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  1. #1
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    Percieved risk V actual risk and controlling the monkey mind.

    Mountain biking is interesting in the fact that in many situations going faster is safer.

    The monkey in your mind screams "No! dangerous, go slower"
    Don't hit that gap or stepdown or blaze through that root section as fast as you can.

    But when you man up and hit that line at speed the track becomes smoother, easier, and way less risk of crashing.

    If you let the monkey decide and go slower through those sections the track is rougher, harder to ride and you are more likely to injure yourself.

    So the percieved risk in your mind is wrong. The actual risk is higher going slower for the types of features than need speed and commitment.

    Also when looking at my risk adverse buddies who generally a controlled by the monkey mind and my risk taking buddies i see that the risk takers are not injured more than the risk adverse. Quite the opposite, the risk adverse have had the most sever injuries. This is further evidence that going faster, commiting more, controlling the monkey mind is better.

    Discuss.

  2. #2
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    There's an appropriate range of speed (which is partially dictated by skill level) for each feature. That knowledge comes with experience. Yeah, some people ride features dangerously slow but lumping that in with whether or not you choose to ride a feature isn't a good argument. Riding pro lines at the DH park is definitely more dangerous than putting around a NICA XC course. The evidence is the number of serious injuries most pro enduro/DH riders have had vs the average Joe on regular singletrack.

  3. #3
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    While sometimes true, that faster is better, you don't get comfortable in that situation by just letting go of the brakes and hoping for the best. You work your way up to feeling in control and confident through experience, by understanding the limitations of your equipment and skill level. Riding outside of that is unadvisable.

  4. #4
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    I went on a group ride with someone who was on their first trail ride. They broke their arm trying to jump a double they had no business trying.

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    I'm pretty much Exhibit A here. I missed BMX, never rode dirt bikes, so I have almost no frame of reference for appropriate speed over obstacles/technical terrain. My monkey mind is also exceptionally adept at envisioning what can go wrong.

    I also ride alone a lot, so don't often get to watch others and can't afford to have a serious accident, although most of the trails I ride are not remote.

    I am rather cautious and fairly slow to develop skills. I still have a good time riding though.

  6. #6
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    Going faster is always more dangerous.

    If you cant safely clear something slowly, its a dangerous feature and hitting it faster is inherently dangerous.

    In mountain biking you basically always risk going down. Ive seen people eat it pretty bad on a flat section of trail with no features at all. Skilled riders at that. I think the admin here cracked his skull riding a flat fire road.

    If you want to be a faster rider and you want to hit bigger stuff, you're going to crash, and its probably going to be really bad at some point.

    People get cocky and think they can beat the system. If you only hit that huge step down faster, you'll be fine! Those people break their spines and never ride again.

    Ill risk a bone fracture. I can swing a cracked bone these days Its a dangerous sport, thats alright! But dont kid yourself into ever thinking its not. Thats when people get sloppy.

  7. #7
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    Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the skill set v risk assessment part. You need to understand your skill set and how that applies to the trail. Riding well above your skill or at the very points end of hour ability is where the accidents happened .

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    Looking back now, the worst injuries I've had where from me trying to push things outside my comfort zone and/or not paying enough attention to what I was doing. Not paying enough attention also includes being overconfident and just relying on muscle memory on sections of trail that I've ridden a ton.

  9. #9
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    Theres a difference between going so slow your wheel catches and not too much braking your suspention doesnt work right. And going Mack chicken.

  10. #10
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    One of the most painful wrecks I have had (no serious injuries), was on a square dropoff (chunk of sidewalk deposited in the trail) of no more than a foot. I didn't ride it because I didn't like the runout (short and I was afraid the drop would knock me off line) So I decided that I would roll my bike over it while astride it to see where the bottom bracket hit (if it hit), etc. etc. That turned into the slowest of slow motion endo crashes where I remained tangled up with the bike. Hurt like a mofo (hands went down weird on rocks, racked, frame bouncing off bones and meat), and untrued my rear wheel pretty good.

    Most of my subsequent crashes I have managed to get off the bike to a greater or lesser degree and roll with it with very little damage at all, to me or the bike, and they have also occurred at speed, if not appropriate speed.

    This was very early in my career, but a real good object lesson that some of the worst crashes occur at less than ramming speed, i.e. barely moving.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post

    Discuss.


    In theory, maybe. That said all of my bad accidents have occurred at speed, and going slower would have almost certainly prevented all of them.
    I brake for stinkbugs

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Going faster is always more dangerous.

    If you cant safely clear something slowly, its a dangerous feature and hitting it faster is inherently dangerous.
    So pedal wheelies off drops are always safer than just riding off the same drop with some speed?

    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    If you want to be a faster rider and you want to hit bigger stuff, you're going to crash, and its probably going to be really bad at some point.

    People get cocky and think they can beat the system. If you only hit that huge step down faster, you'll be fine! Those people break their spines and never ride again.
    The key is knowing your limits and not getting in over your head.

  13. #13
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    In other words, this is a decision about whether to go off the cliff slow and roll-hit everything on the way down or just go off at speed and splat at the bottom .... hmmmm .... me so confused now

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by s0ckeyeus View Post
    So pedal wheelies off drops are always safer than just riding off the same drop with some speed?



    The key is knowing your limits and not getting in over your head.
    I was going to ask something similar. Another is a 3'-5' step down with a great run out to gap a steep rock garden full of front wheel grabbers. If you have the skills to ride that either way, fast or slow, fast and gapping it is almost always less risky.

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  15. #15
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    IMO it comes down to 1. Choosing your line 2. Visualizing what's going to happen as you ride that line before you actually do.

    This means you need to work your way up to doing more advanced things gradually. When you attempt to advance your skills it's scary because #2 is not assured. With a gradual approach you are more likely to be within a margin of error that will allow success. When you hit something and are too far off on your prediction it will lead to failure.

    My injuries have been a result of riding trails with jumps in them blind. Sometimes you don't want to stop for everything, hold your friends up, etc. but don't ride jumps blind, ever. Even in a bike park on a busy Sunday afternoon...

    If a move requires full commitment, like a jump or a steep roller, if you're riding blind you can't be assured you can find and visualize your line, yet you're fully committing, at a certain point there is no turning back.

    Fear of anything also makes you more likely to experience what you're afraid of. In all parts of life. Fun stuff!

  16. #16
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    Some stuff you can ride too slow, some stuff too fast. I thought that was obvious.

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    all else being equal, you are more likely to get a worse injury if you crash when going faster. I know for a fact (the hard way) a 25mph crash is usually a lot worse than a 5mph one. I have 2 25mph crashes, dozens of 5mph ones.

    The 5mph one you often laugh about afterward.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahJohn View Post
    all else being equal, you are more likely to get a worse injury if you crash when going faster. I know for a fact (the hard way) a 25mph crash is usually a lot worse than a 5mph one. I have 2 25mph crashes, dozens of 5mph ones.

    The 5mph one you often laugh about afterward.
    Not true for all trail features. You cant hit any gap slower than whatever critical speed is required to make the distance. Below that speed you are more dangerous than going faster.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Some stuff you can ride too slow, some stuff too fast. I thought that was obvious.
    As evidenced by replys here. It's not obvious to some people.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    As evidenced by replys here. It's not obvious to some people.
    I'd guess that there's a really wide range of terrain/features etc that people are referencing here... and probably a wide range of experience and commitment. That said, often times I find speed is your friend.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahJohn View Post
    all else being equal, you are more likely to get a worse injury if you crash when going faster. I know for a fact (the hard way) a 25mph crash is usually a lot worse than a 5mph one. I have 2 25mph crashes, dozens of 5mph ones.

    The 5mph one you often laugh about afterward.
    You're ignoring a variable here. If the crash wouldn't have happened because you were going faster then the slow spees crash is more likely to cause injuries.

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    Same here, all serious crashes, ie broken bones/stitches/etc, occurred at speed or going big. Slow speed crashes are slower, so less injury and more time to bail.

    This summer: 1) tried to jump a big boulder at high speed and plowed into the hill, stuck a branch into my arm (stitches), hammered my knee, and scratched my helmet; bike was fine 2) rode down a volcanic staircase, went over the bars, broke a rib, broke a finger, and hammered my knee; bike was fine . 3) clipped a tree at speed, flipped into a boulder, broke fibula, hammered my knee (again), chewed up my shin, broke my seat, broke my dropper lever.

    I can see the OPís point if weíre talking gaps and running short, perhaps there is a ďbest speedĒ when hammering through a chundery section, but will I risk more injury going slower, probably not.

    Iím not a park guy, more into natural features, so a couple weeks ago I was riding the Whole a Enchilada, last section is super chundery with tons of ledges, was running it full out, lots and lots of close calls but didnít go down once. Super risky, bad place to get hurt, probably dumb, but it sure was fun

    Edit: so I used to paddle steep creeks in the southeast, lots of swim you die kinda stuff, had quite a few close calls in strainers and seives. I was often the probe, didnít really get freaked easily, paddled hard and fast, survived. Then one day I started getting freaked, started pulling back, and my risk increased because I wasnít paddling aggressively, I was paddling guardedly. I had a couple incidents, hit my head, finally decided my steep creeping days were done.

    So maybe the OP is asking the wrong question. Maybe the question should be: Does riding safe and being guarded increase the risk of injury? To that question I would say yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    In theory, maybe. That said all of my bad accidents have occurred at speed, and going slower would have almost certainly prevented all of them.
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  23. #23
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    I'm not ignoring jack shit. "All else being equal". I know full well there are times when going faster is safer, but that wasn't my point. Consequences are always higher the faster you go, IF YOU CRASH.

    I don't highball anymore, I have too many friends with high consequence injuries from high speed crashes. Femurs, collarbones, major concussions, etc. I'd rather be the "*****" and go slower and scrape my shin up here and there. You can rally everything, knock yourself out.

    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    You're ignoring a variable here. If the crash wouldn't have happened because you were going faster then the slow spees crash is more likely to cause injuries.

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahJohn View Post
    I'm not ignoring jack shit. "All else being equal". I know full well there are times when going faster is safer, but that wasn't my point. Consequences are always higher the faster you go, IF YOU CRASH.

    I don't highball anymore, I have too many friends with high consequence injuries from high speed crashes. Femurs, collarbones, major concussions, etc. I'd rather be the "*****" and go slower and scrape my shin up here and there. You can rally everything, knock yourself out.
    Yep because going slow worked so well here.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpx6PuCH...d=9i3k19jfzytl

    If he actually gets off the brakes and maintains some momentum that crash never happens. He's extremely fortunate that went as well as it did.

    Two causes to that crash. Too much brake and going too slow which allowed the front wheel to drop into the hole and arrest his momentum. More speed and he either clears the hole or has the momentum to power through it.

    So, in summation, yes, yes you are ignoring an important variable. If going faster will cause you to not crash then no, the consequences are not higher. Literally, they cannot be. And even if we ignore all that my anecdotal evidence against yours shows otherwise. My worst ones have all been lowspeed. Many similar to the video. For me it's easier to seperate from the bike at higher speeds thus reducing likelihood of injury.
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  25. #25
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    You lost me at "man up".

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikesee View Post
    You lost me at "man up".
    Rough life being a word snob...

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Rough life being a word snob...

    Nice sidestep.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by davec113 View Post
    IMO it comes down to 1. Choosing your line 2. Visualizing what's going to happen as you ride that line before you actually do.

    This means you need to work your way up to doing more advanced things gradually. When you attempt to advance your skills it's scary because #2 is not assured. With a gradual approach you are more likely to be within a margin of error that will allow success. When you hit something and are too far off on your prediction it will lead to failure.

    My injuries have been a result of riding trails with jumps in them blind. Sometimes you don't want to stop for everything, hold your friends up, etc. but don't ride jumps blind, ever. Even in a bike park on a busy Sunday afternoon...

    If a move requires full commitment, like a jump or a steep roller, if you're riding blind you can't be assured you can find and visualize your line, yet you're fully committing, at a certain point there is no turning back.

    Fear of anything also makes you more likely to experience what you're afraid of. In all parts of life. Fun stuff!
    Too true.

  29. #29
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    Some people on this thread seem to think i'm suggesting faster is always safer. This is not true and not what i'm getting at. I'm saying certain trail features are safer going faster.

    There is also an impression that i'm suggesting fast isnt dangerous. I am not suggesting that either. There is a risk of significant injury or death every time you ride.

    The worst case sceneario is the same regardless of if you ride fast or slow. On some occasions you increase the chance of that risk by going to slow. This is where the risk adverse are putting themselves at a higher risk than the risk takers.

    Another interesting point is that increased skill decreases actual risk any given speed.
    What was once risky become easily achievable and repeatible with added skill and practice. So what will brake bones for the unskilled wont even raise a sweet for teh highly skilled.

    The actual risk is not speed related compared to others. It is speed related to your skill set limitations

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Yep because going slow worked so well here.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpx6PuCH...d=9i3k19jfzytl

    If he actually gets off the brakes and maintains some momentum that crash never happens. He's extremely fortunate that went as well as it did.

    Two causes to that crash. Too much brake and going too slow which allowed the front wheel to drop into the hole and arrest his momentum. More speed and he either clears the hole or has the momentum to power through it.
    The issue with this guy isn't so much his speed or his brakes but that he has a bunch of weight on his hands. If he were to hinge lower and stay centered with his weight planted on his feet, his front wheel likely would have rolled over that rock instead of getting bogged down, his fork compressing, and his bike being catapulted down the hill.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nurse Ben View Post
    So maybe the OP is asking the wrong question. Maybe the question should be: Does riding safe and being guarded increase the risk of injury? To that question I would say yes.
    Riding safely and being guarded doesn't have to mean riding timidly. Timid riding does not usually yield great results. Riding confidently within your limits can mean riding hard, riding well, and not getting injured.

    I can't really afford to get a major injury. This is why I try to dial in the fundamentals as much as possible. If you have a dialed body position in all circumstances, the chances of crashing and getting injured go down substantially. Ride fast, ride hard, but be smart about it.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    In theory, maybe. That said all of my bad accidents have occurred at speed, and going slower would have almost certainly prevented all of them.
    Same for the most part, though I did case the creek gap on Dirt Merchant really hard the first time I tried it. I didn't injure myself very much but going faster there would have helped.

    Quote Originally Posted by s0ckeyeus View Post
    So pedal wheelies off drops are always safer than just riding off the same drop with some speed?



    The key is knowing your limits and not getting in over your head.
    Ask my buddy whose chain snapped when he was doing a 5 foot wheelie drop to flat. Ow.

    Absolutely, and a big part of that is commitment. Some of my worst crashes were a result of not fully committing to a feature and knowing the appropriate speeds for gaps and stuff is a big part of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Not true for all trail features. You cant hit any gap slower than whatever critical speed is required to make the distance. Below that speed you are more dangerous than going faster.
    Until you're going fast enough to overshoot the transition, anyway. What's worse, casing at lower speed or landing flat at high speed? I'd say it's a toss up.

    Or when you come into a double teeter totter too fast and just survive the first one but get to the end of the second before it even starts moving and have to do an unexpected 5 foot drop. Not that I ever did that or anything...

    Or the same buddy from above riding a fire road to a beach at dusk and hitting the chain across the entrance to the beach at high speed.

    I totally get your point though. There are lots of situations where carrying speed decreases the risk of crashing which is definitely good, but it also has to be weighed against the fact that the risk of injury if you do crash tends to increase with speed. Except for gaps of course.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Some people on this thread seem to think i'm suggesting faster is always safer. This is not true and not what i'm getting at. I'm saying certain trail features are safer going faster.

    There is also an impression that i'm suggesting fast isnt dangerous. I am not suggesting that either. There is a risk of significant injury or death every time you ride.

    The worst case sceneario is the same regardless of if you ride fast or slow. On some occasions you increase the chance of that risk by going to slow. This is where the risk adverse are putting themselves at a higher risk than the risk takers.

    Another interesting point is that increased skill decreases actual risk any given speed.
    What was once risky become easily achievable and repeatible with added skill and practice. So what will brake bones for the unskilled wont even raise a sweet for teh highly skilled.

    The actual risk is not speed related compared to others. It is speed related to your skill set limitations
    Yup, many crashes the top pros take would likely kill an average guy... It's hard to believe some of the crashes at Rampage and big slopestyle comps are walked away from.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Mountain biking is interesting in the fact that in many situations going faster is safer.

    The monkey in your mind screams "No! dangerous, go slower"
    Don't hit that gap or stepdown or blaze through that root section as fast as you can.

    But when you man up and hit that line at speed the track becomes smoother, easier, and way less risk of crashing.

    If you let the monkey decide and go slower through those sections the track is rougher, harder to ride and you are more likely to injure yourself.

    So the percieved risk in your mind is wrong. The actual risk is higher going slower for the types of features than need speed and commitment.

    Also when looking at my risk adverse buddies who generally a controlled by the monkey mind and my risk taking buddies i see that the risk takers are not injured more than the risk adverse. Quite the opposite, the risk adverse have had the most sever injuries. This is further evidence that going faster, commiting more, controlling the monkey mind is better.

    Discuss.
    Faster isn't always better. This sport, hobby, whatever, is an activity that requires skill, confidence, and fitness. As you build your skills, confidence, and fitness, you can ride better. You can take lines slower, and better, if you have more skill and balance. A good example would be a rock garden/rock armoring. Hit one a full speed ahead and you may jam up in a crevasse and stop dead. Learn to balance, jockey the bike under you, and use your leg strength you can climb through it with skill, not speed.

  35. #35
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    I fight these demons and after years on motorcycles taking huge risks (and having approximately 20 broken bones and 4 ICU visits as a result) I have become very risk averse, and it holds me back everytime I ride.

    That said, I have introduced my wife and a guy friend to riding,. My wife knows that I will not lead her to do anything that I know she can't do and she trusts me completely and as a result, she charges right in to rough roll ins and through rock gardens and clears them with regularity. The guy friend doesn't trust me, slows way down, and rarely clears any obstacles at all, he pretty much walks everything.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Going faster is always more dangerous.

    If you cant safely clear something slowly, its a dangerous feature and hitting it faster is inherently dangerous.
    Uh, what? All gaps have a certain amount of speed necessary to clear them. For many it's fast. You're basically saying any feature that can't be rolled is a dangerous feature and shouldn't be ridden? What are you doing in the AM forum?

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDwayyo View Post
    Uh, what? All gaps have a certain amount of speed necessary to clear them. For many it's fast. You're basically saying any feature that can't be rolled is a dangerous feature and shouldn't be ridden? What are you doing in the AM forum?
    I didnt say anyone should or shouldnt hit anything. Lets look back to the OP's statement though.

    Also when looking at my risk adverse buddies who generally a controlled by the monkey mind and my risk taking buddies i see that the risk takers are not injured more than the risk adverse. Quite the opposite, the risk adverse have had the most sever injuries. This is further evidence that going faster, commiting more, controlling the monkey mind is better.
    I dont agree with that. Going faster is always more dangerous. Not saying to try to hit features too slowly. Im not saying avoid anything. I'm saying there is always a risk and going faster increases our risk of high speed crashes, which is sort of a given. Dont kid yourself that going big and hard charging is for your safety. Thats nuts!

    If you're truly risk adverse, go easy. Going fast is why a lot of us ride and we assume the risk involved. If someone truly cant accept/afford/deal with the risk, riding faster isnt the solution.

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    so in other words some features are easier going faster, and others going slower, right? You don't want to go too fast, or too slow?

    LOL

  39. #39
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    Interesting thread... lot of opinions and experiences... my take is, no one single rule (faster better, slower better, etc.) applies. Every trail, every feature, even the weather, changes the situation.

    When I first started riding... way back when the only bikes available were fully rigid, slow was the only option. Obviously that's all changed. But even when things changed with the intro of front and full suspension, most of us were stuck in the taking it slow mentality. For me, it wasn't until I unintentionally approached a serious downhill rock garden at significant speed, that I realized, "Whoa, that wasn't so bad!", and began to use speed to my advantage. I've long lost count of things like how many times my front wheel got stuck in a feature at slow speed sending me over the bars, whereas additional speed would have prevented that. As a result, I tend to lean more toward the use of speed.

    Many will say that speed and experience go hand in hand. And it does. But I believe that confidence is more important. My worst wrecks are usually because I hesitated or made a wrong choice because I questioned my ability, which in most cases meant I slowed down. In other words, lost my confidence. With confidence high, my experience will take over, even if things go bad. Without confidence, my experience is far less effective.

    Sooo... today I plan to ride a 10+ mile trail made up almost entirely of hilly rock gardens. So we'll see just how right or wrong I am.
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Going faster is always more dangerous.
    I'd say just give up on that statement.

    I don't think anyone disagrees that going bigger and faster is generally more dangerous. OP is just saying that sometimes your brain perceives danger and you slow down more than you should, and that increases danger more often than we might think. Worth considering IMO.

    If you are out there kickin ass and takin names, you probably don't need to worry much about this, and slower would likely be safer.

    Even in Texas there are features where going too slow will screw you (as in put you on the ground), and is therefore more dangerous than going a fast enough to clear something. Me and my friends figured that out the first year we hit the trails.

  41. #41
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    While there does seem to be a "magic" speed for many trail features, I think I've had the biggest mis-haps when I go into something that I think I know and discover that it has changed. Erosion, tree falls, trail maintenance... Wow I've had some spectacular get-offs.

    We have all ridden a section where the entrance is critical. If you're late into the turn, or you miss a rock gap by 4", the next turn or obstacle will nearly kill you. And you know it going in. Sometimes it doesn't work out. Sometimes your front tire gets a slow leak in the middle of a downhill, and just when you lean hard on it is when it rolls off the rim.

    ^^^So I've got all that swirling around in my head...

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    It's never easier - you just go faster.

  42. #42
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    I also think back to a recent wet enduro I did. Went off the bike twice, once about 3 mph OTB climbing on a transfer, the other a 20+ mph yardsale through a rock garden, dropper cable got pinched, activated dropper, hit my butt and shot me out the front door. At speed I was able to seperate from the bike and run it out, got cut by the chain ring but no major issues. I felt the slow crash for days.

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  43. #43
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    just like everyone knows of that guy who lived because he wasn't wearing his seat belt in the massive car accident......

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahJohn View Post
    all else being equal, you are more likely to get a worse injury if you crash when going faster. I know for a fact (the hard way) a 25mph crash is usually a lot worse than a 5mph one. I have 2 25mph crashes, dozens of 5mph ones.

    The 5mph one you often laugh about afterward.
    the faster you go, the harder you fall.

    the harder you fall, the more it hurts.

    the more it hurts, the bigger the hospital bill is.

    that said, my recent injury that kept me down four months was the result of low-speed user error on a section of trail i've ridden literally about a thousand times.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahJohn View Post
    just like everyone knows of that guy who lived because he wasn't wearing his seat belt in the massive car accident......
    It's not exactly the same thing. It takes momentum to separate one's self from the bike. At higher speeds there is more momentum. Yes, this can cause a greater impact. However, it can also help provide an impetus to separate one's self from the bike. Being separated from the bike allows for the opportunity to better control how one falls versus being caught up in the bike.

    As with anything with an almost infinite number of variables and force vector diagrams there is no cut and dry answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    As with anything with an almost infinite number of variables and force vector diagrams there is no cut and dry answer.
    You didn't quit riding because you're old, you're old because you quit riding.

  47. #47
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    It's all about the flat pedals folks. Flat pedals.

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    I think a lot of you guys are missing the point of this thread.
    It's not about speed and exactly how fast to go.

    Its about understanding that your instinctual fight or flight response can be wrong. Its about controlling the fear the builds up internally screaming at you to slow down when often times slower is more risky.

    Its about working past those fears to get to an point where ride safer and faster and overall enjoy the sport more.

  49. #49
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    Its all mental
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Yep because going slow worked so well here.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bpx6PuCH...d=9i3k19jfzytl


    Two causes to that crash. Too much brake and going too slow which allowed the front wheel to drop into the hole and arrest his momentum. More speed and he either clears the hole or has the momentum to power through it.
    There is a third one as well - he had way too much weight on the front wheel. Had he loaded 80% of his weight on the back wheel - he'd be able to clear it going slow as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by borisotto View Post
    There is a third one as well - he had way too much weight on the front wheel. Had he loaded 80% of his weight on the back wheel - he'd be able to clear it going slow as well.
    Yes, however with a little bit more forward momentum the margin for error on weight distribution increases in this instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Some people on this thread seem to think i'm suggesting faster is always safer. This is not true and not what i'm getting at. I'm saying certain trail features are safer going faster.
    Yes and no, it could be safer if you have appropriate skills and could be just a roulette if you don't have skills.

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by borisotto View Post
    There is a third one as well - he had way too much weight on the front wheel. Had he loaded 80% of his weight on the back wheel - he'd be able to clear it going slow as well.
    There's a section locally that is similar to this, technical man made rock steps that are spaced weird and want to suck your front wheel in and send you OTB. Without a little momentum and pushing the front through the steps... you're going down. Loading the back wheel (sitting on the back tire) and expecting the bike to keep rolling doesn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    Yes, however with a little bit more forward momentum the margin for error on weight distribution increases in this instance.
    Agree. But it doesn't solve the guy's problem with incorrect weight distribution for the feature that crashed him. ;-)

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by borisotto View Post
    Agree. But it doesn't solve the guy's problem with incorrect weight distribution for the feature that crashed him. ;-)
    No but it is an instance of where slower speeds increased his likelihood of an injury.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    There's a section locally that is similar to this, technical man made rock steps that are spaced weird and want to suck your front wheel in and send you OTB. Without a little momentum and pushing the front through the steps... you're going down. Loading the back wheel (sitting on the back tire) and expecting the bike to keep rolling doesn't work.
    Can't really comment without seeing you local section, but yes, sometimes spacing of the feature could be very weird - both wheels may get stuck at the same time etc. In some cases going faster is the solution, in other cases its not.

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckerjt07 View Post
    No but it is an instance of where slower speeds increased his likelihood of an injury.
    Crashing on lower speed is clearly preferable to crashing on higher speed, so its kinda two-sided - 'higher chances of crashing, lower chances of breaking the neck' vs 'lower chances of crashing with higher chances of breaking the neck'. Pick your line.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    I think a lot of you guys are missing the point of this thread.
    It's not about speed and exactly how fast to go.

    Its about understanding that your instinctual fight or flight response can be wrong. Its about controlling the fear the builds up internally screaming at you to slow down when often times slower is more risky.

    Its about working past those fears to get to an point where ride safer and faster and overall enjoy the sport more.
    I know what you mean. I had a spinal cord injury and was temporarily paralyzed. All of my muscle memory was erased and I basically had to learn to ride a bike all over again. I also lost my "balls" so to speak. I would come to a feature and would see the three ways to fail, instead of the way to make it. I would slow way too much or completely just stop. It took me a long time to get over it, but definitely ate a lot of dirt before I did.
    I'm sick of all the Irish stereotypes, as soon as I finish this beer I"m punching someone

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    I concluded that this thread is a trap ...

  60. #60
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    Good thread! I think it's fascinating how my natural instincts can be so wrong and dangerous in mountain biking. When I start to get beyond my comfort level by going too fast, or hitting lines that are too technical, I subconsciously stand taller, point my toes down, and shift my weight back. All because my primitive brain is trying to get my head as far away from danger (the ground) as possible.

    Of course, these actions are the exact opposite of what I should be doing, and I gain stability and comfort by fighting those instincts and getting lower, dropping my heels, and getting my weight more forward into a neutral and more aggressive riding position.

    Does anyone have any good techniques for fighting the incorrect natural instincts? On steep techy stuff, I've found some success by focusing on using my arms to try to "push" the front tire into the holes. This forces me get my chest lower and closer to the stem with bent elbows when the front wheel begins to drop, and then extending my elbows as the front wheel drops. Of course, this only works on rollable features.

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid Duffman View Post
    Does anyone have any good techniques for fighting the incorrect natural instincts? On steep techy stuff, I've found some success by focusing on using my arms to try to "push" the front tire into the holes. This forces me get my chest lower and closer to the stem with bent elbows when the front wheel begins to drop, and then extending my elbows as the front wheel drops. Of course, this only works on rollable features.

    Mentally, Repitition will kill the inner monkey. Ride that steep as much as you can. Single it out and ride ride down it. again and again. Then you will overcome that fear of steep.


    Go and ride something even steeper! then you will go back to normal steep and find it easier.


    Also a slacker bike really helps. Rigging up and ridding incredible steep on a dh bike will reset your impression of what steep is. Then you go back to the trail bike and find the steep that was once hard easy.

  62. #62
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    Practice, practice and again - practice.
    Just like with skiing steep stuff off-piste - riding the steep and technical terrain gets you used to that and after some time your perception of what is 'technical' and 'steep' shifts, 'old steep' turns into 'normal', and something you'd not even considered as possible for you to ride became 'steep' & 'technical'.

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