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  1. #1
    NedwannaB
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    Is AM really the new Trail?

    In trying to narrow down and define a bike for this forum since there's a pretty big spread of bikes between "XC---->FR/DH"....

    With the new(er) "modern geometry" nowadays I'm thinking for riders in the "median" size range i.e. 5'-5" to 5'-9" this would be a pretty good setup, albeit regional trail conditions would warrant some adjustment either way:

    27.5/27.5+ wheels
    2.4r w/2.5-2.6f tires,2.6r 2.8f on +
    120r/130-140fr suspension travel
    ~750mm bars
    125-150 dropper(frame allowance)

    Where's everyone at on this topic?

    Discuss.
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  2. #2
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    29" for all but truly shrimp sized dudes, otherwise right on the money.







    Please don't cry, I was just jokin, kinda.

  3. #3
    No good in rock gardens..
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    5'7", ride my 150mm 27.5 bike everywhere.

    IMO "AM" is trail riding.

    An "AM" bike that can't climb or a rider who won't climb isn't riding "AM" as I've yet to see a single "mountain" that doesn't have uphill sections....

    AM / trail and even XC are IMO loosely defined and closely related.
    Less isn't MOAR

  4. #4
    NedwannaB
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    You posted in wrong forum...
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  5. #5
    NedwannaB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideknob View Post
    5'7", ride my 150mm 27.5 bike everywhere.

    IMO "AM" is trail riding.

    An "AM" bike that can't climb or a rider who won't climb isn't riding "AM" as I've yet to see a single "mountain" that doesn't have uphill sections....

    AM / trail and even XC are IMO loosely defined and closely related.
    I agree. When I ride it's up/down all over the mountain!
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  6. #6
    nvphatty
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    I agree. When I ride it's up/down all over the mountain!
    and aside from a true dedicated DH ride, all of the aforementioned will suffice.

  7. #7
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    Is new Trail really the old Enduro?

  8. #8
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    I think the biggest difference is that an all mountain bike will have fantastic small bump compliance and a trail bike will be stiffer and more pedal efficient. They will both handle big drops the same, but the all mountain bike will handle the rocky rooty stuff much better. The trail bike will still be fun in the flats but you will get worn out faster if all you do is climb and descend all day.

  9. #9
    NedwannaB
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    Quote Originally Posted by party_wagon View Post
    I think the biggest difference is that an all mountain bike will have fantastic small bump compliance and a trail bike will be stiffer and more pedal efficient. They will both handle big drops the same, but the all mountain bike will handle the rocky rooty stuff much better. The trail bike will still be fun in the flats but you will get worn out faster if all you do is climb and descend all day.
    Cool. So I should add "remove 1-2 tokens from fork and have remote lock-out on fork"? Sounds like it's narrowed down to a Scott Genius then. But that blows my travel range out of the park! :/
    Wait whuuut, who did he tell you that!?!?....

  10. #10
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    Think about/ ask, what bike is best to ride all of the trails on the mountains you are going to ride. There's a ton of great choices, but maybe not the right ones.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerberus75 View Post
    Think about/ ask, what bike is best to ride all of the trails on the mountains you are going to ride. There's a ton of great choices, but maybe not the right ones.
    Couldn't agree more. 5'4" and for me and my riding style of technical single track, rocks, roots, climbing and descending I went with 2017 Fuel EX-8 27.5+, 140mm, 100mm dropper (wish I could lower it a bit but can't due to seat tube bend). I guess if I had the ability to test in person every bike I have looked at online I might have chosen differently but I don't know what I don't know. I only know what I had available to me and have no regrets. Sure I could have gone with a Remedy but at some point you just have to make a decision and go with it. Choosing a mountain bike should be the worst problem I have to stress about in my life lol.

  12. #12
    Keep on Rockin...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideknob View Post
    5'7", ride my 150mm 27.5 bike everywhere.

    IMO "AM" is trail riding.

    An "AM" bike that can't climb or a rider who won't climb isn't riding "AM" as I've yet to see a single "mountain" that doesn't have uphill sections....

    AM / trail and even XC are IMO loosely defined and closely related.

    IMO AM is trail riding with air time.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    IMO AM is trail riding with air time.
    And poorer line choices

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMac47 View Post
    Cool. So I should add "remove 1-2 tokens from fork and have remote lock-out on fork"? Sounds like it's narrowed down to a Scott Genius then. But that blows my travel range out of the park! :/
    I would walk into my local bike shop and tell them I want a bike for riding all of the local trails. It may be a 160mm Enduro bike or it may be a 120mm trail bike. It may also be something in-between. It may also depend on how you set up the suspension. I see it as most trail bikes are in the 120-140 range and am bikes are in the 140-170 range.

  15. #15
    Bipolar roller
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    I think AM and Trial are pretty much synonymous. For a bike to be an AM bike or trail bike it needs to be able to handle all the trails on the mountain; tech ups, steep downs, drops and lots of chunk.

    Xc bikes may be able to handle much of what a AM/Trail bike can, but might really struggle in spots like steep/tech descents, really rocky sections, drops and at speed on rough terrain.

    Also, 29er for a AM/Trail bike for sure.
    Get out of the gutter and onto the mountain top.
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  16. #16
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    XC= pedals well and a skilled rider can ride it just about anywhere, but cant just bomb. Trail = pedals well but adds some plush to riding. Longs days in the saddle are more cush.
    AM= ride it all and with the fitness/skill level it can go everywhere all day.
    Enduro= ride it everywhere all day and bomb downhill. More bike than most people need. Allows one to carry more speed than some sections were meant to be and also forgiving enough to blow corners and make all trails straight fall lines.
    DH/FR= nobody pedals uphill without momentum or gravity. These trails can be ridden with an enduro bike by a skilled rider.

  17. #17
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    There's obviously a lot of overlap between categories, and a drift for each new model to bigger tires and bigger travel. Is the 120mm bike an XC bike when it has 29er tires? Is it then a trail bike when it has 27.5+ tires and is otherwise identical?

  18. #18
    Yeet so hard
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherwin24 View Post
    XC= pedals well and a skilled rider can ride it just about anywhere, but cant just bomb. Trail = pedals well but adds some plush to riding. Longs days in the saddle are more cush.
    AM= ride it all and with the fitness/skill level it can go everywhere all day.
    Enduro= ride it everywhere all day and bomb downhill. More bike than most people need. Allows one to carry more speed than some sections were meant to be and also forgiving enough to blow corners and make all trails straight fall lines.
    DH/FR= nobody pedals uphill without momentum or gravity. These trails can be ridden with an enduro bike by a skilled rider.
    /thread
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  19. #19
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    We've been having this discussion since the AM & Enduro designations were given to mountain bikes. People who have come into the sport after All Mountain replaced most of the Freeride identity except for "Big Mountain Freeride" have the mindset that "All Mountain" means just traversing trail all over the mountain.

    When a MFGR uses the terminology All Mountain, they're thinking something along the lines of a long travel bike that can still be pedaled somewhat efficiently but take a real beating. It's good to have the segmented descriptions no matter how many people want to "call it whatever they want" because it makes it more likely that a MFGR will build and spec a complete bike in a manner that will fit a certain "group" of people's riding styles and trail networks to be able to give that group the best bike for the money instead of having to build it ourselves.

    Since Specialized bicycles are some of the best known to the general public, I like to use them as an example for the genre's of mountain biking.



    XC - Short travel, long and stretched out, super-efficient. XC courses are more respectable than they used to be. XC used to be a joke. Used to be only groomed / buff lame-o courses. Now XC competitions have a bit of Gnar thrown in the mix. Actual mountain biking. Think Epic FSR.

    Trail - is like timid All Mountain riding. It's covering the entire spectrum with little to no air-time. No big drops. No big doubles...etc. Still efficient, but more relaxed than an XC bike with longer travel. Think Stumpjumper FSR.

    AM / Enduro to most MFGR are sisters - The "All Mountain" designation hit the scene prior to the "Enduro" terminology if I remember correctly, but they pretty much go hand in hand. Enduro terminology became really popular when Super-D racing became popular. Enduro is a great terminology to describe that style of racing. Basically: Riding the whole spectrum from climbing to descending with a penchant for aggressive DH, 4-5ft drops (sometimes more, sometimes less), doubles, shredding with attitude. Very aggressive riding. Think Enduro FSR.

    Freeride / Big mountain FR - This one has changed a bit since the development of modern All Mountain bikes. We used to have 6-8" travel bikes that were bombproof, but they had seat tube angles that would allow you to actually raise the saddle and pedal if need be. If you look at a Specialized Demo...that freakin' seat tube was designed to keep the saddle low and the bike pointed downhill. Basically a DH bike nowadays. It's really hard to find an old-school freeride bike because All Mountain bikes have become more and more capable and trail builders for the most part are building landing transitions more wisely. Look at a last-genre Santa Cruz Bullit. That bike could be built into a 28-30lbs pedal'able bike that still had Rockshox Totem and 7-8" travel for doing huge obstacles...road gaps...20' cliff drops, etc.


    So when someone tells me that the terminology "All Mountain" is what the title sounds like...that's not necessarily true. Marketing and racing generally drive the availability and development of sports like these. The riders have to submit to the titles and designations to some degree because if you walked into a bike shop and said I need to get an All Mountain bike for my local terrain...they will try to sell you a Nomad or Enduro when your intentions were to get a bike that just covers your local trails well...climbing / descending...no jumping or dropping. You may best be served with a Stumpy FSR or even an Epic with a shorter stem and taller bars to churn out miles all over the spectrum.

    But if we all stick to the intended designations, it really segments the groups of bike styles so they can offer more to us in our appropriate riding styles and trail networks.



    In most cases, the intimidation of our trails to our eyes somewhat drives us to buy a bike that's bigger than our trails. I know that here in the Midwest, we've got a metric ton of rocks and boulders to traverse, but we have no real DH to speak of. We can't let gravity pull us across the big bumps. We have to basically pedal, pedal, pedal all the time. There's no fire road climbs to sweet DH gnar. So I'll be the first to admit that something like a Stumpy FSR (or fattie) or a Pivit Mach 429 (or plus) would be about the perfect all-around bike for our region as long as you're actually doing all of the 3-5' drops and bigger jumps. If you aren't taking part in that aspect of our local trails, the Specialized Epic 29'er would likely be the best trail slayer around here.

    We like to think we need an Enduro or Nomad...but all we really need for 90% of our trails would be a "trail bike".

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sideknob View Post
    AM / trail and even XC are IMO loosely defined and closely related.

    This is wisdom. They are indeed very different, but quite blurred at the intersections.

    XC - I'm gonna get there as fast as I can, but I'm picking my line carefully and I'm not jumping off that!
    Trail -I'll get there when I get there, my line will straighten out a bit.
    AM - I'm gonna get there fast, blast through the line, and I'm taking the shortcut and jumping off that!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by chelboed View Post
    We've been having this discussion since the AM & Enduro designations were given to mountain bikes. People who have come into the sport after All Mountain replaced most of the Freeride identity except for "Big Mountain Freeride" have the mindset that "All Mountain" means just traversing trail all over the mountain.

    When a MFGR uses the terminology All Mountain, they're thinking something along the lines of a long travel bike that can still be pedaled somewhat efficiently but take a real beating. It's good to have the segmented descriptions no matter how many people want to "call it whatever they want" because it makes it more likely that a MFGR will build and spec a complete bike in a manner that will fit a certain "group" of people's riding styles and trail networks to be able to give that group the best bike for the money instead of having to build it ourselves.

    Since Specialized bicycles are some of the best known to the general public, I like to use them as an example for the genre's of mountain biking.



    XC - Short travel, long and stretched out, super-efficient. XC courses are more respectable than they used to be. XC used to be a joke. Used to be only groomed / buff lame-o courses. Now XC competitions have a bit of Gnar thrown in the mix. Actual mountain biking. Think Epic FSR.

    Trail - is like timid All Mountain riding. It's covering the entire spectrum with little to no air-time. No big drops. No big doubles...etc. Still efficient, but more relaxed than an XC bike with longer travel. Think Stumpjumper FSR.

    AM / Enduro to most MFGR are sisters - The "All Mountain" designation hit the scene prior to the "Enduro" terminology if I remember correctly, but they pretty much go hand in hand. Enduro terminology became really popular when Super-D racing became popular. Enduro is a great terminology to describe that style of racing. Basically: Riding the whole spectrum from climbing to descending with a penchant for aggressive DH, 4-5ft drops (sometimes more, sometimes less), doubles, shredding with attitude. Very aggressive riding. Think Enduro FSR.

    Freeride / Big mountain FR - This one has changed a bit since the development of modern All Mountain bikes. We used to have 6-8" travel bikes that were bombproof, but they had seat tube angles that would allow you to actually raise the saddle and pedal if need be. If you look at a Specialized Demo...that freakin' seat tube was designed to keep the saddle low and the bike pointed downhill. Basically a DH bike nowadays. It's really hard to find an old-school freeride bike because All Mountain bikes have become more and more capable and trail builders for the most part are building landing transitions more wisely. Look at a last-genre Santa Cruz Bullit. That bike could be built into a 28-30lbs pedal'able bike that still had Rockshox Totem and 7-8" travel for doing huge obstacles...road gaps...20' cliff drops, etc.


    So when someone tells me that the terminology "All Mountain" is what the title sounds like...that's not necessarily true. Marketing and racing generally drive the availability and development of sports like these. The riders have to submit to the titles and designations to some degree because if you walked into a bike shop and said I need to get an All Mountain bike for my local terrain...they will try to sell you a Nomad or Enduro when your intentions were to get a bike that just covers your local trails well...climbing / descending...no jumping or dropping. You may best be served with a Stumpy FSR or even an Epic with a shorter stem and taller bars to churn out miles all over the spectrum.

    But if we all stick to the intended designations, it really segments the groups of bike styles so they can offer more to us in our appropriate riding styles and trail networks.



    In most cases, the intimidation of our trails to our eyes somewhat drives us to buy a bike that's bigger than our trails. I know that here in the Midwest, we've got a metric ton of rocks and boulders to traverse, but we have no real DH to speak of. We can't let gravity pull us across the big bumps. We have to basically pedal, pedal, pedal all the time. There's no fire road climbs to sweet DH gnar. So I'll be the first to admit that something like a Stumpy FSR (or fattie) or a Pivit Mach 429 (or plus) would be about the perfect all-around bike for our region as long as you're actually doing all of the 3-5' drops and bigger jumps. If you aren't taking part in that aspect of our local trails, the Specialized Epic 29'er would likely be the best trail slayer around here.

    We like to think we need an Enduro or Nomad...but all we really need for 90% of our trails would be a "trail bike".

    Makes sense but sort of disagree on a point...

    AM and Enduro.


    Enduro bikes are morphing into mini-DH rigs. You can still pedal them to the top but its not fun. I think the Enduro racing format does not entail much single track, techy climbing. Probably mostly climbing dirt roads just to get to the top. Those bikes have a much more DH bias.

    AM bikes, to me, are fun both going up and down. They can get you up any trail a XC bike can, and it will be just as fun, just a bit slower.


    Trail vs AM - riding style (not bikes). As I posted above, I think of AM as Trail plus air time. As far as riding style goes I do find that is a very obvious defining factor amongst riders. You will have a group of very skilled, fast riders, but come time for a drop or a sizable jump, and you will see the group split.

    Trail vs AM - bikes. Now that trail bikes are so competent, I don't think there is much difference between the two. The big exception would be tire choice. Trail guy will run something like Ardents or Ikons. AM guy will be on Minions. But both can still have the same bike.


    Just my opinion, but I think its right.

  22. #22
    the half breed devil
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    Quote Originally Posted by EatsDirt View Post
    Is new Trail really the old Enduro?
    which leads me to ask was the old enduro really the old "freeride"?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Makes sense but sort of disagree on a point...

    AM and Enduro.


    Enduro bikes are morphing into mini-DH rigs. You can still pedal them to the top but its not fun. I think the Enduro racing format does not entail much single track, techy climbing. Probably mostly climbing dirt roads just to get to the top. Those bikes have a much more DH bias.

    AM bikes, to me, are fun both going up and down. They can get you up any trail a XC bike can, and it will be just as fun, just a bit slower.


    Trail vs AM - riding style (not bikes). As I posted above, I think of AM as Trail plus air time. As far as riding style goes I do find that is a very obvious defining factor amongst riders. You will have a group of very skilled, fast riders, but come time for a drop or a sizable jump, and you will see the group split.

    Trail vs AM - bikes. Now that trail bikes are so competent, I don't think there is much difference between the two. The big exception would be tire choice. Trail guy will run something like Ardents or Ikons. AM guy will be on Minions. But both can still have the same bike.


    Just my opinion, but I think its right.

    To me an AM bike has decent travel, active enough suspension to do techy climbs pedals well enough and can ride most trails, so not to long,low slack to get hung up on the climbs. A lot but not all trail bikes are starting to fill this category. Most enduro bike's likke you mentioned, not set up for technical climbs.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Makes sense but sort of disagree on a point...

    AM and Enduro.


    Enduro bikes are morphing into mini-DH rigs. You can still pedal them to the top but its not fun. I think the Enduro racing format does not entail much single track, techy climbing. Probably mostly climbing dirt roads just to get to the top. Those bikes have a much more DH bias.

    AM bikes, to me, are fun both going up and down. They can get you up any trail a XC bike can, and it will be just as fun, just a bit slower.


    Trail vs AM - riding style (not bikes). As I posted above, I think of AM as Trail plus air time. As far as riding style goes I do find that is a very obvious defining factor amongst riders. You will have a group of very skilled, fast riders, but come time for a drop or a sizable jump, and you will see the group split.

    Trail vs AM - bikes. Now that trail bikes are so competent, I don't think there is much difference between the two. The big exception would be tire choice. Trail guy will run something like Ardents or Ikons. AM guy will be on Minions. But both can still have the same bike.


    Just my opinion, but I think its right.
    Sounds reasonable.

  25. #25
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    The confusing thing is I'll read statements like 'that's not really an AM bike, it's a trail bike' or 'enduro bikes really aren't made for climbing and an AM bike has to be a good climber'... So what bikes do you think epitomizes what an AM bike is?

  26. #26
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    Does it have a 160mm fork? If no, its not an AM bike. Everything less is a trail bike until you hit 100, then its an xc bike.

  27. #27
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    Some see it as the new XC needs a 120mm fork. I demoed a 2017 Scott XC with 110mm rear & 120mm fork.
    oops I wasn't clipped in

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Does it have a 160mm fork? If no, its not an AM bike. Everything less is a trail bike until you hit 100, then its an xc bike.
    So basically what manufactures are categorizing as enduro?

  29. #29
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    Pretty much. Its not really any different. Enduro is really just a race format, and AM bikes tend to be the best type of bike for the job. Enduro got so popular, it kinda took over AM.

    I think we've all understood all along that "AM" means bikes with 160mm forks. People just hate the marketing BS, and thats kinda understandable... but still, I think its well understood what AM and enduro is.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Pivot View Post
    Pretty much. Its not really any different. Enduro is really just a race format, and AM bikes tend to be the best type of bike for the job. Enduro got so popular, it kinda took over AM.

    I think we've all understood all along that "AM" means bikes with 160mm forks. People just hate the marketing BS, and thats kinda understandable... but still, I think its well understood what AM and enduro is.
    Gotta disagree, for reasons I posted above.

    All mountain means the bike is fun to pedal on all the mountain. Up, down, all around. I'm talking steep, techy climbs. All mountain and trail bikes are pretty close to the same thing these days.

    Most bikes that riders are using for the enduro race format are just not that fun to climb.

    Easily recognized examples would be Transition's 2018 Scout vs the Patrol.

    The Scout, under a skilled rider, with proper tires, would make a great AM bike. It would be fun going both up and down the mountain. Even on flats. My current rig has the same 150/130 set up with burly tires. I have a blast both climbing and descending on that bike.

    The Patrol, would be much more suited to Enduro racing, and I'd refer to that as an Enduro bike. I don't think it would be very fun to pedal up hill, on repeated techy, steep climbs. Its made to plow through sustained chunk at high speed.

  31. #31
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    The biggest thing I've noticed is that Enduro has stretched most the bikes that would fit in the AM category. Bikes like the Knolly Warden, Turner RFX Canfield Balance for 27.5 and the Riot(pushing trail bike) and a older Endro 29er fit in better with shorter wheel base.

  32. #32
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    Some bikes are better than others, but that doesn't make one more or less "enduro".

    There's tons of AM bikes. Some of them suck. Remember bikes with 160mm forks and 68-69 degree head tubes? That sucked! It was still an am bike. Today's trail bikes are faster downhill and uphill, but they're still not AM bikes. Nothing about the class means the bike has to be good or useful for anything, just needs to be designed around a 160mm fork.

    Some of our trail bikes today outperform freeride bikes from just a few years ago. If we keep renaming stuff every time it changes it starts getting silly.

    AM bikes never really climbed well. People just slog them uphills. It's the big fork. We have the same tall front end today that we always did.

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