What do you all think about coil sprung AM setups- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    What do you all think about coil sprung AM setups

    I'm bike shopping and have a few questions about these full coil all-mountain bikes shops are suggesting to me (particularly, the '12 Spesh Enduro Evo (the yellow one) and the Giant Reign SX).

    Cliff notes version -- I want a new 6"+ am bike that will pedal/climb as well as my air-sprung Jamis XLT, but give me a little more for coming back down. How will these coil-only bikes pedal? Not concerned about weight as much as pedal bob and energy lost ...

    Long version -- I think of myself as a true "all-mountain" type rider. About 40% of my riding is on mostly downhill trails mixing in maybe 1k elevation gain, eg, Wasatch Crest, TWE/Porcupine (as least LPS down, never climbing up from the road), Mt. Ashland (ski area to Lithia Park); 20% resorts/bike parks, eg, Black Rock, Deer Valley/Sundance, and 20% is more xc-oriented, eg, Midmountain trail (Park City), McKenzie River, Slickrock, other random trails I might have occasion to ride that have ups and downs. I might do more bike parks next year if The Canyons keeps going with their lift-accessed park, so the percentages might change a bit. I'm looking for one bike to shred Wasatch Crest/Porcupine, keep up at the bike park and Black Rock, and not make me too mad on the xc-stuff.

    I'm 6'0, 225-240# depending on the time of year. I've only ever had air-sprung suspension, and have never spent any time on a coil bike to speak of; I have ridden a coil Giant Glory at Northstar a couple times, but obviously never pedaled it. I wandered in to a couple bike shops this weekend to see if I could catch any end of year closeouts. The Spesh shops had a couple left over Enduro Comps, but after describing my riding style, were kind of pushing me toward the Enduro Evo (the yellow one w/ X-Fusion coil fork and shock). I rode it around the parking lot and down a flight of stairs a couple times. It was really bouncy when pedaled, but it had a medium springs on it, which at my weight, obviously was not enough. I went to the next shop to check out their left-over Yeti ASR 7's (currently my favorite), and after showing me the Yeti, the guy said "come check this out" and led me over to a Giant Reign SX, which was running a Fox Van and a coil rear end. In both cases, the bikes I came in to look at were more expensive than the bikes that the salesmen ended up suggesting, which made me very curious. I didn't ride the SX because it was raining and again, it only had medium coils on it.

    My problem is, I'm not likely to be able to put meaningful time on a bike w/ springs for my weight. I don't want a pogo stick (which the Evo kinda felt like). I understand that a properly tuned coil will be more "plush" coming down hill, especially at my weight. That said, I've never been unhappy w/ the plushness of any of my air-sprung bikes.

    Your thoughts? Has anyone ridden a coil-sprung all mountain bike that climbed well enough? Thanks in advance...
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  2. #2
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    I use a ccdb on my Tr. Covert. Coil is all about grip but if you also want a platform to pedal on then go ccdb on your coil. The hi/lo compression adjust works extremely well on them. Not a pure"lockout" but close. Your suspension design has alot to do with it too. Obviously they'll weigh more as well. @ 155lb I can set my compression damping easily for nice climbing.

    They have their db air coming out which should be nice. I did try out a Pushed RS Monarch on a Knolly yesterday that was matched with a Lyric RC2. damn nice! I guess if you want more "pop" off and on to things air would make that easier.

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    I had an '07 Reign X1 and I thought it pedaled great - the suspension was efficient but active and the geometry was really well balanced, but since I'm 150lb it was just too heavy for me for trail riding. At your weight, it would not hurt as much, and once you got the right springs installed you should be happy with how it rides.

    One thing - the Reign SX is set up for slopestyle, with a single ring etc, where the Reign X1 is set up for AM riding.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tystevens View Post
    In both cases, the bikes I came in to look at were more expensive than the bikes that the salesmen ended up suggesting, which made me very curious.
    I feel your pain. I wish the shops in my area carried better inventory as well.

  5. #5
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    I would personally get a Monarch Plus from Push, air shock but designed to act like a coil. Pair it up with a Pushed Lyric, and you will be unstoppable. Both going up and coming down! Buy a used bike and put all your money into upgrading the suspension. A Reign X is a great bike to start with. (not the SX) I ride a Reign and it pedals very well.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tystevens View Post
    I
    Cliff notes version -- I want a new 6"+ am bike that will pedal/climb as well as my air-sprung Jamis XLT, but give me a little more for coming back down. How will these coil-only bikes pedal? Not concerned about weight as much as pedal bob and energy lost ...
    Not sure any 6"+ bike is going to pedal like an air-sprung 4" trail bike regardless of shock selection (despite what the brochure may claim). For sure you will be able to tune out some of the bob you felt in the parking lot test by selecting the correct spring, and dialing in the other adjustments. For the type of riding you described I went with coils because I prefer it to air spring on the downhill and I can live with the extra weight on the uphill. Ask the LBS if they can help you swap it back to an air-sprung bike if you end up hating the coils?

  7. #7
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    with the right spring and tune it should pedal pretty much the same as its air shocked counterpart.

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    Ccdb is best of both worlds at your weight and riding I think.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsrxc View Post
    I had an '07 Reign X1 and I thought it pedaled great - the suspension was efficient but active and the geometry was really well balanced, but since I'm 150lb it was just too heavy for me for trail riding. At your weight, it would not hurt as much, and once you got the right springs installed you should be happy with how it rides.

    One thing - the Reign SX is set up for slopestyle, with a single ring etc, where the Reign X1 is set up for AM riding.
    Thanks for the input. The SX's that this shop had were all set up w/ a 2-ring front, bash guard, and chain guide. Which is pretty much exactly what I'd want.

    Yeah, I'm not concerned much about the weight of the bike. But at my weight, I have to push the pedals pretty hard to go up, and it seems that that is just exaggerates the bobbing.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristatos View Post
    Not sure any 6"+ bike is going to pedal like an air-sprung 4" trail bike regardless of shock selection (despite what the brochure may claim). For sure you will be able to tune out some of the bob you felt in the parking lot test by selecting the correct spring, and dialing in the other adjustments. For the type of riding you described I went with coils because I prefer it to air spring on the downhill and I can live with the extra weight on the uphill. Ask the LBS if they can help you swap it back to an air-sprung bike if you end up hating the coils?
    Yeah, I know I can't expect too much out of any one bike, regardless of what the website says. But the Yeti ASR 7 I rode in Moab last month climbed just fine -- seemed on par w/ my Jamis, at least, maybe better w/ the Propedal engaged. I actually thought that the Yeti was fantastic. But the guy at the bike shop wasn't as big a fan, and if a guy who knows what he is talking about is trying to talk me into a bike that is $1000 cheaper, I'm willing to listen! I've got plenty of time to explore all my options. So I thought I'd dig in to them a little more. I appreciate all of the input.

    I've heard coils are great on these bikes coming down. Honestly, I like the idea of coils, as I'm more of a 'set it and forget it' type. So if a coil shock that is well tuned can provide a reasonably stable platform for pedaling, I'd be all over it.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikingboy View Post
    Ccdb is best of both worlds at your weight and riding I think.
    What is a ccdb? I assume it isn't "Colorado Criminal Defense Bar," which is what Google suggested...
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by motochick View Post
    ...Pair it up with a Pushed Lyric [sic]...
    where does one get a Pushed Lyrik?

  13. #13
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    It's the ferrari of rear shocks.....cane creek double barrel. I have one on my DH and just put one on my AM this past weekend and wow.....what a difference from the DHX-air.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tystevens View Post
    But the Yeti ASR 7 I rode in Moab last month climbed just fine -- seemed on par w/ my Jamis, at least, maybe better w/ the Propedal engaged. I actually thought that the Yeti was fantastic. But the guy at the bike shop wasn't as big a fan,
    If you're looking at Yeti too maybe check out the SB66 - that's supposed to pedal sweet but I doubt you'll find any closeouts - maybe a deal though from a motivated bike shop. If you are liking the ASR7 though why not score one? Seems like you're sold on that bike and the guy at the bike shop isn't helping the cause - it's gonna be your bike not his right?

  15. #15
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    I'd def. go coil, especially at your weight, air shocks damping stops working when they heat up.

    Also, a coil will have less preload so it's possible it will not pedal as well, but that depends on the frame. VPP, Maestro and DW Link will pedal better with a coil shock than FSR/Single Pivot.

    I think the Reign X is a great deal, also a Nomad with PUSH link and coil shock would be awesome. The Enduro Evo is pretty sweet but Spec has a more active sus which tends to bob more on longer travel bikes, esp. w/ coil shocks, so it may not pedal as well as others with the short-link sus design (VPP, etc).

  16. #16
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    I ride a 2011 Reign SX. My prior bike was a 2007 Enduro SL. When i bought this frame my Enduro frame was pretty worn out and I wanted something that would be beefier, better at going down and at least as good going up. I originally was planning on the reign X but Giant only had the SX available. I can honestly say that it is a better climber than the Enduro, which had a air shock. It wont climb like an XC race bike when your standing and hammering but what big travel trail bike will. From what I can tell the Maestro suspension just doesn't need a pedaling platform. I started with a double up front but have switched to just running a single sprocket, its efficient enough for me climb anything without trouble.

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristatos View Post
    If you're looking at Yeti too maybe check out the SB66 - that's supposed to pedal sweet but I doubt you'll find any closeouts - maybe a deal though from a motivated bike shop. If you are liking the ASR7 though why not score one? Seems like you're sold on that bike and the guy at the bike shop isn't helping the cause - it's gonna be your bike not his right?
    The SB66 looks like a decent bike, but it is only spec'ed with a 32 mm fork (right now, at least), and I definately want as much strength up front as I can get. And I'm just not sure about the eccentric-link suspension -- seems a little gimicky to me. Last time out we were derailed by another unique suspension design (Kona); I like simple and hard to break! Or at least tried and true like the Maestro seems to be.

    As far as the ASR 7, well, I'm not in a huge rush, and they weren't giving a screaming deal on it -- if I can save a grand, all the better. Plus, when I go to a shop w/ a great reputation, and the guy suggest a bike saying that it is what all the shop guys are trying to get their hands on, I figure it doesn't hurt to investigate a little bit. I know, salesmen are like everyone else, and tend to like/recommend what they ride themselves. But with my Jamis, I didn't even know about the brand when a salesman suggested it to me. It has been a great bike, and I'm glad he did.
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  18. #18
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    Coil is only for aggressive all mountain. Regular all mountain is air sprung.

  19. #19
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    In my experience, coil is just as efficient as air. Air used to be more "efficient" because there was some inherent stiction, but for many years now, air shocks have (thankfully) gotten very smooth. How efficiently the bike pedals has to do with the suspension design and, depending on the the frame, the shock's damping characteristics.

    In terms of plushness, air forks and shocks can be every bit as plush and smooth these days, or at least close enough that it is, IMO, a non-issue.

    IMO, the reason to go with coil or air are the inherent spring properties of each. Coil is linear, air is progressive, and the progressiveness can vary depending on the volume of the air canister.

    With regards to frame shocks, frames tend to be designed around a certain spring type, so I would consider what frame you are looking at in order to determine which spring type is more appropriate. Stick a coil on a frame designed for a small volume air shock, and you might be blowing through the latter half of the travel really fast. Stick an air shock on a frame designed specifically for a coil, you might not see all the travel. I have encountered both scenarios in the past.

    Forks are a little more straight forward, as the forks movement follows the spring curve of the coil/air spring directly. Personally, on longer travel forks, I have so far preferred coil. On shorter travel forks, I'm happy with either, but they feel quite different.

    FWIW, I don't think you can expect a 6" bike designed and built for some of the riding you are describing to pedal as wall as a light 4-5" XC bike. Not sure how good of a climber your XLT is, so I cannot comment on that.

    To answer your last question directly, I thought my old Heckler with the 5th Element Coil climbed very well.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  20. #20
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    ^^^This is well said.

    if you want the feel of a bike that rides well with a coil, make sure you get a bike that handles one well. Since a lot of the new AM bikes are moving towards more linear travel rates there is a bunch to chose from.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post

    IMO, the reason to go with coil or air are the inherent spring properties of each. Coil is linear, air is progressive
    This just isn't true in real life. If you look at a force vs displacement graph of a rp23 w/ high volume air can you will find it is very close to linear. And a RC4 is progressive, as are most all dh shocks, because of the boost valve.

    The only reason to go with air is to save weight, and you will compromise performance. All air shocks heat up on long downhills and the damping goes to $h!t, they turn into pogo sticks. The Vivid Air is the only exception and most riders would only use it for shorter courses vs. the Vivid coil.

    Of course it depends on the kind of riding you do how big of a deal the issue is. If you're racing xc you could argue an air shock performs better and probably be correct.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    This just isn't true in real life. If you look at a force vs displacement graph of a rp23 w/ high volume air can you will find it is very close to linear. And a RC4 is progressive, as are most all dh shocks, because of the boost valve.
    Actually, real life is exactly where it is true, in my experience. If you do want to look at graphs, graph a Float w/HV can along with a coil shock set up for the same frame and rider, and they will look different, even besides the linear/progessive aspect. Yes, the HV air can is "close" to linear on the graph, but small differences on a graph in this case means a noticable difference in how it works. "Close" on any graph is a meaningless term if you don't establish what amount of change is meaningful. Expand the "force" axis enough and that HV air can will be very much curved and progressive looking. In real life I've swapped a coil for an AVA at max volume (about the same as a HV air can) and there is a big difference in how they settle into their sag. The graph I mention above explains this.

    Regarding coil shocks being progressive, yes, many have some sort of progressive (usually adjustable) damping to help towards the end of the stroke. However, progressive damping is not the same as a progressive spring rate. they feel very different. Take something like a Heckler with a falling rate, and try it with an air shock and then a coil with the end of stroke damping cranked way up. Very, very different. In this application, I think air was the better choice

    The only reason to go with air is to save weight, and you will compromise performance. All air shocks heat up on long downhills and the damping goes to $h!t, they turn into pogo sticks. The Vivid Air is the only exception and most riders would only use it for shorter courses vs. the Vivid coil.

    Of course it depends on the kind of riding you do how big of a deal the issue is. If you're racing xc you could argue an air shock performs better and probably be correct.
    I guess we'll just disagree on this one. I've used both air and coil front and rear, and never ran into the issues with the damping going out on an air shock. But like you said, it is likely dependent on application. I'm not running these on DH bikes on race courses. But then, this is the AM forum, not DH/FR.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Actually, real life is exactly where it is true, in my experience. If you do want to look at graphs, graph a Float w/HV can along with a coil shock set up for the same frame and rider, and they will look different, even besides the linear/progessive aspect. Yes, the HV air can is "close" to linear on the graph, but small differences on a graph in this case means a noticable difference in how it works. "Close" on any graph is a meaningless term if you don't establish what amount of change is meaningful. Expand the "force" axis enough and that HV air can will be very much curved and progressive looking. In real life I've swapped a coil for an AVA at max volume (about the same as a HV air can) and there is a big difference in how they settle into their sag. The graph I mention above explains this.

    Regarding coil shocks being progressive, yes, many have some sort of progressive (usually adjustable) damping to help towards the end of the stroke. However, progressive damping is not the same as a progressive spring rate. they feel very different. Take something like a Heckler with a falling rate, and try it with an air shock and then a coil with the end of stroke damping cranked way up. Very, very different. In this application, I think air was the better choice



    I guess we'll just disagree on this one. I've used both air and coil front and rear, and never ran into the issues with the damping going out on an air shock. But like you said, it is likely dependent on application. I'm not running these on DH bikes on race courses. But then, this is the AM forum, not DH/FR.
    Here in CO we have long downhills and after 5 min I can get off my bike, test my shock (rp23) and there is no damping and no rebound.

    Also, the boost valve on a dh shock effects the spring rate as well as the damping.

    If you want to claim a hv rp23 isn't close to linear, just look at it:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/turner/dw-5-s...od-503070.html

    PUSH plotted the spring curve. It is VERY close to linear, for all intents and purposes it is.

    Really, you cannot generalize that one type of shock is progressive and one is linear, that just isn't true anymore. It used to be more true, but not with the offerings that are available today. My whole point is that an RC4 is FAR more progressive than a rp23 with a hv air can.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Here in CO we have long downhills and after 5 min I can get off my bike, test my shock (rp23) and there is no damping and no rebound.

    Also, the boost valve on a dh shock effects the spring rate as well as the damping.

    If you want to claim a hv rp23 isn't close to linear, just look at it:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/turner/dw-5-s...od-503070.html

    PUSH plotted the spring curve. It is VERY close to linear, for all intents and purposes it is.

    Really, you cannot generalize that one type of shock is progressive and one is linear, that just isn't true anymore. It used to be more true, but not with the offerings that are available today. My whole point is that an RC4 is FAR more progressive than a rp23 with a hv air can.
    _dw link isn't for aggressive all mountain. Start riding all mountain.

  25. #25
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    I recently switched over to coil on my Nomad! I went from a DHX Air to a RC4 coil in the rear,and from a Lyrik air up front to a 2011 36 Van up front! As far as pedaling is concerned,I did not feel any drop off with the RC4, alot of credit goes to the low speed comp. adj. In the front I may actually switch back to air to shed a little weight! In my experience,the coiled rear is bigger difference than the forks! I will be sticking with a coil out back (alot has to do with my weight, im 6-2 220, always had to add to much air in the shock to support me,which took away from the shocks performance!) Up front,I was just as happy with a air fork, the Lyrik DH 160-170 is great!

  26. #26
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    The industry is flooded w/ air shock's because they are lighter and easier to give a "blah tune" right off the showroom floor. Blah tune refers to being able to just adjust main air pressure w/o any control of the air spring volume - very cookie cutter performance especially if you are not your average weight rider.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    Here in CO we have long downhills and after 5 min I can get off my bike, test my shock (rp23) and there is no damping and no rebound.

    Also, the boost valve on a dh shock effects the spring rate as well as the damping.

    If you want to claim a hv rp23 isn't close to linear, just look at it:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/turner/dw-5-s...od-503070.html

    PUSH plotted the spring curve. It is VERY close to linear, for all intents and purposes it is.

    Really, you cannot generalize that one type of shock is progressive and one is linear, that just isn't true anymore. It used to be more true, but not with the offerings that are available today. My whole point is that an RC4 is FAR more progressive than a rp23 with a hv air can.
    I've done long downhill runs countless times, and never lost my damping on any shock. I think something is wrong with your rp23. 5 minutes is a pretty short DH run, it should not be crapping out like that.

    The graph shown in that thread is very compressed on the force axis. Spread it out, plot it next to a coil, and the difference will be noticeable.

    Your initial comment regarding the difference I noticed in how the bike settles into it's sag being due to the pre-load on an air shock is probably correct. However, that is part of the the air design, and is not unrelated to it's progressiveness.

    I'll look into the boost valve for the RC4. My understanding is that while it does technically add some small amount of actual air spring resistance, it is pretty minor. Also, while this will add some bottoming protection, it still differs from a HV air can in how it behaves through the mid stroke (a big plus for the coil there)..
    Last edited by kapusta; 11-23-2011 at 12:23 PM.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  28. #28
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    I personaly can't stand the feel of air shocks, and have never owned a air shock or fork. Currently, I'm running a CCDB with a Ti spring, and a Marzocchi RC3 fork with a Ti spring on my trail bike/super d race bike.

    One other thing is that you never hear of a coil suspension system that's designed to mimic the feel of air suspension.
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  29. #29
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    This year I switched my DHX Air on my nomad to a Elka Stage 5. What an improvement in ride quality. I'm a big dude as well but have been getting smaller. I'm 6'3 and have dropped from 250 to 200 during the course of this summer, so the DHXA might feel better now.

    Now I'm seriously considering switching the Elka for a Pushed Monarch Plus. The guys at Push seem confident they can meet or exceed the performance of the Elka with the Monarch+ and it would drop between 1.5 and 2 lbs off the bike.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vader View Post
    One other thing is that you never hear of a coil suspension system that's designed to mimic the feel of air suspension.
    Interesting perspective, although it's not totally true.

    I run a Marzocchi Z1 Light on my AM bike and it's a 1 side spring, 1 side air fork. I like the progressivity of the air to prevent bottoming out on this fork. A progressive sring is desirable to a certain extent if you ask me. The Z1 Light was designed with an air side to save weight but it turns out it's very tunable at the same time. You can run it without air if you are not too heavy after all.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissedOffCil View Post
    Interesting perspective, although it's not totally true.

    I run a Marzocchi Z1 Light on my AM bike and it's a 1 side spring, 1 side air fork. I like the progressivity of the air to prevent bottoming out on this fork. A progressive sring is desirable to a certain extent if you ask me. The Z1 Light was designed with an air side to save weight but it turns out it's very tunable at the same time. You can run it without air if you are not too heavy after all.
    I have a Z1 Light on another bike that was converted to a dual coil because I weigh 180#. I don't use the air preload in the RC3 either. Both are great forks for me and my style of riding.
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  32. #32
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    I believe coil is smoother and heavier. Ive heard of those diehards that use air in the back. However, IVe always used coil and Im not switching..

    Bikes are getting lighter. IF Im an all mountain guy, or aggressive all mountain, I cant see why a little extra poundage is going to make any difference. It might rip the legs a bit on the uphill. Maybe, I don't think one would notice. In addiction, on a bike like the Reign x the Maestro system sucks the bike to the ground when peddling up hill. Ive owned three giants. All great bikes. Ive had a 2008 and 2o10 Reign X. Both are the best for uphill and down...

    For all mountain I would go with a giant Reign x. 2oo8 or up. Cant go wrong with the Reign x. The Stumpy Evo is lookn sweet. Reign x is stronger for down hill. I also like Santa Cruz...

  33. #33
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    I, admittedly, speak without experience on the matter, but the idea that a coil in the rear inherently means a harder time climbing doesn't make sense to me. If someone could explain, I would appreciate it. My reason for disagreement is that a lot of rear air shocks blow through the mid stroke on climbs. Considering going coil myself now. The weight shouldn't hurt as my bike is doing good.

  34. #34
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    I've got a 2008 reign x1. Its the only full suspension bike I've ever owned so I have nothing to compare it to but I use it for absolutely everything from mammoths bike park to 5000 vertical ft cross country climbs on fire roads. I'm 6' and 185lbs. Even though the bike is on the heavy side I still feel like it pedals great once I figured it out. You really can't pedal out of the saddle very efficiently, but when you stay seated and focus on moving the pedals in a circular motion I can get up just about anything. The big tires and plush suspension really help the bike stay hooked up on some of the technical ascents compared to my hardtail.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    _dw link isn't for aggressive all mountain. Start riding all mountain.
    Really? Maybe you should have told that to Sam Hill when he was dominating the world DH circuit a few years back. Or maybe you should tell Brian Lopes he can't ride his Ibis down A-line at Whistler.

    The Banshee Rune has very similar characteristics to a DE, and it is the routing of an aggressive AM-Enduro bike.

  36. #36
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    For me, living in a developing country, not having a huge income, and being a slightly heavier rider, I like coil. The last thing I want is air forks or shocks crapping out on me. Fit and forget, and the extra weight is fine. If I had the money I'd buy Ti springs. I remember watching the Megavalanche from a few years ago and remember Brendan Fairclough killing an air-shock, which ruined his result.

    I worry though, as some AM bike frames really aren't really designed for coils. I remember that the Diamondback Mission was one of them, any more?

  37. #37
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    "I'm 6'0, 225-240# depending on the time of year"

    that sentence sums it up for me..go with coil.

    I used almost every types of shocks over the years, i was between 210-220 untils recently(now 180lbs) and my conclusion is that air shock just dont work well for people over 200lbs, coils is just better. somehow when you use air at +200lbs, you have to pump it more than its "sweet spot" and you lose the good apsects of the different settings..with coil, the spring strenght will be adjusted to your weight and the sock will remain in its sweet spot.

    Under 200lbs you can get decent results with air shock.

    So far the shock i like best is the Elka stage 5, so much tunability, every click can eb felt and paired with a Ti spring the weight gain is not bad.

    go for coil!
    expensive cars are a waste of money. Expensive bikes...not so much!

  38. #38
    ZEN RIDER!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    _dw link isn't for aggressive all mountain. Start riding all mountain.

    i think you need to ride a bird & take a trip to CT
    Life in every breath

  39. #39
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    Well, my decision was made easy for me, as I wandered in to a LBS and came across a very clean '11 Enduro Expert test bike at about 40% off msrp. I'll see if I can manage a photo:

    Yes, it has full Fox air suspension. We'll see how it goes. Frankly, I got the bike so cheap that I could upgrade the rear shock (Push or even a new coil shock) and still come in at or under the msrp of a '12 Enduro Evo. But I sincerely appreciate everyone's input and advice as far as the coil suspension. Something to think about if I don't like how it is riding once the summer comes.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What do you all think about coil sprung AM setups-2011-11-25-21.04.11.jpg  

    Last edited by Tystevens; 11-28-2011 at 09:45 AM.
    '19 Ibis Ripmo
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  40. #40
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    You are not even close to the factory target weight, so throw any conception of the factory feel out the window. Keep in mind a shop can crank up pressure on air shocks for demo rides to match your weight, so make sure you have the shop throw on a spring that is correct for your weight before you go for an true test ride on the coils. At your weight you will need a different spring no questions.

    If you talk to anyone in the MX or cycle suspenion industry, factories tune the bike for the average sport rider in the 150-170 region. As you can see, you are going to blow through anything from the factory.

    Given your going ride park, I would recommend a coil shock overall, and the Reign SX and Enduro Evo are both legit, solid choices.

    Once you get a bike, I recommond you upgrade the bike right away to a Ti coil that is correct for your weight. You wont regret it.

  41. #41
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    nice! important thing is xmas came early for you!

  42. #42
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    Please get a pair of high quality pedals because the current one looks like it would fold just riding on the road.

    Well back to topic. My AM bike, a Santa Cruz Nomad Carbon has is coiled up at te front and back. Van and a RC4 at the back. It is really good on the choppy stuff and at the same time able to handle bigger drops without blowing through all of it's travel.

    IIRC, the RC4's boost valve activates only at the last 1/3 of the travel and there is a rubber bottom
    Out gromet thingy. So it definitely isn't linear towards the end of the travel.

    Anyway nice ride, my buddy has the exact same one and he loves it. Cheers

  43. #43
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    Coil will always be better than Air.

    Hence why every other sport is still rocking Coil overs.... You cant get consistent dampening with air with low maintenance intervals.
    Gamut
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  44. #44
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    Even at a lightish 175lb max all geared up- I'll still vote a coil rear if the frame design can work with a coil. Switch to coil for rear and never look back and my frame with a progressive linkage works just fine with a coil.. Tried 2 air shocks but just can never get the sweet feel the coil gives. And ti coil for me does make a diff over the stock steel ones. For lack of better words, it gives less of a "dead" feel. Front still on air but veering towards coil as well as I begin to feel that over long sustained descents-- air tends to go out of whack in the way the suspension behave when things heat up.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by doom102938 View Post
    Please get a pair of high quality pedals because the current one looks like it would fold just riding on the road.

    Well back to topic. My AM bike, a Santa Cruz Nomad Carbon has is coiled up at te front and back. Van and a RC4 at the back. It is really good on the choppy stuff and at the same time able to handle bigger drops without blowing through all of it's travel.

    IIRC, the RC4's boost valve activates only at the last 1/3 of the travel and there is a rubber bottom
    Out gromet thingy. So it definitely isn't linear towards the end of the travel.

    Anyway nice ride, my buddy has the exact same one and he loves it. Cheers
    What, you don't think the plastic shop pedals will hold up?

    Just kidding ... I put my Kona platforms on there shortly after the picture was taken, but first things first, right?
    '19 Ibis Ripmo
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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haus Boss View Post
    Really? Maybe you should have told that to Sam Hill when he was dominating the world DH circuit a few years back. Or maybe you should tell Brian Lopes he can't ride his Ibis down A-line at Whistler.

    The Banshee Rune has very similar characteristics to a DE, and it is the routing of an aggressive AM-Enduro bike.
    Yes, those two ride around their equipment's deficiencies very well!

    Banshee, now that's getting into passive-aggressive AM which is very much compatible.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by motormonkeyr6 View Post
    Coil will always be better than Air.

    Hence why every other sport is still rocking Coil overs.... You cant get consistent dampening with air with low maintenance intervals.
    LOL, You'd better tell Tucker Hibbert that!
    FOX / Snow / Team / Tucker Hibbert
    Fox Evol-X air shocks are dominating the Sno-X circuit and have been for the past two years. Major recent improvements have made this argument all the more intriguing. I run both high end coil overs and airs on my sleds and prefer the airs so...

    Ignorance is bliss,

    G MAN

    PS - I do admit I use coil overs for my FR and DH bikes but my trail bike uses PUSHed air f&r and it kills it. Bottom line - well setup air shocks/forks flat out work!
    Last edited by Gman086; 11-30-2011 at 10:37 AM.
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    LOL, You'd better tell Tucker Hibbert that!
    FOX / Snow / Team / Tucker Hibbert
    Fox Evol-X air shocks are dominating the Sno-X circuit and have been for the past two years. Major recent improvements have made this argument all the more intriguing. I run both high end coil overs and airs on my sleds and prefer the airs so...

    Ignorance is bliss,

    G MAN

    PS - I do admit I use coil overs for my FR and DH bikes but my trail bike uses PUSHed air f&r and it kills it. Bottom line - well setup air shocks/forks flat out work!
    Another fine example of a person riding around their equipment's obvious deficiencies.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    LOL, You'd better tell Tucker Hibbert that!
    FOX / Snow / Team / Tucker Hibbert
    Fox Evol-X air shocks are dominating the Sno-X circuit and have been for the past two years. Major recent improvements have made this argument all the more intriguing. I run both high end coil overs and airs on my sleds and prefer the airs so...

    Ignorance is bliss,

    G MAN

    PS - I do admit I use coil overs for my FR and DH bikes but my trail bike uses PUSHed air f&r and it kills it. Bottom line - well setup air shocks/forks flat out work!
    They do work but being heavier at 6-2 215lb geared,I could never get them dialed,had to add too much air for proper sag and the shock would have terrible small bump! Never tried Push though! I agree about the Fox Evols, insanely tuneable,had them on my MX YFZ450 & they are the dominant force in Quad MX as well. Although the matching rear shock for this setup is a coil!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What do you all think about coil sprung AM setups-dfr2.jpg  


  50. #50
    EastBaySteez
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    LOL, You'd better tell Tucker Hibbert that!
    FOX / Snow / Team / Tucker Hibbert
    Fox Evol-X air shocks are dominating the Sno-X circuit and have been for the past two years. Major recent improvements have made this argument all the more intriguing. I run both high end coil overs and airs on my sleds and prefer the airs so...

    Ignorance is bliss,
    Just because air shocks are dominating a PRO riding circuit doesnt mean the stuff we get as regular buyers is worth a *****.
    What they are running is custom tuned in every aspect...
    Gamut
    Team Evil
    Formerly: motormonkeyr6

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    They do work but being heavier at 6-2 215lb geared,I could never get them dialed,had to add too much air for proper sag and the shock would have terrible small bump! Never tried Push though! I agree about the Fox Evols, insanely tuneable,had them on my MX YFZ450 & they are the dominant force in Quad MX as well. Although the matching rear shock for this setup is a coil!
    got nothing to add to the this thread but - that quad looks like whole shitload of fun waiting to happen socalMX!

  52. #52
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    Nothing like hitting a 80 foot step up jump pinned in 4th gear!

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tystevens View Post
    Well, my decision was made easy for me, as I wandered in to a LBS and came across a very clean '11 Enduro Expert test bike at about 40% off msrp. I'll see if I can manage a photo:

    Yes, it has full Fox air suspension. We'll see how it goes. Frankly, I got the bike so cheap that I could upgrade the rear shock (Push or even a new coil shock) and still come in at or under the msrp of a '12 Enduro Evo. But I sincerely appreciate everyone's input and advice as far as the coil suspension. Something to think about if I don't like how it is riding once the summer comes.
    Great deal and great bike! You can live with air but I recommend switching out both ASAP. Throw an RC4 or better on the back and the most adjustable version of the 36 van/lyrik coil/55 on the front. It will make a world of difference.

    I run an RC4 in the back(my first coil) and I am sold, I will never run air front or rear again. I will be converting my Totem from air to coil before next season ( I seriously regret getting the Totem Soloair this summer). When I go DHing lack of plushness really stands out. My hands and arms get rattled to death. We are simply too heavy for air to work nearly as good as coil...
    6'5" 230lbs
    My Build: Vitalmtb - Bike Check

  54. #54
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    Agree with the above. I love mountain biking, but really miss mx atv. Rode the evols on a LTR 450 and they soaked up everything effortlessly. Nice YFZ, they handled much better for me than the LTR.

  55. #55
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    I believe that the Enduro has to use a customized Fox RC2 if you want to run a coil. You'd have to buy it straight from Specialized. Its for the Enduro Evo.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    Nothing like hitting a 80 foot step up jump pinned in 4th gear!
    Sick ride socal!
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by anvil_den View Post
    Front still on air but veering towards coil as well as I begin to feel that over long sustained descents-- air tends to go out of whack in the way the suspension behave when things heat up.
    When I had my rear shock on air, 5 minutes or more on a rough downhill would send it out of whack, not so much the air fork, Fox Float 180 RCL2 (set at 160 travel ). If I was doing longer runs down then it might become a problem.
    I did have a coil fork on my AM bike but getting the right spring set up just got too hard.

    Spring selection for me was easier when setting up the rear shock.
    Air has & is getting better but not quite to the level of coil.

    Nice ride

  58. #58
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    I have a Giant VT frame which is 5.7" travel single pivot with linkage driven shock. I actually use a Manitou 3 way swinger with a 3 way pro-pedal facility. Hers the rub I never use the pro-pedal because I can't be bothered to fiddle the bike just works. Pro-pedal is for riding on roads if you ride AM over rocks roots ruts etc if you like "off piste" trails coil will be best.

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