Commuter who does not wear helmet: to ride with or not- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Commuter who does not wear helmet: to ride with or not

    I came upon someone one day and rode with him. He was cool we chatted and went our separate ways. 2 days later our paths intersected again and as I came up on him I noticed he was not wearing a helmet. Just a ball cap.

    I was disappointed as I do not like to ride with those that are unhelmeted so I just continued past, said "hi", picked up the pace to catch the near light green and continued on home.

    Roadbike review said I am" an ******* for judging him and should have rode with him and taught him through example". I say "it's you funeral and I want nothing to do with it".

    Since 90% of bike fatalities occur in unhelmeted riders I want nothing to do with them. Selfish I know.

    Was I an ******* or how would you have dealt with it?
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  2. #2
    M_S
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    It's dangerous to be within 10 meters of him. Count yourself lucky.

    Do you really think that helemts could prevent that large a number of fatalities? I don't, even though I almost always wear one. I think your statistic has more to do with the type of people who wear helmets versus those who don't than the actual effectiveness of helmets in saving lives. Which I'm sure they do, just not as much as people like to think.

    What I mean is, people not wearing helmets are probably more likely to be inexperienced riders darting back and forth off of the sidewalk, riding against traffic, etcetera. The lack of helmet was not the detrming factor there, it was the fact that they didn't know what they were doing.

  3. #3
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    I have gone OTB on the street without a helmet (got doored) and didn't like the results one bit. So I always wear a helmet.

    That said... it's not your job to save every idiot in the world. How does this person not wearing a helmet affect your safety? Not at all. Presumably he's an adult and can make his own decisions, and deal with the consequences.

    Who you ride with is your choice. If you don't want to see someone smash their head on the pavement, that's fine with me. Don't be a d!ck about it is all I suggest.
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  4. #4
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    I think the 90% statistic is just that, in 90% of cycling fatalities helmets were not being worn. No mention of the type of rider or the accident type but if you figure that even 75% of those accidents would have been fatal even with helmets then 25% of those accidents were people slipping in gravel and hitting their heads and dying.

    Heck even make it it 10% who would have been saved if they only worn a helmet that is 10% of 90% that would have lived had they worn a helmet when they fell at a stop light and hit there head on a curb.

    When I mountain bike I consider anyone that shows up on a ride unprepared for the ride to be a burden on the entire group. Anything happens and the whole group needs to sacrifice ride time and their supplies to help out this one individual. Show up like that at coupla times and people stop inviting you.

    This is no different. I don't want to be responsible for this person if we both get taken out, or touch wheels and crash. No helmet and a simple crash could me I watch you die. It can happen in a flash, if you have ever been hit you know what I mean. Boom. Selfish sure.

    That said I also want to reiterate that I said "hi" as I passed. Not being a dick as most road cyclists that pass me hardly ever acnowledge my existence in any way, shape or form. I just chose not to ride with him.
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  5. #5
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    Who cares what roadies say? I look at it this way- if this person has the same insurance company I do, gets seriously injured and insurance pays his bill, we're all affected. With the new helmets being so light, cheap, and well ventilated there is no reason not to wear one. The only time I ever take mine off is if I'm doing a long steep uphill grunt on singletrack in the middle of nowhere on my MTB, and as soon as the pace picks up over 6-7 mph it's back on. Most cities around here it's law to wear one and for good reason.

  6. #6
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    I do not wear a helmet on the road. I wear one when I ride off road. I have tried wearing a helmet all the time. Where I live cyclists do not get much respect, but motorists usually do not know what to do when approaching a bicycle, so they give a lot of space when they pass. When I wore a helmet I was constantly passed illegally (within the 3ft from the handlebars per Wisconsin state law) and it was quite scary.

  7. #7
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    On a commute you don't have to ride with someone if you don't want to. No need to even have a reason. Personally, I think there are a ton of other more valid reasons for not riding with someone than whether or not they are wearing a helmet.
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  8. #8
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    me too for helmet on trail but not on road. i dont spend as much time on the road though.

    i dont know if that kills my credibility, but personally, i think it shouldnt matter what safety precautions a fellow commuter takes, largely because it seems unlikely that it will have any impact on you. i understand on a trail, far away from people, phones, etc, you have the burden of making sure a downed rider is ok. but on a commute?

    if you rode with him before and the only reason youre not is cause of lack of helmet...
    well that does seem kinda excessive, not riding with him just for that. then again, i think labeling you whatever they did at roadbike review sounds kinda excessive too.

    bottom line, i dont agree with your reasoning not to ride with him. but its your call and its stupid for people to tell you what to do. im sure you werent a jerk about it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by chucko58

    Who you ride with is your choice. If you don't want to see someone smash their head on the pavement, that's fine with me. Don't be a d!ck about it is all I suggest.
    What chucko58 said ^^^^

  10. #10
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    You're choice I suppose....

    It does kind of make you sound like a dick, and rather selfish. But hey, it's a free country and you have a right to ride or not ride with whom ever you want. But the fact that you are asking both here and on RBR kind of sounds like you don't feel right about it. You want other opinions to back you up in your feelings and decision not to ride with the guy. You don't want the resposnibility of having to call 911 or the discomfort of possibly watching a fellow human being die in front of you. Well that's up to you. But do keep in mind that it is a responsibility and a possibility that we all share in each and every relationship with another human being that we have. If you take that attitude in avoiding these possibilities you may as well shut yourself up in your house, pull all the blinds and toss out every form of outside communication and become a hermit. Because every person you know will some day die, and they may do it in front of you whether you are comfortable with it or not. This fellow is willing to take the risk of riding without a helmet. So how is that an skin off of your nose. You don't have anymore resposibility toward him than you would should a helmeted rider you were with have an accident. You'd still have to call 911 and the possibility watching this person die. Though the likelyhood of a helmeted ridier croaking on the spot is less, it still happens.

    Personnaly I revel in all the relationships that I have with others. Each and every one that I have changes me and enriches my life. And every relationship and interaction is important, from the relationship I have with my family to the simple brief interations that I have with people I come in contact with while working. So why limit yourself just because the dude don't wear a helmet? Limiting yourself because someone might get hurt or die is silly. If this is the case then you may want to rethink every other personal relationship in your life, cause everybody dies. How is not their choice in most cases.

    Anyway, your call and your choice. But I think it's silly. The "I won't associate with you because you aren't like me or us" attitude is a little outdated, don't you think?

    Good Dirt
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  11. #11
    DPL
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    I hate riding with people who arn't wearing helmets and have, in the past, made excuses just to avoid riding with them but where I live, (UK), it's their choice. If I'm with someone who doesn't have a helmet I always offer to lend them one of mine while gently making the point that I really would prefer them to wear it (I don't like watching people get hurt), but if they refuse, it really is up to them.

  12. #12
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    You would think that something so simple and proven as a helmet wouldn't cause any uproar yet many people admit to not wearing one on the road as a choice.

    I am surprised by that more than anything. I would rather ride off road without a helmet vs. on the road, because off road you are pretty much the only variable, whether you fall or crash is predicated by whether you choose to ride or not ride a section. Rarely will a 4000lbs object come flying out of a side trail and force you off your bike to the ground. On the road you are just one part of a complex set of interactions between so many different variables. Doors, parking lots, right turners, trailers are out of your control. I am willing to accept that I need to wear a helmet, blinking light, and whatever safety equipment will give me the greatest chance of making it home or to work.

    That said I respect anyones choice to make a choice but I reserve the right to support it.

    The final comment I have to make on this is that as a person in society you make choices, your choices effect you and others, when you chose to do something dangerous it is not only you that is effected, the repercussions spread wide and far. If you slip on gravel and smash your head into brain damage it isn't just you that is affected. Your family, spouse, coworkers and friends will all wonder why you didn't wear a helmet since it was such a simple crash. As an extension of this one could say the same thing about riding a bike in general when you get obliterated by a car running a red light. Why was he/she commuting in the first place if he/she had been in their car they would still be here. Having experienced this first hand I can tell you it is not a pleasant experience. The questioning about the persons motives, why was he there? why didn't he look over his shoulder? why wasn't he wearing his helmet? Not pleasant.

    Selfish? Who is really being selfish in their actions?

    but as commuters we accept the inherent dangers of commuting but why add to it?
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  13. #13
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    Here's my take on the whole helmet/ non helmet thing...and i'm sure i'm going to start a war here... I ride about 50% of the time with one, the other 50% without.. it all depends on what im doing... raping and pillaiging the local singletrack, helmeted... cruising around the local college campus, sans helmet..
    It's a free country, if another rider doesnt want to wear one while im out at the local trails.. who cares. Its not my noggin, its his or hers...

    I will say this tho..
    being in the fire service for the past 13 years, i have responded to bicycle accidents more times than i can count.. Some had helmets, some not.. I would say that 90% of the time, they were cyclists hit by motor vehicals..
    Picking up someone hit by a car is not a pretty sight, helmet or no helmet. They have alot more going on behind the scenes than meets the eye, usually more internal injuries than external.. These patients need flown to an level 1 trauma center for accute medical care.. You'll see them enter the ER when the helo arrives, the ER will stabilize them, the ship them directly to radiology for a full CT.

    Im not trying to start a war, or create tension here on the boards.. I love this forum, and the riders who post here.. But I tend to get a little edgy when i read posts about helmets etc.. I have absolutely NO doubt helmets do save lives, or help to lessen injuries.. But I also think that some of the time these injuries are completely out of our control.. we could ride in a big inflated bubble, but who wants to do that..
    Passion in this sport is many different things to many different people.. To me.. my definition of passion is the FLOW... theres nothing on this earth that equals the feeling of fast flowy singletrack, wind blowing by, sun shining, and just ripping awsome singletrack...
    its all about the ride, not the destination..

    Theres two things wrong with the fire service today.... EMS and PMS
    EMS i can deal with....

  14. #14
    M_S
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    rockcrusher, I do think you are overestimating the protection offered by a helmet. I wear one 95% of the time, but bicycle helmets are designed for low-speed impacts, say if you lose traction, slip, and hit your head at 5 mph. They are not designed to protect against an impact with a car. This is why you hear so many people saying that they wear one on the trail but not on the road. The trail is where most impacts are low-speed: not only that, but they happen fairly frequently. In that case a helmet may offer significant protection fairly frequently.

    On the road, low-speed collisions can happen, say if you fail to iunclip at a stoplight and hit your head on a curb. But those are much, much more infrequent occurences when compared to the number of crashes on-trail. And in the really serious road crashes, helmets often probably don't do a whole lot. Again, I almost always wear one. The exception being a 1.5 mile cuise to downtown on the multi-use trail.

    Helmets are fine. However what I can't stand are the people who equate helmet use with safe riding. Plenty of people wear helmets but ride very dangerously. They are much more likely to put themslves or others in danger than someone who rides safely and predictably, but doesn't ride with a helmet. I would rather ride with the latter person, wouldn't you?

  15. #15
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    i hate to break it to you, but the helmet isnt going to necessarily save you in an at-speed collision with a car.
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  16. #16
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    Selfish? Who is really being selfish in their actions?
    yeah thats a slippery slope. once you start accusing helmetless riders of being selfish, youve opened yourself up to scrutiny of your criteria of what makes something selfish or not. i could simply take it one step further and say it is selfish for cyclists to ride their bikes and put themselves in danger. especially if its non-commuting.

    if you disapprove of riders sans helmet because you think hey, a simple step could make them safer (like seatbelts), then thats cool. but once you start making judgement calls about their character (i.e., selfish), that seems less than cool, no?

    as for squashs comment:

    But I think it's silly. The "I won't associate with you because you aren't like me or us" attitude is a little outdated, don't you think?
    haha, naw, that attitude will never be outdated. unfortunately i find that attitude is the most commonplace and prevalent of human group mentalities. i agree with what you said about relationships, but yeah, i think (cynically perhaps) that the "us vs them" attitude will never change. people let all sorts of things polarize them. i mean look at all the examples around us. in politics is dems vs reps. within dems its obama vs clinton. in race relations. gender issues. religious sects. heck even in biking, road vs mountain. within mtb, xc vs dh, etc. sure theres plenty of people who get along across the lines. but theyre the great exceptions. most peoples instincts are to make enemies out of differents.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher

    Was I an ******* ?
    Yes.

  18. #18
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    Were you a jerk? When you think about what you did, do you feel guilty? Do you think you would consider a person a jerk for riding away without explanation? If you said yes to both then there you have it. I tried preaching about helmets years ago but when you think about it, it is their lives. Call it Darwinism at its best, if they don't think the brain is worth preserving then maybe its not.

  19. #19
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    A Jerk? No, maybe a little passive agressive.

    He choose to ride how he likes and you did the same. You were civil so whats the problem.

    Regarding a helmets ability/inability to protect you in various accidents, what the hell is the down side of wearing a helmet? Is it going to spare your melon from a speeding car? Probably not, but its definatley not going hurt it.

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  20. #20
    DPL
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayneosdias
    Regarding a helmets ability/inability to protect you in various accidents, what the hell is the down side of wearing a helmet?
    That's pretty much how I think. I have to say I'm very, very much pro helmets and personally I'd like to see everyone who rides on two wheels wearing one, but I know that isn't going to happen. That said, I really don't see what some people's problem with wearing a helmet is. I only wear hard shell helmets (currently a TSG Evolution) and I can wear it for hours, even in hot conditions and it isn't too unbearable, and at the end of the day I know I've done at least something to maybe try protect myelf if I do come off for whatever reason. Even the smallest hit to the head hurts and frankly, if something has a chance of protecting my head to any degree surely it has to be better than nothing.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher
    I came upon someone one day and rode with him. He was cool we chatted and went our separate ways. 2 days later our paths intersected again and as I came up on him I noticed he was not wearing a helmet. Just a ball cap.

    I was disappointed as I do not like to ride with those that are unhelmeted so I just continued past, said "hi", picked up the pace to catch the near light green and continued on home.

    Roadbike review said I am" an ******* for judging him and should have rode with him and taught him through example". I say "it's you funeral and I want nothing to do with it".

    Since 90% of bike fatalities occur in unhelmeted riders I want nothing to do with them. Selfish I know.

    Was I an ******* or how would you have dealt with it?
    Did you just not notice the first time, or was he wearing one then?

    As far as riding with the unhelmeted, well -- you have the absolute right to ride with anyone, or with no one. Why is immaterial. I don't think the guy thought you were being a d*** for not conversing (that would be a bit arrogant, thinking the other guy was already hung up on your friendship).

    RBR is loaded with roadies, hence the opinions are worth 'negative diddely-squat' here. If roadies ran the bike world, then the Santa Cruz Nomad wouldn't exist (and I would be sad).

    The 90% bit, I think you're taking a bit out of context -- stats show that in 88% (close to 90, right?) of bike accidents, head injuries are reduced/avoided. Impressive numbers, but my own experience is all I go by; a cracked helmet and several near-missed-concussions are all I need. And since I work with bikes daily, I advocate helmets, and I demand that my daughter wear one when she rides with me (she doesn't leave the property on her bike w/o me, either).

    Bottom line -- you dissed him that day, don't think he cared, but if you see him again, make the conversation about that, be cool about it, and maybe you can: a.)get him to wear one; or b.) accept that he's gonna do what he sees as good and right for himself.
    A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....

  22. #22
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    I'd rather dislike riding with people who have no idea on how their bike works or how to fix it properly. You know they always will have some issue and ask you to fix it. I always avoid such people. If you want to ride with me, you better be able to lace a wheel or no ride.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrusher
    Was I an ******* or how would you have dealt with it?
    I think the only way he wold have known you were being an a-hole would be to read this thread. Really why do you care one way or another about his choices?

    I think the whole "choices and repercussions" argument you make is a thinly disguised way of saying you simply don't like it and therefore you'll alienate a person for not conforming to your methods.

    I mean think of it this way. What if a motorist said....'Dude, I really need you to stop biking to work becasue I may end up turning you into a grease spot and I simply can't live with that repsonsibility. I mean come on, it's a proven fact that in most bicycle/car accidents 99.99% of the drivers don't even spill their coffee...why even take the chance of being on that two-wheeled death machine..."

    I think Snowden said it best in his earlier comment....

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  24. #24
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    I'm liberal and don't much care if one offs himself or not. Its his freedom. Then again, I don't want to pay exhorbitant taxes for ones recovery from a closed head injury. I guess that makes me libertarian

    If I think he knows better, then I don't say anything. If I think he does not know, then I would certainly say something. I wouldn't mind riding with him either way though. Can't spend all your time around like minded people.

  25. #25
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    i think it is interesting that no one has commented on the driver's perspective of hitting a cyclist. i don't own a car, but i do end up driving my girlfriend's car sometimes, and it really makes me feel uncomfortable when i pass a helmetless cyclist. if you die, you don't care, but if a driver hits you and you die because you weren't wearing a helmet, it is a very unfortunate situation for the driver.
    i have been riding bikes for a long time, but two years ago i decided that riding without a helmet was a stupid idea, and since then, i wear one while riding my bike no matter what i am doing. as a cyclist, especially when you are commuting on the road with cars, it is ignorant to think that you are in control of your situation and safety. accidents aren't intentional, as the very meaning of the word, so to assume that you won't be hit by a car because you are an experienced cyclist is just plain silly.
    i have been fortunate to not have been hit by a car yet, but i don't think it is impossible, (even though i pride myself on being a very aware cyclist) and that is why i wear a helmet. i would feel like an idiot if i got seriously injured because i wasn't wearing a helmet.
    i find that most cyclists on the road have a ridiculous sense of entitlement. these are the kind of people that are more prone to being hit by a car in my opinion. i have ridden with people who seem to think that the world should stop for them because they are riding a bike (running stop lights and stop signs, riding on the wrong side of the road, frequently switching from road to sidewalk...).
    in the end you have to be smart about riding with cars (and follow their rules), and one of the ways to do that is by wearing a helmet. i see guys here in colorado that ride their motorcycles without helmets and i think that is absolutely insane. if you can easily improve your chance of survival, why wouldn't you?
    i am not going to write a disclaimer saying "to each his own" because i don't believe that. if you don't wear a helmet, you are affecting everyone around you. spend the 20 bucks for a cheap helmet instead of buying some stupid accessory for your bike. it is the best investment you can make.
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  26. #26
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    Excellent point I guess most of us just thought of the accident only having 1 victim. I do drive and I agree coming up on a cyclist without a helmet can be sketchy, I usually give an even larger berth. I am biased and think most of these riders don't have a clue what they are doing. Regardless if they are guys on K-mart specials or 5k dollar bike.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekes
    I'd rather dislike riding with people who have no idea on how their bike works or how to fix it properly. You know they always will have some issue and ask you to fix it. I always avoid such people. If you want to ride with me, you better be able to lace a wheel or no ride.
    Either you have a REAL dry sense of humor, or you need to pull that splinter-laden stick out of your sphincter.
    A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigpedaler
    Either you have a REAL dry sense of humor, or you need to pull that splinter-laden stick out of your sphincter.
    I wasn't kidding and my sphincter is just fine, works well. maybe you should check yours?

  29. #29
    I'm SUCH a square....
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    No problems here, I'm a perfect a$$hole.
    A bike is the only drug with no bad side effects....

  30. #30
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    seriously, how annoying can it be when you're riding with someone telling him how you adjusted your cup and cone bearings with great precision, and how you bolted your stem on at 8Nm, and then him asking what a bearing is.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekes
    seriously, how annoying can it be when you're riding with someone telling him how you adjusted your cup and cone bearings with great precision, and how you bolted your stem on at 8Nm, and then him asking what a bearing is.
    I'd hate to be your kid. If everyone had this attitude where would newbies go to learn? Bike school?

    Everyone has to start somewhere and at some level. I realize that some folks just don't have the time nor patience to take the uneducated under their wing and show them a thing or too. On the flip side, taking time to explain things to people is just good old fashioned human interaction and bonding that promotes growth and general interest in any genre, which is beneficial for the industry as a whole. But if every newbie that took an interest in bikes ran into elitest snobs who act as if their shite don't stink and had the "go away, kid, you're bothering me" attitude, biking would be the exclusive province of asssholes.

    Guns, cars, computers, photography, home theater, gaming.... there's a guy like you on every forum.

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