Full Face helmets killing riders!- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
    Underskilled
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    Full Face helmets killing riders!

    Hi,

    A friend of my dad works for Chamonix hospital (spinal injuries guy, had a technical name i dodn't remember).

    Since the increase in popularity of full face helmets, the number of paralysations and broken necks is increasing rapidly.

    Aparantly if faceplanting at high speed previously the jaw would act as a crumple zone.
    Full face helmets tend to transfer the force to C2/3, either killing or paraplegising the crasher.

    Freaked me out learning that....no friking idea what to do now.
    So removing the jaw protection will increase change of cripling/fatal injury.

    **** **** **** what helmet do I wear now!!!!!

    argh
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  2. #2
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    uhh... how about a neck brace?

  3. #3
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    lol...
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  4. #4
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    yup. full face.

    and one of these
    http://www.leatt-brace.com/

  5. #5
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    I'll take my chances. Maxillofacial surgery is pretty expensive.
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  6. #6
    Pivotal figure
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    I'm just not gonna crash again. Ever.
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  7. #7
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    My full face and leatt saved my head and neck this weekend. I broke my D2 and have a decent bruise on my dome. Walked away with a minor concussion and some cuts on my forearm. Neck isn't sore and I'm still alive.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenbentit
    I'm just not gonna crash again. Ever.
    Dido
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  9. #9
    EastBaySteez
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    Are you kidding me?

    I've eaten **** with my full face on countless times.

    This is the silliest post I have ever read...
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  10. #10
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    there might be some truth to this but i am going to take my chances and stick with my full face, and add a neck brace down the road

  11. #11
    maker of trail
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    I'd rather not think about my jaw being a "crumple zone" thank you very much.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccspecialized
    My full face and leatt saved my head and neck this weekend. I broke my D2 and have a decent bruise on my dome. Walked away with a minor concussion and some cuts on my forearm. Neck isn't sore and I'm still alive.
    Is the D2 really done?

  13. #13
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    This is like the people who tell you that their "friend" got thrown from the car during a bad car crash and it ended up saving their life so now they don't wear a seatbelt anymore. Ridiculous.
    "There are two kinds of people in this world that go around beardless—boys and women, and I am neither one"

  14. #14
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    There is some truth to this. Smashing in the front of your face will take some force off your neck in a chin first impact, but do you really want to smash the front of your face in? Full-faces are the way to go and if you are concerned about neck injury get a Leatt or comparable neck brace.

  15. #15
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    airbags can kill you too, should we remove all airbags now?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by V.P.
    airbags can kill you too, should we remove all airbags now?
    Did you also know that in some instances driving a car can be fatal?

  17. #17
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    You can overdose on water too.
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  18. #18
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    I heard death is fatal.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikesair
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  20. #20
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    Slow is cool too, right?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by motormonkeyr6
    Are you kidding me?

    I've eaten **** with my full face on countless times.

    This is the silliest post I have ever read...
    You're not getting the point of the OP, and probably don't ride a motorcycle, or your lack of skill is compensated by your luck . The point is that the full face helmet increases the leverage on the neck. Conventional bike helmets don't surrond the head and therefore will slide before they can wrench the neck.

    On a motorcycle a helmet is a mixed blessing. It can kill you as easily as it saves your life. If you only had to worry about your head hitting the ground it would be fine. But the weight of the helmet is exaggerated in a crash (your neck has to contend with more g's than it would without the helmet) That's the trade off. Your brain doesn't bounce around and tear inside your skull, but your neck takes the brunt of the force. So the helmet prevents brain damage, but does nothing to protect the spine.

    After you hit the ground, and start to slide the helmet becomes a liability. That's why you can crash at 100 mph and walk away from a race bike. Tracks don't have anything to hit. In the real world, dropping a motorcycle usually means you're gonna hit something. And when you do there is a differential between your head's g force and your body's

    Because motorcycles move faster than bikes the types of injuries are exagerated. Full face helmets save the brain but cause spinal injuries. Shorties (the minimialist half helmet tend to kill more with brain damage (by sliding on the head) than by snapping the neck. He wasn't saying that full face are bad, just that he didn't know that wearing a helmet was also risky (but not as bad as none at all, seriously)

    REALITY CHECK!!!!

    This has always been an issue with full face helmets, long before they were used on mountain bikes. You're still better off with a full face than nothing at all. It's nothing new and this is just a reminder that having fun can be dangerous

    BIGGER REALITY CHECK!!!!
    You're more likely to be killed or paralyzed getting out of the shower, or walking down stairs, than you are riding a mountain bike. In the 12 years I've been at mtbr (changed handles) I only know of 2 deaths while biking. One was a Clydesdale that suffered a heart attack on the trail, the other was a crash on Lion's Back. If you live in fear you'll never have a life.
    Life is too short to race through it. When life is a blur, you'll miss the magic.

  22. #22
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    I'd like to know if the same thing is happening in Whistler.
    Is this Chamonix hospital referring to all users of fullface helmets or only mtber's?
    Are these accidents happening on purpose built mtb trails or hiking trails?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikesair
    Dido
    You forgot the L.
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  24. #24
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    Did anybody ask to ban full face helmets? It's hilarious to see all the non-sequiturs pop up.

    Yes, those things can cause a small percentage of deaths. But the benefits outweigh the long shot risks.

    The corollary to that is not wearing a helmet at all. Sure the risk of neck injury is reduced but you may suffer so much brain damage that you still end up in a wheel chair or coffin anyway.

    I know I'd rather be completely dead than just vegetable brain dead. But, I'd rather be paralyzed (but functional) than completely dead. So I guess full face helmets still make sense
    Life is too short to race through it. When life is a blur, you'll miss the magic.

  25. #25
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    Is using a moto x full face helmet overkill on a downhill? Reason I ask is because moto x helmets are a little bigger, and those fit my dome a little better than the mtb ones.

  26. #26
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    Its not ********............many years ago the same increase in neck injuries were seen when Moto crossers started using full face helmets, its especialy noticeable in injuries to youngsters whose heads are propotionately larger
    It was then recomended that youth motocross riders wear helmets with seperate jaw protection attached with nylon bolts or open face with facemask
    DON'T TELL ME I'M STILL ON THAT FECKIN' ISLAND! ....

  27. #27
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    Numbers must be analized correctly.

    What are this numbers saying?

    1) Using full face helmets has increased the number of injuries and if they were using an open helmet would've reduced the injuries? If not using full face helmets, those injuries would be fatalities?

    2) Increase in full face helmet popularity has also increased the number of aggresive riders? So now more people feeling secure is riding faster and more dangerously?

    3) Are there more mountain bikers now than there were 5 years ago?

    Sorry for the english



    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Hi,

    A friend of my dad works for Chamonix hospital (spinal injuries guy, had a technical name i dodn't remember).

    Since the increase in popularity of full face helmets, the number of paralysations and broken necks is increasing rapidly.

    Aparantly if faceplanting at high speed previously the jaw would act as a crumple zone.
    Full face helmets tend to transfer the force to C2/3, either killing or paraplegising the crasher.

    Freaked me out learning that....no friking idea what to do now.
    So removing the jaw protection will increase change of cripling/fatal injury.

    **** **** **** what helmet do I wear now!!!!!

    argh

  28. #28
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    all i know is 'paraplegising' is an awesome new word.

    so is 'analized'

    i love this thread so much already.
    what would rainbow unicorn do?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggy97
    You're not getting the point of the OP, and probably don't ride a motorcycle, or your lack of skill is compensated by your luck . The point is that the full face helmet increases the leverage on the neck. Conventional bike helmets don't surrond the head and therefore will slide before they can wrench the neck.

    On a motorcycle a helmet is a mixed blessing. It can kill you as easily as it saves your life. If you only had to worry about your head hitting the ground it would be fine. But the weight of the helmet is exaggerated in a crash (your neck has to contend with more g's than it would without the helmet) That's the trade off. Your brain doesn't bounce around and tear inside your skull, but your neck takes the brunt of the force. So the helmet prevents brain damage, but does nothing to protect the spine.

    After you hit the ground, and start to slide the helmet becomes a liability. That's why you can crash at 100 mph and walk away from a race bike. Tracks don't have anything to hit. In the real world, dropping a motorcycle usually means you're gonna hit something. And when you do there is a differential between your head's g force and your body's

    Because motorcycles move faster than bikes the types of injuries are exagerated. Full face helmets save the brain but cause spinal injuries. Shorties (the minimialist half helmet tend to kill more with brain damage (by sliding on the head) than by snapping the neck. He wasn't saying that full face are bad, just that he didn't know that wearing a helmet was also risky (but not as bad as none at all, seriously)

    REALITY CHECK!!!!

    This has always been an issue with full face helmets, long before they were used on mountain bikes. You're still better off with a full face than nothing at all. It's nothing new and this is just a reminder that having fun can be dangerous

    BIGGER REALITY CHECK!!!!
    You're more likely to be killed or paralyzed getting out of the shower, or walking down stairs, than you are riding a mountain bike. In the 12 years I've been at mtbr (changed handles) I only know of 2 deaths while biking. One was a Clydesdale that suffered a heart attack on the trail, the other was a crash on Lion's Back. If you live in fear you'll never have a life.
    Quick to judge

    I was speaking of regular old downhill helmets in mountain bike crashes.... Bell Drop, Giro Remedy etc etc. It would be stupid for people to stop wearing them in fear or "parallelization" due to a mtb crash...

    I do ride moto thank you very much.
    Last year alone I put on over 15,000-17,000street miles on my SV650S, and have already put on close to 3k over here in Germany on my F3 in less than a month... I have been using a Leatt for street, but I WILL NOT wear a Leatt for downhill. Its plain silly.

    Lets not even get into the whole moto-aspect of this... MTBR'rs would not understand. Just like how they dont understand why DOT approved moto helmets are a bad idea for downhillers......
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  30. #30
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    Is there actual data to support the claim? It sounds logical - but there's a lot variables that could be at play, one being (as mentioned) - does wearing a full face increase the risk taking by riders not skilled enough to deal with situations they put themselves in?

    It is still quite possible to mess up your C2/3 with a "regular" helmet. A rider out here did it last year while wearing an XC helmet and passed away.

    I'd like to see stats, as unbiased as possible...
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggy97
    Tracks don't have anything to hit. In the real world, dropping a motorcycle usually means you're gonna hit something.
    BS, lots of tracks have things to hit, and there's plenty of road wrecks that don't involve hitting anything besides the ground.

  32. #32
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    Well hell all this talk of being turned into a parallelogram have got me scared.
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  33. #33
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    Freak things can happen even with safety equipment, Its just a risk we have to take

  34. #34
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    After my many neck injuries and issues I actual believe there is probably quite a bit of truth to this "theory." That said, I still wear a full face quite a bit as I want my brain to stay functioning. However, I am pretty calculating about risk in general these days. I use a non-FF whenever I feel like I can safely do it (ie. likely to land on dirt rather than rock, or not crash at all). Most of the bones in my face were already destroyed long before I ever rode a mountain bike. I keep thinking of getting a Leatt, but my wife's view is that I should just be more safe and not expect my gear to save me. Probably some truth to that as well

    Another interesting one is that lately there has been a trend in mountain bike helmets to add cool looking ridges. On a XC lid the material crushes very easy so I bet it does little. However, on fiberglass and carbon FF helmets if you land on one of those ridges it will instantly torque your neck. They have been out of style in moto for a while because of this but I've notice some starting to come back although they look like some thought might have gone into this effect. Where as in mountain bikes they seem very style centric. My current DH helmet is a 661 which does have the ridges and a month ago when I felt my spine crush on itself, it did instantly torque my head a bit to one side. Not a good day

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikesair
    Dido
    huh - well, thank you too - i guess
    <embed src="http://www.metacafe.com/fplayer/sy-18502717/dido_thank_you_official_music_video.swf" width="400" height="345" wmode="transparent" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" name="Metacafe_sy-18502717"> </embed><br><font size = 1><a href="http://www.metacafe.com/watch/sy-18502717/dido_thank_you_official_music_video/">Dido - Thank You (Official Music Video)</a> - Watch more top selected videos about: <a href="https://www.metacafe.com/topics/Dido/" title="Dido">Dido</a>
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    I'll take my chances. Maxillofacial surgery is pretty expensive.

    Right cause spinal surgery and life in a wheel chair isn't

  37. #37
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    - No numbers to back this up
    - Correlation does not imply causation. Ever stop to think that it might be due to more people riding downhill bikes than before? More riders wearing full face helmets = more opportunities for injury.
    - If you're worried, they make devices to help prevent these injuries. But sadly, you'll never save everyone all the time.

    Dumbest thread in a while, it's taken some hilarious turns though.
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by klavius
    Numbers must be analized correctly.

    What are this numbers saying?

    1) Using full face helmets has increased the number of injuries and if they were using an open helmet would've reduced the injuries? If not using full face helmets, those injuries would be fatalities?

    This is a tricky one I'm not going to say one way or another.

    Other than to say this what needs to be taken in context.

    The facts are most riders and I'm taking JOE average is doing things now on bikes that only a few years ago pros were barely able to do and the tech/ helmet protection stds has not improved with the pace of development or testosterone of riders.

    There has been great strides in neck braces, but they will only suit some aspects, DH, BMX, etc there maybe more applications but riders need to take responsibility for that!!

    We are building stuff ourselves, the access especially where you are to long high speed and steep tech terrain will have as much an increase on injury than Helmets alone will, but refer to responsibility again to riders and manufactures who make stuff for us, which comes first, also compatibility hence why I keep including manufactures, WAKE up people do not make stuff that is only compatible with your brand this reduces ya potential sales one and will always confuse ya market too which again affects sales and also increases risk, Humans will be humans and always try to incorporate something that dosen't fit period, esp in MTB.

    I could mention brands but I won't as there's plenty of threads that highlight this, the ball is in there court, it will only take one case in court which is only a matter of time imo
    That said there is also some encouraging signs by some too, again no names but it's obvious who these coy's are, we still have to take the bull by the horns though.

    However en of day if you jump out of a plane with no parachute then ya can't blame anyone but yaself, FS alone is not as I proved the only risk it is all risk which is why we do it, there are as many people are doing exactly that with XC Helmets jumping massive drops jumps etc, I see it posted here all the time.

    Personally if ya wearing a FS there's no way now I would ride without my neck brace


    2) Increase in full face helmet popularity has also increased the number of aggresive riders? So now more people feeling secure is riding faster and more dangerously?

    Again hard to quantify, but more to do with increase in riders and terrain that is pushing the boundaries and riders and equipment is not keeping pace, lots of riders nowadays come straight onto 8" of travel have never ridden a hardtail and learnt basic skills, anyone can go big in a straight line, its like giving a license to a 15year and an 1100 cc road bike a say wind it out, anyone can in a straight line, do that through the corners and see what happens, MTB is in the same mode,bike technology has lept bounds ahead while not much else as changed, and riders are very dumbed down

    3) Are there more mountain bikers now than there were 5 years ago?

    Without doubt, riding high tech bikes, doing s h i t they probably can handle at times and others will have dire consequence, skills alone is not going to ness remove this fact but it will reduce it and more importantly make people more aware or what they are doing, RISK is a key part of MTB otherwise whats the point, but like sex now we all need protection, even being married is no guarantee ya pardener is not having unsafe sex some where and putting you at risk, but we still want it enjoy it and risk it, safety is awareness

    Sorry for the english
    Lastly I would say with these posts, is its important to do some research, then post with some back ground so it dosen't easily get thwarted not too easy here at times, there's fun and then there's serious stuff and this is far more serious with potential to mislead and more importantly leave some to think what they do is ok raising the risk even more!

    Weve had young kids DJing here die, riders of all levels injured seriously and not so serious, no one is immune, used to say if ya do it long enough its not if its when, how you deal with it is how prepared you are for it, S H I T will happen in life that is a given no matter who you are, how good, how much money you make, what you do in life, it will be a given, then ya die lol.

    In my case I could have done more and was prepared, though on reflection there was def more could have done, but I blame no one else.
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    The internet sounds like a tough place to ride.

  40. #40
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    How does the human jaw work as a crumple zone?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtg7aa
    BS, lots of tracks have things to hit, and there's plenty of road wrecks that don't involve hitting anything besides the ground.
    What race tracks are you riding on? Do you even race? Most bikes are dropped in the turns, let's say 99% of drops happen in the turns. I challenge any motorbike rider to drop in a turn and touch a wall. Even if you get airborn the walls are a long way away. Hitting the wall on a straight does happen, but that either involves being hit by an idiot or a massive mechanical. Even then, hitting the wall with a lethal amount of force is extremely rare

    The curb on a race track is a pretty stripped thing. The curb on the road is a piece of concrete, not to mention parked cars etc. Granted, country roads don't have curbs, but they do generally have drainage ditches. You can't slide through a ditch.

    Have you even done a single trackday on a motorcycle? Or even watched a MotoGP race? Name any track and the turn that you could conceivably hit the wall. ONE!! 150-200 lbs doesn't have the inertia to make it through the pea gravel all the way to the wall

    I don't say this often...but, STFU
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  42. #42
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    simple as this kids by fullface helmets to get more protection. Then they go hit bigger stuff that they are not capable of doing and eat it and end up with neck and spine injuries

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Cliffy
    Nice one UC good shot, glad he had his brace on

    Do some MTB crahs searches on Utube there's alot of help in seeing how the head face etc gets dealt too on impacts.

    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="https://www.youtube.com/v/p3KWKWFSouU&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/p3KWKWFSouU&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

    heres just a couple, note the French man never attampted this again after 5years of recovery and rehab

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRD...eature=related
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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    Helmet for your neck

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  44. #44
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    <object width="464" height="384" id="961407" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" classid="clsid27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" alt="Scary Crash Sends Rider Over Barricade Funny Videos"><param name="movie" value="http://embed.break.com/OTYxNDA3"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://embed.break.com/OTYxNDA3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowScriptAccess=always width="464" height="384"></embed></object><br><font size=1><a href="http://www.break.com/index/scary-crash-sends-rider-over-barricade.html" target="_blank">Scary Crash Sends Rider Over Barricade</a> - Watch more <a href="http://www.break.com/" target="_blank">Funny Videos</a></font>
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  45. #45
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    I ate **** the other day with mine on and I didn't even know I hit my head til I looked at my helmet that night... So I'm all for em

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeegs
    I ate **** the other day with mine on and I didn't even know I hit my head til I looked at my helmet that night... So I'm all for em
    Thats the most solid piece of evidince in this arguement case closed

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    Quote Originally Posted by KHSrider41
    Thats the most solid piece of evidince in this arguement case closed
    enough for me to recommend one! And I broke my jaw in three places... Never want to do that again

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Cliffy
    5150 your the only cat I know that grabs the boys and protects them in a crash!!! LOL
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    Ouch! in the 3 years I've used them from mountian biking to BMX racing, I haven't hurt my head even though I've fallen a lot
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullcrew
    5150 your the only cat I know that grabs the boys and protects them in a crash!!! LOL
    What u doing looking at his boys
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  51. #51
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    My broken jaw cost $68,000 to fix.

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    My gal is a DH ski racer and she told me they've banned fullface helmets in that sport for this reason...so I think there is some basis for this. But to be clear it's not the helmet that kills riders, more likely the horrendous crash. Pretty sure handlebars cause a lot of injuries but I don't see them going anywhere. More likely, I think Leatts will continue to grow in popularity, I mean Sam Hill is wearing one now so they'll be totally in vogue this year.
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  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by chup29
    uhh... how about a neck brace?
    yep...........
    p
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  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    What u doing looking at his boys
    His boys arent on the list of things Id like to see thats for sure. I would start with seeing Megan Foxs (hoo hoos) thats pretty far up on the list!
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  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullcrew
    His boys arent on the list of things Id like to see thats for sure. I would start with seeing Megan Foxs (hoo hoos) thats pretty far up on the list!
    Haha yeah not opposed to some flashing from foxy Meagan, more of a jessica alba man myself though She looks a litle more natural
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  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado
    My gal is a DH ski racer and she told me they've banned fullface helmets in that sport for this reason...so I think there is some basis for this. But to be clear it's not the helmet that kills riders, more likely the horrendous crash. Pretty sure handlebars cause a lot of injuries but I don't see them going anywhere. More likely, I think Leatts will continue to grow in popularity, I mean Sam Hill is wearing one now so they'll be totally in vogue this year.
    Yeah I don't know if they can be compared.

    Seatbelts were poo pooed by everyone until the 70s then they became mandatory, manufactures spent millions fighting it, now they're proven without doubt to save lives, not everyone's in every situation but proven too be best case scenario to date, body armor in war saves lives but not the fatal one, Helmets the same, only since 1970 have they been mandatory, its relative.

    Neck braces have shown to save lives, at the same time as have other advances e.g F1, indy cars, MotoX , in fact the motoX boys poo pooed the Leatt brace for sometime then once it was accepted it now pretty much dominates over 90 percent of the off road market, not against competition but all riders, we have been slow to adopt but it is growing fast.

    As long as unscrupulous companies don't compromise any component for costs, its been proven in combat where manufactures have short changed the forces safely be compromised.

    In isolation the neck is severely compromised, with neck protection and appropriate body protection, e.g each component complements the other then risk is def reduced.

    And that's the crux many are getting wrong.

    Skiing snowboarding, was a boarder til my accident, most here broken wrists due because people don't wear em, so end of day, comes down to the individual responsibility.

    Maybe some sort of neck device will come in for Skiers at her level, makes sense to me, again speeds have increased and not much more has been done to compensate, no matter how good a Helmet is, that's what needs to be looked at and MTB progress is no different. we need to put it in context., stop making excuses why not to do things and front up and do things right!
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  57. #57
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    I'm sure Chamonix hospital has killed more people than full-face helments ever will.
    The guy yo' momma "act" like she don't know!

  58. #58
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    i wear a full face and dont think twice about it. If you are worried, find another hobby.

  59. #59
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    Wow there is a massive split in response.
    The main divide seems to be those who have already hit their heads too many times and those still capable of rational thought.

    As there seems to a bit of interest here, I will expand the original conversation.

    Most of this was related to the banning of full face helmet in skiing and how there is a similar problem in biking.
    They have noticed a significant drop in shattered jaws and an increase in shattered spines. They believe this is due the the full face holding the head rigid and transfering the force to the top of the neck.

    The above are all facts given my a trained expert in this field,
    Don't confused facts with speculation. That is the info, draw your own opinions on how it happens

    Look at cliffys picture.

    the chinguard is going to push the neck up and back.
    with an open face, the jaw will disintegrate, but keep the spine in line.

    The neck brace is out of the picture, that protects from head snapping back, not being compressd down (it would set up differently, but isnt).

    I have no further information.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Wow there is a massive split in response.
    The main divide seems to be those who have already hit their heads too many times and those still capable of rational thought.

    As there seems to a bit of interest here, I will expand the original conversation.

    Most of this was related to the banning of full face helmet in skiing and how there is a similar problem in biking.
    They have noticed a significant drop in shattered jaws and an increase in shattered spines. They believe this is due the the full face holding the head rigid and transfering the force to the top of the neck.

    The above are all facts given my a trained expert in this field,
    Don't confused facts with speculation. That is the info, draw your own opinions on how it happens

    Look at cliffys picture.

    the chinguard is going to push the neck up and back.
    with an open face, the jaw will disintegrate, but keep the spine in line.

    The neck brace is out of the picture, that protects from head snapping back, not being compressd down (it would set up differently, but isnt).

    I have no further information.
    I hear what you are saying. However the solution is not to ban full face helmets. While mine hasn't broken my neck yet, its certainly done an admirable job protecting my face and head against other injuries thus far.

    The way I look at what you are saying is that the full face helmet is an incomplete piece of safety equipment, its missing the neck brace.

  61. #61
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    Cavegiant, I think you'll find that neck braces are also designed to cope with spinal compression as well as hyperflexion and hypertension. In fact, the alpinestars brace was designed with a focus on eliminating compression of the spine.
    It should also be noted that an alpinestars brace is rubbish when not used with a moto helmet, the considerably lower profile while compared to a leatt means that your neck will be severely damaged due to hyperflexion/tension before the brace saves you.
    Also, the whole argument regarding the use of DOT helmets in DH applications is stupid. There is no way that well designed moto helmet will no cause more harm than good in a DH situation.
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  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado
    My gal is a DH ski racer and she told me they've banned fullface helmets in that sport for this reason...so I think there is some basis for this. But to be clear it's not the helmet that kills riders, more likely the horrendous crash. Pretty sure handlebars cause a lot of injuries but I don't see them going anywhere. More likely, I think Leatts will continue to grow in popularity, I mean Sam Hill is wearing one now so they'll be totally in vogue this year.

    I've been borrowing one for moto, even then. I cant see myself EVER buying one if they stay at the silly price they are now....
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  63. #63
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    I've crashed face 1st many a times. Many many many times. OTB to face. One time so hard that I shattered the mouth guard on my Giro Remedy. Yet no broken neck? hmmm.
    Yet my neck is still in once piece? Maybe Im just a freak of nature.
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Wow there is a massive split in response.
    The main divide seems to be those who have already hit their heads too many times and those still capable of rational thought.

    As there seems to a bit of interest here, I will expand the original conversation.

    Most of this was related to the banning of full face helmet in skiing and how there is a similar problem in biking.
    They have noticed a significant drop in shattered jaws and an increase in shattered spines. They believe this is due the the full face holding the head rigid and transfering the force to the top of the neck.

    The above are all facts given my a trained expert in this field,
    Don't confused facts with speculation. That is the info, draw your own opinions on how it happens

    Look at cliffys picture.

    the chinguard is going to push the neck up and back.
    with an open face, the jaw will disintegrate, but keep the spine in line.

    The neck brace is out of the picture, that protects from head snapping back, not being compressd down (it would set up differently, but isnt).

    I have no further information.
    You keep talking about these "facts" but you've yet to produce any. Send some scientific studies with NUMBERS or some published scientific journals and maybe people will believe you. Until that is posted you're just some dude online who knows a guy who knows about some stuff.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebrahum
    - No numbers to back this up
    - Correlation does not imply causation. Ever stop to think that it might be due to more people riding downhill bikes than before? More riders wearing full face helmets = more opportunities for injury.
    - If you're worried, they make devices to help prevent these injuries. But sadly, you'll never save everyone all the time.

    Dumbest thread in a while, it's taken some hilarious turns though.
    pretty much sum it up.

    Cavegiant, you say full face usage has gone up - any numbers to back this up? No, because its hearsay from a doctor who has probably done zero whatsoever studies and tests, with no statistical backing - 100% second hand hearsay.

    You believe it, so you fiercely defend it.

    But lets say your right in that first point, that more people are using full face helmets, and more people are having spinal injuries and dying. That still means absolutely nothing, given that you're failing (and so is the doctor) to take in to account either of two other very important variables, namely the number of people riding or skiing in that area - has it gone up? down? And further, who its happening to; is it happening to the group of people progressing the sport? to the entry level skiiers/riders? If its happening more to the people going big, it could simply be a case of "these guys used to do 40-50 foot jumps, and now they're doing 130 foot triple corks, and crazy ass sh1t. If there are more people riding in this area, then all it says is that full face helmets protect against jaw injuries, and should be worn.

    But no, seriously, keep going, this thread is awesome
    Last edited by William42; 05-18-2010 at 02:17 PM.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Wow there is a massive split in response.
    The main divide seems to be those who have already hit their heads too many times and those still capable of rational thought.

    As there seems to a bit of interest here, I will expand the original conversation.

    Most of this was related to the banning of full face helmet in skiing and how there is a similar problem in biking.
    They have noticed a significant drop in shattered jaws and an increase in shattered spines. They believe this is due the the full face holding the head rigid and transfering the force to the top of the neck.

    The above are all facts given my a trained expert in this field,
    Don't confused facts with speculation. That is the info, draw your own opinions on how it happens.
    Uh, WHAT FACTS? and what expert? A downhill skier is no more an expert in the field of helmet design than you or I. Where did you present verifiable, documented information? Statement of "belief" is not proof. Supposition is not proof. What a doctor "thinks" is not proof. Skiing - the speeds attained while doing it, and the falls that result from it, are not the same as what happens in mountain biking. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

    I would not argue that the premise is not true (but I am skeptical), only that you have not presented information to support that it is. Saying the human jaw is the crumple zone does not preclude injury to the spine. It would depend on many circumstances, including impact, angle, and force. It is conceivable that the jaw could crumple, and the spine could suffer severe trauma - or the jaw might not crumple at all - and several spinal trauma will occur. Have comparison studies been done between full face and open face helmets to test this idea? Can you reference any?

    A person died in this area last year in an otb accident - the injury was a spinal fracture (possibly C1/C2?) - he was wearing an open face XC helmet. The "jaw crumple zone" didn't do squat. There are some falls, some impacts that no safety device will protect you from - you ride, take take that risk. We wear safety gear to minimize the chances of the worst case scenario. To expect it to protect from everything is not realistic. There are some falls that nothing will protect you against.

    I took a spill last year while wearing my full face. Did a nice face down slide, and was run over by another rider. While I did not fall in such a way to put pressure on my spine (as well as I can recall), the full face saved me from a lot facial trauma and I'm glad I wore it.
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  67. #67
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    He has no further information... He can't prove anything, he's blaming an increase in neck injuies on something without conclusive evidence
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    The number one cause of death is....life.
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  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by klavius
    Numbers must be analyzed correctly.

    2) Increase in full face helmet popularity has also increased the number of aggresive riders? So now more people feeling secure is riding faster and more dangerously?

    3) Are there more mountain bikers now than there were 5 years ago?
    These would be my best guesses. More biking injuries due to more (and more aggressive) bikers. Not the equipment they are wearing.

  70. #70
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    Wow there are some serious retards on here...really quite special.

    I believe there is a law somewhere about arguing on the internet and mutual stupidity.

    So I won't.

    To sum up, don't lecture me in scientific method, I am a trained scientist and probably a lot smarter hungover, than you were at your best (i.e. before your mum dropped you on your head for the first of many many times).

    Secondly, do not draw false conclusions from the information then say I made those conclusions.

    Thirdly you smell and have poopy pants.

    I should also like to add that a spinal injuries specialist in a hospital that probably has one of the highest intakes in the world for extreme sports injuries would be classified as an expert by most.

    Statistics are not required for proof.

    Now I am presenting two choices for the haters:

    1: keep whining and make yourselves look even worse

    2: learn from this information - If riding at highspeed and wearing a full face it is advisable to wear a good quality neck brace (that is set up to prevent compression).

    The choice is yours.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  71. #71
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    Oh and the 'special' award goes to monkey, the posts by that guy were a classic =-)
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  72. #72
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    A scientist!

    I've heard of those; were you close with L. Ron?

  73. #73
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    "An increase in the use of full face helmets" implies

    1. An increase of those finally purchasing said full facehelmet because they are riding harder and faster, hence, more dangerously, or;

    2. An increase in the general population of those riding bikes/moto that require full face helmets.

    You cannot blame the helmet for the increase in injury. You must understand that the popularity of BMX, Freeride, DH as well as Moto-X is on the rise, and has been for a while. It is the rise in popularity that has increased injuries.

    If 10 people ride, and 1 brakes their neck with a full face, that's 1 person, but only 10%. If 100 people ride, and 10 break their neck, that's now 10 people (lyke OMG, 9 more people broke their neck lyke-omg-WTF-BBQ!?!?! - it's totally the helmet's fault!!!!!!!11111!!!!11!oneonejuan), but that's still only 10%.

    Mathematics saved my soul (and my neck... as the case may be).

    And I've had wrecks where without a full face, I'd be eating through a straw. And I've had wrecks where, without my full face and Leatt, I'd be hobbling around or not walking.

    Get a helmet that gets tested for frontal-impact. Not all mountain bike full-face helmets do.
    Meh.

  74. #74
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    I gotta say....this is absurd. My fullface has saved my handsome face 3 times in the last year alone. Assuming the statement is correct, maybe it's due to riders taking it up a notch since they feel safer wearing a fullface. I personally try bigger things knowing I have decent protection. And like a few mentioned, use a LEATT to avoid neck injuries

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Oh and the 'special' award goes to monkey, the posts by that guy were a classic =-)
    I aim to please.

    And I didnt even have to take my pants off this time!
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  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    don't lecture me in scientific method, I am a trained scientist and probably a lot smarter hungover, than you were at your best

    Statistics are not required for proof.

    Haha, just had to highlight these gems. Get called out on a lack of evidence of any scientific sort, then resort to name calling to defend your feeble case, and finally deny that statistics are necessary to back up your statements. Classic internet debating skills.
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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    To sum up, don't lecture me in scientific method, I am a trained scientist and probably a lot smarter hungover, than you were at your best (i.e. before your mum dropped you on your head for the first of many many times).
    Your mom must be sooo proud.
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  78. #78
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    It's analyze....but that's a moot point I think FF's are a good thing, and even better when paired with a neck brace. The benefits outweigh the risks in my mind, my face would have disfigured a few times were it not for my FF. I will, however, say it's a fallacy to believe that just because you're wearing gear you won't get hurt. E.G., I crushed my left arm near the wrist breaking it into 7 pieces while I was fully armored, and just cruising some buff double track at around 25mph. My front tire hit a rut beneath some soft dirt and I got owned pretty quickly. I had kind of an epiphany then. I had ridden very over the top cautiously up to that point, and so it hit me that I might as well ride more aggressively because I'll crash either way. Since then my riding abilities have really increased. It's important to note that I'm not an ignoramus; I weigh the risks carefully and ride within my limits. I always joke that the best protection is something money can't buy and is in apparent high demand; GOOD JUDGEMENT!!!
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Wow there are some serious retards on here...really quite special.

    I believe there is a law somewhere about arguing on the internet and mutual stupidity.

    So I won't.

    To sum up, don't lecture me in scientific method, I am a trained scientist and probably a lot smarter hungover, than you were at your best (i.e. before your mum dropped you on your head for the first of many many times).

    Secondly, do not draw false conclusions from the information then say I made those conclusions.

    Thirdly you smell and have poopy pants.

    I should also like to add that a spinal injuries specialist in a hospital that probably has one of the highest intakes in the world for extreme sports injuries would be classified as an expert by most.
    Yeah, you're a scientist... right. Credentials? or is it just cause you say you are, and credentials are not required? Like your supposed facts.. Yeah, scientist..

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  80. #80
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    I can't believe you wussies wear helmets to ride your bicycles.
    Its a kid's toy for christ's sake.

  81. #81
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    If we were to do this in the "scientific" way, we would go about it the same way any huge manufacturer does, calculate what is least likely to cost us a huge amount of cash in settlements :P

    And thus- 1 random that might break his neck wearing a FF vs the 3000 that crash on a regular basis and faceplant.

    Somehow im guessing the economical side in this says...

    FF helmets are better then no helm or a pisspot on your nugget.

    All of this is of course.. 100% true, and i dont need to show any evidence, cos i am always right.

  82. #82
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    All the above points are valid, but the believed cause of fracture is directly due to the full face helmet concentrating the force that would have been spread around to the top of the spine cracking it. A well set up neck brace would re-spread the force out.

    We can make as many assumptions on what else might be causing the problem, but have no evidence to back it up, so wasting our time there.
    I personally ride faster with my FF lid than with my open face. Does that mean everyone does, no.

    So people are making a lot of assumptions to disprove the facts.
    If your assumption disproves a fact the assumption must be false.

    A statistically significant proportion of people are having their neck broken in the same place, there is also a large reductions in jaws being shattered.

    Make up any story you wish as to why this is happening, but it is so you have to live with it.

    So jumping back up to the above,

    Either learn from this info, or reject it.

    The power is in your hands.


    p.s. just in case any wants to contradict me, I would like them also to provide, names and references of character. Any university qualifications to be listed would also assist. A clear line of logic would also be nice, preferably one based on broad experience.
    p.p.s. If anyone wishes to comment on what I said, quote me, this saves a lot of the miss-understanding. Only an idiot rides without a helmet, fullface and neck brace provides best protection and is best.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    A friend of my dad works for Chamonix hospital (spinal injuries guy, had a technical name i dodn't remember).

    Since the increase in popularity of full face helmets, the number of paralysations and broken necks is increasing rapidly.

    Aparantly if faceplanting at high speed previously the jaw would act as a crumple zone.
    Full face helmets tend to transfer the force to C2/3, either killing or paraplegising the crasher.
    Did you honestly forget what you started this whole thread with? You came out claiming that full face helmets lead to paralyzations stating third hand knowledge as your basis. We all understand your current point of wear a brace, but you started this whole damn thing by asking what helmet you should ride now that full faces will break your neck.

    You deserve all dissenting opinions, and you deserve all criticism of your points. As a scientist, you should damn well know that you need to put some rigor into your research or you'll get torn up. So tear away we all did. Not many people will argue with your current stance of pro-neck brace, but that's not where everyone got hung up.
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  84. #84
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    Dido on the scientific analizing

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P
    Dido on the scientific analizing
    you just want me to post another video huh?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebrahum
    Did you honestly forget what you started this whole thread with? You came out claiming that full face helmets lead to paralyzations stating third hand knowledge as your basis. We all understand your current point of wear a brace, but you started this whole damn thing by asking what helmet you should ride now that full faces will break your neck.

    You deserve all dissenting opinions, and you deserve all criticism of your points. As a scientist, you should damn well know that you need to put some rigor into your research or you'll get torn up. So tear away we all did. Not many people will argue with your current stance of pro-neck brace, but that's not where everyone got hung up.
    I posted info as soon as i got it.

    Then realised with the first response the answer was obvious, neck brace, hence the lol.

    I think I am allowed to change my opinion while on here, that is the point of a forum is it not, information exchange and revision of ideas?

    so there were some very good posts/info here, just mostly crap.

    p.s. I am not a scientist, just scientifically trained at uni.


    rigor into my research? There was no analysis in the OP, just posting original info from a reliable source. I posted a question, I was not offering advise at that stage.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    To sum up, don't lecture me in scientific method, I am a trained scientist and probably a lot smarter hungover, than you were at your best
    This just keeps getting more and more fun. Perhaps what keeps you from being a scientist is your inability to read or remember what you have already wrote.
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  88. #88
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    This has been such an useful and informative thread.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    A statistically significant proportion of people are having their neck broken in the same place, there is also a large reductions in jaws being shattered.

    p.s. just in case any wants to contradict me, I would like them also to provide, names and references of character. Any university qualifications to be listed would also assist. A clear line of logic would also be nice, preferably one based on broad experience.
    p.p.s. If anyone wishes to comment on what I said, quote me, this saves a lot of the miss-understanding. Only an idiot rides without a helmet, fullface and neck brace provides best protection and is best.
    Where are your references, names, and university qualifications? Oh and where are the stats on this fact, I'm calling BS on your whole arguement.
    Wham, Bam, Thank You Ma'am!

  90. #90
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    ........

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    ......I am a trained scientist.....
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    ......I am not a scientist, just scientifically trained at uni.....
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    ....Statistics are not required for proof.....
    You can't make this stuff up. I thought you delivered on the powercordz thread, but this one is way better!


    /mental note: subscribe to CaveGiant's threads/

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by motormonkeyr6
    I've been borrowing one for moto, even then. I cant see myself EVER buying one if they stay at the silly price they are now....
    The $300 to buy a brace is small change compared to breaking your neck.
    Quote Originally Posted by holoholo
    why should I search google--when I can get a know-it-all like you to do it?
    Legend...

  93. #93
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    Wow thats crazy, i guess helmets cant protect everything, i still wear one no matter what.
    I make custom longboards PM me for more info

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by snow16boarderdud
    Wow thats crazy, i guess helmets cant protect everything,
    Wow, epic realization you just had. Glad it took this thread to help you with that.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    We can make as many assumptions on what else might be causing the problem, but have no evidence to back it up, so wasting our time there.

    So people are making a lot of assumptions to disprove the facts.
    If your assumption disproves a fact the assumption must be false.
    Again, you have presented NO FACTS. The statement by the doctor is opinion - the good doc might be an expert in TREATING spinal fractures or whatever, but that does make him an expert in what causes the injuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    A statistically significant proportion of people are having their neck broken in the same place, there is also a large reductions in jaws being shattered. Make up any story you wish as to why this is happening, but it is so you have to live with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    ....Statistics are not required for proof.....
    Where are these statistics - you know, the ones that are not required for proof? In fact, where are any facts or references to any amount research you performed to come to your conclusion? You have a couple off the cuff statements, one from a doctor, one from a response in this discussion. Looks like the only research you have really done on this is contained within this thread - ergo your "change of opinion"...


    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    So jumping back up to the above,

    Either learn from this info, or reject it.

    The power is in your hands.
    Once more, in case you weren't paying attention, good professor, you've presented NO verifiable info... How can one learn from that which has not been presented?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    p.s. just in case any wants to contradict me, I would like them also to provide, names and references of character. Any university qualifications to be listed would also assist. A clear line of logic would also be nice, preferably one based on broad experience.
    I'm just a dude that's been riding agressively since I was 14 or so... sometimes with helmets, sometimes not. Ask around. I've made no claims to scientific method, nor have I stated some position of higher learning. However, I'm not the one making factual claims out of thin air with noting to back them up. As for logic... Logic is pretty bird, tweeting in a meadow...

    Besides, you contradict yourself so well...

    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    ......I am a trained scientist.....
    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    p.s. I am not a scientist, just scientifically trained at uni.
    credibility woot!
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  96. #96
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    I ain't ascurrd of no paraplegarisation!

  97. #97
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    I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night .

  98. #98
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    This thread is teh awesomest. I hope that it will one day rival the "I'm feeling particularly all-mountain today" thread.

    Sounds like it's time for CaveGiant to cut his losses and come up with a new name for the MTBR forums.

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  100. #100
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    Versions of this same rumor have gone around for years in the motorcycle community. (beyond the full face helmet breaking your neck, they also say it's the helmet strap that will break your neck in a collision! ) Riders who don't want helmet laws always bring this stuff up to support their side of the argument.

    All the times I've seen these "killer helmet" rumors so far I've never seen any reliable evidence to support the claim. A friend who noticed a coincidence isn't the "scientific method" being used to do research. So I'm calling BS!!!!

  101. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiingya
    Versions of this same rumor have gone around for years in the motorcycle community. (beyond the full face helmet breaking your neck, they also say it's the helmet strap that will break your neck in a collision! ) Riders who don't want helmet laws always bring this stuff up to support their side of the argument.

    All the times I've seen these "killer helmet" rumors so far I've never seen any reliable evidence to support the claim. A friend who noticed a coincidence isn't the "scientific method" being used to do research. So I'm calling BS!!!!
    I live in CA. and can remember when the MC helmet laws arose - so many arguments against. You could probably argue against anything but the majority rules.

  102. #102
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    re:

    [QUOTE=jhazard]Again, you have presented NO FACTS. The statement by the doctor is opinion - the good doc might be an expert in TREATING spinal fractures or whatever, but that does make him an expert in what causes the injuries.

    Yawn - presented quite a few facts, I just don't think you understand what a fact is.

    Where are these statistics - you know, the ones that are not required for proof? In fact, where are any facts or references to any amount research you performed to come to your conclusion? You have a couple off the cuff statements, one from a doctor, one from a response in this discussion. Looks like the only research you have really done on this is contained within this thread - ergo your "change of opinion"...

    Statistics are generally used by advertisers to 'prove' something to someone who would not be able to understand real evidence. You should be able to appreciate the the results are statistically significant without applying your gargantuan knowledge of mathematics on aline of '8 out of ten cats prefer neck braces'

    Once more, in case you weren't paying attention, good professor, you've presented NO verifiable info... How can one learn from that which has not been presented?

    Are you expecting me to drive to france go interview this guy on a polygraph and post the conversation here.


    I'm just a dude that's been riding agressively since I was 14 or so... sometimes with helmets, sometimes not. Ask around. I've made no claims to scientific method, nor have I stated some position of higher learning. However, I'm not the one making factual claims out of thin air with noting to back them up. As for logic... Logic is pretty bird, tweeting in a meadow...

    I think you have made claims about my scientific method.
    So humour me, what is your level of training on both scientific training and statistical analysis?


    Besides, you contradict yourself so well...

    That is not a contradiction.
    Let me dum it down a bit for you.

    I have been on many bike training courses, therefore I am a trained cyclist.
    I have been trained on scientific method there fore I am a trained scientist.
    I can apply for a job and go work in a lab if I wish, however not my idea of a fun job.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  103. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by keen
    I live in CA. and can remember when the MC helmet laws arose - so many arguments against. You could probably argue against anything but the majority rules.

    There are arguments for and against anything.
    The experts at this have banned full face helmets from ski racing.
    They have placed restrctions on MC helmets.

    Yet because the 8/10 cats line has not appeared some of the 'experts' here don't seem to understand there may be a link.
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  104. #104
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    What is this feeling particulary AM today thread.

    If it is more car crash than this, it could be fun?
    Why would I care about 150g of bike weight, I just ate 400g of cookies while reading this?

  105. #105
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    It's just a funny thread that keeps going and going...

  106. #106
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    My favorite part of this thread is that your level of argument is declining like you're writing all this in a running car parked in a garage. Fantastic, here's some highlights:

    -presented quite a few facts, I just don't think you understand what a fact is

    -Statistics are generally used by advertisers to 'prove' something to someone who would not be able to understand real evidence

    I mean, you can't even make this stuff up! I'm off to the corner store to get some more fuel for this fire, I'll be right back.
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  107. #107
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    This is better than the Powerkordz thread , in that one you at least didnt make any claims of being a scientist .

  108. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by V.P.
    airbags can kill you too, should we remove all airbags now?
    Yes and replace them with railroad spikes. It will cut down the number of stupid drivers.
    "its not how slack your head angle is, its how you ride the bike"

  109. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebrahum
    I'm off to the corner store to get some more fuel for this fire, I'll be right back.
    grab me some too
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  110. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by froggy97

    You're more likely to be killed or paralyzed getting out of the shower, or walking down stairs, than you are riding a mountain bike.
    No more showering for me then. Or I should I wear my fullface in the shower (accompanied by my leatt of course)

  111. #111
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    got to jump in on this....

    CaveGiant, statistics are actually "evidence". They show the likelyhood of something occurring. One doctors opinion of how many neck injuries he sees is not conclusive evidence of anything.

    I'm not saying FF helmets do or don't cause more neck injuries, but more data needs to be analyzed in order to come to a reasonable conclusion.

    Also, you haven't presented any "facts". You've presented opinions. Facts are indesputable. Since the increase in popularity of full face helmets, the number of paralysations and broken necks is increasing rapidly. That's not a fact...it could be, but there is no evidence to prove it. To prove it, you'd need actual statistics...and not opinion surveys which is what I think you think "statistics" are.

    Basically what you "think" is scientific method, is not scientific at all. It's based on hearsay with no actual facts. That being said, do some research into the topic and then you might have a better argument, because right now you're not going to convince anyone.

  112. #112
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    No full-face or HANS (Leatt) device:


    With full-face and HANS (Leatt) device:
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  113. #113
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    My full face has already saved me from scratches and impact on one forward faceplant and a couple side impacts, so yeah...I'm sticking with it.
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  114. #114
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    I'll see what my buddies in the Whistler Bike patrol say.

    From personal experience I can say the idea of lift access has opened the idea of riding fast downhill to a whole class of people who'd never have pedaled bikes up the mountain just to ride down again. How many of those people are the "Mens Journal 10 extreme sports to try at home" readers it's hard to say. I'm sure there are more than a few that don't have a plan B for when they get over their heads.

    Call it peer pressure or Kodak courage or what have you I don't think I'll get a report with a lot of injuries on the mountain. Anecdotal evidence points to many more injuries like this to cliff jumpers here in BC that MTB riders.

  115. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    The experts at this have banned full face helmets from ski racing.
    They have placed restrctions on MC helmets.
    I did an admittedly quick search and found no news articles or notices that full face helmets have been banned from ski racing. I had wanted to read up on why, but came up short. Can you provide that link please? Or even if you could say if they banned moto-style full face helmets (which aren't used outside of freeski comps and skier cross) or if they banned chin bar helmets (like in slalom).
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  116. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Hi,

    A friend of my dad works for Chamonix hospital (spinal injuries guy, had a technical name i dodn't remember).

    Since the increase in popularity of full face helmets, the number of paralysations and broken necks is increasing rapidly.

    Aparantly if faceplanting at high speed previously the jaw would act as a crumple zone.
    Full face helmets tend to transfer the force to C2/3, either killing or paraplegising the crasher.

    Freaked me out learning that....no friking idea what to do now.
    So removing the jaw protection will increase change of cripling/fatal injury.

    **** **** **** what helmet do I wear now!!!!!

    argh
    I'm going to call ******** on this. You have no credible source, I'm surprised that so many people feel the need to respond to a simple opinion. I have wrecked an amazing amount of times at high speeds (50 - 65) on a dirt bike and wrecked right into my head without ever injuring my spine or neck. In fact, the helmet prevents injuries elsewhere because I'm able to just let my head hit into anything and not worry about it. Also, my helmet hits my shoulders comfortably without tweeking my neck any more than titling my head.

    EDIT: After reading through this thread I'm sorry I posted in it. Tons of straight up opinionated ******** and absolutely nothing substantial. I'm not sure why the idiots are claiming that full faces are actually bad, but they aren't showing any evidence and they aren't posting any sources to back up their ridiculous claims either. Why is this thread even still going?

  117. #117
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    When I lost my arm in '90 I was on a '76 Sportster & wearin' a turtle shell helmet. A guy turned in ft of me and I t-boned him on th passenger side, broke both feet, shattered & pulled my arm completely off just above the elbow, tore a tube from my kidney to my bladder & was bleeding internally, broke my jaw. The latter injury, according to the docs, was minimalized by the fact that I didn't have a full face helmet on. They said it would've snapped my neck like a twig had I been wearin' one. I believe them whole heartedly.
    "Why are you willing to take so much & leave others in need...just because you can?"

  118. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Statistics are generally used by advertisers to 'prove' something to someone who would not be able to understand real evidence. You should be able to appreciate the the results are statistically significant without applying your gargantuan knowledge of mathematics on aline of '8 out of ten cats prefer neck braces'

    Let me dum it down a bit for you.

    I have been on many bike training courses, therefore I am a trained cyclist.
    I have been trained on scientific method there fore I am a trained scientist.
    I can apply for a job and go work in a lab if I wish, however not my idea of a fun job.
    Statistics are not real evidence? Way to disprove hundreds of years of economic studies. Let me go and inform the masses now that statistically significant has been redefined by you to mean "appreciate the obvious results". Last I checked statistically significant meant something entirely different.

    You can apply to work in a lab, but likely won't get the job if you insist on "dum'ing" down anything and that statistics are not "real evidence"

    Trained in scientific method != scientist.

    me <- BA economics, MS statistics

  119. #119
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    why even wear a helmet when there's the safety bike?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  120. #120
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    Keep it up you guys.

    ...
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  121. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Hi,

    A friend of my dad works for Chamonix hospital (spinal injuries guy, had a technical name i dodn't remember).

    Since the increase in popularity of full face helmets, the number of paralysations and broken necks is increasing rapidly.

    Aparantly if faceplanting at high speed previously the jaw would act as a crumple zone.
    Full face helmets tend to transfer the force to C2/3, either killing or paraplegising the crasher.

    Freaked me out learning that....no friking idea what to do now.
    So removing the jaw protection will increase change of cripling/fatal injury.

    **** **** **** what helmet do I wear now!!!!!

    argh
    Seriously?
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  122. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    I have been on many bike training courses, therefore I am a trained cyclist.
    I have been trained on scientific method there fore I am a trained scientist.
    I can apply for a job and go work in a lab if I wish, however not my idea of a fun job.
    uh... are these facts or opinions?
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  123. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    uh... are these facts or opinions?
    Duh! They're unsubstantiated claims and therefore would be considered FACTS per CaveGiant.

  124. #124
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    No good

    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Yawn - presented quite a few facts, I just don't think you understand what a fact is.
    Okay, I must be missing something here, between the parts where you say you're a scientist, then say you're not, they say you are again. Here's the original post, care to point where the facts are here? Feel free to dumb it down for me

    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    Hi,

    A friend of my dad works for Chamonix hospital (spinal injuries guy, had a technical name i dodn't remember).

    Since the increase in popularity of full face helmets, the number of paralysations and broken necks is increasing rapidly.

    Aparantly if faceplanting at high speed previously the jaw would act as a crumple zone.
    Full face helmets tend to transfer the force to C2/3, either killing or paraplegising the crasher.

    Freaked me out learning that....no friking idea what to do now.
    So removing the jaw protection will increase change of cripling/fatal injury.

    **** **** **** what helmet do I wear now!!!!!

    argh
    I'm just asking YOU to provide EVIDENCE to support your claim of "Since the increase in popularity of full face helmets, the number of paralyzations and broken necks is increasing rapidly.

    The idea that a spinal injury doctor said it, is not supporting evidence, it is an opinion. MAYBE and expert opinion, maybe not. But it is OPINION. How popular are the helmets? How many were sold this year compared to last? The year before? How many paralysations occured in the last year? How many of these happened to people wearing full faces? How many to open faces? How many weren't wearing helmets....? Can you address any of those questions? Just making that statement does conclude it is a FACT... Have you read anything relating to this topic at all, do you have first-hand experience in testing such helmets? Anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    I think you have made claims about my scientific method.
    So humour me, what is your level of training on both scientific training and statistical analysis?
    Where did this happen? - I've looked back and cannot see it in the replies. Are you making stuff up again?
    I never claimed to be a scientist - YOU did. then you denied you were a scientist. Then you claim again to be a scientist (see below). Which is it? Or, because you say you are scientist, you are. Great. I'm the president of the world. All hail me. Have you earned a degree, doctorate, or some other credential from an institution of higher learning that would back this up in job search or something? (I'm not saying you didn't - just asking for clarification) I don't get it, you are a scientist, you're not a scientist, then you are a scientist... well?

    I've made no claims to my educational history (go ahead, wide open there) - I just try to make informed decisions. When I see a statement that doesn't seem ... "right", I question it, like I did with the OP. There has not been one shred of anything to back that statement up. So I question it. I'd have to read more about it in order to make an informed decision. That's why I initially asked if you had any supporting information... You don't. You just refer to generalized statements from people you are not directly associated with, which are not facts.
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  125. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhazard
    Okay, I must be missing something here, between the parts where you say you're a scientist, then say you're not, they say you are again. Here's the original post, care to point where the facts are here? Feel free to dumb it down for me



    I'm just asking YOU to provide EVIDENCE to support your claim of "Since the increase in popularity of full face helmets, the number of paralyzations and broken necks is increasing rapidly.

    The idea that a spinal injury doctor said it, is not supporting evidence, it is an opinion. MAYBE and expert opinion, maybe not. But it is OPINION. How popular are the helmets? How many were sold this year compared to last? The year before? How many paralysations occured in the last year? How many of these happened to people wearing full faces? How many to open faces? How many weren't wearing helmets....? Can you address any of those questions? Just making that statement does conclude it is a FACT... Have you read anything relating to this topic at all, do you have first-hand experience in testing such helmets? Anything?

    Where did this happen? - I've looked back and cannot see it in the replies. Are you making stuff up again?
    I never claimed to be a scientist - YOU did. then you denied you were a scientist. Then you claim again to be a scientist (see below). Which is it? Or, because you say you are scientist, you are. Great. I'm the president of the world. All hail me. Have you earned a degree, doctorate, or some other credential from an institution of higher learning that would back this up in job search or something? (I'm not saying you didn't - just asking for clarification) I don't get it, you are a scientist, you're not a scientist, then you are a scientist... well?

    I've made no claims to my educational history (go ahead, wide open there) - I just try to make informed decisions. When I see a statement that doesn't seem ... "right", I question it, like I did with the OP. There has not been one shred of anything to back that statement up. So I question it. I'd have to read more about it in order to make an informed decision. That's why I initially asked if you had any supporting information... You don't. You just refer to generalized statements from people you are not directly associated with, which are not facts.
    Dude, stop arguing pointless debates and go ride your bike (with a helmet of your choice)
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  126. #126
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    alright, I'll admit it, he got me. But common, seriously guys, by now, who hasn't smelled a dude shredding the internets on trollerskates. Statistics aren't evidence, they're for advertisers etc etc.... seriously? obviously a troll. But still the best non picture/video related thread ever to hit emptybeer DH forums.

    Zach dank, BuckoW, and Saber_MTB still have the best threads.

  127. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbabuser
    You forgot the L.
    didoL?
    ↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → B A Select Start

  128. #128
    Pee's in the H8teraid
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    Quote Originally Posted by klavius
    Numbers must be analized correctly.

    What are this numbers saying?

    1) Using full face helmets has increased the number of injuries and if they were using an open helmet would've reduced the injuries? If not using full face helmets, those injuries would be fatalities?

    2) Increase in full face helmet popularity has also increased the number of aggresive riders? So now more people feeling secure is riding faster and more dangerously?

    3) Are there more mountain bikers now than there were 5 years ago?

    Sorry for the english
    Winner!
    Alot of people think gear makes them invicible
    There are probably alot more riders now as well..
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  129. #129
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    The OP is absolutely correct, there has been an increase in spinal cord injuries due to helmet use...the increase is in direct proportion to the statistical fact that less people die as result of their injuries and simply end up as paraplegics or worse.

    You could say that your jaw bone provides a "crumple zone" for your face saving your spine but the reality is you would more likely die from blood loss or airway obstruction from a crash where your jawbone kept your spine from fracture.

    None of this is new information, motorcycle accidents where the rider is not wearing a full face helmet typically suffers from severe maxofacial injuries which kill the rider outright or shortly after arrival to the hospital from blood loss or airway obstruction.

    Saying helmets cause death is about as stupid as saying cigarette lighters cause cancer due to smoking, you can twist statistics anyway you see fit...I'll wear my helmet.
    "Say good night to the bad guy."
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  130. #130
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  131. #131
    Flying High Again
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    reminds me of an old seinfeld bit...


  132. #132
    Look at the time!
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    Since the increase in popularity of full face helmets, the number of paralysations and broken necks is increasing rapidly.
    Fear not, as I have statistical evidence of similar quality that clearly proves the opposite is true:


    1) There were no full face motorcycle or bike helmets in the 18th century

    2) everybody who was riding bikes back then is now dead.

    3) the full face bike helmet was invented in the 1970s

    4) most people from the 1970s are still alive and not paralyzed.

    Conclusion: Wear a full face helmet and you won't die.

    Study closed.
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  133. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndecentExposure
    Dude, stop arguing pointless debates and go ride your bike (with a helmet of your choice)

  134. #134
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    You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand this. Make your head larger and heavier and it will experience more g's and get displaced more in a crash. Attach a giant lever to your chin and you're way more likely to suffer a broken neck. The Leatt fixes this. Another important point is that full face helmets make it significantly harder for EMS/ER personnel to treat you.

  135. #135
    1+1
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    If you're crashing that hard, you're not doing it right.

  136. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1+1
    If you're crashing that hard, you're not doing it right.
    No, If you're crashing that hard you are doing it perfectly fine, now shake it off, rub some dirt in it, and do it again
    Wham, Bam, Thank You Ma'am!

  137. #137
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    I just want everyone to know I enjoyed reading this. good times.. good times

    I broke two in the neck and two in the back three years ago at Diablo. The doctor told my wife if I would have hit a little harder I would be in a wheel chair or dead.

    That means I can just sit back and enjoy all of this. good times.... good times
    I'm going to rob banks til I retire or get caught. Either way I'm set for life

  138. #138
    sixsixtysix
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    All of a sudden I just feel compelled to go hang out on PinkBike.

    What's next? Spandex gives you testicular cancer?

  139. #139
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    LA wore spandex
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  140. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    LA wore spandex

    Does that fall into the statistics category? Or the fact's category?

  141. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    Does that fall into the statistics category? Or the fact's category?
    Depends on if Highdell is a French doctor or not. Then it's fact without statistics. I thought we covered this.
    Don't you hate it when a sentence doesn't end the way you think it octopus?

  142. #142
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    it's a stafactictoid
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  143. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by zebrahum
    Depends on if Highdell is a French doctor or not. Then it's fact without statistics. I thought we covered this.
    I am still confused.

    I must have already hit my head too many times with my DOT full face to make any sense out of these complex topics.

  144. #144
    trail fairy
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixsixtysix
    I am still confused. <br />
    <br />
    I must have already hit my head too many times with my DOT full face to make any sense out of these complex topics.
    You've been making more sense since you've been wearing your DOT

    Man this thread has definitely hit its head too much, lost all perspective huh.

    End of day, yes nothing can save you when ya name is on the bullet but ya can do ya best to prepare for the stray ones!

    KISS Keep it simple stupid people and be safe!

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  145. #145
    Zach Kowalchuk
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    no helmet is going to prevent neck injuries. now, a full face helmet with a neck brace, your chances of neck injury drops dramatically, but not completely. If your scared to hurt yourself with a fullface, get a neck brace or grow a pair. **** happens.
    At the end of the day, my bike is a bike, whether its made for XC singletrack or DH, I can make it do what I want.

  146. #146
    trail fairy
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    Quote Originally Posted by zadey1234
    no helmet is going to prevent neck injuries. now, a full face helmet with a neck brace, your chances of neck injury drops dramatically, but not completely. If your scared to hurt yourself with a fullface, get a neck brace or grow a pair. **** happens.
    haha yeah, don;t go to war if ya don;t want to get killed, right!

    Stay at home and get shot in the hood instead
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  147. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailadvent
    haha yeah, don;t go to war if ya don;t want to get killed, right!

    Stay at home and get shot in the hood instead
    might as well

    Honestly... ahh I give up

  148. #148
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    Don't land on your face? Or wear a neck brace.

    Better yet, break your arms instead of your neck/jaw

  149. #149
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    So how many people have face planted witha full faced helmet, and walked away without a spinal injury? Also how many documented cases of people who have faceplanted with fullface helmets and received spinal injuries. What are the odds? 1 per 1'000? 1 per 100,000?

    Compare those odds with the chances of serious (facial, brain, dental) injury using an ordinary XC helmet compared to a fullface helment.

    I think you would have a greater chance getting a spinal injury from falling off a chairlift and , than from wearing a fullface helment.
    Last edited by Tim F.; 05-21-2010 at 08:35 AM.
    The guy yo' momma "act" like she don't know!

  150. #150
    Ride More - Suffer Less
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    hmmm full face or open....


  151. #151
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    The original poster suggested that full face helmets increased spinal injuries...thats all he said
    (take a second to THINK about it and its likely to be true, just the extent that is arguable)

    He didnt say this increase negated the good points of a full face helmet

    He didnt attack the view of Full Face users as being absurd

    He didnt act like a Pink - bike 12 year old



    Take the statement for what it was and quit acting like a bunch of kids who just got told their
    sister was a tramp
    DON'T TELL ME I'M STILL ON THAT FECKIN' ISLAND! ....

  152. #152
    Its got what plants crave
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrustyOne
    The original poster suggested that full face helmets increased spinal injuries...thats all he said
    (take a second to THINK about it and its likely to be true, just the extent that is arguable)

    He didnt say this increase negated the good points of a full face helmet

    He didnt attack the view of Full Face users as being absurd

    He didnt act like a Pink - bike 12 year old



    Take the statement for what it was and quit acting like a bunch of kids who just got told their
    sister was a tramp

    Are you also a scientist?
    Ocala Mountain Bike Association - www.omba.org

  153. #153
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    ^lol

  154. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Are you also a scientist?

    No

    Do you have a Point?
    DON'T TELL ME I'M STILL ON THAT FECKIN' ISLAND! ....

  155. #155
    Takw/agranofsalt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim311
    Are you also a scientist?
    He probably just stayed in a Holiday Express.

  156. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipRoar
    hmmm full face or open....

    Looks like he could have done with some ball nut protection, like a bra pad before he ate dirt, Joe Dirt
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  157. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidwoo
    The internet sounds like a tough place to ride.

  158. #158
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    FF Helmets don't increase the number of "spinal injuries", they decrease the number of "DEATH injuries"...

  159. #159
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    I wonder if there are more serious injuries with full face helmets because people wearing full face helmets take greater risks?

    Quote Originally Posted by stiingya
    FF Helmets don't increase the number of spinal "spinal injuries", they decrease the number of "DEATH injuries"...
    Exactly.

  160. #160
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    If i know im going down, I usually think "Tuck and roll, baby!"

  161. #161
    percocet pioneer.
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    My new full face helmet is indestructible and proven by scientists.


  162. #162
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    ummmm. after seatbelts became mandatory in cars accident rates rose drastically. simply because people thought they were safer and more invincible.
    I'd huck that...

  163. #163
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    [quote=horse of iron]ummmm. after seatbelts became mandatory in cars accident rates rose drastically. simply because people thought they were safer and more invincible.[/quote

    Sorry due but saying that is typical of the mis information spread on forums!
    Out the crack pipe down lol.

    And as silly as this thread title!

    Its not the seatbelt that kills, like the rifle or handgun, they are more deadly and powerful too, yet we've been killing each other as effectively 1000 years ago as now!

    the difference in all these aspects is the technology when combined and used properly is effective! but the progression is often out of kilter wit the riders progress and use of what is available!

    That is proven but many here refuse to acknowledge this and want to be cool, so be it your mellon!

    Will these advances save everyone no! but it will reduce and save many as with the seatbelt it has proven! The fact is for a domestic car its the most convenient safety device not the best, but look at any top sports car truck racing beyond doubt, racing has never been so safe, is it safe no that's why people do it, its not tidly winks!

    But its safer than its been, no doubt like us they could be done better, e.g devices technoloy etc!

    Ignorance won;t help ya when ya lying in hospital buddy, and its not if its when ya have a good one, if ya do it long enough it will happen!

    But people can turn a blind eye to that too, how prepared you are will determine how ya ride through it or avoid it.
    Just riding a muddy trail. . ..

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  164. #164
    tardcore
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    You decide; FF helmet or not? Not much riding on it but natural selection. Good luck, webtards.

  165. #165
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    So I searched this topic because I took an ER nursing job in Park city utah during the summer which is the busy season for mountain biking. I noticed that two bikers that ended up having cervical fractures while I was on shift were both wearing full face helmets. The first one I don't remember well but the second I remember because the cause of injury was very minor. I saw the video of the person riding and I was surprised it caused a neck fracture.

    As many people stated there are endless variables to add to this like over confidence from feeling safer, riding beyond their skill level, new bike they aren't familiar with, not knowing how to fall, wrong sized helmet or not secured tight enough or at all etc.. and who knows if the injuries would have been worse with a regular helmet. but the fact remains. The long face guard DOES give things u may hit like rocks and trees to have more leverage on your neck.

    What I would like to know is, are there full face manufactures that have shorter face guards that would give the full face protection with a reduction in length to decrease leverage on the neck?

  166. #166
    Front Range Colorado
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    As a physician, here's the thing. In an ER you see the freak occurrences, and if your not mindful of the fallacy of selection bias, you can be led to some entirely erroneous conclusions. So yes, it might be the case that some small percentage a serious crashes with a full face result in Death or paralysis by way of C spine fracture because of a lost opportunity to have crushing of lower jaw, upper jaw and face cushion the blow. But this in no way implies the majority of such full face crashes result in this outcome. So what we don't see in the ER are the greatly outnumbering cases where the full face helmit prevented the skull and brain from being the crumple zone, thereby saving the riders life, allowing them to walk away never having even gone to the ER. Here's another example. We have seen bad head on collisions with seat belt on, where the torso (or just the spine) gets severed from the pelvis, due to the tremendous g force of such collisions. And that's why all us docs constantly remind our patients of the danger and foolishness of wearing a seatbelt while driving...
    not!
    :madman:

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  167. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mi5anthr0pist View Post
    So I searched this topic because I took an ER nursing job in Park city utah during the summer which is the busy season for mountain biking. I noticed that two bikers that ended up having cervical fractures while I was on shift were both wearing full face helmets. The first one I don't remember well but the second I remember because the cause of injury was very minor. I saw the video of the person riding and I was surprised it caused a neck fracture.

    As many people stated there are endless variables to add to this like over confidence from feeling safer, riding beyond their skill level, new bike they aren't familiar with, not knowing how to fall, wrong sized helmet or not secured tight enough or at all etc.. and who knows if the injuries would have been worse with a regular helmet. but the fact remains. The long face guard DOES give things u may hit like rocks and trees to have more leverage on your neck.

    What I would like to know is, are there full face manufactures that have shorter face guards that would give the full face protection with a reduction in length to decrease leverage on the neck?
    And yes, there are those occasions where there is a worse outcome with FF Helmit due to chin bar acting as lever arm. (This also happens with motorcycle helmets) But of course, it is very unlikely that on the whole the chin bar is a liability. And as you correctly point out there are so many variables that would confound such a statistical analysis. (Remember that on the whole, people who use parachutes are more likely to die by way of falling from a height greater than 1000 feet than those who dont use them!) But that having been said, it would be interesting to know if chin bar/face guard length could be (has been?) optimized along these lines.
    Joe
    :madman:

    "When debating a fool, retreat is the only option"
    Richard N Busternutt

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