SF Anti-Helmet advocates preach it's actually "safer"- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    SF Anti-Helmet advocates preach it's actually "safer"

    Stupidest article and stupidest advocates:

    http://www.kcbs.com/Bike-Helmets--To...o-Wear/4808018

    "I personally never wear a helmet...I think I've got pretty good road skills...Some anti-helmet advocates think drivers are more likely to steer clear of bikers who they see are not wearing headgear."

    $10 says the guy rides a fixie.

  2. #2
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    $10 says he has deep Vs

  3. #3
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    i read a study that some cat in england took video multiple times a day...in different traffic scenarios a) with a helmet, b) w/out a helmet...and c) wearing a wig to look like a chick...

    results were that cars passed MUCH closer to the rider with the helmet.....gave WIDE berth to the helmetless rider......and cars in general slowed down for the chick

    the conclusion/result was that cars saw riders wearing helmets as 'experienced' and felt more confident passing.....passing an 'inexperienced' rider without a helmet the drivers were more cautious....

    weird huh?

    LINK to story.....i got most of it right....
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2clueless
    $10 says he has deep Vs
    Haha, $10 says he's got narrow riser bars and a chrome bag. Didn't you know that Timbuk2 was sooooo 2007?

    Chum, thanks for the article, and yes, it is quite interesting. However, I don't like the thought of relying on a driver to be more careful and safe because I'm not wearing a helmet. Seems like a dangerous gamble to me.

  5. #5
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    Don't need a helmet if there is nothing to protect.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by grrrah
    Don't need a helmet if there is nothing to protect.
    was that directed at me.....

    fugger.....


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  7. #7
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    When I used to ride on the street, I would zig-zag as riding. My theory was that drivers coming from behind would see you better and worry about what the crazy rider will do, turn infront of them? And they don't want to be the one to hit you. And as they pass you they would keep their eye on you because of the potential for an accident and everyone loves to see an accident.

    But I don't buy the theory that riding without a helmet makes drivers steer clear.
    Take Gravity For A Ride

  8. #8
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    I do lots of zig-zagging when I drive my car. All within my lane of course. I like drivers to be worried when around me.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM
    was that directed at me.....

    fugger.....


    Sure was! but be sure to wear arm warmers to protect them cool tats! Priorities you know!

  10. #10
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    I like crossing the street between the first and second trailers of idling gravel trucks.

    I hear it's actually much safer than using the crosswalk.....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel~
    I like crossing the street between the first and second trailers of idling gravel trucks.

    I hear it's actually much safer than using the crosswalk.....
    Hey, I saw you on the news this morning, sorry you didn't make it.
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  12. #12
    jrm
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    Thats nice

    Ill still wear mine regardless.

  13. #13
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    And $10 you lent him your skinny jeans

    His choice to not wear a helmet I like mine when whipping bar spins with no handed reach arounds

  14. #14
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    Having had a concussion as the result of a road ride crash, I will always wear my brain bucket. The rider's skill is a small part of the equation - stuff happens that's not under the rider's control.
    Work is the curse of the biking classes.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by grrrah
    Don't need a helmet if there is nothing to protect.
    Touche!

    Heard that on the radio this morning. Made me chuckle...

  16. #16
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    I remember that English study, too.

    It's true, hell, I give a lot more room to any biker who looks like a noob or an idiot-- like someone without a helmet is one clue, but you can tell when riders are bad at it just like you can tell when car drivers are.

    The problem with the study is that it's only showing results of car-bike interactions where the driver SEES the rider and has time and space to choose a reaction.

    ...and that leaves out a whole giant categories of ways to crash a bike, and I'm betting they account for far more accidents than the giving room-when-passing scenario does.

    Worst crash of my life was hitting a jaywalking pedestrian. It slammed my head into the pavement like I was a door and my feet were a hinge. Pure luck I lived.

    That guy in the OP's post is a fool. You can have all the skill and attention in the world, but in the city traffic your life is in the hands of the random people around you, and they ain't that reliable.

    And that is just one of the many reasons to avoid riding off-dirt whenever possible.
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  17. #17
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    I don't wear a helmet because of the guy that sees me, and decides I'm a better rider (ha, fooled him), and thinks its okay to give me less room. I wear one for the drivers that don't see me in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by baycat
    no handed reach arounds


    are those kinda like the 6' lap dances?

  18. #18
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    While I do wear a helmet, I do not believe in magic, and statistic for head injuries for road riding with or without a helmet is at least inconclusive. I do not consider helmetless riding an unacceptable risk, nor do I put on a full-face when I get out of bed in the morning.
    But then I do not ride on road that often.

  19. #19
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    British Study

    According to the British research, helmet-less riders were given additional passing clearance of 8.5 cm compared to helmeted riders. That's all of 3.34 inches! To draw the conclusion that it is safer without a helmet is ludicrous.
    Just get up again ...

  20. #20
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    Ha Ha Ha, I missed that number skimming the article! That's a handswidth, alright.

    Pretty funny.

    So either the reporter or the editor is an idiot for not asking the researcher if he was on crack, the researcher was not claiming any significant safety in 3 1/2 inches and was miss-quoted, or the researcher, the reporter, and the editor are a$$holes for misleading inattentive readers into thinking the study was meaningful.

    Something in that mix, anyway...
    "I think it's cool how the best line is also usually the most beautiful line" --Kurt F, Tamarancho, Safety Meeting

  21. #21
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    You know, I've fallen a couple of times without my helmet, and I don't think it... uh.

    Forgot what I was going to say.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel~
    I like crossing the street between the first and second trailers of idling gravel trucks.

    I hear it's actually much safer than using the crosswalk.....
    heh heh heh.

    Weaving around and shouting while walking gets me more room on the sidewalk, too.
    "I think it's cool how the best line is also usually the most beautiful line" --Kurt F, Tamarancho, Safety Meeting

  23. #23
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    When I was in college, like, 20 years ago, I wouldn't have even considered riding (road in those days) with a helmet. Cloth hat (campy, of course), but no helmet. After getting hit by a van, though, I started wearing one. But, I felt very lame for awhile. Now, I cannot even imagine not wearing one (road or mtb).

    I hate the idea of a law mandating helmets for an adult. What do I care if an adult chooses not to wear one? There may not be a cost to society -- one can argue that helmets prevent some injuries from happening, but they also prevent some deaths that turn into very expensive head injuries instead.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatdave
    I hate the idea of a law mandating helmets for an adult. What do I care if an adult chooses not to wear one? There may not be a cost to society -- one can argue that helmets prevent some injuries from happening, but they also prevent some deaths that turn into very expensive head injuries instead.
    It's 1988. The California legislature is considering passing a law requiring the motorcyclists wear helmets. ABATE (motorcycle advocacy group) is up in arms, as are the Libertarians, Hell's Angels, etc. Gov. Pete Wilson says something like $100 million to be saved not treating hopeless head injuries in emergency rooms. Law is passed, money is saved (maybe) and the biggest outcome is that there is now a shortage of donor organs.

    In motorcycling, some riders, including me, advocate ATGATT. That's
    'All The Gear, All The Time", even trips to 7-11, even around the block. I like my helmet. I like my crash pads.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by older and slower
    ...

    In motorcycling, some riders, including me, advocate ATGATT. That's
    'All The Gear, All The Time", even trips to 7-11, even around the block. I like my helmet. I like my crash pads.
    ...just in case that clueless-self-aggrandizing prius zombie takes you out while changing michael bolton tracks.....damn prius drivers! (shakes fist in air)
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  26. #26
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    So, It seems the safest choice is to start cross dressing, shouting and waving my arms for my road rides, and eating breakfast in my full face . . .no wonder my road bike gets ridden a tenth of the time my knobbied bikes do.
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  27. #27
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    Guaranteed this guy is a fixie rider.

    Haight and Ashburry culture says, "Hipsters = God. I'm smarter than you. I know everything. You shut up. Skinny jeans and ironic t-shirts FTW!"
    Meh.

  28. #28
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    meh ...

    everyone knows that helmets are for pu$$ies ... the cool kids don't need to wear them because we have mad skillz

    for those that preach the 'helmet theory' - talk to me after you take off your training wheels

    for me - I will wear elbow protectors because they actually work; but helmets are silly and won't protect you in a fall anyway ...
    "Often life has many clouds, but they quickly pass"
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by feetsnofail
    meh ...
    but helmets are silly and won't protect you in a fall anyway ...
    Really? You should talk to my friend who went otb last night and smashed his head in a rock garden. I'm pretty sure his helmet protected him as it had a giant gash on it.

  30. #30
    Ride what you want!!
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    making fun of different type of bike riders.... check
    helmet preaching and anecdotal evidence.... check

    Just needs someone to ask about which tires to run and all the bases would be covered.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by george_da_trog
    helmet preaching and anecdotal evidence.... check
    What other kind of evidence do I need? My friend ate sh!t and hit his head on a rock. He didn't get a concussion. I'm sold.

    I will admit the fixie bashing gets very old.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM
    i read a study that some cat in england took video multiple times a day...in different traffic scenarios a) with a helmet, b) w/out a helmet...and c) wearing a wig to look like a chick...

    results were that cars passed MUCH closer to the rider with the helmet.....gave WIDE berth to the helmetless rider......and cars in general slowed down for the chick

    the conclusion/result was that cars saw riders wearing helmets as 'experienced' and felt more confident passing.....passing an 'inexperienced' rider without a helmet the drivers were more cautious....

    weird huh?

    LINK to story.....i got most of it right....
    So, what they are sayng is that cautious and observant, aka "good", drivers know how to properly share the road with cyclists of varying skill levels. Shouldn't assume the same goes for little Susie Q who just turned 16 or Joe Blow businessman on his cell.

    Bottom line, all that this San Francisco "anti-helmet movement" proves is that darwin was right
    Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come

  33. #33
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    I hope all those riding without helmets have checked the 'organ donor' box on their licenses.
    There are no stupid questions but there are A LOT of inquisitive idiots.


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  34. #34
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    Yeah, Paul Dorn is one of those I don't need a helmet because I do ride very fast types. He's preaching change the roads, increase cycling skills and change drivers but who needs a helmet.

    http://www.sacbee.com/livinghere/sto...ents_Container

    Having been hit fives times my helmet has alway prevent more injury. I say let them ride without a helmet but when they show up at the ER with head injuries charge them an "idiot" premium to put them back together again. It's the same movement regarding motocycle helmets........I see Darwin is alive and well for now.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life
    Having been hit fives times my helmet has alway prevent more injury. I say let them ride without a helmet but when they show up at the ER with head injuries charge them an "idiot" premium to put them back together again. It's the same movement regarding motocycle helmets........I see Darwin is alive and well for now.
    Why stop at helmets? Why not require knee pads, elbow pads, full face helmet, spine protector? Seriously? If the public benefits is the goal, and with head injuries actually being quite rare, don't we need to require everybody to don a full protection suit when they get out of bed? Aren't you an "idiot" if you do not that?

    People are actually quite good at self regulating when it concerns their safety. It is the manufacturers that need to be persuaded to provide safety options. Last time I checked helmets are widely available, and riding bike without one is definitely not a death sentence. Screw nanny state.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Why stop at helmets? Why not require knee pads, elbow pads, full face helmet, spine protector? Seriously? If the public benefits is the goal, and with head injuries actually being quite rare, don't we need to require everybody to don a full protection suit when they get out of bed? Aren't you an "idiot" if you do not that?

    People are actually quite good at self regulating when it concerns their safety. It is the manufacturers that need to be persuaded to provide safety options. Last time I checked helmets are widely available, and riding bike without one is definitely not a death sentence. Screw nanny state.
    And you're allowed to have your opinion. I just think their should be a baseline for personal safety when riding a bike. Just like the AMA setup safety standards for those that race. Just like the baseline requirements for driving a vehicle. How many times have you seen people riding bikes on the street that do not know the rules.

    I think if you had a head injury you would think twice about it being a death sentence. I've seen my fair share of nasty head injuries that could have been prevented or reduced. But lucky for us the square pegs downtown have not made it manditory.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life
    And you're allowed to have your opinion. I just think their should be a baseline for personal safety when riding a bike. Just like the AMA setup safety standards for those that race. Just like the baseline requirements for driving a vehicle. How many times have you seen people riding bikes on the street that do not know the rules.

    I think if you had a head injury you would think twice about it being a death sentence. I've seen my fair share of nasty head injuries that could have been prevented or reduced. But lucky for us the square pegs downtown have not made it manditory.
    Racing organizers can require anything, it is their private matter. Car rules are needed to a) make it safer for people other then you b) force options to be provided.

    That is not the case with riding bike on a street. Head injuries are in fact rare, you personal experience notwithstanding, and it is not their business to mandate anything to a free citizen. I am glad that "pegs" are staying out of my business of what and when to wear. I grew up in the Soviet Union, and even there nobody was meddling in that.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    Racing organizers can require anything, it is their private matter. Car rules are needed to a) make it safer for people other then you b) force options to be provided..
    Totally agree along with riding on land that the owners mandate helmet wear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy
    That is not the case with riding bike on a street. Head injuries are in fact rare, you personal experience notwithstanding, and it is not their business to mandate anything to a free citizen. I am glad that "pegs" are staying out of my business of what and when to wear. I grew up in the Soviet Union, and even there nobody was meddling in that.
    I didn't become such a proponent of helmet wear until I crash and received a somewhat major head injury. But before that you wouldn't catch me dead with a helmet on. Now, I ride by choice with a helmet. But growing up in the UK, helmets were nonexistent and we rode everywhere (without a helmet) since we didn't own a car. But I will say one thing (the last time I was in the UK) their were a lot less cars on the street then in any given town in the USA. A lot more people riding scooters, bikes and walking.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbiker4life
    Now, I ride by choice with a helmet.
    So do I. Collection of helmets in my garage include helmets for: rock climbing, mountaineering, skiing, skating, couple biking - full face on order, surfing, skydiving, and boxing. I must be forgetting something else. One of my old climbing helmets has a very decent gash in it. I do not want to think what would have happened if I was not wearing one.

    That said, I do despise mandatory helmet laws. I do not ride on roads when I can. If riding on a smooth bike path I do think I have a likelihood of falling, due to any of possible circumstances, that exceeds that during a regular jogging.

  40. #40
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    I think half the smug ass hipsters working in SF bike shops should never wear helmets. Get rid of em all Muni!

  41. #41
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    All I can say is that in general driving standards in SF are the worst Ive experienced anywhere! By that I include Africa, Asia & Europe. Drivers generally dont seem to give a [email protected] period whether you are in a car or on a bike - total lack of consideration, mirrors/indicators never used, lack of spatial awareness. I felt safer riding my bike through a Nepalese rush hour than going out for a ride here. At least 4 times today some [email protected] idiot nearly dumped me off my bike...

  42. #42

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    its easy to ride and drive in SF. most drivers are very bicycle aware and treat them like another road vehicle.. thats fine with me. it scares me more riding in places where people dont expect cyclists and do stupid things and block traffic trying to avoid you..

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    Yeah perhaps its just me & Im not used to SF traffic but still..Im not sure driving standards are all that..

  44. #44
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    Crash22 - I agree, SF drivers are generally bad... always assume someone is going to run a red light and that no one will indicate for turns (or merges), etc. Once you do that, it's fairly easy to get around with minimal drama. I'm pretty sure that the most common car on bike accident is the right hook. Of course, I've seen plenty of bicyclist in the city ride without a clue... for instance, bombing past a car that has its turn indicator on and is just about to turn right... geez, slow down, check your six, and then pass the car on the left.

    BTW, things aren't much better for pedestrians in the city... careful when you step into the cross walk... You're equally likely to be hit by a Muni bus, taxi, bike, white van, or just some random driver...

    -Dave

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike E
    Bottom line, all that this San Francisco "anti-helmet movement" proves is that darwin was right
    Something for me to look forward to: less idiots on their fixies and BMXers making us cyclists look bad.

    I have seen a lot of people ride their bikes right through red lights and stopsigns. Guess what? If you are driving in your car and you see a green light in front of you the last thing you're expecting is an idiot on a bike crossing your path through the intersection. I'm sure that quite a few cycling-related fatalities are due to this behavior. A helmet probably wouldn't help you in this situation.

    Recently, I've seen a few cyclists riding their bikes against traffic going down Third Street away from The Moscone Center area. Most of them look like newbs without helmets but a few of them appear to be experienced cyclists. I almost want to yell out the window as I pass them to tell them they're idiots but then I would just look like another @$$wipe driver so I keep it calm.

    And if you are wondering why I'm driving through SF and not riding my bike through town it's because I can't pick up my kids from summer camp on my bike from Daly City.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prettym1k3
    Haight and Ashburry POPculture says, "Hipsters = God. I'm smarter than you. I know everything. You shut up. Skinny jeans and ironic t-shirts FTW!"
    fixed

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 105millimetersofpleasure
    fixed
    Well played, sir.
    Meh.

  48. #48
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    People, its time you adopted a live and let live attitude. Sounds like its just some young kid that thinks he is invincible. Life will or will not teach him a lesson. Basically just becuase he dosent wear a helmet dosent mean he will get hurt, ever!

    Some of us just choose the insurance route, like myself. This is my life though so I make the decisions, and I let others make their decisions. People smoke, ride motorcycles without helmets! and practice unsafe sex. Thats just the way it goes. Live and let live! Don't judge and don't be righteous.

  49. #49
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    "I personally never wear a helmet," said bike messenger Kinto Fannin. "I think I've got pretty good road skills and people feel like they need to preach to me about helmets, which is pretty annoying."

    Some anti-helmet advocates think drivers are more likely to steer clear of bikers who they see are not wearing headgear.

    "People fall down in the shower a lot and they don't make people wear helmets in the shower," said Fannin.

    AWESOME response! Since falling in the shower is just like falling on a bike, heck I was taking a shower the other day when this cab went flying into my bathroom and bam I went into the windshield.

    Actually the nice thing about a bad crash without a helmet is you have very little to worry about post crash... head injuries are really only a problem to your loved ones.

  50. #50
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    Yet another subject that has been done to death. "Advocating" not wearing a helmet is like arguing that not running a brake.... sorry, I mean "break" causes you to achieve "Zen" while riding. Is there a point? No. Those people need to get a life and/or direct their activities towards advocating something that would benefit the entire cycling community.
    R.I.P. Ronnie James Dio ~ July 10, 1942 May 16, 2010

  51. #51
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    While it is definitely silly to argue that helmets are dangerous, even the most inflated numbers of helmet effectiveness for adults do not put helmet-less cycling into a death defying activity category.

    It is kind of odd that folks gets hysterical about not using a helmet when JRA on a bike path, then proceed to go a hack off drops. I am willing to bet your odds are better on a bike path.

    My point is that grown adults are usually capable of estimating and managing risk. Preaching to them about what is acceptably safe and what is not, especially done by some skilled sporting enthusiasts, is just silly.

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