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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I still have plenty of fun on tight smooth XC trails on the same bike I ride "pro lines". I must be doing it wrong.
    I never said you wouldn’t have fun, or that everyone should get 5 different bikes (I only have 1 mtb myself, and have fun everywhere)

    The question is, if your bike is very long travel, aggressive descending geometry, would a shorter travel, lighter, more nimble bike be even more fun on those contouring trails?
    Curious what your though or experience is in that regard.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tjaard View Post
    I never said you wouldn’t have fun, or that everyone should get 5 different bikes (I only have 1 mtb myself, and have fun everywhere)

    The question is, if your bike is very long travel, aggressive descending geometry, would a shorter travel, lighter, more nimble bike be even more fun on those contouring trails?
    Curious what your though or experience is in that regard.
    I wonder how much of what some people feel is trail numbing and lack of playfulness is simply running the shocks in full open. Granted the enduro bikes are generally longer wheelbase and slacker, but putting them in full firm setting and popping off small roots and rocks is still fun. My bike at least does not feel like a big rig at low speeds. Is it as easy to throw around or fast steering as my 5010? Of course not, but it's definitely not DH bike territory.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_slacker View Post
    I wonder how much of what some people feel is trail numbing and lack of playfulness is simply running the shocks in full open. Granted the enduro bikes are generally longer wheelbase and slacker, but putting them in full firm setting and popping off small roots and rocks is still fun. My bike at least does not feel like a big rig at low speeds. Is it as easy to throw around or fast steering as my 5010? Of course not, but it's definitely not DH bike territory.
    I can only speak for myself, but in my experience, if I have to crank up the compression damping to firm up the ride, then my spring rate is too low (or I have too much travel, which is accompanied by a lower spring rate). I would far prefer a shorter travel bike with low compression damping over a long travel one with the damping cranked up to try to act like a short travel bike.

    That's me, anyway. I have always preferred higher spring rates (which generally means less travel) to more compression damping compared to most folks, apparently.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  4. #204
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    My 2019 Transition Patrol (at 32# and 160mm rear travel) pedals much better and handles terrain much better than my old 2011 Trek Rumblefish (also 32# but 110mm travel).
    We don't ride to add days to our life, we ride to add life to the days we have left here.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by callmesb View Post
    I pushed my 26lb carbon hardtail up the road grade at the top of Tiger just this past Sunday, and then rode it down OTG > NOTG > Fully Rigid > Joyride etc. By the end of the downhill, I definitely wished I had more bike, even though it was light and speedy on the way up.
    That's not a ride that I could ever enjoy on a HT. Why the road when Master Link is so much more enjoyable?

    I converted my 160/135 trail bike into a 170/165 enduro bike just to see how that works. I can't wait to take it to Tiger after I get over this rotten cold.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    That's not a ride that I could ever enjoy on a HT. Why the road when Master Link is so much more enjoyable?

    I converted my 160/135 trail bike into a 170/165 enduro bike just to see how that works. I can't wait to take it to Tiger after I get over this rotten cold.
    I pedaled Master Link and Quick Link, and most of the road, with a little hike-a-bike on the steep section at the very top. I think I would have enjoyed the ride just fine if I had opted for OTG versus NOTG. NOTG is pretty blasted and was a lot more work than pleasure. I'm not even sure I'll enjoy it on my forthcoming Bronson...

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_slacker View Post
    I wonder how much of what some people feel is trail numbing and lack of playfulness is simply running the shocks in full open. Granted the enduro bikes are generally longer wheelbase and slacker, but putting them in full firm setting and popping off small roots and rocks is still fun. My bike at least does not feel like a big rig at low speeds. Is it as easy to throw around or fast steering as my 5010? Of course not, but it's definitely not DH bike territory.
    Take your HD4 down to Bend and see how much you like it. I think a longer-travel bike there would be a bit boring.

    Where we live, your bike is really suited to the local terrain which is steeper and rougher than a lot of other places.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by callmesb View Post
    I pedaled Master Link and Quick Link, and most of the road, with a little hike-a-bike on the steep section at the very top. I think I would have enjoyed the ride just fine if I had opted for OTG versus NOTG. NOTG is pretty blasted and was a lot more work than pleasure. I'm not even sure I'll enjoy it on my forthcoming Bronson...
    I see. From your earlier description, I thought you rode the road all the way up. Yeah, that last road pitch is a *&&^%$.

    Oh no, NOTG is really fun on a good bike. I think you'd dig it on a Bronson.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I see. From your earlier description, I thought you rode the road all the way up. Yeah, that last road pitch is a *&&^%$.

    Oh no, NOTG is really fun on a good bike. I think you'd dig it on a Bronson.
    I ride everything at Tokul on a hardtail and can almost keep up with the guys on their Patrols. I don't feel underbiked, per se, but I bet I could ride Tokyo Drift and OGDH much faster on the Bronson. I guess we'll see...

    I'll give NOTG another shot, but it was in pretty bad shape. It was just an endless series of brake ruts and wet roots, with little or no variety. I can only imagine what it will be like after the rain starts.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Take your HD4 down to Bend and see how much you like it. I think a longer-travel bike there would be a bit boring.

    Where we live, your bike is really suited to the local terrain which is steeper and rougher than a lot of other places.
    Theres a lot of worry about longer travel bikes making the easier tracks boring.

    Do they? Yes, very slightly in some undulating not too steep terrain.

    But here is an alternative view.

    There is nothing a 130mm trail bike can ride that a 160-180mm bike cant ride. NOTHING!
    As the trail gets steeper an knarlier they comes a piont where the 130mm bike is no longer fun or starts getting dangerous. Thats right in the fun zone of the 160-180mm bike.
    The 160-180 bike can ride up to and including some dh tracks. Whats more the gnar that once scared you and you shied away from riding or didnt event consider it ridable is now easily ridable. You have expanded the range of riding that you can do on a bike. After you get used to the angles and steering speed riding the easier tracks are fun also.

    When riding a big hitting bike you have the widest trail option available to you over any other bike on the planet!.. No other bike can match it.


    Do i want to loose that trail range for a little bit more fun in the mid to easy range,

    Hell no!

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I can only speak for myself, but in my experience, if I have to crank up the compression damping to firm up the ride, then my spring rate is too low (or I have too much travel, which is accompanied by a lower spring rate). I would far prefer a shorter travel bike with low compression damping over a long travel one with the damping cranked up to try to act like a short travel bike.

    That's me, anyway. I have always preferred higher spring rates (which generally means less travel) to more compression damping compared to most folks, apparently.
    Just to be clear, I'm talking about adjusting damping via the open/medium/firm adjuster lever, *NOT* adjusting the full open mode further with a dial or allen key for different terrain. I usually climb easy trails in firm mode front and rear for less pedal bob and being able to stand to give my legs a break from sit 'n spin. When I get to the top it goes in open mode.

    If I was going to be doing an XC ride where it was tame terrain with ups and downs I think I'd put it in trail mode (middle position) the entire ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Take your HD4 down to Bend and see how much you like it. I think a longer-travel bike there would be a bit boring.

    Where we live, your bike is really suited to the local terrain which is steeper and rougher than a lot of other places.
    Obviously where you ride is gonna be a determining factor. Again I'm not saying someone should buy an enduro bike if their local trails are all long XC climbs with flow trails on the way down. But you could.

    Quote Originally Posted by callmesb View Post
    I ride everything at Tokul on a hardtail and can almost keep up with the guys on their Patrols. I don't feel underbiked, per se, but I bet I could ride Tokyo Drift and OGDH much faster on the Bronson. I guess we'll see...

    I'll give NOTG another shot, but it was in pretty bad shape. It was just an endless series of brake ruts and wet roots, with little or no variety. I can only imagine what it will be like after the rain starts.
    A lot of my Tokul riding has been on my hardtail. Just having a dropper does a lot, most of the steeps there don't really require suspension, you just gotta pick a line and not be too on the front brake if it's a chute with a root or something waiting to send you OTB. Props on doing Tokyo drift on the hardtail. My first time ever riding it I did it on the HT and I was super timid, didn't know what to expect and was worried about breaking the bike. Luckily I caught the lameness on gopro. Can't wait to get out and hit it on HD4.


  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_slacker View Post
    Just to be clear, I'm talking about adjusting damping via the open/medium/firm adjuster lever, *NOT* adjusting the full open mode further with a dial or allen key for different terrain. I usually climb easy trails in firm mode front and rear for less pedal bob and being able to stand to give my legs a break from sit 'n spin. When I get to the top it goes in open mode.

    If I was going to be doing an XC ride where it was tame terrain with ups and downs I think I'd put it in trail mode (middle position) the entire ride.



    Obviously where you ride is gonna be a determining factor. Again I'm not saying someone should buy an enduro bike if their local trails are all long XC climbs with flow trails on the way down. But you could.



    A lot of my Tokul riding has been on my hardtail. Just having a dropper does a lot, most of the steeps there don't really require suspension, you just gotta pick a line and not be too on the front brake if it's a chute with a root or something waiting to send you OTB. Props on doing Tokyo drift on the hardtail. My first time ever riding it I did it on the HT and I was super timid, didn't know what to expect and was worried about breaking the bike. Luckily I caught the lameness on gopro. Can't wait to get out and hit it on HD4.

    LOL! I wiped out at the exact same spot that you did the first time I rode it. I took that same right side line and slid out.

    Next run I took the steeper left side and all went well.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Theres a lot of worry about longer travel bikes making the easier tracks boring.

    Do they? Yes, very slightly in some undulating not too steep terrain.

    But here is an alternative view.

    There is nothing a 130mm trail bike can ride that a 160-180mm bike cant ride. NOTHING!
    As the trail gets steeper an knarlier they comes a piont where the 130mm bike is no longer fun or starts getting dangerous. Thats right in the fun zone of the 160-180mm bike.
    The 160-180 bike can ride up to and including some dh tracks. Whats more the gnar that once scared you and you shied away from riding or didnt event consider it ridable is now easily ridable. You have expanded the range of riding that you can do on a bike. After you get used to the angles and steering speed riding the easier tracks are fun also.

    When riding a big hitting bike you have the widest trail option available to you over any other bike on the planet!.. No other bike can match it.


    Do i want to loose that trail range for a little bit more fun in the mid to easy range,

    Hell no!
    FWIW, I have a long-travel bike and ride the sort of terrain that you describe.

    My point is that not everyone rides double-black diamond trails and if you live in an area with mellower terrain, then a shorter-travel bike may be a more fun experience.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    FWIW, I have a long-travel bike and ride the sort of terrain that you describe.

    My point is that not everyone rides double-black diamond trails and if you live in an area with mellower terrain, then a shorter-travel bike may be a more fun experience.

    To your point, when I bought my EPO, I lived in Pennsylvania. For the trails there, a hardtail with 140mm up front was considered "overbiked," although it allowed me to go faster and have a lot of fun.

    Once I moved to Washington, my EPO suddenly felt like too little bike. That said, I've ridden it exclusively since I moved two years ago, and I'm finding it to be less and less limiting as my skills improve. I've ridden it everywhere from Duthie to Tokul to Raging to Tiger to Galbraith.

    I definitely think there's a proper tool for every job, but I think the lines have become much more blurry in the last five years.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Theres a lot of worry about longer travel bikes making the easier tracks boring.

    Do they? Yes, very slightly in some undulating not too steep terrain...
    There is nothing a 130mm trail bike can ride that a 160-180mm bike can’t ride. NOTHING!
    As the trail gets steeper an knarlier they comes a piont where the 130mm bike is no longer fun or starts getting dangerous. Thats right in the fun zone of the 160-180mm bike. ....
    Do I want to loose that trail range for a little bit more fun in the mid to easy range?

    Hell no!
    That is absolutely true. But you are missing the point (of your own opening statement ;-)

    The point is not whether a long travel bike can be a good choice (I agree with you that it often is, my own bike is a fairly “big” bike even though a lot of local trails are smooth and mellow).

    The question is whether, on a certain trail, you can be over biked, meaning, would you have more fun on that same trail with a “smaller” bike?

    I believe the answer to that question is still yes: you can. A lighter, nimbler steering, poppier bike is more fun on trails were gravity doesn't give you much speed and where the surface is fairly smooth.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    LOL! I wiped out at the exact same spot that you did the first time I rode it. I took that same right side line and slid out.

    Next run I took the steeper left side and all went well.
    Super loose over there, straight is better fo sho.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Theres a lot of worry about longer travel bikes making the easier tracks boring.

    Do they? Yes, very slightly in some undulating not too steep terrain.

    But here is an alternative view.

    There is nothing a 130mm trail bike can ride that a 160-180mm bike cant ride. NOTHING!
    As the trail gets steeper an knarlier they comes a piont where the 130mm bike is no longer fun or starts getting dangerous. Thats right in the fun zone of the 160-180mm bike.
    The 160-180 bike can ride up to and including some dh tracks. Whats more the gnar that once scared you and you shied away from riding or didnt event consider it ridable is now easily ridable. You have expanded the range of riding that you can do on a bike. After you get used to the angles and steering speed riding the easier tracks are fun also.

    When riding a big hitting bike you have the widest trail option available to you over any other bike on the planet!.. No other bike can match it.


    Do i want to loose that trail range for a little bit more fun in the mid to easy range,

    Hell no!
    I think your point has sort of evolved to "yes, you can be over-biked, but it is worth it to me for the versatility of the big bike". That is a perfectly valid point.

    However, I wouldn't really lose any "trail range" on a 130mm trail bike. The only trails I have ever felt that a 5" bike was either unsafe or un-fun I got to on a ski lift accompanied by people in DH armor.

    Other than that, I really can't think of any time in the past 20 years that I've come across a trail that I would not have "fun" doing on a 5" trail bike. That includes over a decade riding all over the east coast, living in Tahoe for a few years, several trips to Moab, Fruita, JH, and all over CO. Are there trails that are more fun and faster on an Enduro bike? Absolutely. I've ridden a ton of them and still do. But it is extremely rare that I come across a section of trail that I would try on an 160mm enduro bike that I would not do on a 130mm trail bike. Since 2003 I have been riding various FS bikes with between 125-40mm travel as my main ride (with some sort of HT or rigid to keep things interesting). Before that was a 4" SC Superlight, which I did sometimes see the limits of.

    Also, I would disagree that riding less tech, rolling/flat, twisty or flowy terrain on a 180mm bike is "very slightly" boring. It is VERY boring, IMO. Heck, even my 140mm bike is not nearly as much fun or as engaging as my 80mm hardtail on some trails.

    I guess it just comes down to what bothers you more: Riding a long-travel slacked-out bike on less gnarly rolling twisty trails, or riding steep gnar on a 130mm trail bike. For you it is clearly the latter. For me, it is probably a little more the former. And it also depends on where you live, and therefore how often either of these scenarios would apply. Between where I have lived and traveled, my riding has always been a wide mix, and I want a bike that is fun as it can be in all those scenarios. When I finally stop putting money into my 26" 5-Spot, my next bike will likely be a 5010. Two of my friends ride them, and they seem to me like the ultimate do-all bike.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I think your point has sort of evolved to "yes, you can be over-biked, but it is worth it to me for the versatility of the big bike". That is a perfectly valid point.

    However, I wouldn't really lose any "trail range" on a 130mm trail bike. The only trails I have ever felt that a 5" bike was either unsafe or un-fun I got to on a ski lift accompanied by people in DH armor.

    Other than that, I really can't think of any time in the past 20 years that I've come across a trail that I would not have "fun" doing on a 5" trail bike. That includes over a decade riding all over the east coast, living in Tahoe for a few years, several trips to Moab, Fruita, JH, and all over CO. Are there trails that are more fun and faster on an Enduro bike? Absolutely. I've ridden a ton of them and still do. But it is extremely rare that I come across a section of trail that I would try on an 160mm enduro bike that I would not do on a 130mm trail bike. Since 2003 I have been riding various FS bikes with between 125-40mm travel as my main ride (with some sort of HT or rigid to keep things interesting). Before that was a 4" SC Superlight, which I did sometimes see the limits of.

    Also, I would disagree that riding less tech, rolling/flat, twisty or flowy terrain on a 180mm bike is "very slightly" boring. It is VERY boring, IMO. Heck, even my 140mm bike is not nearly as much fun or as engaging as my 80mm hardtail on some trails.

    I guess it just comes down to what bothers you more: Riding a long-travel slacked-out bike on less gnarly rolling twisty trails, or riding steep gnar on a 130mm trail bike. For you it is clearly the latter. For me, it is probably a little more the former. And it also depends on where you live, and therefore how often either of these scenarios would apply. Between where I have lived and traveled, my riding has always been a wide mix, and I want a bike that is fun as it can be in all those scenarios. When I finally stop putting money into my 26" 5-Spot, my next bike will likely be a 5010. Two of my friends ride them, and they seem to me like the ultimate do-all bike.
    Not Quite. Im stating being over biked is in the eye of the beholder. By my standards I am not overbiked Bacause my bike is fit for my purpose of riding. For you id would be definately overkill for your style of enjoyment and thats ok. Each to their own.

    I have buddies that will be going through their mtb lives perfectly happy with 130mm travel bikes. They dont miss the super gnar because they dont even consider it mountain biking.

    I am the step tech chaser. I love picking my way down a stupid steep or smashing that gnarly cluster of roots. My favourite tracks are firmly in your armoured up park dh session
    range. My most favourite track would probably get a double black rating. (its an gnarly old tramping track, Super steep, super rooty). The easy tracks i ride are a means to get to the next gnar. I have no use for a 130mm bike for 95% of my rides. Even my most peddly rides have a few park dh lines injected in for good measure.


    If a turner 5 spot is your jam a 5010 will be the business for you. I bought one for the wife and rode it a few times. It is indeed a stormer of the midrange. It jumped real well too. But when you get to the upper level its a bit undergunned for my style.

  19. #219
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    Why do these discussions always come down to people unzipping their pants and pulling out a tape measure?
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Why do these discussions always come down to people unzipping their pants and pulling out a tape measure?
    Tape measure? I require GPS mapping equipment.

    I can't speak for everyone but when this topic comes up, I think people are just stating what they truly like, especially in the case that they have been called or judged "overbiked" at one time or another. Bike shop employees are notorious for this if they don't know you.

    When I bought my SX Trail (180mm at both wheels) back in 2013 the shop guys actually tried to talk me out of buying it, saying things like "you won't be able to pedal it uphill" etc. They didn't know me, and they were a shop that dealt primarily with roadies and XC racers. In my day, I have ridden lines that they couldn't...imagine. I have averaged 150,000 feet of climbing on that bike per year since I bought it. And when I say I like gnarly terrain, I mean it. I regularly use 170mm out of my available 180, and not from drops or jumps -- from the surface conditions of the trails I choose to ride.

    I choose that kind of riding because that's what puts the biggest smile on my face -- nothing more, nothing less.

    That said, my bike is a pig compared to a lot of the newer enduro rigs. I could now have the same performance from a bike 4-5 pounds lighter -- which seems to me to be light enough to ride/climb/bomb descents all day without draining all my energy.

    I was looking at a new RM Slayer last year at a shop and it was the same thing from the shop employees: "Dude, unless you're riding park all the time that's too much bike."

    Hilarious. Come ride with me sometime.

    In essence, us mountain bikers are a supremely judgemental bunch that make totally baseless snap assessments of each other like it's cool. I'm guilty as well.

    I ride XC too, but for entirely different aspects, goals, and reasons. When I see people riding big travel aggro rigs, plus bikes and fat bikes on the same trails, I have condescending thoughts too. But then I remind myself, that may be their only bike and they just want to ride something mellow for a change. That, or it just doesn't matter and we should all just STFU and enjoy our rides. $.02

  21. #221
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    That was a perfect comment, we need to stop judging people, ride what you want.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBMILES View Post
    That was a perfect comment, we need to stop judging people, ride what you want.
    You realize you're on the internet right?

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Why do these discussions always come down to people unzipping their pants and pulling out a tape measure?
    Hey, I ride fast to the top and down. It affords me more time to measure my turgid manhood. I have a lot of time because I'm fast... so fast that I'm in the top .372% up and top .792% down!

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Not Quite. Im stating being over biked is in the eye of the beholder. By my standards I am not overbiked Bacause my bike is fit for my purpose of riding. For you id would be definately overkill for your style of enjoyment and thats ok. Each to their own.

    I have buddies that will be going through their mtb lives perfectly happy with 130mm travel bikes. They dont miss the super gnar because they dont even consider it mountain biking.

    I am the step tech chaser. I love picking my way down a stupid steep or smashing that gnarly cluster of roots. My favourite tracks are firmly in your armoured up park dh session
    range. My most favourite track would probably get a double black rating. (its an gnarly old tramping track, Super steep, super rooty). The easy tracks i ride are a means to get to the next gnar. I have no use for a 130mm bike for 95% of my rides. Even my most peddly rides have a few park dh lines injected in for good measure.


    If a turner 5 spot is your jam a 5010 will be the business for you. I bought one for the wife and rode it a few times. It is indeed a stormer of the midrange. It jumped real well too. But when you get to the upper level its a bit undergunned for my style.
    Not trying to poke the bear, but sounds like you are crushing some major vertical on your big bike? And, if so, how are you getting to the top?

    I too dig old school downhill gnar, but using the ideal bike on at type of terrain led me to enjoy the climbs less. A big bike does not climb steep tech nearly as well. Fire raid climbs yes, but again, that too is far less fun. If all you got is road climbs and gnar descents, then a big bike is the ticket.

    Blasting the chunky steep downs is fun and that's why to get my fix on that I lift assist DH. But for having fun on both sides of the mountain, up and down, a modest travel bike gives more smiles per mile. Too much bike, limits that.

    All that said I've found a sweet spot at about 150/130. The f/r "mismatch" works very well.

  25. #225
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    The newer enduro bikes climb just fine, not just on fire roads.

    Nothing crazy tech on the uphill on these trails but they’re not fireroads either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Not trying to poke the bear, but sounds like you are crushing some major vertical on your big bike? And, if so, how are you getting to the top?

    I too dig old school downhill gnar, but using the ideal bike on at type of terrain led me to enjoy the climbs less. A big bike does not climb steep tech nearly as well. Fire raid climbs yes, but again, that too is far less fun. If all you got is road climbs and gnar descents, then a big bike is the ticket.

    Blasting the chunky steep downs is fun and that's why to get my fix on that I lift assist DH. But for having fun on both sides of the mountain, up and down, a modest travel bike gives more smiles per mile. Too much bike, limits that.

    All that said I've found a sweet spot at about 150/130. The f/r "mismatch" works very well.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Overbiked almost a thing of the past?-4dc1c1f5-e499-419b-8d08-c0782366fbb4.jpeg  


  26. #226
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    "Climbs just fine"

    34 miles in 6 hours. 2309 calories. A lot of sitting around or really slow pace. For reference, XC riders do that in about half the time.

    "Fine" is perhaps defined as "tolerable" in this case. Like I said before, how big of a bike is overbiked is a matter of what people find they can live with. I do these kind of rides on big bikes too.




    The ego measuring is due to mtb being seen as a sport by some, rather than something more utilitarian or as a tool (e.g. for transportation or for exploration/adventure/discovery). Sport is like a way for people to exercise their conquest-like desires. Not going to assume just how many see it as a sport, but I personally don't see bikes as being merely toys/sporting equipment.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    By my standards I am not overbiked Bacause my bike is fit for my purpose of riding.

    I am the step tech chaser. I love picking my way down a stupid steep or smashing that gnarly cluster of roots. My favourite tracks are firmly in your armoured up park dh session
    range.
    Overbiked is when you're on more bike than you need to the point it's a disadvantage. There are definitely places where any trail bike is underbiked. Pedaling up and descending truly gnarly stuff on a long travel bike is just 'regularbiked' even if it doesn't pedal great.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    Overbiked is when you're on more bike than you need to the point it's a disadvantage. There are definitely places where any trail bike is underbiked. Pedaling up and descending truly gnarly stuff on a long travel bike is just 'regularbiked' even if it doesn't pedal great.
    I’m regularbiked af

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    Not Quite. Im stating being over biked is in the eye of the beholder. By my standards I am not overbiked Bacause my bike is fit for my purpose of riding. For you id would be definately overkill for your style of enjoyment and thats ok. Each to their own.

    I have buddies that will be going through their mtb lives perfectly happy with 130mm travel bikes. They dont miss the super gnar because they dont even consider it mountain biking.

    I am the step tech chaser. I love picking my way down a stupid steep or smashing that gnarly cluster of roots. My favourite tracks are firmly in your armoured up park dh session
    range. My most favourite track would probably get a double black rating. (its an gnarly old tramping track, Super steep, super rooty). The easy tracks i ride are a means to get to the next gnar. I have no use for a 130mm bike for 95% of my rides. Even my most peddly rides have a few park dh lines injected in for good measure.


    If a turner 5 spot is your jam a 5010 will be the business for you. I bought one for the wife and rode it a few times. It is indeed a stormer of the midrange. It jumped real well too. But when you get to the upper level its a bit undergunned for my style.
    I guess I am not getting what the point of this thread is.

    You are asking if being over-biked is a thing of the past.

    Your own opinion on this seems to be yes.

    To make your point, you describe your riding as basically the gnarliest of old school downhill lift serve, and that a 165/180mm is not being over-biked.

    But in that case, being “overbiked” is not a thing of the past, it was never the case to begin with. Nobody has EVER considered 165/180mm too much bike for that.

    So you are making the point that long travel bikes are better at super gnarly terrain. OK, sure. Everybody already knows this. So what is new, here?
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  30. #230
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    It is ironic that the longer and gnarlier the descent (more vert) the longer the climb. So, you could argue that perhaps a bigger bike is not ideal. Its like a paradox of mountain biking.

    It is to be expected that no one bike will be perfectly suited to all conditions and terrain encountered on relatively rugged, all-mountain ride (pardon the expression). Its when you spend 95% of your ride hauling around too much bike for the 5% where it's in the zone.

    Would it be over biked if you hit some legit black diamond terrain, lasting say 3 minutes, over a 20 minute descent, when you factor in you had haul a big bike up a 2 hour climb?

    At first thought I'd definitely say that was an over biked case. But, when I think of my rig, I don't know. I love tech climbing but also love the DH. Not a huge fan of rolling terrain unless its very techy. Never weighed my rig but I'd say its about 32#. Aluminum frame, coil on both ends, and 150/130mm. It climbs tech like a beast and descends way better than a bike of those proportions should. But I will say, that any more bike, or more travel would likely be a big hinderance on the climbs.

    So, after thinking all that out loud, I'm thinking the biggest over biked offenders are riders on rolling terrain which lack the high speed, chunky descents. When you ad challenging vert into the mix the chances of being over biked drop off quickly.

    Who knows.

  31. #231
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    Well here upnorth we can see many riders are overbiked.
    They buy new toys to compensate for lack of skills.
    I ride a used HT and i keep my $ to ride often, vacations.
    The bullshit is selling.
    Why buy a new bike to ride it 20 times a year?
    I am not in big jumps.

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33red View Post
    Well here upnorth we can see many riders are overbiked.
    They buy new toys to compensate for lack of skills.
    I ride a used HT and i keep my $ to ride often, vacations.
    The bullshit is selling.
    Why buy a new bike to ride it 20 times a year?
    I am not in big jumps.
    I wouldn't consider buying a bike to compensate for lack of skills overbiked. Very talented pros can do A-line on a cyclocross bike. I wouldn't recommend that for most people.

    Was riding my trail bike at Angel Fire last weekend. My buddy was riding my DH. Rode most of the same trails I normally ride, except some of the double blacks. Wiped out three times. Two major ones. I think the margin of error was just that much smaller and my skills just a hair off. Would have loved to have been overbiked.

    I would tell newbs to get the most bike that makes sense for their trails and they can afford. They can always down size as they get better.

    Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk
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  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    It is ironic that the longer and gnarlier the descent (more vert) the longer the climb. So, you could argue that perhaps a bigger bike is not ideal. Its like a paradox of mountain biking.

    It is to be expected that no one bike will be perfectly suited to all conditions and terrain encountered on relatively rugged, all-mountain ride (pardon the expression). Its when you spend 95% of your ride hauling around too much bike for the 5% where it's in the zone.

    Would it be over biked if you hit some legit black diamond terrain, lasting say 3 minutes, over a 20 minute descent, when you factor in you had haul a big bike up a 2 hour climb?

    At first thought I'd definitely say that was an over biked case. But, when I think of my rig, I don't know. I love tech climbing but also love the DH. Not a huge fan of rolling terrain unless its very techy. Never weighed my rig but I'd say its about 32#. Aluminum frame, coil on both ends, and 150/130mm. It climbs tech like a beast and descends way better than a bike of those proportions should. But I will say, that any more bike, or more travel would likely be a big hinderance on the climbs.

    So, after thinking all that out loud, I'm thinking the biggest over biked offenders are riders on rolling terrain which lack the high speed, chunky descents. When you ad challenging vert into the mix the chances of being over biked drop off quickly.

    Who knows.
    What bike are you currently riding?

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninjichor View Post
    "Climbs just fine"

    34 miles in 6 hours. 2309 calories. A lot of sitting around or really slow pace. For reference, XC riders do that in about half the time.
    Are you local? I only know one other person who's done this particular ride (it requires a vehicle shuttle) and he wasn't going for time either. Or are you just saying theoretically an XC rider doing the same distance/vertical gain could do it in half the time assuming I was going for it rather than taking pics, bullshitting with people at the summit, etc. Which I definitely was, haha!

    Really though, if you wanted to make a better comparo you'd take the same person on a lighter bike on a climbing segment and look at those. I've got that too. Part of the local shred hill starts with a 1000 foot fairly XC-ish climb. I rode my 5010 2 weeks before getting the new HD4. 34 minutes on the 5010, 36 on the HD4.

    Worth noting the 5010 wasn't even set up 'XC', it's got the classic DHF/DHRII combo, not the fastest rollers. I've done that climb on it in 30 minutes flat with a 2.25" ardent race out back. So yes, trail/XC bikes are gonna be faster uphill. BUT it's also worth noting I PR'd nearly all the downhill trails on the HD4 first ride with the suspension not even dialed yet.

    No new info there, but what I wanted to get across is take your theoretical XC rider and put him on a modern enduro bike, I bet he loses a few minutes on the climbs but has more fun with less "oh shit" moments on the way down, especially if he's riding gnar. He might not choose that for his next XC race, but he might very well get himself a bigger bike for fun rides.

  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    I guess I am not getting what the point of this thread is.

    You are asking if being over-biked is a thing of the past.

    Your own opinion on this seems to be yes.

    To make your point, you describe your riding as basically the gnarliest of old school downhill lift serve, and that a 165/180mm is not being over-biked.

    But in that case, being “overbiked” is not a thing of the past, it was never the case to begin with. Nobody has EVER considered 165/180mm too much bike for that.

    So you are making the point that long travel bikes are better at super gnarly terrain. OK, sure. Everybody already knows this. So what is new, here?
    I came into this thread thinking that with the latest breed of longtravel pedalble bikes being overbike was indeed a thing of the past. And it i guess for me it is given my style.

    But i didnt account for other types of riding requiring less bike. My end conclusion is that you can be overbiked particularly if you have a xc/peda/climb focus.

    Either way i have enjoyed the discussion, so it has been a worthey thread for me.

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Why do these discussions always come down to people unzipping their pants and pulling out a tape measure?
    I tried doing that, but then realized that I needed a micrometer.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    I tried doing that, but then realized that I needed a micrometer.
    I bet it's faster on the climbs, tho.

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Why do these discussions always come down to people unzipping their pants and pulling out a tape measure?
    Do you think it would help if the discussion started with this instead?

  39. #239
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    I would think that more people are underbiked at this point, especially since the enduro scene has filled in the gap between xc and dh. It really comes down to "Is your bike holding you back from progressing?"
    We don't ride to add days to our life, we ride to add life to the days we have left here.

  40. #240
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    I have a ride buddy that came up with this reasoning for a new bike:

    "I want a bike that lets me ride miles comfortably. I won't take it off jumps"

    I replied, "hah, if you ever ride it with me, you'll learn something about peer pressure" and "didn't you say something similar before you bought your last bike, but you built it up heavier anyways?"

    This is why I tell "social" riders who join group rides, to get a bike that levels out the playing field. It's far from ideal to be riding in a group, with other riders on typical geared trail bikes, taking your singlespeed, unless you're a riding god and actually have to tone yourself down to suit the group's level.

    If you ride solo, any junk would work, as long as it's not breaking down. It's the egotistical part of your mind, that wants to compare to others, that drives demand for a bike that does better at whatever you feel you help with.

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by plummet View Post
    I came into this thread thinking that with the latest breed of longtravel pedalble bikes being overbike was indeed a thing of the past. And it i guess for me it is given my style.

    But i didnt account for other types of riding requiring less bike. My end conclusion is that you can be overbiked particularly if you have a xc/peda/climb focus.

    Either way i have enjoyed the discussion, so it has been a worthey thread for me.
    Glad you got something out of it!
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    What bike are you currently riding?
    Knolly Endorphin. CC Inline coil out back, MRP Ribbon coil up front. Had been running Maxxis 2.6" tires, but move over to the tougher 2.5 WTs DHF/R. Great bike. Fits me like a glove. Really dialed. 150/130 and probably weighs over 30# (I don't weigh my bikes).

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Knolly Endorphin. CC Inline coil out back, MRP Ribbon coil up front. Had been running Maxxis 2.6" tires, but move over to the tougher 2.5 WTs DHF/R. Great bike. Fits me like a glove. Really dialed. 150/130 and probably weighs over 30# (I don't weigh my bikes).
    Nice. The Knollys are bad ass bikes. One of the requirements when I bought my new bike was threaded BB so they made the short list. I would have liked to have demoed one but, short of flying to the manufacturer, finding demo bikes in my area is hard unless it's a Trek or a Specialized. I ended up with a HD4 and I am pretty happy with it thus far. Been on it for about 6 weeks now.

    What made you switch back to 2.5s out of curiosity? What width wheels are running?

    And I don't weigh my bikes either. Could care less.

  44. #244
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    Went and rode Predator on Tiger Mt. today, referenced in this thread. I was totally biked. Not under or over, just biked.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Overbiked almost a thing of the past?-pred1.jpg  

    Overbiked almost a thing of the past?-pred2.jpg  

    Overbiked almost a thing of the past?-pred5.jpg  


  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_slacker View Post
    Went and rode Predator on Tiger Mt. today, referenced in this thread. I was totally biked. Not under or over, just biked.
    Nice. Looka like a worthy trail and ride.

  46. #246
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    I must say, I am pretty jealous of you PNW guys. The trails look incredible.

  47. #247
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    Overbiked is frequent.
    Buy a nice new bike.
    Work to pay it.
    Buy a used bike
    take a vacation to enjoy it !

  48. #248
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    I do not mind being overbiked ...except I am less fond of road connectors over 3 miles on my 6 inch bike and would rather do those on my hardtail. I will ride 20 miles of road on my hardtail to get to a trail, but won't choose to do that on my FS

    on dirt I kinda want to be on my FS fulltime now...spent 30 years on hardtails smashing, now I'm loving monster-trucking in the woods.
    "Put your seatbelt back on or get out and sit in the middle of that circle of death." - Johnny Scoot

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by 33red View Post
    Overbiked is frequent.
    Buy a nice new bike.
    Work to pay it.
    Buy a used bike
    take a vacation to enjoy it !
    Not everyone is putting these bikes on credit cards. Well, I put mine on one to get the cashback and then paid it. Vacations too. F debt, unless it's a lower interest rate than the return on what you get using it.

  50. #250
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    I like a bigger bike because I'm over 50yo and don't like to finish a longer ride feeling like I was just beat up. I guess I have a short penis.

  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_slacker View Post
    Went and rode Predator on Tiger Mt. today, referenced in this thread. I was totally biked. Not under or over, just biked.
    Cool. Now I have to try Predator after I switched my bike to enduro mode.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  52. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    Cool. Now I have to try Predator after I switched my bike to enduro mode.
    it is a great trail you will have plenty of fun on there with your shreddog in enduro mode.

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    Nice. The Knollys are bad ass bikes. One of the requirements when I bought my new bike was threaded BB so they made the short list. I would have liked to have demoed one but, short of flying to the manufacturer, finding demo bikes in my area is hard unless it's a Trek or a Specialized. I ended up with a HD4 and I am pretty happy with it thus far. Been on it for about 6 weeks now.

    What made you switch back to 2.5s out of curiosity? What width wheels are running?

    And I don't weigh my bikes either. Could care less.

    A next bike in the running for me, as I want a 29er, is the Ibis Ripmo. They make a beautiful bike, are a great company, and seem to be able to make a bike that is both capable yet not cumbersome on routine trail rides.

    Maxxis 2.5 vs 2.6. These are very different tires, and IMO have different applications. I've run them both on i35s and i29 rims. The 2.6 was better on the wider, the 2.5 better on the narrower. The 2.6 is a great trail tire for lower speed riding. Great for rock crawling as the traction is supper. Fast on smoother trails - roll really well. But they are bouncy when hitting chunk at speed so offer a much less controlled ride when the going gets rough. The 2.6s are also much more fragile. To get their benefit you need lower pressure, but then you at times rim ding, and I've cut them that way. The 2.5s don't roll as well, but maintain composure over fast chunk and are more durable.

  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    A next bike in the running for me, as I want a 29er, is the Ibis Ripmo. They make a beautiful bike, are a great company, and seem to be able to make a bike that is both capable yet not cumbersome on routine trail rides.

    Maxxis 2.5 vs 2.6. These are very different tires, and IMO have different applications. I've run them both on i35s and i29 rims. The 2.6 was better on the wider, the 2.5 better on the narrower. The 2.6 is a great trail tire for lower speed riding. Great for rock crawling as the traction is supper. Fast on smoother trails - roll really well. But they are bouncy when hitting chunk at speed so offer a much less controlled ride when the going gets rough. The 2.6s are also much more fragile. To get their benefit you need lower pressure, but then you at times rim ding, and I've cut them that way. The 2.5s don't roll as well, but maintain composure over fast chunk and are more durable.
    I have already ruined one Exo Casing DHF on the back on my HD4. Relatively large drop with a prettyflat landing. I normally run 18 PSI but I have been running more since I had that happen. My rims are 34 mm wide so I am not sure how well a 2.5 WT would work but I have contemplated dropping down as well. I know they say 30-35 for the WT tires but is seems like it would flatten the profile out little running the 2.5 on my wheels. For better or worse??? Also considering cush core.

  55. #255
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    I live in BC where I chose mostly chunky tech to ride. Not everyone has this option. I ride a Switchblade which can feel underbiked very occasionally but keeps me from riding beyond my limits. It's overkill for flow trails and xc but I mainly avoid that type of riding. It's about the trails you ride, rider ability, risk aversion, comfort level and how hard you ride so no bike category is perfect for every rider even on the same trail.

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    I have already ruined one Exo Casing DHF on the back on my HD4. Relatively large drop with a prettyflat landing. I normally run 18 PSI but I have been running more since I had that happen. My rims are 34 mm wide so I am not sure how well a 2.5 WT would work but I have contemplated dropping down as well. I know they say 30-35 for the WT tires but is seems like it would flatten the profile out little running the 2.5 on my wheels. For better or worse??? Also considering cush core.
    That's interesting. I'm also running 2.6 DHF front and rear on my HD4. They don't roll super fast and I'm guessing the rear won't last long. I've been running them at 20 front, 22 rear. I haven't noticed them feeling too bouncy at speed through rocks/roots, they feel good to me.

    I have also been wondering though what a 2.5 front and maybe an aggressor rear combo would be like.

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_slacker View Post
    That's interesting. I'm also running 2.6 DHF front and rear on my HD4. They don't roll super fast and I'm guessing the rear won't last long. I've been running them at 20 front, 22 rear. I haven't noticed them feeling too bouncy at speed through rocks/roots, they feel good to me.

    I have also been wondering though what a 2.5 front and maybe an aggressor rear combo would be like.
    It's excellent. Came stock like that on my Ripmo.

  58. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_slacker View Post
    That's interesting. I'm also running 2.6 DHF front and rear on my HD4. They don't roll super fast and I'm guessing the rear won't last long. I've been running them at 20 front, 22 rear. I haven't noticed them feeling too bouncy at speed through rocks/roots, they feel good to me.

    I have also been wondering though what a 2.5 front and maybe an aggressor rear combo would be like.
    I have been running 20/22 as well since I ruined the tire and I don't have any complaints about the 2.6s feeling bouncy either but I don't have anything to compare it to. I am going to have to do a little more research on running 2.5WTs on 34mm rims. I have considered going to a 2.5 Aggressor in the rear but mainly just because that is the widest Aggressor available. Seems like a 2.5 on that wide of wheel would give you a less than ideal profile and potentially hurt cornering traction.

  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale-Calgary View Post
    It's excellent. Came stock like that on my Ripmo.
    What width wheels come on the Ripmo?

  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by rynomx785 View Post
    What width wheels come on the Ripmo?
    2.5 front and back

  61. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale-Calgary View Post
    2.5 front and back
    I wanted to know what the internal width of the wheels were.

  62. #262
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    The 938 wheels on the Ripmo are 34mm ID too. I may have to give a 2.5 a try when it is time for a new back tire.

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