Helmet law- Mtbr.com

View Poll Results: Has your helmet ever saved you from injury?

Voters
94. This poll is closed
  • Positively prevented injury to skull

    64 68.09%
  • might have

    16 17.02%
  • caused injury due to poor visibility from visor etc.

    0 0%
  • It has never helped

    14 14.89%
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Thread: Helmet law

  1. #1
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    Helmet law

    So today at starr passs I was puffing along the valley floor and it was getting warm. I rememberd the post up here 'bout helmets and said "screw it helmets are dumb". SO I TOOK IT OFF! and stuck it in my Camel back. IT FELT GREAT! anyways Guess What the first thing out of the first person I saw was? Get a Helmet. But he wispered it all sneaky like. I thought HAHAHAHA NO I WONT! and rode on.

    I dont think I will wear it anymore cause as I think back over my 15 year career on a bike, I've endoed maybe five times, none of those times did I hit my head. I ve messed up my knees, elbows, shoulder, wrist foot but never my head. It aint gonna help if you get hit by a car. You gonna be a bag of meat. Falling? not unless you go totally head down on a pointy rock.I am betting the face gets more trauma than the skull. I think that they give you a false sense of safety and may cause you to try to ride stuff you shouldn't.

    Who has had a helmet save them from a skull fracture?

  2. #2
    Meatbomb
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    enjoy your head wound .

  3. #3
    "Yabut"
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    Wear it, or don't wear it. I don't care. It's a mostly free country. But mine saved my life. Ya'll might remember this.....

    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...light=coast+to
    ~Aaron~
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  4. #4
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    mkay, helmet+body armour=riding beyond skill level(group ride+pushing personal limits)

    do the math

  5. #5
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    I look at it like a seat belt, I wear the belt every drive no matter what. To this day the belt has not helped me but if I get in an accident I know I’ll have a better chance.

    You wear a helmet for the accident. You don’t know when the accident will happen.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl
    mkay, helmet+body armour=riding beyond skill level(group ride+pushing personal limits)

    do the math
    Dude, you are doing the fuzzy math kind-o-math.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  7. #7

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    Your head, your choice. My head gets a bucket...

  8. #8
    Nerdy Jock
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    Well helmets are designed to protect brains, so if you don't have a brain, why bother?

    My first major crash was on a not-so-steep downhill road.. I was like 11 years old (so 5 years ago). Went over my handlebars and landed on the hard street mostly head first. My helmet was the first thing to touch the ground, and it's finish shows - there is a big black spot where it is supposed to be silver. That and it even broke part of the foam inside.

    Without the helmet I woulda hit my head HARD.

  9. #9
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    On the upside, if you ever do get really hurt from not wearing it, you'll get all the primo parking spaces.
    .....

  10. #10
    Fragile - must be Italian
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    I firmly believe a helmet should be worn at all times, no matter how you ride. I've broken 3 helmets going OTB on trails just tooling along...riding well below my skill level...but happened to be careless.

    It's your brain and your decision. I'm all for people doing what they want as long as they can afford the repercussions. So if you end up in the hospital with a head injury, I hope you can pay for it -- don't ask me or any other tax payer to cover your injuries. Ditto with any motorcycle rider who goes helmet-less or a car driver who chooses not to wear a seat belt.

    Thx...Doug

  11. #11
    Just Joshin' ya!
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    Are we still playing the trolling game?

    You know what they say about people who don't wear helmets, they don't have much to protect.
    Getting a dropper post is like getting a bidet. I didn't know I needed one until I get one and boy, does my ass thank me.

  12. #12
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by dgangi
    It's your brain and your decision. I'm all for people doing what they want as long as they can afford the repercussions. So if you end up in the hospital with a head injury, I hope you can pay for it -- don't ask me or any other tax payer to cover your injuries. Ditto with any motorcycle rider who goes helmet-less or a car driver who chooses not to wear a seat belt.

    Thx...Doug
    +1!
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMPhi767
    Are we still playing the trolling game? .
    +1

    If you ride back from the edge of your skillset far enough to not ever need a helmet (or armor) you might want to change the ggnarl handle

  14. #14
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    On bicycles, I've only ever worn a helmet in competition. Motorcycles and race cars are a different story.

    I won't ride a bike anywhere without first putting on my padded gloves.

    Dave
    http://www.roadsters.com/

  15. #15
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    I think I would be using those special parking spots or not even driving if not for my trusty Specialized helmet. Last year I was tooling along at a mellow pace on the west end of the Classic. I clipped my pedal on a rock which flung me down on the ground and I hit my head so hard on a rock that I laid there for 5 mins before even moving, seeing stars...I was seeing planets! The outside of my helmet is dented and the foam is cracked inside. No helmet would have been ugly on this one.

    Plus came down Beverly from the Classic over to the jeep road and went off the trail and ran into a tree and hit my helmet dead on a branch causing a small dent in the front which would have been a couple of stiches. Thanks helmet!

    Probably time for a new one!
    Last edited by BritMtnBiker; 08-17-2008 at 07:42 AM.

  16. #16

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    i always wear mine, even if im just riding to my friends. it recently save me from brain damage, although i got a concussion, the doctors said if i wasnt wearing it i would have brain damage for life

  17. #17
    Ride Responsibly
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    Helmet good, law bad.

  18. #18
    Master Gardener
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    Quote Originally Posted by LWright
    Helmet good, law bad.
    Yeah, that ^ ^ ^

    Helmet smart; Law retarded.

    My worst head blow came when I was doing about 2 mph offroad 15 years or so ago. I went under a tree I didn't see and the stub of a limb about the size of a pinky finger and 1.5" long sticking out. Hit the tree/stub so hard it knocked me to the ground before I even saw it.

    Luckily I was wearing a helmet (if a Bell Image Pro circa 1990 can be considered a helmet) or I would have had quite the puncture wound in my skull and probably brain. (The helmet had a big hole and my scalp just a laceration.)

    2 MPH is a really silly way to get brain damage. Shark attack or base jumping accident sounds so much cooler.

    Greg

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by LWright
    Helmet good, law bad.
    well said....my thoughts as well but why risk it. I wear mine and it has save my life.
    here read Slicebacks story then do as you wish.
    http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=111566

    Cheers, Billy
    Darwin was an Optimist

  20. #20
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    Never smashed my helmet but it has saved me from several tree branches.
    Bicycle club organized rides won't let you ride along, helmet mandatory.
    agmtb

  21. #21
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    I definitely wear my helmet - I can't imagine riding without it!

    It did save my life - I had crashed and slammed my head onto the pavement, smashing the helmet.

  22. #22
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    The point of my post was to have people examine their helmet use and realize that it does not provide much more safety. This guy sliceback didn't fracture his skull, and while a helmet might of reduced his injury, he would still be very messed up. My co-workers son was riding his cheap huffy off a curb when the forks collapsed. Again, no skull fracture, but horrible face,spine, and other injury. Biking can be dangerous, and I think that HOW you ride is the best indicator of what type of injury you might sustain. I love technical stuff, drops, ledges, chutes and the like. I know that there is risk of severe injury, but I ride it anyway. A helmet might reduce the severity of skull injury, but what about the rest of your body? I rely on my experience as a rider to keep me safe, my helmet is merely backup.

    After all this will I wear my helmet? Yes, but Ill also take it off on long hot climbs, road rides and nontechnical stuff.

  23. #23
    "Yabut"
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl
    A helmet might reduce the severity of skull injury, but what about the rest of your body?
    Because you are most likely not going to DIE if the rest of your body gets bloodied and broken.
    ~Aaron~
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  24. #24
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    Take it off, wear it, do whatever you like. Do society a favor and become an organ donor, though. Personally, I wear mine 100% of the time, but I don't really even notice it's there.
    d

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LWright
    Helmet good, law bad.
    I'll thro in a on this one...

    1st - the law doesn't affect anyone over 18 (except maybe a parent). You're old enough to make a decision yourself. I agree with the comments above to do what you want so long as you can pay for the repercussions. Me, I've only *used* a helmet once, and it was a stupid, unexpected crash... I wouldn't be riding today probably if I weren't wearing... or I'd be riding 4-wheels.

    2nd - It protects kids, as they will generally make bad decisions first, then learn from their experiences. Plus, there are so many parents out there that need a little boost to do "what's right". If there's even a few who are out there that say "I woudn't buy you a helmet, but it's against the law if I don't, so let's go get a helmet", then the law has done it's job.

    3rd - It's really not enforced, so does it *really* make a difference? Generally, when a cop *does* enforce the law, it's a wash if it makes a parent go out and get a helmet (when the law first went into effect, instead of tickets, they gave out a coupon for a free helmet - now, they will waive the fine if you show you've bought a helmet).

    4th - There are *so many* opportunities to get a free helmet, it's not like this only benefits the manufacturers.

    Using the seatbelt analogy (again, above), I don't hear anyone complaining *that* law as bad...

    While I prefer less government intervention, I don't mind if laws try to fill the gap for stupidity.

  26. #26
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    the helmet law i was referring to is every time you ride a mtb on a trail people harass you nonstop. Have you ever rolled down your window and told a motorist "hey, wear a seatbelt!"? BTW I always wear a seatbelt.

    Also even though helmet use has gone way up, cyclist brain injurys have not gone down, in fact total bicycle ridership has gone down some say because of compulsory helmet use.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl
    the helmet law i was referring to is every time you ride a mtb on a trail people harass you nonstop. Have you ever rolled down your window and told a motorist "hey, wear a seatbelt!"? BTW I always wear a seatbelt.

    Also even though helmet use has gone way up, cyclist brain injurys have not gone down, in fact total bicycle ridership has gone down some say because of compulsory helmet use.
    whatever. have fun. Yes mine saved me falling sideways off the top line of Bermuda Triangle a few months ago on National, hitting the side of my head into the rock on the other side of the slot. And many many branches on almost every ride. I don't doubt you have bike skills, but maybe not people skills for trail sharing if you let stupid comments get you so torqued.
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  28. #28
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    Agreed, I'm always ducking down letting branches deflect on my helmet. Don't think I would really care to use the top on my head as a battering ram. For me trail riding is an opportunity for enjoyment! I don't let dogs, hikers, kids, riders or anything else bother me while I'm riding.
    Mayo Clinic Phx. Kidney TX 06-20-2019

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl
    So today at starr passs I was puffing along the valley floor and it was getting warm. I rememberd the post up here 'bout helmets and said "screw it helmets are dumb". SO I TOOK IT OFF! and stuck it in my Camel back. IT FELT GREAT! anyways Guess What the first thing out of the first person I saw was? Get a Helmet. But he wispered it all sneaky like. I thought HAHAHAHA NO I WONT! and rode on.
    Is this mainly the result of riding in the year-round-riding climate of phoenix? Would you do the same if you lived somewhere else and you weren't sweating water like a fountain? Because I could sure understand it, but I wouldn't do it. Kind of part of the price you pay riding in that climate. Deal with it.

    I have no problem with not having helmet laws, but the problem is that other laws are not set up to prevent lawsuits. If there were laws that kept people from suing local municipalities, business owners, and so forth, then we could not have helmet laws, but you can't just not have the laws, because then we get sued into oblivion by family members and other people acting on the deceased or brain-dead's "behalf". Not to mention the issue of emergency services and who pays for it. Are you going to just walk past someone who has suffered a head injury and think, "well, they weren't wearing a helmet, so screw them". So we have to call out emergency services and the such, and then who pays for this? But wait, I thought it was a "personal choice" not to wear a helmet? That line is one of the biggest peices of BS out there, because that "choice" affects all sorts of people you know and do not know, it affects health care, it affects lawsuits, it affects the design and layout of roads and other things. So you just can't rescind one law when the rest of the system and society is set up to operate in a certain way.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  30. #30
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    I'm very glad I wear a helmet, and I've replaced maybe 6 in 15 years that have been mangled due to a wreck. That could've been my head.

    I'm also very glad there aren't any laws requiring I wear a helmet, because I'm stupidly antiauthoritarian sometimes.

    I also wear a helmet on my road bike, esp. if I'm doing good speed (20mph+) on a well-traveled street (Baseline, 48th, Pecos, etc.). I think the only time I don't wear a helmet on my bike is on a canal ride, or a short back-street pedal to a store or something.

    p.
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  31. #31
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    I want to be clear that I don't support any sort of helmet law, either on bikes or motos. Much like I don't support seatbelt laws. I'm all for Darwin running its course. Jayem's post is well-spoken, though, and accurate.

    If you should be injured due to your own negligence, you right to sue should be forfeit and all medical expenses your responsibility.
    d

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by wurensh
    Using the seatbelt analogy (again, above), I don't hear anyone complaining *that* law as bad...

    While I prefer less government intervention, I don't mind if laws try to fill the gap for stupidity.
    Agreed. I have some more points to add as follows:

    1. Other than helmet laws, there are so many other much more significant government actions and/or laws that are compromising individual freedoms. These laws and actions are being promoted and/or are supported by the same folks that whine and complain about helmet laws and how they take away our personal freedoms. These people need to get a clue and put things in perspective. Helmet laws have very little to do with real and meaningful personal freedom.

    2. Sorry Doug and Tim, I am just tired of the "don't ask me or any other tax payer to cover your injuries" take on all this. As with the personal freedom issue above, how medical treatment and so on is paid for is really a non-issue. Even if head injuries result in individuals having to pay more in taxes, a conclusion I don't really agree with, the amount per person is de minimus compared to a multitude of things that really do have a meaningful impact on each of of own "pockets."

    3. The "helmets encourage riders to ride less safe" argument is a total bag-o-sh!te. It does nothing on this issue and in my mind lowers the credibility of the person making the argument.

    4. Sometimes things are really very simple but people don't keep it that way. Common sense tells me that helmets are good and the only real drawback is POSSIBLY some minor discomfort.

    5. Since it really is that simple, and helmets are good, why shouldn't there be helmet laws. The people that always wear helmets but are opposed to helmet laws baffle me.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  33. #33
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    I took 2 major falls when I was younger (mid-1980's), both with out helmets. I stall have a scar on my face to prove it. I won't ride with out a helmet, or ski with out one for that matter.

    It is personal choice, and people will heckle you when they see you with out one on the trail. If you feel strongly about your decision not to ride with one, stand by your convictions and hope you don't get hurt.

    I agree that we don't need a law mandating helmet use, I am on the Darwin side of the argument on this one. Someone mentioned telling other motorist to wear seatbelts. I don't go that far when it is an adult, but I have rolled down the window to ask whey toddlers are bouncing around the back seat or a car, completely unrestrained. There was a language barrier, so I never got a response, just a puzzled look and a half smile.

  34. #34
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    Geoff what I'm agreeing with is sometimes we have to take responsibly for our own actions! Not rely on others to pay for them! If someone selects to partake is a risky behavior. I don't see why it is my responsibility to pay for such a personal choice. You may not agree with this view! But I'm entitled to it as you are yours.

    If I sit around and eat Snickers all day knowing I have diabetes. While eating such item will make my condition worse! Is it your responsibility to pay all my expense's? If so the companies Humana invoice is due the 1st of every month.

    I don't think we need to mandate a use of a helmet. But a little common sense never hurts! Come to think of it, I'm also not going to be riding barefoot!
    Mayo Clinic Phx. Kidney TX 06-20-2019

  35. #35
    Meatbomb
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    I just like how goofy I look in mine

  36. #36
    "Yabut"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant
    If you should be injured due to your own negligence, your right to sue should be forfeit, and all medical expenses your responsibility.
    d

    The problem with your view is, where do you draw the line at negligence?? Is somebody negligent for eating a Big Mac at lunch time? Everyone knows that is unhealthy. So yes, eating a Big Mac is negligence. So 20 years from now, when Mr. Big Mac Eater is having a heart attack, he should have to pay for his own hospital stay, instead of being able to use his health insurance??? Should big brother watch every single thing we do, to make sure we do NOTHING to our bodies that is negligent? Under your view, only people with genetic problems could ever use health care.
    ~Aaron~
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  37. #37
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    Dude, you're taking an offhand comment and drawing a not-totally-logical conclusion from it. Is it negligent for a fit 180-pound mountain biker w/ 10% body fat and low cholesterol to eat a Big Mac? Probably not.

    As I said, if you make a choice that has a dire outcome on your future, it's not society's fault and society (not your insurance company) should not bear the burden.

  38. #38
    "Yabut"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant
    Dude, you're taking an offhand comment and drawing a not-totally-logical conclusion from it. Is it negligent for a fit 180-pound mountain biker w/ 10% body fat and low cholesterol to eat a Big Mac? Probably not.

    As I said, if you make a choice that has a dire outcome on your future, it's not society's fault and society (not your insurance company) should not bear the burden.

    You're missing the point. My point is, where do you draw the line at what is negligence? What's negligent to one person, may not be to another. Many many people would say riding your bike on Desert Classic would be negligence. How many times have you ridden by some hikers, and they call you crazy for riding a certain section of trail. WHO chooses what is dangerous behavior? As soon as you start to "classify" activities, the sooner your freedoms disappear.
    ~Aaron~
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  39. #39
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    Oh, no, I understand your point completely. Fortunately we have politicians and lawyers to draw lines; the rest of us are free to whine about it on the Internet

  40. #40
    "Yabut"
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    hahaha, exactly. Well, the politicians and lawyers DO know what's best for us, afterall.
    ~Aaron~
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  41. #41
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    My friend can't taste or smell anything, almost died!!!

    Friend of mine crashed riding a pavement section between trails. No helmet. Stopped breathing, and heart stopped. Only thing saved him was right after he fell an ambulance came around the corner on their way to a Rainbow group festival. They shocked him 3 times and called a helicopter since it was a long way to town.

    He lived, but can't taste or smell pizza, or beer after a ride. Think about that.

    Oh yeah, he wears a helmet now!!

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyBike'sBroken
    You're missing the point. My point is, where do you draw the line at what is negligence? What's negligent to one person, may not be to another. Many many people would say riding your bike on Desert Classic would be negligence. How many times have you ridden by some hikers, and they call you crazy for riding a certain section of trail. WHO chooses what is dangerous behavior? As soon as you start to "classify" activities, the sooner your freedoms disappear.
    This is exactly on point. By their own logic, the "personal responsibility" folks should not ride bikes at all, even with a helmet, unless they pledge to pay for all their medical bills 100% themselves without using health insurance of any kind. Unfortunately, the only thing these people seem to be able to see is how another's behavior affects them, even if such behavior really does not affect them at all. And they think I am an all "me, me, me" person.

    Personal responsibilty is virtually a meaningless "buzzword" phrase like "taxes", "tough on crime", "just say no" and all the rest of this kind of jibberish. I say these people need to take personal responsibility for their over emphasis on personal responsibility.
    I AM JUST A JERK

  43. #43
    Wait, what!?
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    I just dont understand how riding with it off can really be THAT much better, especially while climbing. I have only had a real "need" for my helmet once (total wad up) and like most others that have really needed theirs, I would probably be blowing bubbles right now if it wasnt on.

    I wear bicycle specific Fox baggies, with the padded insert, so my butt doesnt hurt as bad. I wear motocross gloves with the hard plastic over the knuckles so my hands have a lower chance of getting hurt (or even broken I guess) if they smack a tree sticking out in the trail. I always wear glasses, so I can see. I never go without a shirt to protect my sexy torso from small scratches or sharp rocks. My helmet stays on my head at all times when the wheels are rotating on the trail too. I will admit though, that if I STOP at the top of a hill, or in a shady area to rest, I will sometimes take it off. Only sometimes though, and thats mostly to scratch my head.

    Its just part of my garb, and I dont think anything of it, being up there. My head gets hot, just like my feet, hands, and ass do. I deal with it because Im willing to in order to ride my bicycle. I have also been known to say something to riders on the trail with out a helmet on, too. Maybe its because I am a picky little biotch, or maybe its because I actually care about others, and would hate for them to get seriously hurt simply because they were not wearing a skid lid. Its ok to look out for others, but its also ok to do whatever the eff you want. All one can do is offer advise. Its up to the other end to make the final decision.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant
    Fortunately we have politicians and lawyers to draw lines; the rest of us are free to whine about it on the Internet
    and if you follow those lines of the criminales--or i mean / "lawyers and politicians" -------you are sheep ------and you deserve the screwing that you get.

    but however , one should wear the protective gear if he wants to live and ride another day ,

    i would be dead many times over if it were not for a helmet ----------each to his own

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    This is exactly on point. By their own logic, the "personal responsibility" folks should not ride bikes at all, even with a helmet, unless they pledge to pay for all their medical bills 100% themselves without using health insurance of any kind. Unfortunately, the only thing these people seem to be able to see is how another's behavior affects them, even if such behavior really does not affect them at all. And they think I am an all "me, me, me" person.

    Personal responsibilty is virtually a meaningless "buzzword" phrase like "taxes", "tough on crime", "just say no" and all the rest of this kind of jibberish. I say these people need to take personal responsibility for their over emphasis on personal responsibility.
    Wearing a helmet is a personal choice and should remain a personal choice as there is no good data or hard facts to say whether wearing an XC type helmet will be of any benefit in a crash. All we have is belief and opinions and a lot of BS stories of how a 'helmet saved my life.' The classic being that folks will point to a broken helmet as some sort of evidence that it saved them from a broken skull, whereas the helmet actually failed and fractured and failed to absorb much energy at all. The day insurance companies begin to talk about personal neglect and limiting liability due to lack of a helmet will be a sad day indeed.

    If we were really serious about avoiding head injury we'd be all wearing DH or full face hard shell type helmets.

    Oh, I do offroad with a XC type helmet 'cos I like helmet hair and I do believe a helmet does offer some limited and superficial protection.

  46. #46
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    You can't put a cast on Brain Damage, you're just retarded for the rest of your life. My wife and son would be pissed if they had to take care of a tater who wouldn't wear his helmet because it felt better...
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  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by marzjennings
    there is no good data or hard facts to say whether wearing an XC type helmet will be of any benefit in a crash.
    your kidding right ???--------i know different and so does the rest of the world .--

    you just keep on thinking a helmet no matter how light, does nothing .--------i hope your donner card is correctly filled out !!

  48. #48
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    Guys, just a quick reminder: I'm all for having hotbutton topics up for discussion but please, please keep it civil.

    p.
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  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelstr
    your kidding right ???--------i know different and so does the rest of the world .--

    you just keep on thinking a helmet no matter how light, does nothing .--------i hope your donner card is correctly filled out !!
    You 'know different', great, please post up some links to where you've found some real data that shows how a light XC type helmet can save you from brain damage. I am always willing to proven wrong.

    Otherwise you 'believe' differently to me and that is all. And I didn't say a helmet does nothing, I believe it may help, but not to the extent of preventing brain damage or death.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by marzjennings
    You 'know different', great, please post up some links to where you've found some real data that shows how a light XC type helmet can save you from brain damage. I am always willing to proven wrong.

    Otherwise you 'believe' differently to me and that is all. And I didn't say a helmet does nothing, I believe it may help, but not to the extent of preventing brain damage or death.

    The survey on this thread shows a 5:1 ratio of riders who have been spared head injuries by their helmets. Official poll or not...almost 50 of us are providing data points. I'm not sure I understand how you can disregard that and say you've seen no data?

    do what you want, and believe what you want - its a free country. Just don't use my tax dollars or insurance premiums for it.
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  51. #51
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    Crashed so hard once on my head I was unconsious for a few seconds. Well, I am pretty sure it was only a few seconds. Who knows what would have happened without a helmet.

    What scares me more than not dying is living with a severe head injury. Sometimes the lucky people are the ones who die.

  52. #52
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    My helmet saved me from a trip to the hospital just last week.

    35mph, OTB head first crash. Don't remember the majority of Sunday, Monday, Tuesday but it would have been a lot worse without a helmet at all or even with a XC lid.

    And just to add, my helmet is DOT certified full face, not just some little squid lid.

    With the amount of times in the past my helmets have saved me from major head trauma, I just keep buying better and better helmets each time and will happily do so to keep myself from becoming a piece of broccoli.

    If you really feel wearing a helmet imposes on your personal freedoms somehow, then you already have a few screws loose and probably do some of the following also.

    •Refuse to wear condoms
    •Refuse to wear seatbelts
    •Poke/torment rattlesnakes for "fun"
    •Carry your gun inside your pants waist because holsters are "too bulky"

    Might not be today, might not be tomorrow, but Darwin's a coming. Please fill out your donor card in full.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    The survey on this thread shows a 5:1 ratio of riders who have been spared head injuries by their helmets. Official poll or not...almost 50 of us are providing data points. I'm not sure I understand how you can disregard that and say you've seen no data?

    do what you want, and believe what you want - its a free country. Just don't use my tax dollars or insurance premiums for it.
    What data? 50 riders expressing an opinion is not data that qualifies whether the helmet did any good or not. Did they all go back and repeat the crash without a helmet to see if did make any difference? No, they didn't, 'cos they're not crazy. All we have is 'I think this' or 'you think that'. The standards by which helmets are certified fall well below real world forces that, I think, exist during the average mtb crash, yet y'all think that by some magic these helmets are able to perform beyond their manufactured limitations.

    Like I said, I do wear one for the limited protection I think it can offer and I pray a helmet could save my life, but I don't expect it to as there's no data to suggest it could.

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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    The survey on this thread shows a 5:1 ratio of riders who have been spared head injuries by their helmets. Official poll or not...almost 50 of us are providing data points. I'm not sure I understand how you can disregard that and say you've seen no data?

    do what you want, and believe what you want - its a free country. Just don't use my tax dollars or insurance premiums for it.
    My undeniable Devil's Advocate urge says that all the data is showing is that the vast majority of us believe helmets are protecting us. I remember reading something interesting that suggested helmets might actually, maybe, lead one to ride further out of their comfort zone...leading to even more injuries.

    All that said, I won't ride singletrack w/o a helmet. I have been known to ride up fire roads without, though. The big honking grind up Pinal Mountain? Helmet comes off.

    I think your second point is really a good one, though: our "personal choices" and "freedoms" have far-reaching impacts on everyone: insurance premiums, taxes, etc. Of course, if we really gave a crap about the greater good, we'd outlaw alcohol and tobacco.

    p.
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by marzjennings
    What data? 50 riders expressing an opinion is not data that qualifies whether the helmet did any good or not. Did they all go back and repeat the crash without a helmet to see if did make any difference? No, they didn't, 'cos they're not crazy. All we have is 'I think this' or 'you think that'. The standards by which helmets are certified fall well below real world forces that, I think, exist during the average mtb crash, yet y'all think that by some magic these helmets are able to perform beyond their manufactured limitations.

    Like I said, I do wear one for the limited protection I think it can offer and I pray a helmet could save my life, but I don't expect it to as there's no data to suggest it could.

    we both agree its a personal choice. vaya con dios, amigo.
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike=good
    boink back at you...

    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1027.html

  58. #58
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    I pretty much always wear an excessive amount of gear including a helmet.

    One time I forgot my helmet but chose to ride anyway.

    I was most impressed with how much cooling capacity my head had without my helmet. Luckily I did not crash or I might not have been as impressed.

    PS: my understanding of the data is that a helmet keeps a mild crash from being a total disaster, but they are not as helpful in severe head bonk situations.

    I look at helmets and pads as easy insurance for the stupid, crashes we all have for no reason at low speeds.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by marzjennings
    What data? 50 riders expressing an opinion is not data that qualifies whether the helmet did any good or not. Did they all go back and repeat the crash without a helmet to see if did make any difference? No, they didn't, 'cos they're not crazy. All we have is 'I think this' or 'you think that'. The standards by which helmets are certified fall well below real world forces that, I think, exist during the average mtb crash, yet y'all think that by some magic these helmets are able to perform beyond their manufactured limitations.

    Like I said, I do wear one for the limited protection I think it can offer and I pray a helmet could save my life, but I don't expect it to as there's no data to suggest it could.
    I don't need any stinking evidence except the fact that you and the OP, both anti-helmet people, readily admit you ride with helmets. The proof is in the pie so to speak.

    In addition, you have no evidence for your own above statements. In fact, you explicity state "I think" as you spew out alleged facts.
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  60. #60
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    "-The "typical" bicyclist killed on our roads is a sober male over 16 not wearing a helmet riding on a major road between intersections in an urban area on a summer evening when hit by a car."

    Helmets are not the issue, sobriety kills

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    I don't need any stinking evidence except the fact that you and the OP, both anti-helmet people, readily admit you ride with helmets. The proof is in the pie so to speak.

    In addition, you have no evidence for your own above statements. In fact, you explicity state "I think" as you spew out alleged facts.

    Also isn't most the data presented on these "stats" sites mostly reflect the casual cyclist, bicycle commuter and road riders? I can see the chance of not hitting your head if you fall on the road, but on a mountain trail full of trees and rocks I would expect the stats to be a little different. Where is the differentiation between the two different environments reflected?

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    My undeniable Devil's Advocate urge says that all the data is showing is that the vast majority of us believe helmets are protecting us. I remember reading something interesting that suggested helmets might actually, maybe, lead one to ride further out of their comfort zone...leading to even more injuries.
    This entire debate was played over and over again on the Passion board a couple years ago. There were a handful of frequent posters who whenever anybody would comment on how a helmet saved them from serious injury or death, they would jump all over him/her asking that person to prove the helment saved them. Eventually, this exact comment would be made, how helmets might actually cause somebody to ride beyond their means.

    Mt biking is a dangerous sport, and no one piece of equipment can guarantee one's safety. Other than the suggestion made above--in which case, it's not the helmet companies fault if somebody rides above their means--I'm not sure what the disadvantage to wearing a helmet is.

    Me, personally, I always wear it on the trail, and when I used to road ride, I'd wear it then. However, I never wear it when I'm on the cruiser.
    Nobody gives a s#$t you singlespeed.

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    Although my helmet has not saved me from brain damage, I have seen it firsthand save a friend from major trauma. All it took was a minor bit of sand at the bottom of a dip for the front wheel to lock up and he went otb head first into the opposite wall. Helmet was cracked in half, from a chisel looking rock sticking out of the dirt. This was a training class for new riders, so he wasn't bombing down National, we were tooling aroung on DC..... Good enough for me to never ride without a helmet after that.

  64. #64
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    I always ride with a helmet, even though it's never saved my life (or even prevented minor injury). I also tend to do most of my riding inside my comfort zone. My personal opinion is that it's not worth the risk to something that is very important to me (my mind) to ride without a helmet.

    Then again, I was also the guy who wore boots, pants, gloves, armor and a full face helmet 12 months a year for almost 7 years on motorcycles in Phoenix and Tucson.

    I know it's not logical, but I'm absolutely convinced that the universe is laying in wait for that one day I skip the helmet or don't wear my seatbelt to teach me a nasty lesson. I'm probably jinxing myself, but I've never been in a car or motorcycle accident or had a major (ie, hospitalizing) wreck on a bicycle. I would suspect that luck has a lot to do with those stats, but I can probably take some credit for my safety record.

    I do think that if you're frequently taking unnecessary risks of any sort, you should be kind enough to be a registered organ donor. I knew more than one person who would still be alive today if a matching organ had been available at the right time.

  65. #65
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    It's all a bunch of anecdotal "evidence." Same real-world rules apply: If you want to wear it, do; if you don't, then don't. I personally don't find a good-fitting helmet to be uncomfortable and if there's the slightest chance it'll save my melon from disaster, well, hell, I'll wear it.
    d

  66. #66
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    It's harder to replace your head than a helmet...

    Statistics from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety
    Fatality Facts: Bicycles - 2006

    Bicycle Deaths by Helmet Use
    1994-2006
    Year No Helmet Helmet Total*
    1994 776 (97%) 19 (2%) 796
    1995 783 (95%) 34 (4%) 828
    1996 731 (96%) 27 (4%) 761
    1997 785 (97%) 23 (3%) 811
    1998 741 (98%) 16 (2%) 757
    1999 698 (93%) 42 (6%) 750
    2000 622 (90%) 50 (7%) 689
    2001 616 (84%) 60 (8%) 729
    2002 589 (89%) 54 (8%) 663
    2003 535 (85%) 58 (9%) 626
    2004 602 (83%) 87 (12%) 722
    2005 676 (86%) 77 (10%) 784
    2006 730 (95%) 37 (5%) 770
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  67. #67
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    I will continue to wear my helmet, and think other people should also, especially new riders. But I think as previously stated that like ABS brakes, airbags etc, helmets cause as many accidents as they protect due to the perception of increased safety. And if people are made aware of this fact, they might ride a little more safely.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl
    I will continue to wear my helmet, and think other people should also, especially new riders. But I think as previously stated that like ABS brakes, airbags etc, helmets cause as many accidents as they protect due to the perception of increased safety. And if people are made aware of this fact, they might ride a little more safely.
    Huh? Are you now suggesting airbags don't safe lives?
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  69. #69
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    I think ggnarl is just trying very hard to justify a decision he's not fully comfortable with.

    It sounds like he's still going to wear his helmet most of the time, but when he feels that comfort outweighs safety he'll go without his helmet.

    This is a lawful option in this state, and there is nothing wrong with it. Much like with choosing to smoke, his actions will come with risks that are difficult to accurately measure.

    In my opinion, I'm safer with my helmet on, even if I'm just grinding out a long fireroad climb. I just don't feel that wearing a helmet is very onerous.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B

    All that said, I won't ride singletrack w/o a helmet. I have been known to ride up fire roads without, though. The big honking grind up Pinal Mountain? Helmet comes off.

    I think your second point is really a good one, though: our "personal choices" and "freedoms" have far-reaching impacts on everyone: insurance premiums, taxes, etc. Of course, if we really gave a crap about the greater good, we'd outlaw alcohol and tobacco.

    p.
    That's why I drive with my helmet too.
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  71. #71
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    hey good people! this has been a fun thread. for the record, i wear my helmet . not because of any law, but because i want to see my kids grow up. also, and this hasn't been brought up yet, i wear a skull bowl not just to protect my noggin, but also to protect the trail.
    what do i mean? the more serious injury and death that occur on a trail, the more likely that trail will end up being restricted or even closed to mt. biking. sometimes we think our actions only affect ourselves, but most often thats not the case. any one who rode atc's back in the day saw how injuries and deaths led to legislation against the manufacture of those vehicles. the same thing can happen to our faithful mt. bikes. so i think the helmet issue is more about being responsible than being comfortable. O BE WISE, what more can i say.

  72. #72
    sixsixtysix
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl
    But I think as previously stated that like ABS brakes, airbags etc, helmets cause as many accidents as they protect due to the perception of increased safety.
    I agree, which is why airbags need to be replaced with a large stainless steel spike that shoots out of the steering wheel towards the driver in the event of an accident.

    For the first year that this change would be implemented there would be a large increase in auto related deaths, followed by a sharp decrease as people learned that they would be painfully punished for driving like such a-holes as well as the person in the other car and vice versa.

  73. #73
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    An interesting thread for sure. I usually wear my helmet, which is a skate lid BTW. It's really hot but I don't mind. I don't wear my helmet when I'm just goofing around or riding on back roads for short distances.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    Huh? Are you now suggesting airbags don't safe lives?
    Course they save lives, Duh! But also increase percieved safety and as a result higher speed...blah blah blah...

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl
    helmets cause as many accidents as they protect due to the perception of increased safety. And if people are made aware of this fact, they might ride a little more safely.
    Having a hard time with this line of thinking
    Have you ever, or ever witnessed anyone else ride over their ability simply because they (you) had a helmet on? I can't ever remember looking at a section of trail that was obviously at the limits of my ability and thinking "what the h3ll I've got a helmet on, I'm going for it".

  76. #76
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    I think all you need is for your helmet to save your life once and your sold for life. . . for lack of a better word. If not, look up natural selection.

  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by azjeff
    Having a hard time with this line of thinking
    Have you ever, or ever witnessed anyone else ride over their ability simply because they (you) had a helmet on? I can't ever remember looking at a section of trail that was obviously at the limits of my ability and thinking "what the h3ll I've got a helmet on, I'm going for it".
    Look at it from the other side of the equation. Think about the fastest, gnarliest piece of trail you've ever ridden. Now imagine riding it without a helmet.

    p.
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  78. #78
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    Enduro. . . Full Face and climbing. . . pretty not cool. IMO. Plus for my giant sized noggin the mask is so close to me mouth that Im not getting a whole lot of fresh air.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    Look at it from the other side of the equation. Think about the fastest, gnarliest piece of trail you've ever ridden. Now imagine riding it without a helmet.

    p.
    Exactly.

    ggnarl, were you referring to A/M, freeride, DH type riders who wear a full face and armor feeling safer and taking more chances? That makes more sense than a typical wimpy xc trail rider type going large because he's got his lid on. Although it seems like the fact that that equipment is being strapped on means the rider is planning on doing things that have a fair probability of death and dismemberment.

  80. #80
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    No helmet on easy stuff???

    I am not sure about the idea of not wearing a helmet on "easy" stuff. Easy stuff often involves a fair amount of speed combined with a less than razor-sharp attention. The worst fall I ever took was on easy stuff when I wasn't paying quite enough attention to what I was doing.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by bweide
    I am not sure about the idea of not wearing a helmet on "easy" stuff. Easy stuff often involves a fair amount of speed combined with a less than razor-sharp attention. The worst fall I ever took was on easy stuff when I wasn't paying quite enough attention to what I was doing.
    perfect post bruddah! my experience of 11.5 years of riding the trail has yielded the same results. higher speeds combined with lame brain concentration = perfect recipe for soil sampling. remember, disaster happens when you least expect it.

  82. #82
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    You'll be glad to know there are plenty of support groups you can join when you have long lasting effects from your head injury.

    I'd rather lose a limb than damage my brain. Good luck.

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl
    The point of my post was to have people examine their helmet use and realize that it does not provide much more safety. After all this will I wear my helmet? Yes, but Ill also take it off on long hot climbs, road rides and nontechnical stuff.
    Wear it, don't wear it...it's your brain. Road? Pavement cracks a mean noggin.

    I managed a mountain bike touring company for several years. We'd take as many as 800people on tours PER WEEK in a five month season. You bet many of them beefed it. By the end of the season we'd have a nice collection of helmets with big dents, scratches and cracks. Better to have damaged helmets than damaged skulls.

  84. #84
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    So it occurs to me I have absolutely no idea what to take away from the survey results.

    p.
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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    So it occurs to me I have absolutely no idea what to take away from the survey results.

    p.

    69% have smacked their noggin really hard and saw stars
    17% have smacked it hard enough to say hmm...that coulda hurt
    14% ride the canals or peavine trail in Preskitt

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by azjeff
    69% have smacked their noggin really hard and saw stars
    17% have smacked it hard enough to say hmm...that coulda hurt
    14% ride the canals or peavine trail in Preskitt
    post of the year.
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  87. #87
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    [QUOTE=ggnarl]The point of my post was to have people examine their helmet use and realize that it does not provide much more safety. [/QUOTE

    i was avoiding this thread but a little incident sunday got me thinking about how completely asinine the above comment is...

    while flying down schultz to end my sunday ride i decided to hit the 2 little-ish (3') optional drops up on the left of the last 1.5 miles or so of trail... im sure some of you are quite familiar with those and i hit em all the time if im not totally beat...

    well, something didnt quite go right and i ejected myself off the 2nd one onto my head/face almost all the way back to the trail for those that are familiar... its a long way. one of those otbs that happen so fast that i didnt even get a chance to get my arms up to take some of the impact... lets just say if it was on youtube it would be a hot item. painful to watch type of thing.

    im guessing about 90% of the impact was right on my forehead where my helmet sits above my eye... cracked a fox flux in half (in the front, not all the way front the front of the helmet to the back!). luckily i hit fairly soft dirt/broken-up needle cast, had it been a rock i feel confident in saying i may have spent (still be there?) some time in surgery and/or icu.

    one cat scan, numerous head, neck and shoulder (collar bone) x-rays and (at this point) a nearly 4 day headache not to mention major neck and back pain later i can safely say i would be seriously ****ed-up had i not been rocking my skid lid.

    i have no clue how that helmet did not provide me additional safety or protection.

    either you enjoy being a contrarian or you are a fool. hopefully the former...

    wear those lids, kids!
    Last edited by happy_ending; 08-21-2008 at 12:48 PM.

  88. #88
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    GGnarl: It appears the statistics don't support your thesis. (I say this only because Happy Ending quoted your thing in bold up there.)

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  89. #89
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    [QUOTE=happy_ending]
    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl
    The point of my post was to have people examine their helmet use and realize that it does not provide much more safety. [/QUOTE

    i was avoiding this thread but a little incident sunday got me thinking about how completely asinine the above comment is...

    while flying down schultz to end my sunday ride i decided to hit the 2 little-ish (3') optional drops up on the left of the last 1.5 miles or so of trail... im sure some of you are quite familiar with those and i hit em all the time if im not totally beat...

    well, something didnt quite go right and i ejected myself off the 2nd one onto my head/face almost all the way back to the trail for those that are familiar... its a long way. one of those otbs that happen so fast that i didnt even get a chance to get my arms up to take some of the impact... lets just say if it was on youtube it would be a hot item. painful to watch type of thing.

    im guessing about 90% of the impact was right on my forehead where my helmet sits above my eye... cracked a fox flux in half (in the front, not all the way through!). luckily i hit fairly soft dirt/broken-up needle cast, had it been a rock i feel confident in saying i may have spent (still be there?) some time in surgery and/or icu.

    one cat scan, numerous head, neck and shoulder (collar bone) x-rays and (at this point) a nearly 4 day headache not to mention major neck and back pain later i can safely say i would be seriously ****ed-up had i not been rocking my skid lid.

    i have no clue how that helmet did not provide me additional safety or protection.

    either you enjoy being a contrarian or you are a fool. hopefully the former...

    wear those lids, kids!
    See, I think from your desription that the helmet saved you from loosing half your face and alot of blood to the dirt. +10 for wearing a helmet.

    I also think that in wearing a helmet you compounded that neck injury. Maybe -2 for wearing a helmet. http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1039.html

    The helmet split and therefore failed and probably didn’t absorb a lot of energy. Your skull did most of the work in staying intact. So 0 for wearing a helmet. http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1019.html

    So with a +8 for wearing a helmet, I'm actually with you in saying we should wear them. I just don’t think we should be complacent and think that the current design for XC type helmets is adequate enough to actually save lives by design rather than by luck.

    Laters,

    Marz

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    IIRC the stats say that helmets save you from injury but not death. Am I remembering right?

    Personally, I'd MUCH rather be protected from serious injury than from outright death.

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    one cat scan, numerous head, neck and shoulder (collar bone) x-rays and (at this point) a nearly 4 day headache not to mention major neck and back pain later i can safely say i would be seriously ****ed-up had i not been rocking my skid lid.

    i have no clue how that helmet did not provide me additional safety or protection.

    either you enjoy being a contrarian or you are a fool. hopefully the former...

    wear those lids, kids![/QUOTE]


    See my whole point is , and I understand its hard for some to grasp seeing as about half the people responding to this thread didn't read anything but the headline, is that if you weren't wearing the helmet, you might have ridden a little more conservatively and avoided the accident in the first place.

    And with that statement I am not suggesting riding without a helmet, but riding as if you weren't wearing a helmet. Unless you are one of the fools who think smoking pot to treat chronic injuries is a good idea. If thats the case- Ride On Brutha!

  92. #92
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    wearing my helmet

    i wear my helmet all the time... feel naked with out it. except i rode with out it the other weekend up in payson around woods canyon lake.. i was just tooling around and forgot it on accident but didnt want to ride back to camp to get it. Although i can say that it has saved my noggin a handfull of times when i have the back gate open on my explorer....i have wacked my head on it good before but with the helmet on it doesn't hurt!

  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggnarl
    See my whole point is , and I understand its hard for some to grasp seeing as about half the people responding to this thread didn't read anything but the headline, is that if you weren't wearing the helmet, you might have ridden a little more conservatively and avoided the accident in the first place.

    And with that statement I am not suggesting riding without a helmet, but riding as if you weren't wearing a helmet. Unless you are one of the fools who think smoking pot to treat chronic injuries is a good idea. If thats the case- Ride On Brutha!
    Actually, there is nothing hard to grasp about your point. We all comprehend it very clearly. We just strongly disagree.

    As to your seceond point, it is simply jibberish wrapped around circular logic. It goes nowhere and says nothing other than ride with a helmet. It also completely counteracts your first point.

    Regarding your point on pot, are you serious? Pot has many scientifically proven medical benefits. I am by no means one of those pro-hemp hippy dudes, but I sure do understand that pot helps countless people with legitimate medical needs. Pot is no different than any other medicine other than perhaps the stigma and legal status.
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    Geoff -- really? You think his point makes no sense? I rather agree with his last line about riding as if you're not wearing one. I even suggested the same thing a few posts up, the bit about imagining the fastest, toughest bit of trail you've ever ridden and then imagining how you might ride it w/o a helmet.

    I definitely think helmets grant additional security. Ggnarl seems to think it's just a sense of security; about 70% of us think it's real security. But does it really matter? Really?

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  95. #95
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    The argument about taking bigger risks when we feel more secure seems specious to me.

    Most of the time I'm not even aware that I'm wearing my helmet when I'm riding. The only time on the trails when I'm conscious of the lid is when it's dripping sweat in my eyes (and then the vision impairment is causing me to ride MORE cautiously, not less).

    I can't say that my helmet status (and I do seem to forget my helmet once or twice a year) has any impact on how I ride. When I get out on the trails, it doesn't even occur to me that my head is or is not protected.

    Life is full of choices. I find the choice to wear a helmet every time I ride (for the entire length of the ride) to be a safe choice with no appreciable downside. If I did pull the short straw and died on the trails, I don't want to leave my wife wondering why I didn't wear a helmet that day.

    Beer or Whiskey or Both is the question that causes the real brain sweat.

  96. #96
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    I never think I'm going to give a section shot or attack it at an advanced pace just because I'm wearing armor! As you get older and fail to heal in 24 hours. Your decision process on bodily injury goes up a notch. Not saying I won't try something new as to me that's part of the fun of riding in the first place! I wear a helmet always even on a canal and it has no bearing on how I ride.
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  97. #97
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    you should have a poll that polls what percentage of people get riled up about helmet usage.

    It is like religion, you chose to follow one or not but there are a million people on each side trying to convince you to go their way. If you have a religion some will tell you that you are a sheep. If you don't some will tell you that you are going to burn. If you wear a helmet some will tell you that your biggest benefit is a sense of security from it and if you don't some will tell you that you are an idiot.

    Me, I am will help you if you fall and are injured whether you have a helmet on or not, but I will not refrain from calling you an idiot if you didn't.
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  98. #98
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    wear the helmet. It only takes one time to hit your head on a rock and you might never ride again.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by trb2929
    I never think I'm going to give a section shot or attack it at an advanced pace just because I'm wearing armor!
    I do absolutely ride more aggressively with armor, and there are trails I do not want to ride without. But a helmet is different because of the severity of the consequences, the likelihood of hitting your head in an uncontrolled fall, and the fact that falls happen all the time when you are not expecting them. The vast majority of my falls over the years have led to bruises and rash on the limbs and palms, which suck but you get over. The few head ones have all been bad, really bad.

    to PaulB's point about riding gnar without your lid:
    I rode National and Pass Mtn for years without armor and still will sometimes, but my riding without a helmet goes beyond retracting into my comfort zone - i ride like every move is predicted and thought out, and do absolutely nothing aggressively or spontaneously or with rhythm. That is not riding, might as well sit on the exercise bike, when for $50 you can enjoy your sport safely. Do you play soccer without cleats? Do you play basketball in flip-flops? Softball without a mitt? Swim without goggles? Do you snowboard without gloves? Its part of the kit...unless you have a death wish or have never had the joy of hitting your head.

    Who amongst the anti-helmet crowd has ever hit their head? Ggnarl said he never did in one of his initial posts, which takes away his credibility on the matter in my mind. Martz points out lots of "studies" but never said if he ever hit his head. Do you know what a concussion feels like? Have you ever not been able to remember a couple days, had blood streaming down your face? Have you ever had stitches in your skull? I'll answer yes to every one of these. Good times!!!
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  100. #100
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    Armor may have been a poor choice of words. Certainly I would consider trying something all padded up compared to when I was not. My comment was relating to a helmet and I still stand by that statement.
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  101. #101
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    Funny, sad, true story: When I went to the North Shore in '05, I splashed out on a very, very nice suit of body armor -- full pressure suit, all the trimmings, side of taters. Cost me CAN$500 or so. I was totally and completely convinced I would attempt some of the bigger, crazier stuff if only I were better protected. I already had a full-face DOT helmet and good leg armor.

    I still rode like a wuss, once I was up on the hard stuff and faced with the near-certainty of taking a high-speed, high-elevation fall. Walked damn near all of Ladies Only. Walked damn near all of Boy Scout. Walked some absolutely insane ride we found up in Squamish that involved riding along monstrous logs about 30' in the air. I probably hiked 30 miles in 3 days -- in a full pressure suit, hauling around a heavy helmet and a 45# bike. Very demoralizing.

    By the time we got to Whistler proper, we started on the greens (easy) the first day, dipped our toes in the blues (intermediate) the second, and were riding pretty competently on the blues and messing with a couple of the easier blacks (hard) on the third day. There's no way in hell I'd even be looking at the black diamond trails if I weren't sealed like a sardine in a can.

    I don't know if there's a useful data point in all this. I know that if I were to ride, say, Desert Classic without a helmet, I'd probably be just a little more aware in the loose turns and such. I'd never ride National without one -- but if, say, my helmet strap broke and I were forced into it, damn skippy I'd be walking the tough stuff.

    I think the moral of the story is that we all have a risk threshold that we need to take responsibility for -- and if you get too far past it, all the armor in the world won't protect you.

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  102. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    Who amongst the anti-helmet crowd has ever hit their head? Ggnarl said he never did in one of his initial posts, which takes away his credibility on the matter in my mind. Martz points out lots of "studies" but never said if he ever hit his head. Do you know what a concussion feels like? Have you ever not been able to remember a couple days, had blood streaming down your face? Have you ever had stitches in your skull? I'll answer yes to every one of these. Good times!!!
    What anti-helmet crowd? Why do you think I'm anti-helmet? Did you not notice that I posted that I do wear a helmet?

    As to whether I've ever smacked my wee noggin', yes. In over 30 years of cycling, 18 offroad, 10 racing XC I have had my fair share of crashes. Concussed only twice, once unhelmeted and once with a helmet, both very different crashes and so difficult to compare. I've never cracked my skull, but I have required stitches to my scalp following a mtb wipeout, lost it after a 3 foot drop onto gravel into a right hand bend. A lot of bleedin' and a very painful 5 mile walk home with a busted bike. This was 18 years ago, before helmets were common at all, and one of the main crashes I've had that lead me, today, to wearing a helmet.

    It's when I look back at all the blunt blows I've taken that I am unable to really see a difference between wearing and not wearing a helmet. And it's reading research that seems to indicate helmets are not very good at preventing brain damage or death that leads me to not believe in their life saving capabilities.


    Quote..'Turning now to the question of the cycle helmet. The BMA has recommended that cycle helmets should be worn by pedal cyclists but the evidence in support of this recommendation is at best slim and does not give the whole picture relating to head injury and cycle helmets. Most experienced trauma surgeons believe that cycle helmets give only very limited head protection. Studies in Australia have shown that they give only marginal prevention of mild head injury and no effect on severe head injury, or death.'

    Laters,

    Marz

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by marzjennings
    What anti-helmet crowd? Why do you think I'm anti-helmet? Did you not notice that I posted that I do wear a helmet?

    you wear a helmet, but circulate studies that argue against their efficacy?

    perhaps this emoticon is more appropriate:
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  104. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    you wear a helmet, but circulate studies that argue against their efficacy?

    perhaps this emoticon is more appropriate:
    Concur broham.

    I understand contrarian behavior and all that, but if someone is anti-helmet but they wear a helmet when they ride, they are schizophrenic not contrarian.
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  105. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul B
    Geoff -- really? You think his point makes no sense? I rather agree with his last line about riding as if you're not wearing one. I even suggested the same thing a few posts up, the bit about imagining the fastest, toughest bit of trail you've ever ridden and then imagining how you might ride it w/o a helmet.p.
    Yes, absolutely. I am full of nuance and such, but sometimes things should be kept simple. "Ride with a helmet but as if without a helmet" is simply nothing more than "ride with a helmet and don't be reckless." Moreover, if one can ride with a helmet but as if without a helmet, then why wear the helmet at all since you are always riding as if you were without a helmet. You will never crash, right? hHogwash.
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  106. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by chollaball
    you wear a helmet, but circulate studies that argue against their efficacy?

    perhaps this emoticon is more appropriate:
    I have a different opinion as to their level of effectiveness. I don't disagree that at some level they can be effective. Have I not made thay simple enough for you?

  107. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirdir
    Concur broham.

    I understand contrarian behavior and all that, but if someone is anti-helmet but they wear a helmet when they ride, they are schizophrenic not contrarian.
    Again, why do you think I'm anti-helmet? Perhaps you could link to the text where I suggest folks shouldn't wear a helmet.



  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by marzjennings
    I have a different opinion as to their level of effectiveness. I don't disagree that at some level they can be effective. Have I not made thay simple enough for you?
    You win, we lose. Please move on.
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  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinny-tire
    You win, we lose. Please move on.
    Ok, fair enough I'll shut up. I don't think anyone has 'won' here.

  110. #110
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    This has been a most entertaining thread so far, don't get it locked now

    Marz, I waded through those "studies" you posted links to and they're mostly (admittedly) inconclusive. The main concern is rotational rather than linear acceleration and/or motion and the cause cited seems to be a helmet's ability to stick rather than slide when it hits pavement so it yanks yer head back hard. Lots of different surfaces to lawndart onto offroad so how could it compare? And, do you really believe studies done in Australia? Crikee mate


    Think this guy wished he had a helmet on just about now?
    Last edited by azjeff; 05-30-2011 at 08:35 PM.

  111. #111
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    No helmet, no brains... thats all i have to say
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  112. #112
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    <center> No, he just has faith.

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