Is it that hard?- Mtbr.com
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  1. #1
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    Is it that hard?

    I've been scratching my head as to why the top manufacturer's offer so many different versions of a particular model .
    Examples are everywhere.Is it that hard to get a well equipped lets say $2,500hard tail with decent components out of the box ?Instead there are 1 through 7 of each one with little bits on it! And the top model seems to still need better fork ,cassette,crank etc . Trek Roscoe ... so close but skinny legs? Sorry bit of vent
    If I'm the only one I will go sit in the corner.
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  2. #2
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    Not everyone wants to spend $2500 on a bike, I sure don't. Why are there 25 different noodles you can get at safeway? People like options.

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    Agreed options are nice.just thinking out loud in regards to the decisions manufacturers make when outfitting the models they offer up!

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  4. #4
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    When I strated the thought of spending more than $300 on a bike was "no way in hell"! But a $300 bike got me hooked, so options are good.
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  5. #5
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    $2600. Pike, E13 9-46 drivetrain, DT Swiss wheels, etc (Level T's aren't the best though)

    Is it that hard?-20181125_a.jpg

    I passed on the Kona Honzo for the same reasons you listed...over $2k with a shit fork.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    $2600. Pike, E13 9-46 drivetrain, DT Swiss wheels, etc (Level T's aren't the best though)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I passed on the Kona Honzo for the same reasons you listed...over $2k with a shit fork.
    It's been a long time since I bought a complete bike, but I got one from GG. Not only are their build kits solid at a good price, but they'll swap out any parts you don't want so when you get your rig it's ready to ride.
    Safe riding,

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  7. #7
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    I have not bought a complete mountain bike since 1996 and even then I had them upgrade the brakes.
    Formerly Travis Bickle

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  8. #8
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    Walk down the toilet paper isle at your local supermarket. Why the hell do we need 30 different types of TP?
    I only ride bikes to fill the time when I'm not skiing.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    It's been a long time since I bought a complete bike, but I got one from GG. Not only are their build kits solid at a good price, but they'll swap out any parts you don't want so when you get your rig it's ready to ride.
    Came here to say I wish more companies offered parts kits a la catre like GG does. It's a great system for getting parts that work for you conveniently in one place and at a good price. I hate buying a bike and having to sell 'new' parts off of it at a deep discount when they've specced something weird.
    Stache 7 --- Rigid Surly 1x1 B+ --- Dirt Drop CrossCheck

  10. #10
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    What is GG?

  11. #11
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    Guerilla Gravity

  12. #12
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    Top of the line hardtail is not 2.5 K. Try building up a frame.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by leeboh View Post
    Top of the line hardtail is not 2.5 K. Try building up a frame.
    lol, right? I'm building a Guerrilla Gravity Pedalhead right now. Frame's not super expensive as far as they go, but it's also not cheap. Bought mine used. New, they're $1200. I put a MRP Ribbon air on mine. New, $990. Over $2,000 right there and it doesn't even roll yet. Wheels will be over $1,000 when all done, and that's also not top of the line. They're nice, sure, but you can easily go over $2k on those, and probably over $3k.

    Though I do get at least a bit of where OP is coming from. It's kinda silly to have two models of a bike that aren't even $100 different in price. Might be more different on paper than when actually riding it. Back when I worked in shops and sold bikes, differences like that more often than not confused customers. So smartly run shops wouldn't stock ALL of the models that the mfr sold. They'd set up bigger gaps between the models they stocked so the differences between the models were more obvious and noticeable to less experienced/discerning customers.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    Walk down the toilet paper isle at your local supermarket. Why the hell do we need 30 different types of TP?
    Lol great example!

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy3220 View Post
    $2600. Pike, E13 9-46 drivetrain, DT Swiss wheels, etc (Level T's aren't the best though)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I passed on the Kona Honzo for the same reasons you listed...over $2k with a shit fork.
    Good example. Pike is garbage, e13 drivetrain is garbage, sram brakes are garbage. DT wheels sound good. I'd prefer a good-but-not-ideal frame over that shit. It's niche stuff and your preferences don't align with mine. With a hardtail the components are most of the value of the bike. If you're selling complete hardtails you're gonna be dealing with a lot of nerdy weirdos.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    It's niche stuff and your preferences don't align with mine.
    I don't care. It's not about you snowflake.

  17. #17
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    I too wonder about why brands offer the models they do, almost never offering what I'd find ideal, but manufacturers have a lot of knowledge about which of their products sells, why, and what their margins are. They put a lot of consideration into deciding how to structure their product offerings to maximize profit. By not offering exactly what I'd want, they're probably making more money than if they did.
    Do the math.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Rager View Post
    I too wonder about why brands offer the models they do, almost never offering what I'd find ideal, but manufacturers have a lot of knowledge about which of their products sells, why, and what their margins are. They put a lot of consideration into deciding how to structure their product offerings to maximize profit. By not offering exactly what I'd want, they're probably making more money than if they did.
    ^this
    Dealers are trying to max profit and increase sales and balancing that against customer satisfaction. Margins on cheaper stuff is likely often higher and manufactures incentivize certain components to make that more. Also, a lower total price for the bike makes the bike easier to sell.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    If you're selling complete hardtails you're gonna be dealing with a lot of nerdy weirdos.
    Too funny... thanks for the laugh!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottzg View Post
    Good example. Pike is garbage, e13 drivetrain is garbage, sram brakes are garbage. DT wheels sound good. I'd prefer a good-but-not-ideal frame over that shit. It's niche stuff and your preferences don't align with mine. With a hardtail the components are most of the value of the bike. If you're selling complete hardtails you're gonna be dealing with a lot of nerdy weirdos.
    That's all well and good and I agree about the Pike. However, with GG you can change out any of those things and get exactly what you want.

    I got an XT drivetrain and MRP Ribbon on mine for example.
    Riding Washington State singletrack since 1986

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by attaboy View Post
    ^this
    Dealers are trying to max profit and increase sales and balancing that against customer satisfaction. Margins on cheaper stuff is likely often higher and manufactures incentivize certain components to make that more. Also, a lower total price for the bike makes the bike easier to sell.
    All I know is that when you start getting into the upper end of the bike ranges with the top-end components, it seems like with a little patience you could do better building the bike from the frame up.

    That said the price jump from GX components to X0 components is ridiculous. I'd really like to have X0 on my bike, but I can't justify the price difference right now.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SqueakyWheel73 View Post
    All I know is that when you start getting into the upper end of the bike ranges with the top-end components, it seems like with a little patience you could do better building the bike from the frame up.
    If by "better" you mean a better build, then absolutely.

    If you mean "also less expensive" as well, then that's much harder to accomplish. It's easier if you've got parts bin stuff you can use without extra expense. It's easier if you find stuff you want in good shape on the used market. It's easier if you've got industry connections and can take advantage of discounts or pro deals. But I'm at the point where I'm not buying grey market/potentially counterfeit/stolen stuff just to save a few bucks. The risks are too high, and you're rewarding the shady operators. I'll buy online, maybe from Europe, but only from known 100% legit retailers. I've even bought Chinese carbon direct in the past, and it's been functional, but imo, not "good enough" for even the price I paid.

    So my solution for the bike I'm building now (a second mtb, so I'm still able to ride my other one) is to take my time and just buy stuff as I have the money for it. It's taking a long time, but I've bought the 3 most expensive items (wheels, frame, fork, in that order), and a few others at this point. So yeah, it's taking a good bit of patience to not just drop a bunch on my credit cards (which are paid off, so theoretically I could), but I'm not going to do that because that's not what the credit cards are for.

    If I didn't have a bike to ride in the meantime, it'd be a bit of a different scenario. I wouldn't want to spend years saving for a top end bike. I'd rather buy something much more modest and within my budget so I could walk home with a bike and start riding, not sitting around being patient.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curveball View Post
    That's all well and good and I agree about the Pike. However, with GG you can change out any of those things and get exactly what you want.

    I got an XT drivetrain and MRP Ribbon on mine for example.
    Oh, that's sweet! Smart way to sell those.

    Nice build.
    "Things that are complex are not useful, Things that are useful are simple."
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  24. #24
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    I build most of my bike using "last years" tech. You save a ton of money. The few completed I buy are never 100% what I want but I like tinkering and I sell the parts I didn't want.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by stixxs View Post
    I build most of my bike using "last years" tech. You save a ton of money. The few completed I buy are never 100% what I want but I like tinkering and I sell the parts I didn't want.
    I've done most of my builds this way. But I'm playing with a build using "the new hotness" parts in a couple spots. Got some I9 Hydra hubs for my wheel build. Also putting XTR M9100 on it. It's fun, but I don't have all the cash to buy everything all at once to get the bike on the trail asap, so I'm building it slowly, buying parts as I have the money to do so.

    Hopefully I can get the drivetrain parts ordered next, now that I've got all the parts for the wheels.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold View Post
    I've done most of my builds this way. But I'm playing with a build using "the new hotness" parts in a couple spots. Got some I9 Hydra hubs for my wheel build. Also putting XTR M9100 on it. It's fun, but I don't have all the cash to buy everything all at once to get the bike on the trail asap, so I'm building it slowly, buying parts as I have the money to do so.

    Hopefully I can get the drivetrain parts ordered next, now that I've got all the parts for the wheels.
    If you go too slow, your "new hotness" bits are going to end up being "last year's tech" by the time your out riding!

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JScoot View Post
    If you go too slow, your "new hotness" bits are going to end up being "last year's tech" by the time your out riding!
    Lol, true. I have the bulk of the money spent already, so the rest of it won't take nearly as long.

    But, that was actually part of the reason I chose m9100. It's BECAUSE there is a good chance that by the time I need to replace the cassette, xt will be using the same freehub driver. There is an element of future proofing to it. Won't last forever, but it'll get me by for awhile, at least.

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Train Wreck View Post
    Not everyone wants to spend $2500 on a bike, I sure don't. Why are there 25 different noodles you can get at safeway? People like options.
    Being a Jersey Italian, I take offense to this! You use different shapes of pasta depending on the type of sauce or gravy you plan on using. If you have a nice pesto or vinaigrette, then you'll want to use something like gemelli, fusilli, or farfalle. If you have a cream, or cheese sauce, you would want to use something with holes, like rigatoni, or shells, or elbows. Hearty meat sauce? Use tagliatelle, or bucatini!

    But I digress.

    Choices are good IMO. Keeps things interesting.
    The cake is a lie.

  29. #29
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    ^^^ a good analogy for the mtb market nowadays. So many travels, geos, wheel sizes, tire widths, and combinations thereof. Each is ideal for something.
    Do the math.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kubikeman View Post
    Being a Jersey Italian, I take offense to this! You use different shapes of pasta depending on the type of sauce or gravy you plan on using. If you have a nice pesto or vinaigrette, then you'll want to use something like gemelli, fusilli, or farfalle. If you have a cream, or cheese sauce, you would want to use something with holes, like rigatoni, or shells, or elbows. Hearty meat sauce? Use tagliatelle, or bucatini!

    But I digress.

    Choices are good IMO. Keeps things interesting.
    Now I am hungry! : p

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  31. #31
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    A 5010c XTR reserve is $9500 and comes with a POS turd fox 34. Top end builds are the worst.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    A 5010c XTR reserve is $9500 and comes with a POS turd fox 34. Top end builds are the worst.
    And you can get 3 super awesome bikes for $9500.
    Surly Krampus
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldHouseMan View Post
    Walk down the toilet paper isle at your local supermarket. Why the hell do we need 30 different types of TP?
    Because the market is not driven by "need". It is driven by demand. If you want to change this, look into the proverb, "Sometimes the solution is more deleterious than the problem". Command economies always fail.

  34. #34
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    Also have to realize that the “brands” all have partnerships they work through. So while companies like GG can essentially get you anything you want and build a bike for you, they can present better discounts for a build with one of their partners vs. another non partnered company.

    That’s why you mainly see FOX and RS stuff on the bigger brands, they work through their partnerships to buy down inventory.


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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frs1661 View Post
    Came here to say I wish more companies offered parts kits a la catre like GG does. It's a great system for getting parts that work for you conveniently in one place and at a good price. I hate buying a bike and having to sell 'new' parts off of it at a deep discount when they've specced something weird.
    some of the BMX places offer kits....buy a frame, and then get a parts kit of good aftermarket parts to add to frame...I am thinking of doing this this summer

    I can say that I have bought completes - just 2 - b/c I like to start wit ha base, and then add on. The feel; fit; and geo of the frame to me is the only thing that is "permanent";
    Go practice. Figure it out. - Fleas

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  36. #36
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    All bike builds are done to a price point. Each Manufacture works to create a frame and then parts bin the bike to a dollar level. The dollar level is determined by what they think the market needs and NX vs GX vs SLX etc all depends on manufactured prices for OEM buys. Deals are often set by the big names and they spec the groups to hit their intend profit margins/ consumer desires that drive sales. One spec may go with XO1 derailurer and NX shifter just to make ti look higher spec than GX on both.

    if you don't like the build spec then you can always swap parts or go with a different brand. Or buy frame only get exactly what you want. Last year I build my "dream bike" by getting cheapest carbon frame and then swapping everthing except the stem, seat post collar and rear shock. Everything else was changed from my other bike or deals I was able to get. Used the take off parts on the local resale of the old bike. Recouped some costs and given all that came up spend far less than a closely spec'ed new bike. Of course that will not work all the time.
    Joe
    '18 Specialized Epic 29", Vassago Verhauen SS 29", '13 Santa Cruz Solo 27.5", XC, AM, blah blah blah.. I just ride.

  37. #37
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    This is not a top of the line bike, but I think it's a really good value. Decent drive train, good geo and at its price overall a good entry level hard tail.

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