New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts... - Page 2- Mtbr.com
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  1. #201
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    New question here.

    Any update about the kickstart campaign?

  2. #202
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    yes. Sorry for the delays. Kickstarter alone takes a huge effort, much less starting a bike company. BUT, almost ready to go live next week.

    On another note, I am at Cyclofest with a couple bikes if anyone wants a demo

  3. #203
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    Kickstarter is ALIVE!!!!

    hey everyone, the beast that is the kickstarter presentation has been tamed and we are live.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ull-suspension

    Amazing response with 12 frames sold in a few hours since we went live today at noon. still some smokin early bird prices.

    thanks to all who helped get me here

    cheers,

    Brian

  4. #204
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    Demo Tests

    Did anyone get to test ride these recently that could offer up first ride impressions? Thanks!

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSlave View Post
    Did anyone get to test ride these recently that could offer up first ride impressions? Thanks!
    I too would be interested.

    So far I have only seen these:
    First Ride: Tantrum Cycles Missing Link Suspension - Pinkbike
    Tantrum Cycles goes live - First look & first ride of Outburst & Meltdown shape shifting mountain bikes - Bikerumor

    I thought I saw somewhere that Vital was going to be doing a review also but I haven't seen it yet.

  6. #206
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    Last edited by Aye; 11-18-2016 at 10:58 AM. Reason: wrong forum topic

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleSpeedSlave View Post
    Did anyone get to test ride these recently that could offer up first ride impressions? Thanks!
    I rode this bike yesterday with Brian and rode it along the lines of dirt bike. Throw it into corners, try and maintain corner speed and squirting out. This bike rails corners and then when it comes to stamping on the pedals on the exits, I didn’t feel the usual softened bob on back end of the bike on every downward pedal stroke. On the straighter level sections, I would speed up and literally feel the rear suspension firm up. It was like there was a hidden pump somewhere, which sensed when you pushed down on the pedals and would add some air to the shock and it would extend! The same was true when it came to climbing, the rear end would harden up, the shock would extend and you could feel the bike go forward and not bob and go forward. The bike has a neutral feeling, it rails corners with confidence and did not feeling top heavy. Also it wouldn’t get out of shape when hitting roots in corners at speed. Normally I would expect a bike to feel “skittery” in situations like that, but this bike felt planted, both front and rear. This one of the best f*cking bikes I have ever ridden. It’s in the “one bike for pretty much everything” category.

  8. #208
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    Sweet!! Can't wait to get mine in April next year!

  9. #209
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    First, thanks, Brian for making the trip south. I not only enjoyed riding the bike, but meeting you.

    Now, folks, about this bike. I rode the 29er. Yes, since these prototypes were designed for normal humans and not hulking mutants, it was too small for me, but only small enough to make me adjust my riding style for the first 300 yards of trail to sort out how to deal with being on too small a bike, and still trying to get it up to speed and around turns without hurting myself or the bike. If anything, the added awkwardness of the small frame/fit made the rest of my observations about the bike that much more impressive. If you're reading this, you've likely watched the videos Brian has put up, and read what he and other people have said about the bike. I don't want to write the same thing over and over again, or try to draw comparisons to stuff that just can't compare to what I experienced so I'll say this: The bike did exactly what the brochure said it does. I'll leave the advertising to other people, but I'll relate this little bit.

    I am very, very familiar with the trail we rode on (lock 4) and so I hand picked a three mile route to put the bike to the test, including what they somewhat optimistically call "the rock garden" there. It's really just rocky enough to tick you off, but not really a rock garden. It's a solid 60 yard or so section of trail that you can't quite just plow through because you might get a flat or beat a rim out, so you have to work a little. On a hard tail (my hardtail is also SS) the real problem isn't putting the bike where you want it and getting power down, it's keeping traction over the small square edges and leaf covered rocks. On a FS bike, it's being able to stand up and put enough body english on the bike to get it where you want it without killing yourself fighting the suspension while climbing this shallow rock covered grade. The Outburst was - I'll just say what I said to Brian after riding through there - it was like cheating. I had all the traction from riding my FS bike through there, and none of the fighting the suspension. Standing up and shifting the bike around, the bike pedaled like my hardtail, but I had traction for days.

    In short, if there's any doubt in your mind, and you can make it to somewhere Brian will be with these bikes, get your butt out there and get a leg over one of these things. And seriously, for those of you who fancy yourselves suspension experts, or amateur engineers, and are trying to figure out how this suspension works and get Brian to give you numbers to "prove what he's talking about" - get over it. You guys more than anyone else, I would encourage to ride this bike, and look at it, and think about this linkage in person. There's a reason he keeps telling you what he does when you ask those questions.

    Just in case anyone is skeptical - the bike was equipped with an X-fusion shock and a DVO fork. The bike was sagged to 30 or 35% (Brian put calipers on it to check) and I twice bottomed out the 140mm fork on drops (the fork may have been a little soft, but it wasn't far off being right) and did not bottom out the bike at all, nor did I ever get the sense that it wasn't THE most plush bike I've ever ridden. Yet, it still pedaled as well - better? - than the best bikes I've ridden. So if you're wondering why the bike is spec'd with one of the simplest shocks made, with very little adjustment, etc - it's because the linkage is so good, it doesn't need anything else.

    Go ride this bike. Go buy one. Buy two. Believe.

  10. #210
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    Brian,

    so production links will be forged, not cnc

    any new teaser pics of anything that will be a final production mold ?
    links or otherwise ?

  11. #211
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    Any pointers to test, ride reviews or just anything that can help in desicion wether to upgrade to Diamond or to be happy with the probably almost as plush Sweep rc HLR Roughcut?

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aye View Post
    I rode this bike yesterday with Brian and rode it along the lines of dirt bike. Throw it into corners, try and maintain corner speed and squirting out. This bike rails corners and then when it comes to stamping on the pedals on the exits, I didn’t feel the usual softened bob on back end of the bike on every downward pedal stroke. On the straighter level sections, I would speed up and literally feel the rear suspension firm up. It was like there was a hidden pump somewhere, which sensed when you pushed down on the pedals and would add some air to the shock and it would extend! The same was true when it came to climbing, the rear end would harden up, the shock would extend and you could feel the bike go forward and not bob and go forward. The bike has a neutral feeling, it rails corners with confidence and did not feeling top heavy. Also it wouldn’t get out of shape when hitting roots in corners at speed. Normally I would expect a bike to feel “skittery” in situations like that, but this bike felt planted, both front and rear. This one of the best f*cking bikes I have ever ridden. It’s in the “one bike for pretty much everything” category.
    Hi Aye,

    Thanks for the sweet review. I apologize again that I only had med/sm frame for you big guys, but it was interesting how quickly you forgot about the 400 mm reach.

    brian

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Sweet!! Can't wait to get mine in April next year!
    thanks keo. It's gonna be fun

  14. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    First, thanks, Brian for making the trip south. I not only enjoyed riding the bike, but meeting you.

    Now, folks, about this bike. I rode the 29er. Yes, since these prototypes were designed for normal humans and not hulking mutants, it was too small for me, but only small enough to make me adjust my riding style for the first 300 yards of trail to sort out how to deal with being on too small a bike, and still trying to get it up to speed and around turns without hurting myself or the bike. If anything, the added awkwardness of the small frame/fit made the rest of my observations about the bike that much more impressive. If you're reading this, you've likely watched the videos Brian has put up, and read what he and other people have said about the bike. I don't want to write the same thing over and over again, or try to draw comparisons to stuff that just can't compare to what I experienced so I'll say this: The bike did exactly what the brochure said it does. I'll leave the advertising to other people, but I'll relate this little bit.

    I am very, very familiar with the trail we rode on (lock 4) and so I hand picked a three mile route to put the bike to the test, including what they somewhat optimistically call "the rock garden" there. It's really just rocky enough to tick you off, but not really a rock garden. It's a solid 60 yard or so section of trail that you can't quite just plow through because you might get a flat or beat a rim out, so you have to work a little. On a hard tail (my hardtail is also SS) the real problem isn't putting the bike where you want it and getting power down, it's keeping traction over the small square edges and leaf covered rocks. On a FS bike, it's being able to stand up and put enough body english on the bike to get it where you want it without killing yourself fighting the suspension while climbing this shallow rock covered grade. The Outburst was - I'll just say what I said to Brian after riding through there - it was like cheating. I had all the traction from riding my FS bike through there, and none of the fighting the suspension. Standing up and shifting the bike around, the bike pedaled like my hardtail, but I had traction for days.

    In short, if there's any doubt in your mind, and you can make it to somewhere Brian will be with these bikes, get your butt out there and get a leg over one of these things. And seriously, for those of you who fancy yourselves suspension experts, or amateur engineers, and are trying to figure out how this suspension works and get Brian to give you numbers to "prove what he's talking about" - get over it. You guys more than anyone else, I would encourage to ride this bike, and look at it, and think about this linkage in person. There's a reason he keeps telling you what he does when you ask those questions.

    Just in case anyone is skeptical - the bike was equipped with an X-fusion shock and a DVO fork. The bike was sagged to 30 or 35% (Brian put calipers on it to check) and I twice bottomed out the 140mm fork on drops (the fork may have been a little soft, but it wasn't far off being right) and did not bottom out the bike at all, nor did I ever get the sense that it wasn't THE most plush bike I've ever ridden. Yet, it still pedaled as well - better? - than the best bikes I've ridden. So if you're wondering why the bike is spec'd with one of the simplest shocks made, with very little adjustment, etc - it's because the linkage is so good, it doesn't need anything else.

    Go ride this bike. Go buy one. Buy two. Believe.
    Mr. Cothyarus, thank you. First for encouraging me to drive down and demo the bike. Yes, while Lock 4 was not technical mayhem, it certainly had enough difficult sections to illustrate the bike's potential.

    Your review? Believe it or not, I am a little humbled. The reality of what I am doing (about to do?) is something that I don't like to look to intently at. It's a little too big and I don't like to look it directly in the eye.

    What am I talking about? NOT starting a bike company, as monumental a task as that is. But by defining a new standard, no scratch that, we have enough new standards; By defining a new level of performance for the full suspension mountain bike. The relentless drum beat of EVERY SINGLE PERSON that rides the bike, pretty much saying the same thing. I am starting to pay attention to what I've done. it's sinking in a little and I still don't want to look it in the eye.

    but I will.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    Brian,

    so production links will be forged, not cnc

    any new teaser pics of anything that will be a final production mold ?
    links or otherwise ?
    There is still a chance that the links will be cnc for the kickstarter bikes, both for time and mold costs. That raises my cost a bit, but.....fine.

    After the new year, I'll take a trip to Taiwan and get some spy shots.

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Any pointers to test, ride reviews or just anything that can help in desicion wether to upgrade to Diamond or to be happy with the probably almost as plush Sweep rc HLR Roughcut?

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    The only thing I can say about the forks is that I am trying to get a lot of time on both and do much back to back testing, so i can be more detailed in my opinion

  17. #217
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    As a skeptic from page 1, I just want to say great job on this! The reviews are coming in, and it appears to be real.
    2016 SC 5010
    2017 Norco Torrent
    2014 Giant Trance (the boy's)
    2014 Kona Process 134a (the other boy's)

  18. #218
    Aye
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    The reviews are correct, the system works, see and try it for yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    As a skeptic from page 1, I just want to say great job on this! The reviews are coming in, and it appears to be real.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    The only thing I can say about the forks is that I am trying to get a lot of time on both and do much back to back testing, so i can be more detailed in my opinion
    Sounds Good Brian.

    It appears DVO got a more solid agency here in Scandinavia regarding support and spareparts.
    I have still not managed to get a single respons from the Norwegian X-fusion rep...

    What is the length of the rear shock?

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  20. #220
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    Yeah, it didn't feel "small" or cramped at all and i was able to move round on the bike easily without banging my knees on anything.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyle242gt View Post
    As a skeptic from page 1, I just want to say great job on this! The reviews are coming in, and it appears to be real.
    Kyle,

    Skepticism is healthy. Thanks for being an open minded skeptic. I do appreciate it.

    More reviews coming....

  22. #222
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    ISCG tabs?

    One question: what about ISCG tabs?

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    One question: what about ISCG tabs?
    yes. not 05

  24. #224
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    Hey Everyone,

    Tantrum Cycles Kickstarter has been a roaring success, nearly 99% funded with 5 weeks to go. But I want to double it!

    To kick it off, I created, wait for it...the ORTHOdontist Special...the frame isn't carbon, but the rest of the bike is!. Light, fast, wicked and expensive...

    but take a look at the CYBER monday deal on our kickstarter, so low, it's almost like getting the frame for free.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ull-suspension

    thanks again to all our backers and supporters. There will be additional deals posted on Kickstarter throught the day, including upgrades for existing backers. Help me rock this thing!!

    By the way, in addition to Richard Cunnningham's review here:

    First Ride: Tantrum Cycles Missing Link Suspension - Pinkbike

    and Zach Overholt's here:

    https://www.bikerumor.com/2016/11/03...omment-3190720

    There are some reviews from our demo rides surfacing:

    http://forums.mtbr.com/all-mountain/...e-1027665.html

    They are all starting to sound similar.....

    cheers,

    Brian

  25. #225
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    For those of you following along, I shot an email to Brian at his site. My questions had legit content but I also wanted to know how receptive his operation was with dealing with potential customers direct.


    A big factor in which bike brand I go with is how available accessible the business is. Mountain bikes are ridden hard and there will always be issues with any brand - but, it is how receptive the business is with dealing with customers directly.

    Anyway, not only did he get back to me right away (less than a day I think), but he addressed my question and concerns thoroughly.


    Brian,

    Unless its been addressed in this thread, and I missed it, can we veer away from your bikes' pedaling performance and talk about its suspension behavior on the downhills?

    On a personal note I'm seriously looking at one of your frames and would like to know it would work for me (and others with the same style, of course).

    I've been riding a Pivot Mach 6 for the past three years, but have also owned several Santa Cruz bikes (both VPP and high SP), two FSR style frames, and am also on a DH bike (2015 Giant Glory). Our Northeast terrain is rocky, with punchy, out of the saddle, techy climbs. We are lucky enough to have some real AM riding, where the climbs are as tough as the descents.

    The Mach 6 has been my favorite bike. The Float X did need a tune to give it more LSC. It pedals well and really feels amazing on the downs. I'm a fan of running more LSC, not only for pedaling platform, but to keep the bike higher in its travel. I don't like super soft feeling bikes that blow through their travel with weight shifts and pumping - then you are left with next to nothing when you do take a hit. Suspension is for going fast, not for comfort. Of course its nice to have the LSC blow off when the going gets fast and rough.

    Anyway, can you speak to us regarding your thoughts on your approach, design, and performance of your suspension on the downs?


    I see you have two rear shocks available for your frames. The Fusion and the DVO. Can you give us your thoughts on how much more performance one might get out of the DVO?

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    The Mach 6 has been my favorite bike.
    Slightly OT, but I just wanted to say don't get rid of the Mach 6. I sympathise with wanting a fresh ride, but it's a sweet bike and until you know you've got something else that is so amazing you'll never ride it again it's worth hanging on to. Even if you need to strip the parts off the frame to move to a new whip.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post

    Brian,

    Unless its been addressed in this thread, and I missed it, can we veer away from your bikes' pedaling performance and talk about its suspension behavior on the downhills?

    On a personal note I'm seriously looking at one of your frames and would like to know it would work for me (and others with the same style, of course).

    I've been riding a Pivot Mach 6 for the past three years, but have also owned several Santa Cruz bikes (both VPP and high SP), two FSR style frames, and am also on a DH bike (2015 Giant Glory). Our Northeast terrain is rocky, with punchy, out of the saddle, techy climbs. We are lucky enough to have some real AM riding, where the climbs are as tough as the descents.

    The Mach 6 has been my favorite bike. The Float X did need a tune to give it more LSC. It pedals well and really feels amazing on the downs. I'm a fan of running more LSC, not only for pedaling platform, but to keep the bike higher in its travel. I don't like super soft feeling bikes that blow through their travel with weight shifts and pumping - then you are left with next to nothing when you do take a hit. Suspension is for going fast, not for comfort. Of course its nice to have the LSC blow off when the going gets fast and rough.

    Anyway, can you speak to us regarding your thoughts on your approach, design, and performance of your suspension on the downs?


    I see you have two rear shocks available for your frames. The Fusion and the DVO. Can you give us your thoughts on how much more performance one might get out of the DVO?
    Hi Mike,

    I'm sure these questions have been strangled elsewhere in this thread, but let me address them.

    I'm reasonably familiar with NE terrain. I raced the Mt Snow NORBA DH many times in the 90's. The punchy, out of the saddle techy climbs were where RC at B said "pedals better than all of them". Cotharyus said "it's like cheating".

    Seriously, this bikes climbing ability is worth time and energy. And fun. You can clear stuff you couldn't before. Easier. It's been a common refrain from all testers.

    The cool thing is that the transition is so seamless and instant. For example, you go down into a g-out followed by a steep, short climb. As the bike compresses at the bottom and you jump on the pedals, it responds. The back is up, the geo is steep and you are propelling up the hill.

    On the descents, I have engineered the spring force through the travel to ride slightly lower than static sag during fast rough descents. i want the geometry to slacken. I want the wheel to be able to move instantly to bumps. I want the increased negative travel to keep the tire in contact during this time.

    It's difficult to discuss LSC and such in the context of a conventional suspension. I would surmise that much of the blowing through the travel on modern bikes is more down to the misguided effort to provide even larger and larger air cans, which DO NOT make the spring curve more linear OR more coil like. Just dead in the middle, with not enough force increase as the suspension compresses.

    Obviously, some amount of LSC is good, as with all damping. My advantage is that I can tune the damping solely for bump performance, not pedaling or climbing. I like soft initial response. I want that wheel to move. I want the tire on the ground. I want the back of the bike to stay down, keeping the geometry slack and stable.

    About midway thru the travel is where I want the support to ramp up, giving a "platform" for maneuvers and a nice progressive rate to full travel.

    It is about speed. When the reviews quoted are talking about the security in rooty corners, it's because the back is down and on the ground. Not skipping sideways and deflecting.

    As a side note, both the Xfusion and DVO shocks have very useful compression adjustment. By useful, I mean each click adds a subtle change, no lockout, no platform, but enough to compensate for weight and preference without hurting performance. This is important as any platform or lockout is completely unneeded and redundant on this bike.

    The DVO is much more adjustable. You can even adjust negative spring force. It also has a very low starting force, the lowest I've seen for an air shock. This ads a bit more "supple" at the top of the stroke.

    How much more performance? I'm still playing with the tuning options and optimizing.......

    more later...

    cheers,

    Brian

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    On every "3 position" OEM shock I've ever ridden, the "descent"/"bump absorbing" setting is a joke. It wallows all over the place and blows through travel. There's no chassis stability and it's poor for DH. The middle setting usually is much more stable, resists g-outs, etc. The only problem is that on most OEM tune shocks, they sacrifice the high-speed damping in this setting ...
    Bit of a strange thread this one with so many people playing engineer and apparently ganging up on a real one ... always a bit sorry to see that happen.

    Jayem: I have a Ibis HD3 and I use the "open" setting of the FLOAT DPS most of the time ... it works great, in either #1 or #2 position, #3 is a bit too stiff for me unless the terrain is really muddy. No wallowing and no blowing through its travel ... actually the bike climbs like a goat, even with the slack geometry induced by a 160 fork, and descend stellarly.

    But to the point: I would like to try the Tantrum system and the frame looks nice (besides the green fork ... aaargh). It would be eventually nice to see a carbon version weighting in the 6 pounds range and a 27.5 in 130-140 travel.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    There is still a chance that the links will be cnc for the kickstarter bikes, both for time and mold costs. That raises my cost a bit, but.....fine.

    After the new year, I'll take a trip to Taiwan and get some spy shots.
    Hi Brian,

    Does this mean the final production mold may take different shapes resulting different look of the bike that we see on the kickstarter site and your videos?

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    Bit of a strange thread this one with so many people playing engineer and apparently ganging up on a real one ... always a bit sorry to see that happen.

    Jayem: I have a Ibis HD3 and I use the "open" setting of the FLOAT DPS most of the time ... it works great, in either #1 or #2 position, #3 is a bit too stiff for me unless the terrain is really muddy. No wallowing and no blowing through its travel ... actually the bike climbs like a goat, even with the slack geometry induced by a 160 fork, and descend stellarly.

    But to the point: I would like to try the Tantrum system and the frame looks nice (besides the green fork ... aaargh). It would be eventually nice to see a carbon version weighting in the 6 pounds range and a 27.5 in 130-140 travel.
    Hi Davide,

    It's the internet. There are a few "engineers" that stalk the forums to proclaim their superior knowledge anonymously. Standard Operating Procedure.

    They've been a little more quiet since more reviews are coming in.

    The green fork is also available in black.

    Right now, the bike could actually be configured as a 125 or 140 mm travel 27.5 (or 29). No carbon frame yet (working on it), but you could build a 125 mm bike up easily in the 26 lb range.

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetorange View Post
    Hi Brian,

    Does this mean the final production mold may take different shapes resulting different look of the bike that we see on the kickstarter site and your videos?
    Hi Sweet,

    No, the final production molds will replicate the CNC part. The shape is the shape. The only real visual clue to the production bikes that, like every other bike out there, the seat tube has to be bent to get the trendy short CS. I hated to do it to the simple, straight seatpost, but the short CS is worth it.

    cheers,

    Brian

  32. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    For those of you following along, I shot an email to Brian at his site. My questions had legit content but I also wanted to know how receptive his operation was with dealing with potential customers direct.


    A big factor in which bike brand I go with is how available accessible the business is. Mountain bikes are ridden hard and there will always be issues with any brand - but, it is how receptive the business is with dealing with customers directly.

    Anyway, not only did he get back to me right away (less than a day I think), but he addressed my question and concerns thoroughly.


    Brian,

    Unless its been addressed in this thread, and I missed it, can we veer away from your bikes' pedaling performance and talk about its suspension behavior on the downhills?

    On a personal note I'm seriously looking at one of your frames and would like to know it would work for me (and others with the same style, of course).

    I've been riding a Pivot Mach 6 for the past three years, but have also owned several Santa Cruz bikes (both VPP and high SP), two FSR style frames, and am also on a DH bike (2015 Giant Glory). Our Northeast terrain is rocky, with punchy, out of the saddle, techy climbs. We are lucky enough to have some real AM riding, where the climbs are as tough as the descents.

    The Mach 6 has been my favorite bike. The Float X did need a tune to give it more LSC. It pedals well and really feels amazing on the downs. I'm a fan of running more LSC, not only for pedaling platform, but to keep the bike higher in its travel. I don't like super soft feeling bikes that blow through their travel with weight shifts and pumping - then you are left with next to nothing when you do take a hit. Suspension is for going fast, not for comfort. Of course its nice to have the LSC blow off when the going gets fast and rough.

    Anyway, can you speak to us regarding your thoughts on your approach, design, and performance of your suspension on the downs?


    I see you have two rear shocks available for your frames. The Fusion and the DVO. Can you give us your thoughts on how much more performance one might get out of the DVO?
    Mike, I'll throw some thoughts out there for you. I rode a Mach 6 at a Pivot test, so when I tell you this bike pedals better than a Mach 6, I mean it. Of course, I rode the 125mm travel 29er, so maybe you'd be more impressed if I told you that it pedaled better than a Mach 429, which up until my Tantrum test ride was the best pedaling FS bike I'd ever ridden.

    Downhill, Brian has already said it's all about speed. My first few runs on the shallow but fast downhills where I demo'd were closer to the speeds I usually ride on my 100mm travel FS XC bike, and the Tantrum was plush, but didn't feel ultra soft, like I was blowing through travel just moving around on the bike. The amount of sag did show itself in the rear as I was "popping off" some roots and rocks, and felt like I had to do more work to get the back end UP. I put all that to rest on the last big downhill we had, which is an old jeep trail with several 12-16 inch drops and lots of roots and babyhead chatter if you use the "fast" line (which I do). The repeated hits have packed up the suspension on my XC bike more than once at speed, and make it hard to run this descent without using the brakes. I decided to risk Brian's bike (and my life) by trying it, because so far the bike had given me no reason to believe it wouldn't do at least as well as my bike does - and not only did it not bottom out, it didn't pack up, and once the speeds got up, I had no issues getting the back end up when popping off some of the roots to "hop" over rougher sections.

    So in short, the most technical climb I did on the bike: Like cheating.
    Most technical/fast descent: If I get to do it again on one of these bikes, I won't brake going into the turn at the top (the last place I checked up on this run) and I suspect I'll still make it out the other end alive on a bike that remained composed.

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    A really interesting design and it's great to see the Kickstarter funded! Something like this would be nice for the front end too ;-).

    A question though - I can see how backward forces from bumps would unlock the suspension like a tap behind the knee. But what happens with flat or back wheel landings where the force is up or forward even? Won't the suspension stay locked?

    Cheers,
    John

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by John WB View Post
    A really interesting design and it's great to see the Kickstarter funded! Something like this would be nice for the front end too ;-).

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    Im a bit bummed the Motion France fork fundings are going slow.
    If I could afford one I would certainly have been on that list og funders to. Well I was, but just for a t-shirt..
    I really hope they get to production and that the fork turns out to be up for the job a Tantrum can do.
    . It's a nice thing the can have the controls above the stem. But I've suggested the should consider a kick-off down instead of lock-out.

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  35. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by John WB View Post
    A really interesting design and it's great to see the Kickstarter funded! Something like this would be nice for the front end too ;-).

    A question though - I can see how backward forces from bumps would unlock the suspension like a tap behind the knee. But what happens with flat or back wheel landings where the force is up or forward even? Won't the suspension stay locked?

    Cheers,
    John
    Hi John - I didn't notice anything out of the norm, when landing on the flat or rear wheel first. The rear suspension and the bike behaved and felt like a "normal" FS bike. The suspension acted like my own FS bike.

    Hope that helps

    Aye

  36. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by John WB View Post
    A really interesting design and it's great to see the Kickstarter funded! Something like this would be nice for the front end too ;-).

    A question though - I can see how backward forces from bumps would unlock the suspension like a tap behind the knee. But what happens with flat or back wheel landings where the force is up or forward even? Won't the suspension stay locked?

    Cheers,
    John
    the link appears to be just at the exact point where the leverage favors locking it out when pedaling, and the closer it gets to vertical, the easier it wants to 'lock' but any lack of fairly stiff pedal forces + any type of bump to the rear will make link bend. so I am imagining if you are downhilling whatsoever or leaping a jump and landing flat that link will not be exactly vertical, since you cannot possibly pedal hard enough mid-air to lock it...so it will be instantly ready to take the hit and send it to the shock

    so, if back wheel is in air, link is bent forward already,

    and if the landing is 'reversed' hit as you mentioned, pushing chainstays forward...it will also send wheel up at the same time, and the link must bend forward as it is already forward, it will not and cannot 'lock' in that scenario.

    only pedaling can put the link to lock
    Last edited by 127.0.0.1; 12-01-2016 at 08:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    yes. not 05
    One more question: Are the Kickstarter frames going to be delivered with BB and headtube already faced?

  38. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by John WB View Post
    A really interesting design and it's great to see the Kickstarter funded! Something like this would be nice for the front end too ;-).

    A question though - I can see how backward forces from bumps would unlock the suspension like a tap behind the knee. But what happens with flat or back wheel landings where the force is up or forward even? Won't the suspension stay locked?

    Cheers,
    John
    Hi John,

    That's actually a complicated question. It helps to separate the horizontal forces from the vertical and remember that forces in the two directions combine (or subtract) with/from each other to determine the final force on the shock. It kind comes down to; which force wins?, Although it's far from that simple.

    Here are some basics.

    1) the linkage never locks. To lock would require the driven link (from the rocker) to be in a straight, or over center position with the Missing Link. While that would work, the action between locking and unlocking would be stiff and obvious (ask me how I know).

    So, the key is to have the climbing force get the suspension NEAR locking. Into a bad "transmission angle". This means that the vertical force most now be proportionally higher than the horizontal force in order for the suspension to move. This prevents any bobbing or suspension movement from small vertical inputs.

    BUT and this is a huge but (get it), as soon as the wheel strikes a bump, there is a horizontal force to the rear, which rotates the Missing Link forward into the knee action. At this instant, the combined horizontal force, even though you are still climbing, is not enough to prevent the vertical bump force from allowing the suspension to compress for the bump. So it moves for that bump only while still climbing at a steep geometry, feeling like a hardtail.

    2) to get to your question about bumps. In the air, the suspension is full extended, the links are in a near straight position, or bad transmission angle. But there is zero climbing or pedaling force to keep it that way, the shock force is at its's lowest (close to zero) and the vertical force from landing is very high. It has to compress instantly.

    You mention a possibility of a forward force when landing. You would pretty much have to land with the bike straight up, front wheel directly over the rear, with a purely vertical trajectory. Not recommended. Otherwise, the force is always up and to the rear when encountering bumps or landings.

    I hope that doesn't confuse things.

    cheers,

    Brian

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    One more question: Are the Kickstarter frames going to be delivered with BB and headtube already faced?
    Yes. BB and HT will be faced and ready. In fact, we are offering an option to have them already installed.

    b

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    BUT and this is a huge but (get it), as soon as the wheel strikes a bump, there is a horizontal force to the rear, which rotates the Missing Link forward into the knee action. At this instant, the combined horizontal force, even though you are still climbing, is not enough to prevent the vertical bump force from allowing the suspension to compress for the bump. So it moves for that bump only while still climbing at a steep geometry, feeling like a hardtail.
    Thanks Brian,

    I see how that works. So under pedal power the terrain gradient affects how firm the ride is, with the rear end being softer on steeper downhills, and firmer on steep climbs because of the horizontal component of body-weight forces? A wheelie under power through a rock garden might feel a bit firmer then with a conventional FS design?

    Cheers,
    John

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Hi John,

    That's actually a complicated question. It helps to separate the horizontal forces from the vertical and remember that forces in the two directions combine (or subtract) with/from each other to determine the final force on the shock. It kind comes down to; which force wins?, Although it's far from that simple.

    Here are some basics.

    1) the linkage never locks. To lock would require the driven link (from the rocker) to be in a straight, or over center position with the Missing Link. While that would work, the action between locking and unlocking would be stiff and obvious (ask me how I know).

    So, the key is to have the climbing force get the suspension NEAR locking. Into a bad "transmission angle". This means that the vertical force most now be proportionally higher than the horizontal force in order for the suspension to move. This prevents any bobbing or suspension movement from small vertical inputs.

    BUT and this is a huge but (get it), as soon as the wheel strikes a bump, there is a horizontal force to the rear, which rotates the Missing Link forward into the knee action. At this instant, the combined horizontal force, even though you are still climbing, is not enough to prevent the vertical bump force from allowing the suspension to compress for the bump. So it moves for that bump only while still climbing at a steep geometry, feeling like a hardtail.

    2) to get to your question about bumps. In the air, the suspension is full extended, the links are in a near straight position, or bad transmission angle. But there is zero climbing or pedaling force to keep it that way, the shock force is at its's lowest (close to zero) and the vertical force from landing is very high. It has to compress instantly.

    You mention a possibility of a forward force when landing. You would pretty much have to land with the bike straight up, front wheel directly over the rear, with a purely vertical trajectory. Not recommended. Otherwise, the force is always up and to the rear when encountering bumps or landings.

    I hope that doesn't confuse things.

    cheers,

    Brian
    Brian, I have to admit that when I read this, I'm reminded of the first time I read your explanations and walk throughs on the websites and videos. I thought yeah, that sounds good. I wonder if it works. Having ridden it, I almost think the right answer to these questions would be trust me, it works just like it should. Just ride it. But I'm sure ultimately, your answer is more satisfactory.

    (JB, even if Brian's explanation convinces you that the bike "works fine" you still need to ride it. I'm sure it's lightyears better than you imagine it is.)

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Right now, the bike could actually be configured as a 125 or 140 mm travel 27.5 (or 29). No carbon frame yet (working on it), but you could build a 125 mm bike up easily in the 26 lb range.
    Hi Brian, could you please tell us something more about this interesting option: 27.5 140mm travel (BB drop, geometry, intended fork length, availability, ....)
    Thanks

  43. #243
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    You mentioned something about the frame/design being FD compatible, but doesn't look like there are any provisions for it, so I think you meant that theoretically. CAn you confirm that the bikes will not accept an FD as they will be produced ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Mike, I'll throw some thoughts out there for you. I rode a Mach 6 at a Pivot test, so when I tell you this bike pedals better than a Mach 6, I mean it. Of course, I rode the 125mm travel 29er, so maybe you'd be more impressed if I told you that it pedaled better than a Mach 429, which up until my Tantrum test ride was the best pedaling FS bike I'd ever ridden.

    Downhill, Brian has already said it's all about speed. My first few runs on the shallow but fast downhills where I demo'd were closer to the speeds I usually ride on my 100mm travel FS XC bike, and the Tantrum was plush, but didn't feel ultra soft, like I was blowing through travel just moving around on the bike. The amount of sag did show itself in the rear as I was "popping off" some roots and rocks, and felt like I had to do more work to get the back end UP. I put all that to rest on the last big downhill we had, which is an old jeep trail with several 12-16 inch drops and lots of roots and babyhead chatter if you use the "fast" line (which I do). The repeated hits have packed up the suspension on my XC bike more than once at speed, and make it hard to run this descent without using the brakes. I decided to risk Brian's bike (and my life) by trying it, because so far the bike had given me no reason to believe it wouldn't do at least as well as my bike does - and not only did it not bottom out, it didn't pack up, and once the speeds got up, I had no issues getting the back end up when popping off some of the roots to "hop" over rougher sections.

    So in short, the most technical climb I did on the bike: Like cheating.
    Most technical/fast descent: If I get to do it again on one of these bikes, I won't brake going into the turn at the top (the last place I checked up on this run) and I suspect I'll still make it out the other end alive on a bike that remained composed.
    Cool, thanks.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by John WB View Post
    Thanks Brian,

    I see how that works. So under pedal power the terrain gradient affects how firm the ride is, with the rear end being softer on steeper downhills, and firmer on steep climbs because of the horizontal component of body-weight forces? A wheelie under power through a rock garden might feel a bit firmer then with a conventional FS design?

    Cheers,
    John
    Hi John,

    Sort of. When climbing, you are able to put a much great pedaling force in due to gravity pulling your weight backward. This extra force allows the rear to rise and steepen the geometry.

    On level ground, the resistance to forward motion due to gravity pulling your weight backward is very low, so you cannot pedal hard enough to extend the rear. But at this point, you can pedal hard enough to keep the rear firm, but at sag level.

    On a DH, you can only get slight firming, but the suspension will ride at a slightly lower sag level, giving more fork rake, lower cg.

    Anything under power will be firmer, just depends on circumstance. I personally, am not too good at wheeling under power thru rock gardens, but for example, a rocky technical climb will be firmer. You do not want or need 160 mm of travel. While it may "feel" more comfortable, it's not the fast way up the hill.

    It's so hard to explain all of this fully, because it's all a seamless continuum of conditions and forces

  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Brian, I have to admit that when I read this, I'm reminded of the first time I read your explanations and walk throughs on the websites and videos. I thought yeah, that sounds good. I wonder if it works. Having ridden it, I almost think the right answer to these questions would be trust me, it works just like it should. Just ride it. But I'm sure ultimately, your answer is more satisfactory.

    (JB, even if Brian's explanation convinces you that the bike "works fine" you still need to ride it. I'm sure it's lightyears better than you imagine it is.)
    Cotharyus, It's tough. It's so hard to try to explain the myriad of complex interactions, much less describe what it feels like to ride. I can say "Steeper geometry for climbing" but until you've ridden a bike that actively changes geometry, it's not possible for anybody to really understand what it feels like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Hi Brian, could you please tell us something more about this interesting option: 27.5 140mm travel (BB drop, geometry, intended fork length, availability, ....)
    Thanks
    Hi lavolpeeluva,

    I can't tell you much yet. I just put the shock on to check the action. I suspect I may want another dropout to optimize geometry, but haven't got that far yet. I'll give an update further down the road.

    I MIGHT, offer this configuration for the first production run...

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    You mentioned something about the frame/design being FD compatible, but doesn't look like there are any provisions for it, so I think you meant that theoretically. CAn you confirm that the bikes will not accept an FD as they will be produced ?
    Preston,

    The current bikes use a Der mount on the drive side Missing Link. Since the bikes you've seen are all 1 x, I don't have that link installed.

    The production bikes will have a bolt on direct mount.

  49. #249
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    That's awesome. Might be enough to put me over the edge and get me to sign up for an early frame, very intrigued by your design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    That's awesome. Might be enough to put me over the edge and get me to sign up for an early frame, very intrigued by your design.
    and I think I will add the 180 mm 27.5 to the Kickstarter offerings, but at a slightly higher price (new parts) and a 2 month later delivery, June/July.

    Think of it as an early 2018 model...

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    Brian there have been a few teaser posts about a 160mm 29'er.
    Is that available on the kickstarter and if so can you publish a geo chart ?

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    +1

    Since changing the geometry is integral to the design, it'd be interesting to see the range between climbing and descending.

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Brian there have been a few teaser posts about a 160mm 29'er.
    Is that available on the kickstarter and if so can you publish a geo chart ?
    Hi Preston,

    The 160 29er, code name "the shining", will be available on kickstarter, just specify.

    I have to work on a geo chart, as the proto is still a bit of a hodgepodge of parts.

    Think Meltdown with the 434 cS (instead of 429)

  54. #254
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    Bearing tool

    Hi Brian, a crazy idea inspired by Ibis (Ripley, bearing, Clemens, tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNaqtqMGwRg) for the Kickstarter campaign: what about a dedicated extractor/press bearing tool ?

  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Hi Brian, a crazy idea inspired by Ibis (Ripley, bearing, Clemens, tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNaqtqMGwRg) for the Kickstarter campaign: what about a dedicated extractor/press bearing tool ?
    Hmmm. Looks bling but expensive compared to the cheap press I use that also do the job just as fine...

    I would rather see the cost and effort going into properly sealed bearings! (HRS / RSH)

    http://evolution.skf.com/new-sealing...ball-bearings/

    http://www.schaeffler.de/content.sch..._groove_bb.jsp

    Combined with use-specific lubrication, I'm convinced it will increase the lifespan of bearings from significantly to possibly lifetime compared to use and rider weight.

    Use-specific lubricationprobably would probably means 100% amount of grease on applications with such low rotation as linkage pivots.
    Maybe a bit less is ideal on the faster spinning BB and wheels. But so far I have good experience so far with (as close as possible to) 100% amount of marine greas all over.

    Sorry I keep repeating myself, but the lack of quality and calculated life span limiting designs really annoys me since it's for a long time have been an proven fact in car and home electronics and other buissenesses..



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    Once you "launch" the kickstarter, are you producing these frames in US with you and local labor or contracting to a mfg ?

    If a bike is built with a 142 dropout, can the 148 dropouts be purchased and retro-fitted later ?

    Can you please bring demo bikes to Seattle or Bellingham ?!!! Huge community up here.

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Once you "launch" the kickstarter, are you producing these frames in US with you and local labor or contracting to a mfg ?

    If a bike is built with a 142 dropout, can the 148 dropouts be purchased and retro-fitted later ?

    Can you please bring demo bikes to Seattle or Bellingham ?!!! Huge community up here.
    For now, the frames will be made in taiwan. I just missed out on a couple of the last frame builders in the U.S......

    Yes, all dropout configurations will be retrofitable, including the new 180 mm rear travel......

    Love bellingham....someday i'll get back up there.

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    Looks like the real deal! I am very interested in making your bike my next bike of purchase.
    One question. If everything goes according to plan when is the estimated date for the release of the carbon version?
    Sorry if this was mentioned already in the post.

  59. #259
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    So just to confirm what I think I read back on page 3: These bikes are now press-fit BB? Dangit. One less thing I can do myself on bikes. Maybe it'll be one of the PF standards that I can convert back to threaded with a Praxis or something similar. I really don't want a PF BB. Threaded was a selling point for me. Dang.

  60. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    These bikes are now press-fit BB? Dangit. One less thing I can do myself on bikes. .
    Pressfit BB is no more difficult to install properly then a headset.

    The biggest issue I have with the pressfit stuff is I dont believe there is any true benefit from it, other then reduce manufacturing costs (which may or may not get passed onto the consumer).

  61. #261
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    The PF 92 BB I have on my bike has been flawless over the past three seasons.

    If it makes for a stiffer BB area along with less production costs I'm all for it.

    It has not really been much of an issue in installing and removing. IIRC installed mine with some all-thread and washers, but removing it did require a relatively cheap Park tool.

  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    removing it did require a relatively cheap Park tool.
    Can you share which tool? I've found that "cheap" and "Park" are never used in the same sentence. Regardless, pressing in and out is more difficult than a threaded BB and offers more opportunity to have a bad install than a threaded BB. I've done plenty of headsets and suspension bearings, and I'd certainly rather do a simple threaded BB than those.

  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideallday110 View Post
    Looks like the real deal! I am very interested in making your bike my next bike of purchase.
    One question. If everything goes according to plan when is the estimated date for the release of the carbon version?
    Sorry if this was mentioned already in the post.
    there is no official word of a carbon version

    it is just a 'want' from us

    let him get production AL bikes out first.

    then if it ends up he is selling enough real bikes to justify
    the extra 6 digit investment in carbon molds, probably will do it

    it costs a metric f**kton of money just to be able to hit
    the ground with AL bikes as it is

    or, someone big like Giant will license it and ...well, lets
    just get them now and see how things unfold.

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    I've installed a couple of pressfits and I'd say they are slightly more difficult than a headset since you have to source the correct locktite or you can end up with a creaky mess. Glue in BB's are not a great idea IMO, I'd much rather have threaded since you can replace them forever without changing the tolerance of the interface.

    Not a dealbreaker, just a preference.

    I'd rather he gets a few generations of AL frames and refines them before looking into carbon.

  65. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Can you share which tool? I've found that "cheap" and "Park" are never used in the same sentence. Regardless, pressing in and out is more difficult than a threaded BB and offers more opportunity to have a bad install than a threaded BB. I've done plenty of headsets and suspension bearings, and I'd certainly rather do a simple threaded BB than those.
    This is the one I have used. Was just over $55 CDN IIRC which is cheap for the correct tool for the job.

    Press Fit Bottom Bracket Bearing Tool Set | Park Tool

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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    This is the one I have used. Was just over $55 CDN IIRC which is cheap for the correct tool for the job.

    Press Fit Bottom Bracket Bearing Tool Set | Park Tool
    Yep, but was less in US dollars

  67. #267
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    Have you guys not read the review on Vital. Threaded bottom bracket. 2017 Tantrum Meltdown - Reviews, Comparisons, Specs - Mountain Bikes - Vital MTBNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-tantrum-meltdown-2.jpgNew innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-tantrum-meltdown.jpg

  68. #268
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    I have read all the reviews and articles. Have you not read this thread? Mr. Berthold himself indicated that the first batch will be press fit. I even said above that this was on page 3 of this thread:

    New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts... - Page 3- Mtbr.com


    BB. At the moment, it is press fit. Why? After doing a lot of research, I have discovered, what I think is the main problem with PF BB. Plastic bearing cups. I couldn't believe it when I saw it. Most PF BB's have a plastic cup to interface between the bearing itself and the BB shell. Don't know who came up with that BS. Right now, I'm using a Wheels MFG, aluminum cup BB. It's been great.

    Why bother with PF? In theory, it is better. Bigger, wider shell=stronger frame. bearings not hanging out past the BB=better. BTW, those bearings are pressed in also, they're just pressed into a threaded aluminum cup.

    This might change, but the first run is PF. Aside from Wheels MFG, there are some other quality options, like Praxxis that has a shell that threads together.

  69. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    This is the one I have used. Was just over $55 CDN IIRC which is cheap for the correct tool for the job.

    Press Fit Bottom Bracket Bearing Tool Set | Park Tool
    Thanks for the link. The BBT-30.3 isn't overly expensive, either, but it doesn't include the fixtures for pressing in new BB's. Of course, I don't have a Park headset press, so I suppose those fixtures wouldn't help much without it (or one very similar to it).

  70. #270
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    Yes I have read that but it was written 5 months ago and his kickstarter page lists 73mm threaded BB under specs. and offers a SRAM/Truvativ GXP 73 mm threaded bottom bracket as an upgrade. You may be right about the first batch but I didn't see it mentioned on the website.

  71. #271
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    That's a good point, the upgrades on the KS page list the 73mm threaded. Maybe Mr. Berthold will update us once he knows. Believe me, I'm rooting for your take on it!

  72. #272
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    it's gonna be threaded BB for the first batch of production frames

  73. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideallday110 View Post
    Looks like the real deal! I am very interested in making your bike my next bike of purchase.
    One question. If everything goes according to plan when is the estimated date for the release of the carbon version?
    Sorry if this was mentioned already in the post.
    Hi Everyone, getting caught up after demos.

    While it is still possible, I am not now actively planning to introduce carbon next fall. possibly spring of 2018 as mid-year.

  74. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1 View Post
    it's gonna be threaded BB for the first batch of production frames
    Well, I missed all the debate on this thread, that's what the BB will use for retention on the production frames. See, that's a pun.

    press fit offers some advantages in frame design (bigger shell makes that junction better) and theoretically better by housing the bearings rather than have them hung outside the BB. BUT, it seems the difficulty of producing a repeatable tolerance that can withstand multiple replacement cycles is the standard's undoing.

    for example, It took over a year of riding and thrashing and a few crank/bb swaps before my pre-production bikes started creaking. Now, another year and a couple more bb swaps and they are not even really press fit anymore. in my spare time, I'l get one of the kind that thread together, for now, they are noisy. Bad.

    So I changed the spec and redesigned the frame to take a threaded, 73 mm bb. It was a pain. It sucks. But I can't get behind that standard based on this data.

  75. #275
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    In the meantime, kickstarter has about 10 days to go (jan 2). A bad time of year for selling bikes, but I want to finish strong.

    So, I'm throwing down some new incentives:

    1) Money back guarantee to all kickstarter backers. Just like it sounds. You will love it or get your money back.

    2) Custom colors. $200 for single color, $300 for 2 tone

    3) Referral program, $100 off each for referrer AND referree. This includes existing backers as well as new backers.

    nOTE: not for swag........

    and look for some killer deals on high end builds next week. Seriously, like getting the frame for free....

  76. #276
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    a few questions and heartfelt congrats.

    Is it possible to buy the frame without a shock and I supply my own? Many years of riding and blowing shocks in the middle of nowhere make me wary of any but a few mainstream brands.

    Is one color choice a clear? I love the look of polished clear aluminum

    I believe the bike can take 27+ sized tires and am verifying. True?

    If we select a DVO fork do they have 110 plus size option?

    Is there a warranty with the frame? I've been a fan of innovative suspension designs from way back but have been on the short end of bad production engineering that followed good design engineering. I was an early owner of outlands VPP and went through 4 front ends before they bailed. Now I have a really cool CNC'd rear decorating the wall.

    I congratulate you tremendously on this design as it is truly innovative, creative and potentially transforming to the mountain bike industry. You have clearly moved the bar for suspension and I'm confident time will verify your design genius. Thanks for your passion and efforts.

  77. #277
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    Hi John,

    thankyouthankyouthankyou.

    One issue of fitting your own shock is actual fit. what were you thinking off?

    I am offering RAW at no charge. Polished and clearcoated looks great, but you're on your own for that. (or I could get an estimate if you really wanted it)
    Yes, the DVO fork is available in boost/110. The 29er fork goes up to 150 mm in that mode. and yes, the 29er will fit 27.5 plus tires.

    Warranty is one year, but I am considering extending it. I'm pretty confident in my production engineering at this point. It helps to have a few laps in.

    Outland. Around '95 or so, I sponsored Outland's DH rider with my 7" travel upsidedown fork. All I remember is his name was Alaska, he was from Hawaii and he slept on the trailer floor at races. The GOOD OLD DAYS.

    Thanks again for the nice words. When you put your life's work into something like this, all you want is for people to get to enjoy it. The demo rides, the great reviews....I can't lie, it feels good.

  78. #278
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    What size frame would you suggest for a 170cm rider? Is short not too small or medium not too big? Also how much are the replaceable dropouts? Sorry if these questions have been asked before

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconic83 View Post
    What size frame would you suggest for a 170cm rider? Is short not too small or medium not too big? Also how much are the replaceable dropouts? Sorry if these questions have been asked before

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
    I would suggest to measure the Reach on the bike your ride today. And also go and try a friends bike or visit you LBS to find a similar bike that got close to same Reach as the size that is furthest away from the one closest to your own bike.

    Then you can find out if the bike you got fits exactly out if sizing up or down it's making things better.

    Important to include in consideration is the length of stem and also type of bike you come from..

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  80. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    +1

    Since changing the geometry is integral to the design, it'd be interesting to see the range between climbing and descending.
    Harry, trying to get caught up on questions. I didnb't see this at first but it's excellent as it refers to the main advantage offered.

    It's difficult to put an exact number on the geometry change, since it has to do with many variables like ride weight and position, fork sag, rear sag, etc.

    But, with a static HT angle of 64-66 degrees (depending on exact model), it climbs more like a 70 degree HT angle. For example, having the front wheel come off the ground or wander on climbs is a thing of the past. Even at 64 degrees.

    I'm calling it "active geometry"

  81. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Hi Brian, a crazy idea inspired by Ibis (Ripley, bearing, Clemens, tool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNaqtqMGwRg) for the Kickstarter campaign: what about a dedicated extractor/press bearing tool ?
    I checked that out. but here's an important point. ALL of the bearings are pressed into the links and rockers. So replacement is really easy with a vise and a couple of appropriately sized sockets.

    Not too hi-tech or expensive, but it works great with no risk of frame damage

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by iconic83 View Post
    What size frame would you suggest for a 170cm rider? Is short not too small or medium not too big? Also how much are the replaceable dropouts? Sorry if these questions have been asked before

    Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
    Hi Iconic,

    Unless you REALLY like being stretched out, or have abnormally long arms, I would think you would be more comfortable on a S. For reference, the S used to be an M (with a 70 mm stem). Since the trend is longer, I reduced standover and made this an M.

    Funny thing is, this is the size of the demo bikes and I've had some 6'2" guys (184 CM) riding the bike and once they get a few minutes, forget all about it....

    I do offer a "size guarantee" to make up for the fact that I only have 3 sizes at this time. Mainly for production costs.

  83. #283
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    Maybe I missed it, but what is the headset needed for the bikes? I wasn't sure if it was a 1.5 headtube or tapered. Thanks!

  84. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    Hi Iconic,

    Unless you REALLY like being stretched out, or have abnormally long arms, I would think you would be more comfortable on a S. For reference, the S used to be an M (with a 70 mm stem). Since the trend is longer, I reduced standover and made this an M.

    Funny thing is, this is the size of the demo bikes and I've had some 6'2" guys (184 CM) riding the bike and once they get a few minutes, forget all about it....

    I do offer a "size guarantee" to make up for the fact that I only have 3 sizes at this time. Mainly for production costs.
    Do you find it necessary to have as large gaps as 35mm between sizes?
    Maybe worth checking if anyone ordering S or L would mind the gaps going down to 30 or even 25... since most brands have 20-25mm gaps..

    Im 183cm myself, and I would like to go up in reach for better high speed stability, but I'm afraid 470 will be to stretched out..

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  85. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Maybe I missed it, but what is the headset needed for the bikes? I wasn't sure if it was a 1.5 headtube or tapered. Thanks!
    yes, tapered, 1-1/8 x 1-1/5

  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Do you find it necessary to have as large gaps as 35mm between sizes?
    Maybe worth checking if anyone ordering S or L would mind the gaps going down to 30 or even 25... since most brands have 20-25mm gaps..

    Im 183cm myself, and I would like to go up in reach for better high speed stability, but I'm afraid 470 will be to stretched out..

    Skickat från min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    The biggest reason for the 35 mm gaps is due to the fact that I am only offering 3 sizes for the initial run. Purely economics and to see, really how necessary it is to have smaller gaps.

    I'm considering offering a "size guarantee', so you can exchange for another size.

  87. #287
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    demos in co spgs, sat, jan 14:

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/39...94846?hl=en-US

    I'll be in a blue minivan around 11

  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    demos in co spgs, sat, jan 14:

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/39...94846?hl=en-US

    I'll be in a blue minivan around 11
    correct location for sat

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/38...!4d-104.859059

  89. #289
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    I met up with Brian yesterday in Colorado Springs and rode both his Meltdown (27.5” 160mm) and Outburst (29” 125mm in the back 140 front) on trails I know well. They are rocky, with random chunk, sandstone ledges with some smooth bits connecting them. Rarely flat, with shortish climbs and descents.

    My background, I've been riding mtbs since 1985, I currently ride a 150mm Intense T-29 with 160 Pike up front. I climb to descend and am a reasonably aggressive rider, I like rocky, technical trails, speedy flow and moderate drops. I don't make a point of testing bikes, and won't claim to be an expert on all the current crop of bikes out there now, but I've ridden a decent amount.

    My expectations going in with the missing link suspension system were:

    It was going to have a dramatically different feel.

    There was going to be a notchy point or platform where it transitioned from feeling suspended to feeling locked out.

    The change in geometry was going to be overtly obvious.

    I'm not going to focus on the parts hanging off the frame much except to say the forks were fine, there were great tires on the bikes and all the components were decent. While those things can have a dramatic effect on how a bike feels, they are often personal choices and usually only detract if they are lacking. Nothing jumped out as spectacular, all good stuff that gets the job done. The frame construction is quality. Nice welds and CNC/forged bits, tire clearance is good as well. These were preproduction frames and there were a few minor things that were indicative of that, nothing that gives me any concern.

    Since both bikes share the same suspension system, they both have the same traits in common, with the difference in travel mainly affecting how quickly the shock ramps up (obviously) which correlates to how quickly the suspension stiffens and how stiff it feels on the same grades when climbing, as well as how much the geometry alters.

    Initially, the bike felt like other high quality bike I've ridden, not the “what the heck is this?!” expectation I had. It pedals well, stiffens up while climbing and gets plush when descending. What's the big deal right? The system feels seamless, it was only with time that I began to notice what makes it different. When you want it stiff, like under power, it gets stiff, stiffer than I'm used to with VPP. On a moderate climb, there's maybe half the movement I normally see, yet when you hit a sharp edged bump, it's instantly twice as soft. There's no abrupt transition, it's a linear feeling, apply more power to the pedals and it gets stiffer, less and it's not. Run into something and you've got plushness. It's simple.

    Now the changing geometry. Again, seamless and subtle. I never felt like the bike was morphing from DH mode to climbing mode, but it was. The change is there and is very real, it's only when you begin to discover that you are no longer adjusting your body position to make your bike work well at changing pitches that you realize that Brian's bike is doing it for you. You know that feeling climbing when your long travel bike squats down on it's rear end, the fork extends, gets light and you have to scoot up on to the nose of your saddle to keep traction? That's gone, you're pedaling along on the flats sitting square in the saddle, you start climbing and nothing changes, the back doesn't squat, the front doesn't get light and you're still sitting in your saddle spinning circles. It climbs easier and better than a bike with comparable travel IME.

    After I got home, I took a quick spin around while I still had the feeling of his bike fresh in my brain. It made it obvious that we are so used to the compromises we make on our existing bikes, that they are invisible. How often have you read in a review something like “Well, it's not a horrible climber for a bike with so much travel”? How much do you have to move around on your bike to make up for it either being too slack or too steep at the wrong times?

    With these bikes, those compromises are either gone completely, or much, much reduced. I'd need more than a couple of hours on them to be sure which is the case. They climb well, the 160mm climbs way better than it should, or I should say, than what we're used to. At no point did I feel like I was grinding up a climb on a low, slack, descending machine, it felt rather sprightly tbh. I didn't have to make a dramatic moves to keep the front end from wandering or becoming light. On the opposite end of the spectrum, you could set up a lower travel XC race bike that was a stiff climber with steeper geometry that didn't become a handful on the downhills. A slack, plush XC bike that was steep and stiff when you want it? It's possible. A long travel descender that climbs like a bike with half it's travel? It's possible. It could even be the same bike with different set ups. Crazy.

    There was one noticable moment when on a very moderate climb, only 3-4% probably, I rode up to a 8” cast concrete waterbar, just like a curb, but with a sharp edge on the 125mm 29er, which was set up stiffer than I am used to with more pressure in the tires. I lifted the front wheel over and rolled through and it honestly almost disappeared. About half the impact I'm used to and it felt more like I was on a DH bike. It was illuminating.

    In summary, the bikes climb and descend as well or better than any others I've ridden and you're not buying a bike that is biased towards one or the other. It does both equally well which is unique, this is an evolution in mtb suspension and it's for real. It doesn't jump out, shake you by the collar and scream “This is new!”, it's all happening quietly, behind the scenes. Add in that by simply changing dropouts and having a second chain, you could easily switch back and forth between 27.5 and 29, with plus variations thrown in and be future proofed for a while. For the money, it's a bargain.

  90. #290
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    Harryman, thanks for your thoughts. I ride two Intenses mainly, a 2010 Tracer VP and a 2012 Spider 26er, so your thoughts were quite interesting to me. I'm getting very excited for this year's riding season with the Outburst!

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    I previously had an Uzzi and then a 5.5, so I know where you're coming from. The feel is similar, but better, you'll really like it.

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    Missing Link works👍

    I was very fortunate and got to demo the 29er for 2 rides this weekend. The "missing link" works. The pedaling platform is stiff and efficient like a hardtail but that's the ONLY thing that makes it similar to a hardtail. It does not FEEL like a hardtail because the rear is plush even on the climbs. For example, I was climbing a very steep section and I got off my line and hit a tall rock ledge. My bike (a pivot Mach 6) would have got hung up on that ledge for sure. i was even waiting for the bike to get hung up but I kept pedaling and the rear suspension absorbed the rock ledge and I went up and over. That never would have happened on a regular bike and it even kinda surprised me. While that happened my seat stayed right under me and I stayed in a nice upright climbing position. My buddy also cleared a very technical, steep switchback section that he has never cleared. The action of the suspension is seamless too. It never stiffens up or gets harsh but you can tell it's working. Then you go downhill and the bike settles nicely into its suspension and feels very plush for only 125mm of travel. I was very impressed with the DVO fork too. I run a pike now but the DVO felt just as good. The ride we did today was the Dakota ridge trail in golden, co which is a very technical trail and the bike was perfect for that type of trail. Another benefit of this bike is you don't get any pedal strikes. About me, I've been riding for 20+ years and I'm definitely a bike geek. I'm a very good technical climber but I am a little slow. However I make up for my slow climbing by going very fast on the downhills. I prefer very technical trails and I hit the bike park 6-10 times a year. I've been demoing the pivot switchblade, YT jeffsey, Santa Cruz Hightower, specialized enduro 29er and stumpy 29. I'm very picky with my bikes and This bike was very impressive. if I can get enough money together I will probably buy the outburst. I would recommend going with the DVO suspension. Also Brian is a good guy and will stand behind his bikes. If you are wondering I am not getting anything for writing this review. No free product or extra discounts or anything. I'm writing it because the bike is legit and it would be cool to see this suspension design get more popular. Plus brian has been great and it would be cool to see him do well too. Happy trails.

  93. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I was very fortunate and got to demo the 29er for 2 rides this weekend. The "missing link" works. The pedaling platform is stiff and efficient like a hardtail but that's the ONLY thing that makes it similar to a hardtail. It does not FEEL like a hardtail because the rear is plush even on the climbs. For example, I was climbing a very steep section and I got off my line and hit a tall rock ledge. My bike (a pivot Mach 6) would have got hung up on that ledge for sure. i was even waiting for the bike to get hung up but I kept pedaling and the rear suspension absorbed the rock ledge and I went up and over. That never would have happened on a regular bike and it even kinda surprised me. While that happened my seat stayed right under me and I stayed in a nice upright climbing position. My buddy also cleared a very technical, steep switchback section that he has never cleared. The action of the suspension is seamless too. It never stiffens up or gets harsh but you can tell it's working. Then you go downhill and the bike settles nicely into its suspension and feels very plush for only 125mm of travel. I was very impressed with the DVO fork too. I run a pike now but the DVO felt just as good. The ride we did today was the Dakota ridge trail in golden, co which is a very technical trail and the bike was perfect for that type of trail. Another benefit of this bike is you don't get any pedal strikes. About me, I've been riding for 20+ years and I'm definitely a bike geek. I'm a very good technical climber but I am a little slow. However I make up for my slow climbing by going very fast on the downhills. I prefer very technical trails and I hit the bike park 6-10 times a year. I've been demoing the pivot switchblade, YT jeffsey, Santa Cruz Hightower, specialized enduro 29er and stumpy 29. I'm very picky with my bikes and This bike was very impressive. if I can get enough money together I will probably buy the outburst. I would recommend going with the DVO suspension. Also Brian is a good guy and will stand behind his bikes. If you are wondering I am not getting anything for writing this review. No free product or extra discounts or anything. I'm writing it because the bike is legit and it would be cool to see this suspension design get more popular. Plus brian has been great and it would be cool to see him do well too. Happy trails.
    You do realize, when you use your email as your username anywhere on the internet, you can expect 11.4 kilotons of spam?

  94. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Procter View Post
    You do realize, when you use your email as your username anywhere on the internet, you can expect 11.4 kilotons of spam?
    maybe the email belongs to ex

  95. #295
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    Brian.
    Since you have mentioned even longer travel then 160mm should be equaly pedal efficient but even more efficient for steep climb and decending due to greater geometry adaption range.
    So what do you think the limit might be? And do you see any possible drawback except increased weight?

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk

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    Thank you

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    Sounds like a killer suspension design. I feel it's a shame that one of the big boys with big resources didn't pay the licensing costs for this rear suspension design. Several of them really need the help quite frankly.

    The great thing about globalization and Asian manufacturing is that Tantrum can soon have the ability to manufacturer his own CF frames utilizing these outfits.

    I really wish him luck and hope's he makes enough that he can spend a few hours every day riding his bikes!

  98. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Sounds like a killer suspension design. I feel it's a shame that one of the big boys with big resources didn't pay the licensing costs for this rear suspension design. Several of them really need the help quite frankly.

    The great thing about globalization and Asian manufacturing is that Tantrum can soon have the ability to manufacturer his own CF frames utilizing these outfits.

    I really wish him luck and hope's he makes enough that he can spend a few hours every day riding his bikes!
    CF isn't happening anytime soon- molds alone are a 60k+ investment alone per frame size. Where he does have an advantage- is each frame size can be made into any model with links and drop outs.
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    Hi Everyone,

    First, thanks to the guys meeting me for demos and showing me the awesome trails....that the bike is perfect for. And for the great reviews. I have to admit, after working so hard on something, the reviews never get old.

  100. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Brian.
    Since you have mentioned even longer travel then 160mm should be equaly pedal efficient but even more efficient for steep climb and decending due to greater geometry adaption range.
    So what do you think the limit might be? And do you see any possible drawback except increased weight?

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    I think the limit of "active geometry", might be the ability to control it kinematically.

    It isn't easy to get everything happening in the right direction at the right time. Especially with multiple concentric arcs.

    But I've worked out the 180 mm travel and it looks pretty good.

  101. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suns_PSD View Post
    Sounds like a killer suspension design. I feel it's a shame that one of the big boys with big resources didn't pay the licensing costs for this rear suspension design. Several of them really need the help quite frankly.

    The great thing about globalization and Asian manufacturing is that Tantrum can soon have the ability to manufacturer his own CF frames utilizing these outfits.

    I really wish him luck and hope's he makes enough that he can spend a few hours every day riding his bikes!
    Thanks Sun,

    Don't worry about me getting resources. It will happen. There are a lot of people waiting to see what happens with this. They are only gonna move if they have to.

    They will have to.

    Working on CF for the future, but it's not my priority. And for sure, I will keep up with aluminum. Why? So more people can afford to ride my bike. And aluminum makes a pretty nice bike.

    As for your last point, here's the beauty...I am now a Professional Mountain Biker.

    I have been on so many awesome rides on my "demo tour". And I lot more winter riding, too. If I couldn't ride...........

  102. #302
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    Has anyone been able to ride the 29/27.5 wheeled combo dubbed the "Outdown"? It reminds me of the Foes Mixer but with a way better suspension design. Looks like it could be fun with a front roll over of a 29er but with the turning and playfulness of a 27.5.

  103. #303
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    Hey Brian, I didn't ask when I saw you, but what's the plan for dropout width going forward? Boost?

  104. #304
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    When will the people who've ordered start getting bikes delivered?

  105. #305
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    Brian about 2 weeks ago I sent you a PM and an email to your webpage. If you get a chance could you check and give me a reply ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Hey Brian, I didn't ask when I saw you, but what's the plan for dropout width going forward? Boost?
    From previous posts it looks like standard is boost spacing but a 12x142 is an option

  107. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    From previous posts it looks like standard is boost spacing but a 12x142 is an option
    Yes, that's what Brian told me offline. The KS survey asked what kind of axle you wanted, and 12x148 was listed as "standard" unless you picked something else.

  108. #308
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    Thanks

  109. #309
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    I also requested 12x142 29er and 12x142 27.5 dropouts with mine, so hopefully I'll have all kinds of options.

  110. #310
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    Hey, I just looked at my survey again and this was the wording:

    What dropouts do you want for the rear wheel? NOTE, Unless the results of this survey indicate otherwise, 29ers come with 148 standard, while 27.5 come with 142

  111. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    Has anyone been able to ride the 29/27.5 wheeled combo dubbed the "Outdown"? It reminds me of the Foes Mixer but with a way better suspension design. Looks like it could be fun with a front roll over of a 29er but with the turning and playfulness of a 27.5.
    I'm the only one that rode that bike. I brought it to Sea Otter last year, but raced the Meltdown instead, mostly because I had it in Race mode with 64 degree HT and I knew it better. Probably would've done exactly the same on the Downburst.

    My feeling was it had better handling than the Outburst 29er, but retained the rollover. Oh, wait, you already said that. Also, with 160 mm rear travel, it could go thru the rock garden better, even with the 27.5.

    The rollover makes much more difference in the front, while the smaller rear just means it "completes" corners easier, better. It's probably just as nimble as the Meltdown.

    But I didn't get enough time on it to say whether I liked it more or not. Maybe with a 150-160 fork (I had a 140 on it).

  112. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Hey, I just looked at my survey again and this was the wording:

    What dropouts do you want for the rear wheel? NOTE, Unless the results of this survey indicate otherwise, 29ers come with 148 standard, while 27.5 come with 142
    This is correct. For initial production, the standard DO will be 142 fr 27.5 and 148 for 29. But 27.5 x 148 will be available and, 29 x 142. I know there are a lot of $3000 142 wheelsets out there.

  113. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by d365 View Post
    When will the people who've ordered start getting bikes delivered?
    We are still on "schedule" for late April/May for the first frames.

    Actually, I will have the first frames in each size in Mar, but those will not go to customers. They will be to check everything and destructive testing.

    Complete bikes are on a May/June schedule, just because.....

    I will be able to firm this up soon, once we actually start welding. Lots of part to make first.

  114. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    and destructive testing.
    Now that's something I'd like a peek at. And numbers on. And a good idea what they mean in terms of real world riding. I've seen the Pink Bike/Santa Cruz carbon vs aluminum thing, and figure that's the sort of testing we're talking about, but I'd love to see numbers, and understand how far that goes toward ...well, not breaking the frame based on how I ride. Unlike my current bike.

  115. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Now that's something I'd like a peek at. And numbers on. And a good idea what they mean in terms of real world riding. I've seen the Pink Bike/Santa Cruz carbon vs aluminum thing, and figure that's the sort of testing we're talking about, but I'd love to see numbers, and understand how far that goes toward ...well, not breaking the frame based on how I ride. Unlike my current bike.
    Their testing was more for show IMO. Even my LBS said they see more chainstay damage than anything else. Someone slips their rear off a rock and the chainstay clips the rock and cracks it. Other is when people bottom out the suspension on big hits which again those test don't really replicate. I also wonder how the lower shock mount will hold up as most seem to use a through bolt. If you repeatedly bottom out will it place great stress on the threads and strip them out?

  116. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by KidConejo View Post
    I also wonder how the lower shock mount will hold up as most seem to use a through bolt. If you repeatedly bottom out will it place great stress on the threads and strip them out?
    Not sure I understand your concern. What shock isn't mounted with a bolt? Also, so many suspensions use through bolts at linkages.
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  117. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Now that's something I'd like a peek at. And numbers on. And a good idea what they mean in terms of real world riding. I've seen the Pink Bike/Santa Cruz carbon vs aluminum thing, and figure that's the sort of testing we're talking about, but I'd love to see numbers, and understand how far that goes toward ...well, not breaking the frame based on how I ride. Unlike my current bike.
    I'll see if I can sneak a vid of the cycles to failure test. That's the one that'll scare the shit out of you. And there's a reason it's done inside a blast cage.

    basically, attach rams to the HT, dropouts, bb and sT and distort the hell out of it for a min of 100k cycles. It's the fatigue life we are typically just as, if not more worried about. Rarely will a halfway decent designed part fail in one hit. even if the final blow broke it, chances are, it had some fatigue already.

    while the PB demo was cool, it didn't have too much relevance to real world riding. Drop to flat mighta been better. I suspect they may have chosen a test that made CF look it's best.

    My biggest concern about CF is delamination. The tendency over time for the layers of carbon to separate from one another. In F1/Indycars, you can see the effects of a season of racing by doing a torsion test on the chassis before and after. And then you make it a show car, because it stops responding as well to chassis changes and handling becomes inconsistent and yes, it'll get dangerous in a crash.

    Don't take this as a slam on carbon, aluminum certainly has a fatigue life as well, although, as you saw in the PB video, being a more ductile material, the failures can be less violent.

  118. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I'll see if I can sneak a vid of the cycles to failure test. That's the one that'll scare the shit out of you. And there's a reason it's done inside a blast cage.

    basically, attach rams to the HT, dropouts, bb and sT and distort the hell out of it for a min of 100k cycles. It's the fatigue life we are typically just as, if not more worried about. Rarely will a halfway decent designed part fail in one hit. even if the final blow broke it, chances are, it had some fatigue already.
    Right. I've broken multiple frames, some due to what we'll call "normal fatigue" and some due to what we'll call "repetitive abnormal fatigue inducing events" (like hucking the crap out of light weight XC stuff that isn't designed to be hucked). I think the cycles to failure test would be fascinating.

  119. #319
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    Well...I'm in !

    Planning to get the "Shining", 160mm 29'er.
    Now that they've updated the Specialized E29, this is the only long travel 29'er that can still take an FD.
    Oh, and it also has an innovative holy grail suspension linkage design ? I guess that's intriguing too. I have to admit though, leaving a carbon frame behind will make me sad. Even if my E29 is really only half carbon.

  120. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    Right. I've broken multiple frames, some due to what we'll call "normal fatigue" and some due to what we'll call "repetitive abnormal fatigue inducing events" (like hucking the crap out of light weight XC stuff that isn't designed to be hucked). I think the cycles to failure test would be fascinating.
    I would like to think my frames would not fail under normal fatigue.......or even abnormal fatigue inducing events. but everything has it's limit.

    Having met and ridden with you, I'm thinking some of that damage occurred before you realized you would put DH stresses on an XC bike in large part, due to largeness.

    But, my opinion is that any frame in the "trailbike" or "enduro"
    category should be able to take it, even from heavier riders. That's why I spec'd a DH level downtube thickness on this bike.

    Then, your parts build will determine the rest of it. I have one customer at 120 pounds that is coming up with a 25 pound build and it will last forever.

  121. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Well...I'm in !

    Planning to get the "Shining", 160mm 29'er.
    Now that they've updated the Specialized E29, this is the only long travel 29'er that can still take an FD.
    Oh, and it also has an innovative holy grail suspension linkage design ? I guess that's intriguing too. I have to admit though, leaving a carbon frame behind will make me sad. Even if my E29 is really only half carbon.
    hey Preston, welcome and thank you.

    If it helps on the carbon issue, almost everyone that demos the bike mentions how light it feels, especially on the climbs, even at 30 pounds for the not particularly light build on the demos. And this is coming form people that, for the most part, are coming off carbon bikes and wheels, i.e., 26-7 pound builds.

  122. #322
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    everyone,

    A question was asked as a PM that I thought would be better answered here, about rear axle.

    Here is the answer: each dropout width will require a dedicated axle, specific to that width, 142 for 142, 148 for 148

  123. #323
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    I posted this question in different thread as well:

    Brian or any others who have demoed a Meltdown, a couple of questions:

    With the changed Geo (i.e.) shorter chainstays, on the production frames how is the playfulness of the bike? I'm not a hucker, anything >5' drop and I'll probably bail (can't work with a broken arm) but I like to hit any natural transitions, doubles, jumps, and what not. I've ridden a 2015 SC Nomad and it bombed the downhills but it didn't have the playfullness I was looking for, and it didn't climb like I want.

    Also with the DVO and X-fusion shock being specifically dampnened for this frame set-up will most of the companies and shops that rebuild suspesnion be able to work on the shock without screwing up all the work you've done to make this bike what it is?

    Thanks

  124. #324
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    I'm already getting nervous not hearing from Brian for a week !

    Joking more or less. However I think it might be a good idea if the early funders have a way to stay in touch outside of a public forum. If anyone has a good idea (does gofundme have a system maybe ?) put it out there.

    Otherwise if you want to pm me I'd be willing to maintain a list of email addresses for the time being.

    Brian I think it would be great if you emailed us or posted every 2 weeks or so or updated your website regularly even if its just "waiting for molds" or "frames being welded" even better with some progress photos. May seems so far away right now.

  125. #325
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    .... and with the Atlantic in between even more far.

  126. #326
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    Nothing to worry about.
    I have sendt several mails to Brian with many questions, inputs and ideas even since before Kickstarter.
    He have always responded what I have expected a response on. And many times much longer and deeper going then I've hoped fore. Sometimes it have taken many weeks when he's been traveling or overloaded and had to focus on the process.
    I think many of us are very spoiled to expect everyone to be online 24/7 to respond and share information straight away.
    I'm sure Brian are doing his best to adapt to today's I formation pace. But at the moment I prefer he focus 100% on constructing the best possible bikes he can. It's the outcome that counts after all..

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  127. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    I'm already getting nervous not hearing from Brian for a week !

    Joking more or less. However I think it might be a good idea if the early funders have a way to stay in touch outside of a public forum. If anyone has a good idea (does gofundme have a system maybe ?) put it out there.

    Otherwise if you want to pm me I'd be willing to maintain a list of email addresses for the time being.

    Brian I think it would be great if you emailed us or posted every 2 weeks or so or updated your website regularly even if its just "waiting for molds" or "frames being welded" even better with some progress photos. May seems so far away right now.
    Pretty sure I saw him running into a Las Vegas casino carrying bags of cash.

  128. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Pretty sure I saw him running into a Las Vegas casino carrying bags of cash.
    Are you really sure he was running? He told me he was riding...

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  129. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    I posted this question in different thread as well:

    Brian or any others who have demoed a Meltdown, a couple of questions:

    With the changed Geo (i.e.) shorter chainstays, on the production frames how is the playfulness of the bike? I'm not a hucker, anything >5' drop and I'll probably bail (can't work with a broken arm) but I like to hit any natural transitions, doubles, jumps, and what not. I've ridden a 2015 SC Nomad and it bombed the downhills but it didn't have the playfullness I was looking for, and it didn't climb like I want.

    Also with the DVO and X-fusion shock being specifically dampnened for this frame set-up will most of the companies and shops that rebuild suspesnion be able to work on the shock without screwing up all the work you've done to make this bike what it is?

    Thanks
    Hi Guys, I'm here. Sometimes it's hard to keep up with all the forums, etc. And sometimes I think I should back off a little........

    As for "playfulness", I would anticipate easier change of direction and ability to manual (shorter CS), with more stability (slacker rake). These changes have actually been tested "somewhat", although not in this exact configuration, so I'm pretty confident in the outcome.

    As for the shock question, in either case did we fundamentally change the internals of the shock, basically just the compression valving, essentially shims. Nothing special on the shims either, just standard shims in a different configuration.

    On another note, I've been testing a "standard" shock from another well known company and it works pretty good as delivered (with std "soft" cd package), even if it still has the redundant lockout switch.

  130. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    I'm already getting nervous not hearing from Brian for a week !

    Joking more or less. However I think it might be a good idea if the early funders have a way to stay in touch outside of a public forum. If anyone has a good idea (does gofundme have a system maybe ?) put it out there.

    Otherwise if you want to pm me I'd be willing to maintain a list of email addresses for the time being.

    Brian I think it would be great if you emailed us or posted every 2 weeks or so or updated your website regularly even if its just "waiting for molds" or "frames being welded" even better with some progress photos. May seems so far away right now.
    Preston and all backers, the best way is my tantrum email. but when I'm traveling, I can fall behind a few days. This goes double for forums. Pm's in particular, can get lost in the shuffle.

    I will post some updates on the website, facebook and the KS site. I'm organizing some help to keep up with that stuff. Right now, everyone is getting back to work after chinese new year celebrations, which basically shut things down for a week or so. But parts are being made, tubes being mitered. Welding won't happen any time soon, but I will have a more detailed schedule once the return from CNY gets settled in the next few days.

    The first frames will be samples in all sizes and destructive test samples. I'll be really excited to see those.

  131. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Pretty sure I saw him running into a Las Vegas casino carrying bags of cash.
    pshhhh, I figured I need at least a million to retire to an island with a girl that didn't speak english.......

    Did I get it!!!? No. Now I have to make bikes. Not a bad consolation prize.

  132. #332
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    Brian or anyone else who might already have the answer: what is the Head Tube length? I am looking at getting a used fork for my shinning frame and want to make sure I get one that is long enough. Thanks in advance.

  133. #333
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    Most probably it has been said already, but now I can´t find it: is the shox in a new metric size or in a old size?

  134. #334
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    This is from a message Brian sent me through Kickstarter:

    shock length is 200 x 57 on the Meltdown and 190 x 50 on the Outburst.

  135. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    This is from a message Brian sent me through Kickstarter:
    Just to add to it- here are all the combinations he's working on as far as I know

    "....shock size 200 x 57 for 160 mm, 184.15 (7.25) x 44.45 (1.75) for 125 mm. For the proto 140, I am using a 190 x 50.

    The 180 will use a 215 x 63.5, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves."

    At the time the 140mm was a prototype- but it now a travel that's offered.

    Obviously depends on the linkage as well - the 140mm bike will use the 125mm linkage.
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  136. #336
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    Thanks for that update. So my 125mm 29er will be a 7.25x1.75 then.

  137. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Brian or anyone else who might already have the answer: what is the Head Tube length? I am looking at getting a used fork for my shinning frame and want to make sure I get one that is long enough. Thanks in advance.
    hi keo,

    HT size is 120 for S and M, 130 for L.

  138. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    for my shinning frame
    So tempting to name it that in honor of groundskeeper willie

  139. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Most probably it has been said already, but now I can´t find it: is the shox in a new metric size or in a old size?
    As stated, these bikes use (still) "standard" (whatever in the history of the word that means).

    As metric shocks become more common and available ad more importantly, the trunion shocks, they will be incorporated. At he moment, metric shocks don't package as well as existing (length to stroke), but the trunion shock will be better for my purposes. It will eventually eliminate the need for the hole in the DT, even though the shock position/angle will remain the same (or similar).

  140. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Thanks for that update. So my 125mm 29er will be a 7.25x1.75 then.
    yes

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    So with this design the key is for the missing link or the two linkages connecting to the top of the shock to stay near vertical? It seems like setting sag thus becomes critical and we can only run a fixed % in order to main the alignment of the links?

    In fact can we even have any real amount of sag? What happens when the shock extends? I suck at geometry so what happens if you're riding along and hit a dip. Does that cause the linkage to bend and compress the shock like it would if it hit a bump? It can't possibly extend further.

  142. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    So with this design the key is for the missing link or the two linkages connecting to the top of the shock to stay near vertical? It seems like setting sag thus becomes critical and we can only run a fixed % in order to main the alignment of the links?

    In fact can we even have any real amount of sag? What happens when the shock extends? I suck at geometry so what happens if you're riding along and hit a dip. Does that cause the linkage to bend and compress the shock like it would if it hit a bump? It can't possibly extend further.
    Nope. You've missed it. I think these bikes actually set up with 30 or 35% sag (it's been discussed in this thread somewhere) and are very plush and have quit a lot of "negative travel" (ie room for the shock to extend). The key with the links getting close to vertical is when enough pedaling force is applied to pull the linkage into that position (climbing), then you have a very solid pedaling platform, but the way the linkages are set up if you hit something, it's still very soft and gives you loads of traction, then ramps back up into that solid pedaling platform almost seamlessly.

    You have two things going on: You don't entirely understand what's going on here (how the design is supposed to work - though you do kind of have part of it down) and you sound very skeptical. As someone who has ridden this design, I can tell you it's absolutely everything it claims to be, which in my experience is pretty unusual for the bike industry. Or any other industry, for that matter. My advice to you: see if you can make it to a demo and get a leg over one of these bikes. Brian has built a system that pretty much has to be ridden to be believed.

  143. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfat View Post
    So with this design the key is for the missing link or the two linkages connecting to the top of the shock to stay near vertical? It seems like setting sag thus becomes critical and we can only run a fixed % in order to main the alignment of the links?

    In fact can we even have any real amount of sag? What happens when the shock extends? I suck at geometry so what happens if you're riding along and hit a dip. Does that cause the linkage to bend and compress the shock like it would if it hit a bump? It can't possibly extend further.
    Cotharyus is correct. The bikes normally rides at whatever static sag you set, 30-35% being nice. Only when climbing does the action of the force on the chainstay push forward on the lower end of the Missing Link hard enough to extend the shock. This force, combined with the unfavorable transmission angle of the links, conspire to keep the shock extended, giving the unlimited platform and ALSO, steeper geometry, which aids tremendously.

    When the wheel encounters a bump, that force pushing the chainstay forward is momentarily counteracted by the bump force pushing the wheel and chainstay rearward. now, since the shock is actually at the beginning of it's stroke, the spring force is low and with the assist of the Missing Link momentarily rotating to compress the shock, the bump is absorbed easily.

    Rinse and repeat as needed.

    As for the extension in a dip, if you are on levelish ground, it will have normalish droop available. If you are climbing, the wheel and bike will follow the ground. This is no different than another bike climbing with 35% sag. if you encounter a dip, the weight transfer to close to 100% to the rear, pretty much means the rear is going to follow that dip, not extend.

    I think this answers your question.

  144. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    now, since the shock is actually at the beginning of it's stroke, the spring force is low and with the assist of the Missing Link momentarily rotating to compress the shock, the bump is absorbed easily.
    Light-bulb moment here. I had never thought about how the spring force would be lower with the shock in extension. Interesting...really looking forward to building and riding mine.

  145. #345
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    Brian and others,

    Sorry for the noob questions but does my Shinning frame with 148 mm rear hub spacing and 27+ setup require a boost specific crankset/chainring?

    Thanks in advance

  146. #346
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    Additional noobish question..

    How wide 27 tyres will the different 29" forks take?

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  147. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    while the PB demo was cool, it didn't have too much relevance to real world riding. Drop to flat mighta been better. I suspect they may have chosen a test that made CF look it's best.
    That was a pure marketing video and had nothing to do with materials testing in realistic riding failure modes.
    Safe riding,

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  148. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Brian and others,

    Sorry for the noob questions but does my Shinning frame with 148 mm rear hub spacing and 27+ setup require a boost specific crankset/chainring?

    Thanks in advance
    Never mind, I figured out the answer. Yes, due to the different chainline required for the boost spacing.

  149. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Never mind, I figured out the answer. Yes, due to the different chainline required for the boost spacing.
    Not necessarily. My M3 is boost and the chainline is much better with normal XTR cranks.

    There have been a few people I've seen reporting they get better chainline on boost bikes with non bo0st cranks.
    Ripley LS v3
    OG Ripley v2 handed down to son

  150. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Not necessarily. My M3 is boost and the chainline is much better with normal XTR cranks.

    There have been a few people I've seen reporting they get better chainline on boost bikes with non bo0st cranks.
    Okay, thanks for the info. I just googled that and from what I read it makes sense, keep a better chainline for the high torque (climbing) gears with a non boost crankset.

    Brian, care to make a recommendation?

  151. #351
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    Hi Brian,
    any update to report?

  152. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTB View Post
    Light-bulb moment here. I had never thought about how the spring force would be lower with the shock in extension. Interesting...really looking forward to building and riding mine.
    This is a key point to how the rear is so plush even though you are climbing in a fully extended "locked out" mode. The combo of the Missing Link acting in the opposite direction against low spring force equals instant bump absorption.

  153. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by keo View Post
    Brian and others,

    Sorry for the noob questions but does my Shinning frame with 148 mm rear hub spacing and 27+ setup require a boost specific crankset/chainring?

    Thanks in advance
    My latest info is that a standard crank and Q-factor is used with a chainring offeset 3 mm outboard. And I have allowed heel and crank clearance for that.

  154. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Additional noobish question..

    How wide 27 tyres will the different 29" forks take?

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    That's a trick question, maybe for the fork guys, but a boost fork can go wider.

  155. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Hi Brian,
    any update to report?
    I am on my way to Socal for demos Mar 18-19, on my way to Taiwan. while in Taiwan, I will visit the factory and come back with a much firmer picture of everything.

    In the meanttime, demos will continue in Socal on Mar 25-26 and denver area April 1-2. Hit me up or go to facebook to register for events or recommend locations.

    b

  156. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    That's a trick question, maybe for the fork guys, but a boost fork can go wider.
    I've sent the same question to both Xfusion and DVO.
    I just noticed a 27+/29" version of the Diamond is available, boost standard and up to 160mm travel.
    http://www.dvosuspension.com/products/diamond-110boost/

    I also noticed Xfusion suddenly have the Revel back on the web, even they in December answered me it wont go in production..
    http://www.xfusionshox.com/products/...vel-series/hlr

    Not Boost standard but seems to have plenty room for 2,8 tyres. Maybe even 3,0.
    (Edit: comparing on pictures clearly shows the Revel got more tyre width clearance then the Mc Queen 27+ fork. And I'm pretty certain I won't miss Boost width hub up front)
    Only catch I can see is that all Xfusion 29" or 27+ forks are limited to 140mm when DVO offers 160..

    Brian could you look up for us if a Revel upgrade could be affordable within reasonable limits. And when they will match DVO, RockShox, Öhlin, MRP.. (Fox?) by offering Boost version and/or 160mm travel.

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    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 03-11-2017 at 11:21 AM. Reason: K

  157. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I've sent the same question to both Xfusion and DVO.
    I just noticed a 27+/29" version of the Diamond is available, boost standard and up to 160mm travel.
    DIAMOND 110|BOOST | DVO Suspension

    I also noticed Xfusion suddenly have the Revel back on the web, even they in December answered me it wont go in production..
    X Fusion Shox | Revel HLR inverted fork.

    Not Boost standard but seems to have plenty room for 2,8 tyres. Maybe even 3,0.
    (Edit: comparing on pictures clearly shows the Revel got more tyre width clearance then the Mc Queen 27+ fork. And I'm pretty certain I won't miss Boost width hub up front)
    Only catch I can see is that all Xfusion 29" or 27+ forks are limited to 140mm when DVO offers 160..

    Brian could you look up for us if a Revel upgrade could be affordable within reasonable limits. And when they will match DVO, RockShox, Öhlin, MRP.. (Fox?) by offering Boost version and/or 160mm travel.

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    On the DVO front, I beleive the boost 29er goes up to 150mm and the boost 27.5 goes up to 170mm, which will be a great fork. I am liking the Diamond non boost forks I'm testing on both the 27.5 and 29 version.

    I am heading to taiwan after the next demos anf will have a lot more suspension answers when I return.

  158. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    On the DVO front, I beleive the boost 29er goes up to 150mm and the boost 27.5 goes up to 170mm, which will be a great fork. I am liking the Diamond non boost forks I'm testing on both the 27.5 and 29 version.

    I am heading to taiwan after the next demos anf will have a lot more suspension answers when I return.
    Hi Brian,
    any news/pics form Taiwan?

  159. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavolpeeluva View Post
    Hi Brian,
    any news/pics form Taiwan?
    I just posted an update on Kickstarter, but here's the goodies,

    First frames expected in Mid to end of May is what the owner of the factory told me during my visit, over noodle soup at lunch. The soup was great, so I will take him at his word on delivery.....for now. Word on the street is that he's good for it. My Taiwanese trading agent has had many good projects with him as well.

    Frames will be delivered in order of ordering, with raw frames getting a slight nod, since all frames are coming raw.

    My visit to the factory was great. I liked my engineering counterpart as well as the owner, and they have a good quality track record. Sometimes, translating the engineering is the biggest difficulty (most of the time), so having an instant understanding with my counterpart is a great way to start. How does this matter the most? If he has a question, he asks and never makes a change that I don't OK. While that sounds simple, it is not always common.

    I'll have some teaser pics and videos up soon. NOT of your bikes, too soon, but of the factory and process and stuff.

    All of the "forgings" for the first batch are CNC machined, partly for initial accuracy, but mostly for expense of forging in small batches. The factory promised pics as parts start to arrive from suppliers.

    thanks again, more later. We are rollin.

    cheers,

    Brian

  160. #360
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    How exciting !
    Thanks for the update, keep 'em coming when you have news !

  161. #361
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    Great update Brian! :-) Good to hear it's going smooth. It sounds like you are enjoying the process..

    (ps. please remember to check Revel fork upgrade before you head home! ;-) )


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    Last edited by Gunnar Westholm; 04-08-2017 at 06:34 AM.

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    Any word on the long travel 29er?
    It takes half a joule more to accelerate Brass Nipples over Alloy Nipples on a 29er to 30kph. :thumbsup:

  163. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by softbatch View Post
    Any word on the long travel 29er?
    So, how long's a long travel 29er?

    Though not long, I'd say 140mm is the sweet spot if you want to ride everything.

  164. #364
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    Well I'd like to think its on the way because I have one on order.

    160mm f/r "The Shining"

    I believe Brian is able to accomplish this modular-ly ie he's not producing two completely unique frame sections in order to create it.

  165. #365
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    Interesting to see other patents appearing outside the gigantic box of todays mainstream..
    https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/04/12...-nothing-else/
    A good indication that evolution around mtb suspension have not peaked just yet.

    But I'm amazed how it's possible to writ such a long article. Mention Tantrum might be the closest thing in comparison (except the "massive amounts" of 20mm more rear travel..)
    But fail to even mention the radical difference when it comes to Missing Links unique adaptable geometry that makes it climbs so well compared to other pedal efficient patents..



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  166. #366
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    I'm happy to see at least a tiny movement against climb switches, etc. I live where there aren't any climbs long enough to need a climb switch, but bikes that rely on them become way too bobby on all our pedaling sections. I read every bike test and watch out for the reviewer saying, "You'll want to flip the climb switch." As soon as I see that, I generally eliminate that bike from my list.

    I've also felt that someone could design suspensions that don't need them, rather than just licensing existing stuff that has varying degrees of bob resistance.

    This Polygon bike caught my eye immediately yesterday, and I'm sure like everyone here I thought, "What about Brian's design?" At least they did drop a mention in there of Brian's.

    I've always considered climb switches band-aids, so I'm happy to see some new designs coming forward. I miss that about the 90's - there were lots of good and bad ideas being tried. Lately we seem to have settled into some comfortable ruts (Horst, VPP, DW, etc.); I'm glad to see some new thinking coming out again. And that's why I have a Tantrum on the way.

  167. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Great update Brian! :-) Good to hear it's going smooth. It sounds like you are enjoying the process..

    (ps. please remember to check Revel fork upgrade before you head home! ;-) )


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    DEFINITELY enjoying it. That and the fact that i am now, at long last, a professional mountain biker. Sweet.

    I like it so much, I think I will start writing an ongoing monologue, maybe Starting a Bike Company for Dummies. I think it might be an interesting read as I travel through this adventure

    The revel remains an enigma.....

  168. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Well I'd like to think its on the way because I have one on order.

    160mm f/r "The Shining"

    I believe Brian is able to accomplish this modular-ly ie he's not producing two completely unique frame sections in order to create it.
    This is correct. I also have a 140 mm dropout for the 29er......but going from 125 mm to 160 convinced me that there is no downside, it even climbs better due to more geo change, so I'm not sure how long the 140 version might remain.

    It also immediately convinced me to make a 180 mm version of the 27.5, although that will take a few more parts, I still think I can do it with the existing front and rear frame set.

  169. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Interesting to see other patents appearing outside the gigantic box of todays mainstream..
    https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/04/12...-nothing-else/
    A good indication that evolution around mtb suspension have not peaked just yet.

    But I'm amazed how it's possible to writ such a long article. Mention Tantrum might be the closest thing in comparison (except the "massive amounts" of 20mm more rear travel..)
    But fail to even mention the radical difference when it comes to Missing Links unique adaptable geometry that makes it climbs so well compared to other pedal efficient patents..



    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk
    That is an interesting design for sure. And the internet engineers are gonna go nuts trying to quantify that with photo analysis.

    I would say it must have something going for it or it wouldn't have made it this far. Interestingly, i pitched the missing link to this bike company, not knowing they were 2 yrs down the road with this design.

    On the face of it, however, I will claim the active geometry advantage. I noticed a mention that "it didn't squat much on the climbs". Meaning of course, that it did squat.

    But I'd love to give it a ride. Part of the fun process of the demo rides is getting to ride other state of the art designs on awesome trails. Usually, my demo customers let me take one of their bikes out with them, so I've ridden most of the popular crop in the last year or so.

  170. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    This is correct. I also have a 140 mm dropout for the 29er......but going from 125 mm to 160 convinced me that there is no downside, it even climbs better due to more geo change, so I'm not sure how long the 140 version might remain.
    Hmm, Brian, I might send some more money to you to grab a set of 140mm 29ers while they last. You have my interest.

    Would the 140 be with the same shock as the 125?

  171. #371
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    While riding an old 2005 Fisher hardtail on my usual loop I forgot how fun a HT can be. I love how quick it accelerates and how snappy and repsonsive it climbed. I won't go into the issues of getting out of cadence due to bumps, roots, and water bars while climbing. To all you riders that have ridden Brian's Meltdown does the frame give you that snappy feel when climbing, not the slog of your pedal input being part way absorbed by the rear shock?

    I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on buying a new frame and this tantrum keeps nagging at me. I'd really love to demo one. I can't see spending a bunch of coin on a frame I've never ridden no matter how good the reviews.

    Thanks for any help

  172. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    To all you riders that have ridden Brian's Meltdown does the frame give you that snappy feel when climbing, not the slog of your pedal input being part way absorbed by the rear shock?
    It's basically locked out until the bump force overrides the pedal force at what seems to be the perfect leverage/force point with a seamless transition. I love the feel of climbing on a hardtail and the direct drive power, hate the energy that's robbed from suspension... this design caters to my (our?) interests as well as those who sit and spin who prefer active suspensions. Probably sounds like crazy internet claims... until you've ridden one.

  173. #373
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    The new Marin and Polygon bikes are stealing some of the thunder of remarkable new kinematics.
    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/marin-...irst-ride.html
    (and discussed/revealed on several other websites including this one)

    It doesn't have the same altering geometry but it does claim it keeps the geometry more stable for the rider ie less rider sag in the first place.

    It will be interesting when these bikes get more people riding/reviewing and when they end up comparing them to Tantrum. Polygon/Marin of course are huge compared to Brian/Tantrum so it looks like a bit of an additional burden to Brian's success to me although who knows it may open more riders into thinking about improved kinematics in their bikes.

    It is carbon, although no frame weights are given nor are bare frames available at least as of now. Not even sure exactly when you will be able to buy the bike. Its a bit ugly but no worse than Tantrum (sorry). It only takes 1* drivetrains which seems to be important only to me, and some tight heel clearance with that big swingarm. Maintenance of the big sliding shaft unknown.

    On the one hand, buying a kickstarter frame to try out Brian's idea is a small risk compared to spending $6k-8k up front for a complete high end bike.

    Just when you thought suspension was settled science.

  174. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    it may open more riders into thinking about improved kinematics in their bikes.
    I'm pretty sure it's going to open minds and help Brian's case if anything. He's not competing with big brands... and creating interest in improved kinematics and new designs is a burden he now shares (assuming these reviews have merit).

  175. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    It's basically locked out until the bump force overrides the pedal force at what seems to be the perfect leverage/force point with a seamless transition. I love the feel of climbing on a hardtail and the direct drive power, hate the energy that's robbed from suspension... this design caters to my (our?) interests as well as those who sit and spin who prefer active suspensions. Probably sounds like crazy internet claims... until you've ridden one.
    Thanks Eatsdirt, that just makes me want to demo one more. If anyone bought a size large in the Oregon area let me know. I'd like to get a frame before fall.

  176. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    While riding an old 2005 Fisher hardtail on my usual loop I forgot how fun a HT can be. I love how quick it accelerates and how snappy and repsonsive it climbed. I won't go into the issues of getting out of cadence due to bumps, roots, and water bars while climbing. To all you riders that have ridden Brian's Meltdown does the frame give you that snappy feel when climbing, not the slog of your pedal input being part way absorbed by the rear shock?
    So I'll say that I basically have two blinged out bikes I ride, a road bike and a Pivot Mach 5.7c which is a DW-link bike. I've been shopping for a new bike for a few months (and demoing here and there for a couple of years) because 26 is dead but I told myself I didn't want to spend money on a bike that isn't at least FASTER than my old one. Seemed like it wouldn't be a tall order--but it was. I've been demoing a bunch of bikes.

    The moment I get on the tantrum and started pedaling out the driveway I could feel it was faster. Honestly that's the best thing I can say about it in my opinion. It's so much faster you can feel it. Right away. It's like some of the delay from when you push on the pedal and when you are propelled forward is removed vs a normal FS bike. I have a hard tail MTB, and a road bike, so I know what instant response feels like. The tantrum feels closer to that than to my DW-link FS bike. But it's not a hard tail. It's in between. If you stand and mash, it will bob--but it grips for DAYS. It makes climbing easy. Is it a hard tail? No, but it's better than any other full suspension bike I've ridden by far. I have one on order.
    Last edited by litany; 04-20-2017 at 11:04 PM.

  177. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    While riding an old 2005 Fisher hardtail on my usual loop I forgot how fun a HT can be. I love how quick it accelerates and how snappy and repsonsive it climbed. I won't go into the issues of getting out of cadence due to bumps, roots, and water bars while climbing. To all you riders that have ridden Brian's Meltdown does the frame give you that snappy feel when climbing, not the slog of your pedal input being part way absorbed by the rear shock?

    I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on buying a new frame and this tantrum keeps nagging at me. I'd really love to demo one. I can't see spending a bunch of coin on a frame I've never ridden no matter how good the reviews.

    Thanks for any help
    Having ridden two of Brian's bikes I can say they never felt like a hardtail to me. Not that rigid, snappy feeling. Not that I would want them to tbh. They're suspension bikes and they'll move around under you, when you apply power to them, they stiffen and in proportion to how much power you're laying down, they feel.... efficient. So, when you're climbing that moderate climb in your hard tail and the back wheel is banging off of every root and rock, you'll have tactile feedback as to what is going on, on his bike, it'll mostly disappear since it's pretty supple while climbing. On a steep climb, while you're perched on the nose of your saddle, hopping your rear wheel over stuff, on his bike, you'll be sitting in the saddle while the rear wheel rolls over. It seamlessly gets stiffer until there is close to zero movement? Absolutely zero movement? I couldn't really tell since during those moments I had my hands full.

    If you want to feel what one of his bikes is like climbing without actually being able to get your hands on one, go demo a 120mm DWS bike, or VPP bike and whatever movement you can see/feel while climbing, cut it in half at a minimum and fully at a maximum. That's what his 160mm bike is like. Plus the geometry change thing. It's still a FS bike, just a better one.

  178. #378
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    I should probably clarify my experience... I only pedaled the bike on steep sustained grades outside of a quick parking lot lap. The linkage was basically topped out (locked out is a bad description) when it was remotely steep/smooth. No wasted effort or shock movement was felt, even when powering out of the saddle. On steep technical chunk, any bump force over-riding the pedaling force and activating the suspension was of no consequence to the effort being put out.

    As others mentioned, I also felt the very active nature when the efforts were a bit easier (dropping closer to sag) around the parking lot. No discernible pedal bob or loss of efficiency there either. The geo/weight bias seems to change perfectly appropriate to the effort and terrain involved.

    It's obviously nothing like a hard tail, but definitely shares some of the direct drive attributes.
    Last edited by EatsDirt; 04-21-2017 at 08:44 AM.

  179. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post
    Having ridden two of Brian's bikes I can say they never felt like a hardtail to me. Not that rigid, snappy feeling. Not that I would want them to tbh. They're suspension bikes and they'll move around under you, when you apply power to them, they stiffen and in proportion to how much power you're laying down, they feel.... efficient. So, when you're climbing that moderate climb in your hard tail and the back wheel is banging off of every root and rock, you'll have tactile feedback as to what is going on, on his bike, it'll mostly disappear since it's pretty supple while climbing. On a steep climb, while you're perched on the nose of your saddle, hopping your rear wheel over stuff, on his bike, you'll be sitting in the saddle while the rear wheel rolls over. It seamlessly gets stiffer until there is close to zero movement? Absolutely zero movement? I couldn't really tell since during those moments I had my hands full.

    If you want to feel what one of his bikes is like climbing without actually being able to get your hands on one, go demo a 120mm DWS bike, or VPP bike and whatever movement you can see/feel while climbing, cut it in half at a minimum and fully at a maximum. That's what his 160mm bike is like. Plus the geometry change thing. It's still a FS bike, just a better one.
    Thanks for all the responses. I'm not looking for a hardtail in the tantrum. I don't like how the HT bangs on every root and water bar where I ride when climbing. But at the same time riding the 2010 trek fuel (which is a decent climber) there's that lag or squat during hard climbing or even moderate climbing.

    After reading this thread multiple times I really need to try one before I buy somehow. This bike has to last me 5-10 years, as I'm a buy and ride it till it's dead or outdated kind of guy. Tantrum being a brand new untested company scares me a little in regards to warranty. I'm not worried about resell as I said by the time I'm usually done with a bike it's not worth much but scrap.

  180. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    I would say it must have something going for it or it wouldn't have made it this far. Interestingly, i pitched the missing link to this bike company, not knowing they were 2 yrs down the road with this design.
    You're in production and delivering product at virtually the same time so it was probably best that you went it by yourself. You've also got an option for carbon.


    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    On the face of it, however, I will claim the active geometry advantage. I noticed a mention that "it didn't squat much on the climbs". Meaning of course, that it did squat.
    The claim is little compression/rebound damping required so maybe there's massive stiction from the slider? Too much damping and the rear just packs down. I don't know if that's a desirable feature, but if it works then it works.

    (Cannondale Lefty's needle roller bearings in version 2 should free things up, if there is stiction)

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    Admitting that this is quite a different methodology to suspension design, it was described as the constant load on the chain holding the frame up – or on a plane. However, the suspension is free to move whenever it encounters a bump (even when pedaling) since the main link is always in compression. That ‘on plane’ concept also keeps the geometry constant when climbing or descending, and allows for a lower bottom bracket.
    https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/04/20...to-160mm-29er/

    I thought this was interesting, as I read it, it's better than what happens with a conventional suspension design that moves in the wrong direction no matter what you are doing, but not like the Tantrum that actively moves in the direction you would want.


    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMass View Post
    (Cannondale Lefty's needle roller bearings in version 2 should free things up, if there is stiction)
    What?

  182. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryman View Post

    What?
    I think he has somehow equated the Polygon design with Tantrum.

  183. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I think he has somehow equated the Polygon design with Tantrum.
    Yeah, sure..


    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    Interesting to see other patents appearing outside the gigantic box of todays mainstream..
    https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/04/12...-nothing-else/
    A good indication that evolution around mtb suspension have not peaked just yet.

    But I'm amazed how it's possible to writ such a long article. Mention Tantrum might be the closest thing in comparison (except the "massive amounts" of 20mm more rear travel..)
    But fail to even mention the radical difference when it comes to Missing Links unique adaptable geometry that makes it climbs so well compared to other pedal efficient patents..



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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    That is an interesting design for sure. And the internet engineers are gonna go nuts trying to quantify that with photo analysis.

    I would say it must have something going for it or it wouldn't have made it this far. Interestingly, i pitched the missing link to this bike company, not knowing they were 2 yrs down the road with this design.

    On the face of it, however, I will claim the active geometry advantage. I noticed a mention that "it didn't squat much on the climbs". Meaning of course, that it did squat.

    But I'd love to give it a ride. Part of the fun process of the demo rides is getting to ride other state of the art designs on awesome trails. Usually, my demo customers let me take one of their bikes out with them, so I've ridden most of the popular crop in the last year or so.

  184. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkMass View Post
    Yeah, sure..
    You're still not making any sense.

  185. #385
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    One question for Brian or the reviewers. Under transition from bump to hard pedalling, does the link "hit" a hard stop that you can hear? Is the stop integrated into the linkage design somehow, or does it utilise the full extension of the shock as a stop?
    I see hills.

    I want to climb them.

  186. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevob View Post
    One question for Brian or the reviewers. Under transition from bump to hard pedalling, does the link "hit" a hard stop that you can hear? Is the stop integrated into the linkage design somehow, or does it utilise the full extension of the shock as a stop?
    There is no hard stop you can hear. The linkage uses the full extension of the shock to limit linkage movement, but it's not abrupt. I got a very good demonstration of how that works prior to my demo ride.

  187. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cotharyus View Post
    There is no hard stop you can hear. The linkage uses the full extension of the shock to limit linkage movement, but it's not abrupt. I got a very good demonstration of how that works prior to my demo ride.

    Does the Link provide progressive resistance to squat as it moves through its travel? Or, is it an all or nothing affair?

  188. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Does the Link provide progressive resistance to squat as it moves through its travel? Or, is it an all or nothing affair?
    Yes, it is progressive. It's not all or nothing. Honestly if you close your eyes or don't look down you won't notice anything really going on with the linkage. All I noticed was:

    Acceleration was noticeably better than my lightweight, carbon DW-link bike. The fact that it was noticeable shocked me. There is less delay, it feels snappier.

    Going up hills just felt easier. It's hard to describe, but where I live it's very steep. 20% technical grades are common, and every trail I go up has steeper sections than that. So not having to focus on keeping my weight forward as much was also surprising. It also felt like it had more grip.

    I used to have a 2007 Blur LT with a Talas fork--using the talas felt almost necessary because the bike would sag so much on the steeps that the 40mm drop would help even things out. After a few years of riding like this I was at my LBS asking about the new Pivot DW-link bikes and why they didn't have Talas forks. Guy told me that they weren't as necessary as on the VPP bikes because the rear end rode higher. Sure enough it did. I was able to climb hills without talas on the pivot as with it on my Blur. Then there was the added benefit that the DW seemed to pedal a little bit better. The missing link is like the same step forward, but again.

    When you're going up super steep stuff you have to pedal hard, no matter what, which causes the rear end to rise more and gives you better grip without feeling like you're going to wheelie all the time. So you don't have to spend as much effort on controlling the bike and you can focus on pedaling hard. So yeah, in a way it does provide a progressive resistance to squat. The harder you pedal the less squat you get. It's seamless too, and when you hit a bump it absorbs it. It doesn't lock out--ever. It doesn't become a hard tail. It's not like the BRAIN where it locks out and then you hit a bump, get the seat shoved up your butt and then it decides to "open up" for you after it just tried to buck you off. It absorbs small bumps when climbing better than my dw-link bike. All while having something like more anti-squat. It just advances MTB suspension far enough that you can tell it's better.

    Brian is a racer, this bike is meant to go fast. If you want to feel like you are going fast buy a rigid bike. I took a wrong turn a few weeks ago and rode my road bike on a few miles of single track and fire road, it was a hoot. It felt like I was going fast because of how crazy bumpy it was. But I KNOW I was going super slowly. Sometimes bikes feel faster than they are, I think the tantrum is actually fast. It's the first bike I've ridden in years that I think is actually better and faster than my current bike in every way. Except for the whole carbon thing. I'd prefer a light weight carbon frame, because it would be lighter, but I'm gonna throw a 180mm lyrik on this thing and it'll still be below 25lbs.

    I think this bike rewards people who like to go fast uphills and downhills the most. It's truly an "all mountain" bike, with basically no downsides that I could see in my 1.5hr demo ride.

    I'm excited for my frame to come, I can't wait to ride it more. It's going to be so much fun.

  189. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by litany View Post
    >>>>>
    ....So yeah, in a way it does provide a progressive resistance to squat. The harder you pedal the less squat you get. It's seamless too, and when you hit a bump it absorbs it....
    <<<<<<
    .
    I would like to specify/correct you on this important point for everybody to understand.

    It's NOT only Squat that is terminated. But also the (for the specific speed/terrain less then optimal) Sag.


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  190. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Does the Link provide progressive resistance to squat as it moves through its travel? Or, is it an all or nothing affair?
    What Litany said...

    Or the short answer, it's progressive based on your effort. The harder you pedal, the more resistant it is to squat. When you're really pushing hard (steep climbs), it moves beyond sag to a steeper STA w/ a topped out shock.

    The geo/weight bias basically changes perfectly to the effort/terrain and does it seamlessly while having active suspension.

    I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't ridden one.

  191. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Westholm View Post
    I would like to specify/correct you on this important point for everybody to understand.

    It's NOT only Squat that is terminated. But also the (for the specific speed/terrain less then optimal) Sag.
    Yes, it reduces sag. The thing that "anti-squat" does is keep the bike from sagging EVEN more as a result of your acceleration. This bike is not just anti-squat, it's anti-sag.

    Imagine a rear wheel drive car accelerating: You get weight transfer to the rear (which means some squat). Anti-squat tries to prevent that from happening by resisting that acceleration squat. Missing link doesn't just reduce the squat from each acceleration of each pedal stroke, it reduces sag too. That's where the geometry change comes from. The benefit is when you reduce sag that much, and then hit a bump, your suspension is super soft and eager to absorb that bump. So it tackles those bumps very efficiently. You'd think that all that anti-squat anti-sag would jack up the rear and make it firm to bumps, but it doesn't. It absorbs them very well, which is what I think is what is so special about the missing link. That's really what I think it comes down to.

    It rewards faster riders, you get more efficiency, better bump absorption, better traction, and better geometry for climbing. Then when you start going down hill you have a sweet bike with a slack fork, long travel, & dialed rear end.

  192. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by litany View Post
    .

    It rewards faster riders, you get more efficiency, better bump absorption, better traction, and better geometry for climbing. Then when you start going down hill you have a sweet bike with a slack fork, long travel, & dialed rear end.
    How is the playfulness of the tantrum? With that slacked out HTA, is it just a bomb down with reckless abandon or can you hit features, flick the bike around and play on natural terrain and so forth?

  193. #393
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    I think it's plenty playful. For comparison I rode a pivot switchblade--that thing defined monster truck for me. It actually wasn't really fun but it was impressive it its own way. The tantrum I think is a good balance. Didn't seem to lose anything compared to my 26er.

  194. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    I'm pretty sure it's going to open minds and help Brian's case if anything. He's not competing with big brands... and creating interest in improved kinematics and new designs is a burden he now shares (assuming these reviews have merit).
    I agree with you here. I am amazed at the amount of people that insist everything is as good as it gets. I'm also glad they are bucking the "antisquat and leverage curve are all you need to tell what's happening". Sooooo many of the internet engineers think those 2 things are all that matters.

    Keep in mind, I have no idea what that suspension does........nor will I try to analyze it by photo

  195. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    Well I'd like to think its on the way because I have one on order.

    160mm f/r "The Shining"

    I believe Brian is able to accomplish this modular-ly ie he's not producing two completely unique frame sections in order to create idt.
    An then there's this: Illegitimate offspring of the Shinning and the Meltdown, I give you....the Shinedown

    160 mm of boossted 29er DVO goodness up front and 160 mm of 27.5 DVO butter in the rear

    color: Blood Redrum
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New innovative suspension from Tantrum Cycles. Any thoughts...-shinedown-es.jpg  


  196. #396
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    So has any one thought of building one of these as a single speed


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  197. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    An then there's this: Illegitimate offspring of the Shinning and the Meltdown, I give you....the Shinedown

    160 mm of boossted 29er DVO goodness up front and 160 mm of 27.5 DVO butter in the rear

    color: Blood Redrum
    This just gets more unique. So versatile with modular dropout tuning.

    I give up on finding out what the f... that new mystery hole on the ML are supposed to do... Adjustable topout or an emergency lockout?
    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    An then there's this: Illegitimate offspring of the Shinning and the Meltdown, I give you....the Shinedown

    160 mm of boossted 29er DVO goodness up front and 160 mm of 27.5 DVO butter in the rear

    color: Blood Redrum

    Sent fra min XT1562 via Tapatalk

  198. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by TantrumCycles View Post
    An then there's this: Illegitimate offspring of the Shinning and the Meltdown, I give you....the Shinedown

    160 mm of boossted 29er DVO goodness up front and 160 mm of 27.5 DVO butter in the rear

    color: Blood Redrum
    Brian I love the color but how does it ride?

  199. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddiesconfusion View Post
    Brian I love the color but how does it ride?
    I freakin love it so far. The 29er front with 160 has silly rollover and is at least a little closer to the rear in terms of plushness. And the dco fork is pretty plush

    But now, first opinion of the revalve i had dvo do on the rear is just,..silly butter. This thing moves when you rest your hand on the saddle. And while i haven't had enough time to be sure it has enough bottoming resistance, i have zero volume spacers in it at the moment.

    @eatsdirt, you said the rear "disappeared" before in the gnar? It's better. Way better.

    And the thing carves and pops. The 29er fr and rear just always has a "longer" fell in the corners. Thise physics can't be denied

  200. #400
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    Brian, just curious... what size frame is the Redrum" and what is the bb height? I'm thinking 120/130 front 29" and 160 rear 27.5" for my xc and a bit more bike!

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