Hardtail Decision - need help- Mtbr.com
Results 1 to 52 of 52
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18

    Hardtail Decision - need help

    Hi guys,

    i am actually new to the whole MTB community (been motorcycling past 7 years...).

    As i am getting into more of a nature-esque type of exploration, i want to get my hands on a Hardtail. After plenty of research i narrowed it to the following 3 :

    - Salsa Timberjack NX 2019
    - Specialized Fuse Comp 29 2020
    - Specialized Fuse 6Fattie 2019

    I am from Montreal, so I plan on riding local Green/Blue trails, and commute to work during the week (OKA, Mont sainte Anne and such for the ones that know the area)

    In that regard, the price points of the above bikes are as follows (in CAD dollars)
    - Salsa (2699$ original price, sale at 1899$)
    - 2020 Fuse Comp is brand new for 2020 and is 1999$
    - 2019 Fuse 6Fattie is 1599$ on sale.

    The Fuse is an overall much better rated hardtail across the board amongst many reviewers, even the 2019 outgoing model.


    Which would you recommend for an all-rounder, long term hardtail, and any suggestions are appreciated.
    I am looking into future upgradeability in longer 140mm forks if necessary, and overall better bang for the buck package.
    I am 5'9", so all the bikes listed above are available in Medium size at my local bike shops.

  2. #2
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,240
    Ok, first let's assume we're looking at the same stuffs. At 5'9 i'd err toward a large with these conservative hardtails. Especially with sliding drops like the timberjack. Hardtail geo in this segment tends to be pretty conservative, so it's still sensible to 'size up' on bike shop brands.

    L timberjack- wheelbase- 1150-1167, reach 452, fork- sektor RL, brakes- sram level
    L fuse comp- wheelbase- 1188, reach 460, fork- sektor RL, brakes- sram level
    L fuse 6fattie- wheelbase- 1145, reach 435, fork- suntour XCM, brakes- tektro auriga


    Well obviously the 6fattie fuse is not competitive. Disposable fork with inadequate damping, much too short wheelbase and reach, brakes that make sram level look good. No. That bike is obsolete as soon as you decide you like mtb.

    Between the other two they both have merits, assuming you're shopping size large. The longer fuse appeals to me, but adjustable chainstays are awesome. They're both decent, but not what i'd want as a hardtail aficionado. I see sram kit as unfortunate, but they both feature it. Seems that sram makes a really compelling case for itself in the OE market. Overall i think you can do better.

    If i were in your situation i'd explore a couple ideas
    -a 100$ mtb from the 90s for commuting. They are much better for that than what you're shopping, and new cables/housings, slick tires, and a diy service is cheap and fun. If it's stolen... meh. 200$ all-in should buy something that will be great for >5000 miles.
    -CRC has vitus and nukeproof hardtails that might be much better alternatives. Commencal, RSD, Ragley, and On-one might have better options as well.
    -level brakes suck, and i'd rather pay more up front for a better fork than a sektor RL. Fox and especially manitou outperform RS in price-point forks. Shimano > sram at any retail price comparison. Err, if someone is offering deore shifting/braking with a manitou/fox fork... HELL YES. That's good kit.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    I do agree, components might not be the best, but they do fit the price you pay after all...

    Any particular model HT in the Nukeproof/Vitus that doesn't break the bank either?
    I was looking at the Orbea Laufey H10 as well, but then at close to 3k, a whole lot of options open up, but I am not sure I want to shed that kind of money yet as a starting bike.

    If I decide to spend more (initial budget was no more than 2k, 2.5k), are double suspension worth it? Say the Giant Stance 2, or Marin Hawk Hill/Rift Zone range...same price as the Fuse Comp 2020, but I read that its far better to have a HT with better components at the same price point. Also, Marin San Quentin 2/3 was in my scope.

    Any input/model/spec configuration is appreciated.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ocnLogan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    797
    What is your bike storage/locking situation at work? What about home storage?

    Commuting bikes are typically fairly different than what youíd want for trail riding (at least if you commute any significant distance). You probably want something with fairly slick tires (big aggressive tires that are great on trails, are horrible when on pavement). You probably want something with a fairly wide gearing range since youíll likely be on pavement 99% of the time, where speeds are higher than they are on dirt.

    And, if you lock the bike outside, itís exposed to the weather all day, and the possibility of theft is increased. A cheap, not as pretty older bike is less likely to be stolen than a nice new hardtail, and if it is stolen, then youíll be less sad about it.

    So if you have the space, a cheap commuter bike, and a good trail hardtail would likely be better at both activities than a single bike.

    I commuted on a 2012, 26in wheeled, 3x10 cross country mountain bike for almost 5 years. It worked great for that. I did ride some trails with it as well, but it was closer to what most people call gravel riding now.

    I was living in an apartment, and any bike stored outside would be stolen (lost two bikes that way). So I had to split the difference. I would have preferred a two bike setup, but it wasnít possible at that phase.

    If you do use the same bike for both activities, then choosing the correct tires will be a big deal, and likely a noticeable compromise for both activities.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    Space/storage and safety (as in possibility to be stolen) is no issue, both at home and work.

    Also, what in the hell is the difference between Expert/Race/Comp trims, say for Nukeproof HT bikes, as I see it on many many top review lists.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    What is your bike storage/locking situation at work? What about home storage?

    Commuting bikes are typically fairly different than what youíd want for trail riding (at least if you commute any significant distance). You probably want something with fairly slick tires (big aggressive tires that are great on trails, are horrible when on pavement). You probably want something with a fairly wide gearing range since youíll likely be on pavement 99% of the time, where speeds are higher than they are on dirt.

    And, if you lock the bike outside, itís exposed to the weather all day, and the possibility of theft is increased. A cheap, not as pretty older bike is less likely to be stolen than a nice new hardtail, and if it is stolen, then youíll be less sad about it.

    So if you have the space, a cheap commuter bike, and a good trail hardtail would likely be better at both activities than a single bike.

    I commuted on a 2012, 26in wheeled, 3x10 cross country mountain bike for almost 5 years. It worked great for that. I did ride some trails with it as well, but it was closer to what most people call gravel riding now.

    I was living in an apartment, and any bike stored outside would be stolen (lost two bikes that way). So I had to split the difference. I would have preferred a two bike setup, but it wasnít possible at that phase.

    If you do use the same bike for both activities, then choosing the correct tires will be a big deal, and likely a noticeable compromise for both activities.

  6. #6
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    Space/storage and safety (as in possibility to be stolen) is no issue, both at home and work.

    Also, what in the hell is the difference between Expert/Race/Comp trims, say for Nukeproof HT bikes, as I see it on many many top review lists.
    So for commuting, a comfy bike that pedals nicely is all you want. Old mtbs that are shit as mtbs can be superior commuters. My commuter is a 2005 singlespeed with hydro brakes and 'comfort bike' tires. I have a small stack of fancy mtbs, but they cost more/mile to ride on pavement, and they're slower and less satisfying to ride around town. I have road bikes, but drop bars are mostly a disadvantage on shorter rides where you might encounter cars. To each his own, though.

    I'm not going to look up those trims. In general, the folks who spec out the frames try to make the best bike at a price point. Budget HT is a brutal segment- it's hard to anticipate that user's expectations. They figure if you're riding MUT trails you won't notice inferior brakes or suspension, and that if you're only riding 1-2 weekends you wont notice a slow, weak hub. Etc. There's a billion cost cutting compromise decisions, and ideally you won't notice them. If you're breaking in to the sport you'll realize one day you've 'outgrown' your bike, but you might never need the $$ equipment. If you're already a good bike handler for some reason it can get more complicated and you might get frustrated with price-point gear pretty quickly. It's hard to know in advance.

    All that said, the good stuff is just better. If you have unlimited budget just go buy a nice bike.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    I will get a cheap road bike for commuting if thats the case...

    Budget wise, i want to get an all-around HT mountain bike that doesn't break the bank and that I can learn on (cheaper than full sus, easier to maintain, etc).

    As I am new, I dont plan on spending huge amounts of time or money on a bike, because I might also not like it...I can go out straight and buy the top spec Nukeproof Scout 290 Expert with a Fox 34 130mm (or 140mm, i dont recall) shock, and all the fun bells and whistles...but that is not what I want as of now, maybe down the road, when I get into it more and learn all there is, hence the "budget" price point for the time being...although the 275/290 Nukeproofs Scout Race/Comp are actually cheaper than the Specialized Fuse (at 1700$), but seem to come with Deore, but with similar RockShox Reckon RL fork with 140mm travel.

    Also, by the time I get to the outgrowing part, they probably will come up with more recent bikes (say 2years from now), so the 3k ill spend for a top spec, pre-built bike now, might be better spent in 2 years, when better components come out.

    The only hesitation point is for warranties and all, seeing Nukeproof is European, and I have no dealer support in my province...so it might be tricky. I have access to all North American brands like Norco, Trek, Specialized, Giant, Kona, Marlin etc...

    So if you guys had 2k to spend on a HT, which is your pick? (I can stretch the bank, but rather not as a first HT bike)
    Any input on preferred components to look for is appreciated, as I am In full research mode and want the best bang for the buck.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    3,079
    Based on your last post, keep an eye out for a used bike. Unfortunately, I think there will be some folks looking to get rid of luxury items.

    If nothing good pops up in the next few weeks, go back to shopping for new bikes.

  9. #9
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post

    Also, by the time I get to the outgrowing part, they probably will come up with more recent bikes (say 2years from now), so the 3k ill spend for a top spec, pre-built bike now, might be better spent in 2 years, when better components come out.
    So this is what makes it tough.

    I've been riding TOTL hardtails for a fair bit longer than you've been mtbing. I don't think there's been a spec change in the last 10 years that's truly altered the riding experience. Like sure, if you weren't running a chainguide in 2010 it sucked, and long FC geo has made better bikes. As had smart 29er geo. (fkn FINALLY)

    But none of that is more than novelty innovation. If you were super perceptive in 2005 your riding experience was mostly the same as it is in 2020. We've mostly weeded out the dumb ideas, we're building awesome 29er/650+ components, and innovation is going to be harder to come by in the future. There's no more low hanging fruit, once you know what fruit is. I don't think there's any miracle coming down the pipe, just better understanding of expectations and niches. Optimization, not revolution.

    I've soured on FS because although it's superior the difference is small (imo) compared to a custom big-budget hardtail. A properly nice hardtail is a superior ride most of the time.


    OTOH i know that FS is a miracle for that first year you have a FS bike.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    629
    The responses are excellent.
    We have four HT in the garage from GT, Specialized, and Norco.

    Mine is a tricked out fuse 6f. The new 2020 frame will be a better bike. There are no more 3.0Ē tires sold for the fattie. Not really anyway. So dont buy the 2019 model. Even though its a blast to ride.

    29x2.6Ē seems to be the current trend.

    i hate wasting money. Given the economy, bikes are going to go on sale.

    the fuse expert at $2k would be nice. Its also got great tires imo.

    road/commute use sucks on modern trail tires. Not bad for a five minute ride though.

  11. #11
    Wanna ride bikes?
    Reputation: *OneSpeed*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    7,387
    Salsa!! Hands down no question. Much better geo, and a much cooler brand, and a better build kit.

    Salsa makes great bikes. Specialized sucks.

    Stick with a hardtail, no need for full suspension for at least 2 years. I also agree you should get a cheap beater for commuting.
    Rigid SS 29er
    SS 29+
    Fat Lefty
    SS cyclocross
    Full Sus 29er (Yuck)

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  12. #12
    Stubby-legged
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,224
    RSD Middlechild is the new Instigator.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    For an everyday commuter, I will get a Singlespeed from a local shop. I like the looks and usability of those.

    Seeing as we are going in lockdown for 3 weeks, I still have time to thinker around, but as it stands now, the Salsa 2019 is the best option.

    Any input on other options out there under the $2k CAD dollars mark that I should consider? Seems like the majority of HT at that 2k mark have RockShox Rekon or Sektor 130-140mm travel forks, with SRAM components, with the Salsa Timberjack NX+ having the best kit of them all...kind of hard to beat at that price point for a do-it all HT with so many options to fiddle around, and kits to add (bags, bottles, tire swaps, etc)

  14. #14
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    27,992
    The Timberjack is a nice frame, but I'm not impressed with the build kit on it. My wife is looking at getting a frame and building it up. We have some parts at home we can use as the beginning for a build to reduce the number of things we have to buy. But my wife's goal is to build a lighter trail hardtail that's optimized for mixed surface and gravel riding. We're doing due diligence, though, and are also considering used frames that might work.

    Not to mention the economic uncertainty that the pandemic has plunged us into.

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Posts
    124
    I bought my son a Commencal Meta HT Junior as a mail order test bike 3 weeks ago. In my opinion it is actually really nice with regards to build quality and components for the money (compared to LBS). After it passed the mail order test, a week later I bought myself a new Commencal Meta AM V4.2. I'm happy enough with the quality of these two bikes that it is likely I will also buy my daughter one of the 20" Meta HT bikes this summer.

    My sons Commencal came with a 150mm Recon RL fork, and I figured it would be lousy, and that when we found a good deal on a higher end fork we would swap it. However, after watching him riding the bike for 3 weeks, the Recon RL is not bad at all. It is a budget fork yes, no it does not work like the Pike on my HT or the Yari on my FS, but it works quite well given the price point of the fork. It works way better than I expected it would, to the point that I really don't see a reason to upgrade, unless I got a crazy stupid priced deal.

    Just because the lower price bikes come with the Recon RL, it's not really a terrible fork, that is what they have to spec to get the price point.

    The tires that came on his Commencal are the Vee Flow Snap 27.5x2.35, and I thought I would swap them immediately because they are heavy. However, my son really likes them because the tires stick to the ground very well. I watch him lean the bike into corners at speeds he never could do before with his old bike and Rocket Rons. If you read the family/kids forum here, you may be led to believe that Rocket Rons are the best kids bike tire of all time.

    So what is my point. My point is what you read here will continuously creep your purchase towards higher end bikes. In one of your posts you had said you are new to all of this, for that reason, I propose that a Recon RL is likely to be perfectly fine for your use case. If you grow out of the Recon riding it this summer, then wait until the end of the year for the leftover clearance deals to pop up and upgrade. Don't get to overly focuses that one bike is for MTB and one bike is for commuting and one bike is for whatever, you won't figure out what you really like until you start riding a bike, and you will learn more of what you don't like about it than what you do.

    If you want a recommendation I would look at the 2020 Commencal Meta HT 29 Ride for $1999 Canadian. I looked at the Specialized, Giant, Trek, Cannondale, and Ghost bikes for my son locally, and every time, I went back to that the Commencal and Nukeproof had way better components or the same money. I bought the Commencal because the Nukeproof was out of stock. It is likely we would be just as happy with the Nukeproof. I have not looked at the bikes you listed specifically, but in my experience, the LBS bikes are normally specced much lower end compared to the manfacturer direct bikes.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    13,027
    This Vitus is a current good value. $1161.49 CA.
    https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/...ort%3Dpricelow
    Boost front and rear hubs with 30mm wide rims. Decent fork better than a Recon RL. Good geo. Shadow Plus clutch rear derailleur You have money left for a better front brake if needed. Close match to the Scout Race.

    5'9" size also depends on your actual not pants inseam measurement. If you have long legs you'll have a shorter torso and will fit better with less reach like on a M. And a L may work if you have a longer torso and a bit shorter legs. So measure your inseam in shoes in inches.

  17. #17
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    For an everyday commuter, I will get a Singlespeed from a local shop. I like the looks and usability of those.
    So this might seem like a big ask up front, but if you see mtb as part of your future this is good advice...

    For a commuter- buy a rigid mtb from the 1990-1995 era. Rigid fork, ideally. It's nice if it was fancy, but it doesn't really matter. Get one that fits. This should cost 50-200$, and figure 100$ to replace the tires/cable+housings/brakepads.

    Buy the cable cutters, cone wrenches, and allen keys you'll need to do the work. Don't worry about the cost. A reconditioned rigid mtb will serve you >10k commuting service easily, and it's the perfect platform for practice mechanics.

    Road bikes in the 90s were super refined examples of iterative innovation, and mtb borrowed those technologies. Those old mtbs were crap, but also really good... as commuters (or flat bar gravel bikes). They're great commuters, and it's cheap and good experience reconditioning one.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: CHROMAG19's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    578
    Chromag all day .

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    I was looking into your comments, thank you very much.
    Say I go balls out...one time big spend, and im set for a long time.

    I really love the look of 2020 Nukeproof Scout Expert (the green is smexy)...And their description as it being a very do-it-all MTB HT.

    yes, it is 3k, it is the top of the line specs. both the 275 and 290 are available in Canada with customs already in the price (from CRC, id have to pay customs and whatnot, so I am not sure if the end bill is favoring the direct Canadian shipment, but I will contact CRC beforehand)

    Now, 275 or 290? I opt for 275 as it will be more nimble and accommodates better into 29er wheels than the opposite (from 29 to 27.5)

    Then there is the Commencal Meta HT Race which is a bit cheaper but comes as a 29 out the box.
    Both links below to the ones I am eyeing...which would you pick as a do-it all, out of the box pre-built bike.

    https://www.commencalcanada.com/meta...29-c2x28625047

    https://www.canadacycles.com/product...mport-tariffs/

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    8
    Been looking at similar priced hard tails as the OP. Kinda narrowed it down to the timberjack because I can get it locally but really like the Nukeproof scout and the Commencal meta. Looking at the Ragley too, can anyone comment on them. I donít want to go over 2k. Thanks

  21. #21
    Wanna ride bikes?
    Reputation: *OneSpeed*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    7,387
    If you're in Canada, Norco makes some pretty cool hardtails. Chromag too. Kona too.
    Rigid SS 29er
    SS 29+
    Fat Lefty
    SS cyclocross
    Full Sus 29er (Yuck)

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by *OneSpeed* View Post
    If you're in Canada, Norco makes some pretty cool hardtails. Chromag too. Kona too.
    nah, checked them out...not worth imo, cant afford no Chromag, just the frame is 2k...and I want an out of the box ready machine, which Kona and Norco lack

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ocnLogan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    797
    I seriously considered a hardtail last year. I looked at pretty much every hardtail I could find in the US in the $1000-2000 price range.

    The Salsa is a good frame, but the MSRP for the build kits made it less competitive on value compared to others. It also has a somewhat more conservative geo than many of the newer hardtails, which may be a pro, or a con for you. I'd lump it into the same generic category as the Santa Cruz Chameleon and the Kona Honzo personally. Good bikes all of them, but never interested me much.

    Here were the ones that I considered the best values when I was looking.

    Nukeproof Scout Race, Vitus Sentier, Whyte 901, Diamondback Sync'r, Ragley Marley/Big Al/MmmBop.

    Depending on what you value, they may or may not be what you're looking for, but they're all worth checking out.

    Good luck on the search .

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    629
    Still the fuse expert at a steep discount would be the best. Supports single speed should you ever wish.

    My local bike shop is closing doors, wont order anything and wants to sell inventory badly. The canadian stores have a limited window to sell bikes. Dont hesitate to call up a shop and make an offer.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuse6F View Post
    Still the fuse expert at a steep discount would be the best. Supports single speed should you ever wish.

    My local bike shop is closing doors, wont order anything and wants to sell inventory badly. The canadian stores have a limited window to sell bikes. Dont hesitate to call up a shop and make an offer.
    The Fuse Expert is not on sale unfortunately...same price as the Scout Expert or Commencal stated beforehand...and those are better speced by far imo...

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    I seriously considered a hardtail last year. I looked at pretty much every hardtail I could find in the US in the $1000-2000 price range.

    The Salsa is a good frame, but the MSRP for the build kits made it less competitive on value compared to others. It also has a somewhat more conservative geo than many of the newer hardtails, which may be a pro, or a con for you. I'd lump it into the same generic category as the Santa Cruz Chameleon and the Kona Honzo personally. Good bikes all of them, but never interested me much.

    Here were the ones that I considered the best values when I was looking.

    Nukeproof Scout Race, Vitus Sentier, Whyte 901, Diamondback Sync'r, Ragley Marley/Big Al/MmmBop.

    Depending on what you value, they may or may not be what you're looking for, but they're all worth checking out.

    Good luck on the search .
    Care to clarify something? What is the difference between the 290 with a 130mm fork vs the 275 with the 140mm...and that Race vs Expert trim (I guess Expert has all the top components)

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    13,027
    29 rolls over obstacles easier than 27.5.
    The Expert has quality upper mid level components.
    You won't need to upgrade them for several years.

  28. #28
    since 4/10/2009
    Reputation: Harold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    27,992
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    Care to clarify something? What is the difference between the 290 with a 130mm fork vs the 275 with the 140mm...and that Race vs Expert trim (I guess Expert has all the top components)
    You oftentimes see the 27.5 version of a bike with a little more travel up front. It's frequently a geometry-equalizing thing, oftentimes to raise the bb of a bike with the smaller wheels. There's also oftentimes a difference in riding style between a rider who would choose the smaller wheel over the larger one. Also because the smaller wheels are stiffer and the bike benefits from a little more fork travel. It's only 10mm, so the difference will be subtle.

    Trim difference is always about component quality. What the increase in component quality gets you will depend on the individual component. Sometimes better precision or more adjustable/tuneable or lighter or more durable or grippier or more color choices or oftentimes a combination of these. Also sometimes new functions get added. Take for example a bike where the base trim has a rigid seatpost but a higher trim level gets a dropper. That happens often enough.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    You oftentimes see the 27.5 version of a bike with a little more travel up front. It's frequently a geometry-equalizing thing, oftentimes to raise the bb of a bike with the smaller wheels. There's also oftentimes a difference in riding style between a rider who would choose the smaller wheel over the larger one. Also because the smaller wheels are stiffer and the bike benefits from a little more fork travel. It's only 10mm, so the difference will be subtle.

    Trim difference is always about component quality. What the increase in component quality gets you will depend on the individual component. Sometimes better precision or more adjustable/tuneable or lighter or more durable or grippier or more color choices or oftentimes a combination of these. Also sometimes new functions get added. Take for example a bike where the base trim has a rigid seatpost but a higher trim level gets a dropper. That happens often enough.
    From my understanding after several Youtube viewings across many reviews, and comparisons, what i came up with is the following:

    -27.5 wheel size is better for some more technical areas as it is more nimble, and lighter, and flickable.
    -29 is for easier rolling over, but it also is bigger, heavier and less flickable.

    That being said, a bike being more slack means it is meant for more agressive riding as it will soak roots and rocks a bit better, but climbing would be a bit of an issue. Steeper front is the opposite...

    As i will be riding more of the flow-ish trails to start (green and blue trails), and being more oriented towards adventure/all-mountain/exploration, correct me if i am going sideways, but id be better off getting a 27.5 with a bit less slack than, say, a San Quentin or Commencal.

    In that regard, the Nukeproof Scout seems to fit the best overall spot, whereas the Commencal would be more of an Enduro/go down harder and more agressively HT.

    Also, 27.5 is more playful because of the reasons above, and going up to 29" wheels is a better compromise than going the opposite way (pedal stroke issues because you are closer to the ground when you drop to 275 wheels)

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    13,027
    29 is fully flickable and plenty playful these days with current geo.
    If you're doing dirt jump air tricks you would then choose a smaller wheel bike.
    I wouldn't consider a 27.5 hardtail. I'd suggest you ride some bikes in the two wheel sizes.
    XCO World Cup competitors ride 29. Zero 27.5. Even for flat track races.
    You might consider a 27.5 in an enduro full suspension. I would still go 29.

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ocnLogan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    797
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    Care to clarify something? What is the difference between the 290 with a 130mm fork vs the 275 with the 140mm...and that Race vs Expert trim (I guess Expert has all the top components)
    I should have checked the models again. In 2019, I believe the Race was the midrange model (had a $1350 MSRP), and there was a "sport" that was the cheap one.

    Now Race is the cheap model ($1100), Comp is the midrange ($1500), and Expert is the top of the line $2100 model.

    The 29, and 27.5 frames are different, pretty much only in the amount of bottom bracket drop they have. But 29in wheels have better roll over than 27.5 tires (ie, the same size bump feels smaller on a 29in wheel than on 27.5in wheel). Its quite common for 29in models to have less travel than their 27.5 wheeled counterparts.

    The reason the 29'er frames have more bottom bracket drop, is to keep the bottom bracket about the same height as the 27.5in model that sits on shorter wheels. This keeps the center of gravity about where it should be to ride similarly.

    The Race model has a 10 speed drivetrain, but with a wide range cassette (11-46). It has mid-low end 2 piston shimano disk brakes. The tires are actually not bad (usually a weak point on cheap models), but it doesn't have a dropper post. And of course, the fork is relatively low end, and is soloair (older less comfortable air spring).

    The comp model has an entry level 12 speed drivetrain (SX Eagle, 11-50), a dropper post, and different mid-entry level SRAM 2 piston brakes (Level T). The fork is a bit nicer, and is debonair (newer more comfortable air spring).

    The Expert model has better wheels, a mid range 12 speed drivetrain (SLX, 10-51), mid range 4 piston brakes (SLX), and a much nicer fork.

    Personally, the Race model with a few specific upgrades would probably be the best value, unless you wanted to jump all the way to the Expert model straightaway.

    I say that meaning that adding a dropper post, and or upgraded brakes to the Race model wouldn't be very expensive. But I say that because the 10 speed drivetrain doesn't bother me, and I don't consider the 12 speed SX eagle an upgrade. And I like the color better :P.

    But if you also planning on upgrading the fork/wheels/brakes, then the expert model is a better deal.

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    29 is fully flickable and plenty playful these days with current geo.
    If you're doing dirt jump air tricks you would then choose a smaller wheel bike.
    I wouldn't consider a 27.5 hardtail. I'd suggest you ride some bikes in the two wheel sizes.
    XCO World Cup competitors ride 29. Zero 27.5. Even for flat track races.
    You might consider a 27.5 in an enduro full suspension. I would still go 29.
    Thanks for the info

  33. #33
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    From my understanding after several Youtube viewings across many reviews, and comparisons, what i came up with is the following:

    -27.5 wheel size is better for some more technical areas as it is more nimble, and lighter, and flickable.
    -29 is for easier rolling over, but it also is bigger, heavier and less flickable.

    That being said, a bike being more slack means it is meant for more agressive riding as it will soak roots and rocks a bit better, but climbing would be a bit of an issue. Steeper front is the opposite...

    As i will be riding more of the flow-ish trails to start (green and blue trails), and being more oriented towards adventure/all-mountain/exploration, correct me if i am going sideways, but id be better off getting a 27.5 with a bit less slack than, say, a San Quentin or Commencal.

    In that regard, the Nukeproof Scout seems to fit the best overall spot, whereas the Commencal would be more of an Enduro/go down harder and more agressively HT.

    Also, 27.5 is more playful because of the reasons above, and going up to 29" wheels is a better compromise than going the opposite way (pedal stroke issues because you are closer to the ground when you drop to 275 wheels)
    That's the popular consensus, but i don't agree with it. IMO if you're >6' tall then there isn't any advantage to 650b. If you're a dynamic <5'5 rider 29ers are a tough sell. In between...

    It's not the side of the wheels make 29ers plow and 650b nimble, it's what the do to the bike geo.


    With hardtails you give up almost nothing going for a bike with a longer front-center ("more slack," but a more useful way of looking at it), so it's tough for me to get excited about the more conservative models. Long bikes climb just as capably. Now, if the longer bike has a 7lb frame and a bruiser parts kit... yeah.


    I went and looked at the 29er geo for all 3. They look like they're all intended for the same application, but they vary quite a bit in how they'll handle. I like the san quentin geo the most, but i wouldn't say no to any of them. Taking the build kits in to account- i'd go with the commencal. Good fork, solid build otherwise.

    Looking at these, i don't think i'd splash out for the fancy scout. The commencal is gonna give you just as good experience for 900$ less.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ocnLogan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    797
    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    That's the popular consensus, but i don't agree with it. IMO if you're >6' tall then there isn't any advantage to 650b. If you're a dynamic <5'5 rider 29ers can be a tough sell. In between...

    It's not the side of the wheels make 29ers plow and 650b nimble, it's what the do to the bike geo.


    With hardtails you give up almost nothing going for a bike with a longer front-center ("more slack," but a more useful way of looking at it), so it's tough for me to get excited about the more conservative models. Long bikes climb just as capably. Now, if the longer bike has a 7lb frame and a bruiser parts kit... yeah.

    I went and looked at the 29er geo for all 3. They look like they're all intended for the same application, but they vary quite a bit in how they'll handle. I like the san quentin geo the most, but i wouldn't say no to any of them. Taking the build kits in to account- i'd go with the commencal. Good fork, solid build otherwise.

    Looking at these, i don't think i'd splash out for the fancy scout. The commencal is gonna give you just as good experience for 900$ less.
    Which Commencal build are you talking about that is $900 less, and as good of an experience? From what I see, the top end builds for both the commencal/nukeproof are the same price, and so are the low end builds ($2100 for the top of the line, and $1100 for the low end respectively).

    The low end build commencal build I've always found strange. Its got a narrow range cassette (11-36), that just doesn't make much sense for a trail bike imo.

    The $1200 model isn't bad. Same brakes and drivetrain as the $1500 nukeproof, but doesn't have a dropper. Does have a slightly better fork, and slightly larger front rotor though. So I guess thats a bit better deal, just not $900 better. Or maybe I'm comparing things wrong?

    I agree with your other sentiment. The more conservative hardtails out there just don't sound appealing to me, and where I ride. So the Honzo/Timberjack/Chameleon aren't ones that I've ever seriously looked into because of that.

    Also, I briefly test rode a San Quentin in the parking lot once. Its geo was dialed, and fit me quite well. Would recommend. If you can find a good deal on one, they're a fun ride.

    Although I'd prefer a 29'er model, but I'm also 6'1".

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    This is far harder than i expected, not gonna lie

  36. #36
    Wanna ride bikes?
    Reputation: *OneSpeed*'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    7,387
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    This is far harder than i expected, not gonna lie
    This being your first bike don't stress, literally any bike that has been discussed would be just fine. You just need to get a bike and get on it. It will serve you well for at least a couple years, at which point you'll be much more informed about what you want out of a bike.

    You don't have any basis for comparison, try not to nerd out too hard on the details. It's called analysis paralysis.

    Whatever you buy you'll adapt to. The most important thing is to get a bike and get on it. The rest you'll figure out as you go.
    Rigid SS 29er
    SS 29+
    Fat Lefty
    SS cyclocross
    Full Sus 29er (Yuck)

    Stop asking how much it weighs and just go ride it.

  37. #37
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    This is far harder than i expected, not gonna lie
    The current bikes you're looking at are all cool and are gonna be a heap of fun. Don't worry about it. All the choices are good.

    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    Which Commencal build are you talking about that is $900 less, and as good of an experience?
    Oh, i got from one of the comments here that the TOTL nukeproof was 3k. Same $2100 makes sense. Then i like the commencal geo more, and the nukeproof component spec. But i like them both a lot.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  38. #38
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    The current bikes you're looking at are all cool and are gonna be a heap of fun. Don't worry about it. All the choices are good.



    Oh, i got from one of the comments here that the TOTL nukeproof was 3k. Same $2100 makes sense. Then i like the commencal geo more, and the nukeproof component spec. But i like them both a lot.
    2100$ USD haha...Canadian dollars, a bit different, but i got your point.

    Ok, so ill stop over-analysing the little quirks and all...BUT, service wise, forks especially. Any major difference in price or difficulty? One is FOX versus RockShox...

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ocnLogan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    797
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to *OneSpeed* again."

    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to scottzg again."

    I was in the same boat as the OP about 1.5-2 yrs ago. I love to analyze data, and get the "best" deals/things.

    The problem is that then, I had no idea what I did/did not like in a modern bike, as I had nothing to compare it with.

    Towards the end of my decision making process, I realized that since I didn't know enough to have a preference, that I should stick with something that was generally well reviewed, and suited to my purposes. And over time I'd figure out how well I "guessed".

    I ended up getting a really good deal on a fairly well regarded/reviewed full suspension bike (Kona Process 153 29'er).

    I've now owned my "new" bike for a bit over a year, and have been starting to understand what I want/don't want in my "next" bike, and have also attended a number of demo events, and ridden other buddies bikes a few times. Trying to figure out what reach/stack numbers, fork offsets, chainstay lengths, and HTA/STA numbers that I like. I think I'm starting to hone in on various aspects I'd like to change for "bike v-next", but thats after more than a year of riding.

    I think the Commencal, or the Nukeproof (or even its sibling, the Vitus Sentier models) all have really good reviews. I don't think you could go "wrong" with any of them honestly, and they are all solidly on the "value" side of the spectrum.

    So find which one you think fits your needs the best (which parts you do/do not care about, which ones you are ok upgrading/replacing on your own, or if you don't want to have to deal with installing it (like a dropper post)). Or maybe just which one is the color that makes you the most excited to go riding?

    Good luck deciding .

    EDIT: I will say that Rockshox stuff does seem a bit more user friendly in terms of repair. They actually publish videos on how to service them/manuals, etc. It may not be the deciding factor... but it may be "a" factor to consider, its true.

  40. #40
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    Ok, so ill stop over-analysing the little quirks and all...BUT, service wise, forks especially. Any major difference in price or difficulty? One is FOX versus RockShox...
    I think at this point it makes sense for the rider to do a lower leg and air spring service, and let a shop change the oil and seals. A fork rebuild is like 200$ and you can get many thousands of miles out damper fluid on a sealed damper.

    One is not dramatically more difficult to work on than the other.


    How tall are you?
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    I think at this point it makes sense for the rider to do a lower leg and air spring service, and let a shop change the oil and seals. A fork rebuild is like 200$ and you can get many thousands of miles out damper fluid on a sealed damper.

    One is not dramatically more difficult to work on than the other.


    How tall are you?
    like 170cm, didnt measure lately haha, but for reference, i fit the Medium size charts on pretty much all makes and models, which is roughly 5'7 to 5'11

  42. #42
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    like 170cm, didnt measure lately haha, but for reference, i fit the Medium size charts on pretty much all makes and models, which is roughly 5'7 to 5'11
    That's a point against the Scout, and especially against the 29er one. The scouts tend to have pretty long rear ends, and the 29er stack isn't listed, but it's going to be tall. The marin and commencal should be fine.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    13,027
    Height is one metric. But you need to measure your riding inseam. Which isn't pants inseam. This helps determine if you have a short or long torso. When you're on the seat riding you can imagine how your torso length affects the cockpit fit. 5'7". What inseam? Both in shoes.

  44. #44
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by eb1888 View Post
    Height is one metric. But you need to measure your riding inseam. Which isn't pants inseam. This helps determine if you have a short or long torso. When you're on the seat riding you can imagine how your torso length affects the cockpit fit. 5'7". What inseam? Both in shoes.
    as a hobbyist framebuilder and former pro fitter i don't find this to be super useful information when discussing mtbs. Especially when we're talking about someone's first bike. At best it just adds confusion.

    Heck, even when fitting road bikes it's counterproductive when a new cyclist is taking the measurements and making decisions.

    nope nope nope. It's not about cockpit fit at all. You've lost the plot. Let's not go here.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    my super effective, scientific and precise measurement skills tell me im 78-80cm inseam. Which puts me in Medium regardless...now torso size and all...that gets even more complicated...

    The more I ponder, the more I lean towards the Commencal, now which trim is the question (I dont plan on swapping parts left and right, maybe just tires...).

    EDIT: To make matters more complicated, Commencal Canada have this baby from 2019 on sale...cheaper than the HT Race...

    https://www.commencalcanada.com/clas...19-c2x26743321

    Or the AM 2019...https://www.commencalcanada.com/meta...de-c2x26747323

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ocnLogan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    797
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    my super effective, scientific and precise measurement skills tell me im 78-80cm inseam. Which puts me in Medium regardless...now torso size and all...that gets even more complicated...

    The more I ponder, the more I lean towards the Commencal, now which trim is the question (I dont plan on swapping parts left and right, maybe just tires...).

    EDIT: To make matters more complicated, Commencal Canada have this baby from 2019 on sale...cheaper than the HT Race...

    https://www.commencalcanada.com/clas...19-c2x26743321

    Or the AM 2019...https://www.commencalcanada.com/meta...de-c2x26747323
    I understand the appeal of finding a good deal (good components and a good price).

    But those full suspension bikes are nothing like the hardtails you were looking at. Are you sure that is what you are interested in, or are you just attracted to the price?

    If you were only looking at a hardtail because of price, they may be a good deal for you, but if you're looking either the hardtail experience, or riding more gentile rolling terrain, then these may not be what you're looking for, regardless of the good price.

    For what its worth, my buddy has that exact bike (Commencal Meta AM 29 in the second link, size large). He likes it, and also bought it because it was a good deal. But he'd been riding an entry level hardtail for about a year before he bought this, and felt that this fit his riding style/terrain we like better.

    He's happy with the whole bike, with the exception of the Guide T brakes. They have enough power, but they've been inconsistent for him, and he's had to bleed them something like 2-3 times already. Its also a very heavy bike, that pedals "ok" (not horrible, but certainly not great), if that matters to you. Its more of bike you ride if your goal is to get to the top of a fun descent, rather than one you want to ride on flat gravel trails.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    629
    Your a hard man to please.

    my local lbs sold a fluid ht 3 for 850 from 1199

    im telling you to make a couple calls.

    the fluid is available as a 27.5 and 29 in the medium and has a new frame for 2020. Cheaper by alot if you chase a deal. Ht1 is 1999.

    Good luck.

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    i think ill start with a HT, the Commencal Race 29 seems like the well-rounded, plenty equipped MTB to get me rolling for a good 2-3 years, and learn the quirks of it all. Then ill move to double suspension to keep hammering down faster once I get the basics and if I choose that path.

    And I think a HT also passes easier as a more regular everyday bike if I choose to ride it to work, whereas the other 2, although they are good deals, might not do me a favor long term and serve as all rounders.

    I will look into the Norco HT1 as well.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: ocnLogan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    797
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    i think ill start with a HT, the Commencal Race 29 seems like the well-rounded, plenty equipped MTB to get me rolling for a good 2-3 years, and learn the quirks of it all. Then ill move to double suspension to keep hammering down faster once I get the basics and if I choose that path.

    And I think a HT also passes easier as a more regular everyday bike if I choose to ride it to work, whereas the other 2, although they are good deals, might not do me a favor long term and serve as all rounders.

    I will look into the Norco HT1 as well.
    I wasn't necessarily trying to talk you out of something. Just pointing out that what you started the thread looking for, and what you just asked about were very different types of bikes. That isn't a bad thing, it more comes down to what you want to ride.

    A modern long travel 29'er "enduro" bike is good at many things. Its just not the same type of experience as you'd have on a hardtail, and as you noticed, they're usually more spendy as well. One would work for you as your "all around" bike, it just really depends on what trails you like.

    It may be worth trying to rent a bike from each category before you buy, just to see which you prefer (or demo rides, if any of those end up happening this year), and what trails you find most enjoyable.

    I think the Commencal AM HT would work fine for you, and you'd be happy with it for quite a while.

    I'm not trying to confuse you more, but, for what its worth, my "all rounder" bike here in Washington State, is a long travel 29'er, and it suits me just fine. But I also rode a 7yr old XC hardtail for months before that, so I knew what style of trails I enjoyed already.

    But for what its worth... so far I haven't really ridden any different trails than I did on my hardtail. I'm just going faster, and the feel is very different (and I'm hitting all the extra/bonus features, and also take the same bike to the lift access bike park).

  50. #50
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by ocnLogan View Post
    I wasn't necessarily trying to talk you out of something. Just pointing out that what you started the thread looking for, and what you just asked about were very different types of bikes. That isn't a bad thing, it more comes down to what you want to ride.

    A modern long travel 29'er "enduro" bike is good at many things. Its just not the same type of experience as you'd have on a hardtail, and as you noticed, they're usually more spendy as well. One would work for you as your "all around" bike, it just really depends on what trails you like.

    It may be worth trying to rent a bike from each category before you buy, just to see which you prefer (or demo rides, if any of those end up happening this year), and what trails you find most enjoyable.

    I think the Commencal AM HT would work fine for you, and you'd be happy with it for quite a while.

    I'm not trying to confuse you more, but, for what its worth, my "all rounder" bike here in Washington State, is a long travel 29'er, and it suits me just fine. But I also rode a 7yr old XC hardtail for months before that, so I knew what style of trails I enjoyed already.

    But for what its worth... so far I haven't really ridden any different trails than I did on my hardtail. I'm just going faster, and the feel is very different (and I'm hitting all the extra/bonus features, and also take the same bike to the lift access bike park).
    Hardtail it is for me, i wont start going left and right.
    Trails, ill probably enjoy light flowy terrain, with some small jumps and obstacles, so HT fits perfectly in that category and will be gunning them down easily.

    I am waiting on some info about the Nukeproof Scout 290 Expert, as i love the color and setup much more than the Commencal. And yes, the Nukeproof is a tad longer and higher for a Medium size, just checked all the Geo specs on both and its about 1cm both ways, so that wont be such a major impact in my opinion.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    18
    Ok gents, thanks for the info.
    I went and ordered the Commencal AM HT 29 Race, but now i last minute hesitate for 29 or the 27.5...what to do?

    or should i just shut up and learn and enjoy the 29er.

  52. #52
    mbtr member
    Reputation: scottzg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    6,240
    Quote Originally Posted by Slytechs View Post
    Ok gents, thanks for the info.
    I went and ordered the Commencal AM HT 29 Race, but now i last minute hesitate for 29 or the 27.5...what to do?

    or should i just shut up and learn and enjoy the 29er.
    The medium commencal isn't that big. Go with the 29er and initially set it up with the bars slammed so your first impression isn't 'whoa this is a barge.'
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
    Mikhail Kalashnikov

Similar Threads

  1. A decision between 3 carbon hardtail 29'ers
    By savechief in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 05-30-2014, 08:16 AM
  2. 29er XC Hardtail decision
    By Carm in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-09-2013, 03:38 AM
  3. Hardtail decision.
    By schlockinz in forum Downhill - Freeride
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-30-2012, 09:32 PM
  4. Finally Made a Hardtail Decision! (Modem Burner)
    By Golf Nut in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-14-2011, 07:30 AM
  5. Help , help... need a decision by Friday.
    By TX_Shifter in forum Bike and Frame discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-25-2007, 05:23 AM

Members who have read this thread: 143

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT MTBR

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2020 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.