of better material
    That looks really good. I've done a couple of 10 foot sections to get over a mud hole here and there but nothing that long. I've seen some pics of a trail project in Wales that's similar to yours.

    Are you going to fill/cover with dirt?

  3. #3
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    That looks really nice.

    Does your group have any similar sections of trail that have been through freeze/thaw cycling and perhaps heavy rain? How well does it hold up?

    Walt

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    Sustainabillity

    The causeway or turnpikes we built was built this year, and we have to see how they hold up. There will definately be frostheaving in the ground below the construction since it is floating on waterlogged ground. The anchorstones on the sides are dug down a bit but the stones in between is on top of the soil layer. All organic material is removed. we did not use any geocells or cloth underneath the rock layer so we will most likely loose fill material during the winter. I will let you know how this is holding up. Hope to see pictures from similar constructions that others have made.

  5. #5
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    Fill

    on some of the causeways we built this summer, we had a source of dirtmixed gravel nearby. That made a strong topping on the rock bed. The latest we built was topped with small grained dirt in lack of a better source and the long transport distance. I am sceptical of the sustainabillity of this one, but worst case it will be refilled next summer.

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  7. #7
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    Another plea for sharing experience.

    I have to figure out how to deal with some wet areas. I've already rerouted to the best available location. It's going to need either a ladder bridge or a turnpike. I can get materials for either, but I'd prefer to do the better job.

    Anyone have a rough idea of how the labor compares between bridges and turnpike?

    Walt

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Dizzy
    Anyone have a rough idea of how the labor compares between bridges and turnpike?

    Walt
    Depends...

    If you have alot of rocks available and access to good fill and mineral soil, you can do much of the work gathering resources around the work area.

    Same goes with a bridge, if you have lumber available you can use what's around the work area. But typically many bridges you are talking about bringing wood in. Depending how isolated the trouble spot, you can spend alot of time just with hauling material in.

    If you have a bunch of people building turnpikes it can go pretty fast. It's easy to have people familiar with stone work, working on the retention a few folk, while you have many grunts acquiring more stones and fill. If you have a bunch of people for a bridge build it's likely you will have most stand around watching 3 or so peeps work for much of the time, as you would likely want most if no all the material present at work site.

    Short answer bridge building is quicker than building turnpike, but the variables can change that.
    .~...|\
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skookum
    Depends...

    Short answer bridge building is quicker than building turnpike, but the variables can change that.
    Yah, I was thinking about the same.

    At this moment, I'm leaning toward turnpiking. I have fixed a wet spot using cobblestones. The repair has held up OK, but most riders seem to go around it whenever the mud dries up. I'm thinking that if I had just filled in around the cobbles with gravel, it would have been ridden more.

    Cobbles + gravel seems very close to turnpiking to me.

    Walt

  10. #10
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    Walt, keep in mind that a ladder bridge has a maximum lifespan of 8 years (the standard in provincial and regional parks here).

    It may last longer but both levels of government insist that we guarantee to replace any wooden structure every 8 years and we inspect and give a detailed report every year. We have no schedule of maintenance or replacement on mineral structure, just "as required". They don't differentiate between built up rock and gravel (cribbing walls, turnpikes, tabletops, etc.) and natural trail tread.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Ninja
    Walt, keep in mind that a ladder bridge has a maximum lifespan of 8 years (the standard in provincial and regional parks here).

    It may last longer but both levels of government insist that we guarantee to replace any wooden structure every 8 years and we inspect and give a detailed report every year. We have no schedule of maintenance or replacement on mineral structure, just "as required". They don't differentiate between built up rock and gravel (cribbing walls, turnpikes, tabletops, etc.) and natural trail tread.
    Thanks, excellent points as usual TN. I am not aware of a specific expiration date for wooden structures in my park system, but I'm guessing a substantial amount of decay would occur within 8 years regardless.

    A different point: the wet area I'm concerned with has a fair depth of black, mucky topsoil. I'm guessing that a turnpike will simply get pounded into the muck, and I must dig down to clay or better to get a lasting structure. Opinions?

    Sorry for the hijack, still hoping for photos per the OP's request.

    Walt

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Dizzy
    I'm thinking that if I had just filled in around the cobbles with gravel, it would have been ridden more.

    Cobbles + gravel seems very close to turnpiking to me.
    You are not raising the tread, you are now talking about reinforcing the tread. It's a viable practice for wet areas or any area of trail where you think tires may wear the tread.

    And yah if you can get some crushed gravel, and if the cobbles are seated well, and not undulating much, usually people have no problem putting tires to it, regardless of if there is mud present or not.




    Quote Originally Posted by Walt Dizzy
    A different point: the wet area I'm concerned with has a fair depth of black, mucky topsoil. I'm guessing that a turnpike will simply get pounded into the muck, and I must dig down to clay or better to get a lasting structure. Opinions?
    Yah you want to find the mineral. In some cases you could be in a boggy area and you cannot hit a nice foundation, you might want to build a bridge. (or preferably re-route) And instead of using post for bridges you're going to have to find some big logs to lay across, these are called sleepers, and will support your span.
    .~...|\
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    ~....|....\
    ...~.|.....\
    ....~|____\
    _____||_________
    .\....FAILBOAT..../

  13. #13
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    Oh, I think I know the stuff you're talking about Walt. On the kid's trails, we had a place called "Black Bog". We "floated" a wooden bridge like Skookum is talking about. We had 36" or bigger red cedar for sleepers and we were still constantly replacing them as they sank into the ooze.

    Before the bridge:

    Attachment 566183

    Attachment 566184
    Last edited by Trail Ninja; 11-23-2012 at 11:43 AM.

  14. #14
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    i've developed a lightweight ground stabilizing recycled material that can be used for problem areas like this. it saves a huge amount of work.
    broadcasting from
    "the vinyl basement"

    build trail!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    i've developed a lightweight ground stabilizing recycled material that can be used for problem areas like this. it saves a huge amount of work.
    and......... don't leave us hanging!
    "The physician heals, Nature makes well" - real fortune cookie

    CCCMB trail work for trail access - SLO, CA

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trail Ninja
    Oh, I think I know the stuff you're talking about Walt. On the kid's trails, we had a place called "Black Bog". We "floated" a wooden bridge like Skookum is talking about. We had 36" or bigger red cedar for sleepers and we were still constantly replacing them as they sank into the ooze.

    I was reading over this post and could see a confusing bit. The sleepers are 36" diameter and 10 - 20' long.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by singlesprocket
    i've developed a lightweight ground stabilizing recycled material that can be used for problem areas like this. it saves a huge amount of work.
    What ya got?

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