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  1. #1
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    tld full face helmet question

    ok guys and gals,,,
    i thought i would come on here to seek some info as you lot seem a very friendly and knowledgable bunch

    i am looking to purchase a full face helmet for my next trip to whistler in september.
    what i would like to know is how do the troy lee design helmets compare to others.
    the helmet i am looking at is the carbon d2 crow .
    why is this priced at 370 quid compared to other makes like giro and the industries. when thier carbon lids cost arround 150 quid.
    are the tld lids simply that much better or would i just be paying for the name and a bit of fancy paint.
    i dont mind paying for quality (hence why i got the dt )but i dont like paying more than i have to for products, so if the tld lids offer no greater benifits other than looks, then i will opt for a cheaper lid.
    thanks in advance for your advice......

  2. #2
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    The TLD stuff is super nice - awesome quality, and super light. They are for sure lighter then the Giro Remedy CF.

    However, for the price I can not justify it. I have TWO giro remedy CF that cost me significantly less then 1 TLD.

    FWIW I picked up my Giros at two separate times off fleabay for ~ $120 each.

  3. #3
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    Hey delirian:

    I will offer some perhaps biased advice here

    First off - our team is sponsored by Troy Lee Designs so right away we have a bias. However, personally I feel that these helmets are significantly better than anything else on the market for several reasons. For many years I used other brands (including several carbon helmets) while my friends who owned TLD helmets continued to rave about them. Finally, last year I actually bought myself a D2 carbon and now I understand what the hype is about. The helmet is lightweight, it's extremely comfortable, all the straps are in the right place, the pads are washable, and - most importantly - it never, ever moves on my head.

    The liners in my previous helmets would eventually start to pack in and then the helmet would become a "bobble head" and would start to occlude my vision at critical times, especially on big drops or rolls (and, yes, they fit properly at the beginning). My TLD has never done this to me over the past 18 months of using it and still fits better now than any other helmet that I've tried on when new.

    Of course, the most important thing with any helmet is fit: for me the TLD fits better than any other full face helmet I've ever used - YMMV. Probably the only complaint that I have is that the helmet is a bit hot because the breath holes are pretty minimal, but that's been a very, very minor issue. Otherwise, for me personally I wouldn't trade it for anything else on the market that I'm currerntly aware of. Yup, the price of entry is high, but there's pretty much no going back for me now because it's a superior product that simply works better for me.

    Again, this is 100% personal opinion, but it's been my experience. Consider me a convert

    Cheers!
    Noel Buckley
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    www.knollybikes.com

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  4. #4
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    thaks for the replies/info guys.
    i think if it's good enough for mr buckley then it's gonna be more than good enough for me.
    could some one please tell me what o these retail at other there in whistler.
    i just want to know if i am better buying it here in the uk or if i would get it cheaper when i am over in whistler. thanks again guys

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirian
    thaks for the replies/info guys.
    i think if it's good enough for mr buckley then it's gonna be more than good enough for me.
    could some one please tell me what o these retail at other there in whistler.
    i just want to know if i am better buying it here in the uk or if i would get it cheaper when i am over in whistler. thanks again guys
    Hey delirian:

    I really like these helmets, but you will need to ensure that the fit is good as a helmet is obviously a very personal piece of gear and fit is the most important thing!

    Cheers!
    Noel Buckley
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  6. #6
    trail fairy
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    FWIW

    Here's the latest version of the TLD, Ive found that the previous model was a little tight fight on some googles, Ive been a Giro CF fan! But this looks pretty cool, mor venting betting air flow, wonder if they have chin removal pads like the moto helmet, breaking my neck this is an important feature and is mandatory in moto X helemts now!
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  7. #7
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    I just picked up an older model d2 carbon for a smoking deal, and I'm with Noel on pretty much everything he commented on.
    Just think, how much of a difference can the be between the 'actual' materials cost to put a helmet together, from manufacturer to manufacturer?
    In my experience, you pay a lot extra for R&D which equates to safety and fit. And it's almost always worth it.

  8. #8
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    I bought a TLD SE2 helmet from Chainlove this spring.



    As you can see the goggle area is just big enough. Not much room for play. I removed the roost guard which helps.

    Since it's a Moto helmet it's heavier than the D2 and shaped differently (Rounder for the larger DOT certified EPS shell inside.)

    It does not have the venting the D2s have BUT I've found it vents extremely well while in motion. The trick is to remove all the black foam screens in the face and visor vents. Then the wind flows through like an air conditioner.

    I would think it might be too hot for an all-day deepwoods lots of climbing freeridy helmet, but it's fine for shuttling, lifts and strap-it-to-your-pack-and-pedal-up riding. You can climb and ride with it on but don't expect sustained best effort xc breathability.

    Lastly the face guard gets a little close to my mouth but I found that problem with all the DOT helmets I've tried and most of the FFHs in general. (I've tried many while shopping) I guess I have a big face.

    As NB said it stays put...amazingly well. Great field of view. Very comfortable lining. ALL the lining is removeable for easy washing, and the cheek pads pop right out for emergency removal. It comes with (2) visors and a kickarse velvet lined carry bag.
    (which I never use)


    Keep watching Chainlove as I've seen them go for as little as $165!!!
    Faster is better, even when it's not.

  9. #9
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    thanks again for all the info guys......
    i think my mind is made ... it's gonna be the carbon d2 black and red one i think it looks the dogs danglies although i am really liking the new palmer one too.

    i am not to sure about sizing though... i just purchased a new fox xc lid and that was medium - large. but yesterday i went in to the local bike shop to try some tld lids the only carbon crow they had was xl that burried me. i also tried on a medium history that felt nice and snug but at the same time i felt that it was sitting high at the back of my head.
    how should a full face lid sit is this normal or should they cover the whole head.

    or is it just me being silly comparing how a full face mtb lid feels compared to the helmet that i wear in work. i wear a riot helmet in work obviously this covers the whole head and has a leather pad that cover the upper neck area. and a huge visor to.

  10. #10
    trail fairy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikezilla
    I bought a TLD SE2 helmet from Chainlove this spring.



    As you can see the goggle area is just big enough. Not much room for play. I removed the roost guard which helps.

    Since it's a Moto helmet it's heavier than the D2 and shaped differently (Rounder for the larger DOT certified EPS shell inside.)

    It does not have the venting the D2s have BUT I've found it vents extremely well while in motion. The trick is to remove all the black foam screens in the face and visor vents. Then the wind flows through like an air conditioner.

    I would think it might be too hot for an all-day deepwoods lots of climbing freeridy helmet, but it's fine for shuttling, lifts and strap-it-to-your-pack-and-pedal-up riding. You can climb and ride with it on but don't expect sustained best effort xc breathability.

    Lastly the face guard gets a little close to my mouth but I found that problem with all the DOT helmets I've tried and most of the FFHs in general. (I've tried many while shopping) I guess I have a big face.

    As NB said it stays put...amazingly well. Great field of view. Very comfortable lining. ALL the lining is removeable for easy washing, and the cheek pads pop right out for emergency removal. It comes with (2) visors and a kickarse velvet lined carry bag.
    (which I never use)


    Keep watching Chainlove as I've seen them go for as little as $165!!!
    Good score BZ, I'm actually really pleased you went this way for the bike and riding youre doing, Its good to see someone stepping up to prevent and pro long there riding career, now add a leatt to that combo and youre sweet, my bro rides with one all the time, its not restictive and not hot!

    Great stuff!

    Just to note linet the SE model that BW has now got the new TLD MTB version is fully leatt compatible meant its built to work in conjunction with it, imo Helmets and protection is not an area to skimp in I never have, if you can pick one up like BW did then thats good, but don't cheap, that leads to cheap outcomes!

    What is ya head worth, my injury has cost well in excess of $150,000, more close to 200k!

    My helmet did its job, but if I had not wrecked my full face a few weeks before at a DH race, I may have been wearing a Full Face during our dual salom event, maybe though without a neck brace the result may have been the same or worse as my neck would never have supported the weight of the helmet where and gthe way I crashed, it was a 40mph plus jump, I landed off track in ruts head first.

    If I was wearing a Full face now. my Helmet choice would be based on the removal chin pads and neck brace compatibility comfort wieght, vnting in that order!

    Other one I'd like to see more on is the POC, another moto wich is MTB weight is the Euro AIROH very interesting probably #1 in Euro MX right now, its light! and meets or excceds all current moto stds!

    https://catalog.troyleedesigns.com/c...oducts_id=2112

    SE2 Moto
    https://catalog.troyleedesigns.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=809_810&products_id=2172


    https://www.airoh.com/prodotti/OffRoad/SteltEvoAvenger17.html


    Stelt Evo Avenger

    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  11. #11
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    ok guys n gals...
    i am in a new dilemma now .
    my mind was made, and i spent countless hours browsing the many web sites, to find the cheapest price for the d2 crow carbon in black, there i was all set to order, then i go and see the vids and pics of the new d3. . this one look's well better than the d2 and looks like it will offer more protection. (going off what the vid says on tld website).
    so now i am really lusting after one of these new d3 helmets.
    can anyone confirm if they are on sale yet,( as i cant find them anywhere), or does anyone know when they go on sale.
    i will be coming out to whistler on the 12th of september (consider this an advanced warning ) for the last 3 weeks of the season and will be wanting the helmet for this trip as i am planning on hitting the park this time round.
    thanks again for all your help and info

  12. #12
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    here is the thread for my search back in Jan. I ended up with the POC:



    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...ght=poc+cortex
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    Regional Race Manager, Knolly Bikes
    Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming

  13. #13
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    good thread.

    I'm going up to Angel Fire in a few weeks and I too am looking for a full face. I found a smokin' deal on this one from sixsixone. Anyone ever try this bad boy? A Lg fits nice and snug.




    https://www.sixsixone.com/Catalog_66...1-a5cc1b7d0cec
    k n o ll y r o c k s

  14. #14
    trail fairy
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirian
    ok guys n gals...
    i am in a new dilemma now .
    my mind was made, and i spent countless hours browsing the many web sites, to find the cheapest price for the d2 crow carbon in black, there i was all set to order, then i go and see the vids and pics of the new d3. . this one look's well better than the d2 and looks like it will offer more protection. (going off what the vid says on tld website).
    so now i am really lusting after one of these new d3 helmets.
    can anyone confirm if they are on sale yet,( as i cant find them anywhere), or does anyone know when they go on sale.
    i will be coming out to whistler on the 12th of september (consider this an advanced warning ) for the last 3 weeks of the season and will be wanting the helmet for this trip as i am planning on hitting the park this time round.
    thanks again for all your help and info
    according to Pinkbike released for sale

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/troy-l...s-d3-2009.html

    Changes from the D2 to the D3:

    - Added EPS foam for more protection. Approximately 1/4 inch more all around.

    - Added more vents for air flow. The D2 features 8 vents, the D3 has 20.

    - Aerodynamics have been increased for less wind resistance.

    - All screws, bolts, and buckles are Titanium.

    - 3 years in development.

    - Only 100 grams heavier than the D2.

    - Is going to cost $450 American.

    - Released in October 2009.






    Removable Cheek Pads



    Internal Design


    Back View redesigned to be NECK BRACE COMPATIBLE..
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

    MAXXIS 4C!
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  15. #15
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    yeah i was looking at that thread on pink bike on saturday........ i really like the look of that new d3 with all the new features. and i had read in that article that it was released in october, thats no good for me though as i would be wanting it for it september.
    i also read that it was officially launched at crankworx this weekend. so i was hoping that i may beable to get one intime for my whistler trip.
    so now i am left thinking do i go for a cheapish helmet to tie me over till the d3 comes out.
    i have seen the 661 evolution carbon on offer for 129 quid at a shop local to me. is this helmet any good , it seems to get good reviews. or would i be better say getting somthing cheaper for arround 50-80 quid.

    what does the d2 crow carbon retail at in canada. i know i have seen it cheap on a few u.s websites. but cant seem to find many canadian websites.
    and does anyone know wha the d3 will retail at i think i saw somewhere that it was 400+ dollars

  16. #16
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    1000 points for the use of 'occlude'....
    ride fast...take chances...

  17. #17
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    well guys thanks for all the info...
    i have just been out and purchased the 661 evolution carbon, one of the local shops has them on offer so got it for half price. i will see how this helmet goes. as i have never had a fullfacer before, so this is just a cheap experiment, to see what they are like and if a take to downhill then i will look at getting a d3 next year. thanks again guys for all your help and advice

  18. #18
    trail fairy
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirian
    well guys thanks for all the info...
    i have just been out and purchased the 661 evolution carbon, one of the local shops has them on offer so got it for half price. i will see how this helmet goes. as i have never had a fullfacer before, so this is just a cheap experiment, to see what they are like and if a take to downhill then i will look at getting a d3 next year. thanks again guys for all your help and advice
    Sweet I think ya can;t go too wrong with a Helmet that meets the std stds as long as ya do ya research and go for

    FIT, and Protection as ya key drivers everything else is important, like air flow and wight etc, but imo too many people focus on this first especially since the new stds that are coming out require helemts to be constructed to raise the protection and impact stds and have gained weight to do this!

    So as long as th fit is right then I'd say ya made a good choice, evoultion is quite a full on helmet!

    I'm not a big fan of Helemts or protection of any kind based on cost, high or low or deals unless like this one, protection is not something to skimp on I base this on my own experience! look at some neck braces or do some research for this as well, prevention is better than the cure trust me!

    The Evolution seems to get good ratings and meets good mtb stds, Ive not tried that one on only the Pro Bravo Carbon and I didn't like the fit for me, but 661 have a good range now and the Ev looks good, good luck with it, more info for others here maybe folowing this thread!

    Evoultion
    Meets ASTM 1952 and CPSC standards for bicycle helmets.
    http://www.sixsixone.com/Catalog_661...e-3d684e928f32

    Flight is interesting I'm sure this is the Helmet that Tracey Mosely is wearing or has for the last year or 2!
    Exceeds SNELL M2005 and DOT helmet safety standards.
    http://www.sixsixone.com/Catalog_661...c-2e97ef6e443e

    Not a big fan of MBA but here's there Helmet shootout form last year!

    http://www.mbaction.com/Me2/dirmod.asp?sid=&
    nm=Main+All+Modules&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B 96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=B1E288FFACAE4 5A897E3F47155C6B11B

    more Helmet MTB info
    http://www.shophelmets.com/content
    /Mountain_Bike_Helmet_Buying_Guide.htm

    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

    MAXXIS 4C!
    Helmet for your neck

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  19. #19
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    thanks for that trailadvent.
    thats the main reason why i went to the local shop as i really wanted to try on a few variouse sizes. according to the size guides and my head measurements i am arround a large with a head circumfrance of 59 cm but the large helmet was to big, it didnt fit tight and snug so i tried on a medium and that was a much better fit. nice and plush with no movment when i grabbed the mouth guard and moved my head from side to side.
    i also purchased a pair of fox goggles (the oakleys were to big to fit the helmet) .

    trailadvent...... when you said about looking into neck braces do you mean those leat thingies or just a neck brace in general.


    one thing that did kind of worry me though... is in the helmet box there is the general instructions about cleaning and caring for the helmet and the disclaimer about high risk sports being dangerouse blah blah blah. but it says that the helmet is only good for speeds of 20 miles per hour and not suitable for motor sports, (this i suppose is obviouse as there are seperate helmets for specific motor sports)
    but if these helmets are designed for mtb use such as freeride and or down hill then surely you are going do be doing speeds well over 20mph...
    is this just a standard warning they put with their helmets or does this mean the helmet isnt really going to be up to the task at hand.

  20. #20
    trail fairy
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirian
    thanks for that trailadvent.
    thats the main reason why i went to the local shop as i really wanted to try on a few variouse sizes. according to the size guides and my head measurements i am arround a large with a head circumfrance of 59 cm but the large helmet was to big, it didnt fit tight and snug so i tried on a medium and that was a much better fit. nice and plush with no movment when i grabbed the mouth guard and moved my head from side to side.
    i also purchased a pair of fox goggles (the oakleys were to big to fit the helmet) .

    trailadvent...... when you said about looking into neck braces do you mean those leat thingies or just a neck brace in general.


    one thing that did kind of worry me though... is in the helmet box there is the general instructions about cleaning and caring for the helmet and the disclaimer about high risk sports being dangerouse blah blah blah. but it says that the helmet is only good for speeds of 20 miles per hour and not suitable for motor sports, (this i suppose is obviouse as there are seperate helmets for specific motor sports)
    but if these helmets are designed for mtb use such as freeride and or down hill then surely you are going do be doing speeds well over 20mph...
    is this just a standard warning they put with their helmets or does this mean the helmet isnt really going to be up to the task at hand.

    No worries, hope it helps some, just trying to spread the awareness!

    Good call on going and trying them on at the local if ya can do that, def takes out the guess work and we all have different heads so sweet//


    Neck braces, yep meaning the Leatt - have a good read up here!

    Just have a good look into to it and decide for yourself, if you get advice just get knowledgeable advice when it comes to protection from people who are wearing them for example or have done their research, allot of bad advice being given from doods who are justifying there own risks!

    Just don't read this stuff there's plenty out there, so some googles, also note that not all neck braces are the same e/g EVS type or compression foam braces, I'm not going to knock products but, understand the common neck type injuries in riding and you will clearly see which ones don't protect you and which ones do, there's a reason sometimes for high cost of some things, protection is cheap compared to the bikes!


    LEATT FAQs
    http://www.leatt-brace.com/index.php..._id=72&id=3#72

    http://www.leatt-brace.com/index.php?page_id=14&id=3


    This is one of the key reasons I'm behind the leatt neck brace because its designed and tested by someone who has knowledge of the sport and the medical side of it, also they don't sponsor athletes to promote their product, its based on solid performance and backed up, nearly over 90% in moto now wear neck braces of some kind in pro and recreational sports, MTB has been very slow to get onto it imo, especaily with the high profile accidents of the last few years!

    This is to certify that Dr. Chris Leatt is the appointed Injury Assessment Officer for Motorsport South Africa. Please afford him any assistance that you can...

    “The prevention and reduction of serious injuries in motorsport is one of the major objectives of the Medical Panel of Motorsport South Africa

    I was introduced to the Leatt Brace by its creator, Doctor Chris Leatt, earlier this year. Dr. Leatt, a former competitive motorcyclist, is currently a Neurosurgical registrar at Tygerberg hospital, who has taken a sabbatical from his medical studies to develop a neck brace designed specifically to prevent neck injuries
    The brace has been assessed by local medical experts and tested according to SABS protocols. It has been found to provide the protection to the neck.

    I have no hesitation in endorsing the use of the brace for both car and motorcycle racing. It is currently in production in Cape Town."

    Dr. J C Boden
    President: MSA Medical Panel


    Again if ya can try different ones on if cost is a factor, there's 3 versions of Leatt, 2 fully adjustable and one non adjustable which is lower cost for example!

    Um not sure about the info supplied with the Helmet that sounds a little shy of its intended abilities. 20mph is maybe what I'd expect for a XC Helmet. disclaimers are actually butt protecting exercises It annoys me that on any one of the Helmet MTB websites they don't or rarely cover the stds or weights of their Helmets its pretty shonky imo, TLD for example don’t list there stds, for such a high end product this is surprising and should be mandatory, imo same with neck braces which are a little on the wild west side at the moment it will come at some stage! This is not to say the Helmets are bad, I have trust issues when information is not shared when selling anything to the consumer lol!

    Check out these in google and have a wee read! Just some Helmet stds that are out there!, interesting is a link at the bottom I have pasted, while not on MTB many of these same manufactures are from te same companies producing mot and mtb Helmets the stds The blowing the lid off Helmet stds info is very interesting and I’ve been of this thought myself for sometime, due to lack of info out there and what these actually mean and what we perceive is safe, there are a lot of variables, but its no excuse not to cover them when that’s what your product is intended to be used for or is supposed to be providing you protection!

    **ASTM F 1952 US Standard – Helmets Used for Downhill Mountain Bicycle Racing

    *ASTM F 1447 US Standard – Helmet for use in recreational bicycling but not downhill mountain bike racing or roller hockey.

    *U.S. CPSC 12.03 US Standard Safety Standard for Bicycle Helmets for Persons Age 5 and Older.

    **EN 1078 Euro stds European Standard - Helmet for pedal cyclists and for users of skateboards and roller skates.


    I believe there is a new standard coming out which is why the D3 has got heavier which will exceed the DH stds above but note there are many stds and both of these are below DOT minimum std for a Moto Helmet, SNELL being considered the top std, which if you rad that article below is very interesting and revealing about stds, especially the Euro std vs the US std and stiffness vs softness!

    I'm not about manafacturer bashing I just want answers and honest reliable info, and if I don't get this I will make as many as I can aware if it!
    Manufacturers imo have an obligation whether they have to be forced or not, if they are honest then it should and you'd think be forth coming as it lends credibility to their product and not just a marketing gimmick or some thing they’ve paid to out a sticker in their Helmet using a voluntary std or paying a royalty to gain credibility, the good thing about that article below is many exceed it in Moto, I wonder about MTB?

    Brain injuries are very hard to come to terms with understand, and identify, they don’t make themselves obvious either, I went down hill slowly after 2-3 months after getting out of my Philli brace and it took a long time to understand what was going on and have the right professionals support me and put me on the right track! still ongoing!

    On thing I think the combo neck brace and Helmet should do is support the load impacts and help absorb and lower the Gs in an impact but its only theory and what info I’ve read from Leatt and Alpine Stars! where as Helmet alone transfers allot of load onto the neck and spine something that part of the body is not designed to do, so as the FAQs and support info says reduces chances of whip lash HyperFlexion, Hyperextension and Compression these are the most common neck injuries, Leatt and Alpine seems to cover most if not all, where as many others are compression only and for me that’s a concern as the body will go to the next weakest point if only supported in one or a few ways!

    Have a read of this it may not cover MTB but its got some good info in there on what a Helmet should and should not do!

    I still think there are risks associated with MTB Helmets myself. But it’s hard to test so research is all I can do and its frustrating at the least what Helmet companies put out or lack of what they put out, mostly info is marketing!

    I maybe a little OTT in this but its sort of a passion after 18months of broken neck recovery and I have had over 20+ years of Moto experience as well in MotoX and road though less in road, still I’ve had some big impacts in Moto and never gotten up the same way I have with MTB crashes which I’ve normally felt from using XC to DH after a crash. What I mean here is and it may be skewed from memories but MTB impacts on the head and I’ve had many have always seemed to have shaked my head more than Moto impacts, though to be fair I only ever wrecked 2-3 Moto Helmets.

    I’ve probably gone through well over double figures [maybe double double lol] in MTB easily over the last 20years that said they’ve been good impacts, too and the Helmet has done its job the inners are cracked as well as the outer! I’m also a believer if any impact ya throw away the Helmet, scuffs etc aren’t, impacts but ya know what I mean if ya head gets shaken then the Helmet has taken a substantial blow and even though it looks good may not do the same next time!, the tests in the bottom link bear this out, As the over all shell should imo disperse the load/impact, this maybe compromised the next time around!

    I have also suffered a brain injury so I feel this every day, and that info is very interesting I would like to know my score! I know it was high, I do think though that MTB and Moto can be more protected than what they say for road going accidents, body amour neck braces helmets al combined and with the dirt terrain type of crashes we probably stand more chance of walking away from overall impact injuries! I mean I was told I should have never survived mine, condition and bones structure probably helped me to some degree! Hindering me now though!

    Still knowledge is a good thing so even though ya got yours now don't despair just be aware and as ya improve maybe up that Helmet once ya know where ya going!


    !

    http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/ge...iew/index.html
    Last edited by trailadvent; 08-23-2009 at 08:16 PM.
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  21. #21
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    great post there trailadvent..... lots of great info..
    i would have to agree with you there mate, what you said about manufacturers being shady with th info they provide regarding the testing and ratings of there helmets.
    i to spent many hours searching for the test info but came up empty.
    even on tld web site,, 661 web site ,and the web site .they dont tell you exacly what the test standards are or whats done to achieve said mark. they just say that they have these test ratings.
    if they were that confident in thier product then surley they would have links to the full test report.
    i am still left wondering now if this helmet i have just purchased is going to be up to the job. i guess wearing a helmet is alot better than not wearing a helmet but at the same time i would like to feel confident in the product that i have just purchased.
    maybe it would have been better to go with a motox or fmx helmet as some of you suggested. lets hope i never have to find out.
    although knowing me and knowing how often i fall off i wont hold my breath.

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