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  1. #1
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    Hydration packs - teach me!

    Been researching for a couple of days and there's so many variations of Camelbaks and Ospreys, it's confusing and overwhelming.

    How did you decided on what you needed? I was thinking to make it easy just buy what's on sale at Jenson or Performance?

    I would like 100oz capacity +/- and storage for some gear, mainly day riding is all and what do they mean antidote?
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  2. #2
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    You will find alot of people using the camelbak mule including me. I have no complaints, has plenty of storage for gear etc and a nice size bladder (100oz) which stays cold for several hours. I have no experience with osprey's but have heard good things about them too. I'd say go with what you think looks best and/or with what you can find the best deal on. You can't go wrong with either IMO.

    antidote info fwiw : Capacity: 100 oz (3 L)

    The new Antidote™ Reservoir with Quick Link™ System-- the ultimate cure for dehydration.

    Antidote features:
    - Quick-snap cap that tightens in just a quarter turn
    - Low-profile fit for unmatched stability
    - Air-light fillport cuts weight
    - CamelBak® Got Your Bak Guarantee™.
    If we built it, we'll Bak it™ with our lifetime guarantee
    Last edited by jws21; 08-31-2012 at 02:54 PM. Reason: spelling

  3. #3
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    What - LaRue doesn't make one in multicam or something? ;-P

    The only ones I've tried so far are the Osprey Raptor (10L, then swithed to 14L) and the Dakine Drafter (smaller version of Nomad) Both have served me well so far.

    The Drafter is my sub-3hr pack. Nice and compact. Great strap managment. Strong material.
    Exterior features are perfect for pad/armor/misc. carrying.

    Raptor is a more "techy" pack, but really shines with the bladder design. Main pack doesn't open wide enough for me, but has nice organization. Lighter material, but packs a bunch inside.

    Do I need 2 packs? not likely, but I do appreciate what each offers (and both were on sale!)
    Someday maybe I will find the one pack to rule them all, but this arrangement works for now.

  4. #4
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    I currently have 5 at home. It's all personal preference as far as the pack goes. I personally think Camelbak's bite valve SUCKS!. Everyone I have tried drips which is not cool with red gatorade. I have 2 Nalgene packs and the GF has an Osprey pack which comes with a Nalgene bladder. After having a nalgene bladder, I will never go back to a Camelbak. Luckily you can buy just the bitevalve for cheap which is magnetic. It works great at keeping the valve from bouncing around and is easy to find with out stopping on the trail. The other nice thing is the tube can be disconnected from the bladder without emptying the bladder all over your floor. Makes it nice to fill the bladder before putting it into the pack without having to feed the tube thru the straps. Hope this helps.

    Articulated Bite Valve with Magnetic Clip

    While finding the valve, I came across this pack which looks pretty good.

    Draft

  5. #5
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    The best hydration pack is the one that has a couple of compartments - not just 1 main one.
    Separate compartments keep your tools together, phone easily accessible, used gel packs from spreading all their stickiness, etc.
    You also need one that has a good mouth bit. The cheaper ones tend to have a pull to engage then bit to suck. This is fine, unless you pull too hard, and the bit goes flying off into the unknown. Then you end up with all your water pouring on to the ground.

    A few drips from a camelbak bit is better than all your hydration dumped on the ground.
    I have not used the Osprey ones, but I do like the 45 degree angled look. Easy access, but not annoyingly in your face.

  6. #6
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    I've been using a Camelbak H.A.W.G. (http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.asp...548&catid=1593) for about a year now, and admittedly it's probably overkill on anything less than an overnight expedition. Still, it works great, carries all my tools and gear with room to spare. Added bonus, the bite valve has a cover to keep it clean. If you've ever had giardia, you'll know why this is cool. There is also an on/off gizmo on the hose itself, so I've never had an issue with drips.

  7. #7
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    I prefer Vaude packs and think the 14+3 liter Hyper Air is perfect. I use platypus bladders but the only thing Camelbak I use is the bite valve, works fine for me. The Mule is a good compartmentalized pack but hotter, sweatier than Vaude, Deuter or Osprey. If you live/ride where it's hot, a pack with suspension matters as it keeps you cooler and sweat less, saving water.
    agmtb

  8. #8
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    I have the same on/off valve on my hydration pack. The insulation around the tube is also great.
    Help to avoid that terrible mouthful of hot water when you are really thirsty.

  9. #9
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    If you are on a budget, it may also be worth buying a cheaper hydration pack of the same build quality and swap out the mouth bit for something you prefer.

  10. #10
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    Camelbak is the way to go for hydration packs! I have had the Osprey bladders spring leaks on me but my Camelbak is still running strong.

  11. #11
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    Be careful buying cheap bladders. The valves can leak all over you while riding.

  12. #12
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    How far do you plan to ride and for how long? How far will you be from the trailhead at the farthest point? Who will you be riding with? What kind of tools/accessories do they ride with?

  13. #13
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    My wife and I have Giegerrig hydration packs. The bladder has 2 sides - one for water and one for air pressure. You pressurize it by squeezing a bulb to fill one side with air which forces the water out of the other side through the hose when you bite the valve. So when you are tired and breathing hard, you don't have to suck on the bite valve to pull water into your mouth. Just bite it and it flows.

    They also sell a separate in line carbon filter you can attach to filter the water if you need to refill in a stream or lake. Buy the 100 for the capacity, and you don't have to fill it all the way if you don't need to.

    Sent by my Android!
    Last edited by rogerfromco; 08-31-2012 at 09:25 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostRing View Post
    What - LaRue doesn't make one in multicam or something? ;-P

    The only ones I've tried so far are the Osprey Raptor (10L, then swithed to 14L) and the Dakine Drafter (smaller version of Nomad) Both have served me well so far.

    The Drafter is my sub-3hr pack. Nice and compact. Great strap managment. Strong material.
    Exterior features are perfect for pad/armor/misc. carrying.

    Raptor is a more "techy" pack, but really shines with the bladder design. Main pack doesn't open wide enough for me, but has nice organization. Lighter material, but packs a bunch inside.

    Do I need 2 packs? not likely, but I do appreciate what each offers (and both were on sale!)
    Someday maybe I will find the one pack to rule them all, but this arrangement works for now.
    haha - too expensive and i'm not a Tier 1 Space Shuttle Door gunner
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by armoredsaint View Post
    Been researching for a couple of days and there's so many variations of Camelbaks and Ospreys, it's confusing and overwhelming.

    How did you decided on what you needed? I was thinking to make it easy just buy what's on sale at Jenson or Performance?

    I would like 100oz capacity +/- and storage for some gear, mainly day riding is all and what do they mean antidote?
    Been through a few, and I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY recommend the Hydrapak bladders (several companies use them in their hydration packs, I prefer Dakine myself).

    They're SUPER easy to fill and clean and the quick connect is great, and most of the packs they come in are priced right.

    I got the Dakine Drafter at Pricepoint for $60, and it's an awesome pack. Light, holds a ton, and collapses small when I need it to.

    Camelbaks are very overrated, Ospreys are great but they're spendy and I've found just as good of features and quality in other brands.
    "Wait, this thing doesn't have a motor?" - Socrates

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by swingset View Post
    Been through a few, and I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY recommend the Hydrapak bladders (several companies use them in their hydration packs, I prefer Dakine myself).

    They're SUPER easy to fill and clean and the quick connect is great, and most of the packs they come in are priced right.

    I got the Dakine Drafter at Pricepoint for $60, and it's an awesome pack. Light, holds a ton, and collapses small when I need it to.

    Camelbaks are very overrated, Ospreys are great but they're spendy and I've found just as good of features and quality in other brands.
    i was just looking at that on PP - looks good and $50 on sale now. good pockets for my CCW
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  17. #17
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    Personal preference. With that said, my Camelbak was retired when I found the Osprey. Lay the two packs side by side and see for yourself. This of course is my opinion. Good luck.

  18. #18
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    I just picked up a Osprey Viper 10 from backcountry.com for $48 last week. It is my first hydration pack and am very impressed by it. I shopped around locally quite a bit and everyone carried the camelbak. I was not really impressed with the camelbak, and didnt see the features jusifying the price. I went off the online recomendations and got the osprey (which has a lifetime warranty)

    It is a smaller pack, but it has room for all my tools, snacks, first aid, tube, and phone. Plus it holds 100oz. Probably a 3 hr pack. It has alot of neat features like a hard support for the blatter makes install and removal a snap. It also has a elastic strap which holds your helmet and lots of hooks for pads.

    I am very happy with my purchase and definately recommend osprey.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fourstringsquire View Post
    I just picked up a Osprey Viper 10 from backcountry.com for $48 last week. It is my first hydration pack and am very impressed by it. I shopped around locally quite a bit and everyone carried the camelbak. I was not really impressed with the camelbak, and didnt see the features jusifying the price. I went off the online recomendations and got the osprey (which has a lifetime warranty)

    It is a smaller pack, but it has room for all my tools, snacks, first aid, tube, and phone. Plus it holds 100oz. Probably a 3 hr pack. It has alot of neat features like a hard support for the blatter makes install and removal a snap. It also has a elastic strap which holds your helmet and lots of hooks for pads.

    I am very happy with my purchase and definately recommend osprey.
    i think the osprey looks a lot better from youtube side by side comparos - looking at the raptor 10, the bladder seems well thought out.

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  20. #20
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    FWIW, I use an Osprey backpack for commuting and it's awesome.

  21. #21
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    It is personal preference but currently I have four. Two being military versions from camelbak. For long hauls it will either be the M.U.L.E or the Lezyne great divide both carry 100oz of water . The lenzyne's bladder isn't as good IMO due to a zip lock bag style closure but in every other way it blows the M.U.L.E out of the water. All the compartments are labeled so it makes fitting everything simple. It even comes with a whistle built into the chest strap in case of an emergency or if you ride with your dog.

    More information here for the Lezyne:

    Cedric and the Great Divide.mp4 - YouTube

    More information on the M.U.L.E

    http://forums.mtbr.com/beginners-cor...ke-781251.html


    The other two are 70oz ones so no help for you with those but, I would look up the great divide or the M.U.L.E in the milspec as it's built more rugged and the valve system is better then the civilian model. No experience with Osprey.

  22. #22
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    i went ahead and ordered the Osprey Raptor 10 small/medium pack in gray - it's very well thought out too
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by armoredsaint View Post
    i went ahead and ordered the Osprey Raptor 10 small/medium pack in gray - it's very well thought out too
    Good choice! Thats what I have. I want something bigger though like maybe the Viper 13. I wouldve gone with that in the first place but the R10 was only $55 on clearance at REI. Awesome deal!

  24. #24
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    Great choice. S&C has the R14 for $59 for the next 20 minutes if anyone else is looking. Sort of big for biking but still a great pack.

    Post some comments after you try it out. BTW, the bladders on the Raptors are Nalgene bladders. Same bite valve and magnetic clip I referred to in my previous post. Enjoy
    J

  25. #25
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    I also have the camelback Mule. Its too large for the kind of riding i do. I just need a smaller pack for water, tools and tube.

  26. #26
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    Osprey.

    If something goes wrong, they'll take care of it. They shipped me a brand new bladder when mine started leaking. And I bought it used from the REI garage sale to begin with.

  27. #27
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    Geigerrig has a lifetime warranty on their bladders, they can be turned inside out to clean, and you pressurise one side to force water out the tube when you bite the valve. The last part is great when you are breathing hard and want water. Just bite and keep breathing through you're nose while drinking.

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  28. #28
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    I'm a Dakine fan. Own the Nomad and another model that is smaller.

  29. #29
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    I just picked up the Osprey Zealot 10. I have had a ton of packs and have never really had too many issues with any that I have had, but they always seemed to be missing a little something.

    Seems the Zealot just takes things to another level. The kind of attention to detail that we don't expect in bike hydration packs is just oozing out of the Zealot. The whole back panel, the iphone pocket on the strap, the helmet latch, the magnet for the bite valve, the roll out tool kit, the rigid panel bladder.

    Just seems that Osprey stepped the game up. I was about to buy another camelback or DaKine and decided to go for a pack manufacturer instead.

    Also got it for $100 shipped from jenson




  30. #30
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    i got a 3l at ross for $20 its always good to check out ross i happen to have a guy on the inside to tell me the good deals

  31. #31
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    I had a camelbak that was finally retired after 9 years. Was a great pack. Picked up an Osprey Raptor for $68 from camp saver and man, it's a nice pack. Lots of cool things built into this pack, but I wish the hydro pack was similar to the newer camelbak's with the quick release hose & not-so-stiff bladder. I might still swap a camelbak bladder into the new pack, would love to have the camelbak bite valve with a magnetic clip though.

  32. #32
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    Honestly, I can't see a non-Osprey bladder doing well in there, it is shaped so specifically...

    I'm very surprised that no one makes simple in-line quick-release adapters for the various hose guages?

  33. #33
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    what pack can securely carry a full face helmet? and has good back ventilation?

  34. #34
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    thanks for the info!

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    Wink

    It looks like i'm sold with the Zealot. I like a cool back when riding.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostRing View Post
    Honestly, I can't see a non-Osprey bladder doing well in there, it is shaped so specifically...

    I'm very surprised that no one makes simple in-line quick-release adapters for the various hose guages?
    I tried my old camelbak bladder in there today (ie, the sausage looking one), not the newer one that seems to keep it's shape better.
    It fit pretty well, just needs a magnetic end and it would be perfect

    I'm going to try my wife's camelbak bladder in there since hers is the newer style, I think it'll be closer fit.

  37. #37
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    GF just bought me an Osprey Syncro 10 pack

    (Can't post links...not at 10 yet )

    A consideration for me was the air mesh thing that rests on my back, as I sweat while I'm riding, the air between me and the pack helps cool me off.
    Current Stable: 2011 Niner EMD, 2011 Vassago Jabba

  38. #38
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    the airmesh and magnet is great, plus the reflective at night
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by R+P+K View Post
    Be careful buying cheap bladders. The valves can leak all over you while riding.
    Every Camelbak I've ever owned leaks! I just put a new bite valve on my old MULE, the bladder was new lat summer...and it leaks like 90 year old plumbing! I have to keep the valve turned to "closed" when I'm not drinking, or it drips all over me.

    I'm in the market for something else now.

  40. #40
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    I also have a mule for 2-3 hour rides and I also have a ventoux for all day death marches. The ventoux also makes a great day pack for hikes with my son. Both of mine are older models and will the anidote hydration bladder fit into the older packs?

  41. #41
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    watch youtube videos of people stuffing and unpacking the bags you like.
    This will show you what it's like to use the pockets and if your gear will fit well.
    The type of gear you take varies for the occasion and weather and environment and so on.
    Get a pack that fits your real needs so you wont be frustrated on the trail.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigKahuna View Post
    Every Camelbak I've ever owned leaks! I just put a new bite valve on my old MULE, the bladder was new lat summer...and it leaks like 90 year old plumbing! I have to keep the valve turned to "closed" when I'm not drinking, or it drips all over me.

    I'm in the market for something else now.
    Me too!!!!

    This season I switched to a Hydrapack 100L Big Sur, it's everything I ever wanted and more.
    The bite valve is the best ever invented.
    The large bladder opening on top makes it a breeze to clean - 2 swipes with a regular sponge.
    The helmet holder is also handy and I do use it.
    The pack can expand to hold a ton of stuff but collapses to a tidy slim fitting shape even with 3L in it.
    The straps are very comfortable even with 100+ temps - I never felt like after taking the pack off.
    Handy fuzzy lined top pocket holds valuables.
    The tube can be extended on the fly to make it easy to share, then just slide it back in.
    Personally I have not had luck getting the magnetic holder work.
    I just use a tube clip from my old camel-back, which they sell cheap too.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigKahuna View Post
    I have to keep the valve turned to "closed" when I'm not drinking, or it drips all over me.
    Yup

    Here is a question for everyone with the NON leaking camelbaks, How many do not have leaks from the bite valve with the valve turned ON?

  44. #44
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    does camelbak offer lifetime also?
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  45. #45
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    I went cheap. I may regret it after I use it a few times, but I bought this pack at Walmart for $29

    2 liter bladder and lots of pockets.


  46. #46
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    They are spendy, but I can't recommend the Geigerrig packs enough. They come in 70 and 100 oz models, with storage capacities of 500, 700, 1200 and 1600 cubic inch capacities. The bladders have a lifetime warranty and you pressurize them to force the water to flow just by biting the valve so you can breathe through your nose while still drinking water and continuing to pedal. I bought the 1200 cu in version and cinch it down for riding and can open it up to store more stuff when hiking.

    Review: GEIGERRIG pressurized hydration pack

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ltk1144 View Post
    Good choice! Thats what I have. I want something bigger though like maybe the Viper 13. I wouldve gone with that in the first place but the R10 was only $55 on clearance at REI. Awesome deal!
    That's not bad at all, I got mine few months back for about $89 discounted, I believe it had a MSRP of $120ish

    So far no complains, it's very well made.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BXCc View Post
    Yup

    Here is a question for everyone with the NON leaking camelbaks, How many do not have leaks from the bite valve with the valve turned ON?
    I put a new bite valve on about 1/year to prevent this....at least they are cheap.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BXCc View Post
    Yup

    Here is a question for everyone with the NON leaking camelbaks, How many do not have leaks from the bite valve with the valve turned ON?
    I have an old Camelbak bladder, from back before they used the wide opening lids. I've replaced the valve on it a few times, and oddly enough it's NEVER leaked. When I bought a new bladder last year, it's leaked from day one. My old one never had the on/off lever either. But I do find it kinda annoying to have to fish for the on/off valve while I'm riding...or waste cold water down my legs!

  50. #50
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    So I finally used the one I got for $30. The bag is great but the valve leaves a lot to be desired. It was real work getting water out of it.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryWallwart View Post
    So I finally used the one I got for $30. The bag is great but the valve leaves a lot to be desired. It was real work getting water out of it.
    Well, you bought it at wallmart.

    Don't take this the wrong way, but if you spend the same $30 bucks at a big sporting goods store, I bet you would have a better pack.
    Just one of life's lessons.

  52. #52
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    Can you swap the valve for a camelbak version? I am pretty sure a lot of different makes are interchangeable.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinderz View Post
    Can you swap the valve for a camelbak version? I am pretty sure a lot of different makes are interchangeable.
    Is that an impovement?


    My first ever hydration pack was a no name brand bought from the LBS back in 1994 or so. I replaced the valve a couple of times and ended up using Camelbak products. Sometime in the last several years though, Camelbak changed the design of their valves, and it's been downhill ever since. At least they added the on/off valve so you can somewhat shut off the dripping.

  54. #54
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    This is what I use. It's a little big, but I originaly bought it for short hikes. The Army issued me many Camelbacks while I was in, but never any that had storage other than the bladder itself. This one came with a 70 oz, but I replaced it with a 100oz. Not bad for $30.

    Academy - BCG™ 70 oz. Hydration Pack

  55. #55
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    I'm just going to tag along here...

    Anyone have a recomendation for a 2-3L pack with a small pocket for phone/keys/wallet and more importantly an easily/quickly accesible pocket for CCW? I don't want a bulk pack and this will be my first hydration pack.

  56. #56
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    Maybe it's the cop in me, but I would NEVER NEVER NEVER keep my ccw in a pack, or anything else other than on my body. But if it's what you realy want and you've weighed the pros and cons and feel good about it.....5.11 makes a few bags you should check out.

  57. #57
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    I definitely understand the hesitation of carrying off body and see it as a last resort but I feel that carrying in a pack securely attached to my body for the handful of hours per week I may ride is a much better option than not carrying it all. I'm not comfortable riding with my normal MTAC or Raven-like setups as I don't wear a belt with athletic gear. I haven't checed out 5.11, Maxpedition, etc because I'm hoping to get something more unassuming than FDE, multicam, and MOLLE webbing.
    PM inbound.

  58. #58
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    PM returned

  59. #59
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    Room mate gave me a camelbak blowfish. Its great lots of room and doesn't leak at all.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

  60. #60
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    Another negative I have found on some of the new 2013 Camelbaks (I own the Mule), is how they route the hose. Hose exits out of a hole at the top/center of pak, which on the positive side allows hose to be routed to the left or right, but on the negative side, does NOT provide enough security/guiding for the hose to run down the shoulder straps, and leaves the hose resting against the side of your neck. On longer longer rides this can get VERY uncomfortable and start chafing the neck ... a hassle especially in hotter weather!

    I brought this up to Camelbak's customer service and basically got ZERO assistance other than being told to buy extra hose guides from them? I've got a better idea Camelbak, do a better job designing your paks!!! Camelbak has lost my business for good and I'm currently looking at other manufacturers for my next pak ... Osprey, Dakine, Platypus, EPOC.

  61. #61
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    eta: used my osprey 10 for the first time last weekend and it developed a small leak on the left side, it looks like it was slightly cut or bad manufacturing - as always amazon was awesome and overnighted me a new one already.
    2012 Trek Fuel EX8 - Matte Black

  62. #62
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    Did someone say hydration pack?
    Hydration packs - teach me!-526729_3587169153014_429445376_n.jpg
    And that doesn't even include my Dakine backpack I use for skiing. Yeah, I think I have a bit of a fetish or something, will have to bring this one up with the counselor on my next visit.

    But in all seriousness, I use the HAWG the most, which is a little overkill for most of my rides, but I also pack along my elbow pads, my light gear on late afternoon rides (just in case), and a couple of tall-boys (beers) for me and my buddy for the top of the climb.

    I have never had any issues with my Camelbak's, most of them going on 10 years now with the original bladders. Then again, since I have always been happy with them I have never used anything else so there could be better out there.

  63. #63
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    i need to buy me one.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by kfb66 View Post
    Another negative I have found on some of the new 2013 Camelbaks (I own the Mule), is how they route the hose. Hose exits out of a hole at the top/center of pak, which on the positive side allows hose to be routed to the left or right, but on the negative side, does NOT provide enough security/guiding for the hose to run down the shoulder straps, and leaves the hose resting against the side of your neck. On longer longer rides this can get VERY uncomfortable and start chafing the neck ... a hassle especially in hotter weather!

    I brought this up to Camelbak's customer service and basically got ZERO assistance other than being told to buy extra hose guides from them? I've got a better idea Camelbak, do a better job designing your paks!!! Camelbak has lost my business for good and I'm currently looking at other manufacturers for my next pak ... Osprey, Dakine, Platypus, EPOC.
    With Platypus I have to shorten the hose so they're plenty long. My favorites.
    agmtb

  65. #65
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    Smile Dakind Drafter

    Quote Originally Posted by swingset View Post
    Been through a few, and I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY recommend the Hydrapak bladders (several companies use them in their hydration packs, I prefer Dakine myself).

    They're SUPER easy to fill and clean and the quick connect is great, and most of the packs they come in are priced right.

    I got the Dakine Drafter at Pricepoint for $60, and it's an awesome pack. Light, holds a ton, and collapses small when I need it to.

    Camelbaks are very overrated, Ospreys are great but they're spendy and I've found just as good of features and quality in other brands.
    They have lowered it to $40 now. Forced me to buy one

  66. #66
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    Deuter with Aircomfort system is the best! No more sweaty back.

    Backpacks - Deuter Sport GmbH & Co. KG

  67. #67
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    I have both an Osprey syncros 10 and a camelbak Rogue. One has a larger bladder and more cargo room and costs more, so they serve different purposes. One is a minimalist pack and the other is more epic-ready.

    But I can say this:

    The osprey helmet retention system is sweet.
    The osprey magnetic bite valve is awesome.
    The osprey build quality is great.
    The osprey looks awesome.

    The camelback "quick-link" system is essential for quickly removing the bladder from the pack for filling, emptying, and storing. This is a critical feature to me.

    The camelbak bladder "legs" which hold the bladder open for air-drying - works great and pretty much eliminates the possibility of growth in the bladder. This is a critical feature to me.

    Camelbak Build quality and looks are adequate.

    The lack of a magnetic bite valve is noticeable, as the valve hangs and bangs your leg when climbing. You get used to this annoyance, however.

    The camelbak bite valve seems simpler and less prone to growth - seems to flow better too.


    Overall, the osprey seems like a pretty Lexus with nice bells and whistles, and the camelbak like a Subaru STI - more cheaply made, not as pretty and a bit more spartan, but dead-on efficient and functional in doing exactly what you need it to do.
    Last edited by Stumpjumpy; 10-16-2012 at 07:45 AM.
    '95 M2 StumpJumper FS
    '11 Cannondale RZ 120-two

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